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Open mike 04/12/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:51 am, December 4th, 2014 - 157 comments
Categories: open mike, uncategorized - Tags:

Judith CollinsOpen mike is your post.

The Standard is not a conspiracy – just a welcome outlet for the expression of views. Leaders that command respect will not be undermined by this.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

157 comments on “Open mike 04/12/2014 ”

  1. Paul 1

    No money for poverty.
    No money for food in schools.
    And why would our government, as Key has noted there are hardly any kids needing food in the schools he visits?

    Will the government have some spare for some millionaires and billionaires needing a handout?


    No doubt another shameful aspect of NZ that the sociopaths like pr will defend.

    • halfcrown 1.1

      No no no Paul you have got it wrong, think of all the jobs it will bring to NZ if the cup comes back to NZ. All those additional waiters and servants required on zero hours contracts.

      • tricledrown 1.1.1

        What about all the boat builders up and down the country.
        Jobs well paid high skilled well paid jobs.
        The boat building industry has grown from $120 million a year to $2 billion a year on the back of New technology and high quality workmanship.
        After all the investment New Zealand has made in this high value industry it would be very foolish to throw it all away!
        I have studied economics for a long time now,One big growth trend is making money out of wealthy people.
        Its one Area in manfacturing that we are World leaders we can not afford to loose our edge.
        7 Out of 10 America,s cup boats were built right here in New Zealand the GST payments off just this section of the boat building industry.
        We also build super yatchs having our industry on show in Bermuda!
        Its time we took the bull by the horns and looked for other niche manufacturing industries which New Zealand is good at and target the uber rich they have deep pockets and pay well.
        Taxing them doesn,t work that well as they buy goverment or move their money to where they Don,t pay any tax!
        Targeting products they buy and suppling the wealthy with high value high quality products is much smarter long term!

        • Murray Rawshark

          How many boat builders were able to employ more people at good wages after the 8 straight losses at the last exhibition of obscene wealth being blown around by the wind? Possibly less than we would have had without the stupid race.

          • Colonial Rawshark

            Oh why not turn our entire economy into one designed to serve the 0.1%?

            Won’t that be fun and fulfilling for everyone else?

            At the end of the day however, such an economy doesn’t add up. Building McYachts, McMansions and selling McSUVs won’t form the backbone of any worthwhile civilisation.

            • greywarshark

              You are so right. While we wait for the situation to be redeemed maybe we should try to keep some industry afloat in NZ, something that’s in water and not milk.

        • Paul

          Yeas of course.
          Trickledown has worked so well for the past 30 years.

        • b waghorn

          How much money would have to come into the country in boat building revenue to get 34million in tax off it . have to say I loved watching those big boats fly.

        • Tracey

          they build whether we win or lose. we have had world. lass designers and builders used by the world since the 70s

        • Draco T Bastard

          I have studied economics for a long time now,One big growth trend is making money out of wealthy people.

          Yeah, so have I. The problem is that you’re not talking economics there but finances which is a completely different kettle of fish.

          Economics is about managing limited resources, specifically, minimising their use. If the economics you champion results in ever greater use of those resources then it is uneconomic.

    • Wonderpup 1.2

      I haven’t visited Auckland much, but I was there for a week recently. Two images have stuck in my mind: a yacht crew carrying their gear through the viaduct, emblazoned with brands and wearing sunglasses that cost more than I earn in a week, and the guys sleeping the the doorways of the city mission, next to the YMCA where I was staying.

      Sadly, i think KDC should have saved his money for the yachties. It might well have had more impact on his position.

    • millsy 1.3

      Would be OK if we actually won the damn thing, which to do you much actually be in front of the other boat when you cross the finish line. Despite what people might think, you cannot win the America’s Cup just by turning up to the race.

      We have all moved on from 1995 and Peter Blake’s red socks.

      The whole thing’s become a circus anyway. It used to be, that it you wanted to host an America’s Cup regatta, you had a win the thing. Now you can just write a cheque out and you get it anyway.

      • greywarshark 1.3.1

        Peter Blake’s money raising red socks – buy and donate to the NZ challenging the big boys cause – not made in NZ red socks.

        That is so common now it is a cliche. Even the RSA got their red poppies to remember the NZ fallen sourced from overseas – I think from Aussies who probably ordered them from Asia. e&oe This is conjecture though.

  2. tc 2

    Hope they do as it reinforces the govt priorities of the wealthy elite first…..another brick in the wall of arrogance muddle nz need to wake up to given such issues as you’ve highlighted Paul.

    It used to be about boat racing, now it’s about the size of billionaires dicks or wannabes like JK.

  3. john keys’ political bucket-list:..a report card..the top three..

    number one:..asset-strip anything worth selling…done..!..(just some mopping up of state houses to attend to..)

    number two:…long-war on poor/workers’-rights…underway..!..inequality rules..!

    number three:..(finally!) get to go to actual war in iraq:..nearly done..nearly there..!

    • Paul 3.1

      4. Degrade education so more charter schools can be set up ready for privatisation of education.
      5. Degrade Health system so more private institutions and insurance can be set up ready for privatisation of health.

      If you want to see our future under Key, just look at New Orleans in the U.S. , where shock doctrine was applied after Katrina to privatise education.
      As for Health, watch Michael Moore’s Sicko to get a feel for the health policy Key and his cronies are prepared to deliver for their banking and corporate masters.

  4. Wairua 4

    Hey, give Judith a break. She is obviously distressed with someone shoving a camera in her face. Have you heard of ‘noblesse oblige`’ ?

    Even misguided conservatives should be treated with some respect.

    My french is a bit rusty so if someone can correct it, please go ahead.

    • @ wairua..

      ..no she isn’t..she’s thinking about what she wd like to do to nicky hager..

      ..(she’s having a ‘crusher’-moment..)

      • felix 4.1.1

        That is a picture of Judith meditating.

      • Clemgeopin 4.1.2

        Nicky Hager didn’t do anything for her to lose her cabinet position. She was brought down by the members of her own DP side, people like Slater, Odgers and Key, remember?

        • phillip ure

          @ clem..


          i’m sure she does…

          ..the thing to remember with national..is those two warring factions..who hate each other almost more than they hate everyone else..

          ..there is the boag-faction..and for want of a better name..the slater-faction..

          ..and for onlookers/non-believers..it’s like choosing between the devil and the deep blue sea..

          ..hard to tell which is worse..

          ..and you kinda hope they will just fall upon and eat each other..

  5. The lost sheep 5


    Now we are only the second least corrupt country on Earth, by a sliver.

    I’m surprised no one posted this already.

  6. North 6

    Picture of Judith – Poor Judith – a difficult moment in the smallest room in the backbenchers’ lobby looks to me. A concerted attempt to negate the resonating charge – “You’re full of it Jude !”

  7. For those of you who think that spying was only a problem in East European countries and it was them damn Russkies who where so evil that they killed millions of their own for merely speaking truth to power, here is a nice history of the elite spying on their own people in the Western world. All 5000 years of it:

    5,000 Years of History Shows that Mass Spying Is Always Aimed at Crushing Dissent

    • Bugger, Lost link. Here it is: 5,000 Years of History Shows that Mass Spying Is Always Aimed at Crushing Dissent

      • Tautoko Mangō Mata 7.1.1

        The other thing that concerns me is the fact that there is an incentive for groups like the GCSB, the SIS and the Police to favour right wing governments because RW govts will increase powers of surveillance. The actions or inactions on the Hager/Slater and Jon Stephenson reinforce my view that these groups are becoming more active in discouraging any dissent, almost as if they are sending out a warning to dissenters to intimidate them. How can environmentalists be regarded as “terrorists”? There was a good interview of Jason N Parkinson on Nine to Noon on the UK surveillance of journalists.

        • greywarshark

          Those interested in the surveillance state expansion would be interested in thes interview with a Brit journalist this morning on Radio NZ. I heard part of it and remember him saying that he is a journalist who regularly covers protests and exposes behaviours on the left or right that are outside correct and lawful practices.

          He commented that he had applied to see his secret service file and finally got it by knowing the small print and file No. to ask for and found how much stuff was on him. Exhaustive contents. Also environmental protests were noted and his work and contacts on those, yet one he did on some right wing outfit that started in 2009 and was revealed to be plotting events, with one Brit solder making nail bombs in his bedroom on his days off, was not mentioned.

          It sounds as if the police are paranoid and definitely harrassed him as a registered journalist going about his lawful business. I think he said that in 2007 it seemed to be hotting up and in that year he was stopped, I think, 23 times and questioned while on his way to report some left-wing type of event.

          British journalists spied on by state, put on extremist list ( 24′ 12″ )
          09:20 Jason N Parkinson is a freelance video journalist, who covers subjects ranging from environmental disaster to conflict. He was nominated for the Rory Peck News Award for his work during the Egyptian revolution and in London during the riots.
          Jason is one of six members of the British National Union of Journalists who are asking the English High Court for a judicial review of the collection and retention of surveillance data about them. He says he and other journalists were subject to wide-ranging surveillance and put on a domestic extremist list, simply for doing their jobs.

  8. weizguy 8

    When will the media stop presenting Transtasman as an impartial source?


    Are they going to quote Farrar’s ratings as well?

    • Murray Rawshark 8.1

      What a ridiculous list. Maybe Farrar sent it off to them. Who the hell are Transtasman?

      • North 8.1.1

        What alot of crap ! – “…..and his party romped home in its third election, the third time in a row it has added extra seats as well.”

        Third time in a row ? Sorry ? It’s sort of normal I think that on winning one’s first term one normally wins additional seats. Sort of definitional.

        So it’s actually the second time in a row.

        That’s the sort of rubbish that happens when a know-nothing writer sets out to gush predisposed superlatives.

      • lprent 8.1.2

        From the way they have been operating in the past few years I have often wondered that myself.

    • Paul 8.2

      Just when you thought the media could not be more biased, they publish the view of a bunch of right wing journos.

  9. les 9

    does Gerry Brownlee think hes …Hermann Goering!

  10. Colonial Rawshark 10

    The US middle class spending crash

    Most interesting in this Zero Hedge article are the comments – people scrimping and saving, unable or unwilling to spend money in restaurants and bars any more, going to home brew instead of buying a beer.


    Meanwhile in April this year, NYC apartment prices hit record highs of US$970K. Sounds very much like a tale of two cities eh. For the 1%, and that for everyone else.


    • Sabine 10.1

      The same is happening here in AKL. I have a small shop, hand made chocolates and the likes, and I can tell you from daily experience that people are counting the pennies, and then then turn them over a few times before spending them.

      I am still doing well enough to keep myself and the two shop girls busy, but it should not get any worse.

      But I guess you are not going to see an article in the NZ Herald about peeps not buying boats and big SUV on the paper value of their not yet paid off houses.

      It is not a tale of two cities, it is a tale of a hand full of very rich against the rest of the country.

      • Colonial Rawshark 10.1.1

        Well, retail and the service sector in Dunedin are definitely struggling at the moment (although as always there are stronger sectors and weaker ones). And looking around what should be the centre of town there are far too many empty commercial lots, many of them large, and a number of which have been untenanted for 6 months or more.

        What no one is looking forward to is the flow on effect of lower milk prices…

    • greywarshark 10.2

      Meanwhile the capitalists rub their hands and praise the prospect of doing business with the burgeoning middle class in China and India. The old middle class in USA has been decimated (into deciles) by their country’s business corporate machinations with their politicians. That is, the western capitalists have fouled their own nest but no matter, find a new nest to foul overseas and leave the chicks to rot in the old one.

  11. “..6 Things You Should Know When Buying and Consuming Legal Marijuana..”

    ..Whether you haven’t toked since the 70′s –

    – or you’re entirely new to the experience –

    – here’s the starting place..”


    (ed:..i’m having a ‘we can but dream’-moment..)


  12. Skinny 12

    I’m most impressed with David Parker who has regrouped after losing the leadership contest, and come out swinging strongly from the back benches, well done chap. Parker is absolutely correct that PC Plod are dragging their heels over investigating some of Hager’s claims.

     The Fuzz are playing favourites, and I would like to know who is pulling their strings and why?    

    • Puckish Rogue 12.1

      “Now I can’t name either of those sources and I can’t prove those allegations to be true and they are both hearsay allegations to me, but these allegations must be investigated.”

      Littles doing well but he doesn’t need chumps like Parker dragging him down

      • adam 12.1.1

        I disagree, Little was doing well, till he supported the terror legislation. That just reminds me, as it should remind others – Labour are nothing but a bunch of corporate elects.

        • Puckish Rogue

          Well I think he showed pragmatism on that, its fine to be all tub thumping to appeal to your core but when you get the information you then have to do the right thing by your country and if hes elected leader then hes the leader of the whole of NZ not just the anti-war left
          So on this its no negative feedback for Little

          • adam

            Anti-war, misdirection and diversion? I’m not anti-war – I just don’t see the point in fighting wars for other countries/corporations. This piece of legislation is an attack on civil liberties, I’d have thought the right wing were fan’s of freedom. As I get older, I’m finding they are not.

            So let me be the voice of freedom – I don’t want my freedoms stomped on because your a little scaredy cat – who jumps at your own shadow. I’m over wimps on the right, who feel they are justified to feed their paranoia and fear to the general population.

            The big bad terrorist ,is a lie – bit like the big bad communist lie. Just change the rhetoric from the 1950’s to now.

            • Puckish Rogue

              Well I respect your opinion but i think ISIS is something that needs to be combatted and it needs to be done by multiple countries

              However Little must have something he wasn’t expecting to change his mind

              • Puckish Rogue


                However Little must have seen something he wasn’t expecting to change his mind

              • adam

                ISIS is falling apart, if we strangle off the money coming from the Saudi Arabia and others. Their days would be severely numbered. Good old economic terrorism that the west is good at. Why do we need to put troops on the ground? We don’t.

                How can I be so confident ISIS is fubar? They have completely wiped out the middle classes, either in a physical sense or in the fact most of the professional classes are running away from them. How long do you think they will be able to operate a modern society, without a professional class? And failing that, how long do you think they will be able to contain a youthful population look at the luxury and lifestyle modernism has to offer? ISIS is a pitiful joke, and only nut jobs who want to send our young men and women off to die, seem to be under the illusion that this whacked out army of boy jihadists aren’t going to eat themselves – if we do the right thing, and cut the money off.

                • b waghorn

                  You are assuming they want a modern society which I doubt they want to go back to the dark ages were believing in mythical being’s are used to control the youthful population.

              • Draco T Bastard

                ISIS is something that needs to be stopped but they need to be stopped by the people who live there. If they’re stopped by those from outside then they’ll just arise again in a probably worse form.

                • millsy

                  We also need to work out why young men from all over Europe (the world?) are joining up to fight for groups for ISIS. It seems to me we are have thrown a whole generation of young people on the scrap heap, called them lazy and useless, and then wonder why they are starting to like what the bloke down at the local mosque has to say.

                  • adam

                    Great point millsy.

                    The anti-youth rhetoric has amped up of late.

                    We have thrown our young to the wolves. It sickens me. Neo-liberalism is a beast which eats our mokopuna.

                • adam

                  +100 Draco. Could not agree more. But lets help the people there, by stopping ISIS getting the money from supporters around the region, and lets stop pretending Saudi Arabia is an ally of ours.

      • McFlock 12.1.2

        thanks for your concern /sarc

      • Paul 12.1.3

        Hello c73

    • i dunno skinny..parker is still number one on my list of mp’s ‘most likely to go postal’..

      ..there is much grindingly-unfufilled there..anger both seethes and drips from him..it has even made his face all puffy/blotchy..and his voice has changed..all dangerous signs..)

      ..(in other recent moves on that list..brownlee has jumped to number two..and tho’ he is minister of defence..i wd advise he be kept well clear of any actual weapons..

      ..and of course.kennedy graham..with his death-ray eyes/gaze is always somewhere in the top five..

      ..and foss-the-hapless often seems to be barely hanging on..so is also there..)

    • Manuka AOR 12.3

      @Skinny – I think DP is Shadow Attorney General?

      Yes, he’s doing well with this call. “Go David.”

    • Murray Rawshark 12.4

      Ngati poaka don’t need their strings pulled. They know instinctively where their loyalties lie. In that respect, they’re a lot like journalists. What they both need is continuous pressure to do their jobs properly.

  13. Ben Adam 13

    Is there anyone here, artist/cartoonist, that can draw a caricature of Key, with the Pinocchio’s long nose, with his pants on fire, hands raised high up in the air like Nixon’s and a speech bubble coming out of his bum with the words, “Awkchully, honestly speaking, at the end of the day, I don’t lie!”

    • or..referring to slater..

      “i did not have proactive-relations with that man”..

    • cogito 13.2

      You seen this:
      “John Key has been given what could be the first in a string of politician-of-the-year awards, with the annual Trans Tasman roll call putting him “head and shoulders” above the rest”.


      • lprent 13.2.1

        Yes Trans Tasman do seem to have been getting steadily dafter and right over the years. Their analysis used to be pretty good with a known slant.

        But everything I have seen in recent years can be characterized as being written by a wingnut and one with a similar political and economic skill level to Mike Hoskings – ie more characterized by bigotry than analysis.

      • Murray Rawshark 13.2.2

        At a superficial glance, he does seem preferable to idiots like Abbott and Bjelke-Newman. However, with a second glance you see that the only difference is in the presentation. They’re all as thick, dishonest, and arrogant as each other.

      • miravox 13.2.3

        On the Trans Tasman basis it would be a straight forward choice to give Putin international politician of the year then.

  14. Manuka AOR 14

    The single most significant task facing Aotearoa –

    IMO it is identifying exactly how much and which areas of our land are now in foreign ownership, or longterm leasehold. When the land is gone, what do have? Who are we? Do we even exist as a nation? There is an urgent need for a comprehensive audit of this, with publication of the results, as well as the basic register of foreign owners.

    The housing shortage is only one part of the problem: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11368465

    • rawshark-yeshe 14.1

      Will be a useless register while folks can fly in from China for a weekend on a visa given because of their gold credit card status and buy as much property as they wish to purchase, tax-free with money borrowed at 0.5% in China and easy to get into NZ due to direct currency trading now of Chinese renmimbi to NZ dollars. (Thanks JK.)

      I’m not xenophobic, but reporting facts. One Chinese ‘tourist’ man can be identified as now owning 50 houses in Auckland by doing exactly as I have written above.

      Where to begin to correct this ? Well said, Manuka AOR –beyond urgent, isn’t it.

      • Manuka AOR 14.1.1

        Why are we just letting it go on? It’s a kind of insanity, imo.

        This is our LAND! This is our Nation. This is what and who we are.

        The Gallipoli Centenary is approaching and they are making much of it. Our ancestors fought there so that we could have this land. Several of mine were there and not all returned. They in turn lost sons during WW II for the same reason – that we could have a country that was ours, that was free.

        We are throwing this all away!!
        I don’t begin to comprehend it.

      • Wairua 14.1.2

        It is not just Auckland, and it is not just John Key.

        Anecdotally, there are many ‘banked’ properties reported in Sydney and Melbourne
        – see ‘www.catherinecashmore.com.au’ who has just published
        “SPECULATIVE VACANCIES 7” which I think can be downloaded from that link.

        One has to be careful due to echoes of the ‘White Australia’ policy but there is also evidence that the China boom has peaked in many markets and there are cities of unsold apartments in China itself.

        A global bubble is playing out – and given levels of unsustainable debt in some quarters most rational observers are hoping for a soft landing.

        Whether that will happen is another story, but Aotearoa is a very small player in all this.

        • Molly

          However, despite our size we can choose to go our own way.

          The end result of mass utilisation of housing as investment vehicles while at the same time divesting social and state housing – can be seen in The Great British Property Scandal series, and in this 2014 Guardian article: Scandal of Europe’s 11m empty homes

        • greywarshark

          @ Wairua
          There are reports of empty apartments that have replaced old housing which was being lived in. The new is of course too dear for the previous dwellers to rent. I remember reading about it. Also there has been much money spent on infrastructure and city building as in the empty apartments.

          It seems to me a deliberate policy to turn earnings and profits into tangible assets, as the future of the financial system is uncertain. Profits left sitting can be undermined by inflation, and deliberate crashing of the financial system which would wipe out the previous Chinese accumulated credits.

          I think the Chinese are being canny and converting the paper money into bricks and steel. Perhaps the message of the Yip Harburg song about Al the hard worker, now beggar, of the USA in Buddy Can You Spare a Dime has been received loud and clear by the Chinese. They don’t want to be the Als, with a lot of useless money. This version is probably the best you’ll hear and see and uses the word Buddy rather than Brother which seems less authentic.

          • Colonial Rawshark

            It seems to me a deliberate policy to turn earnings and profits into tangible assets, as the future of the financial system is uncertain

            Yes, but what they’ve done is turn housing into yet another speculative financial asset. Collateral which is hypothecated then rehypothecated, leveraged then overleveraged, then securitised and sold on to unsuspecting investors. Certainly an apartment block is more “concrete” than $10M of numbers in an electronic account which can be “vapourised” at a key stroke, but the way it is being treated now – like dairy farms which will soon never be able to pay back their mortagages – makes them worth little more than unaffordable McMansion junk.

            And that’s assuming all these units which have been built with nothing more than profit in mind, don’t leak.

            • greywarshark

              That’s a good point. Just thinking of the reality of leaky buildings which we found here. Leave them for a while and they can be full of deadly fungus that gets up people’s noses, literally. And nearly possible to eradicate. In apartment buildings they would have to spray individual apartments then possibly gas them as well and leave them closed for a time to penetrate and kill the organisms. Then leave them open for a week, then probably have to turn fans on as some of the gas might be heavier than air or something.

              One of the problems with rented buildings in NZ is people don’t open their windows to let fresh air in. Perhaps because of fear of burglars, or they aren’t used to the concept of airing rooms and having fresh air and sunshine coming in. Leaving the windows closed all the time leads to a build-up of mould, which is preventable if the rooms are aired daily with a flow from one side of the house to the other. I haven’t heard this mentioned when damp, unhealthy houses are mentioned, but some people have to be educated apparently as to such good and necessary practice. They should fit their own burglar and child proof attachments to one window in every room if the landlord won’t do it.

    • Paul 14.2

      We are tenants in our own country.
      And we have an international bankster facilitating the transfer of wealth to his bosses.

  15. Morrissey 15

    Some athletes have a conscience

    Sportspeople, past and present, are generally brainless, conformist halfwits—New Zealanders will be all too familiar with such unedifying and depressing examples as Israel Dagg, Corey Jane, that dopey mustachioed rower who barracked for John Key, Dick Quax, Paul Quinn… the list is too long and depressing to finish, but you get the picture.

    But there ARE genuinely thoughtful, decent people involved in sports. Here are just a few of them…..

    1.) In 2005, French goalkeeper Fabien Barthez refused to play against an Israeli team, as a protest against Israel’s depradations in the Occupied Territories….

    2.) In 2011, Irish rugby stars Trevor Hogan, Gordon D’Arcy, Eoin Reddan and John Fogarty spoke out in favour of the Gaza peace flotilla…..

    3.) Some New Zealand and Australian rugby stars from as long ago as 1960 were protesting against touring, or even playing against, South Africa.

    4.) Just last week, Wallabies star David Pocock was arrested for taking part in an anti-mining protest.

    5.) St Louis Rams players making a statement about police brutality. The only shame here is that there seem to be no white players supporting them…..

    • Puckish Rogue 15.1

      “Sportspeople, past and present, are generally brainless, conformist halfwits”

      Yeah thats not a generalization or nothing

      • CATMAN 15.1.1

        Yeah he really should have made it clear he was generalising, maybe by saying “generally” or something 🙄 🙄 🙄

        Not that you’d have noticed, it’s not like you read anything before you type 🙄 🙄 🙄

        Even though it was in the sentence you quoted 🙄 🙄 🙄

        Can we get some new trools please? This is just the same one that got banned yesterday and it’s fecking useless.

        • Puckish Rogue

          Sorry should have added massive generalization and incredibly petty and small minded judging an extremely large group of people by a very small group of drop kicks

          • vto

            I love the way sportspeople at times cry “… keep politics out of sport …” ….

            … then in the very next breath ask politicians to pay for their work premises (stadiums) …. the hypocrisy ….

            • Puckish Rogue

              I agree, I wouldn’t pay a cent towards Team NZ (as another example)

              • vto

                Yep. And how about the cries here in Chch from rich professional sports business people for elderly ratepayers to pay for a new stadium with a roof to keep their heads dry and warm when they can’t even fill the current stadium?? And when we are struggling to pay for replacement sewers and roads and libraries and swimming pools for the kids??

                Quite astounding.

                Funny though that most of those rich sports business people have realised their folly and gone quiet in embarassment. They no longer ask for the poor and elderly ratepayers to pay for their work premises.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Yes but lets not lump all sportspeople in with the people running said sports

                  • vto

                    Nothing wrong with the occasional generalisation – there is generally something in said generalisations..

                    And it aint just people running such sports (cycling types are always calling for the elderly to pay for their velodromes too) who make this call, it is too often the players and participants themselves. It is heard all the time amongst general sports talk.

                    Cricket has just been given such largesse in Chch with new Hagley Park grounds.

                    It is a classic race to the bottom – best example being the Olympics. Olympics plays off cities against one another to see who can do the best deal. End result being that all host cities end up chronically in debt with pretty much no benefit whatsoever.

                    Sport has been riding this game for a while now – be interesting to see how much longer it lasts. Personally, I think cities should call the bluff of the rugby unions, the Olympics committees, the velodrome nutters, the Americas cup bludgers, the V8 racers, and give them zip. If they don’t come then so f%$king what? Net result is a win for the cities as these events always cost – there is never a net benefit.

          • McFlock

            massive generalization and incredibly petty and small minded judging an extremely large group of people by a very small group of drop kicks

            Yeah, in the same way beneficiaries and the parents of poor children are depicted when tories claim that the parents waste any money on booze, drugs, and cigarettes.

            • Puckish Rogue

              Well sports is one of the areas where left and right wingers can and do interact

              The rugby club used to be a microcosm of NZ society (not always in a good way i grant you) where blue collar and white collar got on and discussed the importanct issues of the day (well probably not)

              Just thinking that lumping the majority of sportspeople who play for the love of the game in with the administrators of tha games (which is where the problems usually begin) is a quite short sighted

              I can’t be the only one who thinks its a great sight going past (or when i get roped in myself) touch fields filled with all kinds of people playing simply because its enjoyable

              and yes I’m wearing rose-tinted glasses

              • McFlock

                Poor parents from all sides of the political and socio-economic spectra interact at play groups.

                Lumping all beneficiaries and working poor in together is short-sighted, too.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  I’m sure they do however I have zero experience of play groups and extensive experience of sports clubs

                  • McFlock

                    Surely you must still pass them on occasion, and think it’s a great sight that parents and kids of all backgrounds can get together for the simple joy of social interaction?

            • The lost sheep

              So we are all agreed then.

              Crude generalization of what are in fact complex groupings of real people is just bigotry, and to prove the superior moral tone of the left, there will be no more of it on this blog.

              • McFlock

                The exception being when the generalisation is based on a characterisation by which the groupings are delineated – calling tories “fuckwits”, for example, is merely a description that emphasises one of the characteristics that makes a tory a tory.

                • The lost sheep

                  That kind of hypocrisy puts you on the same moral and intellectual plane as a tory fuckwit.

                  • McFlock

                    nope, I’m nothing like you.

                    • The lost sheep

                      True that.
                      For a start I have a life outside of left wing blogs.
                      And I pride myself on taking any point head on and trying to grapple with it, rather than attempting to lead the discussion up a side road every time I strike a sharp retort.
                      yup, and I see all people as genuine and real and worthy of respect, in all their endless variation of political opinion, as opposed to a simplistic division into 2 camps of saints and fuckwits…

                      But I’m probably eating up your band width here, so back to you.

                    • McFlock

                      I don’t need to trool opposing blogsites to provoke negative reactions that I can then use to pretend that my life has any level of meaning or significance in the universe and reinflate my delusional sense of adequacy. That’s all you.

                  • CATMAN

                    There’s that unfounded false equivalence we know and love.

      • Paul 15.1.2

        You really sound like c73

    • swordfish 15.2


      Good one, Morrissey. Had no idea about Barthez’s protest against Israel’s brutality back in 05. It’s pretty rare for me to praise a former Man Utd player (or, indeed, anyone or anything to do with that particular club) but good on him.

      1960 AB Tour of Apartheid South Africa. Certainly the great George Nepia protested. By the early 70s, Ken Gray and Chris Laidlaw had moved in the same direction and, of course, by 81 AB Captain Graham Mourie and Centre, Bruce Robertson.

      Incidentally, Frank Bunce (from memory) was the main (possibly only ?) Celebrity endorser for the Alliance in the 1996 (or was it 99 ?) election campaign. Starkly contrasting with the Michael Jones, Paul Quinns and Tuigamalas of this world.

      Overall, though, I think it’s reasonable to conclude that professional sportspeople do indeed tend to be as Thick as Mince.

      • Puckish Rogue 15.2.1

        Overall, though, I think it’s reasonable to conclude that sportspeople do indeed tend to be as Thick as Mince.

        – no thats quite unreasonable when you look at the number of people who play sport vs the drop kicks who bring the game into disrepute

        As an example theres a little over 145 000 registered rugby players, 140 000 approx registered Netball players NZ and around 22 000 registered league players in NZ

        • swordfish

          Yeah, I immediately edited in professional just to add a little more clarity and precision (presumably while you were in the middle of composing your reply).

          Personally, I played football (ie soccer) from age 8 to 39 (competitively on Saturday, socially on Sunday, and the Indoor variety during the week).

        • CATMAN

          Hey Paul, look how it does quotes and responses. lolz.

      • Paul 15.2.2

        And Israel Dagg…
        Didn’t he tweet for the elite on Election Day?

      • millsy 15.2.3

        “1960 AB Tour of Apartheid South Africa. Certainly the great George Nepia protested. By the early 70s, Ken Gray and Chris Laidlaw had moved in the same direction and, of course, by 81 AB Captain Graham Mourie and Centre, Bruce Robertson.”

        I have noticed that the men who you mentioned seem to have had their talents largely unutilized by the NZRFU after their careers came to an end, apart from a breif stint coaching the Hurricanes/Lions in Mourie’s case. while those that went on the 1986 rebel Cavaliers tour ended up enjoying large amounts of oppurtunities in administration and coaching long after their playing careers ended.

        Of course, it could be purely co-incidental. and talking to any administrator from around that era would come up with a truck load of denials. But it does seem fishy, that those who stood up against NZ Rugby’s contact with SA seemed to find their rugby careers curtailed.

    • Paul 15.3

      Morrissey, do you have any idea why Graham Bell is invited on the Panel?
      I don’t understand why his boorish ill educated views are sought after.

      • Morrissey 15.3.1

        Morrissey, do you have any idea why Graham Bell is invited on the Panel?

        He’s a celebrity, and he expresses himself forcefully. That works well on radio.

        I don’t understand why his boorish ill educated views are sought after.

        I agree with you that he often sounds boorish, and I have often cringed—or raged—at some of the things he has said. Today, for instance, he tried to argue that the arrest of a top cop in Northland for selling drugs showed how incorruptible the New Zealand Police are. Disappointingly, neither the host Simon Mercep nor Selwyn Manning decided to challenge him on that point. Bell also made a crazed attack on Nicky Hager; Mercep and Manning let that pass as well.

        On the other hand, Graham Bell does have an enlightened and tolerant side; he was relatively civilized and intelligent when he commented on the need to respect Maori protocols and language a few years ago.

    • BLiP 15.4

      6.) World-renowned Kiwi netball champion, Irene Van Dyk, has given her backing to the #BeCrueltyFree New Zealand campaign for a ban on cruel and outdated animal testing for cosmetics such as mascara, shampoo and anti-wrinkle cream.

      • Morrissey 15.4.1

        That’s good to hear. However, I have heard her on several occasions ranting about how dangerous South Africa is “now”, implying it wasn’t dangerous before the blacks took over. Talk to a white South African, and there’s a high probability that kind of lazy racist rhetoric will spill forth eventually.

        • Clemgeopin

          During the apartheid years, the primary violence (I think) was the institutional injustice and violence from the white government and the powerful white landowners against the blacks. Now the violence is primarily due to economic, drug, gang reasons I think. I am not sure as I am not familiar with the actual situation there apart from reading about car jackings, burglary,rapes and heaps of murders. Not sure if it is racially motivated. Is it?

          • Morrissey

            White South Africans raving about how dangerous South Africa has become in the last twenty years is racist.

            • Clemgeopin

              I am not sure if it is that simplistic. She may be meaning the reality, the common violence (not the apartheid violence) on the streets now which ‘probably’ did not exist previously. I do not know. Would be interesting to hear factual views of the situation there now of any South African readers. It is difficult for people to express honest views if they are then defined/characterised/judged by others as being racist.

        • Paul

          I always ask a South African when they left the country.
          Many seemed happy to stay under apartheid, but left when the whites lost political ascendancy.
          Of course, as Naomi Klein and others have highlighted, the white establishment maintained its economic stranglehold over the country.

        • Te Reo Putake

          Sounds like you’re bullshitting again, moz. But as you’ve heard these rants many times, you’ll have no problem backing up your claim, eh.

          • Morrissey

            Sounds like you’re bullshitting again, moz.

            Okay, have it your way. In Te Ao Te Reo, white South African “exiles” never reflexively parrot racist tropes, just as your good self has never reflexively parroted black propaganda—-that means lies, by the way, not propaganda by black people—-against journalists and truth-tellers.

            But as you’ve heard these rants many times, you’ll have no problem backing up your claim, eh.

            I heard her interviewed several times by Murray (AKA “Deaks”, AKA “The Screaming Skull”, AKA The Most Dismal Sports Commentator Ever) Deaker and she almost always talked about how dangerous South Africa had become.

            • Te Reo Putake

              As I say, back it up. I’m sure a quick search will find copies of those interviews. Otherwise you are just attributing to an individual a trope you believe applies to all white South Africans. That’s kinda like racism, eh?

              btw, I have a good friend who is in his mid fifties and who left SA a few years ago and who says the place is definitely more dangerous post apartheid. Is he racist, too? He’ll be surprised to hear it, being the lovely, liberal and man that he is.

              As an aside, while SA is still astonishingly dangerous, the violent crime rate is actually dropping. Not by enough, but dropping all the same. I have a sneaking suspicion that it always was violent, but prior to the democratic changes only crimes against the dominant community were recorded in any detail, making the joint seem a lot safer than it really was.

              • Morrissey

                I have a good friend who is in his mid fifties and who left SA a few years ago and who says the place is definitely more dangerous post apartheid.

                He certainly sounds it. Decades ago The Specials had some spot-on advice for people like you….

                • Te Reo Putake

                  I’ll be sure to let him know you think he’s a racist, Moz. As someone with a south Asian family heritage and classified as ‘Indian’ under apartheid, he knows a thing or two about the matter.

                  • Morrissey

                    Some of the stupidest, most racist comments you’ll hear in this country are made by the likes of Willy Jackson, Tau Henare and Winston Peters. They should know a thing or two about racism as well, but it doesn’t stop them saying the most incendiary things.

                    So if your friend is saying that South Africa becoming a democratic state is a bad thing, then his ethnicity should not immunize him against criticism, surely?

      • Clemgeopin 15.4.2

        Great to hear. All those are Labour party policies as you can see below and in the link:

        Care for animals

        * Banning cruel shark finning
        * No cosmetics sold in New Zealand tested on animals
        * No synthetic highs tested on animals
        * Protecting Animals’ Rights

        See more info here:

  16. (questiontime in parliament today..)


    (shudder..!..collins is in shot..and at first she pastes on that grimace pretending to be a smile she uses..but then she falls into repose..

    ..and i gotta say..it’s a grim screenshot..that one…

    ..one to make babies cry/dogs howl..and plants to wilt..)


  17. Paul 17

    Selwyn Manning on the Panel.

    • Paul 17.1

      Already putting the spokesperson for the Hospitality industry under pressure.
      Simon Mercep doing the Panel a lot better than Mora by simply letting the Panel talk.

  18. Murray Rawshark 18

    Spying under Labour gives a hint at why they’re happy to vote for extended powers:


    • Anne 18.1

      Jesus Murray Rawshark, I wished I had seen that Scoop article in November 2005.

      Be assured the surveillance of ordinary NZers has been occurring on and off for decades, and it didn’t just apply to Maori activists. Neither was it just the SIS. The police were also up to their eyeballs in clandestine political surveillance.

      I still don’t know whether it was the SIS or the police who targeted me in the late 70s/80s and early 90s. Some of the incidents were witnessed by others and a former boss of mine was known to be a SIS informant. With the benefit of hindsight I have long since realised that… as a public servant who was also active in the Labour Party, I was a sitting target. There was also a political associate (a woman) who went to extraordinary lengths to befriend me and who – years later – I discovered had been ‘informing’ on me.

      I spent years trying to get to the bottom of it all, but came up against a brick wall every time. But along the way, I learnt a lot about the NZ establishment and how it sometimes operated. Not a pretty sight!

      Edit: I don’t believe successive Labour leaders – up to and possibly including Helen Clark – had any knowledge of these particular spying activities. It would have been going on behind their backs.

      • greywarshark 18.1.1

        @ Anne
        Who would have been driving the surveillance? Who would have benefited from it and what was the cultural imperative for it?

        • Anne

          Who would have been driving the surveillance?

          Back in the 1960s/70s and at least part of the 80s, I think it was, in the main, a police unit of right wing thugs – the sort who find themselves with a bit of power and it goes to their heads. We’ve seen quite a few public instances of their conduct over the years, the most prominent being police brutality during the Springbok tour protests in the mid 1970s and early 80s. However there have been many documented examples of politicians and ordinary individuals having also been targeted for highly spurious reasons – the most famous being Colin Moyle.

          Who would have benefited from it?

          The various National governments of the day starting with Keith Holyoake followed by Marshall and eventually Muldoon – especially Muldoon.

          What was the cultural imperative for it?

          In a nut-shell it was obsessive Cold War paranoia on the part of Western establishments around the world. NZ was not immune from the condition. It meant that anyone to the left of Genghis Khan (slight exaggeration) was suspected of being a Communist subversive. There is no question the police (and no doubt the SIS) had infiltrators inside the Labour Party and that probably included the particular electorate to which I was attached. I was far from the only Labour activist who reported strange ‘going ons’ throughout that time. In my case there was an added consideration (too complex to explain here) that meant I was targeted – and my father before me – in an even more insidious way.

          It still occurs of course but in more subtle ways. I think lprent’s niece, Rocky is a good example in more recent times.

          • Murray Rawshark

            There was a poaka intelligence unit set up in the late 70s to keep an eye on potential threats. I met a couple of them who worked openly, but there were plenty who worked secretly as well. They targeted groups including outlaw biker clubs, Mongrel Mob and Black Power, Polynesian youth groups, and hippies on Coromandel communes, that I know of.

      • Murray Rawshark 18.1.2

        If they know that the squirrels do stuff behind their backs and still vote them extra powers, I consider that even worse.

  19. b waghorn 19

    Article in stuff buy simon day about dirty politics effect on public health .

  20. Weepus beard 20


    Didn’t John, Bronagh, and Max Key just meet this guy, and give him Buck Shelford’s jersey?

    John Key must be very impressed by Xi Ping’s ability to shut down dissenting media.

  21. joe90 21

    Former Guantanamo chief prosecutor writes about torture.

    The bigger question will be what now? The U.S. led the effort to enact the Convention Against Torture (CAT), a treaty that has been ratified by nearly every country in the world, including the United States. When President Ronald Reagan sent the CAT to the Senate for ratification in 1988 he said it clearly expressed “United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice,” and noted that it “required (a signatory) either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.” The CAT also requires us to provide alleged victims of torture a legal avenue to pursue compensation.


  22. les 22

    Do Colin Craig and the Conservatives hibernate until election year.He actually had some sound policy to deal with rampant property prices.

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