Open mike 05/06/2025

37 comments on “Open mike 05/06/2025 ”

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1. Todays Posts 1

   5 June 2025 at 6:00 am

   Today's Posts (updated through the day):

   The Three Wakas of the Coalition of Coxes

   The trouble with using AI bots

   Reply
   • New Post Up 1.1

     5 June 2025 at 9:12 am

     New Post up:

     The trouble with using AI bots

     Reply
2. Grey Area 2

   5 June 2025 at 7:26 am

   Lloyd Burr asks a similar question to the one I asked yesterday about the RNZ Reid and TVNZ Verian polls. I asked how they can be so similar in most aspects yet so different in several key ones.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360712325/two-polls-two-different-outcomes-which-one-right

   Hipkins is right in saying that it's the trends that matter and Labour is tracking up.

   What concerns me is that after all the cruelty, corruption, austerity, incompetence etc of this government their support remains as high as it does and things are still pretty evenly balanced.

   “All the polls are roughly saying the same thing, that they're more or less neck and neck and they're more or less both in the low 30s,” Talbot says.

   Reply
   • newsense 2.1

     5 June 2025 at 10:31 am

     And this is before the far right arrives in force in the mainstream media. Stick a fork in NZ, it’s done.

     Reply
3. PsyclingLeft.Always 3

   5 June 2025 at 8:00 am

   What concerns me is that after all the cruelty, corruption, austerity, incompetence etc of this government their support remains as high as it does and things are still pretty evenly balanced.

   Thats People for you. The Human Condition as it were. And I'd be pretty much certain that for some, even those who are being fucked over, could think that "others" were being fucked over more…..they'd be ok with it. Way its been since ages…..

   However such being as it is….our Left needs to step up big time. Tell us all what NZ could be.

   With a Future.

   Reply
4. PsyclingLeft.Always 4

   5 June 2025 at 8:26 am

   Following on from my comment yesterday…..

   https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-06-2025/#comment-2035361

   There is a (IMO connected) RNZ article about Farmers apparently having to make some hard decisions.

   Not about Just Transitions…or Methane reduction..nothing like that. It is in relation though, IMO to Climate.

   Drought followed by wet autumn leaves farmers with 'hard decisions' on feed

   Federated Farmers Waikato president Keith Holmes said "some hard decisions" were made in autumn, with many local farmers using feed allocated for winter cover, and then having to start the dry-off process in April – about four weeks earlier than usual.

   He said that was a "particularly tough call" with the $10 dairy payout.

   FedFarm Northland Pres Colin Hannah opines….

   "They're going to have a bit of a blip, but I think they'll get through it in the north. If we don't, we'll just have to resort to palm kernel, PK, that dreaded thing!"

   But he said one silver lining was that palm kernel was relatively cheap and plentiful right now.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/country/563039/drought-followed-by-wet-autumn-leaves-farmers-with-hard-decisions-on-feed

   Of course its all about the money….that $10 dairy payout. However with the Palm Kernel resort……there are other costs, even if it is cheap and plentiful….

   It may also affect the milk. As I say..people ie Consumers are becoming much more aware, and want to know.

   Palm kernel product imported for use on dairy farms may actually be harmful to cows

   https://theconversation.com/palm-kernel-product-imported-for-use-on-dairy-farms-may-actually-be-harmful-to-cows-196569

   Reply
   • Phillip ure 4.1

     5 June 2025 at 1:34 pm

     The animal-farmers are just business people..uncaring as to how their business practices have/are fucking over our environment… don't care about the animal suffering they cause ..uncaring that they peddle carcinogenic products ..

     But they wouldn't exist if the flesh-eaters weren't there to buy their issue-riddled products ..

     And so…we should just continue doing more of the same..?

     ..allowing the flesh-peddlers to continue doing what they want…and fuck everyone else..and the environment etc etc..

     That'll work..eh..?

     .

     But the main point is that it is the flesh-eaters driving this unholy mess..

     If you really care…you know what to do…

     Reply
5. newsense 5

   5 June 2025 at 8:40 am

   From the Spinoff and just to underline, bye, bye democracy:

   Espiner also noted only 76 of 23,000 submissions supported the regulatory standards bill. Seymour downplayed that, blaming “fake submissions” generated by bots.

   The left had the opportunity to entrench things. Environmental goals and standards. But they’re too chickenshit, limpdick. They had a sufficient majority.
   Now this fetid boy is keen to gobble it all up without a second thought. Any opposition is fake. Maori are under attack again in their home land. Everything is for sale with the right party donation. Democracy is something we shouldn’t get too comfortable with.

   Reply
6. thinker 6

   5 June 2025 at 10:39 am

   RNZ asks the question why the PM was unaware his Deputy Press Secretary was dabbling in dirty dark arts.

   I wonder if he was preoccupied with his Deputy Police Commissioner also dabbling in dirty dark arts, or maybe the government's representative at the Aotearoa music awards firing hate speech at the crowd like some kind of neo-punk-rocker.

   I don't always stand up for the Soap-pusher but he has had more than his fair share of this kind of thing. From his own people calling warehouse workers "losers" and man-handling staff, to his coalition partners offending the Mexican government.

   Lucky he's so relaxed about it. It would do my head in.

   Reply
7. Maurice 7

   5 June 2025 at 10:50 am

   Don't worry "empathy girl" is coming back to save us … Napkins will step aside at the appropriate moment …

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   

   [Stop your trolling on this site. This is your only warning – Incognito]

   Reply
   • Incognito 7.1

     5 June 2025 at 11:01 am

     Mod note

     Reply
     • Maurice 7.1.1

       5 June 2025 at 12:37 pm

       Having just skipped through 'The Book' that is a serious prediction. Without a doubt she believes that a second comming will save the Labour Party.

       My comment was written in line with this – previously above:

       Though perhaps you were being sarcastic?

       Seems kinda obvious? Well, to me anyway…. : ) Humour can be a weapon : bludgeon,edged and rapier. Edged and rapier are common in satire.

       Let history show if my prediction is true or false – NOT trolling!

       Reply
       • observer 7.1.1.1

         5 June 2025 at 1:31 pm

         Symptoms of full-on derangement syndrome: a PM who resigned over 2 years ago, and has played no part whatsoever in NZ politics since, but still lives rent-free in your head …

         Let her go.

         Reply
       • Incognito 7.1.1.2

         5 June 2025 at 1:49 pm

         You were diversion trolling under my Post and have been trolling on this site for some time.

         Given that you’re into making silly ‘predictions’, I recommend reading The Prophecies.

         Here we like to have robust debate that’s grounded in reality, observation, and sound reasoning, so please skip this site until your vague ranty reckons become true-ish.

         Reply
   • Muttonbird 7.2

     5 June 2025 at 11:08 am

     With Jacinda Ardern's book coming out it's a close race for the title of biggest mummy-issues crybaby!

     Reply
8. Muttonbird 8

   5 June 2025 at 11:20 am

   It comes down to what a government believes they are accountable for. Progressive, socially conscious thinking would have the government accept that neoliberal, profit-driven economic structure and settings produce gaps which leave some families behind. Young people are particularly affected because they're unable to participate in and even learn how to participate in the society we have created.

   A government which accepts this, with a functioning progressive tax system provides remedial programmes to help disadvantaged young people learn how to participate in society and be enthusiastic about and hope for their future.

   A venal, regressive government which doesn't accept this, their role in poverty statistics, cuts funding for such programs:

   https://www.1news.co.nz/2025/06/04/programme-helping-kiwi-kids-in-poverty-play-sport-faces-closure/

   Reply
9. Muttonbird 9

   5 June 2025 at 11:23 am

   Interesting that someone of such questionable moral character was able to be promoted to such a high position within the National Party. Not surprising, just interesting.

   Michael Forbes clearly fit right in…

   Reply
10. Ed1 10

    5 June 2025 at 12:02 pm

    On Radio NZ this morning there was a statement about the debate to be held this afternoon about the penalties for TPM performing a haka which "delayed a vote in parliament." First, it is clear to me at least that they did not start the protest until after all votes had been cast, but they did delay the declaration of the vote. A small point, but typical of the stretching of the truth that does tend to happen.

    See: https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/556841/te-pati-maori-mps-refuse-to-attend-parliament-s-privileges-committee-hearing-over-haka-protest

    The Privileges Committee effectively decided that they would not allow legal representation – even from Chris Finlayson, KC! Then their 'decision' was to impose a penalty greater than it seems most people can find in our history – including a significant financial penalty. That was acting in my view beyond any reasonable expectations – not all MPs are independently wealthy.

    The debate will be interesting, but it is clear that the current structure needs review. I suggest that there always be a majority of Opposition MPs on the Committee and that legal representation be allowed. Any "time out" should carry with it no loss of votes by the party concerned – this is a behavioural issue, and should not affect the proportionality of votes in the house. Opposition MPs have an interest in appropriate behaviour – any rules agreed will carry over to a future government that they hope they will be part of. Tolerance of different cultural traditions should clearly be reviewed – if it is OK to celebrate the completion of a Treaty settlement; it should also be OK to express serious concern at an attack on cultural heritage; but within reasonable limits – I believe the short demonstration of regret should have been acceptable.

    Reply
    • Belladonna 10.1

      5 June 2025 at 12:37 pm

      While the headline is a little misleading, it does seem that a substantial majority of Kiwis polled, either support the proposed penalty for TPM, or regard it as too light.

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/poll/563111/more-than-half-of-voters-back-proposed-penalty-for-te-pati-maori-mps-poll-suggests

      I would suggest that the issue, for many, is not so much the Haka, but rather the refusal to appear at the privileges committee hearing. If there was an actual desire to move the dial on what is acceptable in Parliament, then that was the appropriate way to initiate the discussion.

      Do we really need MPs 'lawyering up' every time their behaviour is called into question? It's not laws which are being discussed, but (as you point out above) behaviour.

      Given that TPM have very poor House attendance (including missing the Budget debate), it seems unlikely that any lesser exclusion would have had any impact.

      Reply
      • Ed1 10.1.1

        5 June 2025 at 3:11 pm

        A tribunal that is capable of docking two months pay and preventing a member from voting in parliament is acting like a judicial tribunal – and should on that basis allow legal representation. The leaders of TPM were at parliament – apparently outside speaking to protestors. What is also clear is that their votes would not have made any difference to the passing of the budget – I do not know whether votes were cast by proxy – but that should have been allowed. A radical change in penalties should not have been made without broad agreement by all of the Committee – indeed broad agreement of the whole house.

        Reply
        • Belladonna 10.1.1.1

          5 June 2025 at 4:53 pm

          If your criteria is preventing the budget being passed – then there is no point in Labour or the Greens being in Parliament either. The point is to speak in opposition in Parliament – something TPM have regularly failed to do.

          You should note that the penalties imposed on Henare, who also participated in the Haka, but bothered to show up to the privileges committee and discuss the issue – like a rational adult – were minimal.

          TPM need to decide if they want to participate in parliamentary democracy – or be a protest party – much like the Irish MPs from Sinn Fein who refuse to be seated in the British Parliament.

          Reply
        • Drowsy M. Kram 10.1.1.2

          5 June 2025 at 5:45 pm

          Agreed – won't be forgetting ACT asking for advice on imprisoning TPM MPs for representing their constituents by performing a (frighteningly assertive?) haka in Aotearoa NZ’s Parliament. For shame, Attorney-General Collins, for shame.

          ACT asked for advice on range of punishments for Te Pāti Māori MPs – including imprisonment [21 May 2025]

          Sir Geoffrey calls for privilege overhaul amid haka row [8 April 2025]

          ‘Instrument of oppression’
          While no New Zealander has ever been imprisoned under the parliamentary privilege law, Sir Geoffrey said the fact that it was possible represented a “big, big problem”.

          “It seems to me that it can be used as an as an instrument of oppression rather easily against people who are unpopular, and I don’t approve of that,” he said.

          

          Reply
          • Belladonna 10.1.1.2.1

            5 June 2025 at 6:00 pm

            The fact that imprisonment is possible (as in Parliament has the legal power to imprison – note, not the Privileges Committee, Parliament) doesn't seem to have worried Palmer at any other time in his legal or political career. If he was that concerned, he had the opportunity to address the issue when he was Attorney General.

            Reply
            • Drowsy M. Kram 10.1.1.2.1.1

              5 June 2025 at 7:29 pm

              Thanks B, for that critique of Palmer. Do you have an opinion on whether the unprecedented punishments recommended by our Parliamentary Privileges Committee are proportionate to the 'crime'? It's OK if you don't.

              New Zealand Parliament votes for record suspensions of 3 lawmakers who performed Māori haka
              [Canadian Press, 5 June 2025]
              Three days had been the longest ban from New Zealand’s Parliament before.

              Maori lawmakers suspended over protest haka performed in New Zealand Parliament [NBC News, 5 June 2025]
              The three lawmakers, whose record suspensions last up to three weeks, drew global attention last year when they performed the ceremonial dance to protest a contentious bill.

              How a Maori haka protest brought New Zealand's Parliament to a halt [Business Standard, India, 5 June 2025]
              At the centre of the storm: A November 2024 protest by three Maori Party MPs, including New Zealand’s youngest lawmaker, who used the traditional Maori dance and chant to voice opposition to the controversial Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Bill. The government has since proposed the harshest suspensions ever handed down in the Parliament’s history, reported The Associated Press.
              …
              These are the longest suspensions ever proposed for MPs in New Zealand. The previous record was just three days.

              The many inconsistencies in Te Pāti Māori MPs’ haka suspensions [15 May 2025]
              All of which might lead one to ask whether the committee’s decision and sanction was not (just) about the haka performed last December. Rather, as the committee majority notes, “we intend to leave members in no doubt that the behaviour discussed is not acceptable, and that the intimidation of other members of the House is treated with utmost seriousness”. A translation of this might be that the governing majority of MPs are demanding that Te Pāti Māori will “respect my authoritah” by complying with the rules of parliament as they see them as being, or else.

              “When Tangata whenua (Indigenous people) resist, colonial powers reach for maximum penalty. This is a warning shot to all of us to fall in line,” it (TPM) said.
              https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/new-zealand-parliamentary-committee-recommends-suspension-three-indigenous-2025-05-15/

              Three New Zealand Māori Party MPs are facing the most severe parliamentary suspensions in the nation's history for performing a haka protest in parliament last year.
              https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/nz-maori-mps-faced-with-historic-suspensions-over-aka-protest/vq5f8ousx

              Three Maori MPs face suspension over 'intimidating' haka [BBC]

              Reply
              • Belladonna …

                6 June 2025 at 10:30 am

                The poll results indicate that a majority of Kiwis regard this penalty as either proportionate or too light.

                Given that TPM have refused to engage with the Privileges Committee on this issue – I think that the penalty is appropriate.

                Note, Henare (who also participated in the Haka) did engage with the Committee – and his penalty was much, much lighter. He was required to (and did) apologize for his breaking the rules (but stood by his actions).

                This option (engagement and then mitigation) was always available to TPM – had they wished to use it.

                Adrian Rurawhe (Labour MP, ex Speaker) also urged TPM to engage with the rules of the House, rather than in opposition to them.

                He implored Te Pāti Māori to think about how apologising may go a long way and to think about their long-term strategy.

                https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/te-pati-maori-mps-begin-suspension-for-controversial-haka-after-chaotic-debate/B6XVYYBWTVCA7IJMYRVSMHKDHU/

                Reply
      • AB 10.1.2

        5 June 2025 at 5:29 pm

        My guess is that TPM are trying to emphasise what they consider to be the illegitimacy of the Privileges Committee process – by openly defying it. For TPM, the illegitimacy seems to lie in the fact that the process makes no attempt to be consistent with their tikanga. I have sympathy with that view, but it seems too much like a 'nuclear' option without much of a political future in terms of gaining popular support. Though I concede that TPM may have correctly reached the conclusion that more conciliatory responses don't have much of a future either.

        Reply
        • Belladonna 10.1.2.1

          5 June 2025 at 5:55 pm

          They certainly don't seem to be upset about the potential consequences of their actions:

          But Te Pāti Māori is eager to put the matter to bed.

          "Just got to hurry up and get it over and done with and let's sort it out, otherwise we'll be hanging around here waiting and waiting and waiting. Just, they've made their verdict – let's just get it done," co-leader Rawiri Waititi said.

          https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/poll/563111/more-than-half-of-voters-back-proposed-penalty-for-te-pati-maori-mps-poll-suggests

          Reply
11. Stephen D 11

    5 June 2025 at 1:26 pm

    “Christopher Luxon demands answers as press secretary Michael Forbes resigns”

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/563144/christopher-luxon-demands-answers-as-press-secretary-michael-forbes-resigns

    He can’t even run a pissup in his own brewery.

    Reply
12. Bearded Git 12

    5 June 2025 at 1:54 pm

    Los Angeles is moving towards a law requiring that the minimum wage be US$30 plus US$8.35 benefits for people working at hotels with more than 60 rooms and airport workers by 2028. That is NZ$86 and hour.

    The law isn't through yet-Zero Hedge hates it so it must be good.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/personal-finance/los-angeles-passes-new-30-minimum-wage-hotel-and-airport-workers

    Reply
13. Adrian 13

    5 June 2025 at 2:02 pm

    The fact that 117 plywood drones could eliminate about 34% of Russias airborne nuclear delivery aircraft brings to mind just how presient and knowlegdible Helen Clarke was all those years ago when she got rid of our archaic Air Force fighters. Amid the cacophony of “ who does she think she is, she’s leaving us exposed etc, etc. she stood her ground while reminding them that the planes were older than Tiger Moths were at the outbreak of WW2 ‘ but more importantly she stated that within about 20 years or so aerial fighter combat would be redundant and unmanned aircraft would dominate disputed skies. She was so right. I so miss being led by women who know how to read and research and form coherent opinions, policies and plans. Thank you Helen and Jacinda, you served us so well.

    Reply
    • Sanctuary 13.1

      5 June 2025 at 4:10 pm

      This would be a lovely piece of wisdom and prescient insight if it were true, but unfortunately your take is complete hogwash. The reason we got rid of the strike wing was because Helen Clark was/is instinctively anti-American (like most left wing boomers she was deeply affected by Vietnam) and anti-military (she grew up when many war vets were still young enough to be dangerous violently and reactionary pricks to the 60's and 70's social revolution) and her Labour government was committed to low-tax, free market neoliberalism so they were keen for a sugar hit from a "peace dividend" that would help fund election promises. Given her predispositions the armed forces were always going to get a big post cold-war, post ANZUS haircut.

      Secondly, the whole point of being allies with Australia and USA was that each country didn't have to replicate in miniature every capability; they could specialise. So we could focus on elite special forces and peacekeeping capabilities that would be useful.

      Given the politics, the fact that the MBB-339s and A-4s consumed roughly a third of the total operational budget, cost a fortune to keep up to date and the fact that the A-4s were to soon be in need of replacement – and no one could explain any possible scenario where our jets could do anything that the massively powerful US Naval Aviation/Marine Corps Aviation/Air Force didn't already have the ability to do with their loose change – the strike wing was the perfect target to get rid of. It didn't make sense and it was expensive to run.

      This whole robot/drone revolution could not have been predicted in the 1990s. Hell, the first production lithium ion batteries – the massive advances in battery technology in the last 25 years underpin the entire FPV drone phenomena – didn't even turn up until the early 1990s.

      Reply
      • Adrian 13.1.1

        5 June 2025 at 4:40 pm

        So hows that alliance going with the ole US of A these days. Its next to useless unless you expect us to tag along in another shitfight like Vietnam. the Ukraine has just shown how well prepared Russia is with needing to employ renta bodies from North Korea. Russias nuclear missiles are probably languishing in silos no dought having had very little maintenance in 20 or 30 years with Putin acolytes picking up the contracts for maintenance. doing fuck all except sliding the money into a bank in Cyprus less of course Poots"s 30% personal cut. Staying as far away from octogenarians drug addled dreams of world domination is the best guarantee of a quiet peaceful life,

        Reply
14. Muttonbird 14

    5 June 2025 at 2:22 pm

    

    Here's a picture of the PM offering to Narendra Modi the hand which covertly filmed prostitutes, female gym-goers, women undressing, and even women just doing their shopping in the supermarket.

    Trade deal, anyone?

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/563107/why-wasn-t-pm-told-about-police-investigation-into-senior-press-secretary-michael-forbes

    Reply
    • Belladonna 14.1

      5 June 2025 at 6:05 pm

      It seems unlikely that Modi would be worried.

      https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-12/how-indias-elections-have-been-rocked-by-scandal/103825606

      Reply
      • Muttonbird 14.1.1

        5 June 2025 at 6:10 pm

        Water finds its own level.

        Reply
15. Muttonbird 15

    5 June 2025 at 2:27 pm

    Has any journalist thought to ask Chambers directly whether he knew about the allegations and the police investigation?

    He was after all an assistant commissioner at the time…

    Reply
16. Sanctuary 16

    5 June 2025 at 3:42 pm

    Anyone posted up the Jacinda interview with Rory Stewart and Alistair Campbell? Quite interesting.

    Reply

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