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Open Mike 05/12/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 5th, 2017 - 217 comments
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217 comments on “Open Mike 05/12/2017 ”

    • • Eight carparks lost, including the angle parking outside the anchor shop, Harvest by Huckleberry.
      • Bus stops installed in front of a dairy and a liquor store, both convenience stores that say their customers need casual parking right outside.

      And they’d both be wrong.

      Really, considering the evidence, I’d think that these people would be proclaiming AT’s foresight. But, then, they’re probably ignorant National voters.

      • No planting to help beautify the village.
      • No other design features to help beautify the village and make it more pedestrian friendly.

      Isn’t that the council’s job rather than AT’s? Of course, they should have coordinated between them and they probably didn’t. I’ve seen this more and more over the last few decades as we’ve businessified government. Businesses compete with each other and don’t share but government needs to do the exact opposite to be effective (and, yes, that does mean that businesses aren’t fully effective).

      • Footpaths laid with ugly asphalt instead of the more aesthetically pleasing concrete.

      And, boy, would you hear the complaints when they got the rates bill.

      It’s not that I’m against using better materials, in fact, I’m all for it. I’m just saying that concrete costs more than asphalt and that the people complaining about the use of asphalt are probably also the ones complaining about rates going up.

    • Anyone riding faster than a slow crawl risks being hit by a car coming out of a property and hitting them.

      This has been bugging me as well as they don’t seem to think that it applies to cars driving down the road as well. Which it most assuredly does.

      Yah see, when a car pulls out of a driveway they’re supposed to look for anybody first. That’s actually law. So, a car pulling out of a driveway in front of a pedestrian/cyclist/car is in the wrong and any damages will fall firmly upon the car pulling out of the driveway.

      HINT: Learn to fucken drive.

  1. DH 2

    Here’s a part of NZ that people don’t think about much or know much of;


    The real story there is how the (non-Police) enforcement system works. The bureaucrats involved have a limited budget for investigating and prosecuting offences. So they prioritise, taking on only those cases they consider the most serious. So far so good, that sounds sensible enough. But what happens to the cases that aren’t a priority? They file them and proceed to pretend they don’t exist.

    They all work like that and have done for as long as I can remember. The Commerce Commission for example receives many thousands of complaints annually from the general public and they ignore them all, they’re not important enough.

    Another part of it is they can decide for themselves what is and what isn’t a priority and it’s often not what the average person would think is a priority. They can ignore what we’d view as serious crimes to pursue their own agendas, using up all their budget in the process.

    It’s a broken system all right.

    • Ed 2.1

      More consequences of globalisation and neoliberal capitalism.
      I nearly typed ‘unintended’ and then I remembered free market capitalism does not care about its externalities.

    • OnceWasTim 2.2

      There’s more to come @DH … see yesterday’s OM at bottom and the previous day.

      It’s become NZ’s shame and not as though people haven’t been trying to alert MoBIE to the problems for years now. I’m glad it’s finally blowing up.

    • The biggest, brain-hurtingest pile of stupid in the article is that the issue is presented as being about finding the money to investigate all the complaints. Maybe, just maybe, they might consider the idea that allowing “students” to pay tens of thousands of dollars to come here in the expectation they’ll get permanent residence is a really fucking stupid idea that guarantees this kind of modern-day slavery and should be stopped immediately?

      • OnceWasTim 2.3.2

        Exactly. That’s what happens though when you put INZ under a ministry like MBIE and treat it like a business – reliant on churn and ‘throughput’, and you don’t properly police immigration consultancies (there are a few legit ones and a pile of charlatans here AND offshore)
        Ditto the Labour Inspectorate.

        Immigration consultants need to be completely independent without any conflicts of interest – such as financial interests in PTEs or Labour supply and recruitment companies.

        • Ed

          They need funding to add some teeth.

          • OnceWasTim

            Ain’t that the truth!.
            They also need to be de-shackled from a ministry that has the wrong culture and focus (INZ and LI) – perhaps run them independently initially.
            Resourcing, monitoring and policing things doesn’t seem to have been one of MoBIE’s strong points (Shitty motorway steel anyone?)

            This has been a problem that’s been going on now for several years and there are many who’ve been doing their best to warn of the consequences.

            There are some good people in both INZ and LI and others – not so much.
            The lawyer in that newsroom article is one of many who’ve been trying to warn of the problems, AU research that should have been taken more seriously, advocacy groups trying to provide welfare support.

            Just like the housing bubble, this is one that the previous government has been happy to pump up no matter what the cost. It has so many facets to it but one common factor is that we’ve basically been exploiting people, lying to them, ripping them off, and then often chucking them out in order to keep the bubble inflated.

          • David Mac

            Let the exploiters fund it. Hit them where they hurt the most, their pockets. Extend the powers of clawing back the proceeds of crime and after clearing their back wages lets fund the dept charged with cleaning them up via their ill gotten coin. Not only did the worker dip out on wages, the exploiters bankroll their rental portfolios on the backs of their slaves. Start forcing the sale of a few rental houses to pay outrageous fines and we’ll see some changes.

            • Draco T Bastard

              If a business commits a crime then it should be instant re-nationalisation and the owners being subject to the Proceeds of Crime Act (obviously, everything that they own would be the proceeds of crime including their trusts).

              • David Mac

                Then it turns into a game of hide the assets and the money usually wins that game. We’ll end up with scores of restaurants owned by people with off-shore addresses etc.

                Nothing would cut through quite like ‘Pay us $150,000 by the end of the month or enter bankruptcy proceedings, you choose.’

                • We’ll end up with scores of restaurants owned by people with off-shore addresses etc.

                  They still would lose the restaurant though and it probably means that they’re purposefully committing crimes as well and so we then blacklist them from owning anything in NZ ever again.

                  • David Mac

                    Devious money hogs will be 2 steps ahead of you and I when it comes to stashing their booty out of sight.

                    Derail the ‘How can I conceal my loot?’ train of thought with a more convincing offer, induce: ‘I better stop doing this because I stand a good chance of being stung $150k.’

                    • I think loss of the restaurant will be more than the $150k. $150k is nothing.

                    • David Mac

                      ….Can I have $5000 please Draco?

                      So call it 250k. Our Employment Slave Untouchables funded by their foe wouldn’t be there to accumulate vacated restaurants. They’re there to stop these turkeys being a handbrake on the working standards of each and every NZer.

                      Hit them where it hurts, demand they give the dept for catching people like them $250k by Jan 1st or do time.’ Get caught again and you will be stripped of all assets and flown to your place of birth.

                      Watch that money get magic’d up. Some may need to take out loans, too bad.

                    • Guess What Happened When JPMorgan’s CEO Visited Elizabeth Warren’s Office

                      …I told him that if that happened, “I think you guys are breaking the law.”

                      Suddenly Dimon got quiet. He leaned back and slowly smiled. “So hit me with a fine. We can afford it.”

                      That’s the problem with fines.

                      Take the business instead. Leave them with all the debt that the business owes. And then take all their personal stuff as well as proceeds of crime.

                      Leave them fucken paupers with no way back.

                    • David Mac

                      Banks are a bit different, ultimately they paid their fine by having the government write themselves a cheque.

                      Destroying anyone leaves nobody better off Draco.

                      Teach them the error of their ways in a loving way that attacks the very reason they’re exploiting people, their love of the $.

                      Don’t leave loopholes. Don’t leave room for new premises to open up around the corner under a cousin’s name and the slave crew re-locating.

      • DH 2.3.3

        I don’t fully agree there Psycho Milt. IMO it reveals an underlying problem with the senior civil service. There’s an absence of moral outrage.

        The picture painted in that article is of huge numbers of offenders getting away with it. And senior management don’t appear to give a shit, they didn’t exactly make much noise about it did they.

        • OnceWasTim

          Well I agree with you there too. Others that comment here will no doubt also agree. From memory I’ve seen one or two comment on their public service experiences.
          “And senior management don’t appear to give a shit, they didn’t exactly make much noise about it did they.”
          No they didn’t. When MoBIE was created, you’ll recall their priority was the installation of a curved screen.

          And if people think this: http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/voices/audio/2018623155/rinku-s-story-life-after-the-dark is rare, unfortunately they’re deluding themselves

        • Psycho Milt

          The toxic effect the last couple of National governments have had on NZ’s public service ought to be a lot better known than it is. The not-giving-a-shit came from the top – hopefully changing the top will see an improvement.

          • DH

            We can but hope.

            It’s an odd scenario that does need more light shone on it. With the Police we report a crime and its recorded as such. With most offenses the Police know a crime was committed, they just don’t know who did it so their resources are stretched more at the reactive level. Every reported burglary will get entered into burglary statistics so we know how many burglaries are occurring

            With these other agencies it’s the offender who is recorded, not the crime. They don’t know an offence has been committed until they conduct an investigation. And of course they never do conduct it so the ‘crime’ never happened. We don’t get to see the real statistics on offending, hardly a surprise NZ seems so corruption-free when you think about.

            • Draco T Bastard

              With the Police we report a crime and its recorded as such.

              Not always as we saw with, IIRC, the police mis-recording thefts and such. It made the minister at the time look good though as ‘crime’ had gone down.

        • joe90

          underlying problem with the senior civil service.

          There is no senior civil service. It’s long been replaced by the bringing in of the very best of the private sector, contractors, contracts, secondments, and if you want to hold onto a job, the cultures of I’m alright, Jack, and STFU.

    • greywarshark 2.4

      Thinking of what DH at 2 has written. That’s just a mirror shot of the neo lib economic system. You look at a confusing lot of stats and possibilities, and pick out the ones you want to concentrate on which will give a satisfactory outcome and justify the time spent dealing with them. The rest get filed away as externalities or something.

      There is no standard of ethics behind this economic system, no commitment to caring, fair treatment, just PC responses that sound good. Turn all the attention to one particular concern and then people won’t notice all the worse things around them while their bile gets directed at the popular cause du jour.

      People in general have no claims to consideration unless they are on a list of requirements, and all concern is with compliance and reaching targets. Real people who are not specified as beings-of-concern can get stuffed.

      And if people don’t like this they have to start caring about other people and how they are managing, and how to change the direction that society is moving in. Take an active part in establishing human values, and don’t trust just anybody who looks human, they may have been taken over by neolib lack-of-values so far that they are goners and will take all they can from you and your community.

      • DH 2.4.1

        nIce to see someone understood what I was trying to convey there greywarshark, communicating isn’t exactly my best feature 😉

        You have it in one, if the moral imperative is missing then it all goes wrong.

        I can recall reading about the Commerce Commission some time back. Their criteria for prosecuting an offence was it had to be newsworthy. I kid you not, they even put it in writing. They’d go for only the high profile cases with the argument they’d make the news and therefore act as a deterrent to other would-be offenders.

        Of course the crooks who prey on everyday people; the con artists, scammers, fraudsters and thieves, were rarely newsworthy. So the Commerce Commission just kept filing and forgetting the constant stream of complaints from Joe public. They weren’t newsworthy.

      • OnceWasTim 2.4.2

        “Take an active part in establishing human values, and don’t trust just anybody who looks human, they may have been taken over by neolib lack-of-values so far that they are goners and will take all they can from you and your community.”

        Yep, and unfortunately sometimes we have to learn the hard way – or perhaps I should have said ‘learnings have to be earned the hard way going forward’.

        There are many now prepared to bullshit and spin (including in our ‘public service’) in order to preserve their comfort, AND often at the expense of those little peons beneath.
        In the case of MoBIE, there probably should have been a bit of a hint in it’s name (going forward), but if not that, then that Steven Joyce/Jonathan Coleman cabinet paper I referred to a couple of days ago on OM.

        • DH

          I’ve often wondered what it must be like for the workers at the coal face. They care. They get all these case crossing their desk, look victims in the eye, and see so many of them get shelved with no action taken. It must be very frustrating and disheartening.

          • joe90

            EAP, anger, disgust, frustration, lottsa venting* and sometimes, tears.

            pinot gris doing the talking*

          • cleangreen

            DH , & Oncewastim, well said,

            As a 73 yr old in a broken body half destroyed by chemicals all I see every day are insensitive, self centred individuals who dismiss others for no good reason and have absolutely no compassion for others now.

            We live in a very cruel society today.

            Just look at the article in the front page of the NZ Herald today, 5/12/17; – “they said it was all in my head”.

            The story centered around a NZnavy veeteran who just wo his compensation for conrtracting Parkinsons from years of workplace exposure to Trichloroethelene (TCE) so he was abused for years by so called “health proffessionals” so we again see that there are many of us who fall through the cracks and wind up damaged by these (VOC’s) Volitile organic chemicals as i was in my workplace in 1992 without any adequate ventilation for my six month job there and guess what those “health proffessionals all said the same thing to me,

            As I have 110 doctors reports (from 43 doctors) with me today on my workplace disablility only some “health proffessionals my employer used (three) said that “it was all in my head” too!!!

            But I had to go to other more specific recognised expert proffessionals in ‘toxicology’ both in the US/Canada who knew about the toxicity of those chemicals and said it was chemical poisoning that disabled me too.

            So after five years of torturous effort I finally won my WCB ruling in recognition that my many resulting health conditions, were caused from the chemical exposures in my six month exposures in my workplace so I was vindicated too finally.

            So this navy man and I have a lot in common.

            • OnceWasTim

              Yep CG. This change in government is reason for hope.
              Not sure if you recall, but we’ve communicated offline (I mean offline from TS and TDB) in the past through email. I think over things like rail and its potential.
              As it happens, I’ll be heading o’seas in the new year to reconnect with some of the victims of our wonderful immigration/PTE/Labour system, and hopefully get them to swear affidavits if possible.
              At the moment, it’s a bit like a Harvey Weinstein effect – i.e. at what point does the number of overwhelming anecdotal ‘tales’ become legitimate evidence of complete and utter failure of those in authority to actually give a shit?

              • Thanks OWT; – What I saw in my WCB five year case in Toronto, was the same stuff as we see in
                james and Alwyn stating, “give us the proof”.

                It is the neutalising tool they use.

                I have fought against the cleverest deceptive minds in Toronto far better than james or Alwyn.

                Those I was up aganst were representing my employer as their witness in front of the WCB.
                And they used the “show me the proof” shit on me in my case there.

                Where I instinctively went was a network of doctors in Canada and USA who stood up for us chemically poisoned workers against big corporations like i worked for.

                And they fought for us and after several letters testifying I had a workplace injury it swing in my case finally.
                All this took five years while I was very ill then, and have learned to remain away from chemicals now to recover little by little since then.

                In NZ there are very few brave Doctors who will stand against an aggressive government department.

                So if we got a network of injured people/workers together as we had there in US/Canada we would win to also here so time will telll if this new government willl stand up for us without any voice.

              • greywarshark

                Chemicals mixing and overwhelming the body’s systems are what I hear mentioned as at the base of many things (endrocrine and hormonal are words that have been mentioned). Sorry CG that you have been through the mill.

                Have had some problems through family member contracting condition of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. There are a lot of medical opinions about that. We got through it, but the condition hasn’t gone away completely. And getting diagnosed takes time and I think the person has to tick about 12 boxes out of 20 as it is a syndrome, rather than one single problem. We think it was a stage and negative things came together – being a teenage boy going through a growth spurt and picking up some toxicity in a tomato glasshouse after having had flu-like symptoms.

                Headlines that make you pause:



                Drug firm Concordia overcharged Britain’s health service with 6,000 …
                Nov 21, 2017 – The National Health Service spent 34 million pounds ($45 million) on liothyronine tablets last year, up from 600,000 pounds a decade ago, after Concordia increased the price per pack by almost 6,000 percent from 4.46 pounds to 258.19 pounds. CMA Chief Executive Andrea Coscelli said: ”Pharmaceutical companies …

        • greywarshark

          Once was Tim
          Love it ‘learnings have to be earned the hard way going forward’.

          It should be an in-joke with all active-minded forward-looking standard-waving people – placed in a prominent position done in an interesting font, perhaps one that creates a futuristic machine-run feeling.

          • OnceWasTim

            Ae! (with apologies to Don Brash)

            Some interesting comments on this subject – there will be more to come I’m certain.
            Interesting though that of the pathetic number of prosecutions there have been (by INZ or LI), assets have been seized. But you see things like PTEs going under with its principals having an interest in an immigration consultancy. In all cases, the victims of their bullshit services go uncompensated.
            You see things like other Immigration consultant firms also having a financial interest in labour recruitment/supply and connections with offshore overseas education ‘agents’.
            Bullshit, lying and ticket clipping along the various stages is usually their trade. Unfortunately, both LI and INZ (and I suspect the Immigration Advisors Authority) have been so under-funded that they’ve failed to see the bleeding obvious at times – either that, or working as designed.

  2. Ed 3

    Good to see Stuff running a campaign to stop our use of plastic bags.

    However, if we want to care ‘for the environment so your grandchildren don’t inherit a scorched ball of barren dir’, then we are going to have to do a lot more than just give up plastic.

    Stuff’s neoliberal owners – if they really want a world worth living on- should campaign for the banning of our economic system – capitalism.
    3% growth on a finite planet is a recipe for cataclysm.

    Their second campaign should be to educate people of the damage animal agriculture does to our planet, as well as the pain and misery it inflicts on our fellow species who share the Earth with us.

    Now, if they were to tackle those issues, I’d believe they were serious about our impact on the Planet.

  3. “Free foriegn water bottling extraction policy” – is now comming home to roost.


    Two overseas owned large bootling companies Two years ago these global companies were given concent to use “deep well aqiufer extraction of tax free water.

    The blame for municipal low water uptake is because these overseas companies now are draining our HB plains aqiufer systems using “deep well exraction’ now municipal water suppies are suffering depleted “shallow well extraction” as a result.

    Blame the municipal Council and their regional council’s both for this current issue of a lack of water now so Napier mayor Dalton should not be blaming the residents for the shortage, but start blaming the bottling companies he allowed to take our free wate in the first place.

    • dv 4.1

      Here is more info on the water ‘theft’


      Up to 30,000 litres of Hawke’s Bay drinking water will be bottled every hour and shipped overseas when the region’s latest bottling plant opens.

      From July, 50 to 75 truckloads of water will leave the plant each day and travel to the Port of Napier, then onto China and other countries.

      One Pure International Group has resource consent to take 405,000 cubic metres a year from a bore at its waterfront site at Awatoto, Napier.

    • James 4.2

      Since you list it clear as facts – how about some links to back it up.

      Not saying you would ever lie or anything.

      • James 4.2.1

        Here are some FACTS for cleangreen.

        “Users typically use 570 litres per person per day – this is well above the national average. If we can get on top of this over the next few days we will be able to drop this level-4 restriction,” he said.

        Napier running out of water was highly unlikely, “but it is a possibility”.

        “We are using water faster than we can pump it into our reservoir from the aquifer.

        So it is a usage issue – combined with the low levels of rain.

        No mention of depleted aquifers.


        • cleangreen

          See my true facts for troll James at 8 below as james does not live in HB he is clueless as to the real facts of what is really going on there.

          We recall Canterbury had a water shortage issue also after a similar bottling company was rorting their aquifer and the regonal authority stopped water extraction there, so should we stop them here in HB before our water supply is totally ruined.

          James you are wrong every time and why do you use a stuff report????

          The stuff folks dont go out and learn what commercial use is taken and report on comercial bottling extraction amounts from these both bottling companies do they,

          So you have shown you are not really interested in learning the real facts.

          • james

            LOL – so you call something “FACTS” – have nothing to back it up – no links etc etc, but argue that someone who DOES have the information is wrong.

            I linked to the stuff report because it quotes Council director of infrastructure Jon Kingsford and NIWA scientist Chris Brandolino

            You on the other had live there – so that makes you an expert?

            So – try backing up your comments that you state are FACT with some evidence – and no – just because you live there is not evidence.

            You must have something – after all you used CAPS and everything for your “facts”

            • Grey Area

              James, do you believe everything you read? You do know that people sometimes don’t tell the full story because they have an agenda or they have been told what not to say?

              You need to be ready to read between the lines.

              I’m not saying Cleangreen is right linking deep aquifer extraction with Napier’s supply issues but just say he is correct. And if the mayor of Napier supports the export of bottled water because it provides a few jobs for locals (not sure what Dalton thinks but plenty of our local body politicians don’t seem to have a problem with it) then what would you expect council staff to say?

              “We are using water faster than we can pump it into our reservoir from the aquifer.”

              Was Jon Kingsford asked if pumps are operating at normal pressure and flow rates? Because just maybe Cleangreen is right and the reasons the pumps can’t keep up is excessive usage and excessive aquifer extraction.

              I’m not saying that he is but I’ve got an open mind about it. Especially when there is black crap coming out of some Napier taps.

              • greywarshark

                Grey Area
                Sorry but that is such a fatuous question ‘James do you believe everything you read?’

                It’s obvious that he doesn’t believe anything he reads on TS. However he is handy as a back-board for verbal tennis players, guaranteed to return your ball with spin!!

                • Grey Area

                  I know. Broke my own rule (DFTT) so my bad. I made the mistake of trying to reason with him but he’s not genuine so I’ll go back to ignoring him.

                • Incognito

                  It’s obvious that he doesn’t believe anything he reads on TS.

                  This must be James’ Paradox: you cannot believe anything written on TS. Since he himself writes here he obviously doesn’t believes his own writings. But if he does believe his own comments on TS then he contradicts the paradox. James must be a very confused person indeed; to believe or not, that’s the question.

            • cleangreen

              James; you say nothing about aquifer depletion?

              I just got back from town and saw you are still wanting some proof?

              Firstly come to HB and see the ricvers drying up, as the river flow is now reduced to verry low llevels and you said there was nothing in the Stuff article about aquifers depleted, well read where I referred to the gisborne case and it was publically notyesd by GDC that the aquifer was depleted in Gisborne and they went through a year long consenting/public submision process to find what the community wanted to do.

              I am sure you need to skill up on some facts as HB also has already had the issue covered abot the aquifer problems associated with the havelock north debarkle, do you live in NZ?

              Everyone who watched news during that event heard about the concerns about our Hastings regional aquifer?

        • Draco T Bastard

          “Users typically use 570 litres per person per day – this is well above the national average. If we can get on top of this over the next few days we will be able to drop this level-4 restriction,” he said.

          Isn’t Hawk’s Bay one of the locations in NZ that doesn’t have a water metre on every house?

          If so that would mean that they don’t have enough data to make such a claim.

          • james

            They obviously have something to measure it.

            • savenz

              The point is, whatever the nitpick on the usage, why the fuck is it acceptable to be allowing a foreign or NZ company to drain NZ aquifer in the first place and in the second place for nothing while they profit!

              It’s twightlight zone thinking – which has become so normal that people don’t even seem to look at the main point. Why are we giving away this stuff for nothing – water is essential for all life, human, animal or plant – it’s what makes NZ the place it is. We don’t live around a giant Desert like other countries and our environment is adapted to have copious water. Why are we destroying our own country and then arguing on usage figures?

              The the righties argument seems to be based on dubious FACTS and STATISTICS and copious reports and pieces of paper (used all the time from Auckland transport/RMA/TPPA to just create diversions because then the argument becomes about whose facts are correct vs the stupidity of the actual agreement).

              There is little to zero benefit for NZ’ers so just stop it. And if the government can’t stop it, WTF are they doing signing more trade agreements like TPPA-11. If foreign corporations don’t like it and stop ‘investing/pillaging here, good riddance we’ll have the better people investing here, hey they might value the environment and the water might be used in a better way than bottling!

              At least with NZ First, Winston will probably just say Fuck You and stop it. That is why the guy is still around. He doesn’t care about all the fine print when the basis is wrong in the first place. So sue us and prove again why these trade agreements and their zealous pushers are so wrong.

              The paper pusher MP’s, councillors. planners, environment judges and government advisors, blog trolls are without any logic and are ‘tick box’ thinkers that is part of the problem.

              • james

                Nice subject change.

                The point is that this is not the cause of the problem – other than cleangreen making up so called ‘facts’ – check the link for the real story.

                • You are repeating your old line where’s the facts.

                  Media dont do facts they do fantacy that ‘s why we are in the mess we are today James.

                  Chemical Companies began their ‘defence’ in court when chemicals destroyed many, simply by repeating your rubbish as they would say “there is no proof that these chemicals cause harm”, big tobbacco did your line also!!!!!

                  So cut this crap and dont use the media as they dont do facts.

                  Media is now owned by those corporations like chemical conglomerates
                  who are doing all the damage and pillage and covering it up so no press cover as you seek.

                  • james

                    So Council director of infrastructure Jon Kingsford and NIWA scientist Chris Brandolino DONT do facts.

                    But some guy (I assume) on the internet with nothing to back it up DOES.

                    You realise how stupid you look right?

                    • You really are missing the real facts arent you,

                      Do you read my posts as we have made it clear that ‘scientific’ facts are relevant but from whom is very relevant her.

                      So you generally refer to media sources heregenerally.

                      We want to see any reports been that have adequately made on extraction of commecial users on the HB/Gisborne regions?

                      You need to learn what really is going on here before you rely on media.

                • The point is that this is not the cause of the problem

                  It probably is.

                  Cars weren’t thought to be a problem until someone measured the damage that they were doing.

                  Same applies to water. How much can sustainably be taken from an ancient aquifer? More often than not we don’t know but we still drag as much as we can out for the profit of a few.

                  It’s this attitude that we can simply take and that there will be no consequences which is the problem and you exemplify it perfectly.

              • solkta

                It’s looking now like Winston will support the TPPA whereas the Green position remains unchanged.

                • james

                  Way to go Winny.

                  • adam

                    Why james where the question asking solkta to prove the statement? I mean it’s like 2 weeks old news and off topic, but you get to go ra ra, so you dropped the ball…

                • savenz

                  @ solkta – If that is true then you would think the Greens might actually announce their position on water/TPPA etc via front page of their website and through emailing their followers…. nobody can know of the Greens positions if it’s hidden away somewhere when it’s a hot topic….

                  Are the Greens doing any protests at all on the TPPA or water issues? Or is it purely a paper policy exercise to them?

                  People voted for the Greens to have them fight that battle.

                  And from a social justice point of view this is what has happened overseas on the water issues and human rights. Could this be a way for Golriz to shine by protecting NZ water as a human right (both from pollution, foreign extraction under trade agreements etc) so that what has happened in the US does not happen in NZ and corporations own the water for profit and start to turn it off?

                  As well as making the Greens a bigger voice on this important issue, water human rights effects EVERY New Zealander.

                  Water is a Human Right: Detroit Residents Seek U.N. Intervention as City Shuts Off Taps to Thousands



                  • solkta

                    Perhaps before coming here and talking utter shit you should do a quick google search:


                    Greens won’t support new TPP legislation as changes ‘don’t go far enough’



                    Green Party trade spokeswoman Golriz Ghahraman said the new iteration was still “an outdated form of trade agreement”.

                    “We don’t want ISDS in there at all, that binds our current or future Governments to act on progressive agenda.

                    “We need to know exactly what is in there before we decide anything, but as it stands, things are concerning for me like the fact that we’re hearing multi-nationals can’t sue our Government for contract breaches, but actually that doesn’t apply to the investor chapter, which is where the power lies.”

                    The Greens made it clear to Labour in negotiations that it would not support the TPP.

                    “And they understand our policy difference,” she said.

                    “There are too many caveats for some of the things that we care about and on environmental issues that’s a really huge deal – that’s where countries are being sued.

                    “The risk to our democracy and our environment and our human rights protections still outweigh the benefits. And I think there’s still also transparency issues.”

                    Ghahraman said the Greens would be working to change New Zealand law in the long-term, so trade deals would no longer be drafted within the level of secrecy that’s shrouded TPP negotiations since they began in 2005.

                    • savenz

                      Solka with people like you apparently either officially or unofficially representing ‘the Greens’ messaging as their so called ‘caring’ ‘human rights’ side – you can understand the missing 100,000 voters for the Greens.

                      I’ll love to the get new email from the Greens..

                      “listen talking utter shits, Greens are great and to prove we once said we supported TPPA and would look for long term changes to legalisation – google it. In the meantime now we are in parliament we say little to nothing”

                      Here’s Chloe’s new avocado recipe… if you don’t like it, vote Labour.

                      so green…

                      unless conspiracy theory going here, it’s some right wing attack dog strategy to pretend to be someone officially representing the Greens under the name Solka, riling up other Green supporters.

                    • solkta


                      Nobody here is representing the Greens but are rather expressing their personal understanding. Some actually have facts to back up what they say.

                      You come on here all angry and talk complete nonsense about what the Greens have said/not said/are/were and then act surprised when someone expresses annoyance. All a bit much really.

                      Perhaps you might like to acknowledge that you were wrong? That is rather than continuing to spread an untruth that is now a lie: “now we are in parliament we say little to nothing [regarding the TPPA]”. That press release was from November 13.

                    • weka

                      Solka with people like you apparently either officially or unofficially representing ‘the Greens’ messaging as their so called ‘caring’ ‘human rights’ side – you can understand the missing 100,000 voters for the Greens.

                      I’ll love to the get new email from the Greens..

                      “listen talking utter shits, Greens are great and to prove we once said we supported TPPA and would look for long term changes to legalisation – google it. In the meantime now we are in parliament we say little to nothing”

                      Here’s Chloe’s new avocado recipe… if you don’t like it, vote Labour.

                      so green…

                      unless conspiracy theory going here, it’s some right wing attack dog strategy to pretend to be someone officially representing the Greens under the name Solka, riling up other Green supporters.

                      I can’t make any sense of that comment other than you having a go at solkta.

                      You made up some shit about the Greens. Solkta has said you’re wrong and provided evidence to pack up their assertion. You’ve come back with a comment that makes up more shit and struggles to be comprehensible.

                  • savenz

                    Soika you are not helping the Greens with your comments. I suggest you make it clearer you are just a “recent” commentator with your personal views, so your abuse is not officially affiliated with the Greens.

                    A real Green person would just put out the link. Not address it with talking utter shit and abuse to anyone else idea’s.

                    Also my point is, that maybe the Greens should put it on their website front page AND send out an email. Not rely on MSM to get the message through as both MSM and other blogs are currently rabidly engaged on another Green issue like Gloriz CV?

                    And you should have put up the link to what I replied to which was your statement

                    “It’s looking now like Winston will support the TPPA whereas the Green position remains unchanged.”

                    [Solkta is not a recent commenter. There is no reason I’ve seen to think they are an official GP commenter. Stick to the points instead of attacking the person – weka]

                    • weka

                      yeah, we get it. You think that the Green Party comms sucks. Next time make that point, instead of implying change in policy.

                      Afaik the Greens position on the TPPA remains unchanged. But you do understand that they are in government now. This means at least two things. One is their workload just changed dramatically. Two, they will compromise on policy where they need to but not on values (that’s the position they took during the election campaign). That’s all normal.

                    • solkta

                      I’ve made it clear above that I represent myself. You are certainly not helping the Greens by repeatedly telling lies about them.

                      The press release was on the homepage of the Greens site on the day it was released. The three most recent press releases always are (scroll down). It is still on the website under “News” which you would know if you looked at my second post with further links or if you had bothered to look in the first place. Most members would not wish to receive every single press release. Again if you actually look at my links you can see that it was well picked up by the MSM. Two more for you:



                      So that’s Stuff, Radio NZ, Herald, TV1, TV3 (newshub). I’m sure you could find more if you could be bothered.

                      Your point was “If that is true then you would think the Greens might actually announce their position”. Why not just acknowledge that you were wrong?

            • cleangreen

              Classic chemical company/tobbacco ploy, “show us the facts”

              “nothing to see here”

              james you are not understanding what is phyically happening here.

              HB rivers are now at historic lows and the aquifers are too.

              Will you still go on about “show us the facts” Come and see what we are saying is going on or I will igore your ignorance.

              This is not fantacy, – it is fact.

              • james

                ““show us the facts”

                You say that like its a bad thing. You make the assertion and continue to not back it up with some proof.

                Perhaps you need to look at the policy:

                We are intolerant of people starting or continuing flamewars where there is little discussion or debate. This includes making assertions that you are unable to substantiate with some proof (and that doesn’t mean endless links to unsubstantial authorities) or even argue when requested to do so.

                • “We are intolerant of people starting or continuing flamewars”

                  Who the hell is “we”.

                  I have only seen you against the left here so who do you work for in that angle as you strongly suggeest you are a “we” so are you a group of Cynic’s or propragandists for the failed National opposition?

            • Draco T Bastard

              If they don’t have household metres then all they have is the metres at the pumps. They know it’s being pumped out and which networks it’s going into. From there they can make some assumptions but without the fine detail that household metres would provide they can actually be missing stuff – like small leaks or a car washing business* that’s run out of someone’s home.

              * Used purely as an example

          • mac1

            Total usage divided by number of residents?

            63000 population of Napier multiplied by 570 litres each gives some 36000 cubic metres.

            One large garden sprinkler 1500 litres per hour. People bitching about the council sprinkler left on, while not a good PR ploy, should consider that home consumption is the key. All those people leaving their sprinklers on all night at the above consumption…….

            Even a leaking tap is 200 litres per day!

            • Draco T Bastard

              That’s what I figure that they’re doing but it’s a crude system that can miss many possibilities that have nothing do with actual use or the fact that some people, because they’re not charged for excessive use, leave the bloody taps on.

          • cleangreen

            Draco you are right, Napier has no water meters thanks to iwi and stuart nash.

            “If so that would mean that they don’t have enough data to make such a claim.”

            Napier City Council (NCC) is wrongly stating they know how much each home uses every day. it is just fiction. (as Alwyn said and james would say”show me the proof”

            Well NCC cant show any proof period.

            They lied or fudged it all but don’t all authorities do the same?

            The plain truth is NCC have fucked up and are heavy into ‘damage control’.

            They have no idea how long they can keep the water supply safe and secure and sustainable either way.

            We all as ‘Napierites’ know ‘stuff’ all those who not living here dont, and our current administration has lost all our faith in them today.

    • joe90 4.3

      Never mind locals consuming nearly double the national average.

      • savenz 4.3.1

        Yes lets punish locals by giving away the water to be bottled in plastic bottles, and then sold to the richer counties that have polluted their own water supplies for nothing. Then the polluters can take they money they made polluting their own country to lobby to have trade agreements to make it possible in other countries. Also it helps to pollute the oceans with plastic waste by all the plastic bottles.

        Removing water by foreign companies will show NZ locals they need to reduce their usage and value water because there will be none left. (sarc)

        • joe90

          It ain’t the aquifer, it’s the infrastructure and locals can do one of two things, pump more or use less.

          • savenz

            Or we can lose resources and money by allowing foreign companies tax free to pump out water from Aquifer and therefore less revenue for locals to fix the infrastructure while thinking of taxing the taxpaying locals more and telling them to pump less as there is apparently a water shortage.

            Sounds like a fair solution to an ongoing issue (sarcasm)

            • joe90

              The situation in Napier isn’t about the resource, it’s about infrastructure that can’t keep up with demand.

              But do tell how you go about increasing revenue by reducing the supply of water to the industries that depend on the resource to employ locals.

              (about fifty percent of the Heretaunga aquifer is consented to irrigation, twenty three percent to households, twenty one percent to other industry and around one tenth of one percent to bottlers)

              • savenz

                Oh so keep giving water away for free to industry that local’s don’t benefit from (even if its small percentage it’s still not right and like the fishing quotas have been proven to be completely unreliable when it comes to what is actually going on) then and ask other’s to pay for infrastructure?

                • joe90

                  You’re barking at the mouse and ignoring the elephant – Napier’s problem is infrastructure, not resources,

                  • savenz

                    I’d say if there is no water or polluted water flowing through those infrastructure you have the problem the other way around.

                    Look beyond the next 5 minutes to policy now, for sustainability long term. The water itself needs the protection the most, because councils and government can spend a fortune on infrastructure pipes and then if 5 years from now you don’t have or can’t use the water then you have wasted that time and energy in the wrong place. And no water is a major problem in this country as practically everything here relies on pure water and the costs to undo this problem are massive for a small country like NZ.

                  • Grey Area

                    Saying something repeatedly doesn’t make it true.

              • Joe nice to see you have some figures,

                Can you inform us as that the ‘Commerial bottling companies’ have deep well ejection and good water quality?

                Whereas; in the regional cities we/they get shallow well ejection and less water quality.

                We were told during the havelock north bebarkle public meetings.

                The deep wells recieve the most pristine water quality and shallow wells get lower quality water.

  4. eco maori 5

    bill english you are full of it you had nine years to help our youth and what did you do. Well you called our youth unemploy able lazy drug users and this dum ass statement would have damaged Alot of our youths wairua. Now you are saying that more resources need to be invested in our youth. And what did you and key do when you had the power to improve our youths lives you open the doors on immigration which had a negative effect on our youths employment opportunities and you gave all the resources to your wealthy m8 you change all our state services into somethings that are used to control and minuperlate and denie the people the basics resources they need for a humane life that’s nationals track record.
    My children went to work as soon as they finished school you see my wife and I set a work culture for our family.
    This work culture is what needs to be installed in all our mokos and to give them work and inspiration have a career map right to retirement Yes we need to get them talking about retirement at a early age so the start thinking about tomorrow and not to just think about today. Kia kaha

    • greywarshark 5.1

      eco maori
      Really good points you make there.

    • eco maori 5.2

      There you go after I posted about my son in laws problems with our justice system on Monday my daughter rang and told me that they had made him wear his home detection bracelet for 3 weeks longer than the courts had ordered some one helped many thanks to you the bracelet off now I want them to scrap his PD he works 6 days a week and on the day he should be home with my daughter and mokos he is doing his PD these people can’t see the big pictures which is they are putting my daughter and mokos future at risk. I support there relationship as I no this is best for my mokos. They are lucky not everyone had a father like eco whose worked out the system and gives them good advice. You no I said how those people are busy with me and they will leave our youth alone. The young mite have committed a minor crime but why they are innocence is because they don’t no that OUR justice system is a beast and once you are part of that system they won’t let you go till you are a broken person 20 years later under the bridge. This held in custody until charged is a farcical law which the cops use as leverage to get our Maori people to plead guilty.
      These people like national because national have given them all this power to use and abuse on OUR people
      Whom the majority are Maori. Now be proud of OUR Maori culture and heritage Kia kaha

  5. Grey Area 6

    Great to hear Kim Hill interviewing English on Morning Report this morning. So good to hear a member of the National Party being challenged on their position in a professional way that they have not been very often over nine long years.

    So often in recent years there were some obvious, direct follow-up questions that were crying out to be asked of the previous government (that often I called out to the radio) but seldom were. Like this morning: “What would you do?’ and “Aren’t you guilty of double standards?”

    English seemed irked and accused her of being partisan when she drew a parallel between young people having their benefit cut if they didn’t work while Todd Barclay had a two-month European holiday at taxpayer expense.

    Kim got English to answer questions when all he wanted to do was spin the Nat’s current attack line that the coalition government is in disarray and in this case not able to agree in private contrary positions rather than play these out in public. National are spinning this sort of line every chance they get and it’s already tiresome.

    Coalition Divided National Says

    • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1

      Gotta love that so-called investment approach.

      Cut their dole in half, then when their lives are completely fucked, encase them in wrap-around SERCO.

      National Ministers avoided RNZ like the plague for nine years. There must be a long list of questions to ask them 😈

    • alwyn 6.2

      ” while Todd Barclay had a two-month European holiday at taxpayer expense. “.
      I used to have respect for Hill as an interviewer.
      She seems to have gone over the edge though.
      If she is going to take that line why did she pick on Barclay?
      Why didn’t she ask about all the other MPs who left Parliament, either voluntarily or because they got dumped by the voter?
      Is Metiria Turei still collecting her salary from Parliament?
      Is Peter Dunne?
      Is Chester Borrows still getting paid?
      Is Annette King still at the trough?
      etc, etc, etc.
      Barclay is not on holiday at taxpayer expense.
      He is spending his own money.
      What utter crap from Kim Hill.

      • Barclay is not on holiday at taxpayer expense.

        He was not in parliament for two months while still being paid by the taxpayer for being in parliament. And his constituents couldn’t get in to see him either.

      • marty mars 6.2.2

        It is a fact alwyn – he is a trougher – and he has been caught slurping like a wee porcine.

      • adam 6.2.3

        Are you really that stupid alwyn? So King, Dunne, etc worked up till they left.

        Only your boy, the corporate lapdog for the tobacco industry, with a fetish to record conversations and bully women – was the one living it up, off the public purse.

        Or as mary mars so succinctly put it

        “It is a fact alwyn – he is a trougher – and he has been caught slurping like a wee porcine.”

        • alwyn

          Are you really that stupid adam?

          King’s office was closed immediately the voting in the election was over.
          Within about a week she had got a job with the Auckland City Council.
          Meanwhile she is still getting her salary as an MP. It doesn’t finish until 23 December after all. Just like Barclay and all the other MPs who are no longer there.

          Dunne also ceased having anything to do with Parliament on election day.
          He is also still being paid.

          At the worst you can claim that Barclay left the country on 19 September, 4 days before the election.
          That is certainly nothing at all like 2 months taxpayer paid holiday, is it?
          Don’t be so bloody stupid in future.

          • Draco T Bastard

            He took the holiday before he left the country.

            That other stuff probably has something to do with needing to be available during the change-over from one government to another.

            • alwyn

              That certainly wasn’t the story that the Herald was talking about, and which was the thing Hill was strewing around.
              Have a read of it. It is here

              The critical bits are here
              “In September Barclay said he was moving to London to look for job opportunities.
              Since then Barclay has posted photos to social media of him and companion Kristy Martin enjoying some time off with a two-month tour of Europe’s most envied destinations.”

              and here
              “Barclay, the former MP for Clutha-Southland, left New Zealand on September 19 – just 4 days before the election.
              He met Martin and the pair travelled through Italy, Croatia and Greece – taking selfies along the way.
              The trip included St Peter’s Basilica and Trevi Fountain in Rome, Florence and the seaside villages of Cinque Terre, and Gondola rides in Venice.
              In Croatia the pair enjoyed the old walled city of Dubrovnik and the seaside village of Split. After that it was on to Athens in Greece before relaxing in the sun on the picturesque island of Mykonos.”
              The claims are definitely about the period AFTER the election when he was a free man again.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Open and Transparent Double Dipton and the Ten Thousand Texts. Coming soon to a theatre near Alwyn.

          • adam

            Stupid did respond, and got prizes for seconds.

            Oh dear alwyn desperate to make shit up, has to now claim that convention is wrong. But, here the thing, people want smooth transitions in changes of government so this is how it rolls.

            But your boy , the corporate lapdog for the tobacco industry, with a fetish to record conversations and bully women – was effectively MIA for some time. About two months before the election, then did nothing for the transition.

            So your boy is a trougher, a bully and lazy to boot.

  6. Morrissey 7

    No. 16: Sir Richard Branson

    This just in….

    “His behaviour was disgusting. I feel like it was sexual assault,” she said. “We were by the bar and he was saying bye to everyone. He came up to me and put his face in my breasts. He went ‘brrrrrr’ and just walked away. It was surreal, totally out of the blue. Joss and I were like, ‘What the hell was that?!’ Everyone was wondering why I wasn’t angry because I’m usually a firebrand. But I was just too shocked.”

    Evidently this rich prick has been getting away with assaulting young women for generations now….

    In the 1990s, two Virgin employees accused Branson of sexual ­harassment. PR boss Elizabeth Hlinko claimed in 1996 that he groped her breasts at a party at his country home two years earlier, after he sprayed champagne over her. It was thrown out.

    Two years later Lorna Brissett-Romans alleged that Branson “grabbed her buttocks” at a party in a Palm Beach club. That claim was also dismissed.

    “GROPERS” is presented by GroperWatch, a division of Daisycutter Sports Inc.

    No.1 George Herbert Walker Bush; No. 2 Bill O’Reilly; No. 3 Al Franken; No. 4 Robin Brooke; No. 5 Lester Beck; No. 6 Arnold Schwarzenegger; No. 7 Joe Biden; No. 8 Rolf Harris; No. 9 Harold Bloom; No. 10 Sir Jimmy Savile; No. 11 Dr Morgan Fahey; No.12 Prince Harry; No. 13 Bill Clinton; No.14 Judge Roy Moore; No.15 Matt Lauer

    • Morrissey 7.1

      The old groper Branson does have his supporters in this country. They tend to congregate in one place….


      • greywarshark 7.1.1

        Please do not put up links to kiwiblog Morrissey. If you want to get your feet dirty you’re welcome but just report back please.

        • Morrissey

          Sorry, greywarshark. I hope you survived the experience without suffering any ongoing trauma. For anybody else who cannot bear the thought of paying a visit, here’s the comment I pointed out, by one “realityczech”:

          Morris Dancer, those money grubbing whores are a disgrace and an insult to women who have suffered real sexual assaults.

          They should be tossed into the high security wing of a prison as meat for the inmates

          Encouragingly, he does come under some fire from some of the regulars.

          Too extreme for Kiwiblog? Go to Whale Oil.

          • greywarshark

            Thanks Morrissey, I don’t feel strong enough to be a recipient of the minds that frequent KB and WO, and know that they are just a symptom of what I should be looking at and thinking about. So if you have the guts to go there and report back, it will be a great help as one ought to have some idea of the roiling morass there.

            • halfcrown

              Grey, Agree with that but remember they are brave souls visiting those places. The stench gets to me.
              The last time I visited Farrar’s site the bit that made me grin was, any comment doesn’t matter how stupid it is providing it is a rightwing or anti the left got a thumbs up, whereas any leftish comment always has lots of thumbs down irrespective if it was a good valid point of view or not.

    • greywarshark 7.2

      Are you being unfair to men Morrissey? There have been some female Gropers – we should be fair in our condemnation.

    • halfcrown 7.3

      Not fun loving, tax avoiding corporate beneficiary Sir Richard.
      Sir Richard loved by all for his “daring” death-defying Balloon flights and Rocket ships./sarc

    • Bea Brown 7.4

      Dementia often means lack of inhibition. Bush is a very old man, in a wheelchair. He is reported to be in ill-health with signs of dementia. It is perhaps unfair and a little bit cruel to include him in your list.
      Or are you targeting old white men which seems to be all the rage these days?

      • joe90 7.4.1

        Or are you defending vile old white men who sexually assault children which seems to be all the rage these days?.

        Oh that’s right, you’re one of the sewer filth who defended a vile youngish white man who couldn’t keep his hands off children’s hair.

  7. “Water wars” are now swiftly approaching , as we are seeing the beginning of this now in HB.

    TPP11 will allow the wholesale taking of all of our aquifer residential community groundwater in future as the operators of the TPP will take nover control of our government’s both local and central who will be powerless to stop this from happening.

    Here are the real facts of Napier water shortage, – it is not because of residential over-use, it is because of two separate bottling plants over-extraction of water from our aquifer read below please, I called the news desk earlier on this issue.

    The extraction of our water is so large now that 250 trucks a day are being used to move export water through the port of napier for export and not one cent is given back to us for this taking of our water.

    “Free foreign water bottling extraction policy” – is now coming home to roost.


    Two overseas owned large bottling companies Two years ago these global companies were given consent to use “deep well aquifer extraction of tax free water.

    I have been a resident of Napier since 1951 and property owner since 1974, and have never had any water issues like this before during this time, 1974 to 2017.

    The blame for municipal low water uptake is because these overseas companies now are draining our HB plains aquifer systems using “deep well extraction’ now municipal water supplies are suffering depleted “shallow well extraction” as a result.

    Blame the municipal Council and their regional council’s both for this current issue of a lack of water now so Napier Mayor Bill Dalton should not be blaming the residents for the shortage, but start blaming the bottling companies he allowed to take our free water in the first place.

    • james 8.1

      again, How about something to back up your facts – because the seem to be quite different from the experts


      • alwyn 8.1.1

        Wasting your time I’m afraid James.
        “cleangreen” is not one who lets a few facts get in the way of his fantasies.
        He just repeats his rant over and over again.

    • greywarshark 8.2

      Thanks for background cleangreen about HB. Profit from selling a valuable resource needed by the people that through mendacious political manoeuvring has been set outside legal controls is behind this bottled water scam. And unfettered capitalism is behind the agreement to enable this profit. It is an act of treachery of predatory businessmen and women to the NZ public really.
      Perhaps there should be cardboard cutouts of these mendacious people set up in the streets for people to throw rotten tomatoes at.

      Unfettered capitalism is like a sport and we know that you can never have enough sport and the whole mind of fans is concentrated on the next contest and the personalities and tactics involved. Meanwhile the rest of the population have to work their way round the affected who have to be carefully managed so they don’t harm others, and suffer limited harm themselves, while they pursue their fervent focus on their goals.

      If we could only take this view to our present situation it would give us the perspective we need to go forward with into our already difficult future.

      I note that there was a giant fire in Ashburton of one of the feedlot companies pellets. That must have taken a lot of water, which would be going to a firm that caters for those industrial farmers overstocking and irrigating. It will end up that they have used up all the water available and residents will have to buy water for drinking and have cactus gardens and no lawns.

      • cleangreen 8.2.1

        Alwyn is parnering James now; – how nice,

        ‘Two peas in a pod’ – of non-believers that ‘water wars are iminent’

        Just as TPP11 is about to take over our government!!!!!!

        Well I guess both are national propagandists also?

        James nonsence producing a flimbsy stuff report as it is incomplete as DV showed.

        Come in HB for some learning skills on what is going on under our HB aquifers sunshine and see the very low water level as horticulture uses massive amounts more and more HBRC has to lower the ‘allowable’ level of our rivers now.

        Does Stuff report on this? NO NO NO.

        Is that enough information now for you, as I said Commercial users are “deep well extraction” while municipal supply is only shallow bore extraction.


        In both your cases equals no clues.

        • adam

          james and alwyn a regular little ‘hate in’.

        • savenz

          We have the climate change deniers and now maybe we have a new breed of water change deniers like James and Alwyn.

          Yes ‘science’ told us climate change was all a myth too.

          • james

            again – you guys got anything to back up your comments about the cause – After all I linked experts that say something totally different – and you guys are supporting a faceless person on the internet who has nothing to back it up.

            • savenz

              You don’t some paper to work out giving away water for free to overseas companies to profit from and pollute the world with plastic bottles is wrong.

              Maybe if those overseas countries could not get bottled water or it was very expensive they might have to clean up the pollution and waterways in their own country – which actually might also help the poorer local people overseas who can’t afford bottled water.

              win win on all levels.

      • cleangreen 8.2.2

        Thanks Greywarshark,

        For Alwyn + James ‘benefit’ they may wish to know that horticulture in Gisborne as in HB is also extracting massive amounts of water from their aquifers also.

        for instance last winter the aquifer level was so low that the GDC are now deep well injecting the aquifer to refill/sustain it for now.

        The GDC council really are unsure how long this will hold out, because what Alwyn + James, or Stuff dont know or report about, is the massive use that vineyards water use now as this amount apparently dwalfs residenial use both in HB/Gisborne.

        There are many sides to this water issue, & no one is really monitoring/study adequately this issue as they should have better ways of control and that also correctly includes the regional councils.

    • savenz 8.3

      +1 CleanGeen. You know you are onto something important when they trolls come out in force against you.

      • cleangreen 8.3.1

        Well, one must ‘assume’ that they are well paid propagandists for ‘those’ they represent eh savenz?

        Note they seem to overtly trust the ‘media’???

        Where are their scientific references???????

        That sends deep suspicion to me immeadiately.

        • savenz

          You don’t need science or reports to work out giving away our water is wrong – you used to just need a functioning brain.

          Increasingly people seem to rely on paper rather than what’s before them.

          We have fables around similar themes so sounds like stupidity and social facilitation has been an issue throughout human civilisation.

          Emperor’s new clothes.
          The Golden goose.

          • cleangreen

            yes james is truly a paid troll.

            • james

              a false accusation. I am not paid for my comments.

              Would appreciate you withdrawing that statement.

              • savenz

                What about Alwyn? Funny I notice that the right wingers always come out with trolling against economic resources debate or government budgets like defence and SIS, but don’t bother with other issues.

                Even if you eat and breathe National, surely you can work out it doesn’t really make sense to bugger up the water in a country for maybe a 5 – 10 gain and then have a massive problem on your hands when suddenly the industry that relied on it can’t get it? It should be worked on by everyone.

                • alwyn

                  I don’t remember ever commenting about the defence or SIS budgets
                  And I never Troll. That is unless you have an unusual definition of “troll”.
                  If you mean it is making comments that expose the fallacies in your claimed facts or argument I suppose I might qualify. It isn’t what most people mean though by the description though.
                  If you stick to the facts, as the phrase in Stan Freberg’s parody of Dragnet put it, “Just the facts, ma’am”, I wouldn’t need to correct you would I?

              • greywarshark

                You really are a twit James. Can’t you find someone to pay you? National Party RWs don’t respect people who do things altruistically.
                Your in danger of losing respect from both sides of the political divide.

              • James;

                So you must do it for free love then, you are presenting clearly as national troll.

                Alwyn does have something to offer as a couple of days ago I remanked how I agreed with him on some points.

                But you just always rubbishing everything others say.

                Read my post earlier please, and learn some tolerance for others and some compassion too.

                You will learn that you can influence others that way not your combatant manner you show now.

                “Slowly slowly catchie monkey.”

      • james 8.3.2

        not really coming out in force against him – just asking for something to back up his “FACTS” – so far we got nothing.

  8. Sabine 9

    driving to Te Kuiti yesterday, passing by a little stream full with Cows.

    I mean, i can’t fault the cows for standing in the water, it was a hot day, and with all the trees removed – it’s as if farmers are personally offended by trees – there is nowhere for the beasts to cool down or find some shade.

    but aren’t there some laws that farmers are supposed to upheld in regards of cows hanging out in streams and rivers? or is that an optional thing?

    • weka 9.1

      you can phone your local regional council and report them. Photos will help. Depending on the council there may or may not be bylaws in place. But having the public lodging complaints may help the council sort their shit out so to speak.

      • Sabine 9.1.1

        i was just surprised. And must admit, i could understand the cows.

        Its just after Bennydale there is a little stream running along that you can see from the highway.

        Literally about 20 of them huddled there in the heat. Can’t find a fault with the cows. I can’t even understand how it is legal to have these poor beasts fry in the heat without any shade anywhere.

        • weka

          I feel for the cows too, and all the people pushing to have all waterways fenced off need to understand that that will increase animal cruelty, because that’s our farming culture.

          • solkta

            Those wanting waterways fenced off are not responsible for farmers refusing to plant trees. Shade would provide more relief for cows.

            • Sabine

              They should not rip the trees out in t he first place.

              Go have a look how a ‘dairy conversion’ happens. It’s rip out everything, leave a landscape that looks like its been nuked for a few month it seems, burn huge piles of wood/roots etc, then start irrigating, fertilizing, sowing and do that every few month.

              Its atrocious. Its ugly, and considering that butter is 7$ the pound, and milk is somewhere around 5 – 6 $ the two liter it’s obviously not to our benefit.

              I have pity for the cows, but can’t give a dime about these ‘managers’ that run ‘a milk extraction service’. They are not farmers, they don’t care for the land, and if the work gets in the too hard basket, or if the price is right the ‘farm’ will be sold of to the highest bidder.

            • weka

              Nevertheless, from an animal welfare perspective, pushing to fence waterways without pushing first to transform farming, means we will have more animal cruelty.

              And from a sustainability perspective, pushing single solutions (like fencing waterways) without addressing why those animals are standing in the water in the first place, means we end up with poor design and a shifting set of problems.

        • David Mac

          The majority of farmers I speak to are actively involved in addressing these issues. Shame the stragglers. Pin a photo up in the local 4 square with a caption ‘Whose place is this? Please sort your shit out.’

          • Sabine

            drive from Bennydale to Te Kuiti coming from Whakamaru you will see that there is not one fence post nor a meter of electric single wire wasted to fence anything.

            Must be not cost effective.

            • David Mac

              Lots and lots of waterways with open access to stock is well wrong. Flax thrives next to waterways and a cow can’t get through mature tightly planted stands of it. Their fibrous prolific roots will assist with filtration from paddocks.

              I visited a working Swedish dairy operation in Winter. For half of the year, every cow in her own stall, hand fed and toileted in a toasty warm barn. We don’t know how lucky we are.

              • Sabine

                nope nothing there, just a stream and an over fertilized grazing paddock.

                I guess that even planting flax is in the too hard basket, and besides it takes place away for grazing.

                I am part of a gardening forum and a few weeks ago some guy asked about cutting down Hazelnut shrubs and Walnut trees as it would make for good grazing land. He inherited a Nut Orchard. Guess he must be a farmer then 🙂

      • Macro 9.1.2

        hmmm its the cows shit we should be worrying about. 🙂
        Waikato Regional Council is the body responsible – They are mostly controlled by farmers unsurprisingly – so their response and action on water quality has been patchy at best.
        No significant change over a 4 year period. 2011 – 2015.

        • weka

          I was implying that the cows’ shit is the council’s responsibility 😉

          Does WRC have bylaws on stock in water? Some councils do.

          • Macro

            WRC run by Farmers having regulations wrt stock in waterways!! What do you think?
            Here is what they have to say about stock in waterways:

            Fencing streams and rivers
            Preventing stock access to waterways, such as streams and rivers, is an important part of good farm management. Fencing waterways helps prevent stock losses and injuries in waterways, and can save you money. For example, the loss of a cow worth $1000 in a waterway is equivalent to the cost of fencing about 650 metres of stream edge with a single wire electric fence. Find out about the different options for fencing waterway margins.

            my bold.
            The Waikato – along with Manawatu has some of the most fetid rivers in the country. The Waihou one of the longest rivers in the country running from close to Taupo and which discharges into The Firth of Thames carries massive amounts of nitrates, phosphates, and soil matter along with all manner of other crap and dumps it into a shallow basin that is the breeding ground for one of NZ’s most favoured fish – Snapper. Two other smaller rivers even more polluted also discharge into the Firth. But the greatest is the Waihou. On a Wednesday morning I used to go and help with a group from Forest and Bird on a wetland restoration on the banks of the Waihou. When Cook arrived in NZ it was Xmas time when he anchored in The Firth at Waiomu (about 10km north of the town of Thames) – he named it the Thames because it reminded him of the Thames in England.. Cook took a pinnace and sailed up the Waihou and in his journal he noted that the river on each side was ablaze with the flower of the Pohutakawa. We have been attempting to reestablish some of those trees, now long removed, back. As you drive over the new Waihou bridge (Thankyou John Key) you will see the heads of the Ngaio planted as nursery trees popping their heads above the mangroves. The pohutakawa are slowly establishing themselves – whether they will grow sufficiently and flower before inundation by SLR is of course mute. You think globally and act locally.

            • marty mars

              The descriptions of cooks journey up the Waihou are awesome and absolutely heartbreaking.

              Good work on the restoration.

              • Macro

                It’s a great part of the country marty and well deserving of its Ramsar designation
                From the Kerepehi Peat Dome with its unique “fred the thread” the thinnest caterpillar in the world that lives in the stem of the Giant Cane Rush that grows there, and the remnant of what was once the wetland that covered the Hauraki Plains.
                To the Miranda bird sanctuary where you can view godwits, dotterel, kotuku, royal spoonbill, pied stilts, and heaps more. And as you drive through Thames if you stop at the wharf for fish n chips or and ice cream and are lucky you might be fortunate to see our resident kotuku feeding on the banks of the Kahurangi river as it empties into the Firth. Just up the road past the Shopping mall you can take a walk along the walkway beside the mangroves, and again, if your luck is in, chance upon a banded rail scurrying into the undergrowth. The drive up the coast (If an out of towner) or down the coast if you lived here all your life 🙂 at this time of the year has to be one of the greatest pleasures ever. The pohutakawas are now out and by xmas will be in full bloom. A narrow road, which was initially a bullock track, has the trees overhead and is simply glorious. As you leave the town at Kuranui Bay if the tide is in and the oyster catchers are not off catching oysters elsewhere you will be treated to a scene of thousands of birds congregating on the beach. Sometimes there are so many that the beach is just covered with birds – about 200 metres and more 10 metres wide. A little further up the road just past Tairua beach there is a special rock where a group of caspian terns love to congregate. Also along the road the local cormorant population (several hundred) like to hang out on the small rocks offshore and discuss the days fishing.
                This road is one of those threatened by SLR, and when there is a full tide and storm surge it is awash. One day in the future this road will be no more. We will cannot say we leave this world a better place when that happens.

        • tc

          Raglan has raw sewage flowing into the harbour periodically they’ve admitted they can’t resolve as the residents have had their feet to the fire…..probably because the cost’s too high.

          So you’ve got a seaside town that’s at capacity already and infrastructure unable to cope before the summer crush hits.

          100% NZ Pure council ineptitude and negligence and a good case for legislative oversight of these cosy council clubs as they’re failing ratepayers.

          • weka

            What are you thinking in terms of legislative oversight?

            • tc

              A device so that councils who don’t maintain basic infrastructure like water/sewage get sacked and put into administration.

              Then we’d find out what’s really going on as mine’s trying to withdraw library services currently and moans that it has a single grader for all of the waikato metal roads.

              Against a backdrop of extra ratepayers (more rural residential properties) rising rates per property and overall falling service levels everyone is now asking WTF is going on.

              Did anything come out of the water treatment plant debacle in Northland ? No ? More signs of a broken system unaccountable to ratepayers.

              • weka

                “A device so that councils who don’t maintain basic infrastructure like water/sewage get sacked and put into administration.”

                I’d prefer to see a new election. Because we know that National will misuse that to rig councils to their values.

                Re libraries etc, I think that’s because of National’s reforms of local body legislation i.e. less focus on providing services that are deemed not essential (yes, I know). Might be good for the new govt to look at that next year.

              • savenz

                +1 TC – the councils are in real trouble. They have become a law unto themselves and about process not results. At the same time often their salary is rising above the national average and they need so much money for PR! $64 million approx in Auckland for PR and 85% disapproval rating for Auckland council. Doing a good job seems to be less important that their rising salaries and spin. Not working.

                I’m. a bit cautious abut the administration idea, though because that is what National did and it is against democracy. I’d like to see the CEO structures gone and more democracy in action not less.

                • tc

                  National got the result they wanted so time this clutching at pearls routine was put aside IMO for whatever works.

                  The right team dropped in with a mandate and brief is what the RWNJ’s fear most as the truth will come out. The existing system covers butts and protects the enablers.

                  I believe we are beyond caution as shits flowing all over this country now so time to change the rules and play a different game.

                  • savenz

                    Yes but some of the shit is from the 300,000+ pa immigration (scam), working visa for fake degrees and tourism industry… more people, more shit. I can’t understand why people can understand that cows shit, but don’t seem to understand that people shit too.

                    Apparently all these people help the economy (we know this because neoliberalism tells us this) but clearly it’s not being gathered as per user pays style from the new ‘demand’ side in enough quantities and invested in cleaning up all the new shit that’s being created

                    • savenz

                      Funny enough new people also seem to need to travel places too, so therefore need new public transport and roads. Again does not seem to be a way to gather that in sufficient quantities from the ‘demand’ side to pay for all the new infrastructure needed.

                • greywarshark

                  It seems that Councils have been getting too big for their boots since the general competency limiting their borrowing level was raised. Now all these puffed up self-promoting men and women can get in and have their way with the poor helpless ratepayers and build monuments to suit themselves and their mates with our money.

                  I don’t know if anyone has access to these people but they seem to provide a useful service in plain language.
                  Local AuthoritiesLaw in NZ – 7 major developments – Online Insider NZ
                  insider.thomsonreuters.co.nz › 2012 › March › Legal
                  Mar 15, 2012 – The Local Government Act 2002 introduced a power of general competence to replace the former legal position that all actions of local authorities required specific authorisation or were necessarily incidental to authorised purposes. The ultra vires rule has largely been displaced by the new powers, except …

                  Property Council New Zealand Incorporated – that sounds large.
                  A report from it on Councils, development contributions etc.
                  PDF]development contributions – Parliament
                  PROPERTY COUNCIL NEW ZEALAND INCORPORATED (at the address for service given …. general competence. Local authorities tend to define the power of general competence to suit whatever outcome individual councils desire at the time. … government, in respect to borrowing, and, in particular, borrowing to meet.

                  Local Government Act 2002

                  I haven’t time to read all this stuff. Perhaps Alwyn and James could do so and that would give them enough information and ammunition to fire at us to last for yonks. They would be doing something useful then.

          • Ad

            Wait for the report coming out this week on the Hawkes Bay water poisoning.

            It’s going to be a doozy.

            Pretty hard to sue a Council, unless the smoking gun us really good.

            The Hawkes Bay case looks like a good one to try.

            • cleangreen

              Thanks Ad,

              Look at what happend to me in my post back on

              I live now up in the hills out of the city and have spring water coming right out from the urawereas and have had the quallity tested for poisoning and it it stated as the best quality water the laboratory had ever seen.

              Now when I leave this “safe place” and return to napier I take sevel carboys of it home for my drinking water, as I get terribly sick drinking napier municipal water now, as said here
     I am chemically sensitised after chemical poisoning, and it tastes toxic to me also.

              I grew up in Napier in the 50s and 60s and used to drink the water then, and then it was fine, but it smelled a bit of shells (pipi’s) so now with my medical sensitivity my body tells me that today’s napier water is not safe to me at least.

              Napier Mayor Dalton has doped the whole water supply system up now with the toxic chemical chorine so I am not able medically to consume chorine in line with my medical doctor advice.

              Our whole NZ water system is terring on a time bomb.

              National have left a dirty water supplly for us to deal with now.

  9. eco maori 10

    The positive think about these people wasting there time harassing me is they won’t have time to harass young innocent young people and lock them up Ana to kai

  10. joe90 11

    Marvelous put down.

    The encouraging news is that if Ben Shapiro is the sharpest thinker among millennial conservatives, millennial leftists don’t have too much to worry about. You may feel as if Shapiro is a Vaporizer of Poor Logic, the Aristotle of our time. You may feel as if he has brutally torn apart every person who has crossed him in public, through his tried and tested technique of speaking extremely quickly until they give up. You may feel that he is brilliant and thoughtful and sincere.

    But before you treat these feelings as real, remember that annoying little fact about facts: They don’t really care how you feel.


    btw, dude’s prolific AF, too

  11. Rosemary McDonald 12

    Robert Love. Activist. Hero.


    “On one visit to the home, Mr Love arrived to find his mother shivering under a thin blanket in a urine-soaked bed. Her room was cold, the window was wide open and the call bell out of her reach.

    Mr Love told Nine to Noon he repeatedly raised his concerns with the Waikato District Health Board, the Health and Disability Commissioner and the Health Ministry.

    However, he said he had only one reply, which was from the DHB, assuring him there was no need to take the matter further.”

    Robert Love, having received no support from the official body responsible for monitoring the health system, the Health and Disability Commission made a complaint, at his own expense, under the Consumer Guarantees Act.

    He was awarded $10,000, which he has donated to a fund set up with Consumer New Zealand so others can access $$$ to make their own complaint.

    With all the other shit that has gone on in our Public Health and Disability system over the past 18 years this incident stands out as an exemplar of just how successful those neo liberals have been in their mission to send us down the path of privatisation.

    I am hopeful that with the ‘resignation’ of the disaster that is Chai Chuah and David Clark’s ‘commitment’ to rehabilitating our health and disability system….


    …that there will be positive changes.

    What would make me happy is hearing Labour acknowledge/admit that the decline of our public health and disability system continued under their watch in the 2000-2008 period.

    • savenz 12.1

      Health and Disability Commission is a waste of time. The NZ government gets way with the ‘appearance’ of a body for complaints but essentially are just a way to put complaints into a time warp of paper so that the complainant gives up.

      Not only do the various NZ complaint agencies just strip money off the system and full of IYI (intellectual idiot class). These organisations are full of the Paula Rebstock school of a lovely report that costs a bomb, is all about the ‘process’ and not the result, and produces a well written report full of 1/2 truths from the paper ‘investigation’ by people who are not actually investigators and normally just bureaucrats lasting over 1 year. Some of the worst serial killers (aka Harold Shipman in the UK) are actually medical staff and get away with it because our system can’t seem to use practical faculties anymore but rely on someone else in a “process”.

      Good on the person for going further and getting justice. Hope a wake up call to the Health and Disability Commission who don’t do a good job protecting people from mistakes in the health system and so therefore their subsequent improvement.

      • adam 12.1.1

        The Health and disability commission are worse than a waste of time. They are quite destructive to people who complain to them. People expect them to listen and take action, they don’t.

        And if you actually get lucky and they do do somthing, the whole process they have is humiliating, deflating, tiresome, and eventually – futile.

        Must say well done Mr Love, what a hero.

        Thanks for putting up the link Rosemary McDonald

    • greywarshark 12.2

      Makes me think that there is no Health Ministry but a Health Misery.
      savenz as 12.1 talks about the type of reports that are made and refers to Paula Rebstock who hasn’t yet been made a Dame I think but is of the ilk. Wealthy con-people who understand the neolib disease and how to mask it and sell this to willing buyers in the western world at great expense.

  12. Truly correct here savenz,

    As I was disabled in 1992, and in june this year i asked if there was any treatment for my disability.

    We got a letter back in June that they at Disability services have advised they have no treatment for my chemical poisoning.

    The accident occurred in 1992 which has left me disabled ever since then.

    I am hoping that the new government will make disability services more reasonable now and cover their role under the “UN Rights of the disabled convention” charter the government signed in 2013.

    • adam 13.1

      Don’t hold your breath cleangreen. Don’t hold your breath.

      • savenz 13.1.1

        Just know you are not alone, Clean Green.

      • cleangreen 13.1.2

        Thanks adam check my post on

        I have been throught the mill already in Canada on Disability and toadys Herald front page tells the same story of another guy screwed by the ‘stystem ‘and toxic chemicals too.

        He only got exposed top trichoroethelene.

        I got exposed to that and 16 others also, along with formaldehyde and other aldehydes, mixed with TDI, MDI, HDI. all very toxic, along with all alkanes like toluene and all manner of phenols.

        The Toxicologist said he could have made any type of mass extermination poison from all the combinations.

    • marty mars 13.2

      + 1 cleangreen and all the best for you and your whānau

  13. joe90 14

    But her emails!

    New from Moore campaign touting Trump's endorsement and phone call: "The President wrapped up the call with a "go get 'em, Roy!" pic.twitter.com/ANVbt7Xa2T— Elaina Plott (@elainaplott) December 4, 2017

    Has any other president ever called a child molester from Air Force One to offer words of encouragement? This is probably a first for America right? We can just assume that, correct? That Donald Trump is the first president to call a child molester on Air Force One? Ok good.— Travon Free (@Travon) December 4, 2017

    Embattled Alabama Republican Senate candidate Roy Moore said in an interview released Monday that he’s learned while running for Senate that “immorality has sunken to a new low,” citing political advertisements run by his Democratic opponent, Doug Jones.

    “I think immorality has sunken to a new low. And I think in this race I have been very much impressed with the lack of morality in political advertisements. They say anything, they do anything just to win,” Moore said in an interview with One America News Network.


    • Sabine 14.1

      But but, she was not a good girl. Just the girl of a single mothers with custody issues. Also, Pussy grabbing is good especially if it is a young pussy, a virginal pussy, a pure pussy. Also, it was her fault for being pretty, and a girl, and for not complaining, and and and. Also, some girls have to be the whores as all the others are virgins will be married off as soon as possible so as to avoid sin. And we all know that boys will be boys even when they are old farts.
      Besides, he is a better man right now – married and all. Surely.



      I have absolutely no pity for the men and women who voted for this shit, i have no pity for any men who could just not vote for the she devil cause women with power give them small penis anxiety, i have no pity for anyone who voted Jill Fucking Stain, that libertarian dude or wrote in Jedi- men or women, i only have pity for the women who desperately voted for HRC, who voted for access to abortion, access to birth control, access to education, access to bodily control, access to to earning power and a career, i have pity for the young girls that will be turned in breeding cows if white and prison fodder if not white without ever knowing what was taken from them . All the others i have no pity for, they will get what they fucking voted for or even worse did not vote for at all cause ‘purity’ and other assorted shit. My they die of blue balls, taxed into poverty, nuked into oblivion. ‘But her fucking emails’.

  14. Ad 15

    Free study for everyone from next year, for first year.

    No age restrictions.

    Apprentices get two years free.

    80,000 people starting off a new life, aiming for higher productivity.

    My kind of government.

    • adam 15.1

      You should do a piece Ad, it is very good news from this government.

      Especially the apprentices getting two years, stoked about that.

    • Sabine 15.2

      Now that is a better policy then ‘working for the dole’.

      • JanM 15.2.1

        Yes, it is very unfortunate that Shane Jones used this hopelessly out-dated concept to introduce what could be valid possibilities for young people caught in the poverty/unemployment trap. How about ‘field-based training’ in horticulture? As a retired early childhood education lecturer, I believe that field based training is the best anyway. Learn and apply – build on knowledge with practice.
        This way they have the opportunity to develop a body of skills and expertise which will carry them forward and give them a future and something to be proud of

      • savenz 15.2.2

        But once they do the course, what then? un or under employment or without enough to survive on? If there are no decent jobs being created (aka decent being the operative word) or no way to sustain people outside of employment aka universal benefit. Also what is the quality of the courses like, under National there has been a plethora of courses about getting bums on seats not the actual training or degree being of a world class standard.

        We can have builders but if they make leaky homes that are not fit for purpose?

        • JanM

          Of course the qualifications need to be decent, and of course there needs to be benefits for those who can’t work one way or another.
          I would suggest that horticulture in NZ is always going to be useful, and as for ‘decent jobs’ maybe there should be training and opportunities for developing businesses or community co-operatives of some kind as well. If the will is there, there are many opportunities. We have squandered the talents and energies of our young people for too long!

          • Sabine

            Horticulture, Nursing, Elder Care, Early Childhood Care, Hospitality, Building, Plumber, Sparkie, Gas Fitters, Solar Technicians etc etc etc they are all skills we need, lest we really make our self depended on bussed in temps, cause we are so untrained and without knowledge that we can barely answer a phone correctly.

        • Sabine

          Once they do the course they have a smidgen more of a chance then before.
          You can’t fix the world in one step. You can’t fix people in one step. You can however provide a hand, a stepping stone and more often then not, that is the only thing people need to to adjust their journey of life.
          so no i am not going to badmouth a policy that while not perfect is a big step in the right direction,.

          Learning a skill is better then state sanctioned slavery to provide tax payer funded labour to businesses that are to cheap to hire the staff they need at a decent wage.
          Skilled people can bargain, people on the dole – according Shane Jones- are not accorded such dignity.
          Besides, we need more skilled people not less.

  15. savenz 16

    New Zealand’s sea temperature swing largest in world

    The water temperature in the Tasman Sea is well above normal – a whopping 6degC more than average for the start of December.


  16. savenz 17

    What’s gonna happen when we bugger up the fresh water and take out industry while buggering up the sea too and take out the fishery industry?

    Where is the jobs and income then?

    There seem to be plenty of takers who want to take our resources as fast as we can give them or sell them cheaply away, and not much interest in addressing these issues.

    Not only that, but TPPA-11 also has IP clauses so even if NZ was going to get away from primary industry in the future, the trade deals make it much more difficult with the IP clauses to empower the existing quo in other areas like Information Technology.

    • David Mac 17.1

      We just need to make it profitable for farmers to turn cow chips into fish farm salmon pellets and catch the fish poo at the bottom of the holding tanks, turn it into friendly pasture fertilser and sell it back to the salmon pellet wealthy farmers.

      • Stuart Munro 17.1.1

        Not sure punters would like the flavor resulting from poo based pellets – no beta carotenes either – the salmon would look pretty pallid. What you need is an intermediate step that uses cow poo and cellulosic waste to feed amphipods like slaters or springtails. These contain the pinking compounds you see in shrimp.

        For the return phase better that the ponds are used for land based cropping in rotation – it breaks parasite cycles as well as utilizing the nitrogenous excess. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=

        • Nick

          Yes it will be good to feed poo pellets to the Slaters.

        • David Mac

          Ha, yes, I commented with my tongue in my cheek but I do think we need to find better ways of blending with the cycles of nature rather than clashing, mesh like a zip.

  17. ianmac 18

    Just went back to “On Demand” Question Time. Had thought that the Opposition would cause problems for the Government.
    I was wrong. Sterling performance from Jacinda and team. eg:

    “Question 2 – Bill English to the Prime Minister

    Does she stand by all her statements?”

    • McFlock 18.1

      jeez, billy no-mates was really phoning that one in. I’m sure I’ve seen him more animated than that.

      Surely he was trying to pit the statements of coalition partners against each other? I know that tories don’t understand how a coalition of equals works, but he could have put more oomph into it.

    • David Mac 18.2

      Ha! Yes, Jacinda left Bill with a Zorro ‘Z’ across his belly. Helenesque even.

    • Macro 18.3

      Excellent! And Mallard shut up extraneous nonsensical questions as well.

    • mary_a 18.4

      ianmac (18) … I missed Question Time today, so thanks for the link.

      Yep she’s good alright. Damn good. Made Blinglish look the foolish insipid twerp he is. Noticeable too was the Natz behind and Paula sitting beside him, weren’t looking too impressed at Jacinda’s fine responses to their leader’s questions!

      Could be sharpening knives time coming up soon! Wonder who’s got Bill’s back, now the creepy pony tail tugger has deserted the sinking ship?

  18. Muttonbird 19

    What a dreadful outcome.


    My parents used to take me walking the Cascades track as a child and I in turn took my children walking there often. Now we can’t.

    This is what happens when we leave the Nats in charge of conservation issues. The Nats idea of conservation starts and finishes with the conservation of money for their business mates.


  19. Macro 20

    Joe I think that Muttonbird is bemoaning the fact that because of penny pinching “conservation” policies the spread of Kauri dieback has been allowed to continue resulting in a loss of access to an iconic piece of NZ. Yes the Cascade Falls in the Waitakere’s is something many people will remember.

    However, as I have heard it Muttonbird, the main issue has been people not following requests to clean their footwear – and despite signage to keep to the tracks – going off track – and generally acting as idiots when there have been ample warning signs advising people of the dangers of spreading this disease. People have been told many times. There is only one way to limit the damage now and that is to deny access.

    • David Mac 20.1

      Yes, it’s jolly annoying being governed in a way that addresses the short-comings of the lowest common denominators, but what do you do?

      It doesn’t take many of us telling volunteer guardians of the forest requesting we step through a Shoe Sole Bath to jump in the lake before everyone’s fate is sealed.

      • Macro 20.1.1

        It doesn’t take many of us telling volunteer guardians of the forest requesting we step through a Shoe Sole Bath to jump in the lake before everyone’s fate is sealed.

        And that is just it.
        I was listening the other day to someone who was going to take his family for a walk along the coastal track from Stillwater to Okura not realising the track was closed because of Kauri Dieback. They were about to leave, when another family arrived. He pointed out to the other people that the track was now closed because of the disease – but they just went through the barriers! Unbelievable arrogance and stupidity.

    • Muttonbird 20.2

      My point is that with a bit of scientific grunt (and the backing with which to enable it) we should be able to beat PTA. New Zealand is celebrated as being at the head of agri-research and horticultural research which is exactly the kind of higher value service this country should be exporting instead of logs and milk powder.

      Spray stations are not a permanent solution and while people abusing them is a problem, as Joe90 said on another thread, blaming the public is shouting at the mouse (or something).

      The last government ummed and ahhed while the problem got worse by several factors and now there is an indefinite ban on walking in the forest.


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