Open mike 05/02/2025

114 comments on “Open mike 05/02/2025 ”

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1. Tony Veitch 1

   5 February 2025 at 6:13 am

   Following gsays (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-02-2025/) appeal for ideas the left might campaign on in the 2025 (!!) election (when Winnie pulls the plug), how about electoral reform?

   Such as:

   *. limiting party donations to a once only per calendar year, low maximum per person/organisation

   *. state funding of all political parties, based on their paid membership (not donations) and kicking in during the election campaign period.

   * an Iwi upper house, with the task of assessing/approving or rejecting all lower house legislation (giving true meaning to the idea of ‘partnership.’).

   *. a lower threshold for representation in parliament.

   The aim should be to take Big money out of our election equation – make it a contest of ideas, not wallets!
   • Dennis Frank 1.1

     5 February 2025 at 7:34 am

     Seems sensible so I'll quibble…

     State funding means taxpayer funding and most people won't want to pay for such a bunnch of hopeless losers. I suspect they will be dead keen to pay to have them eliminated though.

     Iwi upper house would mean preserving Maori hierarchy, which is as antiquated and irrelevant as the western patriarchy. We need intelligent decision-making instead. That's why I sent in a submission almost a decade ago to parliament, when they asked for advice on how to operate better: revive the upper house to do consensus decision-making. It eliminates tribalism by design.
     • Incognito 1.1.1

       5 February 2025 at 8:51 am

       Most readers won’t want to read a bunnch [sic] of comments by a hopeless shitposter. I suspect they will be dead keen to have them eliminated though.

       Take your morning dumps somewhere else and stop shitting on ideas from and for the Left.
       • Bearded Git 1.1.1.1

         5 February 2025 at 9:45 am

         I see Dennis's name and scroll down as fast as possible.
         • Westykev 1.1.1.1.1

           5 February 2025 at 9:56 am

           I do the same with your comments
           • Incognito 1.1.1.1.1.1

             5 February 2025 at 10:48 am

             You win because BG’s comments are a lot pointier than DF’s drowning pools of metaphysical drool and astrology/numerology mambo-jambo.
             • SPC …

               5 February 2025 at 11:02 am

               Have you and karmapolice shared moderating notes?

               "Karma Police" is a song by the English rock band Radiohead, released on 25 August 1997, as the second single from their third studio album, OK Computer (1997).

               Karmapolice was an English moderator on an American MSN blog Free Speech America (no astrology/numerology was his rule).
               • lprent …

                 5 February 2025 at 12:43 pm

                 Offhand I can't think of when Dennis Frank last got moderated. I had to look it up for bans and notes. I know that it happens… These instances were noted

                 https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-08-12-2024/#comment-2019120
                 https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-15-11-2024/#comment-2017239
                 https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-02-2024/#comment-1988027
                 https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-01-02-2024/#comment-1987690

                 I did like this moderator plea about Dennis's propensity to try to hog the first few comments in OpenMike

                 If I had the skill (and WP rights), I’d write a script to add a few hours to all his comments submitted before 10 am and let them appear in the front end at those later times.

                 Ummm… I have other things to code. But I do have a suitable graphic for early morning hoggers, and I have had to do that manually in the past for that pattern of behaviour. It’d be easy to do. Just look at the frequency of recent comments in OM of the first few comments, then hold the release for a calculated number of minutes that increases as the frequency increase.

                 But moderators are pretty clear that they rule on behaviour, not principles. All of the reasons in last years moderation were behaviour.
                 • Dennis Frank …

                   5 February 2025 at 2:21 pm

                   moderators are pretty clear that they rule on behaviour, not principles

                   Which makes moderation arbitrary, seemingly unprincipled. However users must accept the norms of any group they participate in.

                   I've explained my common interests with leftists often enough over the past decade here but my motivation is basically a duty of care.

                   I believe left-wing politics succeeds on a basis of altruism, commons ethos, inclusion, progressive activities, and a clever timely response to what happens in our changing world. I try to help with that.
                   • Incognito …

                     12 February 2025 at 2:54 pm

                     You’ve been around here for a long time and you’re a stubbornly slow learner. So, here’s my response.

                     Which makes moderation arbitrary, seemingly unprincipled.

                     The main purpose of moderation on TS is to facilitate, guide, and assist with genuine robust conversation. This is based on the site’s About and Policy plus the informative and educational body of history of formal and informal moderation here since its inception.

                     All commenters are encouraged to self-moderate and ask when things are not clear in this regard. The TS commentariat self-moderates and self-corrects, as in any peer group.

                     However users must accept the norms of any group they participate in.

                     What does this mean? You clearly don’t accept them because you ignore formal Mod notes and informal replies to you with clear-enough hints (e.g. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-05-02-2025/#comment-2023786) and you continue commenting in your set ways.

                     Moderation is not binary but a scale of educating & informing to warning to banning. For commenters who don’t take heed their commenting privileges are taken away temporarily for educational purposes. When they come back, they can choose to change their behaviour or not, as it were.

                     Mods are aware of intrinsic bias and subjectivity, which means they avoid active moderation as much as is feasible through a watch & wait hands-off approach – they’re volunteers who donate their time and don’t like the extra workload and mental burden of moderating.

                     I've explained my common interests with leftists often enough over the past decade here but my motivation is basically a duty of care.

                     It’s good when commenters explain where they’re coming from but this doesn’t excuse poor behaviour here. All commenters have a duty of care here, which is to contribute and add value to genuine robust debate. Of course, not all contributions are of the highest quality all the time but as long as this doesn’t interfere with the flow of the conversations then all is okay.

                     It is clear that you don’t regard yourself as a leftist, which is not a problem here, as we welcome diversity of opinions, especially those that are well-argued and supported with evidence; the better the arguments and the better the evidence, the more valuable the opinions for robust debate here.

                     Your duty of care includes listening to other commenters and engaging with them clearly and honestly. However, you often fail in this. For example, when asked to explain you resort to ranting about “aesthetic choices” in your framing and language and other gibberish with counter-intuitive reasoning that it “[d]oesn't mean anyone else necessarily gets my intended meaning” (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-02-2025/#comment-2023699).

                     This is a political blog site, not a site for sound poetry or abstract surreal art-forms where the reader has to guess what the creator may wish to convey if anything.

                     You also fail in your duty of care with your recidivist behaviour of sniping with snide & snarky comments aimed at leftist politicians & parties and leftist academic intellectuals without any other substance in your comment (e.g. https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-02-2025/#comment-2023205). It is lazy arrogant behaviour that adds nothing, sets a bad tone, and creates a negative vibe.

                     I believe left-wing politics succeeds on a basis of altruism, commons ethos, inclusion, progressive activities, and a clever timely response to what happens in our changing world. I try to help with that.

                     This begs the question why you set yourself apart from leftists, but we all have our ways to reconcile our inner incongruences and plaster over conflicts & contradictions – you give off strong libertarian vibes.

                     If you genuinely want to help then you may want to change your behaviour here and lift your game. As it stands, you tend to rub quite a few commenters the wrong way and regularly irritate Mods. One would assume that this extends to the TS readership more general. Start with yourself before helping others.
               • Incognito …

                 5 February 2025 at 6:31 pm

                 It wasn’t a moderating note, and I was expressing an opinion on DF’s style & content and hinting at the over-use of Sudoku on LSD for discourse and analysis on a political blog.

                 I’m at a loss why this has been misconstrued.
                 • SPC …

                   5 February 2025 at 9:42 pm

                   No need to be, I was simply "triggered" by the channeling of phrases once used by a moderator two decades ago.
                   • Incognito …

                     5 February 2025 at 9:49 pm

                     I have to admit that it was a funny association that made me smile.

                     My reply was light-humoured therefore.
           • Bearded Git 1.1.1.1.1.2

             5 February 2025 at 11:06 am

             
         • Chris76 1.1.1.1.2

           5 February 2025 at 10:35 am

           
   • Michael Scott 1.2

     5 February 2025 at 8:04 am

     Tony I don't like the idea of your third point- an Iwi Upper House that could reject Lower House legislation.

     Do you propose that the Iwi members be elected or appointed?

     The Maori Party have announced a new non negotiable policy of appointing a Parliamentary Commissioner for Te Tiriti O Waitangi.

     The Commissioner in this new role could over rule any legislation passed by the elected members of government.

     We seem to be moving away from democracy. I wonder whether Labour and the Greens will get behind it. Will the Kingitanga and the more conservative Iwi Chairs support it?
     • gsays 1.2.1

       5 February 2025 at 9:38 am

       Your concern for democracy slipping appears to be limited to when Maori are involved.

       If it were a genuine concern for democracy I would have thought yr conscience would have been pricked by the inappropriate appointment of Prebble to the Waitangi Tribunal.

       Or ECAN in recent history

       "… after the release of the "Creech Report" the government chose to appoint a panel of commissioners to replace the elected Councillors, as described above…"

       https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environment_Canterbury#:~:text=On%203%20May%202024%2C%20Cr,council%2Dprovided%20car%20since%20January.
       • Michael Scott 1.2.1.1

         5 February 2025 at 9:57 am

         My concern has got nothing to do with whether Maori are involved or not.

         It is that any unelected person with the legal authority to over rule the decisions of the elected members of government would be the most powerful person in NZ politics.

         Does that not concern you?
         • Res Publica 1.2.1.1.1

           5 February 2025 at 11:01 am

           I guess it comes down to how you interpret the word "democracy."

           You could, as you are attempting to do, interpret it narrowly as simple majoritarianism: "the will of the people," and all that.

           But history has shown, particularly in the 1920s, 30s, and 40s, that this simplicity comes at a cost: an enormous risk to the rights, aspirations, and even the ongoing existence of minorities. When that happens, democracy becomes little more than fascism with extra steps.

           A healthy, modern democracy needs to balance its majoritarian impulses with protections for minorities against popular (but harmful) oppression. It also needs to maintain a fair and level political playing field by upholding constitutional principles.

           In New Zealand’s context, those protections must include some form of co-governance with Māori, the upholding of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, and a check on the traditionally unfettered power of the executive.

           Unless we want to bring back an elected upper house (which would introduce similar issues, just with another chamber) the realistic options come down to some kind of independent commissioner as suggested by TPM, the Supreme Court, or a redefinition of the Governor-General’s powers.
         • alwyn 1.2.1.1.2

           5 February 2025 at 11:05 am

           It doesn't concern me in the slightest provided that I am the Commissioner.

           Is that acceptable?
           • Res Publica 1.2.1.1.2.1

             5 February 2025 at 11:24 am

             Given the status quo of absolute power being in the hands of a group of clueless ideologues stumbling from one constitutional blunder to the next, it’s hard to see how you could do worse.
         • gsays 1.2.1.1.3

           5 February 2025 at 12:09 pm

           In regards my concern I would say 'Whats good for Maori is good for all'.
           • Michael Scott 1.2.1.1.3.1

             5 February 2025 at 12:35 pm

             But who decides what's good for Maori?
             • weka …

               5 February 2025 at 12:47 pm

               Māori
               • gsays …

                 5 February 2025 at 1:23 pm

                 I know we've been told before … How do you put the macron in?

                 I'm on an Oppo fone.

                 Edit, ahh re-reading that I see you were answering Michael.
                 I’m still keen to know about using macrons.
                 • weka …

                   5 February 2025 at 2:34 pm

                   don't know sorry. On an iphone you just long press on the letter on the keyboard and get an option for a range of accents including macrons.
               • Michael Scott …

                 5 February 2025 at 1:30 pm

                 Weka it is not reasonable to simply say Maori can decide what is best for Maori.

                 My wife and I were in the Toitu te Tiriti march at Waitangi last year and there were a lot of different ideas amongst Maori about to bring that about.

                 There was a group from Rotorua that had been influenced by a recent conference they had attended that believed that Maori did not cede sovereignty to the British crown. Therefore they concluded that all land was stolen and redress due.

                 Others said that this was crazy and would incite a race war.

                 There is no consensus between Maori on the meaning of Te Tiriti but most accept that theTreaty provided for the government to have final authority. With all NZ citizens- no matter their ancestry- to have equal rights.
                 • Dennis Frank …

                   5 February 2025 at 2:07 pm

                   Seems to me your view is essential. I would add that it is so on the basis of holism, but some folks here would become hysterical.

                   The question of rights parity can be separated from the Treaty (Seymour's advocacy conflating them is an exercise in confusion), the guts being that civil rights contain both personal and shared elements.
                   • weka …

                     5 February 2025 at 2:42 pm

                     but some folks here would become hysterical.

                     Please stop trolling. At some point a mod is going to get sick of all the little jibes and give you some time out.

                     I call it trolling because I've not seen any evidence that TS commentariat generally would lose their wombs over a conversation about holism.

                     Maybe consider that it's you and the way you communicate (including the continual sniping) that people react to, rather than concepts.
                 • weka …

                   5 February 2025 at 2:45 pm

                   sorry, why can't Māori decide what's best for Māori?

                   I know you don't like the idea of shared governance, but that's a different thing.
             • gsays …

               6 February 2025 at 8:47 am

               "But who decides what's good for Maori?"

               So, if you think "… it is not reasonable to simply say Maori can decide what is best for Maori."

               It's a tad condescending to say that because Maori aren't universally aligned on all matters, they can't work out what's best.

               After all, we have the Westminster system imposed on us, and that is based on differences of opinion.

               I maintain, what is good for Maori is good for all of us.

               Multi generational view to decision making, acknowledging and elevating the whenua above merely something to be acquired, accumulated or traded.
         • bwaghorn 1.2.1.1.4

           5 February 2025 at 12:16 pm

           It concerns me , might as well call the unelected trump card.
         • weka 1.2.1.1.5

           5 February 2025 at 12:47 pm

           what do you think about the ECAN situation?
           • bwaghorn 1.2.1.1.5.1

             5 February 2025 at 3:40 pm

             Not upto date with that , last I recall was national along time ago tipping out the elected officials and appointing a commissioner?

             As a short term act if something is dysfunctional I guess it's necessary, but definitely should go back to elected ASAP.
             • KJT …

               5 February 2025 at 7:52 pm

               ECAN didn't make the decisions Key and Co wanted, in regard to unlimited water pollution by dairy farming etc.

               So. He sacked them.

               An abuse of power and contempt for Democratically elected councillors.
     • Tony Veitch 1.2.2

       5 February 2025 at 9:52 am

       The old upper house, abolished by the Natz in 1951, parroted the House of Lords in the UK – by appointment.

       So I would have no problem accepting Iwi members of an upper house, either elected by iwi members or appointed by the iwi.

       The tangata whenua of this country could then enjoy a true partnership as envisioned in Ti Triti .
       • tWig 1.2.2.1

         5 February 2025 at 10:32 am

         More bottom-up than top down is needed. Instead of an upper house, have citizens assemblies. And a Youth Parliament, like Scotland, which makes recommendations and contributes to legislation. And possibly an equivalent Māori Parliament.
         • Dennis Frank 1.2.2.1.1

           5 February 2025 at 11:08 am

           
         • SPC 1.2.2.1.2

           5 February 2025 at 11:15 am

           Maori can form their own, they would have to make the case – it was a way to restore chieftainship (article 2) to get public money.

           Advocacy to the nations parliament as per SC’s etc and the Crown Ministry’s.

           We use the Select Committee process to involve the general public, issue by issue.
           • tWig 1.2.2.1.2.1

             5 February 2025 at 11:56 am

             Citizen assemblies are NOT select committees. The power relationships in a select are politico : boss; you: supplicant. There is no dialogue to consensus between conflicting points of view for those who present.

             Citizen assemblies aim to develop a consensus national position. Completely different power dynamics and process.
             • SPC …

               5 February 2025 at 12:07 pm

               A citizens' assembly is a collection of individuals selected to be representative of the wider population. It meets over a set period of time to discuss an issue and make recommendations based on deliberation. Once these recommendations are made, the assembly is dissolved.

               To whom do they make recommendations on a policy?

               https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Assembly_(Ireland)
               • weka …

                 5 February 2025 at 2:48 pm

                 To whom do they make recommendations on a policy?

                 Could be any number of places and people. CAs could be run at local level for instance, and make recommendations to councils or community boards.
                 • SPC …

                   5 February 2025 at 2:53 pm

                   Sure local councils could do it, they just usually do a request for individual feedback.

                   Ireland has used it for 5 issues.

                   My point to tWig being that the citizens assembly is used rarely, as in Ireland and sends its report to the parliament, or it does so more often – as per to an issue before a SC.
                   • weka …

                     5 February 2025 at 3:44 pm

                     Sure local councils could do it, they just usually do a request for individual feedback.

                     This is fundamentally a different process than CAs. For one, it relies on people to select themselves in, and most people don't engage. Feedbacks sits alongside lobbying as being for people with special interests and agenda. It's a disempowering process that the hardy engage in, but again most people don't. So the feedback is biased. This bias isn't necessarily bad, but it's not what CAs do. CAs are representative and participatory democracy. They're also an antidote to social and political polarisation.

                     Here's XR's work on CAs,

                     https://extinctionrebellion.uk/decide-together/citizens-assembly/
                 • Dennis Frank …

                   5 February 2025 at 3:18 pm

                   Precisely. As a design tool, it works similar to the swiss army knife. I've advocated the thing here, but it will only get political traction if a party becomes progressive enough to adopt it. No sign of that yet, eh?
               • tWig …

                 5 February 2025 at 4:44 pm

                 The Parliament.
   • SPC 1.3

     5 February 2025 at 8:48 am

     1.*limiting party donations would result in even greater resort to PACS (The Taxpayers Union etc) and even less disclosure.

     Limit funds to New Zealand citizens only with all donations not membership fees disclosed (they will still use fund-raising events to hide donations).

     2.*The USA has matching funds – a doubling of party revenues from membership fees is something to support.

     Parties do get some money from government now (based on their electoral record).

     3.*I would prefer a Crown Council, with the GG as head. This having the right to be informed and to give advice to government on a regular basis (monthly). That is no more limiting to democracy than the UK PM meeting King Charles.

     I would like a greater independence of the Crown from being the agent of majority government will – to defend the institutions (as per POTUS 47) and prevent tyranny – as per Crown Law and the state crime of the cover-up of abuse in care. For mine the GG should have demanded that the government operate lawfully or resign and we should ensure that the Crown in Council can do that.

     4.*I have no problem with a change to the threshold. But would restrict full proportionality to parties over 4% (the original recommendation). Otherwise 1 seat for parties obtaining over 1.5% of the vote and 2 seats to parties getting over 2.5% of the vote. The latter to make some representation within parliament easier.
     • Belladonna 1.3.1

       5 February 2025 at 9:27 am

       "Limit funds to New Zealand citizens only with all donations not membership fees disclosed (they will still use fund-raising events to hide donations)."

       I'd support requiring that fundraising events (over about $20 pp – so excluding sausage sizzles) – have required disclosure of donations.
       Hiding donations through things like art auctions (some scribble that may or may not have been done by the PM, being auctioned at a ridiculous value) – is simply evasion of the requirements.
       If you, truly, value that work by Clark, Key, Luxon or Hipkins at $20K – then you'd be proud to put your name to the price.
   • gsays 1.4

     5 February 2025 at 9:42 am

     Tony, I would vote for that.

     After Ad's comment yesty about framing korero in the people not the state I would observe that democracy is to serve the people. Not companies or corporations let alone foreign multi nationals eg Compass.

     Our pollies have slipped so far from their moorings it's become normal to accept 10s of thousands of dollars from industry eg real estate, trucking and fishing.

     I would suggest only individuals can donate to parties. Not from companies.
     • Michael Scott 1.4.1

       5 February 2025 at 4:42 pm

       Could unions donate?
       • gsays 1.4.1.1

         5 February 2025 at 4:59 pm

         Not by my logic, no.
         • Michael Scott 1.4.1.1.1

           5 February 2025 at 5:26 pm

           The problem is that wealthy individuals and wealthy organisations can fund and influence campaigns without contributing to political parties.
           • gsays 1.4.1.1.1.1

             6 February 2025 at 8:40 am

             That is not a reason to not to start implementing reforms.
   • tWig 1.5

     5 February 2025 at 10:27 am

     How about the Labour election slogan: "Turn's out we weren't that bad after all!"?
     • bwaghorn 1.5.1

       5 February 2025 at 12:18 pm

       I'm not sure reminding voters that they're easily fooled is a winning strategy!
       • tWig 1.5.1.1

         5 February 2025 at 4:48 pm

         I’d argue that us voters realising our own guillibility is the ONLY way that democracy will retain relevance and social validity.
     • weka 1.5.2

       5 February 2025 at 12:30 pm

       😂
     • Obtrectator 1.5.3

       5 February 2025 at 11:37 pm

       No good – it's backward-looking.
   • Sanctuary 1.6

     5 February 2025 at 11:02 am

     Addressing democratic decline though mechanistic tinkering is pointless unless it is explicitly linked to a program of creating a robust social democratic response to the crisis of wealth inequality and growth of plutocratic power. After all, form follows function and the problem isn't necessarily the way we elect governments.

     The crisis of western social democracy lies in the fact that the centre right, centre and centre left have not only run out of ideas (witness Labour's often insipid neoliberal managerialism, the liberal obsession with hyper-individualised identity politics and National's current brain dead recycling of all the worst failures of the last fourteen years of UK Toryism) but they are also no longer able to articulate a liberatory vision for the country and have lost touch with majoritarian positions. This vacuum is currently filled with zombie neoliberalism, plutocratic opportunism and far right hijacking and framing of majoritarian populism.

     Against that, let's look at your proposals (and some others) and see if they could be part of creating the necessary pre-conditions for a decisive rupture with decadent zombie neoliberalism.

     *. limiting party donations to a once only per calendar year, low maximum per person/organisation

     A great idea. I'd extend this to a social media ban on political adverisments in the six months prior to an election and a ban on polling in the three months leading up to a general election.

     *. state funding of all political parties, based on their paid membership (not donations) and kicking in during the election campaign period.

     Another great idea. I am not opposed to careerist professional machine politicians per se, but MMP has created a elite cadre party system where a central committee of apparachiks wields far to much power. Basing funding on a formula that includes membership as a major criteria would counterbalance this by creating an incentive to broaden membership. I'd also up the number of voters required to register a party to at least 1500. While we are on this riff, I'd also do the following:

     A term limit of nine years on list MPs who are not cabinet ministers or party leaders of parties that achieved the threshold in the last election, or shadow ministers of two or three key areas in the official opposition. If you can't rise above back bench mediocrity after nine years, you likely never will so bye bye, make way for better talent.

     * an Iwi upper house, with the task of assessing/approving or rejecting all lower house legislation (giving true meaning to the idea of ‘partnership.’).

     Why not just make it an upper house limited to landowners with more than 500 hectares of land? This is a very bad idea. Creating a race based aristocracy with an undeomcratic veto? No thanks. It would (justifiably) condemn anyone proposing it to opposition forever, and is an undemocratic idea completely at odds with the idea of democratic renewal.

     *. a lower threshold for representation in parliament.

     Don't agree with this either. If you can't get your shit together enough to organise 150,000 or so people to vote for you then you don't deserve to be in parliament, simple as that.

     One other idea – make election day a Wednesday and a public holiday. But only make it a PAID holiday if you voted or at the discretion of your employer. That means if you don't vote and then your employer won't pay you for the day off, then on the minimum wage you be down a couple of hundy at least – effectively a fine for not voting.
     • Tony Veitch 1.6.1

       5 February 2025 at 12:58 pm

       re your last point – make registration AND voting compulsory!
       • weka 1.6.1.1

         5 February 2025 at 1:21 pm

         I like Sanctuary's idea, carrot rather than the stick of fines for not voting (does any country actually do that?)
       • tWig 1.6.1.2

         5 February 2025 at 4:52 pm

         No guarantee of a good electoral outcome for the left: look at Oz, where voting is compulsory.

         But it is heartening to see their citizens seeing voting as a usual part of life.

         See next comment for Bondi voter at Z2022 federal election.
         • tWig 1.6.1.2.1

           5 February 2025 at 4:57 pm

           
           • Shanreagh 1.6.1.2.1.1

             5 February 2025 at 6:22 pm

             That child's foot is in just the wrong place…..on the other hand seeing the busy child at the desk 'voting' I remember going to the polls with my father and having a great time as they had what I thought were chunky 'Black Beauty' pencils that were ideal for scribbling on things……..
   • tWig 1.7

     6 February 2025 at 12:03 am

     Regarding election-fund capping, The Guardian discusses the state of play in Australia, where Labor are finalising donation and election budget caps for the next federal election. Some twiddling going on with exemption of union funds.

     Some states, but not the federal electorate also have a 'truth' rider, where parties are not allowed to lie in their campaign material.
2. Dennis Frank 2

   5 February 2025 at 7:41 am

   https://edition.cnn.com/2025/02/04/politics/education-department-trump-executive-order/index.html

   Education must be eliminated due to everyone being taught a bunch of crap all the time. This shit has been happening since the 19th century. It's how to recycle neo-colonialism constantly: just make sure kids learn the 19th century view of life. So I get where Trump's coming from, but doubt being that radical will work well.

   The Trump administration has begun drafting an executive order that would kick off the process of eliminating the Department of Education, the latest move by President Donald Trump to swiftly carry out his campaign promises, two sources familiar with the plans told CNN.

   The move would come in two parts, the sources said. The order would direct the secretary of Education to create a plan to diminish the department through executive action.

   Trump would also push for Congress to pass legislation to end the department, as those working on the order acknowledge that shuttering the department would require Congress’ involvement.

   Don't discount the immense entertainment value likely to result from western civilisation having to do what it takes to survive. They've been on autopilot so long the floundering will be all over the place. Antics of deranged authority figures will appear in the media.
3. Dennis Frank 3

   5 February 2025 at 7:52 am

   The trade war is now declared a happening thing by the BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c7vdjpj7pe3o

   Beijing's promised tariff retaliation – including new levies on imports from the US of oil, agricultural machinery and some cars – is far less sweeping. Yet the retaliation moves us into the arena of tit-for-tat action, where the country experiencing the tariffs feels it has no choice but to hit back to show its own citizens it can't be pushed around by a foreign power.

   This is the dictionary definition of a trade war – and economic historians warn they tend to generate their own momentum and can rapidly spiral out of control.

   The trade war has been produced by the triad depicted in the BBC's colour graph. It shows China/Mexico/Canada in parity trade relations with the USA. All 3 nations hover around 15% of US imports. It's a classic example of how triads drive natural processes.
4. Dennis Frank 4

   5 February 2025 at 8:51 am

   There's so much good news coming out of the White House right now that the msm can't keep up, White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt tells Hannity in this Fox clip: https://www.foxnews.com/media/media-cant-keep-up-good-news-flowing-from-trump-white-house-karoline-leavitt-says

   Looking at the ONE News front page this morning, it's obvious she got that right! Stuff front page, just as useless. The RNZ politics page leads with a paranoid view of T getting down so far in his list of priorities that he chooses NZ as next target, then presents a bunch of domestic tedium alongside. Such a pathetic performance all round that one sympathises with those who support shredding the media. Except we need it.

   Hannity recites the list of countries that have already yielded to T: Canada, Mexico, Panama, Denmark, Colombia, Venezuela. The news media have featured stories validating his claim, but journalists haven't noticed the metapattern (a hexad). Other countries may join this group bandwagon effect. When a conductor gets a bunch of musos to play in tune together, folks appreciate the coordination. To get a bunch of nations to dance together to the US tune is similar group psychodynamics.
5. Jenny 5

   5 February 2025 at 8:53 am

   "No One is Prepared For What's About To Happen…" Benjamin Netanyahu Feb 1,

   2025 February 1st, 2025, Prime Minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu gave a speech calling on Hamas to return Ariel, Shiri, and Kfir.

   The Prime Minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu is preparing his argument for not going to Stage 2 and 3 of the ceasefire agreement. In this speech Netanayhu will tell the people of Israel and the world that the only way for Israel to get back their remaining hostages is by force.

   The names Shiri, Ariel and Kfir’ that Netanyahu mentioned in his speech on the 1st of February are the names of the mother and children of the Bibas family who were kidnapped on October 7 and killed in the indiscriminate carpet bombing of Gaza City begun on October 8. Their father and husband had been captured and held separately from the rest of his family and survived the bombing and was released in the recent prisoner exchange.

   In the previous ceasefire there were reports that Hamas had offered to return the remains of the dead Bibas family members to the Israelis, but the Israelis refused to accept their remains, on the grounds that the Bibas family were still alive and that Hamas still holding them captive.

   It suits Netanyahu to maintain the fiction that the Bibas family are still alive, as cover for the fact that they were killed by Israel.

   On the grounds that Hamas are refusing to release the Bibas family members, and that the Bibas family are still alive and held by Hamas is a handy pretext for breaking the ceasefire and restarting genocide.

   In the same speech in which he named the members of the Bibi family Netanyahu also said this. "No One is Prepared For What's About To Happen…"

   Peace through strength

   God is on our side
   • SPC 5.1

     5 February 2025 at 9:29 am

     BN earlier quoted the bible to infer nations should appease Israel, now the language of end time religion "No One is Prepared For What's About To Happen".

     Of course the latter is also associated with ambition to realise their tyranny on earth, the strong man others should fear.

     Meanwhile Jews in America, part of a right wing Jewish movement, accuse a fellow American of treason, because of an article on Israel in the New York Times (and a related book). The threats of violence distracting them from their campaign to dob in foreign students seen as pro Palestinian.

     https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/2025-02-04/ty-article/.premium/hes-a-traitor-right-wing-group-targets-jewish-american-author-over-israel-criticism/00000194-d1ef-df91-ab95-ffefc1f60000
   • Jenny 5.2

     5 February 2025 at 9:35 am
     • SPC 5.2.1

       5 February 2025 at 10:33 am

       BN supplicant to DJT.

       https://bsky.app/profile/nytimes.com/post/3lheyfaxvnc2c

       https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/19/jared-kushner-gaza-waterfront-property-israel-negev?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
     • Incognito 5.2.2

       5 February 2025 at 10:44 am

       Your point?
       • SPC 5.2.2.1

         5 February 2025 at 11:21 am

         I would guess to note the wisdom of Voltaire, to the effect that those who march to the trumpets of their God are the most lawless of all.

         Voltaire was a proponent of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and separation of church and state

         Voltaire was a deist who believed God created the world but did not intervene in it.

         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltaire
         • aj 5.2.2.1.1

           5 February 2025 at 1:07 pm

           Voltaire was a deist who believed God created the world but did not intervene in it.

           I read this recently and it resonates strongly with me

           And fascinatingly, few know that at the time Enlightenment thinkers like Voltaire and Leibniz turned to Confucianism for inspiration. They saw in it a secular antidote to Europe’s theological bloodshed—morality rooted in social harmony, not scripture. Voltaire in particular was so in love with China that he had only one portrait in his study: that of Confucius, whom he described as “speaking only of the purest morality” and writing that, “since his time”, no “finer rule of conduct has ever been given throughout the earth”.

           Yet the West chose liberalism—a system emphasizing individual rights over Confucian harmony. Three centuries later, we face the consequences: a society so obsessed with the individual it has forgotten how to sustain a common good. We've reached a wall just as our Enlightenment predecessors faced the limitations of Christian statecraft.

           https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1885601993429049574.html
           • Dennis Frank 5.2.2.1.1.1

             5 February 2025 at 2:02 pm

             Yes, your point about the common good is one I often make in different political contexts, ever since I resonated with Jeanette Fitzsimons telling the Greens to prioritise it. Obviously those in parliament have failed to get that message – otherwise they'd be telling the people to focus on it.
       • Jenny 5.2.2.2

         5 February 2025 at 8:26 pm

         Every empire throughout history has always employed some mystical or religious moral veneer to justify and hide their real motivations for imperial expansion.

         For the Holy Roman empire it was the Church of Rome.

         For the British Empire it was the Church of England.

         For the Czarist imperialists it was the Russian Orthodox Church, (and for Putin it still is)

         Every empire needs to have God on its side, specifically their very own God.

         The US Christian evangelicals serves that purpose for American imperialism and their hyper-imperialist President, Donald Trump.

         .
         • Incognito 5.2.2.2.1

           5 February 2025 at 8:59 pm

           Thank you for the History lesson.

           But what about Bob?
         • Dennis Frank 5.2.2.2.2

           5 February 2025 at 9:40 pm

           I preferred Manfred Mann's version, but listening again to Bob copy Woody Guthrie's style of singing reminded me that "you don't count the dead when God's on your side." So presumably neither side in the Gaza conflict are counting them. We could call it semite accounting policy, eh?
   • Morrissey 5.3

     5 February 2025 at 10:07 am

     On the subject of the blood-soaked Israeli regime, Jenny, the American journalist Max Blumenthal points out that the American politicians and bureaucrats who enabled the genocide will pay a price, even though they will not go to prison for their crimes. A retired teaching colleague of Max congratulated him for confronting Blinken at the State Department recently, and predicted the future tortured existence of Blinken as he gets older and has to bear the psychic burden of his crimes: "One day Tony Blinken will be like Robert McNamara as I saw him in 1992: alone, a shrunken man, his head hung down, walking across New York Avenue alone. And, God willing, Tony Blinken will not be able to cross a street again without being hounded."
     • SPC 5.3.1

       5 February 2025 at 10:30 am

       His mea culpa in 1995.

       https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_McNamara
       • Morrissey 5.3.1.1

         5 February 2025 at 10:36 am

         Thanks for that. He was actually a very impressive person, in spite of everything.
     • Bearded Git 5.3.2

       5 February 2025 at 11:11 am

       Well said Morrissey….we can only hope he is hounded remorselessly.

       But Blinken is so arrogant, self-important and thick-skinned that unfortunately he will not notice.
   • tWig 5.4

     5 February 2025 at 10:35 am

     More like a righteous holy war, a jihad. That’s the language in the Israeli press.
     • Macro 5.4.1

       5 February 2025 at 11:16 am

       Exactly – and the religious right believe they have the backing of prophecy behind them – for example:

       Isaiah 61: 1-9

       3 and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
       to bestow on them a crown of beauty
       instead of ashes,
       the oil of joy
       instead of mourning,
       and a garment of praise
       instead of a spirit of despair.
       They will be called oaks of righteousness,
       a planting of the Lord
       for the display of his splendor.

       4 They will rebuild the ancient ruins
       and restore the places long devastated;
       they will renew the ruined cities
       that have been devastated for generations.
       5 Strangers will shepherd your flocks;
       foreigners will work your fields and vineyards.
       6 And you will be called priests of the Lord,
       you will be named ministers of our God.
       You will feed on the wealth of nations,
       and in their riches you will boast.

       At the beginning of his ministry when Jesus went back to his home town of Nazareth in the synagogue he read verses 1 and 2 from the above passage, but stopped before verse 3. ie the following verses were not what God intended. He then reminded his listeners that God didn't just favour Jewish people – he was concerned for all people, no matter who they were. This was enough for the townsfolk to grab him and take him off to a nearby cliff with the intention of stoning him.

       Luke 4: 16-30
6. tWig 6

   5 February 2025 at 10:45 am

   What a broken health service delivers: the deaths of neonates in the hospital where Lucy Lethby was sentenced for multiple infanticides was so poorly run that an independent review, including international paediatricians concludes the alleged killings can all be attributed to medical negligence within the unit.

   ‘there were numerous problems in the care of the babies, including a failure to properly carry out “basic medical procedures, delays in their treatment and the misdiagnosis of diseases”.’.

   There is a legal appeal against her conviction.
7. SPC 7

   5 February 2025 at 11:50 am

   Haaretz has one article claiming BN's election campaign is being launched at the White House

   Netanyahu is preparing his re-election campaign – capitalizing on American support for a Gazan population transfer as a potential campaign platform. No clear rival has emerged to challenge the message

   https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-02-03/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-will-launch-his-election-campaign-from-trumps-white-house/00000194-ccfc-d7d0-a7fd-cefee4260000

   and another article from a former Labour leader, one who removed BN from politics for a decade, with an election win in 1999.

   The resumption of all-out war in Gaza will not be allowed, and later on, an inter-Arab force will enter the picture, with the consent and inclusion of the Palestinian Authority and the backing of the Arab League, the U.S. and the UN Security Council, so that an alternative to Hamas will gradually be installed.

   The issue of transferring Palestinians from Gaza will evaporate rapidly. No consent will be given to annexation in the Gaza Strip or in Judea and Samaria. Israel will be given military equipment and threats will be made against Iran, but Trump will later strive for an improved nuclear accord.

   https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2025-02-04/ty-article-opinion/.premium/trump-will-twist-netanyahus-arm-in-the-white-house-israelis-can-use-that-to-topple-him/00000194-cd66-d78d-affc-edef32630000
8. joe90 8

   5 February 2025 at 12:17 pm

   Fucking hypocrites.

   /

   Daily Indignation

   @DailyIndgnation

   2019: Labour Party President resigns for mishandling sexual assault claims. 2025: media can name the former ACT Party president found guilty of sexual abuse in the 90s. Both cases are newsworthy, but so far only one has got the "opinion" avalanche of keeping it in the news.

   

   https://xcancel.com/DailyIndgnation/status/1886195756043821485
   • bwaghorn 8.1

     5 February 2025 at 12:24 pm

     Is it really hypocrisy if the people above are mouthpieces for the right wing nats and act and are most likely just doing their job.
     • joe90 8.1.1

       5 February 2025 at 12:46 pm

       Worse. They're giving a free ride to this sleazy prick.

       
9. SPC 9

   5 February 2025 at 1:03 pm

   Prebble

   Last week The Economist magazine commented that “around the world, an anti-red-tape revolution is taking hold. Done right, deregulation could kick-start economic growth”.

   No mention of tariffs or anti-immigration sentiment at the Economist?

   Labour has swallowed its own propaganda that the remedy to the country’s ills is a tax on wealth.

   It is a remedy for a government unable to finance its public services.

   Tax incentives can also move finance away from speculation on property values towards economic investment.

   The coalition has identified the issue, the need for growth, and has outlined a solution.

   Hipkins should acknowledge that the planning laws are not fit for purpose, that there are too many regulations and Luxon is correct. Instead, there is a culture of saying no.

   If Labour were to pledge a bipartisan, successive Government commitment, to lift productivity and growth, then Labour would take a significant step towards being electable.

   A better plan would be preferable. Less spent on roads, more invested in our future economy.

   PS There was once a bi-partisan plan on urban development, but National withdrew.

   https://archive.li/YYWIy#selection-4499.0-4505.172
10. SPC 10

    5 February 2025 at 1:34 pm

    Unemployment up again to 5.1%.

    Classic Keynesian circumstance, government cuts spending and makes recession worse.

    Labour's finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds said spiking unemployment "is what happens when the Government chooses to slash funding for frontline services, cut public sector jobs, and undermine economic stability

    But Nicola excuses Willis

    Finance Minister Nicola Willis said the figures were the "human cost of lingering effects of economic mismanagement by the previous government".

    Most outside certain political circles would cite Orr's 2021 policy.

    With inflation now under control …

    Inflation was coming down before the election in 2023, and is now only where it was forecast to be in 2022.

    https://www.1news.co.nz/2025/02/05/unemployment-rate-rises-to-51-highest-since-2020/
    • tWig 10.1

      5 February 2025 at 5:02 pm

      As per the early 80's depression under Nats austerity, that percentage is lower for middle-age groups, and at 20-30% for those under 25.
      • KJT 10.1.1

        6 February 2025 at 5:45 am

        1984 to 90 was Rogernomics. When Labour was hijacked by ACTIODS.

        The Richardson/Bolger recession was 1991.
        Just like this lot. One year to crash the economy. Though, to be fair, that time the foundations of that recession was started by the Rogernomes. BTW with the countries highest ever debt to GDP, to boot.

        It took over 20 years after those Governments for the economy to recover to it’s previous level.

        We may never recover from the Coalition of Cockups. Even Prebble is being re cycled, instead of being left where he belongs, as failed past history.
    • Psycho Milt 10.2

      5 February 2025 at 6:47 pm

      But surely we can't blame Nicola Willis for not knowing that following policies to suppress the economy and increase unemployment would suppress the economy and increase unemployment, I mean how could she possibly have foreseen those outcomes?
      • Incognito 10.2.1

        5 February 2025 at 7:00 pm

        Willis designed and engineered rising unemployment because this was her way of getting inflation under control. She tried to stimulate the dairy and entertainment industry by giving us a tax cut for ice creams and movies believing that this was enough for a honey puff. This hasn’t lifted all ferries of the economy, but we all know it’s because of the cold weather.

        https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/540988/new-zealand-experienced-the-coldest-january-since-2017-according-to-niwa
11. Joe90 11

    5 February 2025 at 1:42 pm

    But genocide Joe..

    /

    U.S. President Donald Trump said Monday during a press conference with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that “the U.S. will take over the Gaza Strip and well do a good job with it too. We’ll own it and be responsible for dismantling all the dangerous unexploded bombs and other weapons on the site, level the site and get rid of the destroyed buildings, level it out and create economic development that will supply unlimited numbers of jobs and housing for the people of the area.”
    Trump, asked if U.S. troops will be sent to Gaza, replied: “If it’s necessary, we’ll do that. We’re gonna take over that piece and develop it, create thousands and thousands of jobs. It will be something the entire middle east can be very proud of.”

    

    https://archive.li/xtOa (haaretz)
    • SPC 11.1

      5 February 2025 at 2:36 pm

      Who gets the royalties on the "Gaza" share of the gas field, or does another claimant get all of it?
      • Macro 11.1.1

        5 February 2025 at 3:44 pm

        Nah – Trump just wants to build another Mar-a-Lago and staff it with "refugee" Palestinians.
    • tWig 11.2

      5 February 2025 at 3:55 pm

      How about those muslim voters who switched to Trump over Biden's Israel support. Each day Trump betrays a new part of his voting base.
      • satty 11.2.1

        5 February 2025 at 4:14 pm

        Trump doesn't require a "voting base" anymore:

        Trump Declines to Back Away From ‘You Don’t Have to Vote Again’ Line

        The former president, in an interview on Fox News, declined to back away from his comments and repeated his argument that if he’s elected, “the country will be fixed” and their votes won’t be needed.

        NY Times
      • Psycho Milt 11.2.2

        5 February 2025 at 6:45 pm

        If anyone voted Trump because they felt he'd be more hostile to Israel than Biden was, they deserve everything that they get. There's only so much human stupidity that can be forgiven.
    • Ad 11.3

      5 February 2025 at 4:06 pm

      Clasp your arms to that tarbaby Mr Trump,

      you're on a winner that Rome and the Ottomans needed tens of thousands of boots on the ground to suppress, for several centuries.
    • Macro 11.4

      5 February 2025 at 4:17 pm

      Regrettably removing Trump from office – even as he continues to display total insanity – is near impossible.
    • Macro 11.5

      5 February 2025 at 4:24 pm

      Just in:

      
      • joe90 11.5.1

        5 February 2025 at 4:45 pm

        Well that’s a no.

        
    • Jenny 11.6

      5 February 2025 at 5:20 pm

      '

      Greenland, Panama, Canada and now Gaza?

      The four non-US territories Donald Trump says he wants to "Take Over"

      You might ask yourself, 'What's wrong with this Guy?'

      'What is he thinking?'

      "Is he mad?"

      No, Trump's not mad, or even "eccentric". Trump is saying out loud, that other supporters of US imperialism have been saying sotto voce for a long time..

      Victor Davis Hanson a prominent conservative commentator, both understands what Trump is saying, and sympathetic to what Trump is doing:

      Trump's 21st Century brand of Hyper-Imperialism explained:

      “No One Is Prepared for What’s About to Happen… | Victor Davis Hanson”

      @0:12

      He has certain things he thinks need to be addressed. And he knows it's not eccentric, that other people have mentioned it….

      @2:18

      China's taking it over. We might have to go in there, and I won't rule out force…..

      @4:02

      He says, 'Well you [Panama] think we're an imperial power. You're against imperialism and Yankees?'

      'You brought in the Chinese, they're worse imperialists than we are.'

      Then he says to the Danish, 'You're lecturing us, me? That I'm getting in your Internal Affairs? You're a little tiny country, and you [Denmark] are a colonial power. You've got this big continent and you're acting like you're a 19th century colonialist.

      @5:06

      I guess we're a mercantile colonial power, where the British learned that colonialism didn't work. So either be part of us, or just stop it, just go your own way….

      ……you better pay up if you want to be a partner. But if you want to be a colonial subject, then keep doing what you want, and we'll treat you that way.
    • Psycho Milt 11.7

      5 February 2025 at 6:41 pm

      He's trolling at this point. It's up there with building a wall and getting Mexico to pay for it, or ending the war in Ukraine within 24 hours of taking office. Blowhards gonna blowhard, it's in their nature.
12. Poldark 12

    5 February 2025 at 4:37 pm

    I would not be surprised if there is a coup by the US military soon. Musk and his minions have their hands on loads of sensitive information, Trump has and intends doing a lot of dumb things and is leaving various vacuums throughout the world for Putin and China to fill.
    • Jenny 12.1

      5 February 2025 at 5:35 pm

      Hi Poldark, I would be very surprised indeed, if the US military staged a coup against Trump. The US imperial war machine and MIC don't think Trump is doing "dumb things" at all, as far as they are concerned Trump is not leaving a vacuum for Russia and China to fill, far from it.
      • Obtrectator 12.1.1

        5 February 2025 at 11:51 pm

        Likely or not, it's the only way I can see for America to extricate itself from this dire situation.

        "The appalling thing about fascism is that you've got to use fascist methods to get rid of it." – Kevin Brownlow / Andrew Mollo
13. tWig 13

    5 February 2025 at 5:05 pm

    https://ground.news/article/google-drops-pledge-not-to-use-ai-for-weapons-or-surveillance_60c090
14. Populuxe 14

    5 February 2025 at 11:27 pm

    Jesus God!
    
    • Bearded Git 14.1

      6 February 2025 at 2:09 am

      Trotters credibility plummets.

      It's a badge of honour not to be invited/go.

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