Open mike 04/08/2011

96 comments on “Open mike 04/08/2011 ”

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1. Pete George 1

   4 August 2011 at 7:10 am

   National’s Nikki Kaye and Labour’s Jacinda Ardern have their say in the Herald: Broadsides: Preventing child abuse. Summarising:

   Nikki Kay:

   The truth is that for every child that makes the paper or even makes it to the emergency department there are many more that suffer in silence behind closed doors with nobody to help them.

   We also need be clear that, regardless of what measure a government or a community can take, the final responsibility rests with the individuals who abuse these children and the families that allow abuse to be hidden.

   Preventing child abuse and neglect requires not only a response from government but also requires a social change which can only happen with the help of all New Zealanders.

   Some of these issues are complex, but we have turned around damning social problems like drink driving before. It requires political will, intelligent policy, but most of all a strong commitment by all New Zealanders to say at every opportunity that it is NOT ok.

   Jacinda Ardern

   There are some things we don’t need to be told; we just know. Shamefully for all New Zealanders, our appalling child abuse rates is one of those things. Surely then, it’s time to stop all the chat, the lamenting, the writing of discussion documents. Surely, it’s time to act?

   I am under no illusion that there is a quick fix to ridding New Zealand of child abuse and neglect and just as many of the answers and solutions as to how we can protect our children will come from within communities as they will from parliament. But we cannot ignore our responsibility to act. That’s why, ultimately, I am glad that the Government has released a Green Paper for Vulnerable Children.

   We will offer to work with the Government again on this issue. Because now is not the time for more words- it’s time to act.

   We need all politicians and all parties to talk together and to act together so we can improve things for our most vulnerable children. No party politics and no election should get in the way of this.

   It won’t just help children now, it will help them for life, and it will help their children.
   • mickysavage 1.1

     4 August 2011 at 8:16 am

     No party politics and no election should get in the way of this.

     Easier said than done.  Because poverty is the strongest indicator of abuse and to deal with poverty you have to deal with the distribution of resources.  WFF or “communism by stealth” as Key calls it pulled many working families out of poverty.  It has to remain and relief for the poorest on beneficiaries needs to be put in place.  But this requires the wealthy to pay more tax.

     Party politics has everything to do with it. 
     • Pete George 1.1.1

       4 August 2011 at 8:44 am

       Party politics has everything to do with it.

       That entrenched starting point for any issue is a major impediment to our country’s progress.

       It shouldn’t be “our party must win this argument”, it should be “what’s best for the kids”. The obsession with “poverty” is simplistic posturing, problems with kids are far more complex than that. Poverty is just one symptom of the problems, not a cause.
       • mickysavage 1.1.1.1

         4 August 2011 at 10:08 am

         It is not an entrenched starting point, it is a statement of reality.

         Debate the specifics PG

         1.  Is poverty an indicator of child abuse?
         2.  If so is the taxation system the means of redistributing wealth to ensure that minimum standards of living are available to all.

         I agree that abuse happens in all sectors but the correlation between poverty and abuse is mind numbingly significant.

         I am not in the least bit interested in party politics determining an approach to child poverty.  The solution itself drives my politics.

         This is what you don’t understand PeteG.  Lefties do not advocate for redistribution of wealth to score political points, we advocate for redistribution of wealth because it is the right thing to do, whether for dealing with child abuse of any other of a myriad of problems.
         • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1.1.1

           4 August 2011 at 11:27 am

           I agree that abuse happens in all sectors but the correlation between poverty and abuse is mind numbingly significant.

           I’m pretty sure that the link between financial stress and domestic violence has been proven to a high probability. It’s not just correlation any more.
           • McFlock 1.1.1.1.1.1

             4 August 2011 at 1:09 pm

             High deprivation index children have a rate of assault/neglect/maltreatment hospitalisation seven times higher than the least deprived.
                
       • Vicky32 1.1.1.2

         4 August 2011 at 6:09 pm

         Poverty is just one symptom of the problems, not a cause.

         It is one of the causes! That’s common sense.
         • McFlock 1.1.1.2.1

           4 August 2011 at 7:15 pm

           Agreed – poverty is the immediate common cause of many conditions that kill our kids. 
            
           There are causes closer to the condition (e.g. violence causing injuries), and causes less proximal (alienation of citizens in our modern industrial-capitalist society  creating a malaise that enables the wealthy to ignore others’ hardship), but poverty is a fundamental cause to many conditions, and we can reduce it dramatically with very little effort.

           Our government simply chooses not to.
     • aerobubble 1.1.2

       4 August 2011 at 11:36 am

       communism by stealth, as opposed to the rank stench of proto fascism where mainstream politicians dole out such remarks as ‘dream lifestyle’, ‘shouldn’t breed’ and might as well claim everyone whose poor is a waste of space and should crawl into a corner eat the damn cockroaches already. Key is told to spin, and what to spin, and the left is now a growing source of solutions, how that must unsettle our proto fascist elites.
2. logie97 2

   4 August 2011 at 7:24 am

   Remind us, who was it who said Working for Families is communism by stealth… and yesterday was praising it up? Who had a similar attitude towards KiwiSaver?
3. joe90 3

   4 August 2011 at 9:14 am

   NewScientist: Dust and ice ages.
4. pollywog 4

   4 August 2011 at 9:19 am

   Our Blue Canoe

   Move your paddle silently through the water.

   First teaser of the journey i’ll be joining next year. I feel so privileged as it encompasses everything i believe to be true. From Pasifikans as One People One Culture, Tangata o Te Moana Nui a Kiwa separated by the sea, but belonging more to it than we think any land belongs to us, to ‘dead zones’ of ocean degradation created through increased CO2 emissions, to extinction of species by over fishing, to pollution by plastics and noise…

   If there’s one thing to be learnt it’s that sacrifice outweighs desire. The needs of the many over the wants of a few.

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=UR_nk7ZEKcE&gl=NZ
   • joe90 4.1

     4 August 2011 at 10:14 am

     Looks to be an awesome project to be involved with pwog, are you one of the fortunate few who gets to crew one of the canoes, on the movie crew or both?.
     • pollywog 4.1.1

       4 August 2011 at 11:46 am

       I’m one of the fortunate ones J90, and while crewing i’ll endeavour to get creative on the movie front also…

       http://pollywannacracka.blogspot.com/2011/08/symbolic-savages-suffering-nobly.html

       🙂
       • joe90 4.1.1.1

         4 August 2011 at 2:58 pm

         Watched the vids you’ve posted so I assume you’re one of the novices who’s off, next week?, on the adventure of a lifetime, lucky lucky man.
         I’m wondering if the 21st century bling that I could see on the vessel in the “Our Blue Canoe” trailer will have the bells and whistles to run an online diary because I’d love to follow your adventure.
         • Bored 4.1.1.1.1

           4 August 2011 at 4:24 pm

           Lucky sod, wont speak too quickly as I have been out on the ocean and its big and wet and cold…and it keeps moving.

           Listened to a guy talk about Polynesian navigation skills, absolutely amazing skills based upon being able to mind matrix wave lengths, water colours, cloud types. birds etc etc, heaps of information stored in the navigators mind to analyse. Human computers doing impossible trips to and from small points on an enormous ocean to other small points on that ocean. No maps, compasses, atrolabes etc yet so long as they knew where they were coming from they knew where they were in relative terms. Well before we Euro “discovered” and mapped the Pacific.

           How are you going to navigate Polly?
           • pollywog 4.1.1.1.1.1

             5 August 2011 at 9:28 am

             I won’t be navigating at all B. I don’t even know how to sail or if i’m prone to seas sickness but i’m gonna find out and learn things the hard way 🙂

             Hopefully by the end of it, or at least mid way through, I’ll have a basic understanding of the concepts surrounding celestial navigation, be able to read the predominant swells and the reflections of distant islands and semi-predict weather patterns as well.

             I’m quite lucky in that I’ll be joining the second leg from San Diego to the Solomons. From what i understand, it’s pretty much a straight run following the sun as it tracks across the sky east to west with all the good winds and currents boosting us along in fine spirits.

             Hardly the test of seamanship and courage the crews faced in the roaring 40’s on leaving NZ in May , combined with the other tricky bits of navigation…reading stars, currents and wind patterns as they switched from the southern hemisphere to the northern on their way to Hawaii.

             Now, having arrived in San Francisco they get to chill a bit before meandering down to San Diego over the next month where they will lay up for 3 months over hurricane season before embarking on the second leg in January next year.

             On the whole it should take about 8-9 months including stops for reprovisioning and reconnecting with islands from Galapagos to Marquesas, Tahiti, Samoa ,Fiji… finishing in the Solomons for the 2012 Pacific Arts Festival, though the exact sail plan hasn’t been finalised.

             Oh man, I just can’t wait…

             BTW here’s a good read on how much the elders got around back in the day

             FLOATSAM AND JETSAM FROM THE GREAT OCEAN: OR, SUMMARY OF EARLY SAMOAN VOYAGES AND SETTLEMENT
             • vto …

               5 August 2011 at 9:34 am

               Looks amazing mr polly. I spend way too much time in the ocean, though never crossed an ocean. Just watch out or it will get into your blood and everything else will fall to one side. Bon voyage!
               • pollywog …

                 5 August 2011 at 10:02 am

                 thanks heaps…

                 I also had the opportunity to go on the first leg. I travelled to Auckland in April for some training and to meet the captain and crew and only planned on being there 3 days. Ended up being there 3 weeks, and painted the sails.

                 Though when the time came, i couldn’t just bail on my family here on a whim and a prayer, to leave the house unprepared over winter with no one to look after them, as I’m the stay at home parent while my lady works.

                 Now, it’s a case of getting their heads around me being gone for most of next year and me getting my head around the enormity of the challenge.

                 I’ve heard how tough it is for spouses of sailors with the pull of the sea in their veins. From the looks of it, it’s gonna be my next obsession and probably life mission.
             • marty mars …

               5 August 2011 at 10:03 am

               good one polly – enjoy and keep a diary – your write ups will be awesome. kia kaha e hoa!
               • pollywog …

                 5 August 2011 at 10:24 am

                 Chur bo !

                 When the time comes the diary/blog will become a book i hope to inspire kids with, but written in the style of old Pasifikan myths and legends using the magic jawbone.

                 here’s a taste.. in following on from this

                 Of time and tides

                 In the beginning was the word. The word was of IO and it was IO. Neither good nor evil is IO, but all that was good was in the word of it and all that was not was in the nothing. Then as now, IO is the one and the nothing, the I and the O to which all knowledge springs and flows and from which all that is and will ever be, is.

                 At first the word boomed across the nothing, shattering it, tearing from it the light, and as the light grew faster than the wind could carry the word, so did it echo amongst the heavens as they formed to become the 9. From thence until the time of man, time passed slowly.

                 Fire, never one to move slow, unless tamed, raged through the 9 as the spirit of the word settled to become embodied in the houses of the gods of old. From them was formed the cool waters and the dusts of the earth. All that people it came later, as the spirit of IO was once again moved to speak, this time across the tides of the waters.

                 Man upon his earthly arrival saw that this was good, the truth of which he still remembers in stories written of in the heavens, reflected in the waters and carried on the winds for those who walk the earth and sail its seas. Those chosen few still blessed in their ability to hear IO in the quiet of time, to see its signs in nature and to speak of the word with Maui’s magic jawbone. For nature is aught but the word of IO.

                 Many were the Pasifika men and women of old gifted with the godspeak by which the magic jawbone echoed their words across time. The jawbone gave meaning and understanding unto their children, wisdom and counsel to the enlightened as they sat around the fires, attuned to the spirits, sharing of the word that sang the fire of the wind of the stars to the waters and in turn, the waters to the earth.

                 With time on their side, the spirits of the gods of earth, wind, fire and water grew stronger. For some, the dark side of their nature held sway and colluded to hide from man the word of IO and IO itself. To keep sacred the secret of it, that man may not learn to become as the gods, but destined to remain in awe of the spirit of them and thus, in worship of the old ways.

                 So the restless tides ebbed and flowed in the lives of man and older did those gifted with the magic jawbone become. Less and less the word was told, where it became fewer and fewer of the children of Maui that could hear the godspeak of old. But for the undying spirit of IO hiding in plain sight, it would have come to pass that all man become blind to the vision of what may be and the promise to some of what surely in time they might become in spirit and flesh, gods.

                 ————————————————————————–

                 btw I’m also about to take up rock painting in the old Waitaha stylez. Being a rigger/rope dangler i’m looking to eventually hang off cliffs and paint big ass old looking stuff using traditional inks.

                 Though i’ll start with something more acessible and prominent. Lovin the idea of old school rural graffitti 🙂
                 • marty mars …

                   5 August 2011 at 11:00 am

                   Nice…

                   my old rugby coach Jim Whaanga always said when hitting the ruck, “make your presence felt” – you are doing that – your presence is felt and I can’t wait to get a copy of your book. Go hard!
                 • Bored …

                   5 August 2011 at 11:19 am

                   From one sea faring family to another who are about to become seafarers again, bon voyage! Wish I could come with you.
                 • pollywog …

                   5 August 2011 at 12:14 pm

                   RE : the book

                   What I plan to do is, in the spirit of the shared Pasifikan cultural heritage regarding myths and early heroes/exploits, get some chapters translated into different languages, then translated again back into English by a third party so i’m removed from the literal process.

                   The story then becomes as it might have been when our traditions were passed on orally and subtly changed with the passing of time, language and geography.

                   I want to see if the ‘magic jawbone’ still keeps the essence of the core truths hidden in the story when told by different authors and still makes it coherent for kids to understand when read to them as bedtime stories.

                   The book itself won’t be linear cos i’m not :). It will jump all over the place and be disconnected in feel so that in essence it could be from another place or time and be read as individual stand alone chapters imperceptible from traditional stories transliterated from original tellings.

                   Before the journey started, and in telling the crew in Auckland that i was going to deify them and turn them into gods, they laughed disbelievingly. The thing is, now more than ever, we as Pasifikans need to remind ourselves, and the world, of who we truly are, where we came from, where we’re headed and how we fit in the general scheme of things.

                   We need something to believe in rather than the constant lies of us being a violent, good for nothing but breeding for business underclass still hypocritically hung up on some christian ideal of a white god with a big stick looking to punish the unworthy.

                   Earth, wind, fire and water

                   Out of the darkness came the light and though the gods were born of the light of the word, they had within a spirit of darkness that could, and did, sometimes govern their actions. Forcing their godly selves to split and recreate themselves in their dark images.

                   So it was that the gods of fire, wind, earth and water became, and so it was that Man in many cultures chose, in various times, to follow and hold in highest esteem certain gods. The men of the east, north and west chose mostly to follow the dark gods of fire, earth and wind. Those from Pasifika chose mostly the gods of water, in both their spirits, dark and light, accepting of the dual nature of the gods that giveth, so too do they take away. For such is the ultimate nature of IO.

                   The dark gods, in exchange for unbridled worship, gave up the power that could be generated by the fire and wind of the earth and by the churning and heating of the waters to warm and sustain Man. For them that controlled this power, the high priests, was gifted untold riches. For a time, the fires of the earth burned abundantly, and from the power of heat was man able to change the elements and bend them to his will. As he did, the power and riches of the high priests grew. Their influence became consuming and obsessive. Paranoia reigned as the high priests, mirroring the gods became distrustful of each other

                   In their arrogance, the priests had assumed the power of gods. Many great things were they able to do in our own name. Many false wonders did they perform and many marvellous idols were they able to construct to the amazement of simple folk who wished for nothing more than a simple life as of old and but one god in nature which to marvel at.

                   Balancing the greed of Man by converting much of the unclean winds from the burning of the fires of earth, to the clean wind of air, that man may still live and breathe, took its toll on the gods of earth, wind, fire and water who were still dedicated to the light of the word of IO. And in his greed Man consumed more than could be balanced.

                   Slowly the life sustaining waters were becoming poisoned, as too the fields of the earth and the winds of the air. The trees, used for the boats of old to travel the waters, became thin on the ground. The fish that were once plentiful, told stories of the water becoming as fire, burning all that it touches and of places of death, where the winds cannot pass through from the heavens to become clean. Burning water also rained from the skies. The spirits of the dark gods echoed in the sounds of man as it tore through the waters and sought to overwhelm the fishes with the sheer volume of it.

                   In this time, unwanted aspects generated from the burning of the fires of the earth became plentiful in the water, threatening to kill all who inhabit it. The peoples of Pasifika knew from old that when the waters die, so too does the earth and those who rely on it.

                   Though it appeared that Man in general, didn’t seem to care. Little thought was given to the generations of the future who would pay a high price for their foolish ancestor’s lustful greed and worship of the dark gods. The gods themselves had become powerless in their control as the ignorance of Man assumed godliness without the cleanliness of godly responsibility.

                   Okeanos, the Ancient One from which all waters flowed, as he was known in the tongue of the men from the north, chose the Dietermined Man to act in his name and invoke Te Mana o te Moana, to gather the 7 sisters of the sea and once again spread the word of IO that was lost in the nature of what man and the gods had become…blind with lust and greed, reckless with endangerment.

                   ————————————————————————–

                   ..and don’t worry B. You’ll all be with me in spirit 🙂
                   • joe90 …

                     5 August 2011 at 1:05 pm

                     I can recommend a fascinating book I’m reading, Tuwharetoa by John Te Herekiekie Grace, and I’ve almost finished the first part which covers the construction, preparation and the voyage of the Arawa canoe. It’s been hard work though because of the multitude of characters, their relationship to the other characters, the mile long names and the million and one details but thoroughly enjoyable.
                   • pollywog …

                     5 August 2011 at 5:47 pm

                     Cheers J.

                     I was talking to a Te Arawa voyager on one of the waka and was interested to note that their tribal lands are laid out in the shape of a canoe 🙂

                     Have you read Vaka – Tom Davis. It’s a bloody good read too. Spanning 300 years in the life of a canoe as it voyages, changes name and ownership through a number of generations to become the famed Takitimu
5. Lanthanide 5

   4 August 2011 at 9:38 am

   I couldn’t help but be cynical about the last line in this story:

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/5384841/Police-obscene-in-Christchurch-looter-case

   Here’s the opening paragraph:
   “The police’s handling of a man with Asperger’s syndrome caught looting after the Christchurch earthquake has been described as “cruel and obscene” by people calling for the case to be dropped.”

   Here’s the last line:
   “Police spokesman Grant Ogilvie said police had “extensive experience” in dealing with people with mental health issues or who had an intellectual impairment.”

   I have to wonder if this “extensive experience” comes from dealing with their own staff.
   • vto 5.1

     4 August 2011 at 9:43 am

     “extesive experience” could mean anything.

     mongrel mob have extensive experience in criminal investigations

     taito phillip field has extensive experience in fraud investigations

     US defence forces have extensive experience in dealing with people subjected to bombing campaigns

     What a crock. But I am glad that this case is not disappearing and that many people are following it through to the bitter end to ensure justice. Does anyone know if the police officer who gave the lad a black eye has been charged with assault yet?
     • aerobubble 5.1.1

       4 August 2011 at 11:49 am

       Police may have be hamstrung by the no tolerance law that forced them to treat this individual like any other. Secondly, likely people with disabilities are aware of their disability and so can innoculate themselves to wrong doing. When for instance does it become okay to treat someone with a compulsive disorder seriously? Was stealing lightbulbs during a mass social disruption event like the Earthquake justified that some nuance to policing be over looked due to the high level of social stress, new crime problems, and other new pressures on police. Was it likely that someone who knows they have a problem, justifiably incensed by something that usually would not have led to police action and with a lower iq might have provoked (alledegly) matters.

       So no. I think this incidient is a timely reminder that disasters throwup unintended consequences and everyone should just get some cold water and throw it over themselves. I do not believe the disabled community would want to make out that this is some case because there was a Earthquake, how often does that happen. If anyone is responsible its legislators who make laws up for disasters that invoke the zero tolerance proto fascism theory of government, pushing
       unstable people into the hands of overstretched, stressed, policing.

       Yes another nutting sentencing unsensible trust help the victims and so create more victims, a young
       man who could not help it and maybe police officers now worried about their jobs. Thanks again the SST clueless arrogance wins threw.
       • Lanthanide 5.1.1.1

         4 August 2011 at 12:47 pm

         “Police may have be hamstrung by the no tolerance law that forced them to treat this individual like any other.”

         But they don’t have to charge everyone who commits a crime.
         • Deadly_NZ 5.1.1.1.1

           4 August 2011 at 6:51 pm

           Yes they do. They are not allowed to think. Leave it to the Horses they are told, they have bigger heads.
           • prism 5.1.1.1.1.1

             4 August 2011 at 7:56 pm

             They are allowed to think deadly nz. They can use diversion and they can decide when someone gets a warning if its a trivial offence too can’t they?
   • El Mutante 5.2

     4 August 2011 at 1:03 pm

     “Police spokesman Grant Ogilvie said police had “extensive experience” in dealing with people with mental health issues or who had an intellectual impairment.”

     Like that poor sod they managed to kill in the back of a patrol car some years ago?
   • Treetop 5.3

     4 August 2011 at 1:41 pm

     FFS Grant Ogilvie, Arie was held in police custody for 11 days. Murders can be bailed within a day or two. People detained under the mental health act can only initially be detained for 5 days. Did anyone from the police consult a psychologist in 11 days? (The police usually employ at least one organisational psychologist, but they probably need about five).
     • Treetop 5.3.1

       4 August 2011 at 1:45 pm

       Murderers (my spelling is not the best).
6. joe bloggs 6

   4 August 2011 at 9:52 am

   It’s disturbing to read that the death of AB Byron Solomon could have been prevented.

   The Coroners report indicates that HMNZS Canterbury was rushed into service and this contributed to the unnecessary and preventable death.

   A damned shame – so what does the then-Defense Minister have to say?
7. aerobubble 7

   4 August 2011 at 11:56 am

   Petrol abuse in outback Australia is a noted problem. Known to cause anti-social behavior amongst the poorest. Strange how our petrol heads often spend countless hours in the area of car exhausts and our neighborhoods become noise magnets as a result. Could we soon see petrol added to alcohol and drugs as yet another addiction warrenting time off work? If petrol fumes cause brain damage could employers sack people for high levels of the exhaust residues in employees blood?

   Not so smart after all to get a second hand part that destorys the ability of your engine to remain quiet and keep the suspension from destroy the road surfaces, add to brain damage to the list.
8. NickC 8

   4 August 2011 at 12:19 pm

   Gold:

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU4h6aQTbDk&feature=player_embedded
9. Lanthanide 9

   4 August 2011 at 12:47 pm

   Photos of the anthropocene. The captions are of course couched in denialist terms like “In this century the world’s supply may plummet.” when talking about an old oil field.

   http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/03/age-of-man/anthropocene-photography
10. PJ 10

    4 August 2011 at 1:36 pm

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5388471/SIS-mislead-public-Goff

    “The document was given to right wing blogger Whaleoil today by the SIS, which refused a Fairfax request several days ago for the briefing note to be released immediately.”

    This doesn’t seem kosher to me? A supposedly un-partisan organisation giving a document to a partisan blogger after denying the same priveledges to the (again supposedly) neutral media….
    • mickysavage 10.1

      4 August 2011 at 1:51 pm

      Agreed.  Why the slimy one should be preferred over a main stream media outlet, even one controlled by Murdoch is beyond me.
       
      Questions need to be asked.
      • Pete George 10.1.1

        4 August 2011 at 2:38 pm

        Like who applied first? Who applied correctly? Is it normal for someone to queue jump by demanding immediate release? There are many possibilities.

        Goff is making major accusations based on backing his memory 100% that he remembers specifically NOT seeing one document? How many documents does he look at? He remembers ALL of them?

        He’s on a hiding to nothing blowing this up into far more than it could and should have been.
        • mickysavage 10.1.1.1

          4 August 2011 at 2:56 pm

          Pete G
           
          In the same comment you have questioned Goff’s veracity and Fairfax Media’s competence both in favour of the Government and without the slightest shred of proof.  Perhaps we should wait for answers to the first questions.
          • Pete George 10.1.1.1.1

            4 August 2011 at 3:12 pm

            I’m not questioning Fairfax’s competence. They didn’t get an immediate release, but that could mean anything. Fairfax haven’t accused Whale or the SIS of anything. Whale may have applied first, it could be as simple as that (if not then I’m sure Fairfax will ask more questions).

            Goff’s situation is different. He said:
            “I was not shown that document. I never read that document. Warren Tucker is wrong.”
            (A notation on the document by Tucker said it was shown to Goff during one of his regular meetings with the opposition leader.)

            That’s a clear accusation that Tucker is wrong, in effect that he has incorrectly notated the document and is now lying about it. That’s serious – isn’t it?
            • Vicky32 10.1.1.1.1.1

              4 August 2011 at 6:38 pm

              That’s a clear accusation that Tucker is wrong, in effect that he has incorrectly notated the document and is now lying about it. That’s serious – isn’t it?

              Even though the predictable 3 News take on it, is that it’s another point against Goff!
          • Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1.2

            4 August 2011 at 4:03 pm

            Typical PG trolling.
            • Pete George 10.1.1.1.2.1

              4 August 2011 at 4:14 pm

              That’s a very weak response CV.

              This amounts to a document signed off as part of standard procedure versus Goff saying his memory is infallible. He can’t prove he hasn’t seen or read it. He’s already struggling for credibility. It’s going to be very tough for him to be convincing.
            • insider 10.1.1.1.2.2

              4 August 2011 at 4:17 pm

              Seems like Goff is the one acting troll-like here to be honest CV. He seems intent on shouting down anyone on this and removing any possiblity that he may be wrong. That’s highly risky if the documents show anything like a discussion taking place. I think Tucker is teaching him a bureaucratic lesson.
              • joe bloggs …

                4 August 2011 at 4:26 pm

                Not content with besmirching the reputation of a senior civil servant who has an impeccable record, now Goff’s blaming some vast right-wing conspiracy for Tucker releasing docs under the OIA to Whaleoil…

                As for Pagani’s views? … break out the tinfoil hats once again!

                Goff’s dog-tucker
                • Colonial Viper …

                  5 August 2011 at 12:15 am

                  What’s that sound? The sound of a self-congratulatory RWNJ echo chamber? meh.
    • Draco T Bastard 10.2

      4 August 2011 at 3:01 pm

      John Pagani addresses the same point here.

      For a security document, there are layers, mountainous layers of clearance to go through to release a document. Someone has expedited this document for politics.

      If the SIS took a political decision to collaborate with an agent of the National Party, it is treasonous.

      Needs a full investigation ASAP. Won’t get one out of this government though as they’ll need to cover their corruption.
      • Pete George 10.2.1

        4 August 2011 at 3:17 pm

        Think that through.

        For a security document, there are layers, mountainous layers of clearance to go through to release a document.

        So it might be feasible that they couldn’t immediately release it to Fairfax.

        Someone has expedited this document for politics.

        That’s a major assumption.
        Anyway, what would be the difference if Fairfax got it first?
        • Colonial Viper 10.2.1.1

          4 August 2011 at 5:56 pm

          That’s a major assumption.

          Yes it is. One which seems to fit the facts and is worth formally confirming or denying.
      • Andrei 10.2.2

        4 August 2011 at 4:04 pm

        No No – It’s called the Official Information Act and anybody can use it to get Official Information released to them provided certain criteria, spelled out in the Act, are met.

        I guess Mr Slater’s request met the requirements so he got what he asked for.

        Y’all gonna have to suck on it.
        • Treetop 10.2.2.1

          4 August 2011 at 4:58 pm

          Mr Tucker is not answering questions, but then he releases official information which can be misinterpreted and it tells me nothing except that Tucker’s judgement is lacking.

          Did someone else other than Tucker give consent for Slater to recieve info which is being disputed?

          The job of the SIS is to protect MPs not cause a rift with the leader of a political party.
          • insider 10.2.2.1.1

            4 August 2011 at 5:06 pm

            When it comes to the oia there is no requirement to worry about the reputation of the leader of the opposition – and rightly so. Do you actually realize what kind of world you are wanting to encourage treetop? It’s the kind of world the oia was created to prevent.
            • Treetop 10.2.2.1.1.1

              4 August 2011 at 5:23 pm

              I have no problem with the OIA except when information gets released to a right wing blogger who then plays politics with it and will milk it to the max when so much information is blacked out. Slater may end up being charged with slander and where will this leave Tucker?
              • law …

                4 August 2011 at 6:09 pm

                So information that is politically damaging can not be released to bloggers? or only right wing bloggers? Who makes the judgement call as to what is politically damaging?

                Slander? where did you get your bush lawyers degree? I would be asking for a refund.
                • Colonial Viper …

                  4 August 2011 at 6:16 pm

                  So information that is politically damaging can not be released to bloggers?

                  Oh yeah, let’s release the info to Right Wing bloggers but not a newspaper.

                  That’s how a good democracy works eh.

                  🙄
                • Treetop …

                  5 August 2011 at 6:20 pm

                  Slander is any defamation that is spoken and heard.
                  http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Libel+and+Slander

                  Who makes the judgement call to what is politically damaging?
                  Depends which government department is involved, who its minister is and that transparency is seen.
              • insider …

                4 August 2011 at 6:16 pm

                So are you saying that the oia is ok as long as it works for people you like? Did you know that opposition parties make oia requests all the time and make selective use of that information purely for political purposes. No right turn does similar to slater. Sounds like your real issue is that ‘your guy’ got caught out and is wearing the consequences, and it is embarrassing for you. Change your leader not the law if that’s the case
          • coge 10.2.2.1.2

            4 August 2011 at 8:44 pm

            OFGS. It’s not the SIS to blame here, they did what they are legally obligated to do. They did not “cause” anything. It’s Phil Goff fudging the truth, & bumbling handling of the matter.
        • jackal 10.2.2.2

          4 August 2011 at 5:32 pm

          Andrei

          I guess Mr Slater’s request met the requirements so he got what he asked for.

          The information holder can also withhold the information when:

          Making the information available would be contrary to a specific Act, or would be contempt of Court or contempt of Parliament, or in some sensitive cases (for example, information about terrorism), the existence of the information can be neither confirmed or denied, or the request is frivolous or vexatious or the information is trivial.

          Looks like the judgement call of the SIS is out of whack again.
          • Treetop 10.2.2.2.1

            4 August 2011 at 5:47 pm

            Zaoui could not defend himself due to information not being disclosed by the SIS.
          • law 10.2.2.2.2

            4 August 2011 at 6:12 pm

            You’ve got to be kidding. The information requested and supplied is none of those.
            • jackal 10.2.2.2.2.1

              4 August 2011 at 7:53 pm

              Cameron Slater’s request was vexatious. Do know what that word means law?
      • insider 10.2.3

        4 August 2011 at 4:13 pm

        I think Pagani may be onto something. OIAs often take a long time to review and process, even uncontroversial ones. My instant thought is that this has moved very quickly. He only sent it in on the 26th. I think that reflects Tucker’s annoyance at Goff’s public criticism so this is very nice “Yes MInister” payback. They are doing things by the book, hence Fairfax is having to go through the same process Slater did.
    • Andrei 10.3

      4 August 2011 at 4:40 pm

      The answer is now clear the Whale asked for the documentation that Phil Goff had seen the document, not the document itself, which is what Fairfax had demanded.

      And he got it..

      Somebody is gonna be dogtucker after this fiasco
      • jackal 10.3.1

        4 August 2011 at 5:14 pm

        Are you kidding Andrei, you actually believe what Cameron Slater says over Phil Goff? Slater has zero credibility. It appears that Warren Tucker took the document with him but Phil Goff did not see it. I fail to see what the big deal is there.

        I really hope that Slater keeps digging though, as the initial scandal of possible Mosad agents attaining false passports from New Zealand again needs a lot more sunlight. More questions need to be asked of John Key.

        Why the F did a Right-wing blogger get given the documentation by the SIS, which refused a Fairfax request several days ago for the briefing note? Could this have anything to do with the huge increase in funding the SIS has got under National?
        • Andrei 10.3.1.1

          4 August 2011 at 5:53 pm

          I know that on Thursday, 4 August 2011, 12:41 pm Phil Goff released this press statement and I thought this looks like it is a fairly unwise thing to be saying.

          And then a few hours later Cameron Slater released a document which shows unambiguously that Mr Goff’s statements in his press release are, shall we say charitably, incorrect.

          Those less charitable than myself might use another word that begins with L to describe Mr Goff’s words.

          Game Set and Match, I’d say
          • Colonial Viper 10.3.1.1.1

            4 August 2011 at 5:59 pm

            What you say is worth dog shit.
            • insider 10.3.1.1.1.1

              4 August 2011 at 6:27 pm

              Yes but contemporaneous notes speaks volumes
        • law 10.3.1.2

          4 August 2011 at 6:14 pm

          ” you actually believe what Cameron Slater says over Phil Goff? Slater has zero credibility. ” Jackal, you must be getting dizzy with all the spinning you are trying with that comment. This is not a case of Slater vs Goff, it is a matter of what was actually discussed between Goff and Tucker… Slater is just a messenger.
          • jackal 10.3.1.2.1

            4 August 2011 at 8:03 pm

            Slater is an agent of disinformation and has gained documents previously not released, even when requested using the same procedure. This is a case of John Key and Warren Tucker abusing their positions to undertake a smear campaign on Phil Goff. When it smells and looks like a bullshit, chances are it is. However this discussion now has its own thread.

            http://thestandard.org.nz/its-who-you-know/#comment-360484
      • mickysavage 10.3.2

        4 August 2011 at 5:29 pm

        How did he know what to ask for?  And how do you know what Fairfax asked for?

        It smells.
        • Anne 10.3.2.1

          4 August 2011 at 6:41 pm

          It smells alright ms. And when the RWFWs start trying to muddy the waters you know something smells.

          You have to wonder where John Key might fit into it too.
          • Carol 10.3.2.1.1

            4 August 2011 at 6:43 pm

            That’s my feeling, Anne. Curious that they keep attacking Goff and saying he’s lame…. and yet, they must fear him to spend so much times to smear him, one way or another.

            Also I suspect it was given to the slippery one so that National front benchers and Shonkey have their hands clean and can keep spinning that they don’t use negative attack politics.
            • Anne 10.3.2.1.1.1

              4 August 2011 at 7:13 pm

              …. and yet, they must fear him to spend so much times to smear him, one way or another.

              Phil Goff has far more knowledge and experience than Key (and Joyce) when it comes to matters concerning Defence and Foreign Affairs. Key knows it. What I don’t understand is why Dr. Warren Tucker is refusing to accept that he didn’t show the document to Goff because that is seemingly what happened. It was probably no more than an oversight – he may have been under pressure at the time? So why didn’t he just accept Goff’s word that he hadn’t seen the document(s) and apologised to him. I’m sure Goff would have accepted his apology unequivocally and that would have been the end of the matter.

              Instead a right-wing slimeball is provided by someone in the SIS with the documentation. That’s where the big smell lies!
              • Anne …

                4 August 2011 at 7:33 pm

                Further to the above and as has already been commented on:

                The fact that the story only broke two weeks ago, and Slater is already in possession of documents smells of extremely rancid fish.
11. Optimus Prime 11

    4 August 2011 at 1:59 pm

    micky is right. Questions need to be asked; like where any politician gets off publicly besmirching the reputation of a senior civil servant, particularly one with an exemplary record?

    This practice has to stop, regardless of political affiliation.

    That’s what the State Services Commission is for.
12. Kiwisimplexity 12

    4 August 2011 at 2:20 pm

    Sent to Malaysia without passing Go
    Governments are using social media and YouTube more and more as a way to get their message across.
    http://kiwi-linkwhore-simplexity.wordpress.com/2011/08/04/sent-to-malaysia-without-passing-go/

    The speedy top cop Cox
    The Southern Motorway in Auckland was the scene of a police crackdown on speeding in January that aimed to reduce the number of fatalities on New Zealand roads.
    http://kiwi-linkwhore-simplexity.wordpress.com/2011/08/03/the-speedy-top-cop-cox/

    http://kiwi-linkwhore-simplexity.wordpress.com/
13. the pink postman 13

    4 August 2011 at 4:33 pm

    Am I going bonkers or am I just reading the wrong papers and forms of news.
    Now every day I hear of jobs going and mass unemployment. Yet the radio news tells me unemployment has been reduced. Now every day I read that Key is Super-Man in disguise, yet everyone I speak too hates the guy.
    Same with the present government every paper tell me the Nats will win by a huge majority .However all the people I speak say “We must get rid of this government.. So what’s going on ? Bye the way Im almost a non- drinker and I do not smoke or take drugs, Answers please !
    • freedom 13.1

      4 August 2011 at 4:49 pm

      Doublespeak is a long running machine they have practised with and tuned and now just throw it into gear any time they choose. Vigilance of your own reality is all you can hope for.
14. jackal 14

    4 August 2011 at 4:54 pm

    John Key on Letterman

    Recently it was revealed that Tourism NZ paid the PR frim Hill & Knowlton $10,000, to get John Key on the David Letterman show. They engaged the PR firm because after at least six months of lobbying, Letterman was uninterested in having John Key on his show…
    • Andrei 14.1

      4 August 2011 at 5:05 pm

      No – Tourism NZ pay Hill & Knowlton to promote New Zealand.

      As part of their brief they conceived the idea of our prime minister making an appearance on Letterman and set it up.

      Mr Key himself was paid US $250 for this appearance, this being to meet Actors equity union requirements that all those who appear on TV shows get paid. This money, I understand, was donated to charity.

      Do pay attention
      • freedom 14.1.1

        4 August 2011 at 5:08 pm

        http://thestandard.org.nz/you-paid-to-get-try-hard-john-on-the-telly/
        you may want to read this thread Andrei to get your timeline in order
      • Tiger Mountain 14.1.2

        4 August 2011 at 5:12 pm

        Brown noser (Andrei)- it is not Mr Key it is Shonkey.
      • Colonial Viper 14.1.3

        4 August 2011 at 6:00 pm

        Andrei = latest CT astroturfer
15. Vicky32 15

    4 August 2011 at 6:18 pm

    I am listening now to 3 News lying their fat faces off about the latest unemployment figures. Petulant Bean taking credit for the ‘drop’ that only 3News can see… and a whine about ‘yoof’ from someone else. Having just been turned down yet again, today, on the grounds of my age, I didn’t need to see an old lady of 70+ talking about how happy she was to have gone back to work… Nice if you can do that, but some of us can’t even get a job to go back to!
    • Campbell Larsen 15.1

      4 August 2011 at 8:26 pm

      Ditto for me – 60 applicants for the 2nd to last job I applied for in my field, to his credit the employer personally read all the cv’s and cover letters – no interview. Last job applied for the reply even stated that I had many of the skills that they were looking for – still no interview.
      WTF.
      Spoke to a guy at work today, he been in business for years, never had any trouble finding clients but in the last six months the works has dried up and now he is going ‘door knocking’ looking to drum up business, or to work for someone else.

      National must go, the one thing that this country most certainly cannot afford is to dump a whole chunk of the population on the scrapheap through the policies of neglect and indifference.
16. Carol 16

    4 August 2011 at 6:26 pm

    RNZ has been reporting a jobless economic recovery – no improvement in unemployment stats.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/81710/unemployment-figures-'amount-to-jobless-recovery‘

    Statistics New Zealand’s Household Labour Force Survey shows the number of people out of work remained at 154,000 in the three months to June, unchanged from the previous quarter.

    While 1000 new jobs were created in the quarter, that was only enough to keep up with the rise in the numbers looking for work. That leaves the official unemployment rate unchanged at 6.5%, according to the survey.
    • Vicky32 16.1

      4 August 2011 at 7:02 pm

      Employment increased for women and decreased for men in the June quarter.

      Great! 🙁

      But Business New Zealand says a big increase in the number of hours worked in the past three months indicate a stronger pick-up in employment is around the corner.

      I’ve been hearing this “just around the corner” for 2 years now
      • prism 16.1.1

        4 August 2011 at 8:14 pm

        @vicky32 Bet that female employment rise was in part time and casual work.
        • Pete George 16.1.1.1

          4 August 2011 at 8:20 pm

          That’s what I heard (on the news) the stats were saying, cautious increases in employment, especially part time.
      • Rodel 16.1.2

        4 August 2011 at 10:11 pm

        Everything from Nactional politicians.and supporters……..is ‘just around the corner.’
        Everything English, Key and Co. promise is ‘soon ‘.. in 2012 etc. i.e ‘the future looks good after the election.’ Hey! NOW is bad for a lot of people who are losing jobs and losing under inflation. I suggest they concentrate on the here and now rather than their contrived mythical future.
17. Ianmac 17

    5 August 2011 at 12:06 am

    Keep up the good work folks. Read most of comments. To mac1 hot air balloon rode over cappadoccia turkey at sunrise magnificent. Down amongst the valleys and hills. Wow!

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