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Open mike 05/06/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:30 am, June 5th, 2014 - 205 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

205 comments on “Open mike 05/06/2014 ”

  1. Jrobin 1

    It will be interesting to see if Jan Wright’s report on Fracking, and the disposal of fracking waste on landfarms, spurs on the Labour Party to get off the fence on this issue. Her report exposes the almost total lack of controls on the oil and gas industry. So much for World Class regulations, turns out fracking wells come under the same rulings as drilling wells for water!!??Nicky Kaye needs to take the food safety issues seriously too as cattle are grazing on chemical and oil product dumps. Fonterra have acknowledged the risks as they refuse to pick up milk produced on these landfarms. Simon Bridges also needs to be taken to task for his grovelling to oil industry lobby. Ok Labour where do you stand on these issues?

    • Tracey 1.1

      they will stand a little to the left of national.

      Jan wrights report will be in the growing pile of reports john key doesnt read…

      Mmp review
      Police report of john banks
      Report saying regs not good enough for mining and drilling

      • Pasupial 1.1.1

        I saw something Labour on Stuff last night, but can’t find it anywhere now (checked in both Politics and Environment).

        This in the ODT seems to be much the same quote:

        Labour’s Environment spokeswoman Moana Mackey said Dr Wright’s report concluded that while oil and gas drilling could be done safely, the oversight and regulation of the activity was inadequate, inconsistently applied and had not kept pace with the rapid advances in industry and technology.
        ”It is important we modernise our regulation of this industry to protect our environment, water aquifers and other industries that may be incompatible with a rapid local expansion in exploration,” Ms Mackey said.


        I’m with those calling for a moratorium on both fracking and “land-farming” (spreading the toxic waste byproducts on farmland). I also note that to say; “oil and gas drilling could be done safely”, you have to completely ignore the climate consequences of burning all those fossil hydrocarbons.

        • JK

          I thought “oil and gas drilling could be done safely” means – with the facts that oversight/regulation is inadequate etc – that its not likely to be done safely anywhere else in NZ and therefore cannot be done until these regulations etc are put in place. Which is similar to what Labour has been saying : which, in effect, is a different way of calling for a moratorium without actually spelling it out.

    • yeshe 1.2

      another report John Key won’t read .. this is a frightening issue requiring very bright public sunlight, particularly in NZ … and yes, it’s by reputable scientists even.


      And if you are not familiar with Mother Jones magazine … it is a trustworthy independent news source and well worth a visit imho.

  2. harre is on tvone breakast in a few mins..

    ..to talk about legalising pot..

    • Tiger Mountain 2.1

      Legalise it don’t criticise it Dept:
      Internet Party has definite appeal, Loomio helping with tech side and membership consultation. How long would Labours super at 67 last with this type of onto it approach?

      • karol 2.1.1

        What is innovative about Loomio? I was looking at the IP’s use of it yesterday. It just looked like an ordinary online forum focused on policy ideas.

        • phillip ure

          the innovation is more political..

          (..tho’ i do like the pie-graphs giving real-time readings of both the members’ views..and which percentage of those members have expressed their opinions on that policy..

          ..last nite 71% of members had voted..and were 80% in favour of legalisation..)

          ..giving members the best input on policy of any party i have seen/been involved with..

          ..you are against that karol..?

          ..and as already noted..how long to you think labours’ super-age raising policy wd last..

          ..should labour loomio their policies..?

          ..policy-making in most parties is top-down driven..

          ..and presented to members as a fait accomplit..

          ..and that is not democracy in action..

          ..so karol..there is yr ‘innovation’..eh..?..(and the pie-graphs/real-time collating/presenting of the moods..

          ..yr run-of-the-mill forums dont have that facility..

          ..it is like the tick-up/tick down used at the daily blog..on steroids..

          ..and has much to commend it..)

          • karol

            I’ve nothing against the discussion at all. Just asking about Loomio. I’ve used forums in the past that had real time polls running. So what’s innovative about Loomio? I keep hearing it’s some great new democratic innovation. i don’t see it as being any more democratic as a technology than any other forums.

            PS: My question is about Loomio. It has nothing to do with IP consulting with members to develop policy.

            • felix

              I was wondering the same thing. I heard Mike Williams on rnz the other day saying he’d seen the software teh IP was using and it was like nothing anyone could have imagined or some such waffle.

              In hindsight I suppose it is Williams. An internet forum is probably beyond his wildest dreams.

            • Colonial Viper

              Only thing that I can see is that it has some built in presentation tools that forum users can use in their posts and also they have more choices of action than the old fashioned internet forum polls eg in Loomio you can choose to record your abstention from a vote being taken

            • Ant

              Someone should build some software that catches all the Labour MP’s social media responses before they are published and vets them.

              • Draco T Bastard

                Either that or they should write a bot that makes Labour MPs social media responses for them 😈

                • Murray Olsen

                  I thought Textor Crosby already had written that bot, and NAct had paid for it.

            • Lanthanide

              On the face of it, you’re right, it’s not significantly different from other platforms.

              Basically it comes down to features and usability. I assume it allows the administrators to set up the site so that certain users can create ‘polls’, and other users can easily vote and comment on those polls, and it aggregates the results for each individual poll or set of polls into a standard, easy to use/view format. The ease and power with which this can be done mean that although the actual approach and idea is not actual new or revolutionary, because the software makes it so easy to do and manage, it can actually happen in practice and be used.

              Think of it like blogging software. It’s entirely possible to make your own blog, using standard HTML, but it’s much easier to go and use a blogging platform like WordPress that is specifically designed for it. It will have lots of helpful features and a standard administration panel. Because it’s standard, it’s easy to get help and support if you need it.

              Also what Draco and weka said.

              • karol

                I have been on forums before that have user-generated polls that appear in graphic formats with each new vote updating the graphic.

                Maybe the IP website version is slightly more useable. But not as reolutionary as I was expecting.

        • Draco T Bastard

          It’s significantly better than any previous forum discussions:
          1.) You can see how you’ve voted (Quite often I’ve gone onto a discussion in a forum and not remember how I’ve voted or why)
          2.) You can easily see everyone else’s arguments for or against
          3.) As arguments for/against are made the proposal can be changed becoming more representative
          4.) You can change how you’ve voted if the discussion hasn’t closed

          It’s dynamic enough that the final result should actually be a consensus.


          • weka

            Yes, the point is that it’s not just about discussion. The structures to enable decision making by groups is built in. You don’t have that on other forums. For people that don’t get it, have a look at some of the other groups using it and some of the trials that loomio did. They’re better examples of the point of loomio than the IPP one, which is a bit chaotic at the moment I think.

            Part of why loomio was set up was to enable real life groups to make decisions without having to all be in the same room at the same time. I don’t think it was primarily just about being another online discussion forum of people who didn’t know each other in RL.

      • phillip ure 2.1.2

        i agree on labour/super should they also loomio..

        ..and as harre noted..other parties should follow this new benchmark in democratic policy-making..

        ..they have now sent ‘the standard’..and i can’t see how the members of other parties will not demand similar policy input..from their leaders..turning policy from top-down to bottom-up can only enhance the democratic process..

        ..loomio rocks..!

        ..christie was his usual cliche-dripping/supercillious/sneering self..(dotcom string-pulling allegations spilling from his lips..)

        ..but harre handled him well..

        ..(and earlier:..smiling approvingly at pics of shane jones troughing in the pacific islands..as keys’ wingman..

        ..and commenting on his new sellout-reward job..

        ..christie said:..with nary a trace of cynicism/sarcasm:..

        “..he’s the perfect man for the job..”

        ..christie..staying on-message since whenever..

        ..i’ve been told christie does lip-puckering exercises in the studio before appearances there by key..

        ..and that key has said (admiringly) that christie has lips like a suction-cup..

        ..and is the best arse-kisser in the business..

      • Bearded Git 2.1.3

        Love the way Laila is surrounded by laptops and screens. Parody coming soon?

    • The Al1en 2.2

      I’d put money on it that weed won’t be legalised, and at best it’s 50/50 on decriminalising.

      Decriminalising however throws up the argument that it’s a go soft on the gangs who own the pot market, which is probably likely not going to go down to well with mainstream mum and dad kiwis.

      • minarch 2.2.1

        Decriminalisation is a bad idea & a half measure IMO

        Its causes disrespect for the law

        Eg “its still illegal, but were not going to do anything about it” just makes the law and its enforcers seem weak to me

        Its legalization is inevitable, almost every other resource on the planet has been exploited by the capitalist system for profit, what makes you think drugs wont eventually follow ?

      • Francis 2.2.2

        Decriminalising possession doesn’t necessarily mean decriminalising growing, selling, or distributing.

      • Populuxe1 2.2.3

        More to the point it’s an interesting stance given their partner Mana is of the opposite view

  3. Tiger Mountain 3

    Trade Me passes under a lot of radars and it is full of tory plonkers posting every ten minutes or so gems like “rumours are swirling that Philida Bunkle, Sandra Lee and Matt Robson are due to join IMP”! Some of it is obviously beyond rational comment.

    Yesterday though a poster put up the alleged latest Roy Morgan with National at 52.5%. http://www.trademe.co.nz/Community/MessageBoard/Messages.aspx?id=1434742&p=1&topic=7
    Others asked for a link having not been able to find it on the Morgan site. So was this a leak? Quite likely but we shall see very shortly.

    Chris Trotter on polls.

    • Tracey 3.1

      Chris trotter is basically saying that labour has blown both its feet off and wou ded everyone else on the left while doing it. That the labour party sees parties on the left as their enemy before national and ACT is beyond scarey…

      • phillip ure 3.1.1

        “..That the labour party sees parties on the left as their enemy before national and ACT is beyond scarey…”


        ..back in the 90’s @ uni doing politics..

        ..i argued that the rise of populism/calls for change from their left would eventually see labour embrace a grand coalition with the tories at some stage..

        ..and that they wd likely argue ‘stability’ as their meme to move on..

        ..i still stand by that argument..

        ..’cos the fact is that in any international ideological-spectrum visualisation..

        ..you can barely slide a playing card between tweedledum and tweedledee..

        ..with the end result for us being the neo-lib stasis we have laboured under for the last three decades..(pun intentional..)

      • srylands 3.1.2

        umm no it is rational,. How old are you? “Enemies”? FFS

        There are many in the Labour Party that have far more in common with their objectives than KDC, Lalalala, or R Norman. Why would they want that CF to succeed and then be thrown out of office in 2017 as it implodes.

        By running dead they (the ABCs) can take over Labour and win in 2017, probably getting at least 2 terms.

      • srylands 3.1.3

        The fact that you can see anyone in a country like New Zealand as an “enemy” is beyond scary.

    • Ant 3.2

      Labour seems to be letting the media dictate their responses again, and like clockwork they just get jumped on from another angle once they follow the path that has been laid out for them.

      It’s like they never learn that in being reactive like that, they’re always one step behind the game.

  4. amirite 4

    Dairy prices falling, 300 jobs on line at Stockton Mine – so much for the rockstar economy. It has officially passed out and choked on its own vomit.

    • Tracey 4.1

      oh come now, banks are all in profit, things are ok.

      • phillip ure 4.1.1

        ‘record’ profits..’record’-profits..too..!

        ..all of the looting-bastards are making ‘record-profits’..

        ..and let’s not forget that our $15bn billion annual deficit..is pretty much the same amount of foreign-profits sucked out of nz..each and every year..

        ..fix that..and you fix most things..

        • Draco T Bastard

          and let’s not forget that our $15bn billion annual deficit..is pretty much the same amount of foreign-profits sucked out of nz..each and every year.

          Yep. If we didn’t have that foreign ownership we’d be so much better off.

          • phillip ure

            this is where my partial-nationalisation idea comes into play..

            ..the people take a 51% controlling share in those banks/supermarket duopoly etc..

            ..the existing shareholders have that 51% share value paid out by a mix of initial payment..followed by installments from future profits..

            ..nothing..aside from their ability to continue to profiteer into the future..is taken/’stolen’ from those current shareholders..

            ..and each near brings those partial-nationalised entities closer to freehold/people-control..

            (..that takes care of half of that $15 billion..as 51% of those profits will now be returned to the people/customers..

            ..not sent to line the pockets of those foreign-owners..)

            ..and of course..having the peoples’-interests to the forefront will make it much easier to enact the raft food-regulations needed as part of the battle against the obesity epidemic that threatens to swamp out health-services/budgets..

            ..those bastards can no longer be allowed to just peddle sugar/salt/fat-laden crap disguised/marketed as ‘food’…

            ..the health-implications/outcomes from just allowing this state of the nation to continue..

            ..cannot be ignored..

          • srylands

            If we didn’t have that foreign ownership we would be Zimbabwe.

            • Draco T Bastard

              Wow, is that all you’ve got?

              Of course we wouldn’t. We’d be significantly better off than we are now as we’d be able to afford a hell of a lot more.

        • Gosman

          I’ve asked you to provide a reference for that claim but you haven’t done so. Where did you get the figures on repatriation of profits from?

          • McFlock

            same offer as I made a while ago – I’ll do your research for you if you make a plausible case that you actually give a shit…

            • Gosman

              I give a shit about lots of things McFlock. I give a shit about stopping damaging leftist economic policies as proposed by Mr Ure ever being implemented here in NZ.

              • Draco T Bastard

                It’s the right-wing policies that are damaging. Unfortunately, our left-wing parties still follow the same delusional BS.

                • srylands

                  We have a socialist Government in office in New Zealand. What right wing policies?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    What’s this “we” business, you’re a frickin foreigner Shitlands who has never even been here.

                    As for “socialist governments” well of course all government is socialist to you, but you are an extremist after all.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    The selling of our assets, the damping down of the RMA so that more damage can be done to the environment, the chasing of profit over everything else. The list goes on.

              • McFlock

                If that were true you’d actually contribute something useful. Rather than just wanking and demanding people spoonfeed you facts.

      • Colonial Viper 4.1.2

        All in record profit, thank you very much.

        • srylands

          Seriously you say that like it is a bad thing. You would like us to have unprofitable banks?

          • Colonial Viper

            When you mean “us” you’re referring to the Australian shareholding owners of those banks, right? The ones who are extracting billions in profits from NZ households and SMEs and then shipping it back home to support their own lifestyles?

          • Draco T Bastard

            Yes. Well, one bank run at cost by the government for the good of the country anyway. These private banks are too damaging to our economy.

      • Tracey 4.1.3

        snap boys and i stand very corrected

      • Rosie 4.1.4

        “banks are all in profit, things are ok.”

        Yep, I reminded them of their record profits when I refixed my mortgage rate last week and said as well as not being able to afford an interest rate increase I was not prepared to line their pockets any more than I had to (all said in the most tasteful and polite possible way of course)

        Got the rate reduced down from their original offer.

        • Colonial Viper

          Hey good work, I remember you saying that you were going to push hard 🙂

          • Rosie

            Cheers CV, I reckon everyone needs to go hard out with negotiations when the time comes to refix your rate. It doesn’t hurt to remind them they have profited at a time when so many are downwardly mobile and livelihoods are more insecure than previously.

            The folks you’re dealing with at the call centre aren’t on great wages themselves. The person I spoke with was empathetic with our situation and didn’t deny the record profits I mentioned. Good to remember that the call centre person isn’t the director making massive bonuses and that they need to be spoken to respectfully if you want a smooth ride for your negotiation.

    • greywarbler 4.2

      Good analogy amirite very apt. +1

  5. veutoviper 5

    Talking about Banks, the decision on his electoral donations case is due out today – No7 Court, Auckland High Court at 2.15pm.


    • Tracey 5.1

      thanks veuto.

      My concern remains around the legal issue of what banks “knew” when he signed the forms without reading them.

      I find it staggering that friends testified about how honest banks is, yet he signed somthing without reading it.. Signed it as true and correct without reading it.

      • veutoviper 5.1.1

        The legal issues covered by the decision whichever way it goes are going to be very interesting.

        Don’t have time to find the relevant legislative provisions, but my understanding is that the case will probably succeed or fail on the word “knowingly” signed in the relevant legislative provision.
        In other words, the relevant provision includes the word “knowingly” – and thus differs from the normal situation where ignorance is no excuse – eg in respect of contracts, general law etc.

        Whichever way it goes, that word needs to be removed.

        • Tracey

          pretty sure by signing he was stating it was true and correct, but it seems in banks world that is irrelevant, doesnt mak him dishonest tho

  6. fambo 6

    I’m wondering if a former New Zealand cricket player has made an offer David Cunliffe can’t refuse, to throw the election, after seeing him approach National about working together to get rid of coat-tailing before the election.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 6.1

      Or perhaps seventy-one percent in favour of scrapping it was the trigger. It’s easy to stick to a popular principle.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 6.2

      I disagree that it would “throw the election”. Implementing the RC’s recommendations would drop the threshold to 4% and give the IMP a pretty good underdog status to go with all that money.

      • Colonial Viper 6.2.1

        4% is far far too high a threshold and is designed as a barrier to waste minor party votes. Why should a minor party not get into Parliament when it has enough votes from the electorate for an effective 3 or 4 MP size caucus.

        • Kiwiri

          Yeah. Halve the current threshold. From 5% to 2.5%.
          Also ensure there will be a review after 10 years.

        • The Lone Haranguer

          You do realise that had this happened from the start, that you would have had the likes of Christian Heritage Party in parliament along with its leader Graham Capill. From memory, the Christian Coalition got over 4% in one of the early MMP elections

          Be careful what you wish for…..

          • Draco T Bastard

            I see no reason why peoples choice of representative should be excluded from parliament just because you don’t like them.

          • Colonial Viper

            If they received 100,000 votes then they probably deserve to be represented in Parliament speaking on behalf of the people who voted for them.

          • Tracey

            Act gave us garrett… Criminal stealer of dead baby name, so dont assume we havent already seen what xan happen

  7. this one is fun..( dare you not ‘to groove’..!..)

    “..The Chic Organization – 10 of the best..” (music/videos..)

    .From their own early disco anthems –

    through to their masterly productions for others –
    Nile Rodgers and Bernard Edwards scaled pop’s heights..”



  8. Chooky 8

    ….crimes against children…crimes against women…crimes against humanity….as Christopher Hitchens said: “Where ever you find Catholicism you find fascism ”

    …what does this Irish Catholic Church history of child abuse , murder and abuse of women say for the mental health of this society and religion…time to do some serious self examination!

    796 Irish orphans buried in mass grave near Catholic orphanage: historian
    Orphanage’s septic tank was converted to serve as body disposal site


    …..and the Catholic Church has the gall to oppose women the right to contraception and abortion!

    …..and it has protected their male Priest perpetrators of sex crimes against children and women!

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      ….crimes against children…crimes against women…crimes against humanity….as Christopher Hitchens said: “Where ever you find Catholicism you find fascism ”

      Just remember that Hitchens was a big supporter of the war against Saddam Hussein which eventuated in hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians dead and ongoing weekly sectarian violence.

      • phillip ure 8.1.1

        very few people are wrong about everything..

        ..and while individual catholics may be fine/sincere in their beliefs people..

        ..the arguments can be made the organisation is fascist in nature..

        ..in many different ways..from the small to the large..

        ..and it has a long history of being ‘relaxed’ about cozying up to/with fascist-regimes..

        ..ones torturing/killing their own citizens..

        ..and ‘torturings/killings’ those cozying up church-leaders/rome could not have not known about..

        ..(and as an aside..you do have this pattern in this forum of not debating ideas..but attacking messengers..eh..?..)

        ..and yes..in many ways/ideas hitchens was a rightwing-jerk..

        ..but not in/with this one..

        ..all he is doing is pulling together the strings of historical-record..after all..

      • Chooky 8.1.2

        yes I never agreed with Hitchens on that one….i was absolutely appalled by the war declared on Iraq!( scapegoating for 9/11 and false accusations of weapons of mass destruction)…i think Hitchens was sidelined in his thinking or blinded by his dislike of fundamentalist Islam and its intolerance of Gays

        nevertheless Hitchens was a brilliant man and I do agree with him on that quote about Catholicism….after all there is evidence that Hitler was a Catholic to the end (check wiki)…many of his views on women, minorities , gays, the ‘immoral’ , Communists, Gypsies and the Jews were Catholic Institution views, as the feminist Gloria Steinem and numerous biographers and historians have pointed out (not his final solutions I hasten to add)…and his adviser to the end was a Catholic Priest ( incidentally there is also the suggestion that Hitler had at least one Jewish ancestor…a grandparent?)

  9. Mr Interest 9

    Asbestos and supply chain

    Interesting listening to RNZ how only just now they are talking of properly recording in the LIM report if houses contain asbestos.

    Gee, thank god we have ‘balanced professionals’ that come in years after the fact.

    I feel so safe. Funny we are seeing the ‘lets let legislation catch up’ in the fracking industry as well.

    Certain big companie,s in theory, should have some form of relationships with key supply chain companies. Now what if, in this ‘balanced & professional’ environment no one was actually recording what products came into the country containing asbestos that are used in building (there may or may not be building products). Also, is there any data that accompanies the products that details the proper handling processes?

    Now consider this (I cannot comment on the accuracy of this infromation). The problem appears to me, is that we just don’t know what possible building materials etc are being imported into NZ.

    How hard can it be to track stock, or for that matter compile a photographic library of past and new asbestos containing building materials…….. seriously…. I am waiting for you ” Professional & Balanced” experts to tell me this.

    Tick Tock Tick Tock

    The following exterts are taken from:


    Deadly building materials still coming into NZ
    report NZPA | Tuesday July 1 2008:
    Building products with asbestos in them
    are putting builders at deadly risk,
    a new report commissioned by the
    Department of Labour says.
    The report, obtained by NZPA under the
    Official Information Act,
    says many builders
    would not know asbestos if they saw it.
    And while local manufacturing of those products
    ceased in the late 1980s,
    builders might also be at risk of
    imported goods from countries
    where there is no such ban.
    New Zealand has a ban on importing
    raw asbestos but no ban
    on importing asbestos in goods
    as long as they are labelled,
    and no testing for them at ports.

    Products containing asbestos
    are still allowed to come into New Zealand
    with absolutely no HSNO approval
    from ERMA being required.
    There is no comprehensive list of
    the products that contain asbestos
    that may currently be imported into
    New Zealand
    I believe most New Zealanders
    who know how dangerous
    asbestos is,
    also believe that when the
    import of raw asbestos was banned in NZ
    it really meant any asbestos coming into NZ.
    and did not realise that raw products meant just that.
    (Who was to know that
    somewhere down the line
    some one with no brain whatsoever
    was going to come along and say
    “No problem.
    It’s quite safe,
    No need to worry
    I’ll be long dead
    before they find
    out I was wrong”


    Since the text for this article was finalized, an earthquake measuring 6.3 on the Richter Scale struck the New Zealand town of Christchurch. 14 Speaking within hours of the disaster, the country’s Prime Minister John Key said that “We may be witnessing New Zealand’s darkest day…” In the midst of strong aftershocks, emergency rescue efforts are being made to locate survivors.
    Unfortunately, the ubiquity of asbestos in the country’s infrastructure adds another layer of danger to the already perilous conditions. As has been seen in the aftermath of Cyclone Yasi, the presence of asbestos-contaminated rubble in Queensland necessitated the use of specialist personnel and equipment to minimize the hazards to clean-up crews. Recalling the infamous cyclone which wiped out the Northern Territory town of Darwin in 1974, Dr. Gregory Deleuil, medical advisor to the Asbestos Diseases Society of Australia, said that, as a resident of Darwin, he had first-hand experience of the destruction. Tracy reduced his home town to “a city-sized asbestos-contaminated demolition site.” As a medical practitioner, with a specialism in asbestos-related diseases, Dr. Deleuil has diagnosed two of the emergency responders involved in the Tracy clean-up with asbestosis.15
    Perhaps, the tragedy which has now occurred in New Zealand will be the incentive needed for the government to take effective action on asbestos; the first step would be a comprehensive ban on the import of all asbestos-containing products. Once this has been done, a national asbestos strategy could be implemented.
    February 22, 2011

    • bad12 9.1

      Lolz, in a comment, months ago now i commented on how ‘we’ had forced a landlord to take a rental property off the market,

      Asbestos was the tool, plenty of it in old Wellington homes and the real estate company got the message that it would have to, now that Asbestos was confirmed in the building, advertise this to prospective buyers, worked a treat as well…

  10. Draco T Bastard 10

    The Impossibility of Growth

    To succeed is to destroy ourselves. To fail is to destroy ourselves. That is the bind we have created. Ignore if you must climate change, biodiversity collapse, the depletion of water, soil, minerals, oil; even if all these issues were miraculously to vanish, the mathematics of compound growth make continuity impossible.

    And that is what makes politicians and most economists delusional. They keep telling us that we need more growth despite the fact that more will destroy us.

    • Colonial Viper 10.1

      And the sociopathic amongst them know what is coming, but think that if they can corner all the world’s resources for themselves, they will somehow get through OK. The gated community mindset writ large.

  11. Draco T Bastard 11


    A short video about the ESA. The interesting bit is that for every Euro invested in the space program it returns 20.

    Now say that NZ doesn’t need a space program.

    • Colonial Viper 11.1

      We don’t need a space programme.

      • Draco T Bastard 11.1.1


        But we actually do – for all the reasons stated in the video about how good the ESA was for Europe.

        • Colonial Viper

          Bloody hell Draco, that’s like saying look how good building cars was for Japan and South Korea in the 60’s – 90’s, lets go building cars in Kiwiland!

          I know you love the high-tech promise of the future but in an energy depleting and economically declining world – cars and spacecraft are the last things we need to double down on.

          • Draco T Bastard

            The only real problems we’re going to have in the future about energy will be cars, planes and fast ships and the reason for that will be lack of liquid fuels. Everything else? Not a problem as we don’t need to burn anything to provide them with the energy needed.

            • Colonial Viper

              Oh god mate seriously?

              Look up the Shell refinery fire in the Netherlands which was just in the news. Look up what that refinery made for Europe and the world out of petroleum products, and with what kind of manufacturing capacity.

              And then tell me that cars, planes and ships without fuel is the one and only main problem here.

              Our entire global and industrial infrastructure is predicated on fossil fuels, full stop.

              • Draco T Bastard

                But that’s not a question of energy but a question of resources and, sure, hydrocarbons and their refined products are going to be in short supply but there will be substitutes for them. Can’t get the plastic for your cellphone? Not a problem, we’ll just use ceramics instead. Can’t get the synthetic fibres for that nice cloak? Just use wool (which I believe is actually better anyway).

                Then there’s the concept of recycling. This also needs to be a major policy and it needs to be that everything gets recycled. We have no choice on that.

                Our entire global and industrial infrastructure is predicated on fossil fuels, full stop.

                You’re actually wrong there. It’s transport that predicated on fossil fuels and without that transport there’s no global economy – just local ones.

                And we don’t need fossil fuels to get into space.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Can’t get the plastic for your cellphone? Not a problem, we’ll just use ceramics instead. Can’t get the synthetic fibres for that nice cloak? Just use wool

                  Some materials are somewhat fungible, in theory. But you make it sound far too easy. It comes back to the manufacturing triad of cost, quality and time. There will be major compromises in product performance and availability.

                  And how are you going to feed all the sheep and grow all the cotton needed to replace the millions of tonnes of polyesters used in clothing today?

                  Simply put – people are just going to have to make do, and most of the time, to make do without.

                  And we don’t need fossil fuels to get into space.

                  I’m happy to drill down into that if you are. As IMO you can’t build and operate a 10 person aeroplane across the Atlantic without fossil fuels, let alone get something into space.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    I’m happy to drill down into that if you are. As IMO you can’t build and operate a 10 person aeroplane across the Atlantic without fossil fuels, let alone get something into space.

                    Hydrogen/Oxygen extracted from water using electricity produced using renewable generation.
                    Aluminium extracted from the Earth using electrical tools and then smelted using electricity produced using renewable generation.
                    Computers made the same way.
                    Seals and other plastics to be produced from biological sources such as hemp.
                    Heat shields are ceramic anyway.

                    Think that pretty much covers everything.

                    Have a cool bike

                    • Colonial Viper

                      You’re an optimist, I’ll give you that.

                      No one is going to spend the money to rework any of the above to what you say. Bauxite quarries don’t run on electricity. Most modern space launch vehicles don’t run on hydrogen. The performance, reliability and knowledge of mechanical parts made of organic materials is mediocre.

                      Computers made the same way.

                      No one will be able to afford said computers. From refining silicon to obtaining rare earth metals to packaging ICs…it could theoretically all be done using renewable electricity but it won’t be.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Bauxite quarries don’t run on electricity.

                      Continuous Miners “Innovations such as…AC traction motors…”

                      Yeah, mines already run on electricity.

                      We’ve had this debate before although it was about trains then and it comes down to one little fact – electric motors are far more powerful and reliable than diesel engines. And have the advantage of requiring less ventilation as they don’t pump the mine full of exhaust gases.

                      Most modern space launch vehicles don’t run on hydrogen.

                      That fails to prove that they can’t – especially considering that they have done before.

                      The performance, reliability and knowledge of mechanical parts made of organic materials is mediocre.

                      Then we’d better get onto the R&D.

                      No one will be able to afford said computers.

                      Renewable electricity is, as a matter of fact, cheaper than the fossil fueled stuff due to the fact that it’s not using up a finite resource for which we have more important things to do. Hell, that’s why Tiwai Point smelter was built where it is – the massive availability of cheap hydro power.

                      My optimism is based upon what we can do whereas you’re pessimism is based upon the delusion that it all must fall down because JMG said so.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      My optimism is based upon what we can do whereas you’re pessimism is based upon the delusion that it all must fall down because JMG said so.

                      But JMG is right, and you’re wrong. The trajectory of the last decade (and of the end of every empire in history) clearly demonstrates that.

                      You keep pointing out the things which could be done hypothetically, but of course they won’t be.

                      For some reason you think that a modern economy will exist into the non-fossil fuel future, one which can provide us with a comparable or higher standard of living than today.

                      Even though you know for a fact that for most people in most nations life has been getting worse not better, for a very long time now.

                      Get over the bargaining stage mate you still have some way to go.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      BTW thanks for the link to the cool bike

                      They have a nice innovative business model too

                      Ahem…I’m betting their tyres are made from crude oil with steel reinforcing though…but not a bad effort.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      The trajectory of the last decade (and of the end of every empire in history) clearly demonstrates that.

                      There’s one major difference between now and every other major civilisation collapse – most people are well educated rather being ignorant. I’m quite aware that we can’t go on the way we are.

                      We have to get rid of the rich (and I don’t mean just getting them out of power) so that we can actually change society. If we don’t then society will collapse as it always has.

                      But if we get rid of the rich then that education that everyone has can be used to change our society so that it’s sustainable while maintaining a similar living standard to what we have now but with a lot less than 40 hours per week of work.

                      Ahem…I’m betting their tyres are made from crude oil with steel reinforcing though…but not a bad effort.

                      Probably but they don’t have to be. We can make plastics out of organic compounds or a combination organic and inorganic compounds. Original tyres used canvas for strengthening but the one thing we won’t be running out of is steel anyway.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      There’s one major difference between now and every other major civilisation collapse – most people are well educated rather being ignorant. I’m quite aware that we can’t go on the way we are.

                      Yeah but education has never been a quality in the way you posit it in your statement. In fact some of the worst fuckassery of the last 20-30 years has been caused by the most qualified, best educated out of the most prestigious schools while the rest of the “educated” population sat back and believed the rational sounding intellectual nonsense and let it all happen – so were complicit with it to some degree or other.

                      I presume you are younger than me Draco – I am a child of the 70’s to mid 80’s – but with any luck we will both get to see how this ride turns out.

  12. (the person who i wd like to be the next president of america..and piketty..

    ..discuss how to take care of ‘inequality’..)

    “..Thomas Piketty and Elizabeth Warren Discuss Why the Rich Get Richer – and the Rest Get Shafted..” (video..)

    “..Piketty and Warren agree:

    we have the tools to stop rising inequality..”



  13. RTM 13

    Yesterday David Cunliffe said that if elected he will take urgent action to end the danger that ‘coat tailing’ poses to NZ’s democratic process; on the same day, though, his foreign affairs spokesperson was talking blithely about Tonga’s ‘transition to democracy’, and ignoring the enormous distortion in that country’s electoral system that in 2010 allowed a handful of nobles to ignore the will of 70% of the people and form a government. With elections approaching in Tonga as well as NZ, Labour needs to add its voice to those of Tongan democrats, and help prevent a new violent crisis in the Friendly Islands: http://readingthemaps.blogspot.co.nz/2014/06/labour-and-democracy-tale-of-two.html

  14. ianmac 14

    Mr Mallard’s asked what looked like a random question to Ms Parata about whether or not she struck a staffer. This was at a Select Committee which is in the House. Her denial is in the “House” and qualifies for the “Misleading the House” if the answer was found to be wrong. So perhaps not so random at all.
    There is a personal grievance being considered.
    Watch this space.

    • Puckish Rogue 14.1

      T. Mallard is a sleazy little man

      • Colonial Viper 14.1.1

        No one forced Hekia to mislead the House, Puckish.

        • Crashcart

          But I would hope Ducky would have a bit more than a “Romour from a reliable source” before starting down the track he has. If he can’t come up with anything concrete it just plays into the “Left use nasty politics” MeMe that is bandied around.

          • ianmac

            Dunno. All Mr Mallard did was ask a question though heavily loaded. If nothing comes of it the issue is gone by lunchtime. If National makes a fuss it will keep the possibility alive. If there is substance then look out.
            (Actually weren’t there rumours about a very high turnover of staff in the Parata office a few years back? Wonder why?)

            • Crashcart

              Yet the MSM already has Parata saying how offended she is. This puts the onus on Mallard to prove what he has said. This close to the election it just becomes another thing you will hear “The left are nasty and make up stuff”.

              • Tracey

                agree. Mallard seems to have stepped tnis shit up cos its election year. He tried this in 2011

        • Puckish Rogue

          Do you have any sort of proof that she has mislead the house?

          • framu

            which is exactly trevs problem here – if you dont have some back up, keep your trap shut to the media untill you do. The election isnt tomorrow

            If he does have evidence and hes playing a game longer than one news story he better put up fast otherwise the predictable will happen

            • McFlock

              yeah – didn’t shearer do something similar with the GCSB presentation? Going off half-cocked before the ducks are in a row…


          • Pasupial

            Mallard is the one with the proof, if he can get the person to come forward. But the history is certainly suggestive:

            Ms Longstone quit in December [2012] over a relationship breakdown with Ms Parata. Under an exit package thrashed out with the State Services Commission, revealed this month, she received a before-tax payout of more than $425,000: $267,952 severance pay and $157,523 in outstanding holiday pay and a payment in lieu of notice.
            It worked out at almost $1000 for every day she was in the job.
            But Ms Parata’s relationship with Ms Longstone is not the only one under scrutiny.
            Ms Parata has lost several private secretaries and a senior adviser just two months into a two-year secondment.
            She also let go her senior private secretary just before Christmas.

            Lots of room in there for physical bullying to have occurred. Maybe someone else wants a $1000/ day payout?

      • Pasupial 14.1.2

        P. Rogue is a sleazy little man.

        The Honourable Trevor Mallard, MP for Hutt South; for all his sleaziness, is a much bigger fish than you are.

        • Puckish Rogue

          Maybe I am but whether or not I am doesn’t change that T. Mallard is a sleazy, little man

    • Naturesong 14.2

      I really, really hope he’s got his ducks in a row for this one.

  15. fisiani 16

    Labour’s imagined Auckland housing crisis vote winner has hit a major snag.

    A 14% drop in house sales and no rise in rents means that there is no crisis.
    Oh Dear. immigration crisis FAIL
    Housing Crisis FAIL
    Manufacturing crisis FAIL
    Christchurch crisis FAIL
    The Cunliffe FAIL

    • Crashcart 16.1

      Immigration Crisis Fail = Concocted media beat up. No new policy was ever proposed just a statement that Labour would use existing tools to try and achieve a more stable net migration rate.
      Housing Crises Fail = I’m not sure how a drop in house sales = no housing crisis. Perhaps that is reflective of the fact that interest rates have started to go up and the high deposits required. I know this would make you happy because it means that really only rich landlords can now afford to buy hoses in Auckland and anyone who would want to get into the market is stuffed unless they are on a very high income.
      Manufacturing CRISIS Fail = I am pretty sure or economy is still largely reliant on Primary Exports and not value added products. After all it was only Manufacturers who were claiming that the sector was in Crisis and what the hell would they know that you don’t?
      Christchurch Crisis Fail = Bit early to be claiming victory on this one mate. Still a lot of red zone land owners, Flooded residents and others who would argue that Vodafone moving in isn’t the end of their problems.
      The Cunliff fail = Your opinion and your welcome to it.

    • Draco T Bastard 16.2

      Fisiani yet again proves his inability to apply logic to anything due to his ideology.

      BTW, what you’re actually describing there is the possible bursting of the housing bubble in Auckland that’s been going on for close to a decade.

  16. Marius 17

    Crammed into bad tuxedo’s and shoddy evening dresses while struggling to dine gracefully for the panning cameras – the overweight NZ glitterati and their hangers on sit ringside as the snot and gore fly from the orifices’ of the third rate palooka’s plodding lazily away from their huffing quarry. That’s all before the actually boxing begins. Spare a thought for the underpaid cleaners that have to deal to the ablusions block and car parks after that lot drain the bar. New Zealand doesn’t have it when it comes to our version of the Oscar’s or anything, really.

  17. Puckish Rogue 18

    I don’t know if this will get its own thread but:


    “National (52.5%) surges to election winning lead while Labour/ Greens (38%) slump to lowest since last New Zealand Election as Greens propose a Carbon Tax to replace the Emissions Trading Scheme”

    Thats Labour on 29% and the Greens on 9% in case anyones interested

    • McFlock 18.1


      Compare the latest nat result in the “long term NZ party voting intention” chart in that poll.
      Somewhere around the rough median the nats had throughout 2011.

      And they could only sell assets with the assistance of an officially corrupt mp to whom they gifted an electorate.

      I won’t be slitting my wrists just yet.

    • Tracey 18.2

      Field defiant, Clark exposed as weakTuesday, 13 February 2007, 7:59 pm
      Press Release: New Zealand National Party

      Field defiant, Clark exposed as weak

      Helen Clark’s leadership has been exposed as weak over Taito Phillip Field, says National Party Leader John Key.

      “Helen Clark’s move tonight to start the process to expel him from the Labour Party only happened after Mr Field told the media today he was jumping ship.

      “This is a Prime Minister who was prepared to cynically cling to power by continuing to exercise Mr Field’s vote, no matter what. She would have used any excuse to not act against him to maintain her slim one-vote majority.

      “Mr Field, by talking to the media on Helen Clark’s big day, forced her hand.

      “This is not a Prime Minister in control, but a Prime Minister in damage control.

      “Helen Clark has shown no leadership. She concocted an expensive, toothless inquiry that she knew would never get to the bottom of the allegations against Mr Field.

      “Then she sat on her hands when Mr Field said he would decline to co-operate with the police inquiry.

      “Today, Mr Field has forced her hand by open defiance in the media.

      “With a motion of no confidence in the Labour Government being voted on this Thursday, Helen Clark should immediately say whether Labour will continue to exercise Mr Field’s vote.”

  18. Colonial Viper 19

    GCHQ spying base in Oman

    Part of the Echelon system which NZ is part of and much much more, directly tapping into 9 major fibre optic cables which carry data throughout the middle east.

    Note how the west is prepared to support and work with undemocratic dictators, as long as they are “our” undemocratic dictators.

    Of course, this colonial behaviour while obscured by mainstream news sources in the west has been directly known and witnessed by the Middle East street for many decades.


  19. Ad 21

    Lots to chew over in this new breakdown of New Zealand’s economic performance since 2007 both by sector and by region:


  20. Rosie 22

    Just a random aside about people I usually ignore for the reason that they are unpleasant and tell lies.

    SSLands. Just going by the types of comments he makes, do you think he’s the kind of anti social person that believes that people in positions of service are beneath him on the social strata?

    Would he talk on his phone while ordering a coffee? Would he not acknowledge the staff who brings him his coffee, not even look at them and not say thank you?

    I observe this kind of behaviour on my rare outings for a coffee and wonder why these people behave the way they do. Were they not taught basic manners as a child? Are they self absorbed? Are they selfish? Or do they think that those that serve them don’t deserve their acknowledgement? Then I wonder if those people are the same RWNJ bastards that you come across on line.

    RWNJ’s can still have good manners, I know some that do, but you get those that just appear to have traces of sociopathic tendencies, such as the aforementioned.

  21. Kenny Smith 23

    Latest rory morgan poll

    National 52.5% (+7),

    Labour 29.5 (-1.5)

    Greens 9% (-4.5)

    NZF 4.5 (-1.5)

    Maori 1.5

    Conservative 1

    Act 1%

    United 0%

    Other .5%

    Mana/Int 1%

    Personally I think they have the greens too low, and NZ first far too high.

    I hope dotcom is happy that 4 million dollars buys him 1% and only one MP.

    Act is of course gone, along with the conservative, where are the Maori party in this poll

    • Pasupial 23.1


      Thanks for the shift of venue.

      Yes that is a colossal swing towards National, but I believe it to be a rogue poll: At no point on the listed Roy Mogan results (fortnightly from Jan 2012 to present), have National polled that high nor the Greens that low. Also it doesn’t match other data I’ve seen – one of the perils of using a (nominal) 1000 person sample to extrapolate election day results from.


      The next one will be out around the 22nd. This is an emphatic; “must try harder” for the left bloc though!

      • Kenny Smith 23.1.1

        Agree this poll does seem out of sync, with the Greens being a tad low, nzfirst far too high, labour too low, National a tad too high.

        • Lanthanide

          As this is the lowest polling NZFirst have had in 5 consecutive polls, I don’t think it can be called “too high”.

    • blue leopard 23.2


      Interesting, though, it leads to the TV3 poll looking pretty accurate – very similar to that one.

      This poll doesn’t really include the whole Internet Leadership announcement. Roy Morgan says they collected the data between 19 May -June 1st. The leadership announcement occurred on the 29th.

      This poll is still reflecting the response to National’s rather left-wing flavored budget.

      Labour’s policy creators should pat themselves on the back and take some of the credit for National’s bump in support – considering the inspiration for National’s budget appeared to come directly from Labour policies – Labour should be pleased that NZers respond so well to their policies; albeit watered down versions. Just next time I hope NZers give credit to whom it is due – not copycats with no ideas of their own.

      I also agree that Greens are likely recorded too low, however also believe they consistently tend to get NZ First too low too and believe the same is the case here. (Greens and NZ First likely to have higher supported than indicated here).

      • Kiwiri 23.2.1

        Labour should go really very hard on driving the retirement age up. That should do more wonders. In addition, National should drop a few bombs on that proposal sometime, erm let’s say, 20 days before polling date. That should keep Labour respectably low and out of government.


        • Colonial Viper

          Surely the answer to this low polling and National’s high polling is to try and imitate National more closely? I mean, it’s working so far, right?

          • blue leopard

            Whilst you are having a bit of a laugh, please do remember that it was National imitating Labour that got National such stunning results – not the other way around.

            (Just thought I had better make that clear, in case any of those Labour MPs who have currently gotten into cammo gear, so to speak, and gone AWOL shooting friendly fire might be reading and missing the sarcasm contained in your comments, get even more fueled on the righteousness of their ’cause’….whatever it might be…your guess is as good as mine….I mean…I daresay it makes sense to them in their little minds anyway….)

            • Colonial Viper

              Thanks BL.

              Remember the recent days of Labour polling in the mid to late 30% range when Cunliffe was passionately talking about a true Red Labour and how Labour wasn’t just going to be a National taking a limb off but with better anaesthetic?

              Seems so long ago now.

              • Draco T Bastard

                These days, it seems that Labour is more about helping National take the leg off without anesthetic:

                “The Prime Minister must now act to restore confidence in our political system. Labour reiterates its challenge to the National government to remove the coat-tailing provisions from the Electoral Act. Our Members’ Bill is ready to go and we would support its passage prior to the election.

                They just don’t seem to get that trying this this close to the election is just coming across as pure politicking, poor sportsmanship, and that they’re doing it solely to keep IMP out. Which raises the question in voters minds: Why are Labour so afraid of a left wing party?

                • Disraeli Gladstone

                  Because it’s intimately connected with a man who’s personal background is so volatile it might explode and tarnish an entire government?

                  It’s not a case of being afraid of a left-wing party (though Labour’s attitude to the Greens leave much to be desire), it’s more a case of being afraid of a convicted criminal, John Banks donating, rape joke making billionaire.

                  I don’t blame them for being scared.

                • Colonial Viper

                  They just don’t seem to get that trying this this close to the election is just coming across as pure politicking, poor sportsmanship, and that they’re doing it solely to keep IMP out.


                  How many non-voters is Labour going to turn out with raising the retirement age? NONE.

                  How many non-voters is Labour going to turn out by cutting out coat tailing? NONE.

                  How many non-voters is Labour going to turn out by bashing IMP? Probably quite a few…NONE for Labour though.

                  It’s classic world view from the middle of the Thorndon Bubble stuff.

                  This is why Labour rarely sounds like it is talking to NZers out here, in the rest of the country. They’re too busy talking about inane stuff that only Thorndon bubble head types care about.

                  Meanwhile, the rest of the country is like, wtf is up with the Labour Party.

            • infused

              Labour were in such a cluster fuck though, it was pretty easy.

    • Colonial Viper 23.3

      Latest rory morgan poll [current / Sept 2011]

      National 52.5% (+7), 57.0% (+4.5)

      Labour 29.5 (-1.5), 26.0% (-3.5)

      Greens 9% (-4.5), 7.5% (-1.5)

      NZF 4.5 (-1.5), 3.5% (-1)

      The numbers in bold are the Roy Morgan numbers from the second half of Sept 2011, with the differential in brackets the difference between the 2011 result and the latest Roy Morgan.

      Bottom line, National are still royally fucked. In Sept 2011 the differential between Labour and National was a full eight points bigger and National still only scraped in. Plus the Greens and NZF are polling higher now than then.

      Basically Labour can still win this and win it strongly, if it gets its shit sorted ASAP and presents voters with initiatives which unashamedly addresses the median New Zealanders’ concerns, not BS Thorndon bubble crap.

  22. Puckish Rogue 24

    I also think they have the Greens too low but Labour seems to high but Winstonfirst seems about right

    But not to worry as soon as people discover the real Cunliffe the polls will change 🙂

    • jono 24.1

      A sad but predictable poll. We have a mainstream media that continues to be mesmerised by JK and is rabidly anti-left. At the same time we have an ill-disciplined Labour Party focused on winning the centre by offering up a kinder-gentler moneterism (see Parker’s May announcement) while extemporising on immigration policy. None of this gives Labour a distinctive ‘brand’ with working people thereby reinforcing the widespread belief that voting is a waste of time. Meanwhile, Labour is not going to achieve any traction in the centre while National can steal their policies and scare middle class voters by painting the greens as dangerous, especially when Labour helps in the process by holding their only ally at arms length.
      Some months ago Labour soared to 37% in the polls. That was when they presented themselves as a genuine left alternative. Sadly it now seems all that is forgotten as the careerists in caucus look to win in 2017. Those of us who can’t afford to wait until then have to tell them to join us or move on.

  23. Volnay 25

    A little short documentary I just finished watching on youtube, it’s a good exploration of the consequences bad credit, pay cheque loans from an American perspective. Its mind bogglingly funded by American Express..

  24. Bob 26

    I think this poll shows that colmar brunton and Reid research polls, and the ipsos poll (Fairfax media) were all showing a similar result and trend, Nats up, Labs down.

    We can’t keep saying that polls are rogue when they don’t suit us.

    We can’t praise up roy morgan when it shows a shift the way we want and that it’s a “rogue” when it goes against what we want.

    Trends are important, and currently the trend in all polls is showing Nats gaining (not that they will actually get 50%) and Labs dropping to, or below 30%.

    • bad12 26.1

      i think the latest from Roy likes to show that ”taking the piss” is something that the Morgan organization quietly prides itself in,

      If what is supposedly such a robust polling organization cannot even keep up with a small thing like the alliance between Internet and Mana Parties treating them both as separate entities in this poll then like the New Zealand based polls any belief put in such results need be accompanied with a liberal sprinkling of salt…

      • Disraeli Gladstone 26.1.1

        Polling was conducted largely, but not solely, before the merger. They couldn’t have Internet MANA because some people would have said MANA and others the Internet Party.

        Simple as that.

  25. logie97 27

    Anyone hear Key on National Radio news at midday – interview re the consequences if Banks decision was unfavourable.

    He was saying basically that it will not affect confidence and supply. He then used an interesting term “…Parliament lifts in a few weeks anyway.” I can see the cranes being moved in already.

    When his Mrs is baking and he passes through the kitchen he probably advises her not to remove the cake until it has lifted.

  26. Draco T Bastard 28

    How immigration affects the UK economy

    And that is the standard pitch – let the multiplier take effect and prosperity will ensue.

    But of course from the graph we can see that isn’t really happening. And the reason is straightforward. For immigration to have a positive effect it needs to be of high value. That helps to ensure that the multiplier is large, and that the new jobs created by the cascade have a chance of being of a low enough level to soak up the remaining people on the unemployment queue.

    However if you allow an unskilled migrant to come in, then the chances of creating a job that will match somebody else decrease significantly. The multiplier doesn’t have as strong an effect. More likely you will just recreate nearly the same job you just filled.

    And that is what we see. Over time the number of people goes up, the number of hours demanded goes up, but the rate of under engagement stays about the same. If the total goes up and the rate stays roughly the same then the number of people unemployed, underemployed and inactive continues to go up – each one of those cases being a personal disaster for the individual involved.

    And that, of course, is the effect we see when unskilled labour is brought in to NZ and we, just the same as the UK, become worse off because of it.

    • srylands 28.1

      Unskilled labour is brought in because there is a shortage of unskilled labour, in the places they are needed.

      If you are running an orchard who would you rather employ? A keen as gang from Samoa and some keen as Swedish backpackers, or some surly unskilled dope heads sent along by WINZ? It is as simple as that. These people have businesses to run.

      Travel all through the South Island and you will see thousands of overseas travellers employed in cafes, marinas, and spas. Are the unemployed in South Auckland going to travel to Franz Josef to work in the tourism industry? No. Fucking. Chance.

      So unless you want to see the country stop, either we will need to keep up immigration or you son will need to get your mates to start advocating policies to change society and put a rocket under the feckless and breeders. Until that happens get used to saying hi to the cute German girl when you check in for your spa session.

      • Draco T Bastard 28.1.1

        If you are running an orchard who would you rather employ?

        Don’t really care who you’d rather employ because it’s not about what’s good for you but about what’s good for society.

        Are the unemployed in South Auckland going to travel to Franz Josef to work in the tourism industry?

        Wrong question. The question is actually Can they afford to travel to Franz Joseph Glacier for a minimum wage job? No. Fucking. Chance.

        So unless you want to see the country stop, either we will need to keep up immigration or you son will need to get your mates to start advocating policies to change society and put a rocket under the feckless and breeders.

        And the ignorance and bigotry comes out.

        • Tracey

          hes just copying and pasting from last month… in between the coalition for poverty has issued a report about the impact on kids of their parents constantly moving to follow seasonal work.

        • infused

          “Don’t really care who you’d rather employ because it’s not about what’s good for you but about what’s good for society.”

          Let me know when you enter the real world

          “Wrong question. The question is actually Can they afford to travel to Franz Joseph Glacier for a minimum wage job? No. Fucking. Chance.”

          It’s a seasonal job. So it makes no sense for them to move. There isn’t even an argument here.

          • Colonial Viper

            Let me know when you enter the real world

            Nah mate

            We choose the kind of society we wish to create

            Time to take that power of creativity back from the 1%

          • srylands

            OK so the unemployed people in Christchurch can’t travel to Blenheim either?

            Fuck I went to Ahipara – drowning in unemployed Maori. Stayed at the local campground where you could SEE the unemployed across the road. Who staffs the front office of the Campground, in the heart of darkest Northland? Yep, Germans.

            • McFlock

              are you sure you didn’t just see Maori across the road?

            • bad12

              Darkest Northland SSLands,???, the real question SSLands is not one of who you seen across the road as you communed with the Germans in the campgrounds,

              You as a raving capitalist wing-nut know that the employment equation is governed by ”willing buyer, willing seller”,

              Instead of pointing your scum encrusted finger at the locals for being unemployed you should have berated the owners of the camp-ground for not having hired any of the locals…

          • srylands

            and BTW I am not talking about seasonal jobs in Westland – these are year round jobs. You are suggesting that no unemployed in the South Island can afford a bus ticket to Westland to take up jobs currently filled by thousands of temporary immigrants? Seriously, it is a fucking eye opener seeing the scale of unskilled foreigners working in these areas. Something has gone seriously wrong. But you can’t blame the employers. They are happy as can be.

            • Draco T Bastard

              But you can’t blame the employers. They are happy as can be.

              Yes, we actually can and should be. We should also blame the government that allowed tourists to work.

              • Colonial Viper

                Shitlands isn’t a NZer and he’s not even in NZ. It’s like he does restaurant reviews for places he’s never eaten at, while sitting in a KFC somewhere far away.

          • Draco T Bastard

            Let me know when you enter the real world

            I’m in the real world. Greed and selfishness cause the decline of civilisation while cooperation builds it’s strength. This has been proven over 5000 years of recorded history.

            It’s a seasonal job. So it makes no sense for them to move. There isn’t even an argument here.

            You’re not following the conversation are you?

  27. weka 29

    849, guess what that’s the number of.

  28. dimebag russell 30

    vote howard the duck for president.
    ” the all nite party”
    admission free!

  29. fisiani 31

    Calling the Roy Morgan a rogue poll is cognitive dissonance. Will it still be a rogue when next poll shows National at 54% and the next shows 56%. Remember 64.5% agree that the country is heading in the right direction. Whacky carbon tax, rich prick tax, capital gains tax on every business , farm and bach, raising the pension age and banning coal oil and gas are hardly policies to reach 50%.

    • McFlock 31.1

      “when” the next polls shows…?
      No. If you genuinely know what they’ll be, it isn’t “rogue”, it’s fraudulent.
      But if the next result and the one after are in the region of 45%, then yeah, this one’s rogue.

    • Colonial Viper 31.2

      Yes, it’s time to go more Left, it’s time to stop being National-Lite.

      The reason no one votes for National-lite is that given the choice between a watered down substitute and the real thing of course people will go blue.

      What we need is a real red, blood red, true red Labour ready to fulfill its historical mission at last.

  30. fisiani 32

    Going more Left and getting out the yoof vote and the missing million will win the election.

  31. greywarbler 33

    This quote no doubt will have been written up before here. But it still stays top of the list of concerns. From Chris Trotter Bowalley Road –

    The David Lange-led Labour Party won 43 percent of the popular vote in 1984 on a record turn-out of 93.7 percent of registered voters. David Cunliffe should be so lucky!

    STALLED AT 30 PERCENT in the polls, Labour is still pretending it can win the General Election without help. Bluntly speaking, the party is in a state of serious, collective denial. The most frightening aspect of which, from the perspective of those New Zealanders seeking a change of government in September, is that while the condition persists National cannot possibly be defeated


    • Kiwiri 33.1

      Hmm .. just a little edit to make it more accurate:

      “Bluntly speaking, the caucus is in a state of serious, collective denial.”

  32. Graham 34

    I know it’s easy to make excuses for people but here in Canterbury there is huge job opportunity
    When I here excuses that people can’t move to where the jobs are for some bullshit reason I just laugh
    EVERYBODY in nz is descended from immigrants.
    Maori sailed across the pacific to find a new life
    Mine came from England/Norway/Scotland/Germany and you are telling me that some lazy arse in Auckland who is unemployed can’t move to Canterbury or south land where the jobs are because it’s to hard
    The naigpuhi who in their whaka attacked Maori all round the north island in the 1820s would look at there descendents with disgust
    Too lazy to travel too better their life’s

    • Colonial Viper 34.1

      It costs thousands to move a family and their belongings from Auckland to Christchurch, Graham. Not everyone has access to that money, or wants to leave behind their friends and family.

      If you weren’t such a dick you’d realise that but you’re too busy yapping on about yourself and your relatives great holiday.

    • Draco T Bastard 34.2

      you are telling me that some lazy arse in Auckland who is unemployed can’t move to Canterbury or south land where the jobs are because it’s to hard

      Nope. I’m saying that they can’t afford it. Can’t afford to live on the unemployment benefit certainly can’t afford the move to Te Wai Pounamu.

      Oh, and BTW you bigoted arsehole, they’re not lazy.

    • lprent 34.3

      I presume you’re talking about that silly “incentive” for unemployed to move from wherever (mostly Auckland?) to ChCh for the rebuild. Basically, I think that you are a just a lazy fuckwit who is too wank-arrogant or pig-stupid to think it through.

      Lets completely ignore the basic risks like you have to organize a job remotely BEFORE you can get any assistance and don’t have the money for airfares. Or that there is absolutely no security on the job in the first 90 days and you can be fired at a whim. And that regardless of why you left the job, you’ll most likely have a long stand down period from WINZ.. Lets just look at the mechanics of getting you and maybe your family down to ChCh

      Have you ever tried to move from rental accommodation to rental accommodation? Expensive to do because you have front up with between 4 and 8 weeks of rent in advance. Sure you are moving from a very expensive rent to a very slightly less expensive rent. But your bond from the old place is going to take between 4 and 8 weeks to arrive. You have to have money in the bank to do that. The amount that WINZ gives you is deliberately not enough to save anything.

      Or you leave your family in Auckland, and just move yourself. But as soon as you do that then WINZ/CYFS starts penalising you for abandonment (the horror stories of parents trying to find work somewhere and having their kids stolen by the authorities are horrendous) and you now have two lots of rent, still a bond and advance rent.

      Then you have to consider that if you take family, that you also have to cart some of your stuff. Car, kids stuff, kitchen gear, etc etc.

      Last time I moved cities from Dunedin to Auckland (in 1989) with just two adults the cost was thousands, every way that I looked at it and that was just the household junk. In the end we ruthlessly pruned and I just bought a trailer. It was cheaper. Frigging hard to do that when you don’t have any savings. And I’ll bet that cost has increased a bit since then.

      So effectively the government is expecting people to pick up stakes, move to a new city where there is a massive shortage of accommodation and do it with a pittance compared to the costs, to take a job that is probably at minimum wages, then offer no security of employment, and give you a good long stand-down period with no income if anything goes wrong.. Fuck off, who in their right mind would want to take that level of risk. Especially if they have kids to support.

      Basically the governments plan was to have a worthless plan that virtually no-one would take up and which was pure window dressing.

      It was aimed at smug lazy fuckwits like yourself who are incapable of thinking about other people and their situations without a bold dash of simple bigotry guiding your silly slogans. A pretty typical National supporter.

      Perhaps you should try doing this yourself without assets, having kids, on WINZ, and being a wee bit behind in your rent. I’ll take a bet that you’d just be a complete coward and avoid every trying something that damn risky. Just another loudmouth gutless wonder…

      (who will now proceed to whine that I called described him accurately, or will avoid answering)…

  33. Graham 35

    If you choose to turn your back on capitalism that’s your right
    You don’t have to have 60 inch TVs or flash SUVs
    Or expensive overseas holidays to live a happy life
    But don’t ask me to fund your lifestyle
    And don’t give me bullshit excuses

    • Colonial Viper 35.1

      Have you even thought about what you said?
      Or are you just sounding like an ad?
      Do you not realise capitalism is coming to an end?
      Neither your selfishness or your ignorant lifestyle
      Will help then

  34. Graham 36

    My extended family arrived in Dunedin in 1848 with a suitcase
    If you want to change your fate that’s what you do
    You dont sit and wait for a government to help you because they never will
    Only you can help your self
    Everything else is just rearrangeing the deck chairs

    • Colonial Viper 36.1

      Then you are ignorant of NZ history
      Just like you are ignorant of NZ present
      The 40 hour week
      The break up of the big farming estates
      The rural bank
      NZ government has built this nation
      Or at least given the people the tools to do so

      Not this Tory shit hole government though

    • McFlock 36.2

      you do realise society has changed in the last 165 years?

      Economic migration is a last-ditch solution. It is a leap of faith that, for poorer folk, means no return and even worse destitution if it fails.

    • lprent 36.3

      Your extended family were rather laggardly weren’t they? Many families to here or Australia came over a lot earlier.

      Most were economic migrants fleeing the destruction of craft jobs by mechanisation (always remember one weaver family member who arrived in aussie in the 1830s whose letters talked about the having to migrate from England to Ireland to Aussie as the mechanical mills took over) or the enclosure of the commons. Some came over after the various political purges across Europe in the 1840s.

      But I guess you weren’t intelligent enough to read their letters where they laid out the desperation that caused them to migrate, preferring instead to have a mythic randian relationship with reality. I’m just surprised that you haven’t inserted a big gun (aka penis extender) in there somewhere as well.

  35. Graham 37

    capitalism isn’t ending
    It destroyed communism
    And continues to evolve
    Because people like shinny cars
    Big TVs
    And holidays

    [lprent: You appear to be astroturfing slogans rather than arguing. I have just seen a comment from you almost exactly like this one. I’d suggest you desist as it leads to inanely stupid “discussions” and I’m likely to throw you off the site (yet again) if you persist in this silly tactic.

    It’d also be easier for others if you can learn to use reply or at least reference which comment you are replying to. ]

    • Colonial Viper 37.1

      Capitalism is consuming itself
      Gorging on the world’s last resources
      Here that tune the piper does still play
      One last song
      Soon payment will be due and the younger generation will be left
      With shattered dreams and desolate sacrifice zones (and your useless shiny holiday photos)
      Thanks go to you

    • Draco T Bastard 37.2

      All of those were either developed by the state or unions often working against the wishes of the capitalists. If we had followed you ideology for the last 120 years or so we’d still be a poverty stricken country – just like the 19th century.

  36. Graham 38

    Dunedin was founded in 1848
    Your forefathers can’t have been there before them

    • lprent 38.1

      I never said anything about Dunedin. But some of my european relatives were whaling here in the 1820s and 1830s after coming over from Aussie. Many settled here by 1840. I don’t recall many coming over with the NZ Land Company settlements.

      Ah.. I see. I am actually that rarity, a native born Aucklander. But I did a BSc at Waikato, and a MBA at Otago. They had better courses in my respective fields than Auckland Uni and were a lot cheaper to live in as a student.

  37. Graham 39

    In reply to irpent
    No the reference wasn’t to some grant to move
    When I was in my 20s in the late 80s
    When labour was in power farming was a bit sick
    I went to WA and did a seeding
    Then worked in Brisbane for a while
    Also moved to dunedin for a job after that
    Worked in different parts of South Island for various jobs promotions etc
    Only last 15 years in one place
    I followed the work
    Went to a city with just a bag
    Had to find a job and accodomation etc
    Put aside your national bad labour good hat for a second
    If you don’t follow the jobs then u are stuck on the benefit and even if the government gives u a few extra bucks it’s still a shit existence
    Who in the right mind wants to live in poverty
    And before you say the government needs to create jobs
    No government ever in New Zealand history. Has created long term sustainable jobs
    We are a trading nation that can grow grass
    Yes we have company’s like tait electronics or xero
    But most of the country’s wealth has come from sheep or these days milk
    And that won’t change any time soon

    • lprent 39.1

      Sure you can do that and many have as single folk. But if you did, then why would you want to go to Christchurch? You are better off going to places like the Arab Emirates, as a couple of my younger Maori relatives did. Or to Aussie to run pubs. Pay is better and the bigotry is less laden with the weird overtones than Maori get here.

      If you have a family as many of the skilled people required in ChCh do, then clearly Aussie is a far better bet. You will often get relocation expenses, the rules about arbitrarily firing people aren’t as draconian, and wages are better.

      National has actually made the local labour market more rigid with things like the 90 day rule. It makes employees a whole lot more risk adverse when looking at employers because we have all met the arsehole ones. It is far better to go somewhere where the contracts are binding in both directions.

  38. Graham 40

    Also a gain Lynn
    You said I was astro turfing in regards to the reply to cv
    He said capitalism is dead
    If you look up there is a series of
    Slogans along the lines of
    The end is nigh
    Etc etc
    From cv
    It wasn’t a attempt at starting silly slogans
    It was a reply

  39. Graham 41

    Also my understanding of nz history
    Is( useing European settlement dates)
    Nelson 1839
    Wellington 1840
    Auckland 1840
    Dunedin 1848
    Christchurch 1852
    So 1848 not really that late
    Yes there were a few traders/ whalers before that date but not many European people
    So it wasn’t until the New Zealand company and their off shoots arrived that the numbers of Europeans changed
    I am pleased to say the as far as I know none of my family had a free boat ride to NSW
    We skipped that part and went straight to god zones

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