Open Mike 04/06/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 4th, 2017 - 196 comments
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196 comments on “Open Mike 04/06/2017”

  1. Muttonbird 1

    Surely if the Nats have forced Auckland City Council to bring in a congestion charge, Auckland people will punish them heavily in September.

    That the ordinary workers of Auckland will have to pay for the years of infrastructure underspend while sitting in gridlock should make them very angry.

    The Labour campaign team should be looking at this very closely.

    http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/06/government-to-make-road-pricing-announcement-phil-goff.html

    • James 1.1

      I cannot wait for labour to come out and say that they will oppose it and that they will not implement if hey are in power.

      • Ed 1.1.1

        Troll

      • Muttonbird 1.1.2

        I’d be happy with that. Labour is in the business of helping low income earners not punishing them, and helping Auckland address it’s infrastructure problem. National – not so much.

        • James 1.1.2.1

          You may be happy with that – but do you think labour actually *would* do it ?

          • Muttonbird 1.1.2.1.1

            They believe in a much closer relationship between central and local government and unlike the current government seek ways to support Auckland and actually have a vision for the future.

            For them to adopt a congestion tax penalising workers would be out of character.

      • Ad 1.1.3

        I think Labour will support it.
        They will view it as pushing more people onto public transport.

        Also if it’s done so that it’s operative from 6am to 7pm, it won’t affect shift workers – who are a core Labour support base.

        We could easily see this rolled out as an extension of RUC.
        Or of the HOP card.

        I don’t think it’s going to be too hard to get through either politically or logistically.

    • saveNZ 1.2

      Of course the Natz and their players want a congestion charge. They have already moved the poor out further out of the city, now they want to charge them to come in.

      Meanwhile the rich in central Auckland can sit pretty, and have less riff raft around, as well as benefit by increased immigration driving up house prices and more cars, holiday highways to their baches, no increases in regional petrol fuel that actually targets those on the roads including trucks which are increasingly taking over the roads, and no public transport.

      Perfect. For the elite who want everything to go their way, and the cronies that support them.

      London has a congestion charge (and they have the decency to have good public transport). Didn’t work. Too many people, equals too many cars and it’s actually just a type of class warfare to benefit the rich.

      • saveNZ 1.2.1

        More talk of congestion charges reminds me of Len Brown and how he was outed by the honey trap that took him down and his ideas with him.

        Looking back at the case of Colin Craig and Slater. Same thing. Seems odd to me that Craig who never actually had an affair with his press secretary and friend of creep Jordon Williams, somehow as a ‘communications expert’ failed to say in any writing to reprocessed christian Craig, Sorry I’m but NOT interested, instead ‘hug, hug’ txts, until she derailed the election to Nationals benefit by having a press conference against Craig.

        So creepy Jordon, gets 1.3 mill compensation.
        Press secretary gets 100,000’s in compensation.
        National knock out conservatives and gallop home in the election.
        So called bankrupt Slater has his $12,000 lawyers per day to get more money from Craig.

        As far as I can see Craig’s biggest crime is that he is a fool, easily manipulated and has the world’s worst poetry. It’s not a crime to be interested in someone if that someone has not said no.

        Meanwhile, Key who’s harassment victim did repeatedly and publicly ask him to stop pulling her hair gets no penalty.

        Brash and god knows how many politicians are really cheating on their wives.

        The roast busters youths who actually did statutory rape girls as well as posting about it, get off.

        Ex cop Richards is now a lawyer and got off the rape charges against Louise Nicholas.

        So it seems to me, that the guilty get off and the myths that get those off, like Colin Craig situation where it’s hard to see what the fuck the harassment is about.

        Press secretary is a communications expert, if she didn’t want Colin Craig’s attention, a little email saying “No, thanks Colin, I’m just not in to you’ would have been a start, instead of hug, hug and a press conference to National Party’s favour a few days out from an election.

    • Draco T Bastard 1.3

      Personally, I’ll all for high charges for driving. It is, after all highly inefficient and simply unsustainable and thus should be priced accordingly while we’re still using a market system.

      Of course, we should have good, free public transport first.

      • Muttonbird 1.3.1

        Yes, that is the catch in NZ, and Auckland particularly. No vision on public transport for some years now.

      • Foreign waka 1.3.2

        Draco, in comparison to overseas cities in particular public transport in NZ is the pits.
        Consider this – Test case in real time:
        Location Wellington and surrounds.
        Start Point Titahi bay. Using public transport via Porirua train station wanting to go Petone.
        OK, here we go. Factor in 15 min getting up earlier due to buses only going every 10-15 min. (not all day though) So if you miss one, to have a chance to get the next.
        Getting the train to Wellington city, right to the end of the line as there is no other way to change track (at least another 15 min add on). Then take another train (hopefully not missed in all that rigmarole) and go back north (where you just came from) but this time going Petone.
        Total time, if all goes by plan: at least 1hrs,15 min if not more.
        Frustration point: Regular outage of trains with very little notice – average every 4 weeks.
        Now, lets do the same by car – going Titahi Bay to Petone via main road and motorway to Petone Train station.
        Total time: 20 min. Frustration point, drivers who obviously have no license otherwise the would for a starter turn on the lights when its dark.
        Need I say more?
        If you go to cities like Paris, Vienna, Berlin, London (Main centers) you would actually not need a car. Naturally, for those who prescribe car free cities, those are the places where the plan is feasible. NZ – not so much unless you want to bring the economy to its knees.
        What is doable is to get all the truck loads up and down the country off the road and on freight trains, It would save a lot of wear and tear repairs, petrol or worst, diesel fumes.

        • Draco T Bastard 1.3.2.1

          So, you’re saying that it’s all bad and therefore we shouldn’t do anything to make it better?

          • Foreign waka 1.3.2.1.1

            Not at all, just saying that the investment needed is so great that it will take 2 generations to get where other cities (plural) are. In other words, long term planning but we have only short sighted politicians and vested interests.
            As I have pointed out, a good start would be to get all port to destination cargo onto trains. Perhaps that mode of transport might make enough money to invest in more and better tracks etc…
            I also doubt that such a large undertaking should be carried financially by one group of people or taken on in a very short period of time. It is that suggestion or plan that actually puts a full stop to any movement because of the implications of funding.
            As of right now, just getting 99% reliability and would be a winner.
            Rules for a successful transformation : Realism, feasibility, finance and implementation. And that without a constant “consultation process” that sucks all the money out of the project.
            It is certainly not a No 8 wire deal.

            • Draco T Bastard 1.3.2.1.1.1

              Rules for a successful transformation : Realism, feasibility, finance and implementation.

              We know that better PT is feasible – lots of examples world wide and we know finance isn’t a problem for nation states.

              Given all that I suspect the real problem there is the use of the word realism as it more than likely refers to being realistic within capitalist confines which are delusional.

              In other words, building better PT is a political problem and not one based in reality.

              • Foreign waka

                You are trying to be antagonistic?
                I am all for public transport being originally from a city that truly does not require a car and riding a bike is absolute bliss – honest.
                But I also can see the problematic side of getting that kind of infrastructure in any NZ city in place. And belief you me, it is extraordinary expensive. Even so, the logistic, geographic and seismic issues are adding to the dimension and NZ would need the best planners to get this off the ground. Not only that, but commitment over the next 20 years or more years.
                To make it really fascinating, the layout of the cities has to change. Infrastructure means supply, health and entertainment has to be reachable at relative ease and housing laid out so that even a 70 year old could deal with the necessities whilst walking or taking a bus.
                And this is the problem in a nutshell: The whole idea of how a city works needs to change and with the current 70’s idea of lets drive everywhere it is a bit of an issue.
                NZ needs professionals who can handle the job and stick with it and a guarantied finance plan. All of that outside the constant party politicking …. good luck.
                Just to make a point, this ought not to be a matter to punish drivers. Driving a good car is absolute fun as long as there are none of the – license what do I need if for- on the road.
                It is a matter of having the citizen agree on a plan of transmission that is not a declaration of war on one party or the other.
                A lot of work needs to be done, is NZ ready for it?

                • Draco T Bastard

                  And this is the problem in a nutshell: The whole idea of how a city works needs to change and with the current 70’s idea of lets drive everywhere it is a bit of an issue.

                  True.

                  But I also can see the problematic side of getting that kind of infrastructure in any NZ city in place. And belief you me, it is extraordinary expensive. Even so, the logistic, geographic and seismic issues are adding to the dimension and NZ would need the best planners to get this off the ground. Not only that, but commitment over the next 20 years or more years.

                  It’s only problematic because of the politics. That goes for the commitment as well especially for National who will do what makes the most profit for private enterprise rather than the best option.

                  It’s not really expensive either. It doesn’t take that many people to guide a boring machine through the earth. And it wouldn’t even be that expensive if we built a couple of boring machines for ourselves either. This is what happens when you consider the economy in terms of resources available rather than in terms of money and profit – you realise that things aren’t as expensive as the profiteers tell you and that we really can afford to do stuff that they don’t want done – like good PT.

                  You really do have to ask why the profiteers don’t want these thing that would make our lives better.

                  Just to make a point, this ought not to be a matter to punish drivers.

                  Climate Change and resource depletion tells us that we can’t afford drivers. This is reality.

                  A lot of work needs to be done, is NZ ready for it?

                  Was Britain ready for it when it started the Industrial Revolution? Did they sit about gnashing their teeth, chewing their fingernails and tossing and turning in their beds at night wondering if they were ready?

                  Or did they just get stuck in and do it?

        • Ad 1.3.2.2

          Auckland PT is far better than it was in 2010.

          And improving quickly.

    • millsy 1.4

      This is basically going to price the poor off the roads. Especially the working poor who have to drive up from South Auckland and do the low-paid menial work that keep Central Auckland ticking.

      • Draco T Bastard 1.4.1

        That is how the market works.

        The problem, of course, is that the government will turn around and cough up subsidies so that those businesses will still be able to operate despite not paying enough to support the work that they want to do

  2. RedLogix 2

    Fuck me, just ….

    South Auckland social worker Anne is currently helping around 20 families get out of boarding houses around south Auckland, and her organisation has dealt with hundreds of others. She didn’t want her full name published out of fear it would hinder access to those families.

    “The reality is that families can languish in boarding houses for years,” she warns.

    Anne paints a bleak future for baby Julia, should she get stuck: “Living this way really denigrates the dignity of a person; it touches everything – their health, psychology, education, and employment.”

    “When you sleep in a room infested with cockroaches and fleas, surrounded by parties and fights each night, how can you be in the right mind frame for school the next morning?” she asks. “Where’s the space, even, to do your homework?”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/93211462/18monthold-julia-the-innocent-face-of-modern-nzs-brutal-archaic-boarding-houses

    And to give credit where it is due … good to see some real journalism.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 2.1

      I worry about the children being close proximity to people with serious mental health issues and pedocrims.

      We could print the houses, use prefabs, or any number of options. How hard can it be?

      • Muttonbird 2.1.1

        What happened to Bennett’s pop-up houses? Another press release promise broken…

        • RedLogix 2.1.1.1

          Perhaps the thing that most pisses me off about Tories is their sheer lack of imagination. Incompetent, do-little plodders the lot of them.

          For anyone is really interested in architecture, the human landscape, I’ve always regarded Alexander’s A Pattern Language as a foremost work of genius, a lodestar, a dream work that should be used everywhere to shape authentic, humane, truly life-affirming cities and spaces.

          It’s a massive read.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Pattern_Language

    • millsy 2.2

      It is the sacrifice of Julia and her family that ensure that ‘Middle New Zealand’ reap the benefits of high property prices, high rents and high dividends with a golden retirement (and a comfortable afterlife, if you belive in that stuff).

  3. greywarshark 3

    Early on Radionz discussion on Brit election. Studies have shown that all the media have downplayed or negatived Jeremy Corbyn and his ideas including the BBC.
    And they said that Jeremy Corbyn himself is not favoured for PM but his ideas are gaining acceptance. Theresa May has been picked by Conservatives as suitable to stand but has no ideas or vision of her own.

    And they played some of Liar Liar which can’t be broadcast in Britain pre=election.

    • Ed 3.1

      The Canary is a great website to follow the UK election.

    • jcuknz 3.2

      Having just finished viewing the first four series of ‘House of Cards’ produced by the BBC I wonder if it is all an anti-conservative propaganda to aid UK Labour?
      Which might explain the rise of Corbyn in the coming election coupled by the situation many find themselves in these day from Tory rule.
      Perhaps in NZ too if TVNZ is showing it as well. I do not have TV so cannot easily find out.

  4. Muttonbird 4

    This is why it’s a lie to use the CPI as a measure of inflation and as a measure of the realities facing New Zealand families. It begs the question what use is the CPI at all.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/332262/house-prices-far-outstripping-cpi-report

    • Craig H 4.1

      It’s a reasonable measure for the middle quintile of incomes, rubbish for the others.

  5. dv 5

    Two article about the problems housing in Auckland is causing the staffing of schools.

    Both are worth reading in full.
    All schools have lost staff because of the costs.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11868150

    Two Auckland colleges are looking at building or subsidising housing because their teachers can no longer afford Auckland housing costs.
    Auckland primary principals say children will have to be sent home this winter because there are not enough relief teachers.
    A historical inflow of teachers to jobs in Auckland’s expanding schools has turned into a net outflow of teachers to the regions.
    Schools are offering free childcare and gym facilities as extra perks to keep teachers.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11867471
    A joint working group of the Ministry of Education, the Post Primary Teachers Association (PPTA) and other agencies has found there is now a net outflow of secondary teachers from Auckland to other regions – “a significant change from the historical trend” of teachers who used to move into the growing metropolis for work.

  6. James 6

    Well done the baa baa’s last night. Out up a great fight against the lions.

    I’m predicting a 3 – 0 win to the All Blacks. We should even pick up a couple of wins with the super 12 teams.

    • Ed 6.1

      This is a poltical blog, not sports talk.
      Yesterday the Amwrica’s Cup, today rugby.

      • James 6.1.1

        Dear ed – you do know this is open Mike right?

        “For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply”

        Try to open your eyes there is more to life than typing “troll”.

      • adam 6.1.2

        Ed, nationalism is the bastion of the right when they are desperate. Racism is another, And these days so is immigration.

        So be grateful James is not barking about the others, he may be desperate, but not that desperate yet.

        • Ed 6.1.2.1

          This mob are quite snookered then.
          The TPPA and 5 Eyes undermines any claim to caring about our sovereignty.
          165 000 new arrivals prevents any argument against immigrants.
          They’ll need some new scapegoats.

    • AB 6.2

      No James – it’ll be very close 2-1 in either direction, not sure which.
      SA and Australia are very weak currently so the all black’s recent record is flattering.
      I’m predicting the depression of a 2-1 series loss to the Lions will add to the gloom caused by unaffordable housing, punitive rents, stagnating wages, being told by Double Dipper that they are “pretty useless” etc. etc. It’ll just tip people over the edge and they’ll turn on the government. Good times eh?

  7. James 7

    Team New Zealand choose Team BAR as their opponent for the next series of the Americas cup.

    We are looking a lot stronger than them – so looking good to making it to the finals of the challenge series.

    All good news on the sporting front this morning.

    • Ed 7.1

      Are we going to get sports reports from you every morning?

      • Muttonbird 7.1.1

        It’s a National Party strategy to piggy-back sporting achievements as a distraction from failures in government.

        • Robert Guyton 7.1.1.1

          Diluting TS posts with sports talk is a brilliant trolling strategy. With each sport-filled day, TS would become more and more like and eventually indistinguishable from, Kiwiblog, where such commentary is par for the course. Offering opinions about “the Cup”, no matter which sport is presently offering it, binds the lads at KB and gives them common ground from which to work. This is something Lefties lack, at least we lack an easy, rah rah rah form of “introductory discourse” that pads the social machine of the Right – sure, we could discuss fracking or homelessness as an ice breaker on line or on earth, but it’s not anything like as simple as sport chat. Of course I’m generalizing and many from the Left wing are passionate about sport, but the political Right have mastered the use of sport as a lubricant.

        • jcuknz 7.1.1.2

          Not just National Muttonbird …. just typical politics over the years I’ve been a voter.

      • James 7.1.2

        Only on days I choose.

      • joe90 7.1.3

        How’s them Crusaders.

        /

      • greywarshark 7.1.4

        Foreign Waka
        Thanks for the record keeping. The felt and experienced says a lot more to people than hearing that a certain piece of new roadway will take 3 minutes off the average person’s trip time.

        And I notice that the people who don’t turn on their lights seem to be in dark cars. They remain unaware of others on the road with lights when it is definitely dark, and it doesn’t occur to turn theirs on. No doubt their minds are on their own affairs rather than their driving style.

    • AsleepWhileWalking 7.2

      I fucking hate sports. If our government would stop putting millions into them to keep the population numb then perhaps little Julia would have a real home.

      • Halfcrown 7.2.1

        100%

      • James 7.2.2

        Yeah – sports what are they good for.

        The provide social interaction, fitness. Teamwork, entertainment and enjoyment. Most sports only have a positive impact on the people who partake or are involved in them.

        Go to a sports field in a Saturday and look at all the kids having fun.

        there have been lost before about “the left” and why do they hate sports – I guess it was about people like you.

        • garibaldi 7.2.2.1

          Good win for Oracle this morning James. They are going to piss all over NZ again.
          As for your fetish with rucking fugby, why don’t you give up on that minor game and follow the one and only beautiful game?

          • James 7.2.2.1.1

            Oracle didn’t win this morning – nz lost it :-).

            I wouldn’t bet on the outcome of the final yet – long way off and we have to get there first.

            As for the beautiful game – never been a fan.

            • In Vino 7.2.2.1.1.1

              All Blacks didn’t win the world cup – the French lost it. What a dumb argument.

        • The decrypter 7.2.2.2

          james,steady. Your cutting to the bone wit deserts you when you’re angry.

        • Molly 7.2.2.3

          At a community level this is true.

          Not so true of the comments you are posting about the America’s Cup or the professional rugby games. I suspect the focus on professional rugby (and other sports) has shifted government funding away from community grassroots levels to elite sportspeople. A consequence of a government not actually valuing what you say you value – social interaction, fitness, teamwork etc.

        • greywarshark 7.2.2.4

          James
          You are out of position, running amok and forgetting how the game works.

          What do you man that – the left – hate sports. You are a nutcase. Try hating me and leave Labour alone. There are things that need changing by them and we need to discuss and encourage them in their efforts to take their ideas and policies to the electorate and we don’t need foolish distraction from you.

        • Foreign waka 7.2.2.5

          James, for all intent and purpose – here is what is wrong with all this sports,sports and more of it.
          Firstly and overarching: It’s a do it and not a watch it all the time thing. THIS would bring the true benefit.
          Balance needs to be applied no matter what and by that I mean that we all would have a better time having more Arts and less Sport in our life. Even the News are now more sports than actual world events.
          By god, no other nation is watching thinking, talking and conversing so much about sport and yet has nothing much else to introduce to the wider public.
          It is shameful as NZ has a wide verity of artists of extremely high standards and I belief kids in particular should be exposed to it even to just make sure that they understand that it is OK not to box the next fellow in the face in order to be accepted in any group.

      • jcuknz 7.2.3

        +1000 Asleep while walking [7.2]….. The amount of money wasted by giving into pressure groups instead of running the country properly …..URRRGH!

    • Gabby 7.3

      You really blew chunks v Oracle though didn’t you jimbo? And you couldn’t hang on for a win against the lions. Shape up, gessim guss.

      • James 7.3.1

        Yeah – a group of provential players who have been together since Saturday nearly beat the best funded touring team of professional athletes ever to nz (in rugby).

        And nz – top out of the qualifying teams in the first round – not a lot tot to be upset about.

        See what’s life is like when the glass is half full.

        • Gabby 7.3.1.1

          Issplainins losin, jimby, Guessinguss. Jawnerrysy.

        • In Vino 7.3.1.2

          Your glass is half full of hot air. James. Smug glee at pathetic sporting results is what one expects from a half-wit who wants to escape from serious problems.
          Your glass is half full? Maybe that matches your wit.

  8. Glenn 8

    Bread and circuses….although theres bugger all bread.

    • weka 9.2

      Fuck. That’s looking grim.

      • Anne 9.2.2

        From the BBC coverage:

        The White House press secretary has confirmed the president is being kept informed about the incident.

        Follow
        Sean Spicer ✔ @PressSec
        National security team has briefed @POTUS on situation at #LondonBridge and will continue to provide updates…

        Uggh? Pandering to an ape on the other side of the Atlantic?

        http://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-40147014

        It seems there has been a further incident not far from the bridge and none of the culprits have been caught.

        It would not surprise me if this isn’t a coordinated attempt to create as much ferment and terror in the final days of the election campaign. It could mean there are further ‘incidents’ to come – at least in London.

        Edit: just seen Poission’s twitter feed. Looks like a coordinated campaign going on here.

        • weka 9.2.2.1

          Interestingly there was a poll the other day that showed Londoners now support Labour and Corbyn is gaining on May as preferred PM.

        • swordfish 9.2.2.2

          3 closely-coordinated terrorist attacks – all in same general area at the southern end of London Bridge. We were just there late last year – drove over London Bridge.

          (Actually – one’s in Vauxhall ….. further west along Thames)

          • Ad 9.2.2.2.1

            Swordfish, call me ‘too soon’ but does this gain Corbyn an extra % point?

    • Tui 9.3

      corybn threatens tories in the polls.
      another “terrorist” attack.
      coincidence?

      ~ tui

      • Sanctuary 9.3.1

        Terrorists aim to polarise. They want to see collective punishment of their own people to act as a recruitment tool. Launching attacks during election campaigns is an attempt to influence voters in that direction. Personally, I think the time for internment camps, stripping of nationality and expulsion to the middle east should now at least on the table for discussion.

        • Anne 9.3.1.1

          I think the time for internment camps, stripping of nationality and expulsion to the middle east should now at least be on the table for discussion.

          Yes. This is probably a far better way to gain control of the terrorists. If they lose their ability to operate successfully in Western countries then they lose their ability to sustain their campaigns.

          The main problem will be to find them first.

          • weka 9.3.1.1.1

            The purpose of internment camps is imprisoning people on suspicion without trial. If they were known terrorists they could be tried and imprisoned in the normal way. Very dangerous approach. I also doubt it’s effectiveness. If someone is willing to blow themselves up, the fear of an internment camp isn’t going to be a deterrent. So it’s about locking up enough volume of people to seriously dent the Brits who are willing to join the cause. How many innocent people are you willing to imprison for every terrorist stopped?

            • Anne 9.3.1.1.1.1

              I’m not suggesting holus bolus incarceration of anyone from a Middle Eastern background. Far from it. The police would need to produce substantive evidence of their terrorist links. For the most part they would be the leaders of the terrorist gangs which are obviously proliferating at an alarming rate. I’m sure the majority of Muslims in Britain (for example) would approve of their summary removal from society.

              • weka

                So why not write legislation to make the actions illegal and do it the normal way?

        • BM 9.3.1.2

          It’s fast reaching this point.

          That’s the problem no one knows which Muslim is going to be the one that tries to run you over or stabs you with a knife.

          Any known radicalised Muslims need to be rounded up and detained.

          • weka 9.3.1.2.1

            define radicalised Muslim.

            • BM 9.3.1.2.1.1

              The guy that blew up all those kids just recently, He was reported quite a few times by other Muslims.

              Once he became known by the authorities he should have been detained and only released when he was considered safe and not a risk.

              • Anne

                Rarely agree with BM but this time I do.

              • weka

                Oh, I agree with you on that one. But you said all radicalised Muslims should be interned. I’d like you to define that with foresight not hindsight.

                • Anne

                  Radicalised Muslims are the problem weka. They represent a minority of Muslims, and are currently able to recruit impressionable young men and women to their twisted cause. They need to be taken out of society before they inflict more carnage.

                  Must go… have a good debate everyone because that’s what it’s really all about. 🙂

                  • weka

                    When you get back, how about you have a go at defining radicalise Muslims. Because if the Brits were to have a policy of internment, that would need to be defined.

                    • David Mac

                      I’m in your camp weka. I do agree with BM’s thought that the people that should be pointing the finger at dangerous Muslims is the Muslim community itself.

                      I’m with you weka because I believe sending angry young Londoners home to their alien war-torn holes in the ground is not a solution. It will make things worse. Lets say we ban every Muslin from the UK. Wouldn’t they just pay Cockneys to place bombs?

                      The only way to make a worthwhile difference is to stop standing over and bombing the bejesus out of their homelands.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Why even ask the question? It’s time to get tough on the causes of terrorism, and we know that racism is one of those causes. So why provide racists with polite discourse so they can foment more terrorism?

                      Stop humouring their hateful rhetoric. Who gives a shit what BM thinks: his opinions will cause more mass murder.

                    • weka

                      Because I wanted to hear him think this one through logically.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      That isn’t how an amygdala works.

                    • weka

                      Just as well humans are more than their amygdala then. And BM, you and me aren’t the only people reading this.

                    • Rightly or Wrongly

                      Not too hard to do:

                      If Muslims show by their words, or actions that they sympathize and support jihadist interpretations of the Koran then they should face special Immigration Judges and be eligible for immediate deportation.

                      Also they have any welfare support removed and include a financial incentive for them to voluntarily leave the UK.

                      Relevant beliefs would be:
                      – Support for killing and murdering non-Muslims in the name of Allah.
                      – Support for the imposition of Shariah law in place of Parliamentary law.
                      – Support for the subjugation and oppression of women.
                      – Support (both moral and financial) for known jihadist groups including ISIS.
                      – Involvement, directly or indirectly, in such groups.

                      As well as doing this, for those who are British born, you make agreements with Muslim majority countries who agree to take these deportees including financial payments.

                      Overtime, this process would remove those in the Muslim population who have no desire to live peaceably with the English and reduce the risk of more terrorist attacks.

                    • Incognito

                      To Rightly or Wrongly @ 4 June 2017 at 4:20 pm:

                      After they have ‘extracted’ the confessions information they might as well go one step further and try to convert these people to the right beliefs & values. The old ‘techniques’ might still work a treat and after all, we’re dealing with ‘evil bastards’ who’ve lost their souls …

                    • Rightly or wrongly []

                      I didn’t say forced confessions.

                      If evidence of their belief or involvment in jihadism is obtained by normal investigative methods then this is acted on.

                      Just means they could be removed from the UK before they are able to murder and terrorise the population

                    • Incognito

                      To Rightly or wrongly @ 4 June 2017 at 8:30 pm:

                      In case you missed it, I was hinting at the Spanish Inquisition and I used this as a reductio ad absurdum in reply to your and other comments in this thread.

                      To obtain the information you’re alluding to some ‘encouragement’ will be needed, don’t you think? People are not usually providing self-incriminatory information by free admission only or on an entirely voluntary basis. Being detained in an “internment camp” already violates many conditions necessary for free & voluntary ‘collaboration with the authorities’ IMO.

                      I think it is not true that all terrorists can be identified by their beliefs only but in any case it would amount to religious persecution. How many innocent people will be caught in this cleansing conspiracy net? And these people will be free to go back to society once they have been ‘vetted’ and deemed ‘clean’?

                      The possibility that these camps & processes might help radicalisation and its spread/reach seems that have escaped some people.

                • BM

                  The only real way you’re going to find out who the radicalised Muslims are is with the help of the Muslim community.

                  If a Muslim is reported by other Muslims for demonstrating support for Holy war, support for ISIS etc then he/she is tagged for investigation/detainment and is considered a radicalised Mulsim until otherwise proven.

                  The vast majority of Muslims are good people the stuff that is happening in the UK at present is making their lives very difficult, it’s in their best interest to help get it sorted.

                  • weka

                    OK, so no definition, but British Muslims can be interned if another Muslim dobs them in? Can you see where that might go wrong?

                    • Ad

                      Weka, just because there is grey, doesn’t mean there is no black.
                      It’s a weak as piss argument for doing nothing in the face of danger.

                      But I don’t think “internment” is a useful term.

                      Jail is better. With a trial. Whether all the evidence can be public or not due to the secrecy with which it was acquired, is already covered by legislation designed for this stuff.

                      The definitions of crimes under the relevant UK law are in the 2006 Terrorism Act:

                      http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/11/contents

                      The punishments and the time in which suspects are able to be held without trial are also well established over there.

                      The authorities will have to act and look like they are acting soon on suspects – radical Muslim suspects – or they will see vigilante acts break out.

                    • weka

                      I haven’t said do nothing. I’ve said that I think using the existing justice system to try and imprison criminals is better than interning people without trial.

                      But if we are going to intern Muslims without trial, can we do this to men who are suspected of rape and rape promotion too? Because rape is a kind of terrorism, and affects far more people in the UK than political terrorism does, so let’s lock up the rape apologists without a trial too.

                      See how that works?

                    • Ad []

                      If “intern” means jail, sounds good.

                    • Sanctuary []

                      All very well and good through the lens of a nice safe liberal bubble.

                      But I bet if you were actually charged with the job of keeping the population safe from lone wolf or wolves attacks you’d be singing a very different tune very quickly. There will be some few thousands of potential jihadists in the UK. The safest course is to intern them all, until you are satisfied they pose no threat.

                    • weka

                      and let’s not forget we’re talking about a country with a seriously underfunded police force. Might want to do something about that too.

                    • Incognito

                      To Ad @ 4 June 2017 at 12:41 pm:

                      So acting for the sake of doing something, anything??

                      Even highly trained and well prepared professionals make lots of mistakes that (can) have disastrous consequences. The SAS debacle is one example and the AOS is another http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11868256

                      Politicians have no or all-too-familiar answers and the intelligence agencies or military forces seem to be behind the facts & events too. But let’s do something, right?

                      No doubt, a number of properties will be searched and a number of people arrested and no doubt they’ll find something but will this fundamentally change anything?

                    • Ad []

                      “…but will it fundamentally change anything?”
                      What a pathetically cynical comment.

                      You can tell the answer when a government takes your advice and does nothing.

                    • They imo want to intern Muslim looking people not Muslims.

                    • Incognito

                      To Ad @ 4 June 2017 at 3:23 pm:

                      Pathetic maybe – I do like your subjectivity – but cynical no, not really. I’d say you’re projecting too much onto my comment; I never said “do nothing”.

                      Arguably, the measures and actions so far have not done anything to quell terrorism, rather the opposite. Thus we must use our imagination and critical faculties, not our amygdalas, and find different ways to deal with an issue that is a cancer of humankind. Sticking a wee plaster on it is not a cure; this is not a cynical statement or “advice” but an observation rooted in historical experience.

                    • weka


                      All very well and good through the lens of a nice safe liberal bubble.

                      But I bet if you were actually charged with the job of keeping the population safe from lone wolf or wolves attacks you’d be singing a very different tune very quickly. There will be some few thousands of potential jihadists in the UK. The safest course is to intern them all, until you are satisfied they pose no threat.

                      I note that no-one has yet provided a definition of ‘radicalised Muslim’ or ‘potential jihadist’. Would you expect the police to just make their minds up on the spot from whatever is going on in their heads at the time?

                      You can call me a liberal a bubble, I’ll just call you a reactionary who can’t think things through. Maybe we should try and find some middle ground.

                  • One Two

                    Bat Man, you’re not much of a ‘thinker’ are you..

                    So much generalist clap trap that your comments can’t be ‘serious’

                    What percentage of Muslims would you say are radicalized, in comparison to western military forces and private mercenaries?

              • swordfish

                ______________________________________________________________________________

                BM

                “The guy that blew up all those kids just recently, He was reported quite a few times by other Muslims. Once he became known by the authorities he should have been detained and only released when he was considered safe and not a risk.”

                _____________________________________________________________________________

                He was known (and systematically used) by the authorities …..

                http://johnpilger.com/articles/terror-in-britain-what-did-the-prime-minister-know

                Critical questions – such as why the security service MI5 maintained terrorist “assets” in Manchester and why the government did not warn the public of the threat in their midst – remain unanswered, deflected by the promise of an internal “review”.

                The alleged suicide bomber, Salman Abedi, was part of an extremist group, the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, that thrived in Manchester and was cultivated and used by MI5 for more than 20 years.

            • Incognito 9.3.1.2.1.2

              Indeed, what is the difference between a radical and an orthodox religious person? Another word that’s often thrown around is “fanatic”; sloppy use of language and meaning is not helping one iota.

          • adam 9.3.1.2.2

            What about White Nationalist extremists who kill people in the states on a almost weekly basis, and yet we almost never have a discussion about them on this site?

            What about them? Are we going to lock up the alt-right? Make interment camps for them?

            People here have rightly felt sorry for the victims of this, but 1 week ago Jeremy Joseph Christian walk onto a train platform, started abusing a Muslim women, and when two people tried to calm him down he slashed their throats.

            WHERE THE OUT CRY OVER THIS!!?!

            White terrorist are getting a free pass. I for one, am sick of it.

            • keepcalmcarryon 9.3.1.2.2.1

              Link to current relevant “white terrorist” attack please.
              I for one am sick of PC.

            • 808state 9.3.1.2.2.2

              Where are all these weekly terrorist attacks by the alt-right?

              • McFlock

                If it’s “alt-right”, they’re just called a “justifiable police shooting”. 👿

              • keepcalmcarryon

                There isnt a pattern of them 808, one sad loser killed two brave people last week, who was white (why bring skin colour in to it adam?) but its not PC to mention militant Islamic terrorism.
                Does a wannabe nazi mean we cant say there is a problem with extreme islam? Are people that stupid?
                Seems people are too wrapped up in their fine ideals to deal with reality, the silence is deafening.

                • McFlock

                  There’s a problem with extreme Islam, just as there’s a problem with “wannabe Nazis”.

                  That’s the thing – as soon as one loses a fixation on a particular religion or worldview, you’re actually in a position to understand why people do these things, and that puts you in a position to stop them.

                  • keepcalmcarryon

                    Neither should be tolerated.
                    Here is the thing – on one hand we have an occasional lone nut job pseudo nazi like Breivik or the guy in the USA, on the other hand we have behind the scenes organisation and groups of islamic terrorists flying planes in to buildings or driving vans and mass stabbing people together. See the difference? Of course the jihadis do the solo stuff too, and more often.
                    I have no fixation on one religion but mass migration is both a cause of the nazi nut jobs hate, and the terrorists failure to feel accepted.
                    Those who think they are helping by opening the borders are part of the problem.

                    • McFlock

                      Shit, dude, even school kids get together to shoot up their classmates. The OKC bombing was by a group. Not to mention Aryan Nation and KKK.

                      And if mass migration is the cause of our problems, maybe we should look at the causes of it? Oh, but we can’t do that, because that might flip back on western foreign policy.

                    • keepcalmcarryon

                      you are going back to 1995?
                      Absolutely agree that western foreign policy is terrible we should have never had any part in Iraq or afghanistan ever. USA and UK have in my opinion committed war crimes.

                      By the way Im not going back to 1995 but here is a list of Islamic killings for one month, its not exhaustive (latest “incident” not included, and mostly non western):
                      -I will accept a list of comparable nazi or christian barbarity as fair comparison.

                      https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

                      [lprent: Deleted a copy and paste from a rubbish site that in all probability made their ‘facts’ up. Who do you think you are – a nincompoop like Trump?

                      The link will show that none of the items that you put on our site have ANY links against them. Furthermore, the majority of these aren’t even terror attacks – the number of gay bashings and domestic incidents is pretty damn high.

                      Quite simply, if you want to lie and build a story-line, all you have to do is to define your own rules like the idiot fuckwits you linked to do.

                      I could make up an equivalent list of Buddhists worldwide using the criteria that suicides are equivalent to the crieria that your linked pack of fools used.

                      Or a list of deaths from Christian terror attacks last month would be far far higher by the time I added in domestic incident deaths from fools who love their patriarchal obligations to beat women and overdo it. Of course not all Christians do that, but there are always fuckwits in any group.

                      And we won’t even mention the idiots who faithfully drink and drive in another religious observance. Which I personally tend to define as being people who don’t check their facts and prefer to run on pure faith instead. In this case like about the medical effects of inebriation, reaction times and motor control. Drink driving is such a leap of faith that it makes most religions look pretty damn weak. Moreover it has reproducible results.

                      But hey, I don’t have time for any religion and little for any ideological stupidities. I just look at what people do without your self-evident blinkers attached.

                      But unfortunately for you, my personal moderating rules tend to indicate that I don’t really like long lists dumped on this site without backing links. I expect people to just link to sites of interest, maybe with a short quoted excerpt, and then state why they think it is important. Just dropping whole pages from other site (especially outright trash) on this site is just graffiti. I regard people doing it as being trolls and I like to discourage any attempts at repetition. Especially when it contains an obvious copyright notice at the bottom.

                      Banned for 4 weeks for dropping a pile of what I consider to be be copyrighted rubbish fake facts on this site. ]

                    • keepcalmcarryon

                      Jesus McFlock you want to go back to 1995 to find another “whitey” to prove a point?
                      How about lets just look at the last month:

                      https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30
                      Islamic violence killed 1372 and injured 1652. (Doesnt yet include latest atrocity)
                      Thats the thing- this barbarity doesnt just happen to londoners, militant islam is bred of ignorance and indoctrination and happens most often closer to its home.

                      There is absolutely no question western foreign policy helps breed this and leaders in the USA and UK should be tried for war crimes. Equally undoubtedly Saudi Arabia has been spreading militant Islam via its Wahhabist madrassas for years, the fruits of which we have been reaping for some years now.

                    • McFlock

                      You went back to 2001. I figured 5 more years wasn’t a biggee.

                      So anyway, when the locals do it, it’s religion; when the yanks do it, it’s foreign policy. Gotcha.

                    • keepcalmcarryon

                      Im happy to slag western middle eastern foreign policy all day- like I say i think previous leaders are war criminals- but the fact is the USA does not deliberately kill children to make a point, however cavalier their aerial bombings can be.
                      ISIS may think they have a valid grievance with the USA or UK to justify killing kids at a concert but I dont think thats ok.
                      Do you?

                    • McFlock

                      nope, but now you’ve picked up a ban the point is moot

        • RedLogix 9.3.1.3

          I’m not going to gainsay anyone’s anger at this moment. But if we go down that path what do you imagine the end-game is going to be? What do you want to achieve and how are you going to get there? There are at least 1.5b Muslims, how do you think they will respond?

          Because in the same context you might want to keep in mind:

          https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/03/kabul-explosions-afghanistan-people-killed-funeral-salim-ezadyar

          http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/01/asia/kabul-bombing-diplomatic-quarter/index.html

          I accept that we naturally feel more empathy for Westerners we can identify with, while people dying in Kabul don’t arouse the same anger. I get that. But there is the ancient root of the problem; this whole business of “othering”.

          Still I’m as upset and angry as you are; more so because a sense of helplessness in the face of this. Unchecked the terrorists will win. Western restraint will not be endless, they will get the total war they wish for. But dear God the consequences of that make my blood run cold.

          • Robert Guyton 9.3.1.3.1

            “othering” is responsible for a multitude of failures involving humans; inter-human catastrophes, human/non-human creature disasters and human/non-living industry. Until we un-other, we are screwed.

          • Skyler 9.3.1.3.2

            Great to see this being discussed on this site by the Left. It is the one thing that bothers me about having a Left wing Govt although the Nats are presently doing it too. Labour and the Greens want to increase our refugee intake and likely 99% will practice Islam. I believe when it gets bad enough, yes we will have civil war in European countries. This will be terrible and blood will run. I applaud the kindness and intended goodwill of the Left but there are some things we simply have to be tough about. I particularly feel for the children born into these messed up hellholes but sadly we will destroy ourselves if we bring them all to the West.

            • RedLogix 9.3.1.3.2.1

              It’s a tough argument. Freedom of religion is a very basic principle; and provoking discrimination against the vast majority of Muslims in the West who want nothing more than a peaceful life is deeply repugnant.

              At the same time there is no question in my mind we cannot give a free pass to those fundamentalist elements of the Islamic world whose ideas and values are a direct contradiction to everything a progressive left would want to tolerate. For example:

              Arguments over the veil and the purity culture surrounding it have long divided Muslim women.

              But now, thanks to the shaming of girls murdered in a terrorist attack at an Ariana Grande concert as “whores”, the split has spilled out into the open.

              http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-03/linda-sarsour-hijabi-feminism/8583482

              I don’t have any easy answers. Like you I hold only trepidation.

              • greywarshark

                There is much talk about Muslims as if their religion did not have values and is considered by some to be inferior to those of the west.
                Some religions in NZ have dodgy practices. We need to bear in mind what we already put up with from so-called religions here before looking down at those of other cultures. When a cult gets control of someone’s life they can destroy the person. Perhaps these cults grow around all religions in time.

                The extremism of Exclusive Brethren has come to my attention recently. It has few principles of true Christianity it seems, just controlled and disciplined living concepts and a concentration on making money.

                When is a religion just a cult? There is an expectation that religions will nurture the spiritual side of humans, think of what comes after death, and Christians are supposed to be honest, live simply, be welcoming and kind to others. But then there are the ones on the make and who want to be exclusive and extreme. When is a ‘prosperity’ church regarded as a business. How is a commercial operation making $Millions entitled to call itself a little charitable tax-free enterprise?

                Some links.
                http://www.caic.org.au/biblebase/brethren/nopersonality.htm
                This is part of a report by MP Nick Smith on trying to assist a previous Exclusive Brethren who was being harrassed by them, and who had caused him to lose his job years after leaving the cult.

                “Smith told parliament that in one case, a Nelson pilot, Murray Turley, was excommunicated for wanting to get a job in another part of the country.
                Eleven years later he was recognised by a church member aboard the Air Nelson plane he was flying; representations were made to the company management by Brethren members and Turley was forced to resign. Smith said Air Nelson confirmed these facts to him.
                He said the alternative regional airline, Tranzair, also confirmed to Smith that it would never employ Turley for fear of losing a group of wealthy Brethren air travellers.

                and
                http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/78573007/Exclusive-Brethren-Sects-secretive-leader-tells-followers-to-drink-rat-poison
                “In a sermon in 2002, Bruce Hales advised followers to “Spoil the Egyptians”, a slogan derived from the bible, meaning “get your hands on worldly people’s money”.
                Hales said: “The world is there to take what we want from it, and leave everything we don’t want, spoil the Egyptians as quick and as fast as you can, and leave them alone…

                An investigation by The Times newspaper found the church had been granted $27 million in charitable tax relief in one year. The 17,000 strong British sect members made cash payments to Bruce Hales of $724,000 a year, although there was no suggestion that this was in any way unlawful.
                When the UK Charities Commission tightened the definition of a religious charity and refused a Brethren trust charitable status, Bruce Hales ordered church elders to put “extreme pressure” on its boss.

                In New Zealand, none of the the church’s charitable trusts are registered with the Charities Commission, meaning they are not required to say how much money they receive, or where the money goes.
                Instead, they have ‘donee status’ with the IRD, which means they pay no tax on donations.”

                “In September 2015, Bruce Hales was asked about [how] a mentally unwell New Zealand Brethren member man who had been in contact with “opposers” – people who have left the Brethren – should be dealt with. The “opposers” in question are understood to be members of the man’s own family who have already left the Brethren.

                Hales said “having links” with them was “rotten poison”, and that the poison had got into the young man, who is from New Zealand.
                Despite having been told that the man was “in what would appear to be torment at times,” Hales told the meeting it would be better for him to kill himself.

                “He might as well get a shot of – what’s the best thing to kill you quickly? … What’s the stuff? Cyanide? No, not cyanide,” Hales says.
                “Arsenic. How do you get arsenic into you? … He’d be better to take arsenic, or go and get some rat poison or something, take a bottle of it.”

                • RedLogix

                  Here’s a simple checklist for extremist cults:

                  1. Are entirely sure of their position.
                  2. Are against any compromise with and demonize outsiders
                  3. Advocate and sometimes use violence to achieve their ends.
                  4. Are intolerant of dissent within their group.

                  The EB’s tick all these boxes.

              • greywarshark

                I wish that western countries would take the heat out of all this and confound the narrative by okaying the hijab so that the girls/women wear the scarf/head cover. It leaves the face exposed so that all can see each other and interact as people, not one hidden away. If it is important to a vast number of people, the Muslims, then of course we can do that. It is an easy bit of tolerance and I am sure would be appreciated as such.

            • McFlock 9.3.1.3.2.2

              Enoch Powell had a similar vision. He was wrong.

        • Incognito 9.3.1.4

          I assume you’re referring to people with certain tendencies because anybody caught and suspected of alleged terrorist activities will be brought to justice and when found guilty and convicted will be dealt with through other channels.

          So, once Minority Report has been implemented and fully operational should we think of Guantanamo Bay detention camp or of other ‘camps’?

          I see the increasing frequency and shallowness of banal commentary as a very bad omen …

          • weka 9.3.1.4.1

            The eagerness to throw away principle of justice for certain classes of people is a worry too.

        • keepcalmcarryon 9.3.1.5

          Sanctuary now would be a good time to remind everyone of this thread
          /why-islam-is-incidental/ less than two weeks ago.
          where the cloying PC attitudes of some here abouts decided that islam was apparantly incidental possibly its just a man thing, along with the usual trite bigot/racist slanders from those whose moral superiority was in question.

          These were jihadists apparantly yelling “This is for Allah” http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11869563
          Lets see who these guys are, experience would tell us likely the products of mass migration, or their direct descendents poorly integrated.
          I’d welcome someone reading my links on that other thread re militant islam being preached by Saudi Arabia and thoughts on curtailing it.

          NB: internment camps are too easily abused by those in power, by all means try suspects, revoke passports and deport legally.

      • James 9.3.2

        Really the Tin foil hats some on here wear. This is the second terrorist attack in the U.K. Where people on here infer the potential for a false flag attack – while there are still bodies on the ground.

        You should be ashamed.

        • weka 9.3.2.1

          doesn’t have to be a false flag. It could be terrorists intent on disrupting the elections.

        • One Two 9.3.2.2

          Virtue signaling and deflection, all packaged up into a blustering attempt at grand standing

          There is a long and documented archive of ‘intelligence services’ around the world being implicated in the handling of ‘agents’, ‘sleeper cells’ and ‘patsies’

          Any given ‘event’ could be precisely one of those examples..

          Proving one way or another would not be possible, due to the gatekeepers of ‘official narratives’

  9. One Two 10

    These repetitive and continuous events are neither surprising, nor un-predictable

    Same can be said for those who can’t seem to scrape up a thought process much deeper than a surface scratch

    ‘Radical Muslims/Islam/Interment Camps’…

    The problem is those who ‘think’ on cue as they are programmed/directed to by the ‘orchestrators’ of these events

  10. greywarshark 11

    If anyone hasn’t yet looked down the Tegg Talk on coastline inundation and general climate change, this is such a good post today. And lots of links and details gathered together – that wouldn’t happen anywhere else and certainly on no other blog I don’t think.

  11. greywarshark 12

    TPPA Bulletin just out – excerpt

    Update on the Zombie TPPA

    The story so far about the Zombie TPPA, or “TPPA-1”:

    When the US pulled out of the original TPPA agreement in January of this year, it looked as though the toxic deal was done and dusted. This may well still be the case, but it in the last couple of months there have been some worrying developments among the remaining TPPA countries (“the TPPA 11”, as in the original 12 TPPA countries, minus the US).
    New Zealand and Australia have consistently said that they want to salvage the deal, and pushed for this at a Ministerial meeting in March. This idea shifted from fantasy and into the realm of possibility when Japan did a U-turn on its previous rejection of any form of the TPPA without the US involved. Japan has since joined NZ and Australia as a vocal cheerleader for the Zombie agreement.
    Senior trade officials from the TPPA 11 countries met in Canada early last month, before a full ministerial meeting on the sidelines of APEC on 20-21 May.
    Prior to that meeting, PM Bill English visited Japan, in large part to lobby Japanese MP Shinzo Abe for the TPPA-1.

    Ngā mihi koutou, please get in touch at itsourfuturenz@gmail.com if you have any questions or comments.

    (What did we parlay to the Japanese as reason to combine together? Was it to act against China, which is large and looming near them and they have history going way back? Or what – whales?)

  12. garibaldi 13

    Funny how all these people that want to round up the muslims don’t want to round up all the christians and jews doing similar things in muslim countries.

  13. jcuknz 14

    What a pointless thread this is …rant and rave …For some time now from my comfort of retirement I have wondered when people are going to get wise … Not locking up or expulsion but organising a society where all these young folk …. NOTE it is RARE that original immigrants indulge but rather their children which are causing these problems. So my question is “How do we change our society to look after and give purpose to the youngsters we are procreating?”
    Everybody raved on about the UK Labour advert but one part stuck out as dated thinking. “work for all” …. trouble is there is not enough meaningful work for our current young, let alone future generations. No mention of UBI provided one can demonstrate worthwhile activity when jobs go to robots. Capitalism brought us to this point and will destroy us if we cannot work out an alternative.

    • xanthe 14.1

      thank you jcuknz !

    • 808state 14.2

      “trouble is there is not enough meaningful work for our current young”

      The Manchester terrorist was able to access thousands in student loans and other welfare benefits to fund frequent trips to Libya for terrorist training. Hardly a case of a kid with no options.

      And why aren’t bored unemployed Atheist, Christian, Hindu or Buddhist youth in London detonating bombs and going on mass random hit and run stabbing sprees shouting “this is for Buddha/Spaghetti Monster in the Sky!”?

      • greywarshark 14.2.1

        808state
        Smart alec trivialising of a serious problem with callous sarcasm, and religious bias thrown in. A devils brew. Surely you can do better than drag us down with this sort of stuff.

        • Ed 14.2.1.1

          The more concerning issue about the Manchester bomber would be MI6’s involvement, as highlighted by Pilger.

          • Sabine 14.2.1.1.1

            this.

            +1 and some

          • 808state 14.2.1.1.2

            This is an interesting point. The elites are running a “bomb them and invite them” policy.

          • 808state 14.2.1.1.3

            I’ve followed Pilgers work for 15 years+, interesting stuff. His Marxist leanings are a joke, but otherwise his critiques are compelling stuff.

        • 808state 14.2.1.2

          Your faux outrage fails to deflect attention from the inadequacy of the claim that a lack of “meaningful work” is the cause of Islamic terrorism in Britain.

      • mauī 14.2.2

        Are you saying social welfare causes terrorism? 🙄

        In that case why wasn’t there extremism here when we had the family benefit, state housing for all who needed them, state owned power and phone, etc. It seems like we had a nice, peaceful, generally healthy society then.

        • 808state 14.2.2.1

          You are claiming a lack of “meaningful work” turns people into terrorists. But you demand everyone ignore the fact they scream ‘This is for Allah!” as they sink knives into Londoners.

        • jcuknz 14.2.2.2

          I think in those days Maui we also had full employment … that I think is the factor absent today. The days when the Minister of Labour could count the number of unemployed on fingers of one hand.
          Until we find a way to fully occupy the young with meaningful jobs [ to them ] and have marginalised groups then we will find the disillusioned think it is better to die expressing their outrage and end up with 72 virgins than struggle with a meaningless existence.

      • McFlock 14.2.3

        What, you mean like the UKIP guy who shot the British MP, or the other guy who recently stabbed three people on a train in the name of “free speech”?

        • adam 14.2.3.1

          The alt-right are killing or atacking political opposition almost weekly. And we hear bugger all.

          This is a little old but gives a good overview of where they are going in the USA.

          https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/12/16/update-1094-bias-related-incidents-month-following-election

          Actually the whole hatewatch section from the Southern Poverty Law Center is a impressive resource.

        • 808state 14.2.3.2

          No where near the scale of the Islamic terrorist attacks now occurring on a weekly basis in Europe.

          This is why Nationalism is on the rise and the Left finds itself hamstrung between that and the Globalists.

          • McFlock 14.2.3.2.1

            Really? If we counted the victims of say “Islamic” terror attacks in Europe and North America vs “nationalist” xenophobic hate crimes this year, how different would the scale be? A factor of ten? One hundred? A thousand? Or are you just making shit up to be a scared little bigot?

          • adam 14.2.3.2.2

            So the killing of Transgenders and Young gays in the last month did not happen. The far right loon bag who went out to the streets in New York at the start of May and kicked a black homeless man to death saying he wanted to start a race war was an illusion.

            But most of all are you in lala land 808state the rebirth of Neo-Nazis across Europe has lead to some serious violence. Here is just one case in the courts now.

            http://www.dw.com/en/terror-trial-in-dresden-for-freital-neo-nazi-group/a-37830922

    • Sabine 14.3

      there is a lot of work out there that needed to be done, mowing the Council owned berms – in NZ -would be a good thing to start.

      however, the issue that we have is that we don’t want to pay anyone to mow that fucking berm.

      and while we – society, businesses, private entrepreneurs and such – don’t want to pay for services jobs don’t get done.
      So we are not hiring the police officers the country needs, nor the nurses, nor the builders, nor the sales staff, nor the people that would answer the 0800 number you are calling to complain about a malfunction.

      We have jobs galore that need doing, we are simply to greedy and to petty to hire someone at a decent wage to do these jobs. I am sure the same can be said of any country.

      • greywarshark 14.3.1

        Sabine
        Good point. I don’t like this hands up in the air defeatist style from 808, and the obssession with Islam.

  14. Pete 15

    Sir John from tomorrow?

    • Ed 15.1

      If Talley got a knighthood and Key gets one it shows their value

      • james 15.2.1

        Good on him.

        A great way to thank him for all her service to NZ.

        • Muttonbird 15.2.1.1

          Her service? That’s about right given the mincing catwalk and the dropped soap in the cage gag.

          You must be very proud of your former PM.

          • James 15.2.1.1.1

            “You must be very proud of your former PM”

            I am.

            But don’t forget he was your PM as well.

            • McFlock 15.2.1.1.1.1

              No, he just did shitty things in my name.

              “John key” is what you ask for at a quiet petrol station, and boy did that piece of shit (sorry, “sir” piece of shit) deliver.

              The only good thing about his knighthood is that hopefully he’ll get the full treatment and the queen accidentally cut his head off.

              I’ve heard of the order of the garter, dunnokeyo wants to be the first recipient of the order of the hair tie.

      • mary_a 15.2.2

        @ Tony P (15.2) … what a joke Key’s knighthood is, considering he wanted to replace the present NZ flag with his own pathetic design! Now he’s a knight of the realm for his attempted treachery against NZ!

        A knighthood for treason, as well as misleading Parliament and the people of NZ on many occasions during his tenure. And then there were the assaults on a waitress over a period of seven months, not to mention him publicly ridiculing prison rape! Whatever next!

        Key’s honour has now definitely confirmed Knighthoods are an absolute farce!

        • gsays 15.2.2.1

          “They are both level one honours”.
          …shudder..

        • Pete 15.2.2.2

          I see he’s not fussed about being called ‘Sir’ and that John would be fine.

          Am I still allowed to call him that word staring wth ‘K’ and ending in ‘T?

        • James 15.2.2.3

          Hey Mary – you sound very mis informed. For starters he wasn’t his design.

          As for the treason bits – well you sound a little crazy going on like that.

    • weka 15.3

      Surly donkey.

    • millsy 15.4

      I knew it!

    • RedLogix 15.5

      Not when the real reason for his resignation eventually leaks out.

  15. RedLogix 17

    Interesting:

    The defence and intelligence community believes that attempts by the Chinese Communist Party to exert its influence in Australia pose a direct threat to our nation’s liberties and its sovereignty.

    That fear has been confirmed by a five-month-long Four Corners-Fairfax investigation which shows Beijing is active across a vast array of fronts — from directing Chinese student associations, threatening Australian-based Chinese dissidents, seeking to influence academic inquiry, co-opting community groups and controlling most Chinese-language media.

    And Monday night’s Four Corners program will track the millions in opaque Chinese-linked donations to show how it buys access and influence in Australian politics.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-04/australian-sovereignty-under-threat-from-chinese-influence/8583832

    And what I wonder is happening in NZ?

    • Ad 17.1

      Good and dark research, and much more interesting than seeking internal terrorist conspiracies from the state.

      Our Chinese “conspiracy” is more open:
      they simply buy our food companies with impugnity.

    • 808state 17.2

      And Chinese hot money fueling the house price inflation in Auckland.

      The official claim that “research” shows only 3% of house purchases in Auckland are foreign is a LIE – peddled by government and real estate industry – both benefiting massively from the housing price bubble.

      NZ hands out resident status like candy, that’s where the foreign purchases are hidden.

      Labour had the balls to call the government out on it, and ironically is now labelled “racist”.

      • James 17.2.1

        “Labour had the balls to call the government out on it, and ironically is now labelled “racist”.”

        No labour were called racist for the Chinese sounding name report they did.

        Even they admit that it wasn’t their finest work.

    • keepcalmcarryon 17.3

      The difference is the Aussies actually give a shit about their sovereignty and good on them.

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