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Open mike 05/04/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, April 5th, 2019 - 153 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

153 comments on “Open mike 05/04/2019 ”

  1. Dennis Frank 1

    Posted to Bowalley Road: “The highly anticipated debate between Slovenian Marxist philosopher Slavoj Žižek and Canadian psychologist/philosopher Jordan Peterson is due to take place in a couple of weeks. The title: Happiness: Capitalism Vs. Marxism
    The show (in Toronto) sold out in minutes but there is a live event stream (including a months free access) available. https://www.jordanvsslavojdebate.com/

    Would be nice if the comparison were to focus on the capacity of each ism to produce happiness, eh? I bet no such thing happens! I expect the two debaters will compete to demonstrate their mastery of spin, spinning out as many interesting digressions as they can in the avalailable time…

    • Sabine 1.1

      good grief, just wait, watch it on the stream and then let us know if you approve or not.

    • Incognito 1.2

      A more contemporary title would be: “Do Capitalism and Marxism Spark Joy?”.

      Soon to be available on Netflix.

    • RedLogix 1.3

      I must confess it took me way too long to spot it; but one of Peterson’s core contentions is that ALL the so called ‘isms fail us. It’s his rejection of the whole idea of totalising ideologies that’s particularly challenging to the modern mind.

      We’re so used to thinking in binary terms like capitalist/socialist, authoritarian/libertarian, masculine/feminine, order/chaos, etc that someone who says that the correct place to be is on the narrow boundary between them, is going to piss a lot of people right off.

      • Dennis Frank 1.3.1

        I’ve made that point myself often, via triangulating a binary. If he’s genuinely intermediary, then I may take an interest in his advocacy. To be honest, however, I’m more interested in whether the other guy will attempt the task of bringing Marxism into the new millennium.

        I mean in a way that is persuasive, rather than abysmal. It seems an heroic task, and I quite understand why Marxists are so reluctant to undertake it, but the fact is class structures have actually persisted into contemporary society – even if in truncated form.

        • RedLogix

          To be honest, however, I’m more interested in whether the other guy will attempt the task of bringing Marxism into the new millennium.

          That’s the same task I’ve wrestled with here for years and not made any progress I was happy with.

          P has repeatedly made the point that while hierarchy is essential, it has two key problems; one is that it tends towards tyranny if unchecked, and the other is that the majority of people tend to ‘stack up at the bottom’. And the bottom is not only a terrible place to be, it’s damned hard to escape from. He then makes it clear the proper role of the left as he sees it, is to be the advocate and voice for this majority of people.

          Worse still he points out that inequality is something humans are acutely sensitive too and it’s a way more deeply embedded and serious problem than even the radical left often assume. Frustratingly, having diagnosed the problem, if you’re looking for an ideological solution, one that applies at a group or structural level, you’re going to be disappointed. Certainly for a long time I was too.

          But then he doesn’t have this on his own. None of the major religions speak to a structural solution to inequality. (Except one). This was the same gripe Marx had against organised religion and hence the ‘opiate of the masses’ line.

          Worse still the extraordinary success of capitalism and technology in dramatically reducing absolute poverty (for the first time in human history more than 50% of all people are now middle class) … it has paradoxically exacerbated the problem of inequality. Which is only worse now than it was in the time of Marx.

          The direction P takes as a psychologist is not surprising, he places the individual at the centre, and contends that your best bet is to get your act together, get competent and take on as much responsibility as you can cope with. This of course is not naturally satisfying at all to your average left winger; certainly he’s respectful of the left’s fundamental reason for existence, but as for ‘dragging marxism into the new millennium’ it’s a task P leaves to each of us.

          And personally I find that more helpful than not.

          • Dennis Frank

            I have no problem with his advocacy of personal responsibility (having learnt all about it the hard way). The Greens undertook the challenge of social responsibility. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_responsibility

            “Social responsibility must be intergenerational since the actions of one generation have consequences on those following.” However, applying this to inequality requires intellectual discipline – something most Greens lack!

            You ought to have seen them freaking out when I presented a paper outlining a solution to income inequality that was genuinely radical! It required a disciplined process of consensus-building in stages to identify the ratio of allowable maximum income to minimum that most people would endorse (I personally chose a ratio of 7:1).

            In other words, it was a stakeholder design intended to provide equity rather than equality. It was a principled design that provided pragmatism in implementation, to make it workable.

            In respect of the impending debate, it would be the curve ball likely to bowl over both academics. But let’s hope either or both does a bit of lateral-thinking to transcend their respective indoctrinations!

  2. Sanctuary 2

    The TVNZ news last night had the most remarkable piece of MSM fake news.

    Reporting on the select committee process for the gun law reforms, it focussed on two groups in it’s shots – first David Tipple, a dangerous and entitled convicted criminal and gun extremist then a shot of a black gentleman from the Islamic Council of NZ speaking. The visual subtext was striking – white vs black, gun owners vs Islam, us vs them. Yet most submissions – from Fish and Game, an organisation with way more grassroots members than Gun City’s mailing list to crackpots, for example – supported the law change.

    IMHO, the coverage of the select committee process across all media amounts to fake news. A beat up of a few wing nut opponents of the law juxtaposed deliberately with religious and racial “outliers” to create a fake narrative of “extremes” in order to generate cheap knee jerk – and fake – headlines.

    • Bruce 2.1

      Yes I saw that and thought the same, Tipple on the side of law abiding people and those that were questioning him were creating division, why was he not asked about his criminal convictions and let people see him for what he is.

      • Matiri 2.1.1

        Listened to a very careful and measured submission from Rural Women backed up by a survey of their members who were overwhelmingly in favour of better gun control. “If you think you need a semi automatic, learn to shoot!”.

        • aj

          Yes the worst thing about that news clip was that is did represent both sides of the debate, but so badly packaged. The correct way would have been a clip of Tipple, then a medley of short clips showing every group on the other side. with the organisation they represent subtitled. Should be up on Youtube.

    • ianmac 2.2

      Laura Walters gave a pretty good report in Newsroom:
      Submitters fell into three rough camps. The first: those who want the law change and want it now (in truth, most of these submitters wished it had happened years ago)….

      The second camp includes sport shooters, hunters, landowners and collectors – these people agree guns used to kill people should be banned for use by the general public, but believe specific exemptions should be made for law-abiding gun owners like themselves….

      Meanwhile, the third group was small but held a mighty megaphone. Self-appointed spokesman of New Zealand’s radical gun lobby Mike Loder and owner of the country’s largest gun retailer David Tipple each used their oral submissions to decry the law change….

      • WeTheBleeple 2.2.1

        Ahh Mike Loder. Named his comedy CD Stingray, a tribute to his joke about womens genitalia.

        Shit then, still shit now.

      • KJT 2.2.2

        Noting that a proportion of the second camp are willing to do without, or have their use of semi-autos’ restricted, for the public good.

        It seems a lot of the ‘for’ gun lobby are “survivalist” fantasists or really want guns for “self defense” without admitting it. Knowing that saying that, will disqualify them from having a gun license.

        There is a lot of bad faith bs around at present from the gun lobby. Like claiming the Government is trying to restrict paint balling.

    • It’s the video version of clickbait – they know Tipple can be replied on to say stupid, wrong, inflammatory things so he gets the most screen time. The annoying part is that you can understand why privately-owned media companies would do it, but there’s no reason at all why a public broadcaster should join them.

      • Andre 2.3.1

        Our public broadcaster emulates the worst behaviours of a private media company because they’ve been told to be like a private media company. It sure would be nice for the current govt to revise TVNZ’s charter back to acting like a public broadcaster, but I can understand other priorities taking precedence.

        • Psycho Milt

          On reflection, “no reason at all” was untrue – bad, stupid, incomprehensible reasons are always a possible explanation for something that looks completely unreasonable.

        • OnceWasTim

          Like you @ Andre, I understand there are other priorities, especially at the moment. Piss poor though that it’s been allowed to crap out to the extent it has, and fester for so long.
          It sure would be ‘nice’ to have a public service broadcaster/telecaster. ACTUALLY, it’s not just a nice to have in a functioning democracy, it’s essential.
          But such is the nature of 30 years of the neo-liberal religion and Maggie’s claim that “there is no such thing as society”.

          Tribalism aside, there are still a few good journalists about that adhere to the principles of the 4th Estate. Currently, they just don’t have a ‘platform’.

          And even those that do sometimes have onerous mortgages to pay, lifestyles to maintain, and bubbles they have to exist and breathe in, in order to remain being gorgeous

    • Augustus 2.4

      That juxtapositioning is for ‘balance’. No piece on climate change can do without a dairy farmer. No report on CGT is complete without a real estate agent’s opinion. Fish ‘stocks’ need preserving? Talley’s will tell you otherwise. If there’s no controversy, they’ll find one. Self-interest no disqualifier.

  3. Dennis Frank 3

    If you’re going to set up a gravy train for useless bureaucrats and retired party hacks, here’s an excellent (non-)working model: “Regenerate Christchurch has spent two years and nearly $500,000 working out how the city’s eastern suburbs will adapt to sea-level rise, but is yet to come up with any options.”

    “Regenerate, which is jointly funded by the Crown and the Christchurch City Council, has been working on the project since the 2016-17 financial year. It is charged with developing a strategy for how Southshore and South New Brighton will adapt to climate change in the short to long term, and how they will manage ongoing earthquake issues.”


    The essential part of the prescription is to ensure that the org & managers are not contracted to deliver suitable results in a suitable time-frame. National & Labour have known this for yonks, which is why shit like this keeps happening!

    “Christchurch mayor Lianne Dalziel said Regenerate still needed to advise whether a regeneration plan was required for any of the work needed in the area. A regeneration plan differs from a regeneration strategy in that it has legal powers under the Christchurch Regeneration Act, whereas a strategy has no legislative power.”

    Nobody expects a Labour mayor to demonstrate leadership, so she doesn’t. Her tacit assumption that Christchurch folk are tough enough to suffer forever speaks volumes. They don’t need her to crack the whip over those feeding at the funding trough. “Regenerate has a history of delays in its planning work.”

    “Regenerate’s future will be discussed as part of the global settlement negotiations that will clarify Crown and council responsibilities for the rest of the city’s rebuild. 
    Dalziel has previously said she would like all rebuild entities to be bought into a single council-controlled urban development authority. Councillors have said they think the city has too many rebuild agencies and raised the possibility of funding cuts for Regenerate.”

    “Concerns were raised over Regenerate’s performance from as early as April 2017, when Dalziel and then-Greater Christchurch Regeneration Minister Gerry Brownlee wrote to the agency expressing a lack of confidence in its work programme.”

    Well, whoopee-do!! Bipartisan complaining. What an exemplary demonstration of establishment ineffectual politicking. Why not actually do something about it? Solve the goddam problem, for god’s sake!

    • lprent 3.1

      The basic problem is that there is no way in the eastern suburbs of ChCh to adapt to sea level rise. The only effective means is to have not built there in the first place.

      Given that the 1m rise is inevitable and a 5 meter rise is not out of the question during the lifetime of any new works then the best idea is to not invest in the area, and prepare for bulldozing.

      All the available evidence is that the ice sheets are unstable at similar CO2 levels to what we have now. Since I can see no evidence to indicate that we can reduce our increase in greenhouse gases – adaption is going to be by bulldozer.

      • RedLogix 3.1.1

        5m would bulldoze ChCh and flush out all the neo-nazi’s.

        • lprent

          A 1m rise would leave them drowning in shit as the sewers back up. That would happen a lot earlier.

          • RedLogix

            As an ex-local body type I couldn’t agree more. Critical infrastructure within a few metres of sea level is our first point of vulnerability across the whole city.

            It doesn’t matter how far above the sea your home is, if the city itself is crippled by every king tide that coincides with a storm.

          • ianmac

            Most of Christchurch drainage has to be pumped up at pumping stations as by the time you get down to sewage level it is near sea level.
            Christchurch is about 20metres above sea level.

          • greywarshark

            A sensible model would be to create swales and large clumps of salt-managing reeds and plants like mangroves for helping to slow surges and clean overflows. Plant trees that can stand salt water, and create a green area and then beside it have a dog park. There could be areas that have houseboats and moorings with gate protection against high tides. They would have to be motorised and with a channel to the Avon or something so they could come inland in storms and have a gate behind them to control swells from surging up the river.

            Just get started on something practical immediately not sit and stare at the headlights. Further in there could be grazing areas, and pony club grounds with flood protection barriers giving time protection for clearing animals before eventual inundation in storms and as sea rise occurs, these would have to be abandoned.

            Regenerate were probably more in line with a name of Degenerate.
            No doubt they were looking to see if they could sell the land to a foreign investor wanting land on a coastline and couldn’t find any silly enough to try it. Or thinking could they call it a Special Housing Area and sell the idea to a speculator without specs.

          • Poission

            The chch outflow for the treated water is around 5km offshore buried 8m under the seabed ,Unlike auckland which shits into the waitemata.

            • KJT

              Actually into the Manukau.

              And it is treated.

              However the aging stormwater connections, remain a real problem.

              As does the design for a much smaller population.

        • Skunk Weed

          ChCh has always been the Neo Nazi Bogan Capital of NZ ?

        • te reo putake

          Oi, you lot! You seem to have forgotten that Christchurch is NZ’s most left leaning city. The neo-nazi element is a tiny proportion of the population and are generally just ignored by the locals.

          The suburbs in the East are solidly working class and have not only been badly affected by the quake, they were deliberately left to rot by Gerry Brownlee in the aftermath. If you want to talk about why housing was built on an obviously risky low lying area, I’d refer you back to working class nature of the East.

          There’s little risk to Tory voters if a tsunami hits.

      • Dennis Frank 3.1.2

        Makes sense. In that case the authorities ought to eliminate the gravy train, since it is serving no purpose. The mayor and/or minister for local govt ought to declare Regenerate a waste of time & money.

        • lprent

          Problem is that you need to have talk fests because it is also the only way educate a lot of people. In this case, who would be the best people to educate? Look at who you said were on it.

          Personally I find that the net way to educate people who think with their mouths is to get them to try to solve a real world problem. And this would be way way cheaper than trying foredoomed public works to ‘adapt’ to sealevel rises.

          The price tag for those is counted in the billions.

          Just be careful about what you wish for.

          Personally I live 85m above the current sealevel just over the hill from the Queen Street Inlet. I already adapted above the highest known sealevel rise. Such is my faith in humans ability to understand.

          • Dennis Frank

            How did you discover that 85m? Is there a website we can go to that provides elevation of any street address?? I’d guess my elevation is similar to yours, since I’ve walked up from the beach enough times to get a good sense of it, but I’d be keen to confirm that.

            • Andre

              Have a rummage around in your local council website and they probably have a maps app that includes contour layers you can turn on. Here in Dorkland you can get detail down to 0.5m contours, but the Far North District Council app was way less detailed.

              If 20m contours are fine for you, you can get onto https://www.topomap.co.nz/ and scroll around and zoom to your address.

              There’s also apps that say they get elevation data from Google Earth’s database, or a maps app on your phone using GPS to give you elevation. But they don’t seem accurate: the cliff edge at my place is 43m above sealevel, data from those apps said anywhere from 17m to 104m. Tossing a dead possum in the water and timing from release to splash gave a more accurate result.

              • Dennis Frank

                Thanks, I’ll see what I can find. Heh! That possum timing scenario gave me a bad memory of doing maths & physics equations half a century back, calculating similar results. Easy if it was just velocity, but gravity accelerates.

            • mpledger

              Google earth will tell you as well – but it’s probably a prediction/guesstimate so take it with a grain of salt.

            • lprent

              I got it off the LINZ databases. When I was looking at the geology reports. I wanted the bounds of the property.

              However there is the cheap and fast edition. Use Google maps, set to bike or walking and do a route from sealevel to home. Somewhere in the display it shows a height profile, including max up and down of the route from the start location.

          • higherstandard

            “Personally I live 85m above the current sealevel just over the hill from the Queen Street Inlet. I already adapted above the highest known sealevel rise. Such is my faith in humans ability to understand.”

            You and I’ll be long gone before any of the current Auckland beaches have disappeared.

            • lprent

              Possibly. I’m about to turn 60. That still leaves a potential long period when I would be around.

              But consider this.

              The estimates for sealevel rise from the IPCC are acknowledged to be conservative as hell. The reason is obvious. As a species we simply haven’t recorded large ice melts. The physics for it in a chaotic climate system are poorly understood.

              But everything that has been observed in the last 50 years has indicated that once the change starts in earnest, it operates exponentially and becomes very fast at the water state change.

              That fits with what can be seen in the geological record. And what we see in Greenland and the Antarticia Peninsula.

              Just at present, the only thing maintaining the antartica fridge are some wind currents and the circum antartic currents. Bit look like they are starting to change fast.

        • RedLogix

          It is serving a purpose; maintaining the pretense the sea won’t inevitably reclaim the whole of ChCh.


          • Dennis Frank

            I know! Regenerate should report that the solution is to build a wall – a sea-wall. Works for the Dutch, eh? They could recommend hiring Trump as consultant.

            • Incognito

              As far as I know there are no faults running through the Netherlands but they do suffer earthquakes in the North due to natural gas extraction – man-made earthquakes.

        • Pingau

          Things at Regenerate seemed to fall apart last year. I wonder if there is some politicking going on. The East Lake people who wanted an enormous flat water lake in the middle of the red zone are pretty pissed off that Regen Chch said there proposal was not going to be included (for many, many, many good reasons).

      • Skunk Weed 3.1.3

        ChCh Eastern Suburbs are built on swamp land and tidal estuaries, if you are going to build houses, building or any infrastructure in that environment with the underlying soil conditions you have to have the correct designs and engineering ?

        It is commonsense IMHO ?

        Commonsense is missing these days especially with Local Body and Central Government Politicans ?

        • WeTheBleeple

          The potential for inobtrusive yet large scale aquaculture (whitebait, eel) in Christchurch seems enormous. I must get down there take an updated look.

          The idea is to build infrastructure that is easily replaced. Earthworks and wood structures. Use flood zones for production, not building…

          Ignore council, govt on climate change. Be smart like Iprent and sort yourself out in advance. Then you will be in a position to help others.

          • Pingau

            Hey WTB if you do come down to Christchurch you should check out the Avon Otakaro Network … an umbrella group for all the other groups with an interest in the red zone. There are many groups that would be happy to talk or maybe show you around (Greening the red zone is the group I’m involved with).

            Regenerate Christchurch also has heaps of reports and interactive maps etc on their website that are useful. They have done heaps of work but the pace has been unbearably slow and seems to have stalled.

            • greywarshark

              What I said in the 3.1. series Pingau. Was that anything like you have been planning?

              • Pingau

                Yes Greywarshark

                the first part is included in the draft plan – wetlands and ponds and so on as part of flood mitigation.

                House boats have been suggested as a possibility but personally I don’t think they should be allowed as a permanent feature as they still will require expensive infrastructure and will reduce public access. There is plenty of suitable land outside of the red zone and to the West and north. Also plenty of empty houses and empty sections in the east still in the ‘green zone’.

                There is the possibility of some propsed housing around the margins of the red zone which could be ok but I doubt that they would get insurance as the Insurance Council have said they won’t insure anything in the red zone. A tiny house group are trying to set up a site for a tiny house village but so far have met nothing but obstacles from the various authorities.

                The majority of people who responded to Regenerate Christchurch’s surveys want ecological restoration to be at the forefront but there seems to be resistance to actually having forested areas on the dryer land (as this land is the most coveted for various groups proposals – such as the Eden Project).

                From my point of view as an ex red-zoner, current neighbour and a past student of coastal science it would seem crazy to put any large infrastructure into the red zone – better to return the majority of it to native forest and wetlands with plenty of areas for ‘eco friendly’ activities such as community gardens, recreational activities and the like.

                • WeTheBleeple

                  I am most definitely interested. I just don’t want to be some outsider dick come in with ideas when people on the ground have been working so hard on all this.

                  But I would gladly join other groups and see how my skill set can help. Thank you for the name of some groups involved, I will see what I can find.

                  Loved your post BTW greywarshark, you are learning this stuff fast.

                  I reckon a tsunami slower/large rubbish filter would be smart. Bamboo plantings… Tide can get through but large rubbish is held up. Large rubbish kills a lot of people.

                  • KJT

                    One good thing about the two story mansions springing up all around our coastlines.

                    They act as a protective barrier, for the houses and land behind.

                    • WeTheBleeple

                      Hehe I see what you did there.

                      Unfortunately, that is the large rubbish I was talking about. Trees, boats, driftwood, houses…

                      Jeff Lawton went and examined sites and interviewed locals after the Indonesian Tsunami. The sites with coastal bamboo plantings had considerably less damage and debris. And some locals survived in the bamboo, hiding inside the stands, and sliding up and down it as the water surged. The bamboo was not moved by the Tsunami, while many other tree species were. If you’ve ever tried to remove a large clump with brute force you’d understand it is relatively indestructible. If you do need to get rid of it, cut and cover, job done.

                      Interestingly, NZ grows the strongest structural bamboo down south. The slower growth in colder climates is beneficial in that respect. It still grows plenty fast to be a very effective tool.

  4. Interesting article on the Pioneer Battalion in the Fish Wrap this morning, both my grandfathers fought with the Pioneer Battalion’s on Gallipoli and in the trenches in France & Belgium in WW1.

    After the slaughter on Gallipoli the NZ Armed Forces tried to preserve the Pioneer Battalion and kept them away from the fighting as much as possible as the New Zealand Government had been trying to rebuild the Maori Population after the losses of their people through the 1800’s through the Musket Wars/NZ Land Wars & the Land Confiscations by the Settlor Governments in the 1860’s.

    My grandfather fought with Dick Travis VC in the Otago Battalion’s in France & Belgium WW1, he was originally from Opotiki and went by the name of Dickson Savage, he was related to Pita Awatere one of the Ngati Porou leaders in WW2 Maori Battalion.


  5. WeTheBleeple 5

    Exceltium: Matthew Hooten’s Corporate Affairs.

    Rio Tinto, Fonterra, Sealord…

    Matthew spins for cash. Matthew slashes for cash. Name the bad juju you want seeing to Matthew will be there in a flash.

    From their own website:

    “Exceltium’s speciality is engaging with the political process, at central and local government level and right across the political spectrum, to assist clients in achieving their commercial objectives.”

    Matthew interferes with the political process on behalf of corporations. Matthew interferes with the governance of our country for fees.

    “Exceltium works with businesses to establish and maintain their corporate reputations while continually researching the shifting political nuances that have potential impacts for our clients.”

    Now I hope we are clear what the role of this man is. He has no loyalty to NZ only to corporations that pay him. He is willing to interfere at every level he sees fit, despite the fact he has zero votes. His job is to whitewash the image of our worst exploitative offenders.

    He’s the guy who cleans up the bodies then re-rents out the flat. ‘Fresh Paint!’.

    The guy takes a lot of effort to rubbish everyone and everything left with some thin veneer of civility prelude. But it’s the same shit for many years. He gets paid for opinion a lot but he’s rarely got a clue.

    Here he is 2018 pre election on the greens

    “And things may soon get worse. If Davidson’s True Green takeover succeeds this weekend, the party could find itself in competition for the genuine environmentalist vote with a reincarnated TOP, perhaps as early as next week. Don’t rule out a split.”

    Ah well, expert, try again.

    On whether his PR firm is in conflict with his public exposure as a ‘journo’ (opinion writer).

    ““The benefits of it are that my name is known. So that if I call a Beehive staffer or a business person they know who they’re talking to.”

    That’s right. He uses his profile to advantage, in turn advantaging corporate entities in their relations with government.

    Methinks this bloke is absolutely compromised and dishonest. A recovering addict/alcoholic who digs at every opportunity does not ring true at all. He’s not done any (real) accounting for his own BS instead working to blame the (left of) the world for what a useless piece of shit he actually is. Work ethic…

    “So it was great for the first couple of weeks you got to work about 10, office morning tea, out for a boozy lunch, back to the office at four to check out, right? But it got a bit much so I booked a one-way ticket to Mumbai. I backpacked through India and China and Mongolia and Sri Lanka for about a year and then ran out of money and went back for a year in Wellington to work for Lockwood, who [had become] trade minister.”

    “His month in Mongolia came to a fruition of sorts more than two decades later. After a series of return visits, including to advise on the formation of the Mongolian Green Party and “to look at a mad idea to set up a sheep farm to supply the Saudi market””

    “and so began Exceltium. Given what – and who – Hooton knew of New Zealand politics and media, it seemed “a reasonably easy way to earn money”.

    • Rosemary McDonald 5.1

      ” His job is to whitewash the image of our worst exploitative offenders.

      He’s the guy who cleans up the bodies then re-rents out the flat. ‘Fresh Paint!’.”

      Brilliant! That’d be a most suitable epitaph, when the time comes.

  6. Dennis Frank 6

    BBC Science Correspondent reports on “the last forests of Antarctica”. Read the report to discover they were actually shrubs!

    “Prof Jane Francis, the director of the British Antarctic Survey, pulled her fossilised shrub material from rocks just 500km from the South Pole. “These are twigs similar to southern beech,” she told BBC News. “I like to call them the remnants of the last forests of Antarctica.” Fancy that! So she did. Extremely fanciful…

    “Scramble across exposed rocks in the middle of Antarctica and it’s possible to find the mummified twigs of shrubs that grew on the continent some three to five million years ago. This plant material isn’t much to look at, but scientists say it should serve as a warning to the world about where climate change could take us if carbon emissions go unchecked. The time period is an epoch geologists call the Pliocene, 2.6-5.3 million years ago.”

    “It was marked by temperatures that were significantly warmer than today, perhaps by 2-3 degrees globally.” https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-47806440

    “What’s really significant, though, is that the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere was very similar to what it is today – at around 400 CO2 molecules for every million molecules of air. Indeed, the Pliocene was the last time in Earth history that the air carried this same concentration of the greenhouse gas. And it tells you where we’re heading if we don’t get serious about addressing the climate problem, cautions Prof Martin Siegert from the Grantham Institute at Imperial College London.”

    “Prof Siegert was among a group of scientists meeting in London on Wednesday to discuss the climate lessons from the Pliocene.” Since the process of science is research & investigation, we ought not to expect the meeting to produce a conclusion of general relevance. Nonethless, good to know they have converged on the right target period. In geological terms, relatively recent, just prior to the ice-ages of the Pleistocene era. Same CO2, plus where average global temperature will arrive later this century too, and they are still ascertaining if the sea-level was 10m or 20m higher.

    • CLEANGREEN 6.1


      You missed the point here,

      Although your evidence submitted, (we are not confident as to the accuracy) say that the CO2 levels were ‘about the same levels that they are today’ – but you didn’t include that the global population was just a fraction of what is is today.
      So many people willl die today compared to the number that perished then.

      • Dennis Frank 6.1.1

        Most people that end up dying from climate change will probably remain unable to see it coming, eh? Actually there were no humans in the Pliocene. The species originated in evolutionary branching of our ancestor primates much more recently.

        “Fossils attributed to H. sapiens, along with stone tools, dated to approximately 300,000 years ago, found at Jebel Irhoud, Morocco yield the earliest fossil evidence for anatomically modern Homo sapiens.”

        • Poission

          The pliocene which had co2 levels around the same as now,a warmer climate and highly likely a limited ozone layer due to a number of nearby supernova.


          Lucy and her daughters stood on their hind legs reducing water loss and increasing the surface area availability to evaporative cooling.

          At the same time the increased mutation due to cosmic radiation in mammals such as lucy like species (with its trial and failure due to cancer) may have been a precursor in evolutionary selection.


        • cleangreen

          Denis; – exactly right,

          But the ‘naysayers’ cling on to the idea that climate change has occurred multiple times during human existence.

          So I agree, – we have never seen the ‘climate change so rapidly’ during our very short over populated homo-sapien existence.

          We homo-sapiens are in for a holocaust we have never seen before.

    • lprent 6.2

      Yep. But you did note that this was in East Antarticia. In other words in the heart of the fridge.

      I am inspired by your ability to ignore the significant parts of an article.

      As near as I can figure out, when confirmed, that will mean that the previous paleo climate models of the fridge are going to be out by at least an order of magnitude in their speed of response to climate change.

      It means that there was widely available liquid water there only a few million years ago – at a time when our models would indicate that only ice should have been there.

      • Dennis Frank 6.2.1

        Well, I do have a physics grad perspective. Plus I’ve always been a sceptic. Plus I know the science of complexity has thrown traditional scientific thinking into question (in relation to natural systems).

        So the variability or stability of climate in Antarctica, or any part of it, is a topic I would leave to experts who have studied it. Any temporal or spatial generalisations are likely to be fraught with error!

        I agree that the plant life implies a liquid ecosystem in that region (unless the plants were like those in deserts which live without rain most of their lives). I did the first year of geology in 1970 as part of my degree & am also aware that the ice caps have come & gone often in geological time, plus there’s the separate shifts of the spin & magnetic poles at various times as well…

        • RedLogix

          FWIW here is a link to an article I originally wrote 10 years ago for this site:


          • Dennis Frank

            The bit that interested me most: “Over the last 3 million years, the Earth’s climate has undergone at least 60 naturally driven Ice Age cycles, each accompanied by major changes in sea level.”

            In my memory, it was a couple of dozen or so – obviously research has proceeded apace since 1970. Also, your report confirms an ice-free Antarctica during the Pleistocene inter-glacials. That suggests a scenario that today’s college kids will have to factor in – there’s a good chance they will experience another interglacial before they die of old age, I suspect! They may even cruise down there at summertime, in their arks…

        • lprent

          There was a decline in the ice sheet during the Pliocene. The conventional wisdom based on sedimentation was that the Ross sea was clear of sea-ice and parts of the coast were like the vegetation on the antarctic peninsula was 50 years ago (and still is as far as I can tell). That is to say – some sturdy grasses that don’t require much free water and grow in ‘better’ conditions. There are no trees and no shrubs and no ‘woody’ plants.

          What this does is to throw a rock into that.

          That is because woody plants require some frequent doses of free water to survive even at minimal levels throughout the year. They can’t do what grasses do, which is to retreat to hiatus in the root systems. To get any kind of woody plant life – even a shrub – to grow there implies that there wasn’t the continuous deep freeze that we currently have in the ‘warm’ areas of Antarctica even now. At 500km from the pole, it was for a time at similar greenhouse gas levels it was capable of growing the types of shrubs that won’t currently grow within 20 odd degrees latitude of the pole.

          The problem is that past about 800kya we’re peering through some pretty thick and distorted glass. To be precise we’re looking mostly at seabed sediments and in particular O16/18 levels to infer temperatures in the surface waters around Antarctica, and sedimentary types/thicknesses for erosion. Virtually everything else measurable on land gets wiped clean over time by ice movements.

          When they figure out a reliable date on that (within a thousand years or so), it will provide a rough calibration point for other data in an area of the world that has few others. That will shift the very conservative IPCC ice wastage calculations by a lot. It will all be in the wrong direction

          • Dennis Frank

            Very interesting! Sounds like you have a biological perspective on the situation that climate scientists probably don’t, Lynn. Makes me wonder if the IPCC even has input from that perspective. You know how over-specialisation has been the academic norm since the 19th century, eh?

            The multi-disciplinary crowd-sourcing of expertise seems necessary for humanity to engage climate change most effectively. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if silo-thinking had prevented that happening in the recruitment processes that originally established the IPCC.

            As regards the effect of this discovery on IPCC projections, might be a good idea to contact any kiwi member and send them your rationale for re-evaluating the reliability – even if only to alert them of potential relevance in respect of the eventual dating confirmation.

  7. RedLogix 7

    I’m going to make a bit of a retraction here. Last week there was a short thread on Boeing’s 737MAX problems. On it I expressed the view that it would be fixed and life would go on.

    As a controls engineer I’ve been drawn to this topic, and while aviation has it’s own jargon, the fundamentals are the same everywhere. It’s now clear the new engines and their location has fundamentally unbalanced the original 737 design. MCAS was a software fix for a hardware problem, and 40 yrs of experience tells me this is always a bad idea.

    The details available around MCAS reveal an alarming lack of redundancy for such a critical system. What’s more it’s now apparent that the system can easily put the plane into scenarios that cannot be manually recovered from.

    I’m no longer confident there is an acceptable software fix for this. Boeing and the FAA do indeed have a big headache. It’s even possible the 737MAX in it’s current form will never fly again.

    • mpledger 7.1

      From only a little I read – the FAA got Boeing to do a whole lot of safety checks that should have been done by a neutral observer – at worst – and the FAA – at best – . But that’s what happens when you rip money out of a regulator – MAGA /sarc.

      • Andre 7.1.1

        That MAGA shot is a little unfair. Development and certification pretty much all happened before Dunning-Kruger Don defiled the Oval Office.

        FWIW, I don’t share Red’s pessimism about the future for the 737 MAX series. From what I’ve seen, it was a combo of crap unreliable angle-of-attack sensors, flawed software, bad operator interface choices, and shitty money-grubbing corporate culture.

        Yes, the choice to work around around the flight characteristics problems introduced by the larger heavier engines was way sub-optimal compared to biting the bullet and designing a new series of planes with a clean sheet approach. But there’s plenty of precedent for using software to manage problem characteristics so I don’t see that as a fatal flaw.

        • RedLogix

          The problem with this one is that MCAS can wind on so much trim that even when the pilot disables it, if the speed is over 250 knots the forces on the control surfaces are now too high to manually reset. This seems to have been the case in Ethiopia.

          Simulator testing has revealed that even below 250 knots it required both pilots to work together in a complex ‘roller coaster’ sequence to recover. The non-accident Lion air incident had a third jump seat pilot who caught the scenario in time before it developed too far. The next flight was not so lucky.

          But there’s plenty of precedent for using software to manage problem characteristics

          Military aircraft definitely; most of them can’t get off the ground without their automation these days. But in the commercial world the designs are meant to be a lot more docile and resilient than this. I agree there is a lot of software that does a great job in optimising flight operations; but this time it’s my gut feeling Boeing has dug a rather deep hole for themselves here; they discovered an nasty expensive characteristic and tried to cover it up with a cheap nasty software fix.


      • greywarshark 7.1.2

        Leave it to business – they know better and are more efficient than theory-trained government regulators reading from a book of rules with no idea of commercial imperatives or long-term experience.

        Would that be the summary of thinking enabling such lax oversight? We have our own example of this dangerous and wilful neglect of responsibility by authorities. It is similar to the thinking that resulted in the collapse of the CTV building.



        And interesting info and before and after pictures of CTV building for those who are interested to refresh your memory and get an objective view.

        • KJT

          Sometimes that is true.
          Maritime New Zealand, recruiting from taxi drivers and ex cops, for example.

          But. No oversight, or compromised oversight, is worse.

          One of the hidden costs of privatisation is the oversight, regulation and control needed to keep commercial companies, honest. Especially when management incentives are totally focused on short term, “share holder return”, to the exclusion of all else.

    • One Two 7.2

      The action taken to ground the entire global fleet, was a clear indication there was a serious issue…not of the software fix type to remediate…

      That said, if it was a software related issue, there would have been a considerable testing schedule required in the simulators and in aircraft before air worthiness certification would have been granted…

      • RedLogix 7.2.1

        there would have been a considerable testing schedule required in the simulators and in aircraft before air worthiness certification would have been granted…

        That’s one of the disturbing problems, the FAA, lacking in-house expertise, handed off almost all the certification process to Boeing itself.

        It looks like the MCAS system was designed and programmed by an intern. No error checking, no plausibility checks – just believe the sensor! One of the hardest things about automation programming is allowing for a failed sensor and this system arrogantly blames the sensor, or the pilot, or their ‘training’, while plunging the plane into the ground. If this is what they can get wrong, what else don’t we know about?

        Worse still it looks like Boeing have rolled back on the ‘software patch’ they were going to implement last week.

        I’m the exact opposite of a nervous flyer, but right now I’d be very reluctant to set foot in a MAX. Andre may be right, maybe I’m being pessimistic, maybe there will be an engineering path out of this … but it’s a tough audience they now have to convince.

        • One Two

          I’ve not been following the issues with the 737-MAX too closely, which I usually would be. So thanks for posting updates regarding some of the issues with build, test and the regulator limitations…

          I followed the A380 and B787 production issues closely, and when the second 737-MAX crash occurred my immediate sense was it would be something very serious…

          737-300 was the previous model in the product line to suffer repeat catastrophic malfunctions… I also followed those incidents…

          It is unsurprising to hear the FAA has become similar to the FDA for example, who no longer perform any in-house testing of most pharmaceutical products, and zero in-house testing of biological products. Testing was outsourced to the manufacturers over the past two decades…

          I’ll not make any comment about the future continuation of 737-MAX except to say that you could very well be correct. It may never fly again…

          What is certain, is that Boeing will do whatever they can to ensure current and future losses on the aircraft are ‘minimized’….getting it back in the air will be the priority…and with a seemingly compromised FAA…the outcomes from this point could become any which way…

        • Andre

          Looks like the angle of attack sensors are little more than little weathervanes stuck to the side of the nose just below the cockpit windows. Hell, a strike from a dung beetle might be enough to take one out (those little fuckers are about as solid as half a golf ball). That seems an awfully crude basis for a system that can grab control of the whole plane.

          Only two of them, so one going off-kilter screws the system? If there were three or four, there would be at least be a majority opinion. Then there’s all the other sources of confirmatory info that could be put together to derive an estimated angle of attack, such as gyros for attitude, ground speed etc. And FFS, making warning info of possible system malfunctions an $80k optional extra???

          It doesn’t sound like the plane is particular difficult or dangerous to fly without the MCAS, but it’s tendency to pitch up would be a bit of a pain in the ass. So the MCAS was an “added enhancement” to smooth over the less than optimal characteristic, rather than something necessary for flight safety.

          So the fact that something like this was so badly fucked up really does raise the question of what else was screwed up. Even if the MCAS system by itself has a quick simple fix, extended grounding to fully check out all the other systems really seems the appropriate thing.

          • RedLogix

            Overall while I’m more pessimistic than you are, your argument isn’t out of the park either. Still I’d quibble on this one point:

            but it’s tendency to pitch up would be a bit of a pain in the ass.

            All planes with underslung engines have this characteristic. However the 737 was designed for much smaller diameter engines and is quite low to the ground. The new generation bypass engines are bigger in diameter and didn’t fit, so they had to be moved forward and upward. This means the pitch up turning arm has increased and the engines have more thrust, making the problem much worse.

            As a result it’s now quite easy to get the plane into a hard to recover stall during climb out, and not much altitude to play with. So they came up with MCAS to get the FAA to certify it, but then didn’t tell the FAA just how much trim it needed to correct the problem.

            Which suggests the pitchup issue was a fair bit worse than anyone wanted to say in the open.

            Interesting linky to the 737NSA


            • Andre

              Thanks for that link. The MCAS section was particularly interesting. Reading a little bit between the lines, it seems the pitch-up issue is an aerodynamic interaction at high angle of attack between the engine nacelle and wing that doesn’t happen on other planes with more distance between the engine and wing and the engines further back.

              This new location and larger size of nacelle cause the vortex flow off the nacelle body to produce lift at high AoA. As the nacelle is ahead of the C of G, this lift causes a slight pitch-up effect

              I’m somewhat curious why the modifications for the MAX didn’t include simply making the landing gear taller. The original reason from back in the 60s that the plane was so low to the ground was so the cargo hold could be loaded by staff standing directly on the ground at airports that didn’t have all the gear, but that’s no longer a significant concern. edit: I’ll take a guess it was because the new pitch-up issue wasn’t discovered until first flight, by which time it was considered too late for a major re-engineer so a bodge fix was chosen instead.

              • Graeme

                The 737 landing gear can’t be made taller because the legs are too close together. To make the gear taller would have required a complete redesign of the wing moving the gear further apart, and full recertification, so a new airplane.

                So Boeing did a bodge cubed and ended up where they are now.

                • Andre

                  On further research, it seems they did lengthen the nose gear by 8 inches. Which allowed them to increase the fan diameter another inch or two.

                  For the MAX10 and its longer fuselage it seems they came up with a mechanism for the main landing gear that lengthens it to lift the fuselage and reduce tailstrikes on takeoff. That all fits within the same wheel well and other landing gear and wing box geometry as the rest of the MAX series. So they probably could have come up with something that fit within the existing constraints if they really wanted to.

                  I can quite easily picture a meeting to solve the pitch-up problem where longer landing gear plus engine re-position, the MCAS system, and a bunch of other possibles were put on the table and the MCAS bodge chosen as the cheapest, quickest and easiest.

                  • Graeme

                    All the “enhancements” in the Max are still tweaking a design that’s pushing 50 years old, was originally for 100 pax and now is carrying 200 through stretches and more power. Eventually the design reaches it’s limit.

                    Probably more interesting would be the meeting where it was decided to further extend the 737’s life through the Max program rather than a clean sheet design, and the trade offs made between profit and safety. If even safety was a consideration.

                    • Andre

                      The Vox piece below makes it seem likely that meeting didn’t really consider safety or engineering, it was likely a straight commercial fear of losing too much customer base to the A320neo.

                      It’s not entirely clear what happened, but, reading between the lines, it seems that in talking to its customers Boeing reached the conclusion that airlines would not wait for them. Some critical mass of carriers (American Airlines seems to have been particularly influential) was credible enough in its threat to switch to Airbus equipment that Boeing decided it needed to offer 737 buyers a Boeing solution sooner rather than later.


                    • Graeme

                      Boeing may be regretting that decision now. It will be interesting to see if they can recover any of the ground they would have lost with a new design now the Max has gone bad in a very catastrophic and public way.

                      Boeing don’t just have to get the airplane back in the air, they’ve got to get the public back into the airplane. That might be a lot harder than getting the airplane flying again, and will affect all their current products.

          • One Two

            Cheers Andre and RL for the aero engineering comments etc on the 737-MAX situation…

            Appreciate reading your views on it….

          • Macro

            There is another problem wrt the angle of attack sensors etc. Boeing had as an optional extra a warning light – at $80,000 a pop. So naturally economy airlines chose not to have included. Neither of the crashed aircraft had this warning light included.
            Boeing are now going to install this warning light on all aircraft as standard equipment.
            An excellent article on the topic is here:

            The emerging 737 Max scandal, explained
            It’s more than bad software.

        • ianmac

          On the news last night it showed how to flick two switches to off on the Max which cancelled the automatic dive/stall connections. The item said that the pilot switched to off- but strangely switched on again and crashed.

          • KJT

            I understand after the software caused the vertical stabiliser to overtrim, the conflicting aerodynamic loads on that, and the vertical rudder, the moveable smaller flaps behind the stabiliser, made a manual fix very difficult. The manual trim wheel became too hard to turn. Fighting both the aerodynamic forces, and the electric screw actuator. It seems, from the initial report, when the manual trim was impossible, switching, the software back on, was simply a last ditch attempt to solve the issue.

            The fix. Turning off the ‘fly by wire’ software and flying in pitch up and down movements, to reduce the loading enough for manual trimming, is not something pilots really want to do at low altitude.

            Doesn’t seem the light was a real solution. And the plane was sold as so similar to previous models, that full pilot new aircraft simulator training was not required.

            Awaiting more reports, but doesn’t look good for Boeing.

        • greywarshark

          You could be in a Nevil Shute No Highway situation RL. That book showed what a dilemma safety fears can start.

    • WeTheBleeple 7.3

      Thanks for the retraction. I (and I’m sure plenty of others) really appreciated hearing from someone who knows about this stuff.

      Credit where due:

      Thanks for the posts about aviation and engineering too. They’re enlightening, interesting and useful to the conversation.

      • RedLogix 7.3.1

        Whatever happens the opinion I’m reading out there that this will be a tipping point for the whole industry. Boeing do have a New Small Aircraft (NSA) program to replace the 737, but the question is going to be how the company is going to survive in this hugely important part of the market until it’s ready. And rushing yet another brand new plane won’t be smart either.

        Even Airbus’s hugely successful A320/neo is 30 years old and cannot last forever.

        There is real pressure on the industry to reduce carbon emissions, while demand continues to grow, and pilots are in short supply. Yet the sheer scale of the industry and cost of change is now a massive headache.

        At then beyond this they have to get to a whole new generation of Liquid Hydrogen fueled aircraft, in order to get to carbon zero. And that comes with another whole bunch of monkeys.


    WTF; – When did this begin by which ‘Government’ as if it begun with the ‘sellout national Government’ then Labour coalition swiftly needs to stop this ‘sellout of our precious water.’?????


    NZ Government Secretly Funded Water Bottling Companies
    Thursday, 4 April 2019, 1:37 pm
    Press Release: Aotearoa Water Action
    Media release 4 April 2019
    New Zealand Government Secretly Funded Water Bottling Companies
    New Zealand Trade and Enterprise (NZTE) has spent hundreds of thousands of dollars of tax payer money to fund two water bottling companies but has refused to release the names or locations of the companies involved or what exactly the money was given to them for. It has confirmed one company is foreign owned.
    Documents obtained by Aotearoa Water Action (AWA) under the Official Information Act also reveal that NZTE invited water bottling company Nongfu to visit New Zealand in April 2015. The company is seeking to significantly expand the existing Otakiri Spring bottling plant in the Bay of Plenty with strong public opposition. Documents out of Minister Parker’s Office state that Nongfu Spring’s project with Otakiri Spring is in the NZTE investment pipeline as a ‘significant project’.
    Sustainable Otakiri, a neighbourhood group challenging the resource consent, is seeking to block the 16,800m2 plant which will take up to 1,100,000m3 of local water per year, discharge up to 450m3 of phosphorus-rich process water per day into a nearby stream and put another 202 truck and trailer units daily on the already dangerous road to Tauranga.
    “It’s a shock to learn that Nongfu may have potentially been funded by the taxpayer to take our water,” says Maureen Fraser of Sustainable Otakiri. “It’s clear that the government and our local council have been pushing this deal and the industry for years and it’s all been done in the shadows. The lack of transparency around this is a big concern. We feel let down – by the government, Minister Sage and our local council.”

    She says it is unbelievable that the government is willing to fund multi-million dollar water bottling companies yet has left community group Sustainable Otakiri to crowdfund its Environment Court appeal against a subsidiary of Nongfu after the Government’s Environmental Legal Assistance Fund (ELA) declined its application making it virtually impossible for the community to challenge the consents.
    Peter Richardson of Aotearoa Water Action (AWA) says the Resource Management Act was designed to have public participation as a check and balance but the financial obstacles for people wanting to oppose decisions is prohibitive leaving communities vulnerable. AWA has set up a PledgeMe campaign to help assist Sustainable Otakiri’s appeal.
    “If the Ministry won’t create good law to manage water allocation, won’t adequately oversee the implementation of the Act by local councils and won’t fund public participation then the necessary safeguards, checks and balances aren’t there and our environment is at risk.”

    • WeTheBleeple 8.1

      There were business investor types getting very excited about bottling plants in general when Key was on board. I was trying to invest in something better than the banks and was examining shorting stocks before the last crash. I got told 20% (estimate) was not good money, that hundreds of percent profit was being obtained easily…

      Energy drinks, soft drinks, water.

      “V only costs a few cents to make” I was told excitedly.

      I paid a ‘professional’ to invest my money for me as they convinced me I was a financial idiot – then I lost all of it – it appears they were right.

      Crooks in charge. Seek and destroy.

  9. cleangreen 9

    Sorry I have now lower cased my name.

  10. Kay 10

    @TRP- I’m still catching up on the last few days here,was out in the sticks with no internet and didn’t feel overly deprived but very aware there was none to be had!.
    Anyway, I read your post on OM yesterday about your friend’s successful WINZ appointment and I’m so pleased to hear that. Mostly for your friend of course, but also because it’s another report in from another office about us being treated as human beings. I’d forgotten to add in an earlier reply to you that for many years an advocate was vital because of the vast difference in the way we were treated when there was an eyewitness. But after my own experience a couple of months ago with a major disability benefit review and no one to come along with me, I went in expecting the worse and got the fright of my life when for the first time in 10 years I was treated as a human being, given everything I was entitled to under current legislation, and even had an unsolicited food grant thrown in! I’m not scared having to do the paperwork to prove an upcoming rent increase (did I just say that??)

    I’m hearing anecdotal reports from others as well, so yes, there is definitely a culture change going on. What does concern me though, is it’s only because they’re under orders of the govt of the day to be nice, and a change of govt down the track- and it will happen eventually , always does in NZ- will order them back to the nastiness, and they will obey.

    • patricia bremner 10.1

      Kay, keep Jacinda and the Minister informed of your experiences. As a long time Labour member I was asked what I felt was needed by email. I explained long term disabled and permanently disabled people were struggling to get entitlements to the point they were ill or suicidal. Months later I got confirmation of changes, and to watch for future changes to assist in that area. Several people have confirmed what you say.
      A friend’s daughter who works at WINZ confirms the changes and says the work atmosphere is much warmer and inclusive. Long may it last.

      • Rosemary McDonald 10.1.1

        “I explained long term disabled and permanently disabled people were struggling to get entitlements to the point they were ill or suicidal.”

        I’m hoping you’ve been following the intense discussions on the End of Life Choice Bill thread. 😉

        TBH….when it comes to Ministry Of Health Disability Support Services the same old same old disappear down a bureaucratic rabbit hole insanity still applies.

        We have written…but to no avail.

        I guess the MOH are a bunch of harder nuts.

        • patricia bremner

          Yes Rosemary, and TBH I am not too impressed by the Minister. Awaiting the budget!!.

      • WeTheBleeple 10.1.2

        When I dealt with WINZ for gaps in the student year I left them under the impression I was recording every conversation. it wasn’t true but they sure pulled their heads in after that. It pays to keep all the correspondence and always give the illusion you have a lawyer on standby.

        That goes for all govt departments.

        Anecdotally I too have heard stories of kinder folks at WINZ. Be wary, the govt changes spots so do they.

    • Anne 11.1


      The suspicion arises that in 2014-2015, in some unspecified, possibly unlawful, and highly secretive way, the country’s national security apparatus was working hand-in-glove with senior elements within the police to silence and punish a couple of outspoken critics of the National-led 2008-2017 Coalition Government.

      If this proves to be correct then heads must roll.

      Having been through something similar in the late 1980s and early 1990s, I know the extent some people in high places will go in order to destroy the lives of their critics or as in my case… their wrongly accused critic. Then comes the cover-up, and the victim is left to pick up the pieces of their life and start all over again.

      It is appalling that it still continues in these supposedly enlightened times.

      • Anne 11.1.1

        Martyn Bradbury’s latest post is also worth a read :


        First sentence:

        Every major news outlet had Slater on speed dial and he won the Cannon Media award! So much venom is spat at Slater for what we now know about him – but how quick we are to forget how the vast majority of the NZ mainstream empowered him.

        So true.

        One of our illustrious writers (Michael King would come to mind if he was still with us) should write a book about the machinations and unlawful behaviour of the establishment’s political hierarchy and their hard right-wing enablers in the Public Service and the media from their beginnings in the Rogernome era through to 2017.

          • Anne

            Yes. Nicky Hager has written books about specific incidents and added together he has plenty of data at his fingertips – plus more if the truth be known.

            Now is the time to link them together and show how they played into the hands of a bunch of extreme right-wing arseholes who eventually came close to permanently damaging our democratic way of life where everybody once had a right to justice and fair play.

            For those under the age of 35 we had such a democracy once.

        • greywarshark

          Would you assist if a writer came forward Anne? You seem to remember a lot about the inside running of gummint.

          • Anne

            I have some knowledge and experience from the 1980s and 90s that I would be happy to pass on to a reputable journalist should one choose to write such a book.

      • OnceWasTim 11.1.2

        Old boys networks have existed for a long long time @ Anne (as I think you know and have experienced).
        The thing that’s different in the age of the neo-liberal religion is that it has all become normalised – common practice almost, especially over the past decade or so.
        Ethics, and even the idea of public SERVICE takes a back seat in an age of individualism, minimalist government, and all that buzz.
        Often, the only way public servants (at senior level at least – CEOs et al) do the right thing is when they see the possibility/probability of being held to account or being embarrassed in some way. They rarely are

        It’s WHY in most employment cases or complaints against the service, they try to push settlements – the details of which must remain confidential.

        NEVER agree to a settlement that includes confidentiality agreements (even in Nicky Hager’s case) – it gives them licence to carry on regardless.
        It’s also why it’s going to be interesting to see just what happens with the upcoming inquiry into the actions/lack of actions by Police/security agencies/Customs& Immigration, AND/OR what happens to the likes of Casson.

        Codes of Conduct and all that stuff is meaningless unless there is some sort of serious sanction when they’re breached. It’s why all that ‘Master of the Universe’ culture has been allowed to thrive in the PS in recent times rather than simply being confined to the private corporate world.

        • Anne

          The important factor which is not readily understood unless a person had direct experience (which I did in the 80s and part of the 90s) is: the combination of the old boys networks and neoliberalism enabled the rise of right-wing ideology to thrive and expand. For years it went virtually unnoticed by anyone including the police and I suspect the security agencies… but it was there.

          Cameron Slater and his band of pirates were one manifestation of it during the Key government years but, as you say, the Public Service was infiltrated too and that is where the most damage was wrought as we all now know.

          I only hope that the Ardern government can remove all vestiges of the ideology from the government services and provide incentives for the private sector to do the same.

          • OnceWasTim

            FYI, Ross Meurant has an interesting take on it all at TDB:


            • Anne

              He meanders on a bit but I certainly agree with his summation of the police and he should know. Far too many of them have acted – or not acted as the case may be – on subjective conclusions. Hence the silly obsession they had with animal rights groups, Greenpeace activists, peace campaigners and conservationists in previous decades. And of course there was much racism among the ranks in the past although they have made laudable efforts in recent years to stamp it out.

  11. Rosemary McDonald 12

    Poor old Julie Anne Genter got the hot griddle treatment from Tolley on Morning Report this morning.


    The appalling road toll deserves discussion, but I’m at a loss to understand how it is somehow the Government’s fault.

    • In Vino 12.1

      True, Rosemary. If alcohol is a factor it is definitely the previous Government’s fault, because it was the penny-pinching National Govt (trying to produce an artificial Budget Surplus and pretend to be ‘good managers of the economy) that underfunded the Police, causing them to reduce the number of alcohol checkpoints.
      But when will we be told to what extent alcohol is involved compared to earlier years?

  12. Dennis Frank 13

    Talk about a country that doesn’t exist, you won’t get punished – unless you’re a politician! “Jewish Councilman Who Said ‘Palestine Does Not Exist’ Loses Seat on Immigration Committee” https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/31/nyregion/kalman-yeger-israel-palestine.html

    “He had been unapologetic about his comments during a news conference on Thursday. “There is no state by that name. There is no place by that name. That’s a fact. I didn’t make it up, I didn’t invent it,” Mr. Yeger said on Thursday.”

    Telling the truth can be seen as hate speech though, eh? Politicians are just going to have to become better liars! 🙄

    • Gabby 13.1

      You reckon there’s no place by that name franko?

      • Dennis Frank 13.1.1

        I neither believe in it nor disbelieve. I haven’t gone to check whether it is a real place or not. History tells us it was there prior to the re-creation of Israel. Wikipedia tells us it’s a “de jure state, in that it is recognised as being the legitimate government of a territory over which it has no actual control”.

        Sounds rather imaginary, eh? What do you think? “The ontological status of the state has been the subject of debate, especially, whether or not the state, being an object that no one can see, taste, touch, or otherwise detect, actually exists.”

        Perhaps the experts are still trying to figure it out? Reminds me of the Schrodinger’s Cat theory in physics, in which the cat exists in a state between life & death until you open the box & take a look. But as regards Palestine, I have a hunch that anyone who goes there gets told that it does exist by the Palestinians, that it doesn’t exist, by the Israelis, and ends up none the wiser…

  13. Dennis Frank 14

    Interesting what you find if you google jewish Palestinians! “This is a story of what may be one of the best-kept secrets in history – one that could, in time, heal the terrible rift that has torn the Land of Israel asunder.” https://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Features/The-lost-Palestinian-Jews

    “After years of research, Misinai says that he can declare with certainty that nearly 90 percent of all Palestinians are descended from the Jews. “And what’s more, about half of them know it,” he says. Not only that, many Palestinians retain Jewish customs, including mourning rituals, lighting Shabbat or memorial candles and even wearing tefillin. While the common wisdom among many Israelis is that the group that calls itself “Palestinian” is a motley collection of Arabs from various parts of the Middle East who immigrated to the Land of Israel following the employment opportunities provided by Jews, Misinai says that the vast majority of today’s Palestinians are descended from the remnants of Jewish families who managed to avoid being deported over the past 2,000 years, or returned to their lands after they were exiled, as the Jews in the Holy Land suffered blow after blow – from the Roman destruction of the Temple to the Crusades to famine, poverty and war throughout the Middle Ages.”

    “One thing many were unable to avoid, however, was converting to Islam – a forced conversion that never really “took,” done more out of fear than conviction. Misinai has made it his mission to spread the word among Palestinians, giving them the opportunity to retrieve their lost heritage. And not just introduce them to their roots; according to Misinai, the reintegration of what he calls the “descendants of Israel” with the Jewish people is the best – perhaps the only – way to solve the seemingly endless Middle East crisis.”

    “Despite what some may be thinking, Misinai is not a nut. In fact, he is a hi-tech entrepreneur, perhaps the first in Israel’s history. While the kids from ICQ and Google were still in diapers, in the early 1980s Misinai was building Sapiens into a world-class application developer, focusing on the insurance industry. All those rule-based, object-oriented applications we use every day; it was Misinai who invented the concept, and the product, winning the Rothschild Award for industrial development in the field of software in 1992. Several years afterward, he retired from the hi-tech business to return to his first love – researching the history of the Land of Israel.”

    • Dennis Frank 14.1

      “Edward Wadie Said was a professor of literature at Columbia University, a public intellectual, and a founder of the academic field of postcolonial studies. A Palestinian American born in Mandatory Palestine, he was a citizen of the United States by way of his father, a U.S. Army veteran.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Said

      “As a public intellectual, Said was a controversial member of the Palestinian National Council, because he publicly criticized Israel and the Arab countries, especially the political and cultural policies of Muslim régimes who acted against the national interests of their peoples. Said advocated the establishment of a Palestinian state to ensure equal political and human rights for the Palestinians in Israel, including the right of return to the homeland. He defined his oppositional relation with the status quo as the remit of the public intellectual who has “to sift, to judge, to criticize, to choose, so that choice and agency return to the individual” man and woman.”

      “Arabic, my native language, and English, my school language, were inextricably mixed: I have never known which was my first language, and have felt fully at home in neither, although I dream in both. Every time I speak an English sentence, I find myself echoing it in Arabic, and vice versa.” Between Worlds, Reflections on Exile and Other Essays (2002)

      “His office at Columbia University was fire-bombed.” That’s according to Stephen Chan, Professor of International Relations at London University. Chan was a prominent activist student politician at the University of Auckland. When I was a bit-player in the SRC in 1970, he was one of the leaders. He quotes Said, from a 2004 interview: “I’m the last Jewish intellectual… I’m a Jewish-Palestinian.” [From The End of Certainty: Towards a New Internationalism, 2009]

  14. Observer Tokoroa 15

    DNA gone Bad.

    With the lethal Power of One – standing in the Dock today, having slaughtered 50 persons and attempted to murder some 30 more – we could be feeling very subdued and upset to the core.

    But we must not allow the Bastards of this Nation to gain the upper hand ever again.

    We must curtail them daily and nightly, monthly and yearly, until they depart with their monstrous baggage from us – and this Planet.

    For they never ever deserved to be labeled as Homo Sapiens. They never deserved to be labeled as New Zealanders. They were never wise men or women. They were and still are non human DNA gone bad.

    With them we must remove the Drug Dealers – urgently.
    Then too the people who promote Suicide and Cowardice – urgently.
    Those who promote Alcohol but not its Hazards – for it kills – urgently
    Marijuana is a similar hazard – kills the wit of the brain – urgently.
    Each of these promoters are guilty of outrageous mental disease, destroying the Presence of Life itself.

    More urgently still, is the banning of any Vestige of Gangs. They must be removed penniless immediately. Not just because they decided to Thieve and not do Honest work, but because they openly promote Murder. They drag hundreds of IQ slow people downhill day and night. Shame shame shame.

    Even more important is, that we should not allow Media to continuously promote National Greed, and Advertisements – whilst there is a huge distance between great Wealth and outrageous Poverty and unfairness.

    Political parties must only be allowed to Work towards fairness and equality. Not one thing Less nor one thing more.

    Money Parties and their craven Monsters Hooten, John Key, Corporates , and Simon and Frau Bennett- are yesterday’s misadventure. Climate is in!

  15. alwyn 16

    Well. Sam Neill has certainly found a very easy way for him to display his true Socialist characteristics and virtue-signal in a very cheap way, at least for him.
    Demolish the old Christchurch Cathedral. Build an “Inter-faith” centre says Sam.
    This will show the Islamic community the depth of our sympathy for them.
    How very convenient for Sam.
    He doesn’t live in Christchurch.
    He doesn’t own the Cathedral and, as far as I am aware has no connection to the Anglican Church.
    But the people of Christchurch and the members of the Anglican Church are meant to pay, in all ways, for Sam’s pretensions.

    How about Sam does something himself, rather than demand that other people should do so?
    I can think of one very simple action he could take on his own that would, I should think, greatly please the members of the Muslim faith in New Zealand. And he can do it immediately without requiring anyone else to agree to, or pay for, it.
    The Islamic faith disapproves of drinking alcohol.
    Sam owns a vineyard, or vineyards, in Central Otago. From the grapes he produces alcoholic beverages. They are quite good I am told, although very expensive.
    Right Oh Sam. Show us you are willing to sacrifice to show your sympathy to our Islamic residents.
    Rip out all your vines.
    Dump all the booze you currently have in stock.
    Turn the land into an “inter-faith” centre.
    You could start doing the first 2 activities today. No permission or help needed from anyone else. Show the depth of your feelings by sacrificing something YOU value.

    Come on Sam. JUST DO IT.

    Otherwise why don’t you just stop pretending you care?

    • Drowsy M. Kram 16.1

      How about Sam does something himself, rather than demand that other people should do so?

      Alwyn, I read the Sam Neill opinion piece you linked to and couldn’t identify any “demand”. Ideas, suggestions, preferences, calls – yes, but no demand.

      Neill joins former Christchurch man and Barclays Capital vice-chairman Euan Harkness, and professor of history at the University of Canterbury, Katie Pickles, in calling for a new interfaith hub to be built in Cathedral Square.

      Why all the ‘spin and stir’? Is it just because you suspect Sam’s a dreaded ‘Chardonnay socialist? Quelle horreur !

      Come on Sam. JUST DO IT.” – now that’s a demand, so right back at yah – how ironic.

      Meanwhile: “Actors Sam Neil and Oscar Kightley are among the well-wishers at Ponsonby Mosque on Saturday [the 16th of March].


      • ianmac 16.1.1

        I visited a church in South Vietnam which was shared by Four Religions. It was a small church but favoured by locals. It was just South of Ho Chi Minh City on the delta. Worked OK so in view of the falling church worshippers it makes sense to build Interfaith churches.

    • Wensleydale 16.2

      What a pointless load of venom that was. “Pretending you care?” Really, Alwyn? I’m reasonably sure Sam Neill actually does care. Because he’s not a sour old vulture. Unlike you.

      • Drowsy M. Kram 16.2.1

        Rip out all your vines.” – Alwyn.

        “A sour old vulture” with a case of sour grapes – ha ha !

    • cleangreen 16.3

      Alwyn, I agree with your comment here. 16

  16. greywarshark 17

    To contribute to the ongoing help after the mosque shooting for traumatised people you could help with donations to the Christchurch Canterbury Hospital which has set up counselling so people can talk through their shock and grief and feel a bt better to carry on. Probably return visits will be needed and just knowing support is there would be a help.



  17. joe90 18

    In 2016 Bernie said he’d release his tax returns soon

    Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders sidestepped questions Thursday about when he will release his tax returns, with the Vermont independent hinting he could fulfill his six-week old pledge to make public 10 years of tax returns on April 15 — Tax Day.

    Yet, as quickly as Sanders suggested that, he appeared to backtrack and wouldn’t commit that he would release them then.


    • Drowsy M. Kram 18.1

      Bernie’s done it before – maybe give him a little more time?

      What to expect from Sanders’ later tax returns

      When Sanders decides to release more recent tax returns, the public will get a better sense of how typical 2014 was for his household from a tax perspective. According to other financial disclosures, the Sanders household’s income rose dramatically in the years since his last disclosed tax return, with book proceeds potentially adding to taxable income depending on whether Sanders donated them to charity.

      For now, though, Sanders has elected only to disclose this one return. Until he agrees to be more forthcoming, campaign watchers will have to use other sources to try to draw out information about the presidential candidate’s finances.


      • joe90 18.1.1

        He’s had close to three years to make good on his pledge[s].

        Has he something to hide?

        • Drowsy M. Kram

          Are you asking me? I don’t know. Do you?

          IMHO the increasing involvement of extremely weathy individuals (by NZ standards) in our political landscape is a negative trend. Jones, and more recently Dotcom, Craig and Morgan, have all had a go. Part of the ‘allure’ of Key was his personal wealth = a (financially) successful individual.

          In 2015 Bernie Sanders was ranked 77th (out of 100) in the Senate with an estimated net worth of $712,516.


          He’s very likely to be considerably wealthier now, which might tarnish his political ‘cred’, but I’m glad that he’s in the presidential candidate mix, if only to move the policies of the eventual candidate to the left.

  18. marty mars 19

    Authentic indeed – so awesome.

    “Ocasio-Cortez’s latest video, like much of her engagement on Twitter and Instagram, feels authentic to how a young person might actually use them. Previously she has used social media to peel back the curtain on the mundane inner workings of Congress that most people don’t understand or might take for granted, and her activity on Twitter has proven widely effective in both spreading her message and shutting down critics.”


    And this

    “When Ardern was asked by a journalist during a press conference in Hamilton on Thursday whether she had paid for the woman’s groceries, she said “yes”. When asked why, she replied; “Because she was a mum”.”


  19. Observer Tokoroa 21

    Well you won’t get past misfits like Lprent’s Trolls. They are trash.

    So Sam Neill has nothing to worry about when he talks compassion and fosters respect for fellow citizens.

    It is a serious pity that Trolls like BM in the thick of massive Murder, are allowed to curse and spit on people who have intelligence and knowledge as well as Compassion.

    Such words and the mindfulness behind them, are beyond any troll on this Blog. The Trolls Epitomise base evil. Perhaps because they never went anywhere in their long bedraggled lives.

  20. SHG 22

    Ratana church leader pleads guilty, third child sex conviction


    Remember this next time politicians go brown-nosing for votes.

  21. Eco Maori 24

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute

    I tryed to write a post on our Australian tangata whenua cousin but the sandflys are stuffing with my computer

  22. Eco Maori 25

    YOU SEE Whanau the crown does not want brown people to get a decint education because when ONE knows the TRUTH THAT IS POWER and the crown will never give tangata whenua POWER as some not all white people are just to blind with power to SEE that EQUALITY IS GOOD FOR ALL PEOPLE
    The budget’s approach to Indigenous education is just more of the same
    Margaret Malezer
    Memorialising a white man who died 220 years ago seems to be more important than saving the lives of our young people
    Through an historical lens, the Morrison government’s priorities are clearOne of budget’s centrepieces on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander education was the “Teacher boost for remote Australia” initiative, which aims to attract early-career teachers to remote-area schools. The proposal offers Help debt relief for 3,100 teachers who want to work, and stay working, in very remote areas. While the budget provided scant detail, this announcement comes on the back of the de-funding of the successful More Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Teachers Initiative (MATSITI) in 2014.
    Australian politics: subscribe by email
    Read more

    Through an historical lens, the Morrison government’s priorities are clear. In spite of its rhetoric about getting more Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people into university and jobs, this government prioritised the defunding of a successful collaborative industry-wide project – led by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander education experts and teachers – to address the shortage of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander teachers in the workforce.

    Another part of the budget which focuses on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander education is the “Youth Education Package”. This provides $200m “to give more Indigenous students the support and mentoring they need through their secondary studies”.
    Again, on face value, the goal of getting more Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children into senior secondary education and supporting them to graduate cannot be disputed. However, any approach to rural and remote education which advocates giving an additional $200m in government funding to the AIEF (or similar organisations) shows that the Morrison government has no sustained, long-term plan for improving access to the provision of secondary schooling for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander kids in their home communities, particularly those living in remote areas. Furthermore, it illustrates that the government is yet to establish a comprehensive national policy response to its own Independent Review into Regional, Rural and Remote Education, commissioned in 2017. Indeed, a search of the government’s own response to the review reveals no mention of the words “Indigenous” or “Aboriginal” anywhere in the document.
    The “Getting Kids to School” program is a $5m boost to the Remote Schools Attendance Strategy (RSAS). This is all well and good, except the evidence about the impact of the program on school attendance is insufficient. Could this be because the RSAS interim progress report in 2015 showed that the program seems to have had a positive impact in only two of the five states and territories where it was implemented? It is also of concern that the report is the only publicly available report which assesses the impact of the strategy. Despite this, the government has boosted its funding. Ka kite ano links below


  23. Eco Maori 26

    Here you go Whanau this is why Maori are Broke but not BROKEN because we have been cheated and lied to for hundreds of years they have used the media and all there resorces to try and strips us of our MANA AND WHENUA I am going to put a STOP to that
    But they stopped short of spelling out how the land that lies under their village was acquired. They’ve assigned Māori involvement to some distant past, as if the echoes and ramifications of that history aren’t still felt today.
    In doing so, they have underplayed the price that Māori have paid in forfeiting their land and future there. And they shied away from pointing to the need for Pākehā to understand how fortunate they have been as beneficiaries.
    Our family has certainly benefitted from that history, like many Pākehā families in that district. My father’s old man (from Northern Ireland) was able to buy more than 100 acres in the 1800s — and we’ve held on to half of that, milking a small herd of cows into the 1970s and then turning to fattening beef cattle.
    Meanwhile, there’s work going on to prepare a Treaty claim for much of this South Auckland area. And one of the consequences is that we should soon see, in some detail, if we’re so inclined, how so much Māori land so quickly became Pākehā property.
    No doubt there’ll be a pitiful amount of compensation for any of the unwarranted losses. There’s been no deviation from that routine since Treaty settlements began more than 20 years ago. There’ll be a reference by the government to a “full and final” settlement. And that will fall short, by nearly 99 percent, of fullness. That’s how it goes in this business. And the mainstream media will carry on as if that’s fair enough. As if there’s no need to take a second look at that.
    And us locals will come to terms with it in our own way. Some unperturbed — and shrugging it off. Others disturbed, maybe wanting to do something about it, but not knowing what.
    I helped with that Patumāhoe history project — and one contribution I offered was a brief final chapter where I was encouraging the readers to think about who’d been dealt a bad hand by our 19th-century history, and who had benefitted from it.
    The Patumāhoe book team didn’t use the chapter. They thought it would make some people “uncomfortable”. So we offer it here. If we are to move forward together, we need to get past that discomfort. Ka kite ano links below.



  24. Eco Maori 27

    Whanau you should have seen the VIP Treatment Eco Maori got this morning there were heaps of red and blue cars going around the whare the neighbours up in the hills will know when Im around as the traffic increcess by 100% this is to the sandflys PUKANA ka kite ano links below. P.S I could feel what was going down in Te tairawhiti when Eco Maori was there

  25. Eco Maori 28

    Kia ora Newshub.
    I Tawhirirmate poured heaps of water on Edgecome last year I agree totally with the lady that there needed to be more planning for climate change in Central and local government so people are preparing for the worst we know who to point the finger at.
    Jagger still going strong Ka pai.
    That’s innovation using a dump truck to ferry vehicle across the Awa down the west coast.
    I have picked the candidate that Eco Maori backs for the 2020 America election you should be able to work out whom it is.
    I do not think there is a need to ban on line video games I say that the tamariki should be monitored more I watch my Mokopuna closely.
    Game of Thrones main Star is a Wahine that is good for Wahine Equality.
    What a load of hog wash because someone dies in a scaffolding accident in Australia and the ational supporters are using it to attack our government moves to fix a broken trade training system that is failing Maori
    Ka kite ano P.S its raining here I know you know were

  26. Sabine 29

    Prisons in Atlanta US of A.

    Over populated, understaffed, people thrown away to rot and humanity, dignity and all that is just meaningless words.
    And ys, its a horror show, and it seems no one give a care or a dime

    and maybe this is what we here in NZ are preventing by giving even the most horrible of criminals a bit of dignity, as not doing it is not an option.

    At the end of the article are two images with pointers, don’t click on the pointers to see more images if you are not prepared to see blood and beaten/stabbed and raped men. And the overseers either participate or turn a blind eye. But then, they too are locked up until they get to go home at the end of their shift.


  27. Eco Maori 30

    Kia ora R&R it’s cool that the interest in Te reo has gained a lot of attention at the moment I am teaching my Mokopuna what I know. We have had a whakpapa warnanga at OUR Marae. Te tangata whenua O Atoearoa don’t know how much MANA Wairua that Maori culture has its Mana is very very POWERFUL some White Men know this and are using all the powers of the Crown to SUPPRESS it as it scares them. Ka kite ano P.S the more tangata that believe in Maori culture the stronger it gets

  28. Eco Maori 31

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

  29. Eco Maori 32

    Some Eco Maori Music for the minute.

    The reason there is no Aroha around Papatuanukue is men run the whole world they ain’t bright enough to SEE THE BIG PICTURE.

  30. Eco Maori 33

    Kia ora The AM Show.
    Big mess on the west coast with erosion taking out there old dump.
    I read a good story about the Auckland fuel tax making people use mass transport more that’s a good phenomenon.
    I say that the education reforms are well needed as it’s failing Maori and the lower classes.
    Strikes at the Rotorua hospital by anesthesiologist no sergerys I still say ational supporters have them by the nose.
    That will be good for the price of fuel prices to come down down South island with Gull gas station opening up there. Ka kite

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