Open mike 04/07/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:35 am, July 4th, 2014 - 291 comments
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Step up to the mike …

291 comments on “Open mike 04/07/2014”

  1. Saarbo 2

    Todays NZ Herald editorial shows it has no concern for low income!

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11287190

    As a BOT member, collecting school donations are a pain in the arse, so getting rid of them is a great policy, and the extra funding will be appreciated as well.

    NZ Herald misses the mark…again.

    They have an article on DC tomorrow, I guess they are going to make another attack against Labour…not looking forward to it. What a piece of shit the NZH is.

    • i wonder if it was roughan or o’sullivan who penned this tripe..

      ..the writer says that ‘free-education-zealots’…would be the only ones who wd support this policy..(!)

      ..so..suddenly..if you support free-education..

      ..in the eyes of these rightwing pricks..

      ,.you are a fucken ‘zealot’..?

      • Tracey 2.1.1

        ” i wonder if it was roughan or o’sullivan who penned this tripe..”

        ..um…!..still handwringing..?

        ..eyes still fixed on the usual..?

        • phillip ure 2.1.1.1

          yr point..?..from one side of yr mouth you peddle yr chimera..and bewail the lack of ‘critiqued-information’..

          ..and out of the other you sneer at ‘critiqued-information’..(!)

          ..the one-eyed-zealotry runs deep in that one..

          • Tracey 2.1.1.1.1

            my point..?

            If you write k?, then the angels sing and the heavens rejoice in the righteousness of your words.!…

            If someone speaks, not with you.. Then beelzebub himself has stirred to cloud their minds and blur the truth… Eh?!

            With each exhale their every breath aye, are condemned by your RIGHTeousness and with each and every inhale your truthful certainty is confirmed.

            Your religiosity of your own views leads you to believe that saying we are not zealots is a critique. Bah!

            • phillip ure 2.1.1.1.1.1

              have you got an inferiority-complex-on-steroids going on there..?

              ..’angels sing’..?..whoar..!

              • and what cd be illuminating for you..

                ..would be to go back and read the attacks on those who fought against human-slavery..

                ..back when opposing that was considered ‘crazy’/’economic-suicide’..by most..

                ..go and read yrslf…

                ..in an earlier incarnation..

                ..’religiosity’-allegations/accusations..and all..

                • The Al1en

                  The fact you equate human slavery with animal husbandry is just a bit wow!
                  That you don’t get called for it more often, even more so.
                  Add you think you are on a par with anti slavers and it’s wow, with an added cringe of disbelief.

                  Tracey has you down pat. It’s a fair cop guvnor.

                  And the inferiority complex jibe – I hit you with that the other day. Glad something stuck.

                  • The way animals are treated is related to the way people are treated – can you not see that?

                    We treat animals as commodities to be used by us for our own ends as we used to, and often still do, treat people as commodities to be used by us for our own ends.

                    • Tracey

                      agree.

                      However phil is putting himself on a par with those that fought the slave trade… Thank god those folks didnt wait til the threshold dropped to actually do something.

                    • McFlock

                      There is very little crossover, by and large, between people and animals.

                      We shouldn’t treat people as commodities.
                      But nor should we treat animals like people.
                      For the same reason we shouldn’t give goats a vote.

                    • Funny though one of the likely indicators of children suffering abuse is if they are cruel to animals or in other words if a child is cruel to animals (and this is often pets) then that is a danger sign that they may have suffered/be suffering from abuse or neglect.

                      http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/abuse_neglect/qa/cruelty_violence_connection_faq.html

                      So maybe the crossover is a little more than a little.

                    • McFlock

                      And if they throw their teddy bear across the room it doesn’t mean that the bear is sentient and has moral agency.

                    • Not sure if your sentence works with a kitten or puppy rather than a toy.

                      Why would cruelty to animals be an indicator if the cries of the kitten and /or puppy are just like the squeaking of a hinge?

                    • McFlock

                      because projection is not indicative of the level of sentience (or lack thereof) of the thing projected upon.

                      Look, animal cruelty is bad, m’kay? It’s just not the same level of bad as cruelty against people. Because most species of animals do not have the same level of sentience as people. So yes, a sea sponge is almost certainly morally equivalent to a rock. Cow, not so much. Gorilla or elephant, almost certainly not. Human – certainly not.

                    • “Look, animal cruelty is bad, m’kay? It’s just not the same level of bad as cruelty against people.”

                      Yet one is an indicator of the other so “The way animals are treated is related to the way people are treated” is correct.

                    • @mcflock..

                      “..Because most species of animals do not have the same level of sentience as people..”

                      that is just an outright lie..

                      ..are you claiming those animals don’t suffer unimaginable horrors..?

                      ..even fish have a central nervous system very similar to humans..f.f.s..!

                      ..and the pigs..the cows..the chickens..

                      ..they also don’t ‘suffer’..eh..?

                      “..sentience is the ability to experience sensations (known in philosophy of mind as “qualia”).

                      The concept is central to the philosophy of animal rights – because sentience is necessary for the ability to suffer – which is held to entail certain rights..”

                      ..but you just claim there is no ‘sentience’..eh..?

                      ..whoar..!

                    • McFlock

                      not if it follows “The fact you equate human slavery with animal husbandry is just a bit wow!”.

                      Slavery and farming are nowhere near moral equivalents.

                      You’re also putting the cart before the horse: Y being one of several reactions to X does not make X and Y morally equivalent, or even directly related.

                      edit:
                      phil – too garbled, didn’t read.

                    • human-slavery also used to be called just-‘farming’..

                      ..’slave-husbandry’..

                      ..(‘ungarbled’ enough for you..?..)

                      ..and you get pissweak-avoidance-of-sentient-fact-award for the week..

                    • McFlock

                      tg:dr

                    • The Al1en

                      “Slavery and farming are nowhere near moral equivalents.”

                      To any rational person, of course they’re not, and any one who thinks they are is not only fooling themselves, but doing a great disservice to all those who stood firm, opposing the trading of human beings.

                      Up themselves is a ‘fucken’ underestimation.

                    • “..Thank god those folks didnt wait til the threshold dropped to actually do something..”

                      well..i haven’t exactly been ‘doing nothing’…

                      ..presenting the evidence in forums such as this is ‘doing something’..

                      ..and this ’cause’ was one of the main reasons i started whoar

                      ..to mix this message in amongst the quality-journalism etc linked-to..

                      ..credibility by association..as it were..

                      ..and over time i have built a sizeable resource on matters vegan/animal-rights..

                      http://whoar.co.nz/category/vegan-stuff/

                      y’know..!..i do what i can..

                      ..and when that threshold drops..

                      ..i think you will see some movement in that animal-rights political party area..

                      ..with the aim of standing/winning seats in parliament in ’17…

                    • @mcflock

                      “We treat animals as commodities to be used by us for our own ends as we used to, and often still do, treat people as commodities to be used by us for our own ends.”

                      they are connected – it’s the commodity bit.

                      You may say that it doesn’t matter much because animals are commodities – I can’t quite remember the term you’ve used in the past – meatwalkers? meatjackets? Something like that anyway. That’s your opinion and I disagree m’kay?

                      You and allen draw the line under human – I have a wider view of who or what should be treated with respect and humanely. Guess what? It doesn’t diminish my belief in human rights – somehow I can hold both of those ideals in my head at the same time – who’d a thunk it eh.

                    • McFlock

                      meatbots. Not all animals.

                      I believe in human rights too. Hell, I’m also against animal cruelty.

                      But I believe extending human rights to animals is not just farcical; I believe that when slavery is equated with cattle farming (for example), it belittles and insults those people who stood against and/or were/are real victims of slavery.

                    • Fair enough but for me seeing the connections doesn’t diminish or belittle all of the efforts good people made to ‘end’ slavery or the victims of that foul practice. I also agree that extending human rights to animals is wrong – animals should have animal rights – rights accruing because they deserve them as living entities sharing this spinning rock we live on, rights that protect them from being exploited and commodified by the bigbrained bipeds.

                    • McFlock

                      most of the farmed ones wouldn’t exist if they weren’t comodified or exploited. But they shouldn’t be treated cruelly.

              • and speaking of things ‘religious’..

                ..i just attained a new level of porridge-nirvana..

                i did all this http://whoar.co.nz/2014/porridge-gets-a-facelift-comment-ed-and-make-sure-you-dont-forget-the-dates/

                ..and i added a handful of chopped-up prunes as well..

                ..and stuck a stick of cinnamon into the whole..

                ..whoar..!

                ..i stopped eating it 20 mins ago..

                ..yet my taste-buds are still afire..

                ..belting out serial-renditions of the ‘hallelujah-chorus’..

                ..it’s quite the ‘religiosity’-experience..eh..?

                ..to be recommended for all..

                • and ya can stick yr bacon and eggs as well..!…heh..!

                  ..this sucker blows them right out of the room..

                  ..i feed ‘the boy’ this b4 he heads off to university..

                  ..he sez it keeps him running on all cylinders until mid-afternoon..

                  ..and i wont eat again until evening…

                  ..there’s half yr uber-healthy vegan-diet..

                  ..right there in that link..

                  ..master that one..and you’ll wow! people for the rest of yr life..

                • Bearded Git

                  Dates not prunes. Nothing can describe the hatred I have for prunes.

                  • both..bg..both..

                    ..the prune-pieces..after the cooking..are little taste-grenades tat explode in yr mouth..

                    ….and dates do indeed rock..

                    ..but all recipies are variable to taste/availability….

                    ..with that porridge-upgrade the slow-cooking/just-walk-away..!..no stirring after initial mix..!..wholegrain-porridge..!..cinnamon-stick..!

                    ..are the key-imperatives..

                    ..and the ideal time to ‘walk-away’ for..is 20-25 mins..

                    ..the longer you leave it to do its’ slow-cook thing..

                    ,.the more like a pudding it becomes..

                    ..that’s what makes it so brilliant to try to get kids to have healthy-breakfasts..

                    ..instead of that sugar-laden crap that sends them out the door on a sugar-high..

                    ..and soon after to crash..

                    ….if they are ‘difficult’..fill it up with what they like..and emphasise the pudding-for-breakfast treat aspect of it..

                    ..it’s a winner..!

            • phillip ure 2.1.1.1.1.2

              and re yr last line..i posted an op-ed on that @ 7.01 am..

              ..some of that ‘critiqued-information’ you serially bewail the lack of..

      • Vicky32 2.1.2

        “so..suddenly..if you support free-education..”

        Despite, it seems, what the Education Act says! Education must be “free, secular and compulsory”…

        • phillip ure 2.1.2.1

          i’m still shaking my head at that one..

          ..it couldn’t be a clearer indication of what a rightwing-rag the herald is..

          ..and what rightwing-hacks their editorial-writers are..

          ..that they will go into print..in a masthead-editorial..not just some loons’ op-ed..

          ..calling anyone who supports free-education..

          ..a ‘zealot’…

          “..synonyms: fanatic, enthusiast, extremist, radical, Young Turk, diehard, activist, militant;
          bigot, dogmatist, sectarian, partisan;
          fiend, maniac, ultra, nut..’

          ..the real ‘zealots’ are the rightwing-rand-ite-fucktards who have so screwed over our country/people..

          ..’rightwing-rand-ite-fucktards’ in both national and labour..

    • northshoreguynz 2.2

      I’m filled with foreboding about that. It probably won’t be a direct hatchet job, too obvious. More likely damn with faint praise and filled with snide remarks.

      • aerobubble 2.2.1

        Herald brings up,= how the minority of schools make “excessive demands and become petulant”.

        Sums up the extreme zealots of neo-liberalism, who routinely want us all to cheer that they do it hard, paying school fees on top of top up donations, to their ‘choice’ of schooling.

        As if the herd is supposed to be thankful for the herd leader taking command, doing it tough by not being payed enough, paying too much tax, etc. When we all know excessive pay, high burden of taxation on lower to middle incomes, is harming our economy and its efficiency.

        Take the housing debate, we’re told that housing is unaffordable. But not why. Something about incomes but thats a distraction. The real way to measure affordability is to measure the time it takes mortgage holders to pay off their house. Given that many now use their homes to support businesses, and even reverse mortgages, its clear that even the medium income earners are being stretched by the current financial regulation straitjacket that squeezes every low to middle earning citizen in order to sustain and perpetuate a, what was the term, neo-liberal zealots in the wealth and standing they have come accustomed to.

    • veutoviper 2.3

      They have an article on DC tomorrow, I guess they are going to make another attack against Labour…not looking forward to it. What a piece of shit the NZH is.

      It will be interesting to see who does the article – but I am also expecting it will be (at the least) a ‘soft hatchet’ job, possibly along the lines of Michelle Hewitson’s interview of Laila Harre last Saturday.

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?objectid=11283264

      • Anne 2.3.1

        It will be interesting to see who does the article –

        A few days ago the author was said to be Phil Taylor and one other… Phil Taylor is a good journalist who seems reasonable and objective.

      • David H 2.3.2

        Have you seen Franks letters of complaint to the NZH? Now they make interesting reading.

        https://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2014/07/04/the-liu-affair-the-first-step-to-a-complaint-to-the-press-council/

        Got a way with words that I envy there, Frank.

        • veutoviper 2.3.2.1

          Thanks, I had not caught up with that one. I have very high regard for Frank Macskasy. And he is great at documenting and listing all relevant facts, articles etc – an invaluable source.

          • BLiP 2.3.2.1.1

            Nice work by Frank, thank you sir.

            This snippet from Tim Murphy’s casual dismisal of the concerns raised jumped out at me . . .

            . . . On the signed statement: There seems to be an unusual expectation being aired that inquiry journalism has now become a field in which all documents obtained are made public – a kind of open source investigative process. This, while superficially seductive, cannot always be the case in the pursuit of serious and ongoing journalistic investigations relying on confidences and respecting sourcing and legal sensitivities . . .

            . . . what a very stupid thing to say. No one is expecting “all documents” to be made available, only those from which “facts” have been extracted for publication. In meatspace its called “providing references”, on the interwebz its called “DOX or STFU”. Tim Murphy would do well to turn from his current mentor of accountability, John Key, and look towards the example of an actual journalist like Glen Greenwald. Of course, such a suggestion relies on the assumption that Tim Murphy’s view of what constitutes “news” is not synonymous with “entertainment” and/or “propaganda”.

            • Tracey 2.3.2.1.1.1

              +1

              People only start demanding documentary proof from a paper when they have lost trust for its work.

          • phillip ure 2.3.2.1.2

            ditto re macskasy…

        • ianmac 2.3.2.2

          Brilliant Frank. Truly in awe at the detail and the referencing.
          I have not had a reply from the Herald so will send my complaint to the Press Council, though much more modest in content.

      • phillip ure 2.3.3

        that hewitson/haare one should be seized upon by media-studies courses..

        ..as a stellar example of how not to do an interview..

        ..and/or..how to do a really crap interview..

        ..and/or..how to make the interview all about the interviewer..

        ..it’s a three-fer…

    • vto 2.4

      At least it is very clear to everyone what political colours fly on The Herald’s flag – those of its big business corporate owners. Hard core right wing is The Herald’s politics.

      Again, why do we expect anything independent or objective – the rag is owned by big business ffs. The Herald is conflicted to all hell.

      As for the actual article I started coming across too many items of shit in it to keep count. Dribbly shit with not an inkling of understanding of the political philosophy driving the policy.

  2. DH 3

    This is the kind of self serving pap Labour should be addressing more IMO, might give a hint as to why so many in the lower socio-economic groups don’t bother voting.

    “Landlords say low taxes cap rents ”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/10228984/Landlords-say-low-taxes-cap-rents

    In one breath he says they pay $500 mil in tax and in another he says removing depreciation costs landlords $700 mil. So if it’s restored they’ll be paying minus $200 mil in tax.

    He also conveniently ignores the taxpayer’s $1.2 billion in accommodation supplements of which I have no doubt more than $500 million goes to pay rent. And that’s not even counting the massive social welfare bill of which a large part also goes in rents. So no, they don’t pay any nett tax… to use a euphemism so favoured by the Nats.

    His comments about landlords losing money, keeping rents low rah rah are utter crap. Rents always lag behind property inflation so they can seem low from a new investors perspective but in fact are not low for established investors.

    • Tracey 3.1

      MPs have been given a proposal for a $4000 accomodation increase in wellington. How many have decided to donate their $4000 to the local mission or similar.

      http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10200416/MPs-may-get-4000-more-for-housing

      Government ministers will get close to the median wage in housing perks after yet another review of expenses.

      The Remuneration Authority, which sets MPs’ pay, is proposing increasing a Wellington housing allowance for the Executive by $3500 to $41,000. MPs will get an extra $4000 to take theirs to $28,000.

      The median weekly income is $844. Ministers will get $789 a week to put to their housing costs. Some out-of-town MPs, including Energy Minister Simon Bridges, own a Wellington property. They can use the cash to pay the interest on their mortgage.

      A backbench MP earns about $150,000 a year, which rises to about $250,000 for ministers.

      Public Service Association president Richard Wagstaff said doctors, nurses and hospital clerical staff had received a wage rise of just 0.7 per cent. Other civil servants were fighting for between 1 and 2 per cent raises.

      “That’s more than a 10 per cent increase,” he said. “The Government says the economy is growing and working New Zealanders can expect those improvements to flow through to them. On the other side of their mouth, they say to their government departments: ‘You’ve got to cut spending and are not to give out wage rises.’

      • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1

        We need to ask a couple of questions about these housing allowances:

        1. How much does that housing allowance cost the taxpayers per year?
        2. How much would it cost to build a 120 room apartment building?
        3. How much would it cost to maintain said building
        4. Is this ongoing maintenance less than the ongoing costs of the present ministerial housing allowance?

        The answer to #4 is fairly obvious – it most definitely would be cheaper to hire a few people full time to look after a single building than it would be to pay each minister tens of thousands of dollars each year. Especially considering that the MPs also get to claim for cleaning. Which brings up the next question:

        Why are we paying so much to house our ministers in Wellington?

        I believe it to be nothing more than a way to direct taxpayers money out into the private sector to boost profits for the few some of which happen to be MPs. Bill English’s rort comes to mind.

    • Awww 3.2

      Extensive Accommodation Supplements certainly haven’t kept rents low.

      And what specifically is the NZPIF definition of a “low” rent? I’m guessing it is based around the investment being cashflow positive rather than something people can actually afford.

      • DH 3.2.1

        “And what specifically is the NZPIF definition of a “low” rent?”

        They work it out on current market values. Since rent increases lag behind housing inflation by a year or two rents will always seem to be low as a percentage return on current value.

        The point is these investors didn’t pay current market price for their properties so their returns are (mostly) very good based on their actual investment. Even someone who bought property a year ago is up to 10% better off than what these bozos are claiming.

    • Awww 3.3

      And in the style of A(n)nals of Online Dating….
      …to the investors for trying to induce fear among their tenants of their landlord/overlords being subjected to brutal taxation regime that would in turn be responsible for them becoming homeless.

      • 90 points for total lack of social responsibility
      • 60 points for tactically omitting the fact that at any point you can sell the house that has become a massive tax liability and invest in any number of profitable and less taxed investments
      • 10 points for achieving National coverage.
      • 150 points for feigning powerlessness to prevent further financial exploitation of tenants
  3. Tracey 4

    So the herald posted some letters from damien oconnor when he was minister of immigration overriding some criteria for Mr Liu. Why didnt Labour pre empt this when the cunliffe letter surfaced? They must have known it was a matter of time so why not come clean.

    The herald has waited til now, drip, drip, drip. So, is it really National being smeary? Surely no party can be smeary, from any side without a press that decides to run with it in a certain way.

    David bain’s wife being pregnant was the heralds full page story a couple of days ago, with a reference to the diplomat on the top banner. My partner said

    “when papers change to the smaller size do they have to go tabloid?”.

    So, who is really setting the tone?

    I am NOT saying this stuff is not reportable (although i dont consider david bain becoming a father is newsworthy let alone front page). I am saying people can only vote based on what they know, and knowing that damien oconnor and national both are happy to waive rules for the wealthy is important but so is what parties have planned for us.

    The herald has done a follow up on diplomatic immunity and revealled a few other instances including one of domestic assault

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11287226

    In melbourne over anzac weekend, the govts proposed changes to the superannuation were full front page, followed by analysis in the following pages.

    Where do we go for this, two and a half months before an election? Party sites and affiliates dont help much. Having hooton and williams on radio advances nothing.

    And to finish the day i read that the liar in chief is so disappointed about being misinformed cos he tries so hard to be honest to NZers.

    BLiP, that may be his biggest lie of all.

    VOTE GREEN

    • mickysavage 4.1

      Gee Tracy there are a few dedicated staffers who do not have the ability to track down every single piece of paper signed by a Labour MP in the past decade. And outside this there are a few dedicated amateurs doing what they can to help. On the other side there is resources galore and a public service who has been terrified into being compliant to Ministerial instructions. This really is a David vs Goliath battle. And rather than preparing to counter every single smear that may be thrown at the party we would prefer that it gets on with completing and releasing policy.

      • Tracey 4.1.1

        gee micky, a minister of immigration, damien oconnor, intervened three times in Liu’s PR. Did Labour not do an OIA of this itself, or have its own ministerial records, and did oconnor forget? That you put oconnors actions in the same league as an electorate letter says more about you and nothing about resources.

        • Ant 4.1.1.1

          Yeah DC’s letter was proforma (and we’ve heard the excuses), O’Connor’s was ministerial intervention that everyone knew about, it should be much easier to track, it’s worrying that this wasn’t preempted in any way.

        • mickysavage 4.1.1.2

          Nope Tracey I did not put O’Connor’s letter in the same league as an electorate letter. I was expressing the thought that I would prefer that the party put effort into getting policy releases right than digging through files which are nearly ten years old.

          • Tracey 4.1.1.2.1

            cool mickey. How is it working for Labour so far?

            Is o’connor rated in Labour? (genuine question, not sarcasm)

          • phillip ure 4.1.1.2.2

            i question that logic..m.s..

            ..surely it isn’t a case of either/or being the only option..?

            ..and surely you must have known you wd be eventually bashed with this one..?

            ..(could it have been more heralded..?..(pun intentional..)..

            ..i mean..o’conner pushed it thru..the day before the election..?..)

            ..so why aren’t you prepared/ducks all in a row..?

            ..who’se doing the strategic-thinking there..?

            ..at times..it seems nobody is..

      • Ronnie Chow 4.1.2

        “This really is a David vs Goliath battle.”

        Really?. It is more like a David versus David battle . Are you also sorry for being a man , Greg?.

        • Murray Olsen 4.1.2.1

          John Key should be sorry for not being a man. He’s more like a megalomaniac head prefect, who accepts responsibility for nothing. He misrepresented totally what Cunliffe said, and belittled the importance of addressing violence against women. With Goodfellow, and the recent ex-army forceful casanova appointed to run a new government unit, it’s pretty obvious NAct don’t put stopping this violence high on their agenda. To spout such juvenile crap at Cunliffe when he makes an attempt, which reportedly went down well with his audience, is nothing more than disgusting. Vote NAct for the preservation of rape culture.

        • crunchtime 4.1.2.2

          I can’t believe Cunliffe put is foot in it so badly with that one.

          Sorry for being a man?? FFS! Honestly! Not only does this sound awful to any intelligent sensitive thinking person, it gives all the haters a chance, rightly or wrongly, to call Cunliffe something that no leader ever wants to be called: weak.

          And of course Jonky comes in with the obvious response that makes him sound sensible.

          “The problem isn’t being a man, the problem is if you’re an abusive man, and I think it’s a bit insulting to imply that all men are abusive.”

          Key’s comment is note-perfect and tbh this is one of the extremely rare times I actually agree with something that came out of Key’s mouth.

          David vs David indeed. Someone slipped something in Cunliffe’s tea? Because this was just about as bad a gaffe as you can get.

    • DH 4.2

      Yeah I read the bit about Damien O’Connor too. To be honest I think the article kind of cancels itself out as an effective attack on Labour ‘cash for favours’ with the revelations about ex Nat MP Warren Kyd lobbying for Liu.

      It’s pretty hard to insinuate Labour was taking cash from Liu when the person Mr O’Connor was dealing with was an ex National MP, so I’m struggling to see just what point the NZH are trying to make there. What are they trying to imply, that Kyd was in on it too?

      • Tracey 4.2.1

        Dh

        i wondered about the kyd connection too. Clearly they have not found cash for favours against labour but there are a couple of strands;

        Labour will waive rules for the very wealthy
        Once national, always national n, do thy bidding (kyd)??

      • ianmac 4.2.2

        @DH: “What are they trying to imply, that Kyd was in on it too?”

        Freedom raised the same point yesterday. Kyd was the advocate for Mr Liu. He therefore knew every bit of the transactions. We might easily join the dots between the inside knowledge supplied by Kyd and the mates back at National and the mystery statement as yet unpublished by Jared Savage.
        Therefore maybe Jared has been a little, a very little helpful in illuminating the possible origin of this story of Liu. The O’Connor story is just a vehicle?

    • BLiP 4.3

      Thanks Tracey. That link also points to collusion by the police in that they too have been keeping things under the radar. Perhaps if the media actually employed dedicated police and court reporters we might know a little more about these sorts of things.

      I havn’t had much time lately for my list keeping activities so any and all tips are welcome. I can’t see the link to that whopper about John Key trying to be honest. Also, would you happen to know the exact lie John Key told about the diplomatic situation? John Key has become even more tricksy lately by prefacing his comments with slippery “outs” like “so far as I am aware” and “as I have been advised” or, his greatest one yet, “within that context, as far as I know, to be honest, based on the information available at that time, to the best of my recollection, so I understand, in the end”.

      Yes – VOTE GREEN.

  4. Paul 5

    What did you expect?
    The paper has shown its FOX news colours after the Liu donation story.
    People starting to see the corporate media for what it is. A shill for the elite.
    Boycott this rag and other mainstream propaganda outlets for the 1%.
    If you want to see who dictates editorial policy, follow the money. See who owns them.
    It’s usually a foreign banking interest.

    • Tracey 5.1

      i understand that paul. I havent paid for a herald in over 8 years. I saw the cover at a supermarket.

      I also notice who is reporting the hard news right now, about policy, about mp perks about the diplomat and its not armstrong, young… So there IS heart for such stories…

      My main point of posting, is where do the masses turn for critiqued information?

      I will dig out news viewing numbers to see how many actually watch tv news.

      • phillip ure 5.1.1

        “.. where do the masses turn for critiqued information?..”

        ..um…!..still handwringing..?

        ..eyes still fixed on the usual..?

        • Tracey 5.1.1.1

          um… Still a dickhead?

          This from the man who is waiting for others to form a vegan animal rights party rather than do it himself. You must be really conflicted over KFCs hash burger

          • phillip ure 5.1.1.1.1

            what a strange ‘attack’ from you..?

            ..is that yr only response to what i said..?..about ‘news’..?

            factcheck:..i am actually waiting for the threshold to drop..

            ..i don’t really want to piss into the wind..

            ..but when that threshold does drop..i hope the various threads of the the animal-rights movement will coalesce into a political-force..

            ..to give a voice with power/influence..to those concerns..

            ..to give a voice to those slave-animals..

            ..and if there is anything i can do to make that come about..

            ..i shall lean in..i won’t be ‘waiting for others’..

            ..(and ‘hash-burger’..?..i geddit..!..druggie-jibe..it’s not that crash-hot..but i do get it..

            ..really ‘grasping’ there..aren’t you..?..)

            • Tracey 5.1.1.1.1.1

              you know phil, that you think your intial response to me was not an attack simple reinforces my view that sometimes you are blinded by your self righteousness, deigning to drop you version of wisdom into our less than perfect lives. Imagine your surprise when one day you open your eyes and find you are down in the gutter with the rest of us.

              Fact check. I am waiting for the threshold to drop

              Reality check:when we had fpp you were probably waiting for mmp.

              • ‘still handwringing’ is ‘an attack’..?

                ..and deserving of a ‘dickhead’-response..drug-jibes..?..attack on my animal-rights stands..?

                ..have you not had yr bacon yet today..?..bit ‘edgy’..?..hanging out for it..?

                • bad12

                  Human rights for all viciously abused vegetables is what i say…

                  • The Al1en

                    I am the angel of death. I put the ground up immature babies of the black pepper plant on my chips last night. Mwahaha

                    • bad12

                      Have you no pity Alien, spare a thought for the poor abused Pepper Plant as it is cruelly ripped from the ground…

                    • The Al1en

                      What is required is a joint agency (not that sort of joint, Philip) to deal with animal eaters and vege abusers, when they have sausage, egg, chips and peas.

                      The food nazis could could drive around in detector vans at meal times with flashing lights and a sign on the side reading ‘caution, may contain nuts’.

                    • bad12

                      Lolz Alien, will put up a link tomorrow which discusses ‘new research on plant intelligence,’

                      It discusses the beanstalk experiment, one i like coz anyone can do it at home,(without creating mayhem), the version in the link tho should have been taken to its next logical step, which in my opinion definitely shows some form of ‘thought process’ having occurred in the beanstalk…

                    • The Al1en

                      I always talk to my plants, so perhaps best not test them for intelligence.
                      Like the hunter in the pig topic the other day, I also take only what I need, thank and pay respects to my food.
                      Sentient or not, I think it makes them taste a little sweeter, like a frost or two on a parsnip does before harvest.

                    • Tiger Mountain

                      We are getting into Reductio ad absurdum and dialectical contradictions territory here on “Open phil” today.

                      In a cold indifferent quantum universe why care about anything perhaps? Let alone animal rights. Meat particles/vegetable particles.

                      But some people do care, meat is murder, as much as some of our number tilt the duality of human existence–conscious social being slash rutting beast in favour of the latter.

                    • ianmac

                      Water has soul too you know. As I swallowed my mouthful of water I heard a faint scream. Is there nothing left to eat or drink? Fading, fading fa………

                    • The Al1en

                      As arguments to absurdity go, we nailed it.

                    • The Al1en

                      “As I swallowed my mouthful of water I heard a faint scream”

                      All those micro organisms, gone in a gulp. You callous sod.

                    • Plus 1 TM

                      …some people do care…

                    • bad12

                      Lolz it is my evil plot to have you all guilt tripped into eating nothing, and then, the bad’s shall rule the world…

                  • The Lone Haranguer

                    I have seen the broccoli killing fields myself.

                    I have been part of the machine (bit like the pinball wizard really) and I have seen the slaughter of some 13 million buttercup squash one warm Gisborne summer. In order to cover our tracks from the vegans, we rebranded as Kabocha and for two years, they had no idea what we were up to. I think the vegans lacked the “Bacon gene” so they werent too smart.

                    When we finally got sprung, we went back to calling it buttercup squash. And eating bacon.

                    MMMMM Bacon

                    • bad12

                      Mmmmm Bacon, i totally agree, while in taiho mode as far as eating the stuff goes, its more or less a given that when i reach my target weight Bacon’n’egg burgers will once again be on the menu and i was lost in reverie for quite some time yesterday dreaming of a yummy fried rice with bacon, eggs, tomatoes, and, spring onions…

                    • The Lone Haranguer

                      Its just a pity that a diet of bacon (mmmm bacon), and chocolate milk wont get my weight down to the healthy zone.

                      Will have to get the bike out again.

              • other factcheck:..

                ..aren’t we all ‘in the gutter’..?..but just ‘some of us’ etc etc..?

          • The Al1en 5.1.1.1.2

            “um… Still a dickhead?”

            Chortle

            A pro chicken party – That will never fly.
            A pro cow party – What a load of bull.
            A pro sheep party – Just a baaad idea.

            • marty mars 5.1.1.1.2.1

              Within the wider context of people that care about those less fortunate can you not see that for some, animals are included within that category – it’s not a joke, it’s not fake – it is real, sincere and imo valid.

    • Tracey 5.2

      found this from august 2013

      Primetime average audience – 25-54 demographic

      6pm-10.30pm TV One 153,900 TV2 150,900 TV3 160,500

      • Vicky32 5.2.1

        That’s very depressing – 3 News stinks!
        How much of it is involuntary? Until I got a new TV a few weeks ago, I could get ONLY ONE CHANNEL for nearly a year – yes, the awful TV3. Lucky I can now avoid it as much as possible.

  5. Weepu's beard 6

    Mr Key is defending Mr McCully.

    “Ministers are obviously responsible for issues, but sometimes their departments let them down,” Mr Key told reporters.

    And he had a message for the official who negotiated with Malaysia’s foreign ministry.

    “Justice should be undertaken in New Zealand through our legal process, not offshore,” Mr Key said.

    “If that person doesn’t have clarity about that position, then they ought to think very strongly about whether they’re in the right job.”

    Still putting the boot into ministry workers, and trying to sidestep that McCully and himself are responsible for that ministry. What idiots.

    Something rots from the top down.

    • ianmac 6.1

      At this stage just before an election Mr Key, loyal and efficient leader and PM, cannot afford another Minister loss. Williamson? Collins? and McCulley? He is trapped and must just hang on regardless.
      Actually though, how will it look if in spite of confidence in McCulley, Key asks him to stand down as MP for East Coast Bays? Perception can be ramped up.

  6. Colonial Viper 7

    Googling for TOR or any encryption software lands you on the NSA grid as an
    extremist

    Well, this is where the growing paranoia and self serving nature of a massive secret police/surveillance apparatus becomes more and more obvious. Remember we are paying for these Stazi-like activities (x10,000) while people live in the cold and in poverty.

    Article mentions one of the benefits of NZ being aligned with Empire.

    • infused 7.1

      To be fair, if you are going on Tor, it’s generally only for a few things.

      All of the illegal.

      Also:

      XKeyscore exposed: How NSA tracks all German Tor users as ‘extremists’

      Not quite the headline you posted.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1.1

        Yes, in China, it’s illegal to know about your own country’s history, for example. In Egypt, it’s illegal to provide legal services to those accused of terrorism.

        Good to see you toeing the line.

        • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.1

          and drugs.

          Not that I think drugs should be illegal but you can guarantee that such people aren’t paying taxes either.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 7.1.1.1.1

            On that basis we should monitor everyone who uses a telephone.

            • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.1.1.1

              Actually, I tend to view things the other way. No one should be monitored unless they get noticed in a criminal action. Then the police monitor their communications and those they communicate with. And, yes, that will mean that some innocent people will have their meta-data collected.

              We can’t just go after one criminal else the rest of them just continue on.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                I believe the legal term is probable cause.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  But have you now considered what things like the Tor Network do to those investigations?

  7. bad12 8

    From my wireless this morning, Slippery the Prime Minister quoted thus: ”the person at MFAT who gave the Malaysians conflicting advice had better look for a new job”,

    You will be Slippery, after the election in September, looking for a new job that is…

    • karol 8.1

      Great. So some MFAT person is condemned as guilty without a fair trial?

      • bad12 8.1.1

        That appears to be the attitude of the Prime minister karol, ‘find’ that someone else other than Him and Murray McCully are responsible for the fiasco and then look around for a suitable scapegoat to hang,

        The pair of them, McCully and Slippery the PM would have both been informed of the arrest and charges against the Malaysian diplomat soon after that arrest occurred,

        Did either of them publicly disclose this arrest or show an iota of concern for the victim and the ramifications upon that victim which would have ensued by simply sweeping the whole incident as far under the carpet as they could???,

        Not likely, swish swish went the brooms and the pair of them quite happily went about their day thinking that ”the problem” was to all extents dead and buried,

        It is my opinion, considering the time-frame, how the public eventually became aware of the incident, and, the fact that both McCully and the PM were informed at the earliest opportunity of the incident that they, McCully and the PM, had every intention of having the diplomat spirited out of the country and having the public remain unaware that the incident had taken place…

        • Rosie 8.1.1.1

          +1 bad12

        • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1.2

          That appears to be the attitude of the Prime minister karol, ‘find’ that someone else other than Him and Murray McCully are responsible for the fiasco and then look around for a suitable scapegoat to hang,

          That’s the attitude of National and right-wingers in general. They will always blame someone else shifting the responsibility from themselves. It seems to be what they mean by personal responsibility – someone else taking the blame for what they’ve done such as the increasing poverty brought about by the neo-liberal paradigm which they put the blame for on the poor themselves. As far as they’re concerned, they can never do anything wrong.

        • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1.3

          Investigation hopelessly compromised

          An investigation into the Malaysian diplomat bungle has been hopelessly compromised by the public comments of the Prime Minister John Key, says Labour’s Foreign Affairs spokesperson David Shearer.

          “Today Mr Key was quoted as saying that he thought the person responsible would ‘need to think very strongly about whether they are in the right job.’

          Mr Key has decided who is to blame and wants action taken to protect himself and Minister McCully. He’s taken on the role of judge, jury and executioner.

          McCully has said he will have an investigation. But Key’s words show that this will be just a whitewash because the culprit has already been found, so that no ministerial responsibility will be required.

          You don’t blame someone before an investigation unless that investigation is going to be a whitewash.

  8. i wonder if rawdon christie will be as outraged as he is over the maori kings’ son getting discharge-without-conviction..

    ..when john banks gets his promised discharge-without-conviction..?

    • Molly 9.1

      If he is… that outrage should have been expressed when the other two defendants got discharge-without-conviction.

      Else it would be prejudiced and biased to claim outrage now…. oh…Rawdon Christie..

      • phillip ure 9.1.1

        christie is permanently shortlisted for oink-of-the-year…any year..

      • bad12 9.1.2

        Yeah Dover Samuels is banging on with the same theme, that the kid got special treatment because of who He is,

        That’s absolute rubbish, as has been continuously pointed out, the other kids involved, and, its hardly the crime(s) of the century that they committed, got the exact same treatment,

        Any kids with what the judiciary see as ”a bright future’, given the same level of offending, would undoubtedly receive the exact same treatment,

        Even a thuggish lout like the 13–14 year old me was, had this privilege extended a number of times in the kiddies court, it is only a pattern of continued offending that sees the courts begin to harden the sanctions against the individual and that is how it should be…

  9. karol 10

    The review and comments on last night’s episodes of Hope and Wire are worth reading. I did think it was good drama, but it’s important to read responses from people in Christchurch – a northern view of the quakes, and doesn’t represent what happened very well at all.

    I liked the old socialist geezer, and his partner – she was excellent in pulling up her sleeves and getting on with doing what needed to be done, and helping others.

    • i loathe docu-drama with an intensity that is almost visceral..

      ..it is the worst of both worlds..

      ..and is often lies dressed up as some sort of pretence at truth/accurate-account..

      ..pure-documentary performs that task much better..

      ..rather than turning it all into some kind of pap-smeared/heart-string plucking soap-opera..

      ..preserving/building ‘plucky’-myths..

      ..i wd rather a small proportion of the eye-watering cost of this be addressed to a doco examining what a clusterfuck the whole govt-response to the earthquake has been..

      ..since the eartquake in chch..china has used more concrete..than america used in the whole of the 20th century..

      ..and here..?..with these fucken clowns in charge..?..we still have a demolition-site..people shivering in cold/broken houses..

      ..and this docu-drama is too soon..

      ..too many people in chch are still going thru the real-drama..

      ..and this soap-treatment is an insult to them..

      • Rosie 10.1.1

        Did you watch it phil? Serious question.

        • The Al1en 10.1.1.1

          I was going to ask the very same question.

        • phillip ure 10.1.1.2

          no rosie….i didn’t watch it…for all the reasons stated..

          ..i am not that much of a masochist..

          ..it may well have been ‘well-done/acted’..

          (and a clutch of under-employed luvvies got some work..so that’s all good..)

          ..it is the genre itself that has me running for the door..’bio-pics’..(shudder..!..)

          • bad12 10.1.1.2.1

            Lolz@ Phillips elongated critique of something He didn’t bother to watch, must be great to have such a crystal ball right Phillip…

          • karol 10.1.1.2.2

            Criticising something for being in a soap format, without viewing the actual programme, shows a real lack of understanding of the way the soap genre has had a bad press – usually because it is seen as a conventionally feminised format.

            Soaps are a subset of the melodrama format. They focus on people and relationships – pretty much something that gets relegated to the under-rated, and subjugated “feminine” sphere.

            Would you have prefer a disaster/action format? (usually coded as “masculine”)

            Melodrama, while not necessarily presenting the detailed nuances of surface “reality”, operates at a level of reality that focuses on emotional, moral and/or social realities/truths. Soaps and melodramas can be done well or badly. It’s not enough to dismiss something because it is done in a soap format.

            Brecht showed how a focus on the detail of surface realities, can misrepresent deeper realities. This is particularly because experiences that happened over days and months are collapsed into a couple of hours of a stage presentation. Showing a riot as it happened, can just show us people breaking windows, and shows nothing of the social, emotional and political context. The rioters can just look like a bunch of thugs.

            Brecht preferred dramas that broke the flow of the narrative, to stop people getting sucked into an unreal presentation; eg the use of characters talking directly to the audience. He thought bad acting, and clunky presentations can sometimes be better at generating discussion about the realities the presentation is trying to address.

            People are certainly “talking”/writing about how well Hope and Wire has so far represented the experiences of the people of Christchurch, with many talking about how it falls short, and what the experience was actually like.

            • phillip ure 10.1.1.2.2.1

              well..yes to most of that..(are you doing or have you ever done..’media-studies’..?..)

              ..”..Would you have prefer a disaster/action format? (usually coded as “masculine”)..”

              um..!..no..!..i dislike ‘disaster/action’..as much as doco-drama..

              ..bruce willis..?..(shudder..!..haven’t seen one of them..)

              ..i said a considered doco wd have served a far greater purpose..

              ..and if you want the very best in ‘soap’…dripping with life/charcter-lessons..

              ..and the very best soap-acting ever..

              ..check out the very early kitchen-sink dramas of mike leigh..

              ..esp those with timothy spall in them..

              ..unalloyed-genius..!

              ..utterly fucken brilliant! examples of all that you extoll about soaps..

              ..with what must be the best collection of character actors..

              ..while i also like leighs’ later stuff..

              ..this early stuff is what really rings my soap-bells…

            • Rosie 10.1.1.2.2.2

              I was just about to reply to phil but karol has put my basic thoughts into a far more intelligent expression than I could muster

              I would add that an audience will receive the format in different ways. So phil, you prefer a doco format, that would be your ideal way of absorbing the info. Others may prefer drama, they may be able to understand and begin to relate to the events through the relationships that play out between the characters. Folks learn and relate in different ways.

      • Molly 10.1.2

        On a bit of a tangent – phil – but given your preferences, you may enjoy the recent “The Internet’s Own Boy” about Aaron Schwartz. Trailer here.

        Very interesting watch, especially considering his young age and political views and advocacy, especially around Open Source.

    • Rosie 10.2

      I was initially wary of how Hope and Wire would come across. Would it be cringe worthy or sensationalising grief? Would it be a copy of the drama Treme, set in post Hurricane Katrina New Orleans? Would it be lame?
      When Gaylene Preston’s name came up as the director in the opening credits I relaxed a little and went into it with an open mind.

      I agree that it is a good drama and also liked the characters of Joycie and Len. There is an interesting mix of characters from different backgrounds. Joel Tobeck is good as the landlord with an eye out for an opportunity and a buck to made – he plays the part well. Will be interesting to see how it progresses.

      • freedom 10.2.1

        Joel Tobeck! Who does with a character what Shayne Carter can do with a guitar 😎

        • Rosie 10.2.1.1

          I have always liked Joel Tobeck. He can play so many different types of characters but always retains that element of quirk.

          Funny you should mention Shane Carter. I was listening to some old straightjacket fits the other day, followed by Dimmer. I had temporarily forgotten about one of our best guitar icons and was very satisfied upon listening again.

          • freedom 10.2.1.1.1

            Rosie… have you heard and or seen The Adults?
            https://www.youtube.com/user/TheAdultsNZ
            Got to see them in Wellington a while back and it was astoundingly brilliant noise

            here’s a treat with Shayne on bass

            more on topic is their wonderful performance with the CSO as well

            • Rosie 10.2.1.1.1.1

              Yes I have, but until now only knew “Nothing to lose”. That song I put into my new favourites songs list for 2011. I love it. And the band is of course made up of stock from NZ rock royalty.

              Anniversary day, from your link, is a beautiful song. I’d have to say though, song discovery of the day would have to be “One Million Ways”.

              Thank you 🙂

    • ianmac 10.3

      All those bloody ads diminish a brave program.
      I identify with the community of spirit. My 80+ sister and her husband became a rallying point for the houses around them. Fix. Repair. Tea. Reassure. Suggest. And manage scones cooked on a wood burner.

      • Rosie 10.3.1

        Much respect to them ianmac, for showing such a generosity of spirit and resilience. And really admirable skills too, scones cooked on the log burner!

      • Molly 10.3.2

        Community spirit lives on, often in the form of people like your sister and her husband.

        Only hope their woodburner is under ECAN guidelines – ianmac…

        ECAN’s current priority is making sure that no-one is warm who hasn’t upgraded. And they’ll fine you $300 if you can’t explain why your chimney was sending out heat, and you don’t have a permit for the new type of logburner.

        • fender 10.3.2.1

          Rig up a camera, mount a hose out front and blast the chimney police as they spy on your home with their heat sensing device, farking fascists.

          Fining people is so counter-productive, it’s preventing people from getting the cash together to upgrade their burner. Does someone have to freeze to death before common sense prevails…

          • Molly 10.3.2.1.1

            Agree.

            Had the same thought about fining, when I kept reading about the police fining people for not having carseats.

            Thought to myself that if the priority was actually child safety, the best outcome would be that the police continued (if they had to) with the fine, but the fine would only be charged with the provision and fitting of an appropriate childseat, and would just cover the costs of doing so.

            People don’t usually choose not to keep their children safe – they are often making hard budget choices. Fining those that could not afford carseats just penalises them for being financially restricted – AND – moves that possibility of child safety just that much further away.

          • Rosie 10.3.2.1.2

            +1 Molly and +1 fender.

            It’s real face palm policy from ECAN. At it’s core is pure mean spiritedness, as if people haven’t suffered enough. It’s not a sensible way to solve an air pollution problem. All you do is create a health problem in it’s place, and resentment.

            Why don’t they look at ways to help people install a new regulation log burner instead of punishing them for trying to stay warm? What about offering a zero interest loan that can be added to their rates bill and paid off over a maximum of x amount of years to be agreed upon depending on the landlord or home owners ability to pay?

            What about a solution focus instead of a punishment focus?

            And what about authorities (eg, EPA) paying as much attention to the industrial and agricultural pollution of our land, waterways and air? If they applied the same amount of zeal as the ECAN air quality monitoring officers do to the chimneys of CHCH then we’d have a much healthier environment.

  10. karol 11

    I saw a report on Al Jazeera News this morning, about the spread of measles among an Ohio Amish community. They are a community that has rejected getting immunised. The report said that, if the large majority of a community is immunised, it tends to create a buffer against measles spreading. But it will spread like wildfire in an unimmunised community.

    Here is a report on it from a local Cincinnati news channel.

    • Chooky 11.1

      not just the Amish…a number of medical doctors query mass vaccination for things like measles, which were once a common childhood virus with very little side effects for most children…these doctors dont regard measles as generally a life threat unless in undernourished populations which lack certain vitamins eg A and D….

      MMR vaccinations are big business….and make huge profits…the long term side effects are not well studied

      • karol 11.1.1

        I am of one of the generations that experienced measles as one of the common experiences of childhood – a kind of rite of passage. We were never aware that it was a fatal illness – just something unpleasant to be lived through.

        Nevertheless, the statistics do show it is now avoidable via vaccination, and that catching measles can lead to death.

        • Chooky 11.1.1.1

          who compiled those statistics?…because a lot of kids who have been vaccinated against measles are getting measles… a sure sign that the measles vaccine is not working

          ….anything can lead to death if you look hard enough…including vaccinations

          • Daveosaurus 11.1.1.1.1

            Bullshit.

            In case you’re scared of the link:
            84 confirmed cases. 76 not immunised at all. 4 only partially immunised.
            Now compare those stats with the proportion of the population who are fully immunised.

            If you really want to know what life was like for kids before vaccination, fire up your local council web site and have a look at the records for any pre-1900 cemetery. And be shocked at all the records of little kids who would have died from things like polio, measles, smallpox, diphtheria etc.

      • Chooky 11.2.1

        not so much “science denialism” …. as skepticism of multi billion dollar medical business ‘science’ …which does not examine side effects or long term effects and sweeps adverse reactions under the carpet

        when you get doctors and scientists also skeptical about the efficacy of some of these vaccinations then maybe there is problem???!!!!!

        • McFlock 11.2.1.1

          …which does not examine side effects or long term effects and sweeps adverse reactions under the carpet

          bullshit

          when you get doctors and scientists also skeptical about the efficacy of some of these vaccinations then maybe there is problem???!!!!!

          Yes, but is any specific disagreement the result of a problem with the vaccine or a problem with the doctor or scientist?
          Usually it’s the doctor.

        • Draco T Bastard 11.2.1.2

          You mean like the doctor mentioned in the article?

          Wakefield is a disgraced former doctor who had his medical license revoked due to his unethical behavior in publishing a paper asserting that the MMR vaccine was linked to autism, a claim that was contradicted by his own findings and the findings of other studies. His paper, even though discredited, is used widely as evidence of the dangers of vaccines, and the anti-vaccination movement hails Wakefield as a hero to their cause, even today.

          Yeah, I think ignoring him is probably good for your health.

          • Chooky 11.2.1.2.1

            there are many doctors/scientists besides Wakefield who question the need for some vaccinations…so no I wasnt referring to Wakefield ..( i was referring to at least two doctors I know personally)

            ….however you should consider who Wakefield has been discredited by…and whether that organisation has been discredited

            http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2014/06/24/measles-and-measles-vaccines-fourteen-things-to-consider-by-roman-bystrianyk-co-author-dissolving-illusions-disease-vaccines-and-the-forgotten-history/

              • McFlock

                🙄

              • Chooky

                More on the specialist gastroenterologist Dr Wakefield and how he was set up by a now ‘disgraced’ journalist working for Murdoch media which was in cahoots with big vaccination business and British Pharma…

                http://vran.org/in-the-news/so-who%E2%80%99s-disgraced-now/

                “It was a journalist, Brian Deer, who filed charges against Wakefield with the British Medical Council; Deer had been hired to investigate and write reports about Wakefield in the NI newspaper, the Sunday Times by Rupert Murdoch’s son and CEO of NI, James Murdoch; in 2009 James Murdoch had been made a director of GlaxoSmithKline (GSK), one of the makers of MMR vaccine; the safety of MMR vaccine came into question when a 1998 study by Wakefield and co-researchers found chronic bowel disease in twelve children described in the paper as having “a history of normal development followed by loss of acquired skills, including language, together with diarrhoea and abdominal pain…In eight children, the onset of behavioural problems had been linked, either by the parents or by the child’s physician, with measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination.”

                ….Deer’s research was assisted by Medico-Legal Investigations, a private eye company whose only source of funding is the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry; judge, Sir Nigel Davis, denied parents whose children Wakefield treated the right to be heard in court about claims against vaccine manufacturers; judge Davis’ brother is an executive board member of Elsevier (publishers of the Lancet which removed Wakefield’s 1998 paper on the discovery of the new bowel disease) and is also on the Board of GSK; the Chairman of the General Medical Council Fitness to Practice Panel who ruled against Wakefield, Dr Kumar, refused to answer questions about his shareholdings in GSK.”……

                • northshoredoc

                  I see you’re still spreading your lies Chooky – I suspect most people if they are even tempted by the rubbish you spout will go to the link and realise that the sites you link to are fact free zones.

                  • Chooky

                    Lies?!…i am increasingly thinking that you are sexist and patronising…I do hope people will check the links and make their own minds up….i am increasingly thinking that you are sexist and patronising…God help your patients…that is if you really are a doctor….because many New Zealand doctors would disagree with you and be appalled at your attitudes!

                    • northshoredoc

                      Actually Chooky well over 99% of Medically qualified doctors would agree with me that vaccination with two doses of MMR vaccine is the best and safest way to protect oneself and society in general against measles.

                      They would likely also agree with me that you are a complete moron.

                • ropata

                  Here are the consequences of your anti-science stupidity Chook.

                  There are now almost 100 confirmed cases of measles in the Waikato area as schools there try to deal with the outbreak.

                  The number of those affected stands at 95 – with 11 more people becoming sick since late last week.

                  Waikato DHB medical officer of health Dr Anita Bell says that about 80 per cent of the people affected as between 10 and 20 years of age. The rest are aged under 10 and are close contacts of a confirmed case.

                  The outbreak has forced several schools to cancel sports events, discos and other activities.

                  • Chooky

                    Can you provide scientific evidence that I caused the outbreak of measles in the Waikato?…do you even know what dispassionate scientific inquiry means?…i doubt it!

                    http://business.financialpost.com/2014/05/01/lawrence-solomon-vaccines-cant-prevent-measles-outbreaks/

                    Safety aside, vaccines repeatedly failed worldwide in the 1980s and 1990s. As described in “Measles Elimination in Canada”, a 2004 report authored by Canadian government officials and academics, “despite virtually 100% documented one-dose coverage in some regions, large outbreaks of measles involving thousands of cases persisted … Clearly, because of primary vaccine failure, Canada’s one-dose program was insufficient.”

                    The solution finally arrived at — adding a second dose for children — initially seemed to tame measles outbreaks. But in recent years, the new vaccination regime, too, has been failing, with widespread outbreaks again occurring, including among those who have received the recommended dose and especially among infants too young to be vaccinated, and thus unprotected because their mothers had been vaccinated. Now health experts, scrambling to find solutions, are suggesting numerous reforms, including earlier child vaccinations and second doses for adults.

                    Clearly, the science is not settled, making for parents a numbers game of the decision to vaccinate their children. Some parents rely on the press or health authorities to interpret the numbers. Others defy the authorities and weigh the risks in the numbers differently, in deciding what’s best for their own families. Who are these others? According to a survey in Pediatrics, unvaccinated children in the U.S. have a mother who is at least 30 years old, who has at least one college degree and whose household has an annual income of at least $75,000. In the absence of studies showing vaccinated children to be healthier than those unvaccinated, the parents in these educated households have determined that the numbers argue against vaccination.

                    • northshoredoc

                      The outbreaks occur due to lack of vaccination you idiot.

                      The scientific evidence is uncontroversial and conclusive if you vaccinate with two doses of MMR vaccination your are vastly less likely to develop measles if you come into contact with an infectious vector.

                    • KJT

                      “In the absence of studies showing vaccinated children to be healthier than those unvaccinated”

                      What absence of studies?

                      Obviously you live in a fact free zone.

                      Did you miss the disappearance of smallpox, polio, diphtheria, and, until anti-vaccination nutters popped up we were on the verge of getting rid of TB, measles, whooping cough and mumps.

                      The many children including my mother who had serious side effects from polio, which is unheard of these days.

          • Colonial Viper 11.2.1.2.2

            Like all non-emergency medical treatment, vaccinations should be purely voluntary and require patients to be fully informed before they are asked for their consent.

            Re: science. Today it serves corporate greed more than anyone else. So fuck having blind faith in it.

            • McFlock 11.2.1.2.2.1

              the math angle didn’t work out for you, huh?

              • northshoredoc

                I see the two anti vaccination lunatics are at it again – good on you for trying to talk sense to them McFlock – not sure why you bother as they refuse to listen to the scientific data.

              • Colonial Viper

                What, reducing the chance of death by 1 in 20,000?

                • McFlock

                  In a population of 4 million, with zero immunisation somehow giving the same population immunity as 84% immunisation, and if your math isn’t complete shit, then yes. But it would suck to be one of those 200 dead.

            • Chooky 11.2.1.2.2.2

              CV +100

            • KJT 11.2.1.2.2.3

              As the evidence shows that Chiropractors are infinitely more dangerous than vaccination, I think you should reconsider that.

              I agree with you on many things CV, but being anti-science is not one of them.

              • Colonial Viper

                Oh fuck off KJT, your maths and judgement are both pretty good, but do you want me to start listing all the major mishaps which have occurred around vaccinations, including millions of people in the 50’s and 60’s infected with monkey viruses, or the UK having to pull the measles vaccine in the 1990’s due to many many reports of dangerous fevers in children, the Canadian vaccine factory which was found to not meet safety standards but which all the reports on have been kept secret, or maybe a NZ example where parents of infants were assured that the $200M MeNZ B vaccine would protect their babies but it turned out the immunity only lasted 6 months or less.

                On the other hand, chiropractors have been practicing in NZ since post World War 1 and the number of deaths caused by chiropractic care over that time period is probably less than that caused by lightning.

                One other fast fact: a healthy person who uses neurofen or voltaren frequently increases their risk of stroke by ~100%.

                Pick your poison.

  11. fisiani 12

    Happy 4th July Independence Day to all US citizens

  12. hellonearthis 13

    I always have trouble sharing your posts on Google+ not sure why.
    Can anyone else share the standard posts on Googles social network Google+ ?

    • Draco T Bastard 13.1

      I don’t have any problems sharing on Google+ through the link on the page.

      • hellonearthis 13.1.1

        I don’t see that link when I read via RSS.
        Just tried that on page g+ to share and it failed too.
        Tried with adblock disabled and no luck.
        Using Win7 and Chrome browser.

        • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1.1

          Sounds like it’s the RSS feed having the problem which I don’t use.

          • hellonearthis 13.1.1.1.1

            I would have thought that too but I get the same results using the +1 chrome extension and when I use the share on google that you mentioned that is on the page.

            • hellonearthis 13.1.1.1.1.1

              I’ve tried 3 different browsers. Looking at old blog posts I see there are no G+ shares.

              I also notice that the G+ share is trying to link to the front page of the standard that mentions the story, it uses that text and those pictures on the g+ attempted share and not the text of the picture from the stories page itself.

  13. joe90 14

    I’m still not sure but I don’t think this is satire.

    I don’t even know where to start on sharing some of the wisdom that was expressed by our state legislators during this hearing. No, actually I do. I give you the honorable Sen. Brandon Smith, R-Hazard:

    As you (Energy & Environment Cabinet official) sit there in your chair with your data, we sit up here in ours with our data and our constituents and stuff behind us. I don’t want to get into the debate about climate change, but I will simply point out that I think in academia we all agree that the temperature on Mars is exactly as it is here. Nobody will dispute that. Yet there are no coal mines on Mars. There are no factories on Mars that I’m aware of.

    First of all, I did not make up that quote, it’s quite real.

    http://fatlip.leoweekly.com/2014/07/03/sen-brandon-smith-has-important-things-to-say-about-climate-change-mars/

  14. Adrian 15

    All that talk earlier about bacon and roasts and fried onions got me salivating. Luckily I’m a vegetarian, I only eat things that eat grass.

  15. North 16

    Wouldn’t it be fair of the Herald to print that this article by Muttonous/Lambus/Hosking/Man is from a contributor who is a vigorous GodKey shill ? Of course. But I can see the Herald’s two fingers vigorously gesturing. The Herald wants to do what it does, it can, and it will. “Democracy Under Attack” (or whatever the exact words were) defines that suppurating smear sheet.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11287241

    • Murray Olsen 16.1

      Hosking is disgusting, but we already knew that. My question is why hasn’t Labour got rid of Mallard? He’s one of the best weapons National has. Every time any of the others start gaining some traction, he comes up with something stupid.

  16. BM 17

    And the winner of this years election by a huge majority
    John Key and National.

    Wow, doesn’t that speak volumes about Cunliffe and the culture within Labour.

    • Puckish Rogue 17.1

      Much as I’d like this to be true not even Cunliffe would be that stupid (he wouldn’t would he?) so I’ll need to see a transcript or recording

      Though it would explain a few things about Labour and the left in general I suppose

      • BM 17.1.1

        I’m sure Amanda Gillies wouldn’t have lied.

        That was the way she took what Cunliffe said and now Cunliffe has to some how explain that he didn’t mean what she interpreted.

        If the media runs with this, it could get really bad, really fast for Cunliffe.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 17.1.1.1

          Men like you let us all down.

        • Puckish Rogue 17.1.1.2

          http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10232457/David-Cunliffe-I-m-sorry-for-being-a-man

          • Speaking to a room of mostly women in Auckland today, Cunliffe spoke of the “bullshit, deep-seated sexism” still prevalent in New Zealand.

          “It needs to stop,” he said .

          “I don’t often say it – I’m sorry for being a man,” Cunliffe said, “because family and sexual violence is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men.”

          I stand corrected BM, Cunliffe really is thicker then two short planks or he doesn’t really want to be PM

          • One Anonymous Bloke 17.1.1.2.1

            Stop the press! Labour leader’s remarks fail to find favour with partisan Tory hack!

            • crunchtime 17.1.1.2.1.1

              Fail to find favour with any clear-thinking individual, I would hope.

              Seriously, I seriously want the National goons to GTFO out of my parliament.

              And here’s David putting his foot in his mouth and failing yet again to show he is a leader. Everything else he said was great, then he apologises for being a man.

              Nobody should ever apologise for what they are.

              Only for what they do.

          • BM 17.1.1.2.2

            Christ, what a fucking idiot.

            National really lucked in, when Cunliffe took over, the man doesn’t have a political bone in his body.

            • Te Reo Putake 17.1.1.2.2.1

              Puckish Rogue may be many things, but he isn’t a fucking idiot. No, wait … maybe you’re right.

              • Puckish Rogue

                I’m pretty sure if I was trying to become leader of the country I wouldn’t insult half the population

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  …because personal responsibility means it’s someone else’s fault anyway.

                • Te Reo Putake

                  I assume you’re referring to Cunliffe’s openness about the problem of male violence. If he insulted anyone, it was the percentage of men who abuse women and kids. I’m hoping a lot of Kiwi men are going to see the essential truth in what he has said, just as most Australians understood Rudd when he said sorry to the indigenous peoples of Australia.

                  Look, I get that empathy is not your strong suit, PR, but it doesn’t mean your knackers are going to fall off if you commit yourself to doing the right thing for the majority of Kiwis. And, yes, children and women are the majority. And women have the vote these days, so in electoral terms, it may be a decider, just not in the way you are hoping for.

                  • Tom Jackson

                    It was a stupid thing to say because it’s obvious ammunition for the papers and the talkback Taliban, who will use it to rark up and mislead voters that Labour probably needs.

                    Cunliffe could have made the same point in any number of ways that wouldn’t have provided ready ammunition to the loonies. Now we’ll get another two weeks of pointless shite about feminazis and man hating instead of policy discuss. Another two weeks closer to an election that Labour will almost certainly lose. Along with Mallard’s moa nonsense, it’s just another own goal.

                    I think it’s time to face the fact that Cunliffe is just not good enough. Unfortunately, there’s nobody else on the left of politics in NZ who is any good either. New Zealand workers deserve better than these useless cretins.

                    • Russell Belding

                      Agree with you Tom Jackson. Apologizing for being a man is not being a man. His following remarks made more sense “man up and stop the bs”. If David had said only that so much the better for his credibility as PM material.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    If you think this is going to play well to the majority of the voting public then you’re going to be sorely disapointed

          • fender 17.1.1.2.3

            Nothing wrong with a man feeling sorry and ashamed to belong to the group that most often perpetuates violence.

            • thecard 17.1.1.2.3.1

              On behalf of all men I accept Cunliffe’s apology.

            • Puckish Rogue 17.1.1.2.3.2

              He should apoligise for getting labour supporters hopes up that he might actually win the next election

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Why, because he expressed a common feeling that many men before him have articulated? Especially in this context:

                “I’m sorry to be a man” Shahrukh Khan

                Mark Longley, White Ribbon trustee and father of Emily explains, “As a parent that has lost a child, you are always trying to make sense of the tragedy. I donate my time to White Ribbon in the hope that no other family ever has to go through what we have endured.
                “White Ribbon is about men taking responsibility. As men, we can change the behaviour of our mates. If just one of her boyfriend’s mates had not remained silent, my daughter Emily could be alive today.

                I expect if I search I can find quite a few of you wingnuts paying lip service to such things, but why bother? It’s not like you’d take personal responsibility for past comments anyway.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  I’m not sorry to be a man because theres no reason to be sorry, there are certainly a lot of men that need to apoligise but not because of their gender

                  Hes suggesting that being man means we do bad things well speak for yourself Cunliffe because I don’t do what hes suggesting

                  Sounds quite similar to suggesting all men are rapists which is a road we don’t want to go down

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Yes, I understand that you simply don’t get it.

                    Then again, your political bias relies on you not getting it, so there’s that too.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      If you think that lumping all men in with those that hurt their families is a good idea then good on you but there’ll be a lot of men and women out there insulted by this

                    • McFlock

                      the thing is, pr, that not a lot of people work as hard as you do at being offended by everything someone in Labour says or does.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      It’s a problem across all strata of society from MFAT to Titford, trivialised and under-reported; I’m sure you tut-tut and feign outrage when the media presents their cherry-picked examples for you to dwell on, and I’m equally sure that when it comes to the hard yards (like now) you’re down the road with Key and McCully.

                      Personal responsibility means it’s not my problem.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      He could have said I’m proud to be the type of man that doesn’t commit domestic violence, a real man doesn’t harm his family a real man protects and nurtures his family but I’m ashamed of the men that don’t

                      Something like that but no “Yeah, Nah” Cunliffe has to lump all men in together

                    • McFlock

                      He could have said I’m proud to be the type of man that doesn’t commit domestic violence, a real man doesn’t harm his family a real man protects and nurtures his family but I’m ashamed of the men that don’t

                      He’d be a moron if he did:
                      headline: “Cunliffe denies beating his wife”.

                    • Tom Jackson

                      Yes it is, but saying dumb stuff like this doesn’t help.

                      Sure enough, I had to pop out to the supermarket and it was all over the radio and everyone was having a laugh.

                      It’s bad enough having a hostile media, but when the leader says stupid things, it’s hopeless.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Yes, much better to sweep rape culture under the carpet for the moment, we can discuss this later at a more appropriate time.

                    • Tom Jackson

                      Ir’s fine to talk about male problems with domestic violence, but a faux apology is risible. There personal apologies and institutional apologies make sense, but apologising on behalf of a gender is incoherent.

                      The worst thing is that everyone appears to agree that men should do something about domestic violence, but Cunliffe’s idiotic apology has managed to overshadow that.

                      Another loss for the identity politics clowns.

                    • Tom Jackson

                      He could have said I’m proud to be the type of man that doesn’t commit domestic violence, a real man doesn’t harm his family a real man protects and nurtures his family but I’m ashamed of the men that don’t

                      If he’d said that, it would have been on topic.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      What he said was “I’m sorry for being a man right now.”

                      What man, representing his party, wouldn’t feel a little bit foolish to be addressing a group of women about rape culture?

                      I bet I can quote-mine some choice stuff out of John Key if I’m allowed to just delete the end of his sentences.

                      Let’s play.

                      “We would love to see wages drop.”

                    • Tom Jackson

                      What man, representing his party, wouldn’t feel a little bit foolish to be addressing a group of women about rape culture?

                      1) What man with a brain wouldn’t find some way of phrasing it that didn’t undermine the whole point he was trying to make?

                      2) Because “rape culture” is an airy fairy piece of unempirical 70s nonsense dreamed up in womens’ studies seminar rooms, and promoted by people who are more interested in imposing their crackpot theories on society than in actually doing something about rape or domestic violence. They’re not interested in actual victims, but in promoting their weird, quasi-religious views. It’s the sort of thing that gets airtime in the less rigorous of the social sciences where things like evidence and argument are secondary to righteousness and fervour.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      The National Party’s response to a 40% rise in sexual violence in Christchurch is to close the Christchurch rape crisis centre.

                      I feel sorry to be a man right now.

                    • felix

                      I bet I can quote-mine some choice stuff out of John Key if I’m allowed to just delete the end of his sentences.

                      Let’s play.

                      “We would love to see wages drop.”

                      Oh don’t be silly OAB. You haven’t cut anything off that sentence.

                    • crunchtime

                      There is a BUNCH of reasons why a man who wishes to be the next leader of the country should not apologise for being a man.

                      1. Don’t give people reason to call you “weak”. You may have noticed that people tend to vote for people who are perceived, accurately or no, as a “strong leader”.
                      2. You can help how you behave, but you can’t help what you are. So why apologise for it?
                      3. It’s just another stereotype. Sure, there are loads of useless unmanly and even horrible men out there. But they are a minority.
                      4. 40% of domestic violence is committed by women. That’s a minority, but it’s a very large minority. So characterising domestic violence as a “man thing” is misrepresenting the facts. A leader should be in better command of the facts than this.
                      5. Blame the behaviour and the culture. Not some statistical grouping of individuals.
          • thecard 17.1.1.2.4

            R.I.P The NZ Labour party 4 June 2014.

            After a short ongoing battle with gaffes and in fighting finally passed away quietly into insignificance.

            • BLiP 17.1.1.2.4.1

              So says a commentator who doesn’t know what month we’re in.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                😆

                • jcuknz

                  Not as funny as what sparked it 🙂
                  John Key suggests the person should be looking for another job … I think the speech writer should too.

        • Vicky32 17.1.1.3

          “I’m sure Amanda Gillies wouldn’t have lied.”

          Seriously? Amender Gullies as she used to pronounce her name, would need intensive education in order to become a moron.

    • Murray Olsen 17.2

      Key should apologise for not being a man. A man takes responsibility, a word which seems lacking in the NAct dictionary. But then Key’s government just appointed a sex offender ex-army thing to an important government position, and a bit of spousal abuse is not unknown within the wider party.
      Key’s response to Cunliffe’s speech shows that keeping rape culture going is high on the NAct agenda.

  17. Te Reo Putake 18

    Excellent commitment from Labour on proper funding for education, support and prevention around family violence. Makes an interesting contrast to National’s attitude of bashing the Women’s refuge movement and pretending that sexual violence doesn’t happen.

    “Labour says it will spend $60 million over four years to halt family and sexual violence if it gets into government.

    Leader David Cunliffe is in Auckland today where he will release the party’s policy on reducing family violence.

    “On average 35 New Zealanders are killed by a member of their family every year, and one in three women experience intimate partner violence. Last year 20,000 women and children sought the help of Women’s Refuge,” Mr Cunliffe said.

    “This is totally unacceptable. It has a devastating physical and emotional impact on the lives of a great many of our women and children. Labour will work towards its elimination.”

    Mr Cunliffe will announce a package of measures for immediate action, as well as longer-term solutions.

    “We will adopt an action plan to eliminate violence against women and children.We will provide $60 million over four years for family and sexual violence to support front-line services, primary prevention and education,” Mr Cunliffe said.

    Labour would reform the justice system to provide “real justice to survivors while upholding the right to be presumed innocent” and review prosecution guidelines and the operation of protection orders.

    “As Labour Party leader, I am determined that we address the causes and consequences of family violence but this cannot be achieved in a piecemeal manner or without a unified effort across government agencies and NGOs,” he said.

    The action plan would be led from within the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet. “

    • ianmac 18.1

      During QT questions were asked of National about how come some millions were being spent on high tech surveillance but front-line services were having their services cut. Answers underwhelming.

  18. fisiani 19

    78 days till John Key gets three more years.

    • fender 19.1

      Your credibility is shot, only yesterday you said he only had 79 days left in the job…

  19. BM 20

    Cunliffe needs to go for the trifecta.

    1.Apologize for being a man

    2.Apologize for being a white man

    3.Apologize for being a wealthy white man

    C’mon David we know you can do it.!

    • aerobubble 20.2

      Should he first apologize to the poor…

      …the victims of bad government.

    • Jester 20.3

      I’m just stoked that David and Grant now have something in common.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 20.3.1

        The take-home message from Jester today is: Homophobic Bigotry.

        Bigots: embodying National Party values every day.

    • freedom 20.4

      here is the bit of the quote that scares BM + co the most
      “”So the first message to the men out there is: wake up, stand up and man up and stop this bullshit!””

      • BM 20.4.1

        I don’t beat my partner, I don’t rape women.
        There’s nothing I have to man up over.

        Cunliffe can go shove this collective guilt bullshit up his arse.

        • freedom 20.4.1.1

          Only you know the amount of times in your own life where your inaction has accommodated violence on others. If you choose to restrict the idea Cunliffe is highlighting only as applying to women and children, you fail to fully understand what it means to man up.

          • BM 20.4.1.1.1

            I know of no men who would walk away from a situation where a guy is beating/raping a woman.

            Outside of a gang environment it just doesn’t happen.

            • One Anonymous Bloke 20.4.1.1.1.1

              Gang environments and MFAT*. FIFY

              *and Parker/Hales and Clint Rickards.

            • freedom 20.4.1.1.1.2

              If you read what I said BM, I said “violence on others” I do not restrict my comments on violence to just that violence perpetrated against women and children.

            • Tracey 20.4.1.1.1.3

              this issue is over your head if your comment reflects what you think this is about.

              prime presented his full comment in context followed by keys poor attempt at humour and rugby clubs comment revealled more about key than cunliffe, like some here key doesnt “get” that the culture that allows such levels of domestic and sexual violence is far wider than just those doing the beating and raping.

              cunliffe tried to treat the issue with respect. key made a blokey rugby joke.

              nuff said .

        • One Anonymous Bloke 20.4.1.2

          Not guilt, responsibility. Remember that? It’s that thing you pay lip service to.

        • Murray Olsen 20.4.1.3

          Or what? Will he be picking up teeth? Bahahaha. Internet tough guy. Bloody moron.

      • Tom Jackson 20.4.2

        That message was completely obscured by the stupid apology – a campaigner against violence even complained about this on the radio, and she was right.

        Cunliffe was an utter numpty for saying that. It’s tipped him over the “unelectable” line. What a plonker.

        • freedom 20.4.2.1

          No election is ever decided on one topic in isolation, but it is fair to say the violence exploding across our society will play a bigger role in this election than any previously seen.

          The thing is Tom, despite the MSM believing that NZ is full of brainless stimulus-response automatons, I give kiwis more credit. Many people do still have their own thoughts. In a week or so once the “numpty” is scraped off the top, those people will personally revisit the message underneath and when put against the user-pays ambulance at the bottom of the cliff which is National’s policy, Labour come out of this offering a strong prevention-focused policy which can accommodate the other policies of the left and should quickly yield tangible long term and long overdue results. “Unelectable?” Don’t bet the house on it mate.

        • BM 20.4.2.2

          I had a thought about this.

          I don’t think Davids quite as thick as what’s been shown.

          What I think were seeing here is David Cunliffe thinking beyond the election, he knows the chances of the left winning are unbelievably slim so he’s going to spend his time consolidating his position as the labour party members number choice as labour leader.

          He knows he won’t win the election so his focus has gone on winning the upcoming leadership challenge.

          Live to fight another day.

    • dimebag russell 20.5

      @bm
      You need to apologise for being a jerk and a waste of space.
      why are you here.
      why are you anywhere?
      everywhere you go becomes foul immediately.

  20. thecard 21

    How can you win when the fail is so strong in the leader ?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10232457/David-Cunliffe-I-m-sorry-for-being-a-man

    [lprent: Doesn’t relate to anything in the post. Looks like an astroturf by a troll. Moved to OpenMike. Banned 4 weeks. ]

    • hoom 21.1

      Nothing fail about that. Very brave & impressive in my opinion.

      • TheContrarian 21.1.1

        I don’t know – I thought it could be more positive. “I’m sorry for being a man” sounds defeatist.

        Personally I am proud and unapologetic to be a man because as a man I can try and affect positive change among other men.

        • dimebag russell 21.1.1.1

          @contrarian
          oh. so you are perfect huh.
          typical tory.
          always trying to tell other people what to do.

          • TheContrarian 21.1.1.1.1

            Far from perfect
            Far from a tory
            Telling no-one what to do.

            Thanks anyway.

        • freedom 21.1.1.2

          Is the rest of the Cunliffe quote positive enough for you?
          “”So the first message to the men out there is:
          wake up, stand up and man up and stop this bullshit!””

    • BLiP 21.2

      [groan] . . . why, Cunliffe, why? First, the issue isn’t all about you and, second, you know exactly what the MSM is going to do with a statement like that. This isn’t the time for self-indulgent public displays of white, middle-class, touchy-feely, male angst . . . this is a time to be proud about being a New Zealander and facing up to the tough issues with resolve, not sorrow. FFS!

      (yeah, yeah – I’ll shut up about Labour until after the election but, seriously, get your shit together.)

      • Kiwiri 21.2.1

        It is ok, BLiP, and I am fine with Cunliffe’s speech.

        If it wasn’t for that line, his speech at the Women’s Refuge symposium and the funding pledge for family violence services would likely not have been reported or gone on the mainstream media.

        It would be a good opportunity for Women’s Refuge and similarly aligned bodies to issue press releases to build on the publicity .

      • Colonial Viper 21.2.2

        Two additional points to that which you raise, BLiP.

        Firstly, these Labour policies won’t win Labour any net votes because there are no net votes to be won on the basis of gender issues. This election is all about the economy. Or it should be.

        It’s a long standing trend in this country that women prefer to vote National instead of Labour (National Mum and Labour Dad). Will this speech noticeably sway female voters away from National and towards Labour? Doubtful. It may harden already existing support for Labour though.

        IIRC NZ women were twice as likely to vote National as Labour in 2011.

        Secondly, the policy released to day has a significantly less than zero chance of ‘eliminating violence against women and children’. Engage in positive campaign hyperbole by all means, but that’s all it is.

  21. Draco T Bastard 22

    The Central Paradox of the 21st Century

    Our unheard of affluence as consumers, our precarious existence as workers both stem from the same source: inexorable productivity increases. Every year, as technology advances we can make more goods and services with fewer inputs of labour and capital. It used to take dozens of men to unload a ship. Today one man on a computer and another on a crane are faster than 100 longshoremen could ever be. When I started in television, producing a broadcast quality news story required a cameraman, soundman, editor, reporter, producer, and transmission engineer. Today, one person can fulfil all of those functions and generally will get paid less than any one of us used to.

    Ever since the invention of agriculture ten thousand years ago, we have learned that from the sweat of our brow we will earn our daily bread. This deep-seated truth is now out of date. Capitalism and technology have in large part solved the problem of supply. We need to solve the problem of demand. The first step is to realize we live in a post scarcity economy, that austerity is not the answer. The second stem is to recognize we need to divorce work from consumption. Otherwise, technological progress will impoverish us rather than enrich us and that would be tragic, ironic, and absurd.

    People are waking up to the fact that our present socio-economic system doesn’t work. It leaves many living in poverty while a few live like gods.

    This means that we need to change the system but what should we base those changes upon?

  22. yeshe 23

    Just what we need in these shaky isles .. from the Guardian today re proof of earthquakes’ relationship with fracking in Oklahoma …

    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jul/03/oklahoma-earthquakes-fracking-waste-water-wells

  23. Morrissey 24

    Graham Bell continues to run amok on The Panel
    Radio NZ National, Tuesday 1 July 2014
    Jim Mora, Graham Bell, Denise L’Estrange-Corbet, Zara Potts
    PART ONE OF TWO

    Incredibly, this show just keeps on getting worse. The talent pool is clearly down to rock bottom: today was the second time in three weeks that the bellyaching old ex-cop Graham Bell was on. That’s too often; he doesn’t have much interesting to say at the best of times, and he’s getting increasingly irrational in his statements and bullying in his behaviour. If you’ve ever wondered what the moral and intellectual tenor of the police after-hours drinking session might be like, tune in when Bell is on. In the enforced absence of strong personalities like Gordon Campbell or Bomber Bradbury, none of the other Panelists dares to contradict him….

    Open mike 10/06/2014

    It’s not just worse in terms of quality, but it’s even more callous, more depraved, and more shameless. Today, however, the early part of the pre-show segment (the 15 minutes of light chat from 3:45 p.m., billed by host Jim Mora as “What the WOOOOOORLD’s talking about”) was simply vacuous, as they discoursed in lighthearted fashion about a range of topics….

    ZARA POTTS: Now we all know that after-hours access to emails and ever-increasing reach of technology means that we’re all working longer and harder, but China is facing an epidemic of overwork which is leading to employees literally working themselves to death. According to China Radio International, sixteen hundred people in China work themselves to death every day.
    JIM MORA: Every DAY?
    DENISE L’ESTRANGE-CORBET: Sixteen HUNDRED?
    ZARA POTTS: Sixteen hundred. Which equates to more than six hundred thousand people a year.
    MORA: I know it’s a big country, but that sounds….
    ZARA POTTS: That’s MASSIVE, isn’t it.
    MORA: That sounds ridiculous.

    The light-heartedness continued for the next few topics. A few minutes later, they focused on fashion, in particular the return of the pocket….

    MORA: I like pockets, but there was a trend away from pockets, wasn’t there, and for a while you couldn’t buy a shirt with a pocket in it.
    DENISE L’ESTRANGE-CORBET: I LIKE pockets!
    MORA: Yep. I like pockets.
    DENISE L’ESTRANGE-CORBET: I think they’ve been treated quite badly, pockets.
    GRAHAM BELL: Modern shirts, you’ve got nowhere to put your pens.

    ….[A long pause, then on to the next topic. They maintain the same light-hearted tone, but this time it’s for something altogether more serious. Like fearful, obedient commissars in Maoist China, these people know the correct stance to take towards an officially designated target]….

    MORA: Now, Julian Assange on the catwalk.
    DENISE L’ESTRANGE-CORBET: [highly amused] Yes!
    MORA: How’s he going to manage this?
    ZARA POTTS: Well, it hasn’t stopped him, his asylum claim hasn’t stopped him from doing all sorts of things. Even last week he opened rapper MIA’s New York concert with a ten minute Skype chat, so he’s pretty busy.
    DENISE L’ESTRANGE-CORBET: I thought he couldn’t leave though.
    ZARA POTTS: He does it all on his computer.
    DENISE L’ESTRANGE-CORBET: Oh, right.
    ZARA POTTS: This is Vivienne Westwood’s son Ben, and as part of London Fashion Week, he is going to take the catwalk to Julian Assange in the Ecadorian embassy.
    GRAHAM BELL: [derisive snort] Ha!
    DENISE L’ESTRANGE-CORBET: [querulous tone] Howwwww?
    GRAHAM BELL: Some people will do ANYTHING to get publicity.
    DENISE L’ESTRANGE-CORBET: Ha ha ha ha ha!
    ZARA POTTS: Ha ha ha ha ha! Yes, it’s not because he cuts a particularly dashing figure or wears clothes THAT well. The whole thing is a little bit more political than that. Ben Westwood is saying that he wants Julian Assange in his show so that Assange doesn’t slip into obscurity.
    MORA: There’s not much danger of that though, is there.
    ZARA POTTS: No. He’s wanting to highlight his plight.
    DENISE L’ESTRANGE-CORBET: So he’s going to be modeling the clothes.
    ZARA POTTS: Yes.
    GRAHAM BELL: It’ll be the look for the very OILY character. Hm hm hm hm hm.
    DENISE L’ESTRANGE-CORBET: Yeowww!
    GRAHAM BELL: Hm hm hm hm hm.
    MORA: How do they put a runway into an embassy? It’s basically just a big HOUSE, isn’t it.
    ZARA POTTS: Maybe they’ve got a big hallway. The collection has been influenced by Clint Eastwood’s Western films and also Assange’s “combat beret look”.

    ….[General snickering, snorting and guffawing]….

    ZARA POTTS: And there is also a garment with Julian Assange’s image printed on it. He he he he he!
    DENISE L’ESTRANGE-CORBET: Ha ha ha ha ha!
    GRAHAM BELL: Ho ho ho ho ho! Can’t WAIT!
    MORA: Ha ha ha ha ha!
    ZARA POTTS: The soundtrack is from The Good, The Bad and The Ugly, so that will be something to, uh, see….

    ….Mercifully, the time pips sound. Time for the four o’clock news….

    END OF PART ONE.

    I sent Jim Mora the following message during the show….

    What’s so funny about the plight of political dissidents?
    Dear Jim,

    I was extremely disappointed to hear you and your guests, yet again, making light of the state persecution of Julian Assange. 

    If The Panel had been on the air thirty years ago, no doubt you would have been guffawing at the plight of another designated enemy, Nelson Mandela. 

    Yours sincerely,

    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

    • Vicky32 24.1

      “I sent Jim Mora the following message during the show….”

      Was there any response or acknowledgement?

      • Morrissey 24.1.1

        Was there any response or acknowledgement?

        No there wasn’t. Although, to be fair, I must acknowledge that Jim Mora does reply sometimes, and has even, on a couple of memorable occasions, read my emails out live during the show.

  24. Clean_power 25

    Honestly, who writes Mr Cunliffe’s speeches? That person is a true saboteur.
    Perceptions matter and in politics that is essential.

  25. karol 26

    Lucy Lawless in today’s NZ Herald, on climate change:

    The New Zealand Government talks about the importance of science but ignores the most critical threat to life on earth since the advent of nuclear arms.

    Instead, the Prime Minister lulls the thinking Kiwi mind to sleep as he makes anodyne pronouncements on all the things we New Zealanders don’t care about. I often wonder if he isn’t right. What do we actively care about any more?

  26. Draco T Bastard 27

    So beavers are getting themselves resettled in Britain against the wishes of the government there. But in reading that I noticed this passage which relates very well to what the government just did to our forests:

    Just as forests in Britain are desperately short of the dead wood that many species need, our rivers are desperately short of the submerged wood on which a wide range of aquatic life depends. The branches that beavers drag into the water provide shelter for fish, amphibians and invertebrates, and food for creatures such as freshwater shrimps, caddis larvae and water hog-lice on which many other species depend for their survival. Their dams help to hold back floods, prevent scouring and erosion and stabilise rivers’ banks and beds. They also filter out the sediments containing faecal bacteria, reducing the risks of contamination and disease.

    We’ve been doing a lot of damage to our ecosystem for a long, long time. About time we started to let it regrow.

  27. NZ Femme 28

    Rolf Harris sentenced to 5 years 9 months.

    Judges sentencing notes: (TW for descriptions of sexual assaults of minors)

    http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/sentencing-remarks-mr-j-sweeney-r-v-harris.pdf

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