Open Mike 05/07/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 5th, 2018 - 180 comments
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180 comments on “Open Mike 05/07/2018”

  1. swordfish 1

    With the sheer magnificence of the Beautiful Game in all its ostentatious glory … currently enjoying a brief interlude as a temporary calm descends from the Urals to the Baltic Sea … I’ll take this brief window of opportunity to advertise my latest blog post:

    Farrar Deja vu

    (white background version)
    https://sub-zero-politics.blogspot.com/2018/07/farrar-deja-vu.html

    (grey background version)
    https://subzpsubzp.blogspot.com/2018/07/farrar-deja-vu.html

    Opening sentences from the Conclusion might give you an idea of where I’m going with this:

    Conclusion

    Between his gross misrepresentations and glaring internal contradictions, National Party Pollster David Farrar has managed to fundamentally subtract from our understanding of the Ardern Government’s comparative popularity.

    Indeed, in a veritable negative tour de force, he manages to get every single facet wrong.

    Seeking to reconcile politically-motivated spin with radically incompatible empirical data, Farrar is forced to brazenly conjure up historic opinion poll trends out of thin air, asserting the absolute antithesis of historical reality, while concurrently finding himself mired in embarrassing internal contradictions as old Kiwiblog posts come back to haunt him.

    You can see I’m in the mood to go easy on the young fellow 🙂

    • mickysavage 1.1

      Good stuff SF. Mind if we cross post this?

      • swordfish 1.1.1

        Oops ! … sorry Mickey – this is the first moment I’ve had available to look at the net since posting the above comment last Thursday morning.

        Just catching up with the reaction as we speak.

        Probably a bit late now … but if you still want to cross-post then, of course, by all means.

        Cheers, s.w. fish.

        _________________________________________________________________________

        Meanwhile …

        Great to see the Good Doctor (Wayne) engaging in a bit of healthy debate and robust criticism.

        Just to quickly reply to the Doc:

        Farrar’s claims:

        – TV3 “2% bump” tradition = Porkies

        – New Govts reach their maximum popularity immediately following their First Budget = Pork Pies

        – Ardern Govt’s comfort margin over the Opposition after First Budget is unusually narrow = Porky Pies

        – First Budgets always engender a surge in popular support for Incoming Govts = Load of old Tosh

        – New Govts always head downwards in popular support following the post-First Budget Poll = Horrendous load of old Bollocks

        – Astonishing that National continues to poll so high despite a leadership change = Entirely contradicted by none other than the younger Farrar (of August 2017) himself

    • Great summary/conclusions, Swordfish.

      The trouble is getting that counter-message across to the public.

      I had the impression the coalition government was struggling a bit – and I’m pro-labour etc. And I don’t read the Herald or Stuff and only watch TV1 news. The facts, unfortunately, don’t matter – what sticks is the insidious and constant messaging that the coalition is not doing as we as . . .

      We really do need a completely independent, or rather, a balanced news media.

      Perhaps that’s what John Campbell will bring to TV1?

      • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1

        We really do need a completely independent, or rather, a balanced news media.

        What we need is a news media that checks for and reports the facts rather than the BS.

        • cleangreen 1.2.1.1

          100% Draco.

          We all need to sack ‘Clear-ly clue-less Curran’ and puit someone in as the ministermof broadcasting that will bring us another TVNZ 7; with real invesigative jouralism;n – Otherwisw labour are history.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TVNZ_7

    • Wayne 1.3

      I read the article. For the author to claim “gross misrepresentation” is itself a gross misrepresentation.
      It is a fact that National outpolls Labour, though Labour and the Greens outpoll National. It is a fact there was no uptick for Labour following the budget.
      The next election is highly competitive, which is usually not the case when a government has been first elected. The next election was basically in the bag for the last two new governments (see 2002 and 2011). You have to go back to 1993 to find a competive election for the next election following a change of government.

      • marty mars 1.3.1

        Highly competitive? Lol you wish.

      • Ankerrawshark 1.3.2

        Wayne I read the article around six weeks ago.

        My very strong memory is that it is about the creating of a meme that new govts always get a poll bounce. That came from Farrar anke was picked up and repeated by many in the msm, in fact no one disputed it, until swordfish did some meticulous research and showed it to be utterly false.

        The point being that farrar lied and the msm accepted the lie, the aim of which was to undermine the coalition.

        I am sick to death of these lying pricks

        • Wayne 1.3.2.1

          DPF has not lied. He may have a different interpretation to you about the poll results, but that does not make him a liar.

          From what I see of the polls, and their analysis, different people can interpret them in a way that best favours their position. And I know enough about polls and how the data that supports them is analysed to know that the same poll will say different things to different people. That is all that has happened here.

          It is frankly tiresome to read various posts that immediately go to the liar accusation simply because different people have a different view.

          • One Two 1.3.2.1.1

            …it is frankly tiresome to read…

            So as not to leave room for any confusion, wayne…

            Why do you read and comment on this site?

            Honest response if you can manage one….

          • Baba Yaga 1.3.2.1.2

            The ‘liar’ accusation is up their with the ‘do you still beat your wife’ question. It is generally thrown around to shut down debate, a fairly common leftist tactic.

            • Stuart Munro 1.3.2.1.2.1

              With your own record here, and Key’s list of over a thousand lies in office, you need to own it – you’ve got serious problems with the truth. The Left is perfectly justified in shutting your lies down because they are not debate – if anything they let you away with too much.

              • Baba Yaga

                My record here is one of exposing your lies. Remember when you tried to call in the mods?

                • Stuart Munro

                  Rubbish – your record is of constantly pushing shit uphill until it collapses and buries you.

                  Your longest argument with me was about your right to make shit up with no basis in reality – it was only by returning the favour I got you to even briefly return to a few of the rules of civilized discourse.

                  You’re a faux couer and a disgrace, and your far right fantasies have no basis in reality, nor are they in any way desirable. It astonishes me that your vapid trolling has been tolerated as long as it has – it lacks the validating leavening of truth that once every millennium or so justifies the generally negative presence of unconstructive trolls.

            • cleangreen 1.3.2.1.2.2

              Yaba;

              A right wing tactic is to ‘repeat the lies until it becomes the truth’ – as you well know that is what the right are doing.

              As to the left, ‘we all have long memory’ to recall all the lies that your mentor ‘John Key’ was tracked with over his years.

              Now we will see in opposition the right will repeat lies; – as they think this is how they willl win.

              We will remember their lies.

              We have a long memory, so they will get tripped up by carrying out their constant lying.

              National are very easy to read, as they always repeat their mistakes.

              • Baba Yaga

                Politicians lie. Of all stripes. Labour politicians have been lying from the very first sitting day of parliament when they screwed up the election of the speaker, and they have been lying ever since about a raft of issues.

                • Stuart Munro

                  False equivalence again? I guess it’s all you’ve got.

                  Real rightwingers, the respectable kind, would have actual policy and not allow lying to become their defining trait.

                  • Baba Yaga

                    Despising all politicians is not a false equivalence. The left lies just as well as the right. The left just don’t admit it.

                    • Stuart Munro

                      Substantiate that ambitious claim, troll.

                      Match the list of John Key’s lies – and you’d better have better evidence than your own notoriously poor judgement.

          • Ankerrawshark 1.3.2.1.3

            Ok Wayne I made a mistake thinking the above article was the one I read about 6weeks ago but swordfish called honey moon scam . The is the one that farrar is exposed as a liar. You have to read to the very end of that article to realize that….when I have a chance I will read the above and comment as to whether it’s a matter of interpretation or a lie.

            My strong opinion re your party and associates is they lie. One of the posters here kept a dossier on keys lies. I also consider Coleman’s error of omission re the state of Middlemore in the dishonesty category. That’s my opinion.

            By the way did you ever get round to reading dirty politics?

      • Stuart Munro 1.3.3

        Yeah the Gnats were great at polling. Anywhere there are numbers they can fake they prosper. Not so good at governing though – it’s not their game. They’re here to steal public property and run down public services, a strategy that isn’t particularly useful after decades of underinvestment in infrastructure and social support.

      • Draco T Bastard 1.3.4

        I read the article. For the author to claim “gross misrepresentation” is itself a gross misrepresentation.

        And you have the facts to back up that assertion?

        No?

        Colour me surprised.

      • Sacha 1.3.5

        “It is a fact that National outpolls Labour”

        Let go of FPP. Surely a couple of decades is enough time for you to adjust.

        • Wayne 1.3.5.1

          Context matters. You have (deliberately) ignored the next sentence which said that Labour and the Greens outpoll National.

          • Sacha 1.3.5.1.1

            Blocs are the only relevant metric under MMP. Anything else is just misleading. People like yourself and Farrar are smart enough for us to believe that is not an accident.

    • Ankerawshark 1.4

      Read it swordfish. A stunning piece of work, illustrating how the right /msm work. This should be widely disseminated. Deception uncovered

    • patricia bremner 1.5

      Excellent show of nats missuse of data.
      Lies and stats.
      Who would guess LOL.

  2. Righton 2

    Yeah swordfish. Yesterday’s posts good example. How dare the guy point out all the clusterf**cks this Govt is making and the increasing antipathy towards them. I mean we’ve got increasing numbers of lefties & Maori complaining, 1000’s of poor families moving out of their cars into kiwibuild houses, harmonious industrial relations, a replacement already sorted for Oil & Gas, a well spent $2.5B increasing student numbers, extremely competent ministers in corrections, broadcasting, housing – everywhere. Labour are smashing Nats in the polls too. All is rosy in this Govt and it’s dreams.

    • Sanctuary 2.1

      @Righton

      Alex Jones called, he wants his viewer back

    • Draco T Bastard 2.2

      Do you have any facts to back your assertions?

      Or is it that, as per normal for RWNJs, you’re talking out your arse?

  3. Sanctuary 4

    Great stuff swordfish.

    Far to many journalists rely on a tired groove of a received narrative.

  4. Sanctuary 5

    I can’t believe how bad National’s attack lines are on Kiwibuild. Amy Adams sounds like a pursed lipped harpy.

    There opposition to Kiwibuild is characterised by a Scrooge like hysteria and an anxiety attack over eligibility which reveals to all just how much cost cutting and compulsive (and repulsive) parsimony were elevated to an unreasoning fetishised cult under Bill English, an eye rolling “concern” for the poor.

    Worst of all, politically it is an attack on a government policy that is guaranteed to be hugely popular with the middle NZ that John Key’s popularity (and Sue Bradford’s idiocy) has had locked up for the right for the last decade.

    National have no strategy beyond using their well funded war chest and numerous establishment media shills to launch constant and intemperate attacks on any sort of initiative whatsoever.

    • Hongi Ika 5.1

      Who created the problem ? How did NZ get itself into this situation ?

    • marty mars 5.2

      don’t rip into Sue buddy boy – she is one of the BEST people on this planet.

      I can’t really stand twyford and I thought his interview this morning on RNZ was excellent. The problem is wide and this is one improvement – I especially liked how he dismissed adams without mentioning the thickgnats. You’ve gone up a bit in my estimation phil – onya.

    • Wayne 5.3

      The $180,000 household income does seem rather high, though I imagine it is based on two teachers (or police officers or nurses) at the top of the scale, which is typically reached around age 30 for most teachers (starting at age 22 to 24).

      Even so, I would have thought $150,000 for two incomes might have been more credible.

      I presume that attraction of Kiwibuild for those putting the names in the ballot is the capped price of $650,000 (for a three or four bedroom home), plus the finance package.

      In McLennan Park, Papkura (the first Kiwibuild project) this gets a three bedroom house on its own section with a one car garage. This development has 30 KiwiBuild houses. I understand that this number of houses with the $650,000 cap was already planned under the previous govt. In fact on looking at their website the Kiwibuild homes are $579,000. The development also has a lot more houses in the $700,000 to $800,000 price range.

      Phil is under a lot of pressure to deliver lots more house in Auckland under the $650,000 price cap. It seems he is doing this by renegotiating with a lot of existing group home developments to have more houses built within the cap, than previously was the case. I know that is happening in Northcote.

      If he delivers Kiwibuild houses as per his target, (6,000 houses next year, 12,000 in 2020), well good on him. I presume around 40% will be in Auckland.

      • gsays 5.3.1

        It is, at best, a gross distortion to suggest nurses are on $90,000.
        Perhaps it is a deliberate lie.

        To get near that figure, EVERY shift must be anti-social i.e.: night shift and weekends.
        At the ‘top of the scale’ you are tending to be on the other shifts, supervising the ever changing staff.

        While I can’t be certain, for a teacher to be near $90,000, I think the term is private school principal.

        • Wayne 5.3.1.1

          Lots of nurses and teachers are on around $90,000. One or two promotions, or units of responsibility, in addition to being at the top of the scale will do it. After ten years, most nurses and teachers will have got some promotions. I was also assuming the new pay deals being done.

          As a comparator, median police sergeant pay is currently about $85,000. An Army sergeant ranges from $67,00 to $85,000, and by age 30 a lot of NZDF people are at that level.

          • dv 5.3.1.1.1

            Wayne
            Top of salary scale is 71,000$ (Sept 2017)
            PR units are 4k each
            Thus to get 90k you would need 5 pr units
            The most was 4.

            Basic Hod 2/3 units thus paid 83$

            Oops noticed you gave a 10% rise.

            Your figures are 10% high

          • gsays 5.3.1.1.2

            Ok I was wrong, it wasn’t a distortion, you were lying, and true to form as eluded to by ankerawshark below.

      • Ankerrawshark 5.3.2

        Ok Wayne I made a mistake thinking the above article was the one I read about 6weeks ago but swordfish called honey moon scam . The is the one that farrar is exposed as a liar. You have to read to the very end of that article to realize that….when I have a chance I will read the above and comment as to whether it’s a matter of interpretation or a lie.

        My strong opinion re your party and associates is they lie. One of the posters here kept a dossier on keys lies. I also consider Coleman’s error of omission re the state of Middlemore in the dishonesty category. That’s my opinion.

        By the way did you ever get round to reading dirty politics? (

    • miravox 6.1

      It seems that’s what happens when a ministry is set up as a sales department.

      It could start by totally switching around its list of objectives in the about us statement

      The Ministry for Primary Industries is helping maximise export opportunities for our primary industries, improve sector productivity, ensure the food we produce is safe, increase sustainable resource use, and protect New Zealand from biological risk.

      And then hire people at levels to match the importance of the reversed list ranking.

      • Anne 6.1.1

        A typical descent into a “sales department” went like this:

        My example: NZ Meteorological Service between 1988-1993.
        1. Throw out the Director General (a highly qualified scientist of international ranking) and his equally well qualified senior staff.
        2. Install a General Manager and support staff from the private sector who have little or no knowledge of meteorology but who have a gift of the gab.
        3. Produce a new ‘mission statement’ which in effect turns wind, rain, sunshine, snow, hail and heatwaves into marketable products.
        4. Gradually (or not so gradually if possible) get rid of all staff who have been employed for more than 20 years or who are over 40 years old and replace with members of a more youthful variety who can be payed less.
        5. Close field stations which provided most of the intelligence that enabled forecasters to forecast. (now basically redundant due to modern technology but not back in those days)
        6. Trim down the public services on offer and pour all resources into money making ventures aimed at the private sector eg. aviation. In other words, you only get a decent service if you’re willing to pay big bucks for it.

        Fortunately a form of sanity prevailed in the early days of the Bolger government (yes, the Bolger govt.) and the service became an SOE. The old ‘new’ management was discarded and a new ‘new’ management installed who appear to have known what they were doing and had knowledge of the subject matter in hand.

        • miravox 6.1.1.1

          Nice example, Anne.

          The Department of Conservation is another that the last government put through this process too. That hasn’t exactly turned out well either.

    • Hongi Ika 6.2

      You missed PSA in the kiwifruit industry ?

      • Nom 6.2.1

        And the mismanagement of the fisheries. MPI is not fit for purpose.

        • marty mars 6.2.1.1

          Thanks – massive issues for this crew.

          • Poission 6.2.1.1.1

            Keys dumb move with smartgate was noted.

            https://www.labour.org.nz/biosecurity_rethink_a_long_time

            • marty mars 6.2.1.1.1.1

              Yep the gnats did this.

              //rantmode on

              For 9 dark years it was keep your head down and ride out the dirty floodwater, else you too will drown. This was not by accident, it is inevitable and known and happens when government focuses on the wrong things imo. Labour and mates are actually the heroes come to save the day. Right across all services things have been allowed to go to shit. It is going to take time to sort. EVERY govt department should be offered ways to sort their shit out because a lot of them are shitty and that is NOT the fault of employees.

              //rantmode off

              • Poission

                the argument that managers are managers,and have transferable skills across complex institutions is a legitimate question.

                Government institutions once had significant institutional memory,against the corporate structure that has been brought to gvt departments ie finacialization (read washighton consensus)

                Financialization is a process whereby financial markets, financial institutions and financial elites gain greater influence over economic policy and economic outcomes. Financialization transforms the functioning of economic system at both the macro and micro levels. Its principal impacts are to (1) elevate the significance of the financial sector relative to the real sector; (2) transfer income from the real sector to the financial sector; and (3) increase income inequality and contribute to wage stagnation. There are reasons to believe that financialization may render the economy prone to risk of debt-deflation and prolonged recession. Financialization operates through three different conduits: changes in the structure and operation of financial markets; changes in the behavior of non-financial corporations, and changes in economic policy. Countering financialization calls for a multi-faceted agenda that (1) restores policy control over financial markets, (2) challenges the neo-liberal economic policy paradigm encouraged by financialization, (3) makes corporations responsive to interests of stakeholders other than just financial markets, and (4) reforms the political process so as to diminish the influence of corporations and wealthy elites.

                hence the rise of the corporate manager eg.

                This realignment of corporate manager interests to coincide with those of financial markets has been facilitated by the destruction of union power. This has removed a countervailing force that previously prevented managers from siding excessively with financial interests.

                (read my golf bags were held up at biosecurity hence I missed connecting flight to resort)

                http://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/wp_525.pdf

    • patricia bremner 6.3

      Thanks Marty, will be planting 3 trees to replace unsuitable ones in spring… good to have a reminder of the ‘no no’s’.

  5. Hongi Ika 7

    Most MSM are still banging a tired worn out drum, most do not have the ability to think for themselves, they are all wired into group think and are programmed to spread a certain message to the masses ?

  6. Puckish Rogue 9

    Winston shouldn’t be taking the money for the cold weather however what National should do (but won’t) is announce it’ll be championing means testing for everything

    Do any parties want to bring in means testing?

    • marty mars 9.1

      Yeah maybe their leader Simon Seymour could front it – could be good for his profile.

    • Sabine 9.2

      With ‘parties’ you mean the No mates Party? Cause the coalition has agreed to this benefit already and rolled the programme out?

      I can see the housing allowance fraud and his side kick the welfare queen of national importance to be the first one lining up to get the money. After all both Enlish and Bennett have never seen a benefit that would not apply to them and to which they would not feel entitled too.

      so again i propose you formulate your concerns in a nice letter addressed to Simon’No’Bridges and mates.

      • Puckish Rogue 9.2.1

        Do any parties want to bring in means testing?

        • AB 9.2.1.1

          I hope not.
          Transfer payments from the state to individuals should be universal and regarded as a right of citizenship.
          You address the issue of wealthy people getting transfers from the state by having much more steeply progressive income taxes as we used to do pre-1984. It is incredibly efficient, and equitable both among and between generations. (Oh and you count capital gain as income)

          • Puckish Rogue 9.2.1.1.1

            I come from the viewpoint that if you don’t need it you shouldn’t receive it, a viewpoint that puts me at odds with my in-laws (which is always amusing)

            Instead of more taxes I’d prefer giving less money away

        • Sabine 9.2.1.2

          are you gonna ask the No mates Party ?

          cause the ‘other’ ‘any’ parties do not see the need for it.

          so ‘any’ party leaves only the no mates party.

      • Hongi Ika 9.2.2

        Bennett & English would definitely not apply for these subsidies as they are straight as a die ?

    • Draco T Bastard 9.3

      Do any parties want to bring in means testing?

      A good tax system should always be in place. Of course, National did try to turn us into an international tax haven and refused to go after those not paying their taxes.

      • Puckish Rogue 9.3.1

        I look forward to the list of tax avoiders brought to justice under the current government

        • Draco T Bastard 9.3.1.1

          So do I.

          I also hope that they’ll rectify some of the laws that allow people to avoid paying what taxes they should really be paying.

          I’m not going to hold my breath on either of them though.

  7. Jenny 10

    “Resting in the folds of Lady Liberty”

    “Abolish ICE”

    “Authorities evacuate Liberty Island”

    Give us your tired your poor your huddled masses yearning to be free.

    https://abcnews.go.com/US/protester-climbs-statue-liberty-prompting-evacuation-island/story?id=56370410

  8. joe90 11

    One of the people tRump is considering to replace Kennedy on SCOTUS bench is Amy Coney Barrett, who’s sworn a loyalty oath to a religious group called The People of Praise and is answerable to a personal adviser called a handmaid.

    https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/07/amy-coney-barretts-alleged-religious-group-people-of-praise-what-is-it.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Praise

  9. james 12

    Dont let the door hit you on the way out

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12083480

    “The Court of Appeal has upheld the decision that Kim Dotcom is eligible to be extradited to the United States of America.

    The court released its judgment today that Dotcom, Mathias Ortmann, Bram van der Kolk, and Finn Batato are eligible to be extradited to the US to face criminal copyright charges over the now-defunct file-sharing website Megaupload.”

    • Puckish Rogue 12.1

      Good, this farce has gone on for far too long. Do the right thing Little:

      “It is now up to the Minister of Justice Andrew Little to decide if extradition should take place.”

      Time for some payback, if he wants it:

      https://www.nbr.co.nz/article/labour-should-have-spurned-dotcoms-party-%E2%80%94-little-ns-163808

      • Gabby 12.1.1

        Payback puckers?

        • Puckish Rogue 12.1.1.1

          For playing a really large part in getting National re-elected

          • marty mars 12.1.1.1.1

            Vindictive little shit aren’t you puckers. Mask slipping? Time for a kitkat mate 😊

            • Puckish Rogue 12.1.1.1.1.1

              Well it did all work out pretty good in the end with Keys re-election but that Dot Com tried to sway the election just so he could avoid extradition didn’t sit well with me and it seemed a large number of people agreed

          • Robert Guyton 12.1.1.1.2

            National were elected in (really large) part thanks to Dotcom?
            How hopeless are they, needing that help?
            You must despair of them, Pucky, despite your tribalism.

            • Puckish Rogue 12.1.1.1.2.1

              Having recently started watching Dr Jordan Petersons lectures on youtube I have to say yes tribalism is a very bad thing and as such is something I’m actively working on to remove

              • millsy

                You do realize that Jordan Peterson wants homosexuality, pre maritial sex and abortion outlawed do you? If you make out with a woman in a bar, it’s jail for you boyo.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  You can of course provide links to that?

                  • gsays

                    Hey well done PR on looking to remove your tribalism.

                    It doesn’t do any of us any good to blindly follow anyone just because…

                    For our democracy to be strong, the PTB need to be held to account.
                    I reckon that is what is needed in the wash up of the KDC debacle.

                    What was said at Sir slippery John’s meeting with warners?

                    What assurances were given by the greasy one?

                    Has any member off the constabulary been held to account over the illegal raids on KDC? Or Nicky Hager while I am on my high horse.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Not going to lie but taking off the blinkers isn’t easy and in fact can make things harder for yourself because you have to think more

                      Like I’m quite big on on the courts being the final arbiter but the law can be used by the rich (Colin Craig for example) to “get away it”

                      So I don’t want to be glib and say something like “well its up to the government” but I’m not sure of what else to say as they are ultimate law of the country

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Hey, that’s interesting, Pucky; expunging tribalism’s a topic worth pursuing and I hope others will join the conversation as everyone benefits from more thoughtful commentary on all issues. How are you going about your detribalising? Have you other examples of something you’ve identified and adjusted; a belief or position held? I’m keen to talk about the advantages and disadvantages of being politically tribal; maybe we could move this discussion to today’s Open Mike?

          • bwaghorn 12.1.1.1.3

            I’d agree the big reveal was such a fuck up . It sent people running

      • mac1 12.1.2

        ” Do the right thing Little”

        “Time for some payback, if he wants it”

        Do you see these things as contradictory or complementary, Puckish Rogue?

        Justice or revenge?

        • mac1 12.1.2.1

          “For playing a really large part in getting National re-elected.”

          So, it’s revenge then? That’s the right thing for the Minister of Justice? Use the processes of law to get even with another politician? That’s the right thing.

          Or is that the Right thing?

          • Puckish Rogue 12.1.2.1.1

            Its not one thing or the other, in this case doing the right thing also allows for some payback so hopefully Little will allow himself some small measure of enjoyment

      • peterh 12.1.3

        And you dont think there will be another appeal, there are higher courts yet to play, outcome years away

    • Stuart Munro 12.2

      Dotcom is one of those rarest of new immigrants, one with both the skills and capital for entrepreneurship. US interests needed to fuck him over or he’d own what would’ve become Netflix. Same thing happened to the folk who started Napster.

      The whole sorry saga is what you expect from an utterly corrupt government that doesn’t have a fucking clue what it’s doing. Dotcom was a gift along the lines of McCully’s flying sheep, to the US, for which the quid pro quo was to be a free trade deal. Do we have a free trade deal? We do not – though an article of surrender called the TPP is slated to be signed shortly.

      * Human rights fail – Dotcom was not subject to US law.

      * NZ law fail – Dotcom’s activety was commercial, not criminal so extradition is a bust.

      * Entrepreneurship fail – an NZ government with any sense would have got behind Dotcom to build on the burgeoning cyberlocker technology in which he led the world.

      * Dishonest ‘pragmatism’ fail. The flying sheep didn’t secure a Saudi trade deal and harassing Dotcom didn’t secure a US trade deal on anything approaching fair terms.There’s a pattern here, but fuckwits like Groser and McCully were too stupid to see it.

    • millsy 12.4

      It just means that the case will be dragged out for a few more years.

  10. patricia bremner 13

    Personally I am ashamed of NZ’s role in all of this. Our justice system has failed imo.

    • Anne 13.1

      One thing you can be sure of patricia bremner and that is Andrew Little will put his heart and soul into any decision he has to make on the matter. He will leave no stone unturned and will apply strict impartiality to his deliberations. I can say this because it is the nature of the man and we can be grateful we now have him as Minister of Justice.

      • Wayne 13.1.1

        If it is the AG, then it is David Parker. I assume it will go to the Supreme Court.

        If the SC decides that KDC should be extradited, then I would expect the AG to follow that. What possible basis would there be for the AG to come to a different decision to the SC? Every possible thing has been (or will have been) exhaustively considered by the courts. Of course that means KDC can go for judicial review of any such decision by the AG.

        The only way this ends any time soon is if the SC decides KDC should not be extradited. Otherwise perhaps another 5 years.

        • veutoviper 13.1.1.1

          As I have now commented at 12.2.1.2, your comment prompted me to check the Extradition Act 1999, and under section 30 it is the “Minister” – not the Attorney-General – that makes decisions under the Act. “Minister” is defined as the Minister of Justice under s.2. So Andrew Little, not David Parker.

          Sorry if my original 12.2.1 confused people. My references to A-G and Andrew Little were straight from some of the media reports and I should have clicked that Andrew Little was not the A-G but Minister of Justice.

          • Wayne 13.1.1.1.1

            Yes, the Minister, not the AG.

            But the same general point applies. It will be very difficult for the Minister to do anything other than confirm the courts decision (assuming the SC actually decides the the US extradition request should be accepted). At least that is how I see it.

  11. Robert Guyton 14

    That sordid Saudi sheep deal – when will that be exposed for what it was and excepted for what it is?

    • Puckish Rogue 14.1

      If theres any actions against the law then it should be investigated and, if any guilty parties are discovered, they should be punished to the full extent of the law

      • Draco T Bastard 14.1.1

        The prima facié evidence is that it was an outright bribe. Such are illegal and so it needs to be investigated to see if illegal actions were taken.

        • Puckish Rogue 14.1.1.1

          If thats the case why isn’t it being investigated, theres certainly no love lost between Winston, the Greens and Labour and National

          • Draco T Bastard 14.1.1.1.1

            Don’t know. It should have been investigated when it happened.

            Why isn’t our justice not hunting down the perpetrators of an injustice? Is it because it was National that did it?

            • Puckish Rogue 14.1.1.1.1.1

              Is it because the decision was poor, bad, shouldn’t have happened but not illegal

              • Draco T Bastard

                Don’t know – there hasn’t been an investigation.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Its starting to sound a little circular 🙂

                  • Stuart Munro

                    The belief that governments might be held accountable for dishonesty offences in office is not one sitting MPs wish to strengthen. By avoiding the issue however, they merely sponsor the creation of a fresh generation of rorters.

  12. Ad 16

    Kiwibuild:

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12083472

    5,800 signed up in one day, now it’s 17,000 in two days, and rising.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1807/S00054/kiwis-want-kiwibuild.htm

    That’s a whole bunch of people motivated to keep this Labour-led government in power to ensure that those houses are delivered.

    A government with a plan, giving people hope, and with money and will to do it.

    Love your work Mr Twyford.

    • Puckish Rogue 16.1

      Or, alternatively, there’ll be a lot of unhappy people having to wait years for the opportunity to buy a house

      Pretty much like it is now.

      • Ad 16.1.1

        There will be some disappointments – as there was under the previous schemes- but there will be many thousands who have their dreams fulfilled who would otherwise not get that shot.

        And the more that get built, the more see that it is worthwhile continuing to vote in the government who has delivered for others.

      • Gabby 16.1.2

        They may find there are a few more rentals available at sane rates though puckers.

    • Ankerrawshark 16.2

      1000+ Ad

      Punish at least those waiting for a kiwi built will know they are not competing against buyers who are investing and renting out the property or foreign speculators

  13. Draco T Bastard 17

    John Hart:

    So if National was in government, would they dictate what foods a private business can put on their menu? Calm your farm Nathan.

    The replies are a must read 😈

    • Puckish Rogue 17.1

      Yeah this is dumb, NZFirst and National are over reacting to this. It’ll probably end up not being well received and then it’ll be taken off the menu and everyone’ll be happy

      • soddenleaf 17.1.1

        NFZ are pushing the debate forward, what is rural nz to do when we hit infinite protein? It’s coming. Holding back the inevitable, you can trust NZF when reshaping the rural economy. National haven’t your back farmers.

        • Puckish Rogue 17.1.1.1

          What do you mean by infinite protein?

          • soddenleaf 17.1.1.1.1

            Grow meat protein in factories means when you need it just in time, grow it.

            • McFlock 17.1.1.1.1.1

              As long as it makes better steak than tofu, good.

              • Stuart Munro

                Thing about tofu is to get it fresh (or make your own), not to make ‘steak’ out of it. It’s quite possible to cook it in an appealing form, sundubu jjigae for instance, but low grade meat substitutes are rarely appealing.

                • McFlock

                  I did actually have some tofu I didn’t despise a week or two back – excellent restaurant, the tofu was crisply fried on the outside.

                  But my comment was more about how people occasionally come out with “substitutes” that are “just as good as / just like” meat – I can’t help thinking that the last time they had a decent steak was so long ago their memory has been warped.

                  It’s not just about protein – texture, fibres, gristle, flavour, fat…

            • Puckish Rogue 17.1.1.1.1.2

              Sounds ghastly

      • veutoviper 17.1.2

        “… then it’ll be taken off the menu and everyone’ll be happy.”

        Not everyone – eg Ed and his sycophant, Maui won’t be happy.

        PS – Draco’s link is a hoot! Well worth a click.

        • Puckish Rogue 17.1.2.1

          I despair at times at things like this, this is not what National should be doing

          • marty mars 17.1.2.1.1

            I agree, so why do they do it?

            I’m hard to move from, ‘because they are silly and not that bright’. I’m actually okay if less than brilliant people run the show but the gnats are just spinning – probably poor leadership, it usually springs from there.

            • Puckish Rogue 17.1.2.1.1.1

              Same reason as Labour barked at every passing car I guess, what the actual reason is I don’t know but I’m guessing this is not something that will resonate with the general public

              • Baba Yaga

                It’s the common disease of opposition – they are starved of media oxygen. There are simply times when they should just STFU.

        • mauī 17.1.2.2

          Neither Ed or I need this sort of attack veuto. Its no wonder people like us have been driven from the site. Right now I have better things to do like planning next years Veganuary.

          • solkta 17.1.2.2.1

            You mean people like those who will recommend a movie without having seen it because the propaganda seems to fit?

            • mauī 17.1.2.2.1.1

              So seeing the trailer for LOTR never influenced your decision to go and see it? yeah right. Anyway you’ve switched topics.

    • Pat 17.2

      I’m curious to know if all members of Fed Farmers, National and NZ First religiously fly Air New Zealand if they have a service available?

  14. mac1 18

    Over 19,000 NZers have registered their interest in buying a home in twenty four hours, Minister Twyford announced just now in response to question 8 supplementary.

    Over 19,000 people in the first 24 hours.

    Of course there never was a housing crisis that 19,000 at their first opportunity would want a chance to at an affordable house when possible…………

    • Herodotus 18.1

      You have been mis informed re the 19k interest in buying
      This link may better inform you
      http://www.mbie.govt.nz/info-services/kiwibuild/document-image-library/folder-pdf-library/faq-registration-and-eligibility.pdf
      “Yes, anyone can register their interest in KiwiBuild. This includes potential home buyers as well as people who simply want to receive updates about KiwiBuild.”
      “5. Can you register someone else – e.g. a mum registering their adult children?
      Yes, anyone can register to receive more information about KiwiBuild.”

      https://www.parliament.nz/en/watch-parliament/ondemand?itemId=201422
      Also I note the subtle dig at teachers 2 minutes in, with the example of “say 2 teachers with 5 years experience lets say earning $160k” IF ONLY, or is there an intention to give the teachers more than they were asking !!!!!!

      From below teacher with 5 years is on $60k . To earn $160k for 2 they must be on Step 12, and that does not take 5 years
      https://www.education.govt.nz/school/working-in-a-school/teachers/primary-teachers/#Pay
      https://www.education.govt.nz/school/running-a-school/employing-and-managing-staff/collective-agreements/primary-teachers-collective-agreement/pa

      • mac1 18.1.1

        Herodotus, the transcript of part of Q8 which I observed on Parliament TV is as follows.

        “What interest has there been in purchasing a KiwiBuild home?

        Hon PHIL TWYFORD: I said that the KiwiBuild unit was opening their doors, but, in fact, Kiwis have smashed the door down. Over 19,000- —over 19,000—New Zealanders have registered their interest in the last 24 hours. This just shows how many young New Zealanders are desperate for a chance at homeownership, and as KiwiBuild ramps up, we look forward to seeing these families buy and move into their own homes.”

        That is what I reported.

        • Herodotus 18.1.1.1

          you said “Over 19,000 NZers have registered their interest in BUYING a home in twenty four hours,” it was not the same as what the minister said ( linked) from question 8, and what the official link re Kiwibuild states as who can register, not everyone who registers is a buyer, I have registered just to keep informed in this matter. This is different from how I read your comment. Perhaps that is an error on my behalf 🙁
          The minister IMO handled the pre pared question and subsequent questions poorly re my comment on teachers with 5 years experience, at least he could base his answers on facts 🙁

          • mac1 18.1.1.1.1

            The Minister replied to a questioner who asked, “What interest has there been in purchasing a KiwiBuild home?” That was the question he responded to. ‘Buying’ is the same as’ purchasing’, and Minster Twyford said that 19,000 had registered their interest. He didn’t explain what registered their interest’ meant.

            In the meantime Stuff has published this article. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2018/07/nearly-20-000-kiwis-have-applied-for-kiwibuild.html

            It says, “More than 6000 people registered for a KiwiBuild home yesterday, and that number has more than tripled today.

            Minister for Housing and Urban Development Phil Twyford told Newshub that more than 19,000 Kiwis have now registered for the programme.”

            How many actually will be purchasers is a moot point. These are the numbers of people registering for KiwiBuild. Why would they do that if not interested in purchasing such a home? Most will be seeking to buy a home, which is my point. So many people needing state intervention to enable their home-owning dreams. Homes being provided by this government in contrast to the last government which could not even acknowledge the seriousness of the situation.

            • Herodotus 18.1.1.1.1.1

              Why would they do that if not interested in purchasing such a home?
              – People interested in the policy and want a highly functional coherent policy that works for those that have been shut out, not only for those who earn $100k as per ZB link 13 minutes in the our Minister agrees with!!!
              http://120.138.20.16/WeekOnDemand/ZB/auckland/2018.07.05-07.00.00-S.mp3
              – Those who manage family trusts , as beneficiaries of family trusts it seem will be eligible to purchase kiwibuild 4:30 into todays question 6
              https://www.parliament.nz/en/watch-parliament/ondemand?itemId=201420
              IMO spend the money and use the land to construct State Houses, then we can house those in need, and not allow private landlords to be the recipients of state sanctioned welfare, but that is only my opinion 🙂

              • mac1

                So I’m glad first of all that the small matter of whether I misreported what i saw and heard in Parliament today has been dealt with.

                That was as far as I wanted to go with this, Herodotus.

                You seem to have an agenda of attacking Twyford or the government.

                So I will answer your perception that Labour is somehow in the pockets of people who are into trusts.

                Again, from my recollection of the House today, Twyford was at pains to point out that people who are thus inclined will not be the natural respondents to purchase lower cost houses .

                I would also make the point that such houses can not be on sold for three years. Would not-genuine buyers who are trust-connected people be interested in buying housing aimed at lower income folk which cannot be sold for three years. I’m not privy to he thinking of such folk, but I doubt it.

                Especially if the housing market increases are slowed down by the various measures designed to discourage speculators and non-resident buyers. That alone would discourage owners trying to make a profit since a three year compulsory retention should raise questions of doubt about successful profit-taking.

                By all means build more state rentals, but the KiwiBuild programme is catering for those who want to own their own homes, a totally understandable objective, and is supposed to self-funding as houses sold will pay for the next tranche of houses to be built and so on.

                These matters are however subsidiary to the main aim which is to provide 100,000 homes of affordable nature over ten years,

                19000 people interested in 24 hours is a massive indication of the interest and the need for this programme.

                • Herodotus

                  Is there something wrong in making observations in an area I have some knowledge and experience in?
                  Re your comments on attacking the government, is there anything wrong in keeping them honest? I had the same attitude towards the previous govt.
                  I still think that they should be held accountable for what they went into last years election on.
                  Re Twyford I have the impression from encounters with him and that others have had with him within the industry, that he has the desire to make improvements regarding housing, BUT holds some wild ideas that are impracticable.

                  And I was taken back on his comment today of 2 teachers with 5 years experience earning $160k- That mis information should be pointed out especially with the current teachers pay demands.
                  And I do accept that discussions can get beyond what contributors desire or intended !!!

  15. Siobhan 19

    Anyone who’s been in that situation would realise that a supposedly desperate first home buyer who can only commit to 3 years ownership isn’t a home buyer, they are an investor and a property speculator.

    Clearly I don’t mean people should be tied to a house if it conflicts with their changing circumstances, but that should be an exception.

    If anything should have a 3 year timeframe, its rentals.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-44671094

  16. Ad 20

    Sure it’s a wee way off, but the 2026 Football World Cup is going to be jointly hosted by Mexico, Canada, and the United States.

    https://twitter.com/sinow/status/1001450158289244160?lang=en

    Sports Illustrated recently called Mexico the US’s OTHER team.
    True in the theoretical as well as the symbolic and actual senses.

    As a supplement to the human religious impulse, this 2026 event will have a real unifying impulse in the frame of a threatened NAFTA and vey very high immigration borders.

  17. Hongi Ika 21

    JK and National said there was no housing crisis ?

  18. cleangreen 22

    What did national do when they said they ‘prefer to give less money away’

    Oh they spent it on changing Flags or paying to keep banks afoat?

    “Just to name a few”

  19. Eco Maori 23

    This idiot Scott Pruitt is trying to play the GOD card while he is doing everything in his power to destroy GOD’S Creatures and OUR environment good ridence he has resigned link below.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/05/scott-pruitt-resigns-epa-trump-latest-news-resignation

    Ka kite ano

  20. Eco Maori 24

    This is the humane system needed for Papatuanukue to help all the common people.
    With a universal basic income for all the tangata of Papatuanukue everyone will gain. There will be less crime less health problems the government will get a better tax take business will make more profits common people will become more confident they should be able to still work and get the unervisal income it’s not ROCK SCIENCE people its humane nature. Some people were saying that a fuel tax would not lower traffic jams in Auckland well te Kumara never tells how sweet it is. Ka kite ano

    https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/jun/27/benefit-or-burden-the-cities-trying-out-universal-basic-income

  21. Eco Maori 25

    This is what Aotearoa has to do to tackle our plastic waste problems
    Australia has the same issue as Aotearoa nowhere to send the graded waste to be recycled. Link below.

    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jun/28/with-incentives-industry-could-tackle-australias-waste-crisis&ved=2ahUKEwjwmqqytIncAhXJZt4KHeMyDEAQFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw35kRMsj9aXIgp2wz0Y5wF9&ampcf=1
    Ka kite ano

  22. Eco Maori 26

    Some people don’t know a good thing when it’s staring the in the face Elon Mus mega factory will change things in Nevada but he has changed the game on renewable energy Ka pai Elon ignore the oil barrons trolls. Ka kite ano

  23. Eco Maori 27

    Link for the above post

    ‘All humanity has left the area’: paying for Tesla’s Gigafactory

  24. Eco Maori 28

    Ka pai Phil Goff the Mayor of Auckland for banning these two far right hired trolls from Canada from using council venues. We don’t need you spreading your dumb ass ways in Aotearoa.
    You know the old saying when a Wahine enters a room some men are captured by her Wairua and lose all logicthat’s what it looks like to ECO MAORI Ana to kai links below.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12084381

    Ka kite ano

  25. Eco Maori 29

    Eco Maori did tautokoing The Rock radio station but it got to hot for them + they keep using words I don’t like like Crack ect enough said

    http://spy.nzherald.co.nz/spy-news/did-dwts-make-listeners-turn-off-the-rock/

    Ka kite ano

  26. Eco Maori 30

    Good evening Newshub that’s a brilliant idea having a giant orange bollon to greet trump he’s you know what.

    I have seen a lot of camera on the road in my travels big brother is being put in place in Atoearoa.
    Many thanks to the Wellington council for give the beautiful Right Wale the respect that Tangaroas creates deserves Ka pai.
    Ka kite ano

  27. Eco Maori 31

    Here we go more of trump making statement that are unlogical the EU was set up to Rob AMERICAS piggy banks. And than a attack on Nato.

    http://www.euronews.com/2018/06/30/u-s-ambassador-estonia-resign-amid-frustration-trump-administration-n888021
    Ka kite ano

  28. Eco Maori 32

    Our Prime minister did a great thing for Maori culture buy giveing her first born girl a Maori middle name Nevea Te Aroha Ardern Gayford some people just can’t see the big picture and they try and use this for their cause charter schools ECO MAORI once again says don’t bite te person that Tau toko you

    https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm%3Fc_id%3D1%26objectid%3D12082999&ved=0ahUKEwiZotXtwYrcAhUMat4KHfnFDHYQxfQBCDkwAQ&usg=AOvVaw37GEgaOyqJHnI5AUYmojar Ka kite ano

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