Open Mike 05/02/2019

150 comments on “Open Mike 05/02/2019 ”

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1. Sacha 1

   5 February 2019 at 7:37 am

   On ‘diversity’ .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We0sqgHAZKI
   • Paaparakauta 1.1

     5 February 2019 at 10:01 am

     Paul Mason on “Britain’s Impossible Futures” at Le Monde Diplomatique
     https://mondediplo.com/2019/02/01brexit
     • Sacha 1.1.1

       5 February 2019 at 10:22 am

       Bit confused. Can you please explain how you see that as being relevant to the clip I posted?
       • Paaparakauta 1.1.1.1

         5 February 2019 at 11:34 am

         Diversity. See

         https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/04/deportation-flights-jamaica-government-windrush-scandal

         on Teresa now resuming deportation flights to Jamaica – consistent with how she first made her UK political reputation in deporting Carribbeans who had arrived on a ship called ‘Windrush’.
         • Sacha 1.1.1.1.1

           5 February 2019 at 11:37 am

           Did you watch the clip or just see I had used the word?
           • Paaparakauta 1.1.1.1.1.1

             5 February 2019 at 12:12 pm

             I empathised with your theme of diversity.
             • Sacha …

               5 February 2019 at 6:57 pm

               The clip may unlock it differently for you.
     • CHCoff 1.1.2

       5 February 2019 at 12:20 pm

       Brexit’s gonna be a process of unintended consequences due to problems with internal ruling class structures (which is what it was an expression of in part) i’m guessing.
2. Muttonbird 2

   5 February 2019 at 7:38 am

   Dirty Politics from the dirty party:

   He called National’s justice spokesman Mark Mitchell “unprincipled and opportunistic” for speaking out for the estranged wife.

   Never a truer word said about the member for Rodney.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12198076

   New Zealand First MP and Cabinet Minister Tracey Martin says she personally witnessed a National Party MP instructing online “trolls” to attack a political opponent.

   Interesting they went straight to Paula Bennett for comment. 😆

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12200803
   • Kat 2.1

     5 February 2019 at 7:42 am

     Those “online trolls” were probably just the National MP’s caucus colleagues.
   • Cinny 2.2

     5 February 2019 at 9:49 am

     Standby….. nat trolls will now be actively trying to discredit the Tracey Martin via social media, because that’s how they roll when people speak the truth.
     • Jimmy 2.2.1

       6 February 2019 at 10:49 am

       Tracey Martin discredits herself…..wasn’t it her that forgot linkedin didnt exist several years ago, and also appointing someone “independent” to the Wally Haumana investigation that had endorsed the person.
       I think Tracey Martin is NZ First’s Clare Curran.
       If this story was from a Labour MP it would be more credible (except maybe Kelvin Davis).
   • Shadrach 2.3

     5 February 2019 at 10:00 am

     I wonder why you didn’t print this from the Martin in the same piece:

     “It won’t be a shock to anybody that it’s a political tool. I wouldn’t be surprised if Labour runs similar groups of people.”
     • lprent 2.3.1

       5 February 2019 at 9:50 pm

       I wouldn’t be surprised if Labour runs similar groups of people.

       The short answer is that there aren’t. I’ve been looking for them for more than a decade. Every time I think I see a left group, it turns out that they have just had a split and several aren’t talking to each other. Think of The Daily Blog for an example of the usual behaviour.

       I’ve come to conclusion that while there are a lot of lefties with some weird opinions, they are also extremely and usually excessively individualistic. Trying to get them to work closely together is an interesting exercise, and what you see here is about as good as it gets. However the better ones are pretty good at cooperating together so long as everyone else is aware that they’re just sort of heading in a similar direction.

       Strikingly, and outright strangely for this dedicated iconoclastic loner, I think that I’m actually one of the more cooperative ones and one who actively works with a lot of people for work through to this.. And I’m used to regarded as a weird loner in every other part of my long life.

       On the other hand, there are obvious groups of rightie trolls. They do tend to operate like a flock of carnivorous sheep. Their belief systems are weird as they all seem to believe the same crap as a group and keep repeating the same stupid ideas as a statement of fact regardless of contradictory evidence. Few seem to be able to think for themselves and they seem to require a pile of self-reinforcement from their flock

       But on the net they are fierce warriors – right up until they are effectively challenged with facts. Then they huddle together and bleep how everyone is against them and that they need protection and every one should be polite to them. Think of Cameron Slater and his bunch of ‘warriors’ over the years. Or that bunch of no-hopers in the sewer section at
       Kiwiblog.

       In my ‘generalised’ opinion, many righties seem to lack a personal backbone and cling to what they know like it is a comforter and troll as a pack. While most lefties tend to be extreme individualists whose biggest problem is that they all think differently and each thinks that their own particular opinions are the very best.
       • Shadrach 2.3.1.1

         6 February 2019 at 12:40 am

         Fair comments. I was simply trying to provide some wider context to the quoted comments, although I did find it interesting that Tracey Martin would put that thought out there.
         • lprent 2.3.1.1.1

           6 February 2019 at 1:25 am

           She tries to be ‘balanced’. It is the political nature of a centre party and their politicians.

           But basically she doesn’t know. Not exactly the most network or computer literate person or even politician based on her online presence.

           I think that this site is the nearest thing (outside of the politicians) to a coordinated left group on the local net, and we’re a very loose co-operative with each author expressing their very distinct opinions. And there have been over 80 authors over the ~10.5 years.
   • Anne 2.4

     5 February 2019 at 10:15 am

     From second link:

     I wouldn’t be surprised if Labour runs similar groups of people.

     Tracey Martin is totally wrong there. I suspect she was trying to appear non biased either way.

     Labour encourages supporters to write letters to the newspapers and no doubt to talk about Labour’s policies online and respond to misinformation being presented as fact. What self respecting political party doesn’t including NZ First.

     But no way does Labour set up groups of trained trolls (and we know the Nats do it from Hager’s “Dirty Politics”) to maliciously sabotage the efforts of opposition MPs? The odd individual may have been guilty in the past but it is not in Labour’s DNA to behave in such a lowbrow way.

     We’ve seen the ploy here on many occasions although not so much in recent times. I recall last year submitting a reasonably innocuous comment about something or another and a small army of trolls descended on me and tore me to pieces. The word had apparently gone out. Plenty of others have had the same experience over the years.
     • McFlock 2.4.1

       5 February 2019 at 12:27 pm

       I tend to agree – having one or two “ends justify the means” jerks in a party is unavoidable, but having them on the payroll is.

       Besides, who on the left has the money to waste?
       • lprent 2.4.1.1

         5 February 2019 at 9:51 pm

         Or the time..
   • Grantoc 2.5

     5 February 2019 at 2:50 pm

     Seems like Martin used a similar tactic in 2011. Dirty politics I’d say on her part
     • Anne 2.5.1

       5 February 2019 at 7:54 pm

       Would you care to elaborate or link to something? Tracey Martin is a straight talker and I like her a lot because of it. But she’s wrong to assume that Labour indulges in the kind of “dirty politics” we’ve witnessed from National over the years.
     • Cinny 2.5.2

       5 February 2019 at 9:06 pm

       Grantoc, In this instance I doubt that kiwiblog would be a credible source. JS

       Discredit and distract……. and little david is trying hard to do that today looking at his blog.
3. cleangreen 3

   5 February 2019 at 7:49 am

   Aussie Banks are damned in new reports coming from a Australian Royal investigation just released;

   Question; Are NZ bank workers along with their bosses now in line to receive criminal charges? TSB has shown us solid support over many years so should be except here are the reasons.

   I applied for a Kiwi bank account as a retired 68yr old homeowner in 2010 and we were refused, as my husband is disabled, and did honestly declare this on our application to Kiwi bank.

   We complained as clients who were ‘completely clear of any bad credit history at all’ and the Kiwi bank Manager was acting unreasonable on the phone to us, and afterwards sent us a scathing letter effectively saying our profile as a client was not welcomed????

   We never missed a mortgage payment with our previews accounts with two other banks.

   We had an account at ANZ and TSB, so we were so shocked as my husband is disabled we only are concerned that disabled people are singled our for being denied for being clients with banks, and this is a breach of our human rights.

   We are still with TSB. They are so far the best bank we have ever found.

   NZ Banks need to be investigated as insurance companies are being now, and while we are at that issue of insurance companies wrong doings in NZ me and my husband had a life insurance policy with a insurance company in NZ since 1884 and when we become 68 our insurer cut our life insurance policy off after they doubled the premium and then cut off our account, so we lost our life insurance through extortion policies it seems as they were threatening to substantial raise our premium cost monthly at where no one on a pension could have afforded the cost.

   Yes insurance and banks are apparently corrupt privateers.

   Now the local councils around the country are telling us all they need to sell our assets such as Port airports and other “essential services” so all of us are in for yet more rorting of our money as privatising our assets will only bring the same greed policy we have witnessed in banking and insurance companies just to keep profits for “shareholders happy folks!!!

   So we are doomed in this ‘corporate greed culture’ we have apparently embraced.

   Just remember; – “What goes around comes around”
   • Tuppence Shrewsbury 3.1

     5 February 2019 at 8:11 am

     What were you applying for at kiwi bank? A chequing account or were you applying for some type of loan?
   • Jimmy 3.2

     5 February 2019 at 8:32 am

     That’s very disappointing to hear. We were with ASB and ANZ and switched all our banking to Kiwi Bank several years ago when we bought a house. We have found them very good.
   • Kevin 3.3

     5 February 2019 at 8:33 am

     KiwiBank are no different to the big 4.
     • greywarshark 3.3.1

       5 February 2019 at 9:14 am

       Kevin
       Don’t diss Kiwibank – it is NZ owned not Australian. Definitely different from the big 4. And it has always had to fight to live against the asset strippers who have run NZ who were quite happy to have Australia make money from creating money to lend to us and take the profit which means they make the profit not us.
       Get with it please.
       • Kevin 3.3.1.1

         5 February 2019 at 9:26 am

         It maybe NZ owned, but that is all.

         They operate exactly the same way despite the advertising. If your circumstances change and you fall outside the box, they are just the same bunch or arseholes as BNZ, ANZ etc.
         • greywarshark 3.3.1.1.1

           5 February 2019 at 9:54 am

           Kiwibank has to compete with the others, and can’t be too different. But they have kept going despite National and ACT (Actively Conning the Trusting), dissing them. I hope you are not a right-leaning person, it is a struggle to keep NZ alive and kicking despite the knockers. They earn money for NZ despite their corporate tendencies.

           Also to note is TSB – completely NZ operation, and SBS (was Southland Building Society) which is NZ enterprise but uses Westpac as ‘clearing bank’, I think it is called.
           • Gosman 3.3.1.1.1.1

             5 February 2019 at 10:23 am

             They pay millions each year to foreign suppliers of their core banking infrastructure.
           • Kevin 3.3.1.1.1.2

             5 February 2019 at 11:29 am

             I was a Foundation Customer, something I was very proud of, and joined on day one. I have my mortgage with them and have always supported them.

             Around three years ago I had a drop in income for six months (had to go on a four day week) and they went from being ‘best friends’ to absolute cunts in the blink of an eye.

             When my mortgage comes up for renewal this year, I am out of there. Will go to Co-op or SBS.
             • greywarshark …

               5 February 2019 at 11:41 am

               I am not with Kiwibank Kevin. An initial test was that they charged $30? for a bounced cheque. At my previous bank I had paid in a cheque for about $30 for a payment to me, had it bounced and charged the same amount. So I was $60 out of pocket instead of $30 which being hard up made me sore. So when I saw what I thought of as ‘the people’s bank’ charged the same impost I took this as a sign that the reality was less than the expected.

               I thought from the beginning that Kiwibank was ‘pretty conservative’ in their approach. But they are NZ and had to set up and stand up to opposition and sneering and doubts about their ability with small capital to be effective from such as ‘Yellow(turn)coat Hide’ and so they deserve some authentic accolades.

               I am with SBS and have found them more than pretty good and TSB interested in helping small business.
               • Sacha …

                 5 February 2019 at 11:50 am

                 Kiwibank succeeded immediately in stopping all the Aussie banks charging really high set fees just for the privilege of having an account with them. Anderton deserved to feel proud about that.
             • marty mars …

               5 February 2019 at 11:42 am

               NBS is awesome.
             • James …

               5 February 2019 at 12:27 pm

               Banks get like that when debt to income ratios drop.
             • patricia bremner …

               5 February 2019 at 7:42 pm

               Cooperative Bank NZ is really customer orientated. You will find it very easy to change. If you have a mortgage and your’e aged 65 + no fees.
           • Rapunzel 3.3.1.1.1.3

             5 February 2019 at 5:39 pm

             It is nothing less than what the government is having to contend with with sectors on NZ pulling every which way for things to be returned to “normal” and coping with the extra demands regardless of the rhetoric the National Party left in its wake.
             Some of those striking all of a sudden for pay deals that were denied them have been appeased but their is long list of people with demands.
             Those demands, they should finally recognise, will never be met for most of NZ if a National Party government is ever let near the seats of power for quite some time.
             National played divide and rule and they do it every day still with support from a lot of media while all the time swallowing a dead rat and telling the country that Simon Bridges is a “leader” in any sense of the term. Frankly if that is their best they deserve to moulder for a long, long time that that is what it has come to.
           • patricia bremner 3.3.1.1.1.4

             6 February 2019 at 9:25 am

             We had a hiccup some years back, went into Cooperative Bank NZ Branch here in Rotorua. After a stroke and early retirement we discussed our changed circumstances. They made several suggestions, and went the extra mile to help us implement a new budget that included rearranged payments on two things. We were given a 3 month break, the changed payment plan, and we got on top again as my health improved. This Bank is rated BBB which some would shun, but I have been with them since 1973. Norm was with Westpac. Their suggestion, ” You could sell up.” Needless to say he joined me at my bank!!. In Banks I am parochial.
             • greywarshark …

               6 February 2019 at 9:47 am

               Patricia B
               Anecdotes like yours are very telling; proof of the pudding etc. As you say the grading BBB is interesting- based on what? Most of us will remember that right up to the GFC back a decade, the ratings agencies amongst them Standards & Poor’s (great name eh) were issuing gradings indicating the banks were AOkay to trade, and suddenly they weren’t. So what are gradings looking at?

               On google:
               Standard & Poor’s | Americas
               https://www.standardandpoors.com/
               In 28 countries around the world and a history that dates back more than 150 years, S&P Global Ratings provides high-quality market intelligence in the form of …
               • Kevin …

                 7 February 2019 at 8:13 am

                 Ratings schmatings.

                 At the GFC hearings they admitted the ratings were ‘just their opinion’ and bore no resemblance to reality.
     • cleangreen 3.3.2

       5 February 2019 at 9:15 am

       Yes Kevin;

       Kiwibank was ruined under National ‘Key ism.’

       Now it is seeded with corporate maggots now.

       Jacinda needs to overhaul this bank we own?

       She needs to deal firmly with the rorting insurance companies too!!!!!

       I note that in Tuppence Shrewsbury’s fishing response he/she never showed concerns about out corrupt insurance companies,

       Question is; – Does he/she (TS) work for that industry?
       • Gosman 3.3.2.1

         5 February 2019 at 10:22 am

         What specific policy did National implement in relation to Kiwibank that lead to it being ” seeded with corporate maggots “?

         Personally I think you have little actual understandings of the workings of Kiwibank and are just spouting your unsubstantiated biased opinion.
       • Tuppence Shrewsbury 3.3.2.2

         5 February 2019 at 12:41 pm

         I notice you smear me and avoid my question.

         I don’t work in insurance, but I understand it and can comprehend policy wording. It’s not that difficult.

         Were you opening a chequing account or seeking a loan? It makes a big difference if you are slagging a kiwi owned bank off and your accusation needs context
   • James 3.4

     5 February 2019 at 12:26 pm

     If you were applying for a loan – then looking at the profile you just gave – I’m not shocked you were turned down.

     68 years old – single income (I assume from above)

     Hardly the best risk profile.
     • Tuppence Shrewsbury 3.4.1

       5 February 2019 at 5:39 pm

       But don’t you know he never missed a mortgage payment?

       Which is the not the same as having security to allow a new one.

       Pretty stupid rant really. Kiwi bank is consistently rated pretty high in customer satisfaction surveys, behind tsb but a long way ahead of ANZ. They also help keep NZ rural infrastructure in the form of post shops alive.

       But if it ain’t rail, ol single issue nutter clean green ain’t interested
4. marty mars 4

   5 February 2019 at 7:57 am

   Yes we need to do this

   As the nation counts down to New Zealand’s national day, calls are mounting for the Treaty of Waitangi to be a compulsory part of the school curriculum.

   The Post Primary Teachers’ Association is calling for the Treaty to be a compulsory part of the curriculum.

   Currently it’s optional, with schools deciding whether or not to teach it.

   https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/growing-calls-treaty-waitangi-compulsory-part-school-curriculum?variant=tb_v_1

   and shame

   She wasn’t the only person at the highest level of Government to struggle with the question, Greens co-leader James Shaw admitting: “I actually don’t know the articles”.

   really? You are the co leader of a political party in power and you don’t know the articles contained within our founding document? ffs

   Here let Gareth enlighten you – thanks Gareth.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwWzcU51DB8&feature=youtu.be
   • solkta 4.1

     5 February 2019 at 8:08 am

     Ardern was the OTHER “person at the highest level of Government” who couldn’t answer the question. Why single out Shaw when the PM and couldn’t answer the question either?

     Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern today stumbled when asked by 1 NEWS what Article One of the Treaty says.

     “Oh, Article One? On the spot?” Ms Ardern replied.

     “Kawanatanga, sorry, excuse me,” she added when helped by ministers standing nearby.
     • marty mars 4.1.1

       5 February 2019 at 8:13 am

       So this is all okay with you?
       • solkta 4.1.1.1

         5 February 2019 at 8:17 am

         Did i say that?
         • marty mars 4.1.1.1.1

           5 February 2019 at 8:24 am

           No you said why did I pick on him and not Jacinda. I suppose I was just surprised and disappointed really in James and the Greens.

           It seemed we were going off on a tangent to my point which is why I asked if you are okay with this situation.

           I hope the Greens walk the walk not just talk the talk.
           • solkta 4.1.1.1.1.1

             5 February 2019 at 9:08 am

             I was also disappointed that Shaw could not answer that question i just didn’t think it was fair to not mention Ardern. Both should have been able to say.

             I think though that not being able to immediately recall which article is which does not mean that they don’t understand the concepts involved.

             As to my opinion on Treaty and Land Wars education being compulsory i have stated that many times here – I think it should be considered essential.
             • marty mars …

               5 February 2019 at 9:13 am

               I think we are in agreement.

               There are 3 articles and they aren’t that difficult – maybe the leaders should do some swot before this time next year
               • Sacha …

                 5 February 2019 at 10:24 am

                 We can bet Jacinda will have been hunched over the books last night, which seems tardy for such a fundamental topic.
               • greywarshark …

                 5 February 2019 at 12:56 pm

                 marty mars
                 I think you are a bit light on looking at understanding the Treaty. It is a bit difficult because of the application of the principle of it being a living document. So we start off with the three principles, then what meanings have been attributed to them. And what additional effects does each point have in certain circumstances and times and what interpretations have been made in current times.

                 So it could be a lively session as youngsters asked questions and discussed their views of the rights and wrongs. And even though they ended up not agreeing, they would understand more than the limited set of pre-judgments that they have embedded in their minds. Many adults have no understanding of the general principles of our law, and how being a law-based country is both restraining and freeing. There is little time in secondary and even primary I guess, spent on thinking about paradoxes and how we deal with them in culture and society, and how context makes its way into our thinking.
                 • marty mars …

                   5 February 2019 at 1:10 pm

                   “I think you are a bit light on looking at understanding the Treaty.”

                   Probably. I was just touching very lightly on a specific area rather than going into it too deep. I have done some university papers around the treaty – I recommend it as well as chatting to tangata whenua at your local marae.
                   • greywarshark …

                     5 February 2019 at 1:44 pm

                     And Yes – think about going to the local marae TOMORROW 6 February Waitangi Day – it is the 6th of February all over the country not just at Waitangi!

                     Don’t let the overseas visitors have all the fun rapping and eating at the marae. Meet and eat with the local tangata whenua. Get there early and take part in the welcoming powhiri and hear what your Maori neighbours have to say about their special place. There will probably be some music, some singing, some kapa haka that has been practised and performed for everyone’s enjoyment and praise.

                     Take some money to buy food and you might see some interesting pendant or creative artwork. Embrace our nation’s biculturality, and there might be some multi-culture going on there too.
                   • marty mars …

                     5 February 2019 at 1:55 pm

                     Great events at Te Āwhina Marae in Motueka and Whakatū Marae in Nelson.

                     I hope you enjoy our day.
     • Anne 4.1.2

       5 February 2019 at 11:24 am

       Yes, the word “stumble” was used by the MSM except she didn’t stumble at all.

       When faced with the question (which was designed to faze her) she openly said she had to think about it (or words to that effect) and them someone prompted her and immediately she recalled… and came up with the answer. A split second hesitation while she thought about it is NOT a stumble. A deliberately calculated wrong impression given in my opinion.
       • Jum 4.1.2.1

         5 February 2019 at 12:10 pm

         Thank you Anne for once again proving the bias against Ardern by MSM.
         • James 4.1.2.1.1

           5 February 2019 at 12:29 pm

           With her own rose coloured specs bias for Jacinda.

           Proves nothing.
           • patricia bremner 4.1.2.1.1.1

             5 February 2019 at 8:01 pm

             For Goodness sake. Are you serious”” How many times did PM Key say, I am not wearing that hat, I don’t have that available, etc.
             PM Ardern pauses and is prompted and it is a crime??
             You appear desperate…. Like MSM, trying to discombobulate!!
             • In Vino …

               5 February 2019 at 10:54 pm

               Spot on, Patricia – dead true.
       • Jimmy 4.1.2.2

         5 February 2019 at 12:58 pm

         I thought Willie Jackson gave her the answer?
     • Puckish Rogue 4.1.3

       5 February 2019 at 2:20 pm

       Well to be fair she also didn’t know what GDP meant either so at least shes consistant 😉
       • Jum 4.1.3.1

         5 February 2019 at 8:40 pm

         puckish rogue

         Oh yes, GDP, where the greedy get to control or own all the finite and priceless resources by pretending they have no value.

         And fucking learn to spell while you’re at it.
         • Puckish Rogue 4.1.3.1.1

           5 February 2019 at 9:04 pm

           While 😉
           • Jum 4.1.3.1.1.1

             6 February 2019 at 1:25 pm

             consistant at Dumbtionary.com. Consistent is the correct spelling for the word that you entered (consistant). This is based on commonly misspelled words.
             consistant at Dumbtionary.com
             http://www.dumbtionary.com/word/consistant.shtml

             https://dumbtionary.wordpress.com/

             And if it wasn’t so damned hot, I wouldn’t have sworn at you! But for being so clever, I’m glad I did.
   • Chris T 4.2

     5 February 2019 at 9:04 am

     Admittedly it was fairly low to start with, but my personal respecto-meter for Morgan just went up for the bloke after watching that.
     • marty mars 4.2.1

       5 February 2019 at 9:09 am

       Yep he did a good job with that vid and explanation.
       • Sacha 4.2.1.1

         5 February 2019 at 10:17 am

         Yes. The advantage of doing your homework. 🙂

         I do wish more people would get that after its signing, Māori are part of both parties to the Treaty agreement including those represented by the Crown. Hence two bites at the cherry in some instances. And overwhelmingly generous in settlements as Morgan notes.
       • solkta 4.2.1.2

         5 February 2019 at 10:26 am

         So do you agree with him that Maori ceded sovereignty? He doesn’t make sense on that as he says that the Tribunal is right to say that Ngapuhi did not cede sovereignty but then tries to argue that because they have accepted court rulings they have given up sovereignty so they did cede it in article one. Part of the build up to the Northern War was Ngapuhi chiefs not accepting the ruling of the courts. Just because they later accepted rulings because they had no choice does not mean they ceded it in the Treaty but rather that it was taken by force.
         • marty mars 4.2.1.2.1

           5 February 2019 at 11:01 am

           No I don’t agree. He’s good on the pithy explanation for those who don’t know but there is a lot more to know. I support tino rangatiratanga 100%
   • solkta 4.3

     5 February 2019 at 10:12 am

     I really respect Morgan for trying to get educated in this area but his perspective is still simplistic. He starts by saying that the Treaty was signed by “two societies”. This is nonsense. The Treaty was singed by the British Crown and Iwi. What Morgan says is akin to saying that the EU is a treaty signed by Britain and Europe. At the time of the Treaty the word”Maori” just meant “ordinary person”. It was not a political or social structure.

     He then goes on to argue that “Maori” own the water because they own everything that they have not sold to the Crown. But Hapu are mana whenua. Hapu own the resources. But if hapu owned the water what water did they own? Did they own the clouds above? Was it theirs when it fell on their whenua? When it flowed in their awa? Did it become the next hapu’s water when the awa crossed a territorial boundary? Could one hapu have built a dam and deprived the next of the water?

     If it is the water falling on or passing through a whenua dictates ownership then shouldn’t this ownership right transfer when the land is sold? If that is the case then the Crown also owns water.

     More importantly did Maori consider, and do they now consider, water as something that could or should be ‘owned’? Under English common law nobody owns water. This seems to me as a very sound principle. Morgan comes from the perspective of a capitalist economist. He seeks to determine the ownership of assets rather than enter into a complex philosophical discussion on disparate perspectives. Maori have specific interests in and rights to water while Pakeha have general rights. A reductionist capitalist asset allocation will not cut the mustard.

     ps

     That gringo should show more care with the lingo: “tay-ray-owe”
     • Sacha 4.3.1

       5 February 2019 at 10:27 am

       “At the time of the Treaty the word ”Maori” just meant “ordinary person”. It was not a political or social structure.”

       Then why would the English have negotiated and sought signatures from iwi and hapu chiefs?

       And in Te Ao Maori, water owns people who are charged with protecting it. The concept is of guardianship, not ownership.
       • solkta 4.3.1.1

         5 February 2019 at 10:35 am

         Then why would the English have negotiated and sought signatures from iwi and hapu chiefs?

         I don’t understand your question. Iwi and Hapu chiefs not Maori chiefs.
         • Sacha 4.3.1.1.1

           5 February 2019 at 10:38 am

           Those are political and social structures. They have been called ‘Māori’ as an umbrella term for the other party to the Treaty. What was your point?
     • marty mars 4.3.2

       5 February 2019 at 11:05 am

       Wow sounds like you have some great questions for tangata whenua tomorrow at the waitangi day ceremony, event and marae that you may be going to – let us know what they say.
       • solkta 4.3.2.1

         5 February 2019 at 12:28 pm

         I’ll be taking the kid to Waitangi for the day tomorrow but i’m going to try really hard to keep away from politics and spend the time with her absorbing the vibe.
         • marty mars 4.3.2.1.1

           5 February 2019 at 1:15 pm

           Nice – wish I was up there too. I work tonight so my start to the day is later. Kia kaha – I really enjoy your comments and thinking.
   • joe90 4.4

     5 February 2019 at 11:58 am

     Not too sure myself but off the bat –

     Right to govern ceded to the Queen.

     Land rights guaranteed.

     Citizenship of the empire granted to all.

     How did I do?
     • marty mars 4.4.1

       5 February 2019 at 1:17 pm

       A +
   • McFlock 4.5

     5 February 2019 at 12:54 pm

     I agree it should be part of the core curriculum, and I’m a bit surprised that it’s not.

     But I think knowing the vibe of it is more important, even for representatives, than remembering the order or precise contents of the Articles for spot quizzes.
     • marty mars 4.5.1

       5 February 2019 at 1:27 pm

       True.

       I suspect because it is not uppermost in the majority of citizens minds they don’t think about it much. Pity it isn’t engraved, like the Second Amendment of the United States Constitution in the gun nut minds, into our consciousness.
       • McFlock 4.5.1.1

         5 February 2019 at 1:34 pm

         The gun nuts usually forget the bit about a well regulated militia, though 😉
         • marty mars 4.5.1.1.1

           5 February 2019 at 1:39 pm

           Yeah the analogy is weak. If people care they remember imo
           • McFlock 4.5.1.1.1.1

             5 February 2019 at 2:40 pm

             Depending on the situation of whether they’re asked, and sometimes the value is in remembering that it’s there rather than the exact particulars.

             It’s the sort of thing where if I sat down somewhere quiet and thought for a few minutes, I’d probably do better than if I had to answer it on my feet out of the blue.
             • marty mars …

               5 February 2019 at 2:49 pm

               True.

               I think we can do better. Compulsory treaty learning seems the way to go.

               Funny – how many remember the 3 ships Columbus used to get over the ditch before he ravaged the new lands. A lot I’d say yet hardly relevant to us here.
5. WeTheBleeple 5

   5 February 2019 at 8:16 am

   Interesting conversation with a Dairy owner yesterday. He has a dozen double glass door fridges, pie warmers, freezers, none of them his. Companies pay for the fridges, pay for and are prompt with maintenance, and: …. dictate what is allowed in their appliances.

   It’s monopoly by stealth. You stock the fridge, you don’t stock the competitors products.

   That’s why so many dairies have the same rubbish wall to wall. That’s why local pie makers and drink makers are pushing shit uphill before they get started.

   Coke is the largest culprit, V is not far behind whoever owns them. Big Ben pies, fuck your horrible nasty products I can’t buy a decent pie because of your crap, and Irvines is similarly rubbish in a pastry wrap.

   No wonder we’re in so much trouble. We spend our waking hours devising ways to fuck everyone else over so we can sell rubbish in place of food.

   Business.
   • Jimmy 5.1

     5 February 2019 at 8:38 am

     Yep that’s big business for you. Putting yourself in the dairy owners shoes, of course you would take the offer of free freezers etc. as it saves him thousands on buying and maintaining them himself.
     But as you say, the flip side is the consumer has less choice of brands to choose from.
     And I agree with you ….its hard to get a decent pie these days…..try finding a bakery some of them are good.
   • DJ Ward 5.2

     5 February 2019 at 8:44 am

     I’m guessing this is a resultant of the owner not having the capital to purchase there own fridge, and the reality of the income generated for them by the fridge as part of there business.
     I’ve seen it in industry like 3D printing where the industrial scale versions have systems that control the materials used. They become hostage to the inflated price at say $600 kg when generic material is available at about $50 kg. Eventually competition provides machines allowing generic material and the extorting companies are abandoned.
     Same as the fridge. The owner gets the capital to by there own fridge and can stock products without the extortionary use of the fridge providers products. It could be the business owner is happy with the arrangement and puts available capital spend elsewhere.

     If you don’t like what they are selling don’t buy it. Want a nice pie go to a Bakery.
   • mac1 5.3

     5 February 2019 at 8:57 am

     A similar situation exists with pubs where the taps etc are supplied by a brewery and the competitors’ products are banned.

     Here’s an excerpt from a February 2017 Herald article.
     “….. despite increasing consumption, there’s a mystifying lack of outlets showcasing the diversity of New Zealand’s brewing ecosystem.

     “Most pubs and bars in New Zealand have ‘tied taps’, meaning that they are under contract to sell a limited range of beers owned by the brewery.”

     Very evident on a road triStap in the southern South Island. Mind you, that’s when I go to pubs for meals and accommodation. At home there are two popular untied pubs, with excellent food as well as beer. One highlights Japanese food, the other German style.

     There seems to be a link between quality of product sold and the commercial nature of the publican’s business arrangements. The untied seem to enjoy a different focus more on quality as well as variety.
   • WeTheBleeple 5.4

     5 February 2019 at 10:07 am

     The benefits to a small business are great. But it is still big money using big money to control small business, via either exclusion or contracted collusion.

     I’m sure it’s all legal. That’s how they do if possible…

     Yeah true about pubs aye. Two pubs per town. A Lion pub and a DB pub. And from region to region you couldn’t tell what you were walking into by brand of pub. In the Waikato the Bikers drank at Lion pubs, in Taranaki, DB… You never knew what was in the parcel from the packet. As a wee teen it paid to be careful. You could drink underage the length and breadth of the country but it was still an adults world.

     A kid thumbing the road might seek solace from the sun. Might accidentally strut his mohawk hairdo into a Lion Pub on the outskirts of the Waikato, to find a Mongrel Mob bar full of patch members, he might order a shot instead of the beer he wanted, he might then down it and walk back out all cool like, but in a timely manner!

     😀
6. greywarshark 6

   5 February 2019 at 9:09 am

   Interesting.
   https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2018680874/laura-watts-orkney-s-sustainability-revolution

   …the idea that remote rural communities are [slow?] allow on the uptake is demonstrably untrue in Orkney.
   “Actually it is the opposite, when things are small-scale it means you know who to pick up the phone to make things happen, you’re fleet of foot.”

   Orkney is now energy rich to the extent that it created a problem for its electricity grid.

   “Having 120 percent energy generating is a serious problem, because it loads electricity on to the grid and when you start loading too much electricity on to cables they tend to blow fuses or melt – literally.”

   Showing a knack for problem solving, the Islanders decided to generate hydrogen with the surplus power it was making, which it could then store or sell.

   “Hydrogen fuel is one way that you can store electricity off the grid and bring it back on when you need it.
   The islanders decided to take the surplus energy to run an electrolyser which splits sea water into hydrogen and oxygen.

   The electrolyser sits on one of the Orkney islands called Edie, which has 180 residents.

   “What’s going on in Orkney is neither a dystopian future where they’ve given up, nor is it a utopian future where they’ve said somebody else or technology will save the day.
   “It’s not some renewable energy nirvana that’s going on, it’s a challenging place, part of what’s happening is because there are high levels of fuel poverty and there are still too many people in Orkney on fuel poverty all the initiatives are very much driven by how do we make the energy cheaper.”

   Can we say the results and outcomes in NZ show that we have ‘a knack for problem solving’?

   
   environment
   3 Feb 2019
   Laura Watts: Orkney’s sustainability revolution
   From Sunday Morning, 8:38 am on 3 February 2019
   Orkney used to be a study in how to use energy unsustainably. The archipelago off the northern tip of Scotland bought and imported all its power from coal and gas plants on the Scottish mainland.
   These days it generates more electricity than it needs via a host of wind turbines and through capturing tidal energy

   Author Laura Watts has studied the sustainable energy revolution taking place on the far-flung islands, she tells Jim Mora that innovation often occurs at the edge of things.

   Maybe the interview on Radionz this morning would be pertinent to this matter – about nz coastal rips.
   9:20 Predicting rips
   University of Canterbury Coastal Geomorphologist Dr Seb Pitman is developing a way of mapping rip tides on Muriwai beach. He explains to Kathryn Ryan how GPS “drifters” could predict rips and make sea swimming safer.
   • cleangreen 6.1

     5 February 2019 at 9:27 am

     Well said greywarshark;

     My wife comes from ‘Herne Bay’ along the river Thames in UK.

     At the coastal area of the English Thames river mouth where it meets the English channel we saw they install ‘Beakwaters’ after the horrific storm ruined her town of Hearne Bay in the 1950’s..

     They have enormous ‘rip tides’ from the ‘north sea’ and calmed their areas of those coastal regions and river mouth waterways.

     We saw these coastal regions being calmed by placing ‘ breakwaters’ along many tidal prone areas.
     • greywarshark 6.1.1

       5 February 2019 at 9:48 am

       I guess those breakwaters could harness energy that could be used etc…..
7. Cinny 7

   5 February 2019 at 9:40 am

   More countries are choosing sides, re Venezuela.

   European nations including France, Spain, Germany, Britain, Portugal, Sweden, Denmark, Austria and the Netherlands are supporting the leader of the opposition.

   With everything going on and the population just wanting someone, anyone to save them from impending starvation as a result of economic collapse;, how much do people really know about Juan Guaido?

   Interestingly enough Guaido made his claim as interim President the day after a call with Mike Pence.

   Where there is oil, you can almost guarantee the USA is involved.

   The Listening Post….. article is the first one up, approx 11 mins long.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYpxcFsPDD8
   • Gabby 7.1

     5 February 2019 at 10:40 am

     If he could nationalise oil, why not rice?
     • Cinny 7.1.1

       5 February 2019 at 11:10 am

       Love your work Gabby 🙂
   • Dennis Frank 7.2

     5 February 2019 at 8:25 pm

     Guaido “is a Venezuelan engineer and politician serving as the President of the National Assembly of Venezuela since 5 January 2019. A member of the centrist social-democratic Popular Will party, he also serves as a federal deputy to the National Assembly, representing the state of Vargas. On 23 January 2019, Guaidó took a public oath to serve as interim President of Venezuela. The inauguration of Nicolás Maduro as President of Venezuela earlier that month was contested and the National Assembly considered the position vacant; under the Constitution of Venezuela, if the office of President of the Republic becomes vacant, the President of the National Assembly may serve as interim president until elections can be held.”
     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Guaid%C3%B3

     If people keep avoiding the fact that his assumption of the office was authorised by the Venezuelan Constitution, someone has to keep reminding them of reality. Could get tedious, eh? Those who would rather believe the neocon plot theory, or the lone-wolf competing with the dictator theory, ought perhaps to reassess the merit of such hallucinations.

     “Part of a large family, and of modest origins, Guaidó was raised in a middle-class home by his parents, Wilmer and Norka. His father was an airline pilot and his mother, a teacher. One grandfather was a sergeant of the Venezuelan National Guard while another grandfather was a captain in the Venezuelan Navy.
     Guaidó lived through the 1999 Vargas tragedy which left his family temporarily homeless; he lost friends and his school. The tragedy, according to his colleagues, influenced his political views after the then-new government of Hugo Chávez allegedly provided ineffective response to the disaster. He said, “I saw that if I wanted a better future for my country I had to roll up my sleeves and give my life to public service.”

     Those seeking to demonise a young man who wants to provide his country with a positive alternative have an onus on them to present evidence that he is actually a demon. None have yet. Occam’s razor implies we ought to take him at face value unless we get good reason not to.
     • In Vino 7.2.1

       5 February 2019 at 11:10 pm

       For balance, I suggest people read Chris Trotter’s article on The Daily Blog, as well as Gordon Campbell’s @ Werewolf.
       • In Vino 7.2.1.1

         5 February 2019 at 11:20 pm

         Correction – only Chris trotter’s article.
8. greywarshark 8

   5 February 2019 at 9:47 am

   https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/te-manu-korihi/381749/history-teachers-decry-shameful-ignorance-of-colonial-maori-history
   Now i have heard it all! Kelvin Davis and Chris Hipkins not willing to jump in and say yes our own history should be compulsory subjects. The affirmative is an obvious approach on the basis that ‘if we don’t know where we have come from, we can’t understand where and how we are going’.

   We are lost in a sea of misinformation and withdrawal from truth and our achievements and also our fallacies and flaws under this privatisation approach that says no compulsion, no regulation and leaves our lives and commitment to our country to people who flap in the wind of commercial interests.

   Thank god for Maori drive to know their history, and show capabilities, for instance in building a waka and sailing it to Raratonga. A visual symbol of greatness. How can we make the country great again, when we don’t know our past greatness in the first place?

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/northland/8699257/Waka-make-historic-trip
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_Busby
   https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/top/381724/waitangi-roars-into-life-as-hekenukumai-busby-becomes-sir-hek
   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/maori/news/article.cfm?c_id=252&objectid=12063372
   https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/kupe-voyaging-by-the-stars-1993
   https://www.maoritelevision.com/news/regional/native-affairs-summer-series–dying-art-waka-building
   • Gabby 8.1

     5 February 2019 at 10:39 am

     They wouldn’t want people to find out there was a party for working people long time age greysy.
     • greywarshark 8.1.1

       5 February 2019 at 11:16 am

       Long time ago – it must seem so to many – the ones born after 1984 and after the advent of the computerisation generation ‘CGs”.
       Makes me think of Don McLean – ‘long time ago’ and ‘the day the music died’ from Bye Bye American Pie.

       https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/don-mclean-american-pie-live-day-music-died-786825/

       (https://chicago.suntimes.com/entertainment/american-pie-not-about-buddy-holly-singer-don-mclean-says-60-years-later/
       “Buddy Holly’s death is what I used to try to write the biggest possible song I could write about America. And not a ‘This Land Is Your Land’ or ‘America, the Beautiful” or something like that. I wanted to write a song that was completely brand new in its perspective.”

       He added: “(It was) this idea of being a rock ‘n’ roll dream, or a fantasy, of some sort. But it’s a dream where things morph into other things.”

       “The day the music died” initially refers to the plane crash, McLean said, but takes on “so many things” as the song progresses through six verses.

       “The music is the poetry of life, it’s the spirit of something,” McLean said. “It’s the essence of art. It’s so many things. So, as the song develops after each verse, that music has died, you see? So I realize at a metaphor it was perfect for what I was thinking.”

       Many of us are thinking that now.
   • marty mars 8.2

     5 February 2019 at 11:20 am

     + 1 yep – until we know the past our foundation will continue to be weak and the society we have built on it a fragile, tottering lie. Proof? Suicide stats and all the rest of the indicators even down to our filthy water in our rivers and beaches.
9. Gosman 9

   5 February 2019 at 12:08 pm

   If you want to see a car crash interview watch this one with Ken Livingstone on Venezuela.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUG2gZGTSmU&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3rFoN0lyzNIGw5GEbgM-8T9oO3msP9vKizC6MqKy23J8yVA8UJnWg3M6I

   Best Line – ” I know the economy has been damaged by sanctions because the Venezuelan ambassador told me”

   LOL!
10. joe90 10

    5 February 2019 at 12:16 pm

    Stealing children from their parents and placing them with the right families looks like child trafficking and smells like child trafficking.

    The tRump regime is a child trafficking cartel

    The Trump administration says it would require extraordinary effort to reunite what may be thousands of migrant children who have been separated from their parents and, even if it could, the children would likely be emotionally harmed.

    Jonathan White, who leads the Health and Human Services Department’s efforts to reunite migrant children with their parents, said removing children from “sponsor” homes to rejoin their parents “would present grave child welfare concerns.” He said the government should focus on reuniting children currently in its custody, not those who have already been released to sponsors.

    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-trump-administration-family-separations-20190202-story.html
    • McFlock 10.1

      5 February 2019 at 1:07 pm

      And not one motherfucker will see jailtime over it.
    • Sabine 10.2

      5 February 2019 at 2:39 pm

      but they are good christian families ……………and these are little catholic heathen children that should be lucky to be so lucky.

      what they are saying is we don’t know where the children are, and we can’t possibly get them back, and we don’t know where the parents are…and besides its business, really good business for the ones that run the internment camps for babies, toddlers to teenagers, for the adoption businesses (the christian ones DeVos comes up again and again), and besides the US will need an underclass in twenty years as much as they need their underclass now. After all how can all the white people feel superior if they are no others left to be superior too?

      Everything that i was afraid would happen before the election came true. And so many so many many many could not give a flying fuck, cause he is not beholden to money, he will drain the swamp, he will not start world war three, he is not corrupt, he is this and he is that, and he is all i ever wanted him to be, despite the fact that the man in his whole life has shown nothing but contempt for everyone and everything, has bankrupted everything he laid his hands on, has lusted after his daughter publicly, and to boot has surrounded himself with the worst that the US has to offer in supporters and enablers.

      Every single Trump supporter, water carrier, should be ashamed. Simply that. Nothing more nothing left. Just shame, and pity for children who will never be really whole again.
11. JohnSelway 11

    5 February 2019 at 12:31 pm

    I read both the standard and kiwiblog because I find them both on the same pegging. The Standard is generally quite centre left and Kiwiblog quite centre right. I avoid whale oil and the daily blog because Slater and Bomber share the same traits – just on different sides of the fence.

    My politics are much aligned with the standard but occasionally kiwiblog does something worth considering and this post I thought was very good:

    https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2019/02/pm_fell_for_the_quiz_trick.html
    • Enough is Enough 11.1

      5 February 2019 at 12:41 pm

      I agree.

      Jacinda should have told the idiot reporter that she wasn’t playing those games
    • Shadrach 11.2

      5 February 2019 at 1:28 pm

      Yep. Totally stupid question, and a good response by Farrar.
    • joe90 11.3

      5 February 2019 at 2:55 pm

      My politics are much aligned with the standard but occasionally kiwiblog does something worth considering and this post I thought was very good:

      Arse.

      It was a red meat cue for his commenters to insult, exercise their bigotry and vent their vile, misogynist bile .
    • Dennis Frank 11.4

      5 February 2019 at 8:38 pm

      It played to the assumption that politicians ought to know what they’re talking about. Why should they? Representatives elected to represent most people are selected because most see them as an accurate match. So the aggregate effect, as per statistics, locates them atop the bell curve, centred on the exact median intelligence of the populace. How many kiwis could tell you the correct answer? Way less than 1%! Unreasonable to expect politicians to be less ignorant than the average voter…
      • Tuppence Shrewsbury 11.4.1

        6 February 2019 at 10:48 am

        I despair for your reasoning that those in charge of leading our nation should not be more intelligent than the average voter.
        • Dennis Frank 11.4.1.1

          6 February 2019 at 11:28 am

          I wasn’t thrilled by the realisation when it first occurred to me years ago. But it stands to reason, eh? Identity politics, people identify most with the one they tick at the ballot box. Lowest-common-denominator design of democracy ensures that mediocrity is produced as output.

          That’s why I started advocating meritocracy as a positive alternative. We can use codesign to evolve it as an alternative political system. Not to replace democracy, but to complement it.
12. greywarshark 12

    5 February 2019 at 1:17 pm

    Another death resulting from easy-peasy attitudes. A Korean man with family and little English holidaying here. Sandboarding down slope. Part of a group on one bus. A second bus pulls into the area where he will slide to a stop. He goes under the bus while his family watches. Why can’t tourist companies work together and help keep their precious trusting customers safe? Cosset them FGS.

    Just run through some what-ifs and be ahead of the problems that will crop up.
    Health and Safety are OTT often but you can see their necessity when there are so many cowboys running companies, or with employees that haven’t had the job and methods properly explained to them. How do companies feel about their employees suffering at having been involved in this sort of thing. The sadness and the nightmares, and the shakes? Everyone suffers. We need to do better.

    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/381779/korean-tourist-s-sandboarding-death-preventable-police
    • ianmac 12.1

      5 February 2019 at 3:04 pm

      The beach is classed as a road so road rules apply. Who is responsible for a “pedestrian stepping out onto the “road?”
      • greywarshark 12.1.1

        5 February 2019 at 3:51 pm

        Ah. Well the first thing to consider is that both buses are in the tourism business and so it is wise to not go running down each other’s clients. Not good for business.

        Then the next is that there is always an over riding rule about driving in that the speed and manner should be suitable for the conditions. Though I imagine that a driver would not expect a pedestrian to come shooting down a dune beside which he is driving, at a great rate of knots, so his shock and surprise can be understood. So we come back to due care and attention in driving into an area with super-speed people on toboggans shooting around the place.

        And then consider a need for caution in looking after people from a different country, not speaking English, and who expect a modicum of expertise and care in a supposedly sane, civilised country. They put their trust in us and find it wanting because we are wanting in the head, just a little, but she’ll be right!

        After just reading a bit of Bertie Wooster I may have imbibed a bit of PG Wodehouses style I’m afraid. But still I think I have covered your points ianmac.
13. Gosman 13

    5 February 2019 at 1:20 pm

    If anyone thinks the State owning businesses is a desirable goal Venezuela should give you pause for thought.

    “Even so, De Freitas said the initial findings paint a picture of an oversized state hemorrhaging money — at a time when the country desperately needs it. The organization found that 70 percent of the 511 companies have produced losses in 2016 totaling 1.29 trillion bolivares — or about $129 billion dollars. That amount is 14 percent higher than what the government earmarked for education, health, housing, and social security that same year.”

    https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/venezuela/article138402248.html
    • Exkiwiforces 13.1

      5 February 2019 at 2:38 pm

      Ok mate, then what about SOE’s in the Western style Gulf States and in Singapore along with Singapore’s State run Super?

      We also have the Nordic Nations SOE’s (Norway, Denmark, Sweden and Finland) and their State run Super schemes?

      Would you care to explain why they are going gangbusters? Which are in your warp mind of the free market Neo- Con/ Lib BS shouldn’t be State Own or State Run. I don’t why you keep craping on about some tin pot country in Latin America? Because I really don’t give a shit about as there are important issues in the SP Region and NZ that need addressing than a bunch of muppets with their fingers in that country’s coffers.
      • Gosman 13.1.1

        5 February 2019 at 3:13 pm

        A State run investment scheme is not the same as a State Owned Enterprise.
        • Exkiwiforces 13.1.1.1

          5 February 2019 at 3:32 pm

          So what you are saying that all those countries mentioned should disinvest from their SOE’s that are making a return/ profit for their taxpayers and the State disinvest from them as they distorted the so- call free market in your little warped mind of your Neo- Lib/Con BS. Even though they protect the economic wealth of those mentioned countries over the longer term, unlike little old NZ which flogged off almost all of its SOE’s and as a result has gone backwards compared to those countries over the longer term.
          • Gosman 13.1.1.1.1

            5 February 2019 at 4:13 pm

            From you logic it seems in your warped little mind the State should only divest from assets when they make a loss. While I don’t care when the State divests themselves of such assets your option will mean far less return than if they were sold if they were profitable.
            • Exkiwiforces 13.1.1.1.1.1

              5 February 2019 at 4:51 pm

              No Sir, having read your posts over the years. Is that you lot believe that all Governments should disinvest from all Government SOE’s and leave it to the market to sort out?

              Unlike those countries that I mentioned, they have use those profits to be invest back into to those SOE’s or into a Sovereign Wealth Fund for a rainy day or in a couple cases they have use the interest payments to reduce government tax income in which they still maintain a higher standard of living across the with well funded Government Departments such as Health, Education etc.

              In the case the of NZ, you lot flogged everything off, lower taxes to the upper echelons of society, screw the workers employment rights and WHS aka Pike River Coal Mine along with wrecking every Government Department though lack of funding and making them run as business. As you lot have said the market is always right and private industry is better than Government.

              Well these countries that I have mentioned compared to your tin pot country from South America that you keep crapping on about, must be doing something wrong then?

              Btw I have none time in Singers and in a couple of the Western Style Gulf States and met a few the ministers along the way. They can’t get their head around the stupidity of the Neo Con/Lib economic theory that you lot brought in from the mid 80’s to the present. Us Expat Kiwi’s BS unlike you sir or your dumb ass backers/ oil snake salesman of the Neo Con/ Lib economic theory.

              The Vikings, Arabs, and the jokers from Singers aren’t the stupid ones here, lovely boy! But you Mr Magoo and your Neo Con/ Lib Mates who are after a quick buck for the race to the bottom of the nearest pissaphone or thunderbox are the stupid ones here.
              • Gabby …

                5 February 2019 at 5:33 pm

                Not to mention filling the public service with incompetent status obsessed funknuts from the private sector management sump.
                • Exkiwiforces …

                  5 February 2019 at 6:08 pm

                  You mean, SMEFA Subject Matter of Fuck All or LARToBOP Lazy And Ripping Taxpayers off By Over Pricing.

                  Or this one from the UK as they are now the sole provider of HM Combat Ships, BAES Big And Expensive Ships.
                  • Exkiwiforces …

                    5 February 2019 at 6:37 pm

                    Or this one which I forgot to mention, when a private contractorscomes round saying they have fixed the problem and when they really haven’t. ISBACSICRT’O I Should Be A Contractor So I Can Rip Taxpayers Off.
            • McFlock 13.1.1.1.1.2

              5 February 2019 at 4:53 pm

              Which is still less return than if they weren’t sold at all.
              • Gosman …

                5 February 2019 at 5:27 pm

                You assume they make money if they remain in State hands. The example of Venezuela (and many other countries) suggests they don’t.
                • McFlock …

                  5 February 2019 at 5:29 pm

                  xkf has mentioned other examples that suggest they do.

                  Hell, we sold profitable SOEs because… foolishness.
        • Gabby 13.1.1.2

          5 February 2019 at 4:50 pm

          State run is state run El Gozzerino.
    • Stuart Munro 13.2

      5 February 2019 at 4:33 pm

      Yeah – but then we have all the local evidence of privatisations, which shows unequivocally that the private sector generally only contributes corruption. Service standards fall, promises made to secure the assets (Max Bradford’s “prices will fall”) prove to be lies, cost of living rises and the state is deprived of income for social spending. That evidence, the applicable evidence, shows incontrovertibly that privatization is essentially fraud in drag as business, and no NZ citizen should support it for a moment – in fact we ought to press our politicians to reverse the rorts that have fallen short of the promises made to justify looting the public estate.

      Go and tell it to the Venezuelans, I’m sure they know more about what works and doesn’t in their own country than any far-right foreigner.
14. marty mars 14

    5 February 2019 at 2:23 pm

    Happy Chinese New Year. We are now in the year of the pig – gonna be a good one especially for those turning 60. Doesn’t bode well for some lol

    “Unlucky things
    Colors: blue, green”

    dang it back to the drawing board gnat big brains.
    • joe90 14.1

      5 February 2019 at 2:35 pm

      I’m a Horse so all good.
    • Prickles 14.2

      5 February 2019 at 3:59 pm

      If anyone is interested in knowing more about Chinese Astrology, here is the forecast for the year from Lillian Bridges who lives in the US but learned from her Chinese grandmother. Very well respected author, speaker and teacher.
      https://flowermountain.org/year-of-the-pig?fbclid=IwAR35x9_jRwK0_HP1mZO_RN_YXWDj7ff52mA8jilFbVWAFFls1GE5xpcgON0
      • Gabby 14.2.1

        5 February 2019 at 4:53 pm

        I’m sure it’s not at all a giant load of codswallop.
        • marty mars 14.2.1.1

          5 February 2019 at 5:55 pm

          yay NOW the year can begin…
15. Observer Tokoroa 15

    5 February 2019 at 5:07 pm

    Maintenance of the Treaty

    The British people Raided, Stole, Enslaved, Slaughtered numerous peoples under Queen Elizabeth 1, 1553 – 1603.

    The British raided 90 different Nations from Elizabeth’s time up unitl very recently.. If you look at the school map of “British Empire” you will see the extent of its Rape.

    When it Raided and Stole New Zealand, it took Maori Children, Women and Men to War. By Gun. That was in 1840. It handed the the reluctant Maori people a defective Treaty.

    The Bastard Thieving Brits have never apologised. They never do.

    Supporting the Maori is expensive. The Bill is largely paid by the low wage workers Pakeha and Maori.

    To ease the situation for Maori and the low paid workers (pakeha and Maori) I believe that a levy should be paid by the excessively wealthy New Zealanders and their Share Holders. Their Tax Rorts included.

    The burden thrown on NZ by the British Crown needs attention. It needs it now.

    Lets do it.
    • Bazza64 15.1

      5 February 2019 at 5:54 pm

      There was war between Maori tribes before Europeans arrived in NZ. Was there ever apology between tribes after these battles ? Just wonder as maybe it was only passed down with oral history ?
      • Gabby 15.1.1

        6 February 2019 at 9:12 am

        There must have been or that Te Rauparaha haka wouldn’t be so widely used would it. Be a bit of a slap at the descendants of his victims.
16. Morrissey 16

    5 February 2019 at 5:51 pm

    Josie Butler banned, but Brash and Tamaki are okay?!?!?!?!?
    What the F*&K is going on in this country?
    Checkpoint, RNZ National, Tuesday 5 February 2019. 5:38 p.m.

    Josie Butler should have been given a medal for throwing a dildo at that dickhead Steven Joyce in 2016. Instead, she’s been banned from the Treaty grounds, while a vicious racist (Don Brash) and a rabble-rousing thug (Brian Tamaki) are allowed free access.

    This is a disgraceful affair, instigated by some disgusting chump at Police HQ, and featuring the usual dispiriting cast of sad lickspittles and minor officials. Most contemptible of the lot of them is one Peter Paraone, who apparently was a New Zealand First List M.P. for some years. If he was, no one noticed him.

    This afternoon, Paraone finally did something to force himself on the public’s attention. He nodded his head and said “Yes boss.”

    LISA OWEN: So you banned her because the Police requested you to ban her?

    PETER PARAONE: Uh, yes.

    LISA OWEN: Why?

    ….Long silence….

    PETER PARAONE: Uh, I’m not familiar with the detail….
    • Bazza64 16.1

      5 February 2019 at 6:12 pm

      I think people who throw things should be banned. Appalling behaviour to treat anyone that way. If we want people to turn up to Waitangi then they at least need to feel safe.
    • Sacha 16.2

      5 February 2019 at 7:11 pm

      Law professor Andrew Geddis is not amused: https://twitter.com/acgeddis/status/1092645672979853313

      OK – I’m calling it – based on @CheckpointRNZ’s report the decision to trespass Josie Butler from Waitangi’s Treaty Grounds (initiated by the NZ Police) was flat out unlawful … done purely because what she had done, not any reasonable concern about current behaviour.
17. Observer Tokoroa 17

    5 February 2019 at 6:59 pm

    Hi Bazza64

    I could agree with you that there are major inequalities between various parts of New Zealand currently. Also major variations in incomes.

    Wealthy New Zealanders however, are not at all interested in paying realistic wages to their staff.

    You may have heard that no low wage Worker can afford to Buy a home in New Zealand. Not can they afford Rental accommodation without skinflint assistance.

    I hope you avoid Poverty Bazza64.
    • Bazza64 17.1

      5 February 2019 at 7:29 pm

      I’m not in poverty & agree housing costs have turned totally unrealistic, not just for low wages earners. I think the statement about wealthy NZers not interested in paying realistic wages may not be accurate – not sure where you get this from ? Most NZ businesses are small & while I agree that employees should be paid more, I know quite a few small businesses whose owners work long hours & their hourly rate isn’t flash either.
      • Observer Tokoroa 17.1.1

        6 February 2019 at 12:28 pm

        To: Bazza64

        Your pertinent words:
        “I know quite a few small businesses whose owners work long hours & their hourly rate isn’t flash either”.

        The rise and rise of big Business is the destruction of small Business.

        The huge resources of big Business have been allowed to all but obliterate the former opportunities of individuals and families in our Country. Thanks to our appalling politicians.

        The money Big Business makes in NZ, is shipped out to its owners in Australia, Korea, China, Saudi Arabia. And god knows where else. Further adding to the poverty of individuals and families in NZ.

        The only solution I can see is to Levy the very wealthy sector of Business and the Wealthy (and their Share Holders) so that Financial Equity returns to New Zealanders.

        So that the Banks operating here should return at least 1 Billions of $dollars Per Annam. And so on to all the Businesses of great wealth.

        All that our Parliament has done since the rise of National is denude the wealth of Aotearoa. This must be turned around. And Quickly.
        • Bazza64 17.1.1.1

          6 February 2019 at 1:38 pm

          You’re totally correct re big business – the worst thing is companies like Apple, Google etc make money here, but seem to pay very little tax. There was an outcry about this several months ago, but I haven’t heard anything more since then, hopefully government will update the tax rules to stop this happening.
18. mary_a 18

    5 February 2019 at 8:59 pm

    It’s great to read details surrounding Te Tiriti O Waitangi being discussed and debated in Open Mike today. Hopefully a healthy discussion will continue tomorrow, 6 February.
19. Jenny - How to get there? 19

    5 February 2019 at 10:38 pm

    We should do this for every person the Australian Government tries to deport to New Zealand.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2G4Q0_hNhU

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