Open mike 04/09/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:51 am, September 4th, 2014 - 309 comments
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309 comments on “Open mike 04/09/2014”

  1. “..8 Awe-Inspiring Mass Transit Systems that Changed Their Cities..”

    .Some of the greatest public transit systems offer their riders something extra –

    – or reshape the cities they serve..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.alternet.org/economy/8-awe-inspiring-mass-transit-systems-changed-their-cities

  2. “..25 Ways Vegans Answer ‘How Do You Get Enough Protein?’..”

    .The answer is easier than you think..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.alternet.org/food/25-ways-vegans-answer-how-do-you-get-enough-protein

    • tricledrown 2.1

      Ironic what about B12 PU

    • weka 2.2

      How many of the foods from that list aren’t grown in NZ, but have large food miles attached to them? How many are grown with the destruction of agribusiness/Monsanto? Both those issues are significant for everyone in terms of AGW and serious environmental degradation, esp people claiming the moral high ground for their food choices.

      I would guess 10 out of the 25 are available in NZ from NZ grown sources, but they’re mostly the lower protein ones.

      Tempeh: 41 g per cup
      Lentils: 18 g per cup
      Plain soymilk: 11 g per cup
      Edamame: 20 g per cup
      Seitan: 19 g per 3 ounces
      Tofu: 20 g per 1/2 cup
      Peas: 9 g per cup
      Brown rice: 5 g per cup
      White rice: 4 g per cup
      Cooked broccoli: 4 g per cup
      Sunflower seeds: 6 g per 1/4 cup
      Quinoa: 9 g per cup
      Cooked spinach: 5 g per cup
      Avocado: 4 g per cup
      Whole grain bread: 7 g in 2 slices
      Black beans: 15 g per cup
      Cashews: 5 g per 1/4 cup
      Cooked semolina pasta: 8 g per cup
      Chia seeds: 5 g per 2 tablespoons
      Flax seeds: 4 g per 2 tablespoons
      Bulgur: 5.5 g per cup
      Peanut butter: 8 g per 2 tablespoons
      Sunflower seed butter: 5.5 g per 2 tablespoons
      Baked red potato: 3 g per cup
      Barley: 3.5 g per cup

      • right..

        ..so ..re.. ‘people claiming the moral high ground for their food choices’…

        ..so yr whole diet is local/monsanto-etc-free..?..eh..?

        ..and the animals you eat have no environmental-foot-print..eh..?

        ..you really are going for the major orifice-pluck..eh..?

        ..and however you slice/dice it..

        ..a vegan diet has a far smaller footprint than that of animal-eaters..

        ..so…yr point..?

        • weka 2.2.1.1

          My main point is that the ethical nature of people’s food choices isn’t one size fits all. For instance, you claim,

          “..a vegan diet has a far smaller footprint than that of animal-eaters..”

          Which is just crap if you compare someone in NZ eating locally who grows much of their own food including their meat compared to someone who is vegan who eats non-organic, imported, highly packaged and processed food. It’s not the *vegan* bit that makes the difference, it’s the intelligence applied to the choices being made.

          There are many ways to eat ethically, and militant vegans like you are blind to that because of your ideology. You can spout all the pro-vegan stats you like, but you can’t get around the physical reality of the world we live in.

    • tc 3.1

      More dishonesty with numbers like crime stats, fiscally neutral tax cuts, budgets ‘balanced’ by moving expenditure to loans etc etc

      education is a big stick to beat this govt with given charter schools, Nat standards, declining ranking etc hope this gets a run in one of the debates just to watch shonkey bs his way through their wilful dismantling of an education sector that was doing just fine till they showed up.

    • ianmac 3.2

      Amazing that little is said by media about a glaring error my a senior Minister when the slightest Labour error is headline news. Wonder why?

  3. glen garforth 4

    so let me get this straight…
    if you are an uninsured christchurch home owner, then under this government, tough bikkies to you.
    however.. if you are a farmer who hasn’t fenced off our waterways then we will buy your land off you and fence it for you while you keep all the benefits off farming near water.
    hmm..

    • vto 4.1

      Exactly. Let alone that some of those in Christchurch that have been told “tough bikkies”, such as bare land owners, couldn’t get insurance. This is Brownlee’s biggest shit.

      Then of course there are those who invested in South Canterbury Finance, yet get bailed out.

      The list is extensive. The hypocrisy extreme.

      • glen garforth 4.1.1

        i heartily reccomend the adam smith, bbc doco: century of the self.
        “This series is about how those in power have used Freud’s theories to try and control the dangerous crowd in an age of mass democracy.” —Adam Curtis’
        (pasted from wikipedia)
        while it doesnt provide answers it helps show us what we are up against.

    • adam 4.2

      That pretty neatly sums up national. Communism for those with money. Tax the hell out of the middle class, and while they’re at it – bugger the poor.

      • Murray Olsen 4.2.1

        Can you explain what Communism is? I suspect our definitions are different.

        • Rich 4.2.1.1

          Was. Dictatorship of the Proletariat. A Cadre of educated intelligentsia would rule in the name of the Proletariat in a benign and wise manner. So they were anti-democratic, which makes it easy to label them. It is of course that old nasty beast called Tyranny. You can dress your Tyranny up in a nice new word (which maybe it was for a brief period), but, oh shock horror, in 70 years the new word has the same distaste when uttered by the victims (let’s forget what Thatcher or Reagan thought) as its predecessor.

          • McFlock 4.2.1.1.1

            not quite.

            The DotP was supposedly a transitional period that set the ground for a classless, conflictless commun1st society that was also completely democratic, with administrative structures centred around the will of the workers.

            Which is an easy out for them that thinks marx identified the solution as well as the problems with capitalism and feudalism – they just claim that the regimes which claimed to be commun1st were in fact failed attempts, and not the real deal.

            Personally, I reckon he precisely and accurately described the problems, but his solution involved much handwaving and wishful thinking.

    • David H 4.3

      Yep and according to the Polls that’s alright with the Sheeple that vote for the NATS. It’s unfortunate that most are people like us, (Low to medium waged) that have been fitted with National Party Blinkers, and rose coloured glasses. That are telling them they may get a whole block of Cheese this time around

    • Wreckingball 4.4

      “Buy your land off you” – yea so the government will buy land of farmers for market rates. There is no special treatment there. Don’t you want NZ to have cleaner rivers?

      • glen garforth 4.4.1

        “Buy your land off you” – yea so the government will buy land of farmers for market rates. There is no special treatment there. Don’t you want NZ to have cleaner rivers?

        yes i do want nz to have cleaner rivers.
        i also want those who benefit financially from farming on and sometimes in these rivers to do what is right and keep stock out of rivers.

        do you think it is good policy to make farmers beneficiaries of government handouts?

      • Draco T Bastard 4.4.2

        Of course I want clean rivers. I also want the people who dirtied them to pay to clean them up.

      • glen garforth 4.4.3

        there is special treatment here.

        when i fail to do what is right the state does not make it right. especially in a fiscally neutral way.

        the idea that the way for us to have our rivers clean is for the state to clean up after dirty farming practices is pathetic.

      • Wreckingball 4.4.4

        Hang on. What am I missing.

        The government is planning to buy land of farmers at market price to provide buffer zones.

        There are no government handouts and no instances of special treatment.

        Please describe?

        • McFlock 4.4.4.1

          How about the government is paying full market rates to stop a commercial enterprise polluting public waterways?

          Meanwhile, residents in chch get fined for polluting the air with smoke from chimneys.

          If there were no special treatment, farmers would be fined for polluting waterways, not paid to stop.

        • vto 4.4.4.2

          wreckingabll lets apply some consistency … “The government is planning to buy land off farmers at market price ”

          In Christchurch “market price” has equated to the value after the earthquakes, after the turmoil, etc. such that the “market value” equalled the new market value reflecting the lack of demand ….

          … so … who wants to buy such farmland? The market value of land must equal that of people who want to buy land that cannot use it for dairy purposes, or farming purposes, or commercial purposes…. the only market value it has is ….

          fucking nil…

          just as the “market value” equation has been applied in the red zones of Christchurch.

      • joe90 4.4.5

        There is no special treatment there

        Nah, no special treatment.
        /

        Owners of vacant land and properties with uninsured homes had been offered a purchase price of 50 per cent of the 2007/2008 land valuation. Insured commercial properties were offered 50 per cent of the land value and 100 per cent of the value of the insured buildings

        http://cera.govt.nz/news/2014/decision-on-uninsured-vacant-and-commercial-land-to-wait-for-supreme-court-ruling-4-june-2014

        • Wreckingball 4.4.5.1

          Are you seriously comparing two completely different scenarios.

          If I don’t ensure my property, that is my fault. The uninsured were lucky they were bailed out at all. What is the point in getting disaster insurance cover if the govt will just bail you out.

        • MrSmith 4.4.5.2

          “But Green Party co-leader Russel Norman said the plan did not go far enough. Based on Dairy NZ figures, the fund would buy the equivalent of 400 rugby fields a year, meaning 777 fewer cows. “It will not solve our water-quality problems if we continue to allow more conversions in sensitive catchments.”

  4. Flipnz 5

    Anybody else notice the juxtaposition of Campbell Live from empty fridges on Tues to Minor Leaders Dinner Wed.

    • David H 5.1

      Yeah ALL that food and no one eating, so how much was given to the Press slaves and Camera crew, cold or reheated ?

      • left for dead 5.1.1

        Yes I had wondered that myself.Come on middle NZ,think more clearly Please.Vote this so called government out,an we all need to be involved in the next one.

  5. philj 6

    xox
    JK’s legacy? hmmmm.
    Half baked, underfunded cycle ways and exposing how a democracy is corrupted. Thanks John.

  6. Enough is Enough 7

    Farrar’s attack line today fed directly from the 9th floor.

    Labour is bringing in a death tax.

    • Molly 7.1

      “Death tax” is the phrase that reversed the momentum to have an inheritance tax in the US.

      I’ve forgotten the name of the documentary I watched that outlined the change of support, but it was a deliberate choice to make voters react emotionally to the thought of being “taxed for dying”.

      Every opportunity should be taken to react to the phrase “death tax” with appropriate responses such as:
      – it is not a death tax, – we don’t tax people for dying,
      – we call it what it is – an inheritance tax – because those getting taxed are only those inheriting large sums of unearned personal wealth,
      – calling it a death tax is the same as calling PAYE a “hiring tax”. Those on wages will know that PAYE is a tax they pay on their income. This is the same situation – those benefitting from large amounts of untaxed income, will pay a reasonable tax rate on that amount.

      • North 7.1.1

        Well said Molly !

      • crocodill 7.1.2

        Phew, that was close. I thought I wouldn’t be allowed to die until I’d paid to leave. They could have had difficulties chasing “people” for default. They’d need Bruce Willis and some sort of inter-dimension vehicle.

        • hoom 7.1.2.1

          Didn’t Dun Dun Haaair get rid of our Inheritance tax along with the Gift tax early in this Nat govt?

          • vto 7.1.2.1.1

            It is appalling that some people want others to bear all the tax burden.

            Why should those who make money by way of capital gain not pay tax…..

            while those who make money by way of income do pay tax?

            selfish
            greedy
            ugly
            no wonder some in our society are beginning to thrash and bash against the government and others (winz threats and actions) when this is the attitude displayed by the likes of Farrar.

          • alwyn 7.1.2.1.2

            Death duties, or the inheritance tax was abolished in New Zealand under the Bolger Government, of which Dunne was not a part.
            Gift Duties, although logically part of the Death Duty regime were not abolished until 2011, which was in Dunne’s time in government. Why they weren’t scrapped in 1993 isn’t clear, or meaningful.

      • Puddleglum 7.1.3

        Hi Molly,

        I think we saw the same documentary (and I’ve forgotten its name too!). It completely dissected the dissembling by the Republicans and their third party support groups.

        In Nicky Hager’s book, Farrar’s trips to the U.S. are detailed so no coincidence that the same term is being used now.

      • Adele 7.1.4

        Kiaora

        I would like to know whether this inheritance tax will apply to Māori land. When we last had this form of tax Māori lost large tracts of land because of the inability to pay the tax. And quite frankly, this form of tax will not win many votes for Labour,

        • greywarbler 7.1.4.1

          It is a tax that is paid on change of ownership so I suppose it could be a type of inheritance tax. It could not be applied in the case you state Adele if the aim is to have a CGT that is fair and equitable.

          If poor family members were left a house that had been in the family for generations and was in private title, but with it came a tax bill, it could be quite large if the capital gain were to be calculated from decades back.
          If it was multiple Maori ownership and the building was being transferred to a trustee, or committee on behalf, that should be outside the parameters of the CGT surely.

          • greywarbler 7.1.4.1.1

            I’m just thinking of my own case if CGT was to be applied to my house. I have lived in my old house for decades. We bought it for $23,000 and now it is valued at about $323,000.

            So that is quite a capital appreciation, but its value now would be about the same as other houses, so it would not be a case of getting wealthy from its sale. I would possibly have to use all the capital from the sale (not much left on mortgage) to buy another low maintenance house. And would have to raise a small mortgage to do so. So that would be a double cost, the 15% tax plus the interest on mortgage that I would have to raise to reimburse for the amount of tax charged. ($300,000 capital appreciation at 15% CGT would amount to $45,000 tax.)

            Therefore for me to have to pay 15% on the capital appreciation would be quite an imposing amount of tax that would not be coming from discretionary cash but from basic disposable cash.

            That’s presuming the CGT was going to be 15%. I don’t know if that is regarded as a magic number. I haven’t read up the details about it yet.

          • Adele 7.1.4.1.2

            Kiaora Greywarbler

            Thank you for your reply. I was unaware until now that the inheritance tax and CGT were one in the same. I obviously have not been paying too much attention to the debate. In principle, i support the introduction of a CGT but its clear that a focus on the detail is necessary before committing fully to the implementation via a vote.

            • greywarbler 7.1.4.1.2.1

              @ Adele
              Tena koe Adele
              I am unreliable on CGT – I have a general ideal on it only at present. In general I think it is a good idea but it might have fishhooks in it if it isn’t drawn up carefully. And I can understand Maori getting a bit antsy about it after all that has gone on in the past.

              So as you say detail is important. But it is the type of thing that there should be consultation about, with Maori especially, also select committee etc. so that the middle class pakeha who are probably going to be in the majority of the decision makers don’t go off on some airy fairy legislation that does more harm than good in its application.

    • Another tactic from the Republican play book of deliberate lying and misrepresentation.

      Do Farrar and National have any truly original ideas for smear campaigns?

      Obviously he is still trying to show a ROI on his visits to U.S. Republicans.

      • Draco T Bastard 7.2.1

        Do Farrar and National have any truly original ideas for smear campaigns?

        Do they need original lies when the ones imported from the US work so well?

      • wonderpup 7.2.2

        Farrar’s deep links with the US far right need to be constantly exposed: they are one part of the Dirty Politics that seem to have been missed (so far)

        Has Farrar ever been funded to attend, or attended events that have been funded by far-right neo-con libertarian organisations? If so, can he be regarded as the cuddly righty commenter, or a stooge?

  7. Bearded Git 8

    Cameron Bagrie, economist who is consistently a Key/National apologist, has just said on Morning Report that the $5 billion hit to the dairy industry next year is no reason to rule out tax cuts. WTF?

    Susie Ferguson failed miserably (again) in not asking him the bleeding obvious question: shouldn’t surpluses (if any) be used to pay off the $80 billion debt incurred over the last 6 years rather than buy an election with tax cuts?

    aaaargh where is Kim Hill when you need her?

    • North 8.1

      Ferguson is a stolid and unintelligent status-quoist. The slightest indication of a challenge to the status-quo she goes into protect mode. Using tactics of (often) aggressive dismissal. It’s just not acceptable.

      • crocodill 8.1.1

        “Using tactics of (often) aggressive dismissal.”

        And also Draco statement at 7.2.1 about the lies “working”. By working, if you mean they’re believed as truth within the individual, then no they don’t work. If someone knows they believe something, then they know it’s a lie. Conscious faith isn’t real faith. If you’ve ever gone head to head in real life with some of these people (not fun at all, very very different to doing it online!), it’s obvious they don’t believe what they say. You can see the words going into their heads, settling for arrangement within a “code of comfort” and being weighed for acceptable sounds of comfort. They know exactly what they’re protecting – total bewilderment and fear inside a life of, well, god knows what kind of real reality. Most of us are scared to death, we just use different opiates, from hope and humanitarianism, right out to politics, substance abuse and war.

    • adam 8.2

      Come on BG, National are good for the economy – they would not lie or cook the books. Or buy an election after accusing the opposition of doing it – never. He’s Prince John, not the Sheriff of Nottingham…

    • dv 8.3

      May be there is different way of looking at this.

      5Billin hit
      Thus income will drop
      Voila not as much tax paid.

      Nah dosent add up.

    • greywarbler 8.4

      I was thinking about Kim Hill being one of a specially honoured group in NZ and looked up awards. I found the Order of NZ has only 20 people at a time and when viewing the membership I thought that politicians should have been excluded. There are far too many there.

      It seems that the people who really make the country great may be excluded. Politicians are far too often the fleas on the dog, and cause a lot of biting and itching, discomfort and unwellness. True greatness comes from the outstanding endeavours of NZ actually doing something of value to the country, which is often not the case for politicians.

      Kim has received a broadcasters award but she and other similar luminaries have achieved to such a high level which has been good for us, they should be held high in the country’s rolls of honour.

    • Weepus beard 9.1

      NZ supposedly has a world class boat building industry. What was that toy not built here?

      • hoom 9.1.1

        We have a very cheap composite boat building industry.

        Which is because we don’t have proper environmental/worker protection laws, have low wages & a silly exchange rate (has been a big downturn with the dollar up though).

        Fibreglass/carbon dust is treated the same as asbestos in a bunch of countries because it similarly has a lot of little sharp fibres, not here.

  8. Petrus 10

    Sorry to raise a new topic, but as an ex-teacher I think this link is important:

    http://networkonnet.wordpress.com/2014/09/03/the-ministry-of-education-and-whale-oil-an-introduction/

    (stolen from Public Address’s Hard News comments)

    What is really beginning to rattle me is learning just how long some of this stuff has been going on for and how deeply entrenched it is. Was I really that sleepy?? (Don’t answer that, I’ll just sit quietly in the corner and rock myself until I feel better…)

    • This needs much further dissemination.

      If Kelvin Smythe is correct (even partly) then this is as damning as any other revelations.

      I suspect that many/most (or even all) Ministers knew they could feed information to WhaleOil to ‘shift’ the narrative in their favour over many issues.

      Amy Adams’ behaviour over the mis-sent email is suggestive of this and now Tolley’s (or her Ministry’s) possible relationship with WhaleOil adds further weight to the suspicion.

      This quote of Lusk’s from Hager’s book (in Smythe’s post) shows that he and Slater certainly believed that Ministers should be aware:

      “Yes, they should have all worked it out now, “Lusk replied.

      Nothing less than a comprehensive inquiry into all Ministers’ possible involvement in this network is needed.

      • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1

        A general inquiry looking for corruption in all of our government departments. Especially looking at ministers.

        And we keep it going afterwards.

    • Dialey 10.2

      That is deeply disturbing

    • Clemgeopin 10.3

      The issues raised in that article are extremely disturbing and so very nasty!

      We can not ignore this and let our country and democracy be so undermined.

      I think we definitely need a high powered independent three member judicial review/commission to go over all these serious allegations to make these dodgy political, bureaucratic and ministerial crooks answerable for their methods and behaviour.

      It does not matter which political party you support, but the issue here is far more important than one’s political allegiances. We should not let this slide quietly under the carpet.

    • vto 11.1

      wrong question pr.

      should be … how is dirty politics and key’s lies and his governments and supporters nastiness working out for the country? (hint: check what people are doing to winz offices)

      • Puckish Rogue 11.1.1

        (hint: check what people are doing to winz offices)

        – What that guy did is his own fault, theres no one else to blame and hopefully he’ll be put away for the rest of his short life

        • vto 11.1.1.1

          These people are lashing out because they are being lashed by the government and their supporters…

          wake up fool

        • CrashCart 11.1.1.2

          “What that guy did”

          I’m sorry did I miss the trial where he was found guilty of this crime? Pretty sure you were one of the ones who jumpped on the band wagon about Guilty until proven innocent in rape cases being a absolute attack on our democracy yet here when it suits you, you sound pretty happy to pull out the noose and pitch forks and head on down for a good old lynching. From Paula Bennet’s staments over the last day or so it would seem that she is right beside you.

          The fact is you are all so keen to go around your own moral values for one reason. If you can make this all about a guilty mruderer you don’t need ot look at the reasons for what has happened. Should it be found that he is guilty do you really think that he just woke up that morning and thought..
          Things to do today.. hmmm, fold up tent…get on bike….such a nice day I might go shoot up the WINZ office.

          No one is excusing what has happened. However there still needs to be questions asked about what led up to the person who did this making the decision to what they did. Having the minister go on T.V and pronounce this guy guilty and say that WINZ in no way contributed to his actions is a discusting abuse and attempt to white wash and it is disgraceful that the MSM has not called her on it.

          • Puckish Rogue 11.1.1.2.1

            You know what you’re right.

            If that guy did it and we’ll find out after the trial it’ll be his his own fault, there’ll be no one else to blame and hopefully he’ll be put away for the rest of his short life if found guilty

        • Murray Olsen 11.1.1.3

          Paula Bennett may have made it hard to give him a fair trial due to not being able to keep her fat mouth shut. If he walks because of that, it’ll be more damage due to dirty Nact politics.

      • emergency mike 11.1.2

        +1 Amen.

    • hoom 11.2

      I couldn’t help but notice that Nats are down to 45% from over 50% recently on that 3 News one…

      But gotta question the reliability of a poll that can’t count change between polls correctly on 8 out of 9 parties.

      I mean, probably those are correct on Planet Key.

      • Kiwiri 11.2.1

        if it goes down some more, John Key will find an excuse to suspend the general election

        • s y d 11.2.1.1

          yeah Hoom, weird that TV3 says Nats falling from 47.5% to 46.4% is an increase of 1.4….and Labour from 29 to 25.9 is down 0.5..

          By my reckoning thats a fall of 1.1, but NATS UP is a better headline I guess.

          Maybe there was another poll that had the Nats at 45?

      • David H 11.2.2

        Wasn’t it 44% and CAN’T form a government ? So TricKey’s dancing on a razor blade.

    • emergency mike 11.3

      It doesn’t seem to have altered the left bloc total vote much, but National seems to be falling. As the article you linked to put it, a ‘sharp decline’.

      As others have pointed out polls usually inflate National by 5%. If so there looks to be a good chance that they won’t be able to govern even if they offer Winston the sky.

      So um, how’s it working out for you? Are you really going to carry on defending a bunch of corrupt arseholes? Carry on Slater soldier!

      • Puckish Rogue 11.3.1

        All I care about is that NZ is saved from the GIMP party and the best bet for that is National although I’d be ok with Labour/NZFirst as a second option

        But its two polls both run after Dirty Politics showing a decline in Labour whereas Nationals holding firm so thats a fail to the Lefts best chance hope (a hope founded on illegal activity I might add)

        Maybe the Left need to realise that they don’t speak for the majority of kiwis

        • swordfish 11.3.1.1

          Ruckish Pogue (Rugby-playing Irish post-Punk with particularly poor dental work): “…showing a decline in Labour whereas Nationals holding firm”

          Heading on back to reality for a moment:
          Latest Roy Morgan
          National Down 3 points
          Labour Down 1.5 points
          Green Up 4.5 points

          • Puckish Rogue 11.3.1.1.1

            Latest TV3 poll has:

            National up 1.4
            Labour down 0.5
            Greens down 0.9

            • swordfish 11.3.1.1.1.1

              So shall we take that as a concession that you were talking complete and utter bollocks when you brazenly stated: “…two polls both run after Dirty Politics …showing Nationals holding firm” ?????

              Average the various swings in the two polls out = Nats Down, Lab+Green Up. Simple as that, Big Fella.

              • swordfish

                Just to get the message through:

                7 Polls have been carried out since the release of Dirty Politics

                5 have National down (by an average of 3.3 points – ranging from down 2 to down 4.9 points) / 2 have National up (by an average of 1 point).

          • Mac1 11.3.1.1.2

            The latest Roy Morgan was held partly before the Collins sacking and does not take the impact of the ongoing corruption (sage oops!) saga of this government into full account. The figures will be worse for National yet.

            • Puckish Rogue 11.3.1.1.2.1

              Seriously? That seems to be the refrain of the left.

              Just wait until the people of NZ see John Key for what he his (6 years on and still waiting)

              Just wait until the people of NZ get to know the real Cunliffe (hes been leader of Labour fior nearly a year now)

              Wait until KDC takes down John Key (still waiting…)

              Wait until the full effects of dirty Politics are known

              Yeah just keep on waiting lefties

        • disturbed 11.3.1.2

          Pockish runt,

          Do you really think your stupid propaganda is listened to.

          You are just a parrot looking more stupid every day, but since you are paid to do it you even are a bigger fool than we though.

          find a real job.

        • David H 11.3.1.3

          Yeah PR you’s rather have a National Act Maori UF and Colon Craig thrown in to make a 5 headed Hydra. Where as the Left will be Lab/Green maybe NZ first.

          It makes me laugh when TricKey bullshits about the Left block.
          when his Right block is a bunch of Nutters, crims and wanna be’s

    • Te Reo Putake 11.4

      “Yeah hows that Dirty Politics book working out for the left”

      Brilliantly, PR. Both polls show the Nats in deep shit, particularly the TV3 one, which always overestimates the Nats and downplays Labour. At the last election, TV3 had Key’s lot at over 50%, and a few days later they scraped in by a single seat, with 47% support. Given that 3-5% overestimation, the Nats appear to be in a death spiral.

      • Puckish Rogue 11.4.1

        Nationals holding firm in the mid 40s and Labours declining and you think thats a brilliant result?

        • Te Reo Putake 11.4.1.1

          Yep, coz I can count and I know how MMP works. All you’ve got left is a vague hope that Winston will save your lot and that looks less and less likely every day:

          http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/election-2014/253722/nz-first-willing-to-talk-to-greens

          • vto 11.4.1.1.1

            Yep, it is intensely funny that the only hope for the National Party is the crazy conservatives and the rejected Peters…..

            ha ha, keep dreaming pr

          • weka 11.4.1.1.2

            Interesting. Came from Martin not Peters, so I’m cautiously hopeful. Still, a vote for NZF is not a vote for a change in govt.

            • anker 11.4.1.1.2.1

              Actually PR Dirty Politics is not a left wing campaign strategy.

              The revelations are significant as we now have proof of what has been going on.
              Whatever the election result is, most of us on the left will not let it go……..If Key wins, I believe the left will keep fighting to continue to expose the worst corruption ever experienced in NZ by a million miles.

            • anker 11.4.1.1.2.2

              Hi Weka,

              The reply I sent to you was for PR, not sure how that happened.

              RE NZ first. I was at a candidates meeting last night and the NZ first candidate virtually said they would not be going with National! Don’t want to dob him or her by saying where. Maybe they are speaking out of turn, but I don’t think so.

              Peters is playing a very clever game here. Great strategy (hopefully I am right about this).

              Worst case scenario, the left do poorly and Key can govern with NZ first. Peters hasn’t ruled this out, but bottom line is the Royal Commission.

              • weka

                Yep, Peters is playing a very smart game here, and it about giving him maximum power. All that rhetoric about the good of NZ is true but secondary. The only reason he is talking about talking to the GP is because circumstances have forced him to do so.

                I am interested to see some of NZF policy though.

                The only safe vote for a change of govt is Labour, Greens or IMP.

                • given peters saying the dirty politics content is true..

                  ..and his calling for a royal commission into ‘all’ of the allegations/evidence contained in that book/whaledump-material..

                  ..and given the obvious personal warmth between peters and turei..

                  ..given peters verbalised disgust at what neo-lib has wrought..in poverty..(and if he was ‘acting’ that disgust..he deserves an oscar..)

                  ..and given his stating that ‘we used to do it right..we can do that again’..
                  (once again..an oscar deserved if ‘acting’..)

                  ..given his heritage/place in history will not be being ignored by him..

                  ..(choice..support a corrupt tory govt to limp thru a third term..to inevitable ignominy/defeat in 2017/likely death of his party….

                  ..or support a poverty-fighting progressive-coalition..

                  ..and go down in the history books as a major actor in turning that s.s. neo-lib around..

                  ..as a hero of the people..

                  ..(that is some powerful medicine..)

                  ..and of course..another factor is tracey martin..

                  ..’cos if she is acting her verbalised disgust at poverty..she too deserves an oscar..

                  ..and while there are no guarantees..it is those reasons (and more..)..that would make me surprised if peters did decide to prop up that corrupt tory govt..

                  ..but of course..that all does not mean a vote for nz first is ‘safe’..

                  ..i am just trying for a more nuanced view/assesment..

          • Clemgeopin 11.4.1.1.3

            Winston will be the BIGGEST winner of this election. He is attracting and will continue to attract votes galore from every where : North, South, East, West and North by northwest too! Wily wise old master politician! I will not be surprised if his party vote crosses 10%.

        • North 11.4.1.2

          PR – another fool whose Linus’s Blanket is to deny the now 18 year fact of MMP.

          So obviously foolish. Projecting FPP into our 7th MMP election ???

          • Puckish Rogue 11.4.1.2.1

            MMP lets use our crystal ball…

            UnitedDunne to hold his seat
            Maori Party good for 2 seats
            Epsom will return Act (no matter what the machinations of the left come up with)

            So that right there is 4 seats

            Kelvin Davis is by all accounts doing a good job so its not looking good for Hone (gee Hones had a run of bad luck just recently hasn’t he…) so no votes for the IMPs

            I can remember another election when Winston intimated he’d go with Labour (which is a good bargaining tactic) and didn’t so I’m not going to predict where he’ll go

            So we have National (according to every poll even Roy Morgan) being ahead of Labour/Greens

            Whatever way you look at it National is in a better position than the Left

            • Draco T Bastard 11.4.1.2.1.1

              Dunne is done
              mP will go with anyone who’ll offer them space at the table
              And, I feel that Epsom may actually tell the criminal Act to fuck off.

              • Puckish Rogue

                That maybe true but my point is, at this point in time, National is in a better spot then the left

                Not by much of course however its still preferable to be slightly ahead then slightly behind

                I think the Dirty Politics hasn’t done close to as much damage as the left would have liked though credit where credits due you lot manage to remove Judith collins so fair play on that

                • Draco T Bastard

                  It wasn’t us that finally removed her – it was her corruption and the fact that John Key and National couldn’t and wouldn’t cover for it any more. This needs to happen to a few more MPs.

              • Skinny

                Speaking of ACT how desperate is Jamie Whyte crying to the media after getting told to fuck off. Good bloody job Craig got told to piss off too. Only party’s that indicated they could form a Government were invited. Oh and a late invite to Bill English to front up on behalf of National. Apparently they tried to send Heatley ‘like as if ge is on the leadership team’ What did he have in common with English again? and why was he getting booted for touch.. Classic he was laughed at and rightfully so….rejected just like Key done to him. Heatley packed a sad and refused to let their local Nat candidate attend the meet the candidate section. Hence the crowds reaction when tough as nails Labour candidate Kelly Elilis yelled “where the hell are ya.”

                Sounded like a real hoot for the big crowd in a blue ribbon town!

                http://m.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=11319031

            • tricledrown 11.4.1.2.1.2

              Maori good for 1 seat maybe they may go left this time !
              Tama Iti that will make it interesting for National

              • Puckish Rogue

                Tama Iti probably remembers the good work Doug Graham did with the treaty settlements

                • BLiP

                  Doug Graham the convicted fraudster? Doug Graham the father of Whale Oil author Carrick Graham? That Doug Graham?

                  • Murray Olsen

                    Yeah, that Doug Graham. Unfortunately he was Minister when a few Treaty negotiations wound up, and was the one who signed off on them. As for Tame (not Tama) Iti, he loves his stunts and isn’t too fussy about which politicians he makes friends with. He’s also got something against Annette Sykes.

    • Macro 11.5

      Yeah hows that Dirty Politics book working out for the left

      Pretty good I would say.

      What should be obvious, even for for a fool like you, is that there is now, no way that National can form a majority government, even with its puppets MP Act and UF. How NZF will go is anybodies guess, and remember that Winston has said that he wants a Royal Commission on the stinking sewer that National have created, and has been revealed in the book you are so scared about. And there is still 2 weeks to go and support for the right is steadily tracking down (45% in Roy Morgan last night) . Further remember that these polls over emphasise support for the right – by up to 5%. (Even Matthew Hooten acknowledges this fact). If you really understood the impact of these polls you would wetting your pants in fear right now.

  9. Weepus beard 12

    Whaledump twitter account has been suspended.

    Interesting.

  10. greywarbler 13

    Interesting discussion on taxation this morning. Kathryn Ryan doing a good job. Bill Rosenberg economist for CTU with his usual thoughtful intelligent comment.

    John Sherwin, tax advisor says that IMF and OECD think it CGT should be on non-realised – Brash wanted that – with tax to be paid each year on such non-realisation.

    He says how do you define a family home? Also he says that in Oz people have invested highly in their own home because it won’t get CGT and therefore the investment money has not gone in to the general economy after CGT has been introduced but has stayed in housing, the individual’s chosen family home. The tax guy has made the point that capital losses should be recompensed if profits are to be taxed. What bullshit.

    Problems occur between 15% CGT and tax on overseas investment I think he referred to 33%. And the difference would have an effect which I can’t note as I didn’t hear all of it. But there is a purist way of looking at the CGT, and there is a positive change idea of introducing it, and there is a thoughtful way of seeing which way will work best in a fair way.
    It may be that CGT should go on all property sold, with family homes being treated specially so that it is paid on the amount over the average or mean price for the particular area for the last month.

    Another point was that people would hesitate to sell properties which otherwise they would have moved along. But providing they are being lived in then this would not diminish the housing market. There would have to be a watch on the ability to make a loss on a property and offset it against others. It has been good commercial sense to leave a desirable property vacant in a rising market and have it revalued monthly so that it can be used as asset base to borrow on. So there are possibilities of side effects that would not be helpful to effecting housing price reform.

    • Lanthanide 13.1

      “It may be that CGT should go on all property sold, with family homes being treated specially so that it is paid on the amount over the average or mean price for the particular area for the last month.”

      That seems like a fair compromise.

  11. Halcyon 14

    I am very concerned about Labour’s CGT policy and would suggest that it disadvantages those living in small rural towns like Tokoroa and Ohura.

    After becoming redundant three years ago we relocated to find work. Our family home was placed on the market. The market in this area is stagnant and like many houses it did not sell.

    As we were renting in our new location we rented the house out to cover costs after trying to sell it for six months. It still has not sold. We would like to buy in our new location but unfortunately we can not afford to do so until we sell.

    Now it would appear that we are going to be further penalised by having to pay CGT on our home when we do sell it. The only option would be to return to the home and go on the UEB until such time we find new work or we reach 65 and can retire.

    • Te Reo Putake 14.1

      It’s your family home, not an investment property. It wouldn’t attract CGT.

      • weka 14.1.1

        Hopefully that’s the way they will write the policy ie you don’t have to be living in the house for it to be the family home.

        • Te Reo Putake 14.1.1.1

          Here’s the policy in brief: http://campaign.labour.org.nz/capital_gains_tax

          Two more things that should put Halcyon’s mind at reat are the CGT only applies to future gains (ie gains post legislation) and that any technical issues will be dealt with separately. But the main thing is that the family home is exempt. I think the example Halcyon gives probably also applies to a lot of Chch families living elsewhere while quake damage is repaired. I can’t see Labour letting those folk down, do you?

          • weka 14.1.1.1.1

            Thanks, I’m just looking at the PDF too. I think Labour won’t want to let folk down (although bear in mind you are talking to a beneficiary here), if they’re made aware of the issues. But look at the number of people saying it’s about where you live. I can understand Halcyon’s concern.

            From the PDF,

            The following assets will be exempted from the scheme:

            The Family Home

            The main residence will be exempt, that is, the residence where you live most of the time.

            So maybe they allow for people in Halcyon’s position, although it wouldn’t surprise me if they put a time limit on it.

            Here’s the main general bit about trusts for those that haven’t seen it yet 😉

            If my family home is in a trust, will it be taxed?

            No. The fundamental principle is that the family home will not incur a CGT. We understand that people do sometimes place their family home in a trust to mitigate business or creditor risk. It’s not our intention to penalise those who have done this. Trust law is complex though, so how we manage this will be decided once we get advice from our Expert Panel.

            https://www.labour.org.nz/sites/default/files/issues/capital_gains_tax.pdf

            • Lanthanide 14.1.1.1.1.1

              “So maybe they allow for people in Halcyon’s position, although it wouldn’t surprise me if they put a time limit on it.”

              Certainly I think there will be a time limit, because obviously a situation like this for 18 months is quite different from one where it continues for 18 years.

              But I think even outside the timeframe situation, IRD would probably have a special circumstances allowance to exempt or re-calculate tax. For example, if Halcyon’s rental ended up returning a significant profit from the rental, they might be more likely to apply CGT (or a portion of it), compared to if it were making a loss or just break-even, based on the reason that they would like to sell it but can’t.

              Similarly if they showed an active intent to sell the house, IRD could look at that as well.

    • greywarbler 14.2

      @Halycon
      That’s definitely the type of anomaly that needs to be dealt with fairly in any CGT legislation.
      But if you are renting then you should still be entitled to claim your house as the family home for CGT purposes. If you had two houses, then there might be other criteria to consider.

    • Wreckingball 14.3

      The number of loopholes in this policy sickening. It will be so easy to jump through a few hoops to ensure that my houses are all considered family homes.

  12. brian 15

    Encouraging signs: Simple words that provide some evidence that a greater awareness of “less than clean” politics.

    We are all aware of “Dirty Politics”. The news today has introduced “Gotcha Politics” . I think there should be a special term for the use of people such as Cameron Slater: “Sewer politics”

    On a slightly different note, Cunliffe has done a good job in explaining the traits of John Key that initially made him popular, but have long since passed their “useby” date.

    On the debate he referred to Key playing the “school yard larrikin”. It was like a “Yes” moment for me in understanding an undesirable characteristic if overplayed.

    Yesterday I heard a quote from Cunliffe, telling us that he would rather be respected than liked. Of course John Key has lost a huge amount of respect over his involvement in my newly coined word “sewer politics”. But even without that issue, John Key’s has strived at all times to appear a “friend”, and has cared less about respect. It is a distinction that trips up many a parent. Not a distinction that we expect to trip up a Prime Minister

    • Puckish Rogue 15.1

      In the preferred prime minister stakes, TV3 had Mr Key on 45.1 per cent, up 3.7 points.

      Yep the shines coming off all right 🙂

      • Potato 15.1.1

        Yes, the shine is coming off because as much as you spray with gloss you still can’t polish a turd !

      • David H 15.1.2

        Oh Come on PR TV3 News ie Gower Obrien and Sabin. All ass kissing NACT supporters. Hard questions to the PM or to even point out all of the Bullshit that TricKey’s spewing is non existent. So TV3’s polls are the same all tilted one way.

    • Potato 15.2

      Love your thinking Brian. Yes, the term ‘sewer politics’ is a much better reflection of the behavior of this lot.

  13. would rather be respected than liked.

    That has special resonance for me. A couple of weeks before he died from mesothelioma, my father gave me the same advice:

    “Being liked is good … but it is better to be respected than liked.”

    I committed that advice to memory, word for word. It’s a great antidote for today’s focus on the superficiality of ‘personality’ as opposed to character.

    Speaking of which, here’s the ‘verdict’ from the Herald ‘panel’ on the minor leaders’ debate. (Bottom of article)

    Edit: Meant to be a response to comment 15 by brian

    • crocodill 16.1

      What was his definition of “respected”? I bet it isn’t what any of us think it is.

      I often remember the article you wrote about his ideal of “the guy who wins advances for the people, gets the payment last – or not at all”. Something about improvements to state housing, or the like, that he was involved in. It is a good principle, if principles are a person’s goal in life. Very Moses leading the people through the desert but never entering the promised land kind of outlook: Keeps a guy on the straight and narrow and away from easy conceit, hubris – or corruption for that matter.

      • Puddleglum 16.1.1

        If I think it’s what you were referring to, well remembered.

        Yes, it was when my father (in England) was a local ‘activist’ (they weren’t called that then) trying to get people out of ‘temporary’ prefabs after the WWII long after their supposed ‘use by’ date. (They had internal asbestos walls – but, of course, only the industry knew about the dangers of that then, and they weren’t telling anyone.)

        Mum kept on at him about getting us out of our prefab and he told her he couldn’t as others would just say he was in it for himself.

        Thanks for the reminder. I am very proud of my father.

        • swordfish 16.1.1.1

          Interesting about your father, Puddleglum.

          My grandmother was very active in the NZ Labour Party early 1920s – mid 1960s. She was heavily involved in the First Labour Government’s State Housing scheme and turned her activism in that direction again during New Zealand’s really awful post-war housing crisis, in which – like the UK – thousands of young families were living in really despicable conditions. ‘Rack-renting’ Landlords were a particular bug-bear. Near-Slum housing being rented out at grossly-inflated prices.

          As for crocodill’s recollection of your father’s dictum: “the guy who wins advances for the people, gets the payment last – or not at all”, I’ve just been thinking along those lines recently. I’ve been reading about the heroic efforts of German SPD activists in the 1870s/80s/90s when the whole of the German Establishment and middle-class society were determined to destroy them (as you may know, Bismark’s anti-Social Democrat Laws were even more severe than his anti-Catholic Kulturekampf Laws from the previous decade).

          German SPD activists were overwhelmingly working-class, often working in physically destructive jobs 6 days a week, but rather than taking the Sunday for a much-needed rest, they spent their one day off keeping the Social Democrat organisation going – organising, debating, building community groups, despite constant and often severe harassment from Police and State.

          And, of course, they themselves saw very little personal benefit in their lifetime.

          • Puddleglum 16.1.1.1.1

            Really interesting stuff there swordfish. Thanks.

            Sometimes – when I’m in my ‘two types of people’ mood – I think people can be divided into those who emphasise our ‘self-regarding’ inclination and those who emphasise our ‘other-regarding’ inclination.

            Adam Smith examined both (Wealth of Nations for the former, Theory of Moral Sentiments for the latter) and it recurs in most evolutionary accounts of human being.

            I think our society is seriously imbalanced towards the self-regarding inclinations at the moment for the simple reason that those inclinations are systematically encouraged and, paradoxically, exploited – consumerism, narcissism, etc..

            A case of cultivate the ‘resource’ you intend to exploit I guess.

  14. North 17

    The very title to Mr Northover’s piece in the Wanganui Chronicle acknowledges the dirt while counselling that it is churlish then to discuss it further. Not very bright of Mr N. He looks to be a faithful worshipper at the temple of TheGodKey. Whose faith equips him with nostrils wholly useless for one of their customary purposes.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/wanganui-chronicle/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503423&objectid=11314269

    Here in contrast is the non-precious issue- based view of another writer in the Wanganui Chronicle.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/wanganui-chronicle/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503423&objectid=11318224

    • Te Reo Putake 17.1

      Cheers, North. I know Jay Kuten, he’s been a mate of my Dad’s for years. I’ve had some great conversations with him, and he’s always entertaining and informative. His American background really gives him some insight and perspective about politics there and here, and know doubt he saw plenty of dirty politics over there in his younger years.

    • ianmac 17.2

      North I wrote on Northover’s rant that a true Kiwi who is concerned about integrity and trust would demand inquiry regardless of political stripe.
      And wrote in support of Jays response.
      Thanks for the link.

      • Jilly Bee 17.2.1

        I thought Jay’s last sentence was absolutely priceless – “He spent 40 years comforting the afflicted and intends to spend the rest afflicting the comfortable.”

  15. yeshe 18

    How can people be left in these situations by this criminal government ? It is beyond obscene … stealing lives with their careless ineptitude.

    Heartbreaking, and this should be criminal .. woman’s land valued in error at $5 by EQC and not corrected for four years

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/christchurch-earthquake-2011/10457263/EQC-battle-felt-like-the-twilight-zone

    To paraphrase Bush after Katrina to his disaster controller — “You did a heck of job Brownlee”.

  16. ianmac 19

    Just read a column by Kelvin Smythe (thanks Allan Moyle) pointing to Anne Tolley and the Ministry of Education using Whaleoil to destroy those who oppose National Standards. An opening quote from Kelvin: On page 43 of Dirty Politics is a potent paragraph:
    ‘Other minister’s offices began feeding information to Slater, such as Gillon Carruthers, press secretary for Education Minister Anne Tolley. ”I got those stats out of Tolley’s office, seems Gillon has worked out that feeding the whale might help,” wrote Slater in early 2011. “Yes, they should have all worked it out now, “Lusk replied.’
    http://networkonnet.wordpress.com/2014/09/03/the-ministry-of-education-and-whale-oil-an-introduction/

  17. Not a PS Staffer 21

    Sean Plunkett is to Radio Live what Leighton Smith is to NZTalk ZB.

  18. yeshe 22

    Toby Manhire tweet this morning … could be MAJOR election issue upcoming ..

    “with Obama working to coalition-build for Iraq, fair chance NZ response / relnship with US will become election issue next couple of weeks”

    Will you vote for USA or NZ, Mr Key ???

    • ianmac 22.1

      He did say that we should have helped in the last Iraq war but later backed off. But now? No doubt that should the question of backing USA come up soon, there will be a “Wait and See” sort of response.

      • yeshe 22.1.1

        Very interesting isn’t it, specially with promised KDC reveal before the election .. will be a vote turner if Key’s poodle-ism is made fully visible with evidence he was actively working against NZ.

        Factually, we know he worked against all NZ and profited subtstantially with his currency greed and didn’t care a damn. This won’t be any different … hollow man rattling.

        It will be very interesting imho, although I know many on here doubt KDC has anything at all but a damp squib. I’m thinking it is more likely to have equivalence to the NYE fireworks he sponsored in Auckland !!

  19. Ant 23

    So does anyone know David Cunliffe’s actual statment that the Herald has used for this story. The quote seems awfully truncated. Are the journalists back to their old trick of misquoting Cunliffe for hits, or did he muff it up?

    Yesterday when asked how long the heirs to an inherited family home would have to sell it before incurring the capital gains tax, he said: “It’s one month from decease”.

    On the campaign trail in Lyttelton this morning he said that he had only been giving “an example” and the actual grace period would be determined by an expert panel.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11319006

  20. Not a PS Staffer 24

    http://www.3news.co.nz/tvshows/campbelllive/more-to-govt-accounts-than-meets-the-eye-2014081919

    Government delaying EQC payouts to maintain accounting surplus.

    The Hagar book overshadowed this story. This could have more electoral impact of told properly.

    There has been a breach of statutory reporting requirements, in that EQC has failed to deliver a statement of performance expectations for the coming year.

    That statement should have been published before the end of June and would have outline EQC’s projected financial position in relation to earthquake claims. This delay reflects a desire to make EQC’s financial situation look a lot better than it actually is.
    That roles up to the Government accounts. Effectively the government is hiding a near $2 Billion hole.

    Judith Collins was the minister.
    Iain Lees-Galloway is the man to get this story out.

    • ianmac 24.1

      At the time it was pointed out in response to that story, that the report was not due until 1 July 2015. But it does seem true that the stalling by EQC is through lack of money because Mr English is using it to prop up his surplus. Actually would the people waiting for a decision on rebuild or trying for a job give a damn about a surplus?

    • yeshe 24.2

      not forgotten …. EQC running out of funds in The Press this morning. Key’s govt will be held to account for so much unnecessary suffering … while he merrily creates smoke screens and delivers a surplus ..

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/10457359/EQCs-cash-reserves-run-close-to-wind

      • Not a PS Staffer 24.2.1

        Clayton Cosgrave says he “would instigate a full review into EQC and the private insurance industry, which would reveal the best way to deal with any deficit. ” That is too fucking late.

        The pain is today and the political issue is today. Lees-Galloway and Cunliffe should treat this as a major election scandal. It is a more human story than the Collins saga.
        Families are breaking up. Businesses are failing. People are committing suicide. Why? The Governernment is deliberately delaying EQC settling so that Bill English can maintain a surplus story. That is SHOCKING.

    • Petrus 25.1

      Nice redirect. I loved this bit:

      “It is no accident that the current understanding of truthiness unfurled from Stephen Colbert’s satire of the American right. Psychologists have found that low-effort thought promotes political conservatism.”

  21. Puckish Rogue 26

    Either the reporter doesn’t know how to use google or this is proof of a pro-left wing bias in the media

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/09/pimping-poor-telling-truth/

    Of course the reporter might just be a bit useless…

    [Bunji: really? You’re citing WhaleOil? Has Dirty Politics taught you nothing? Try someone reputable if you want your argument to carry any weight at all]

    • Te Reo Putake 26.1

      Given that most readers here aren’t going to click on the link, perhaps you could elaborate?

      • Puckish Rogue 26.1.1

        Most telling especially if you like balanced reporting is the dudes involvement in the SFWU, now theres nothing wrong with that however it’d be nice if the reporter had mentioned that because it just looks like a press release from the SFWU as opposed to a genuine piece of reporting

    • tricledrown 26.2

      Wrinkled Rogue WO propaganda no investigation into the claims just pure BS!
      None of those car givers have received any back pay yet and most likely scenario is that the Caring contracted will go into liquidation and no job no back pay!

    • hoom 26.3

      Because a family of 4 with 2 workers & 2 school kids only has Outgoing on Rent, power, food & internet?

      I’m not exactly an expert on budgeting but just off the top of my head also these bare minimum:
      -Transport for 2 workers
      -Daycare/School costs
      -Kids transport/clothes/medical etc
      -Water/waste water
      -Phone/mobiles
      -Insurance
      -Random things that come up

      On Planet Key where everyone has brand new $78 million yachts & constant hollidays this stuff is Chump Change.
      But in Reality, people at the bottom end of the pay scale wind up without much to spare no matter how carefully they budget.

      • Puckish Rogue 26.3.1

        Its more that the person is in with the SWFU that suggests this is nothing more then a press release

        Had the journalist added that it might have been a balanced story but as it is its merely more evidence of the left-wing bias in media

        • hoom 26.3.1.1

          So being in a union means you can’t have a legitimate issue with your income?

          It does look like the Journo did a bad job not picking that relationship up.
          But its certainly no worse than the many journos who treat the Taxpayers Union & other rightie fronts as legitimate unquestionable sources & endlessly parrot their PR pieces.

          • Puckish Rogue 26.3.1.1.1

            So being in a union means you can’t have a legitimate issue with your income?

            – Certainly can but you also can’t claim to be just another joe average the media interviews

            It does look like the Journo did a bad job not picking that relationship up.

            – Not if they have a particular angle to push

            But its certainly no worse than the many journos who treat the Taxpayers Union & other rightie fronts as legitimate unquestionable sources & endlessly parrot their PR pieces.

            – As long as the article states where they’re from its ok so readers can make up their minds where they’re coming from

            • hoom 26.3.1.1.1.1

              All those articles quoting the rightie fronts clearly state that they are directly involved in dirty tricks via the PMs office huh?

              On Planet Key maybe…

    • Puckish Rogue 26.4

      Sticking your fingers in your ears and going lalalala may well work for you however if the last couple have shown us the information he receives and posts comes from very good sources

      But in this case it shows the link between the Left and the msm but being that the left don’t like it when the spotlight is cast on them I’m not surprised you won’t go and look at it

      • Tracey 26.4.1

        So, his emails can be trusted?

        You do understand that no one doubts his sources, like, Ms Collins.

    • Tracey 26.5

      Bunji

      He hasnt read it. He considers stuff from WO to be fact. Everything else is made up. I know why Nats want to increase literacy rather than critical and independent thinking.

      Exhibit A

      puckish rogue

  22. weka 27

    Laila Harre on how the IMP will change forming govt post-election,

    We won’t support National to form a government. We will promote all our policies in the new Parliament – including in post-election negotiations. And we won’t just rely on behind the scenes negotiations – we’ll be looking for public support to increase our bargaining power on our priorities. The idea of “bottom lines” is for those who play games with the two biggest parties.

  23. unpcnzcougar 28

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11319006

    This is for all of you who have over the last months (Tracey from yesterday especially) who told me I am totally incorrect about family exemption – inheritance. This effects all of us and those who have any influence on Labour policy need to get this sorted – it is a vote loser.

    [Bunji: thanks for the concern trolling. Worst case scenario (and CGT group may ease even this) is you pay capital gains tax on the increase in value from when you inherited the house that used to be a family home. So you still get your full family inheritance, plus 85% of any profit that house makes in between inheriting it and selling it. I think people who inherit a house will be more worried with grief than concerned about that piffling amount of tax.]

    • Te Reo Putake 28.1

      Cry me a river. Plenty of time when we’re the Government to get the details agreed. In the meantime, just reflect on the fact that the CGT is only 15%, which is a bargain compared to other countries, so even if it does apply, it ain’t gonna hurt that much.

      • ianmac 28.1.1

        It is 15% on the capital gain and not the total price. If you made a killing like $500,000 capital Gain then the 15% is pretty minor.

    • weka 28.2

      What’s the problem with the policy exactly, unpc?

      • Tracey 28.2.1

        John key says people wont have time to grieve but he omits the facts,

        1. You have to wait for probate before selling ANY of the estate. Usually weeks, sometimes months.

        2. Family home is exempt.

        3. Dont sell the house til you have grieved.

        Funny how many people are already grieving for the lil bit of money they might lose following their parent’s death. Grieving for money John?

    • Tracey 28.3

      Yaaaaaawn

      John key gets a score in the debate on cgt… And since then we have some old and new right wingers pushing their cgt misinformation.

      Dead people have NO worries.

      Cgt is on difference between purchase price and sale price @ 15% and not on family home.

      ” “Labour will introduce a capital gains tax, excluding the family home, so that people who make money speculating on the housing market and other assets have to pay tax on that income, just as people who work for their income do.

      “The parameters of this policy are as follows:

      • Rate: The CGT will be set at a simple low flat rate of 15 per cent with no indexation for inflation.

      • Gain: The tax will be applied to net gains.

      • Exemptions: The family home, personal assets, collectables, small business assets sold for retirement and payouts from retirement savings schemes, including KiwiSaver, will be exempt.

      • Scope: The CGT is broad-based and comprehensive.

      • Implementation: The CGT will be forward-looking and only apply to gains accrued after implementation. Past gains will not be affected.

      • Point of taxation: The tax will be applied on realisation. In most cases this will be the point of sale.

      • Treatment of gains at death: Capital gains on inheritance passed on after death will be rolled over to the heir, and not payable until the gain on the asset is realised.

      • Trusts: We will ensure trusts are not used as a means of avoiding a CGT.

      • Capital losses: Losses can be carried forward and offset against future capital gains.

      • Treatment of traders: Assets currently taxed at the individual’s marginal or at the business tax rate will continue to fall under the existing regime.

      • Expert Panel: An Expert Panel will be established to deal with issues that are technical in nature and involve areas where a high degree of specialised knowledge is required before a final decision can be reached.”…. “

  24. CnrJoe 29

    With Ogilvie and Franks inplicated in whaledump2 I’m in heaven. Remember this from morning report after Dirty politics came out?

    1.18 secs in

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/audio/player/20145759

    • Once Was Tim 29.1

      Who the hell would ever engage Jordan Williams as their lawyer? That latest dump shows he’s not above discussing what should be client priviledged info.
      I wonder how many jonolists are now regretting ever giving the guy any credence!
      Jim Mora?
      What a fucking disgrace!

  25. greywarbler 31

    While this performance of the Democracy Dance a la NZ goes on, there are the regular everyday problems piling up that don’t ever seem to be addressed or mitigated against even. Can-can anyone!! Whoops show us your knickers. The seriousness of our plight for the country just about needs cheap tricks of sensationalism like this to draw people’s minds towards what’s actually important, getting better government and an inclusive economy.

    And the latest invading organism – there is another bug that has come into NZ which is called willow aphid! They produce much honeydew and wasp numbers are building because of this. A report in an April 2014 Nelson paper reported that DOC said wasp densities in SI’s one million hectares of honeydew beech forests were the highest recorded anywhere on Earth at around 34 nests per hectare.

    Min Primary Industries trying to put figure on economic cost of wasps. They kill many thousands of beehives each year. Also in vineyards and orchards they eat grapes and spoil fruit. Estimates are that wasp numbers in forests would need to be reduced by more than 80% to conserve vulnerable invertebrate species.

  26. Kiwiri 32

    Newsflash – controlled entry into WINZ

    • Weepus beard 32.1

      Oh dear. Everyone who is at their most vulnerable will now be treated as a dangerous criminal.

  27. paddy 33

    Any truth in the rumour that Matt McCarten has resigned? Just heard it from a usually reliable mate. No idea why.

    [Bunji: saw that (blatant, cynical) attempted diversion from Jordan Williams on twitter. Consider yourself warned for trying it on here. Another attempt will result in a ban]

  28. Not a PS Staffer 34

    paddy is a Troll.

  29. joe90 35

    Gordon McLauchlan:

    How much the Prime Minister knew of all these machinations is open to question, but he was captain of the ship that has so badly lost its way and if he was just trustingly negligent does he thus escape any blame?

    What flabbergasts me is that he and, worse, most political columnists are telling me this is all a distraction and I should put it aside and concentrate on party policies.

    Am I some sort of weird retro-moralist who finds all this disgraceful, inexcusable and the main political issue of the day? The only way to get to the bottom of it is a full inquiry conducted with judicial rigour; so, of course, that won’t happen because too many people don’t want to get to the bottom of it.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11318596

  30. Ennui 36

    An internet outage today gives a perfect example of why it is important that this election goes against the corporate status quo. Telecom (aka Spark….jeez how much did that rebranding cost? and was it because Telecoms name was mud? and are they so thick that they think we will forget?) blamed Chorus (another Telecom company)…and nobody especially the layer of fat cat top dogs took a hit. Regulate the **** out of these bastards. To do that we need a new government.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/10460333/Internet-outage-hits-companies

  31. disturbed 37

    Have I missed something?

    We haven’t seen the terms of reference Key said he would release around Tuesday/Wednesday?
    If not released does that mean his choice of Cheryl Gwyn as legal reviewer is not playing patsy?
    Is Key worried it might dent his phoney polls?
    Someone shed light?

  32. Clemgeopin 38

    My GUESS of the real party vote % support so far:

    National=42%
    Labour=28%
    Greens=12%
    NZ First=8%
    CONS P=5%
    IMParty=3%
    Maori P=1%
    ACT P =1%
    Un Fut=0%

    Nat+Cons+Maori+ACT+UF=49%…….With NZF=57%
    Lab+Greens+IMP=43%…………………With NZF=51%

    There has to be a greater swing against the right wing parties for the success of Labour and the other two progressive parties.

    • Puckish Rogue 38.1

      Not bad but maybe a bit high for NZfirst and the IMP

      • Clemgeopin 38.1.1

        Actually my gut instinct is that both NZF and IMP will have a bigger % by election date than what I wrote above!

    • greywarbler 38.2

      Gosh I wish that Labour would announce that raising the super age to 67 is being put on hold at present, but is being held as possible future policy.

      That could take Nats down by 3 and put up Labour by 3. And I don’t see Wnston as getting 8% but if people get turned off National that might be where their vote will go.

      • Clemgeopin 38.2.1

        That is a tough one. ‘At the end of the day’, in the long run, it is better to be honest, realistic and upfront with the voters regarding bold difficult policies such as the retirement super problems and CGT than go for political expediency. If the voters are not wise and selfishly choose cheap temporary vote gathering stunts from Key and the right wing, they, the country and our future generation will bear the huge costs and the massive social and economic problems. They will end up getting the Government they deserve, though not deserved by the country and its future.

  33. paul scott 39

    There will be claw back from Conservative and NZF toward Nat. There was an interesting poll method devised quite some years ago where they got an ordinary person, specifically on average income, and measured that person, politically .
    To take an example me, centre right but disapproves of Corporate welfare, and loss of assets and land. You measure critically the change in feeling.
    When I was sure that NZ Nat would win, I was going to vote for Craig, or maybe Peters, if I was in a bad mood that day.
    Now its Nat two ticks. I hope the Social conservatives do reach the figures needed, but it will be without my vote. There is another thing. IMP are poison, and most average New Zealanders know this.
    IF DC were JC I still wouldn’t vote for him . we are not having German criminals in office.
    I am paid up to Conservative and NZF and Green. Not Nat .

    • Tracey 39.1

      Were ACT criminals ok to prop up your preferred choice?

    • crocodill 39.2

      Come now, you have to admit, on balance, German criminals have a history of being well-dressed. Kiwi criminal fashion isn’t so great, compared. If the result is the same, why not pick the better looking?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 39.3

      No German criminals are standing for office. In other words you’re operating under the implicit assumption that Laila Harré’s political principles are for sale, and so are Hone Harawira’s.

      The alternative, that Dotcom looked around to see which existing players he thought could do the most damage to John Key’s evil cabal (cf: the News) and flicked them a donation, no strings attached, doesn’t enter into your analysis.

      The Crown and the FBI have some issues with Section 8 of the Act, I still expect the court to order Dotcom’s extradition. At that point the Minister of Justice decides.

      On what planet are Harré or Harawira going to be Minister of Justice, and on what planet would either of them do a worse job than Judith Collins?

      • yeshe 39.3.1

        “and on what planet would either of them do a worse job than Judith Collins?” .. thx OAB .. nearly fell of my seat, I was laughing so hard 😀

  34. mora pushing the emails are forgeries line/lie..

    ..and then in the next breath totally focusing on the ‘crime’ of slaters’ emails being stolen..(!)..(but..!..but..!..aren’t they ‘forgeries’..?..)

    ..nothing on the content..

    ..and he mentions/identifies jordan williams (featured in recent whaledump) as heading the taxpayers union..and apologising for something in an email..

    ..no mention of him also being a panelist on his show..(!)..(is he no longer one..?..)

    ..and mora also pushing the false-equivalence of private individuals emails being hacked..

    ..tutt-tutting away..

    ..totally leaching out the political nature of this particular content..

    ..and the endemic/deep political-corruption it details..

    ..he is such a spinner for the right..that mora…

    ..whoar..!

    ..beware the affable-chap..!

    • Petrus 40.1

      Jordan’s not back on The Panel: however, John Bishop (yesterday’s Panel) is Chairman of the BOD of the Taxpayers’ Union.

      http://www.taxpayers.org.nz/who_we_are

      Perhaps that explains why Dieter di Boni did that magnificent boilover. Great stuff.

      • phillip ure 40.1.1

        yeah..she was good..

        ..i wonder if she will be invited back again..

        ..and up against another one of those rightwing-trouts plse..

        ..there are plenty to choose from..

      • Puddleglum 40.1.2

        Interestingly, in your link is the bio for Jordan McCluskey that includes this interesting tid-bit:

        Jordan joined the Taxpayers’ Union just prior to its public launch as a contracted researcher. He is often the go-to for information requests and is often allocated material that arrives on the “tip-line”.

        ‘Tip line’ – Strange turn of phrase but I feel like I’ve heard it elsewhere.

  35. vto 41

    if a person has one eye different from the other when it is not normally so then caution is required ….

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10460390/National-lines-up-35-more-towns-for-UFB

    amy adams

    up there with the best …

    • crocodill 41.1

      One eye different? Why, what does she usually look like? I noticed she was blinking especially rapidly – overly defensive. Only one possible conclusion: the mothership is close and they’re all reverting to reptilian form.

      • phillip ure 41.1.1

        “..the mothership is close and they’re all reverting to reptilian form…”

        ..heh..!..i agree..!

        ..key is looking more and more reptilian every day..

        ..and i swear that when he nervously licked his lips the other day..

        ..that his tongue was forked..

  36. weka 42

    Advance voting stats show 2.2 times more people have voted than this time last election. Anyone know if anything has changed in process?

    http://www.elections.org.nz/events/2014-general-election/advance-voting-statistics

  37. Tautoko Viper 43

    If I have read the linked document (p 56) correctly, the 7 Board members of the HPA got a total of $126,000 in fees so Katherine Rich would probably have received about $15,000 from the public purse while at the same time using Slater to undermine some of the policies which were in the best interests of public health!
    What say you about this, Mr Key?

    http://www.hpa.org.nz/sites/default/files/documents/PDF-HPA_Annual%20Report-2013.pdf

  38. Weepus beard 44

    Goat-shooter hate speech site watch:

    Two half hour posts have been missed for the first time since I’ve been keeping an eye on the place.

    Worrying signs for the hateful, racist right…

  39. ScottGN 45

    The Yes vote for Scottish Independence seems to be on a bit of a roll. The whole thing might be closer than anyone expected.
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-poll-surge-in-yes-support-1-3528052

  40. joe90 46

    Tim Murphy ‏@tmurphyNZH

    Injunction time. Everyone set to go off to court Friday. #whaledump

    https://twitter.com/tmurphyNZH/status/507407769876451328

  41. karol 47

    Gee John Key looked and sounded like a petulant schoolboy on 3 News tonight – sneering at Cunliffe’s stumbles over CGT and calling it a “stupid” policy. Sooooo prime ministerial! Not.

    • Ant 47.1

      It’s bloody frustrating to watch, the same old tired double standard of Labour policy having to display the finest level of detail, whereas Key and National can announce whatever the fuck they like with no scrutiny.

      There’s nothing wrong with leaving certain policy detail to when you are government and have the benefit of a government resources to do it right.

      • karol 47.1.1

        Well, before that on 3 News tonight, they reported they Key/Nats’ promised tax cuts was a fizzer. But they treated Cunliffe’s stumbles as being on a similar level as a failed policy.

      • Bearded Git 47.1.2

        +1 Ant. Though Gower did a good job of showing what a total fizzer National’s housing policy is. Epic fail.

        Lots of people voting in NZ election in London (was on tv3); more than twice as many casting Advance Votes on the first day (though it is easier this time round; you don’t need to give a reason to vote early).

        Hopeful signs of a good turnout which might indicate people want this lot out?

  42. karol 48

    Should I have received my easy vote card/package by now?

    • Bearded Git 48.1

      You don’t need it karol. Just wander along with some ID and vote. Could not be easier.

    • Karen 48.2

      Yes you should have received it.

      I haven’t got mine either. Is it deliberate? Now getting really paranoid.

      • karol 48.2.1

        Thanks, BG.

        I recall getting a letter from the Electoral commission to my PO Box. I put it in whatever bag I had at the time, thinking, “I know what that is”, without opening it. But now, if I have it, I don’t know where I put it.

        • Kiwiri 48.2.1.1

          I gave my name and address. The officer looked that up, etc and I voted.
          Very easy.
          (I have not received my easy vote card/package yet – not necessary for that.)

          • karol 48.2.1.1.1

            Thanks. I have the last letter from the Electoral Commission checking my details, address, etc.

            • Kiwiri 48.2.1.1.1.1

              You should be ok. Just turn up. Bring that letter if you wish.
              And if you really really wanna to double check, have a look online by entering your details here:

              https://enrol.elections.org.nz/app/enrol/#/check

              I figured today that I was ready. I got tired of following the stupid statements in the media from JK and decided I should do myself a favour and just exercise my right to vote.

              I am feeling much better this evening. Will put my effort and time to helping Labour, Greens and IMP campaign from tomorrow and for the next fortnight.

      • weka 48.2.2

        The easyvote packs are due out around the 13th. They’re not needed to vote.

        • hoom 48.2.2.1

          But they make it easier which is an important thing.

          Also I wasn’t sure whether it had actually been confirmed that they are coming, I remember there being some debate about Nats being keen to kill the card off.

  43. Bearded Git 49

    Brownlee has refused to turn up to Campbell Lives’ 4 year anniversary of chch quake on tv3 at this moment. JC has a hall full of very disgruntled quake victims and not a government member or EQC person in sight.

    Not a good look.

  44. Bearded Git 50

    Slater is off to the High Court to stop Whaledump! it’s here:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11319181

  45. joe90 51

    Trouble at mill.

    What is clear is the most grave thing National fears is the release of emails exchanged between Whaleoil founder Cameron Slater and Jason Ede – the Prime Minister’s point-man between his office and ‘the bloggers’.

    The Ede emails are communications that lead back to the Office of the Prime Minister, to John Key himself and his Chief of Staff who oversees the handling of this political appointee. Jason Ede was initially employed by former National Party leader Don Brash, his salary paid for by Parliamentary Service. But when Key took over he kept Ede on the payroll. And when Key became Prime Minister he appointed Ede as an advisor in his 9th Floor Beehive suite, vetted by the Security Intelligence Service, and once cleared, placed on Ministerial Service payroll.

    Contacts inside National say Ede’s appointment was initially a mystery not only to the Party’s officials, but to their Ministers too. The question of what Ede’s purpose was, has for some been answered by the revelations in Nicky Hager’s book Dirty Politics.

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/09/04/investigation-nationals-campaign-flying-blind-what-national-fears-most-and-where-it-is-most-vulnerable/

  46. ianmac 52

    That will be a very tricky one for the Courts. Could the Court argue that it cannot be a crime until after it is published? Ironically Slater has published leaked and stolen stuff frequently.
    Mr Key will of course be totally free from any association to Slater.
    Headline to come: “Government Blocks Democracy!”
    or “Government Fears Disclosure!”
    or “Herald Defends Democracy!”

  47. North 53

    SlaterPorn……..S-0-0-0-0 the Master of the Planet Key Universe…….’cept that the Planet Key Universe now thinks he’s Ebola personified. It’s bloody hilarious.

    No matter what happens 9/20 there’s some serious scum outa the game, for good. And demonstrably the game’ll be the better for it. The dogs in the street are screamin’ it. Everyone knows it ! And the wonders of Digital Globalism will see Rawshark out there whatever the High Court of New Zealand says…….at the cost of maybe $60,000 to start, for Mr SlaterPorn. That’s just ill-spent outrage, vanity money which no doubt Mr (“I need you to need me”) Bhatnaghar’ll stump up for.

    Poetic, Poetic, Poetic !

    • “..Bhatnaghar’ll stump up for. .”

      maybe not since the emails reveal bhatnagar being described by his ‘friends’..

      ..as ‘just a fat indian’..

    • miravox 53.2

      No matter what happens 9/20 there’s some serious scum outa the game, for good. And demonstrably the game’ll be the better for it.

      National will probably win the election battle (after all, governments change when they use up their goodwill, and Key had plenty of that), but they’ll lose the war. It’s almost worth seeing them implode while in power, except for the damage they’ll do to the country while in there.

  48. joe90 54

    Cornered rats.

    Matthew Hooton ‏@MatthewHootonNZ

    To the senior @NZNationalParty figures who have been putting it about today I’m on drugs: 1) I’m not. and 2) please stop saying I am #nzpol

    https://twitter.com/MatthewHootonNZ/status/507462595196887040

  49. ianmac 55

    By the way tonight Campbell Live had a hall full of the people who had not had decisions made on their Earthquake problems. Each held a sign identifying whether it was EQC or Insurance as their problem.
    The point was that Brownlie, EQC, and Insurance Council boss were invited. Each cancelled. The word out is that Campbell is accused of setting out to embarrass the Govt. They are not happy with John. John said it was just to mark the 4 year anniversary.
    Actually to see a whole Hall of distressed people is different from a percentage of jobs completed. Very sad really.
    There will be repercussions especially since John C is moderating the TV3 debate. Watch this space.

    • Paul 55.1

      Looks like Christchurch has had a gutsful of this governments false promises.
      Key failed to do more than provide platitudes to questions posed about the city during the Press debate.

  50. Paul 56

    “Oil tax: Norway could teach Australia a thing or two about managing wealth
    Thanks to natural resources, Norway is a country of five million trustifarians – with each person theoretically being a millionaire. In Australia, mining benefits a selected few.”

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/04/oil-tax-norway-could-teach-australia-a-thing-or-two-about-managing-wealth

  51. Sorry to harp on about Labour’s CGT but I see real problems with it. My son-in-law and daughter bought a run down house for $250,000. They spent $20, 000 on materials and approximately 1500 hours working on the house in their spare time.
    ( At the minimum wage rate that equates to $21,750.) It is now valued at $275,000.

    According to Labour’s CGT policy on their website, the couple would still have to pay tax on the increased value. That appears very unfair when considering the amount of work and effort spent.

    • joe90 57.1

      Why, they pay tax on any other hours they work.

    • lprent 57.2

      Sounds like another right wing myth making point.

      Firstly, the effect doesn’t apply to current homes! Since you haven’t said that it is their home then I assume it is an investment property because the CGT doesn’t apply to family homes.

      Secondly, if it is an investment process then costs for capital improvement are recovered in exactly the same way as every other business. Costs that are part of the running costs are recovered on a year by year basis in reduced profits that are taxable. That includes their own labour. It is offset against the income made from renting the property out. Like any decent business you have to maintain accounting records. Just charge costs against the property. Of course if you put your own labour in, then you have to account for it including paying tax on the income from that labour – just like we all have to do.

      So keep the receipts, value their own work, and hold the property. They will get taxed on capital increases less the capital upgrades that went into it. Exactly the same as every other business.

      Those are the kinds of details that get dealt with in the legislative processes, especially the select committee. But as far as I can see you are just raising spurious delusions.

      We need a better level of wingnuts. Some of them appear to not understand normal business practices. It amazes me that they make a profit out of running an investment property now.

    • blue leopard 57.3

      It is my understanding that the CGT tax is to get people thinking more constructively when wishing to make money and not just going for the lazy and price-inflating option of buying and selling houses. The aim is so that people investing their money has a positive effect for others rather than a negative one.

      I watched a property get sold and then onsold every few years for approx $20,000 more each time. The first few times this happened, the only thing the people did to the property was mow the lawns (it was an empty section). One lot planted a few shrubs. This was ‘a good little earner’ for the people involved, however it simply pushes prices up for everyone else.

      But wait! There’s more…After having bought the section off a couple who had built on it, the wealthiest ‘investor’ (a multi-millionaire who appeared to be even more motivated than any of the others to ‘make money on their money’) bought it. One of the two [humble] dwellings was removable. The wealthy investor removed it and onsold the property pretty shortly after buying it, no doubt at a profit.

      It was watching the activities associated with that section that gave me an appreciation of how individual’s decisions, which might seem great for them, actually cause problems (like inflating prices) for everyone else. A lot of the time the profit that was made, was made without adding any value at all ( or only nominal value) and on one occasion profit was made despite value having been taken away.

      I thoroughly welcome Labour’s move to try and direct money into more productive enterprises by introducing capital gains and other measures. This needs to occur.

      Oh, and by the way, the people who bought the land off the multimillionaire were, of course, very wealthy and from overseas themselves.

      I say ‘of course’, because this type of activity inflates the prices of land to the point where ordinary New Zealanders’ can not afford it.

      (Or they would not agree to such prices whereas new arrivals are less aware how over-priced some people are selling their land for because they have not adjusted to our currency and cost of living yet.)

      • BM 57.3.1

        These people should be paying income tax and gst on any profit made, the question is why aren’t they?

        The real issue I see is that the IRD is not chasing the people who buy houses and quickly flick them on hard enough.
        From my experience these people are usually the ones who already have a job, they get a builder to knock up a place as quickly and cheaply as possible, they then paint paper, tile, landscape etc at night and on the weekends then either live in it for a very small period of time than sell or sell straight away if they can.

        The genuine developers already pay a substantial amount of tax as it is it’s the other group that’s the issue.

    • KJT 57.4

      I spent over half the year at work last year. A lot more work and effort than a few hundred hours on a house.

      Like all nearly all on middle to higher wages or honest SME owners, I paid tax on all the money earned. Something I am fine with as the cost of living in a functioning society.

      Why should someone who works at renovating a house be exempt? A builder who renovates a house is not.

    • tricledrown 57.5

      Hal You can’t have both ways a shop buys in a product in raw materials say flowers wrap them up in fancy packing make 200% profit!
      They are taxed on after expenses profit!
      They worked hard invested for a profit had to pay tax no difference for property investors!
      If they charge their hours to a job they have to pay tax on income for those hours,Then the materials and other expenses can be written down.
      If your children have to rely on dodging tax to make a profit they shouldn’t be in the game!
      The IRD had strict rules around how many times you can move house for a profit!

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