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Open mike 05/09/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:23 am, September 5th, 2014 - 228 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

228 comments on “Open mike 05/09/2014 ”

  1. Jimmie 1

    Polls suck – if you’re a leftie lol.

    Poor old Mr Cunliffe must be beating his head against the wall this morning wondering what to do next.

    Nats over 50% and Labour slipping under 24% even after 2 weeks of the media hounding John Key?

    He can’t throw out more bribes – the bag is already bursting with goodies for everyone except rich pricks.

    Gotta be a little bit of tension building in the Labour Caucus at the moment….

    • Zorr 1.1

      The fact that the poll has National on nearly 55% support should be all the warning you need regarding this poll. That result is 10% more than the latest two polls for the same period and means that the results are outside the confidence interval for being able to cross-over.

      There should be so many warning bells about the issues with polling from that one poll and all the inconsistencies in the percentages.
      Greens under 14%? Highly unlikely. They’ve been solid on that level of support for a while.
      NZF under 5%? Puh-lease. In all honesty, the only question with NZF is if they get 6% or 8%.

      Include in this the fact that the Stuff/Ipsos poll does only land lines and you have a recipe for majorly overestimating the support for National.

      • Draco T Bastard 1.1.1

        That result is 10% more than the latest two polls for the same period and means that the results are outside the confidence interval for being able to cross-over.

        Yep, that’s a rogue and needs to be discarded. The polling company should have picked that up.

      • Olwyn 1.1.2

        What I can’t help but notice is how strategically handy these newspaper polls are to National – to the degree that it is impossible to have any confidence in them. From the “last chance to get rid of Cunliffe” poll to today’s polls which dovetail so neatly with Slater’s attempt to legally close down rawshark, the coincidences beggar belief.
        The election is the only poll that matters, and we must go on working to get our vote out.

      • Colonial Viper 1.1.3

        Labour Party support amongst men has plummeted by 40% in under 1 year. From 32.2% to 18.4%. Today 60% more women support Labour than men do.

        This is an abysmal but to my mind, unsurprising result.

        • vto

          Yep agreed, unsurprising …

          and I betcha that figure plummets further for white men… middle class men …. and older men ….

          • Colonial Viper

            What I’m waiting for now is the cartoonish caricatures of Kiwi blokes to be rolled out. As if uncaring misogynist bluster and bullshit is what New Zealand men really want from the Labour Party.

            • BM

              Cunliffe needs to be seen riding a motorcycle and chopping wood, preferably both at the same time.

              Doesn’t get any more manly and blokey than that, instant 10% in the polls.

              • tricledrown

                BM what about a 3 way handshake &Catwalk!
                you are right but don’t forget the beer with the bloke’s!

                • BM

                  That 3 way was a classic.

                  Got to hand it to Key though, he can certainly laugh at himself.

                  The amount of photos where he’s had a picture taken of himself re-enacting the 3-way with whomever is quite high.

                  • minarch

                    mmm Key, collins and slater 3-way….

                    grimy !

                  • Hanswurst

                    Key laughs at his own stuff all the time. The trouble is, he’s naturally unfunny. The man’s like a fount of negative humour. Every one-liner, every joke assails the senses, raises a groan and makes one that little bit less likely to laugh.

            • vto

              It is a true shame that Labour does not appeal to such a large sector of society..

              maybe if they and their supporters stopped apologising for being a man…. stopped pointing fingers at old white men so much …. stopped painting them as bad people ….

              no wisdom.

              … sorry for being a man … ffs

              • Colonial Viper

                Boo to you vto. The answer for Labour out of this slump is to delve deeper and more explicitly into gender politics and policies. What are you afraid of you chauvinist dino? Sticking to your principles is a damn sight more important than anything else, right.

                • blue leopard

                  It would appear from VTO’s comment, that Labour have failed to address male identity, yet in response you appear to be being sarky about such an approach?

                  Or am I misunderstanding your comment?

                  What do you think Labour needs to do with regard to the loss of male support?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    If men supported Labour at the same rate as women, Labour would be sitting 7% higher in the polls.

                    The problem is dire.

                    What do you think Labour needs to do with regard to the loss of male support?

                    I’ve already outlined my position very extensively on previous comment threads. The feedback I remember receiving is that I should stop talking about Labour and “identity politics” versus “economic justice” because no real problem.

                    Well, today it’s a 7%, roughly 9 MP, problem.

                    • blue leopard

                      I was asking you today, not really so keen to go back searching for previous conversations on the matter.

                      I am not so very focussed on ‘identity’ politics, myself (as I have noted previously), however I do see that jumping up and down against ‘identity’ as you have done, sort of focusses on the most negative factor of the issue and therefore tend to agree with that advice you say you were given.

                      The media also do this, focus on the male vs female, they make it an either/or issue. And raise this narrative anytime Labour make any moves to balance up imbalances. Of course the propagandists would do this – the propagandists know this is the best way to put people off.

                      Another example of this is done against people attempting to address issues for Maori, the narrative suddenly becomes about ‘ohh privileges for Maori, whities are losing out’ and this is simply not accurate at all when a political approach is trying to address disadvantages built into the system against Maori.

                      I read an interesting article recently and this section made me recall that whole furore about ‘identity’:


                      Marxists gave us the concept of “class consciousness” and it has been incorporated by other left-wing movements. In basic terms it is a recognition of a societal structure of inequality and injustice.

                      In individual cases it has become problematic, and there may be a need to redefine classes with some of the middle classes having become, essentially, privileged proletarians while many lesser capitalists are subject to the expropriation of their own labour value which actually goes to bigger oligopolistic or monopolistic interests. At the same time an executive class robs capital from investors. Nevertheless, there is a role for class consciousness if it is not dogmatic.

                      At the same time, the left-wing has also discovered numerous other “consciousnesses” which point to the structural elements of an unjust society. Thus the left-wing is: class, race, gender and environmentally conscious. “Race” can be taken to include ethnicity, “gender” to include sexuality. Thus post-structuralism, which asserts that all of this “identity” politics is irrelevant in today’s pluralist world (after all, there’s a black man in the Whitehouse) is actually a right-wing stance.


                      [I broke it up into paragraphs, so hopefully it is easier to read]

                      I do accept that ‘apologising for being a man’, and especially the spin placed around it, put off some people (have detailed that elsewhere on this thread), however the drop in male support occurred earlier in the year and I suggest perhaps what needs to happen is for a more assertive and focussed strategy to counter the propaganda techniques that are rife – rather than buying into the propaganda and being appeasing and accommodating toward it.

                      If there are groups who are disadvantaged in the country – how does one address the imbalance without singling them out somewhat? That is how the propaganda works – it turns a redressing imbalance into an ‘us vs them’ scene.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      and I suggest perhaps what needs to happen is for a more assertive and focussed strategy to counter the propaganda techniques that are rife – rather than buying into the propaganda and being appeasing and accommodating toward it.

                      So we’re going with the idea that it must be Labour’s weak messaging and counterspin which has resulted in 60% more women supporting Labour then men? I think its perhaps just one factor amongst many substantial ones.

                    • blue leopard

                      That retirement policy prob isn’t helping… 🙂

                      …and yes I do think spin is playing a HUGE part.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      The retirement policy is a big ingredient in the bad/weak political economic stuff, yes.

                      Remember guys die years earlier than women. Maori guys have it worst of all. These are traditional Labour voters who get smashed worst by Labour’s policy.

        • BM

          All part of the grand vision for labour.

        • greywarbler

          @ colonial viper
          Why are men walking from Labour particularly do you think ? Do Labour seem weak on getting business going, enterprise, the economy? Is the perception that it seems only interested in charitable works, helping out the suffering, sort of like a non-religious not-for-profit that hasn’t got any mojo for leading the country into the
          smart, hard working, profitable business-oriented style that men are hankering after.

          • Colonial Viper

            In brief and IMO, Kiwi guys want a Labour Party which is hands on, practical, unapologetically red, straight up, staunch and steely eyed, focussed on economic justice and rebuilding our depleted society. A seriously gutsy Labour Party willing to implement serious change not just manage details. A Labour Party which was each of those things would also have huge headroom to push for socially liberal change on issues some might consider “identity politics.”

            This is consistent with what I’ve argued for at length, previously.

            • greywarbler

              @ colonial viper
              Interesting. David Cunliffe gave men the opportunity to make those points to him with his invitation to email him earlier on. I wonder what sort of responses he got? Perhaps women were foremost there as being mor articulate with a willingness to communicate. Perhaps the strong opinions of men would have to be dragged out of them over a beer?

              Perhaps the men have absorbed the rugged individualistic approach from Roger’s union-dodgers. Now if a man can’t front up and take whatever, without a union to nurse him along, then he isn’t a real man? The farmers tend to not want to accept social welfare when everything turns to mud for them. Because they are too proud and bigotedand have bad-mouthed beneficiaries so don’t want to accept help from others when difficulties mount up.

              Perhaps this shooting-oneself-in-the-foot attitude that promotes stubborn pride in suffering alone and finding one’s own salvation is at the root now of men falling away from Labour. After all it was Labour who led them to believe that they shouldn’t protest about the introduction of Rogernomics. This was a letdown from those supposed to have an intelligent overview of the situation and supposed to be supporting ordinary working men Now possibly they have built a picture of Labour as having had its day as a viable group working for the benefit of ordinary men. It’s now interested in providing a pillow for the dying working man and woman, and those in politics more for their own advancement as a career.

              • Colonial Viper

                Interesting. David Cunliffe gave men the opportunity to make those points to him with his invitation to email him earlier on. I wonder what sort of responses he got?

                Assuming the poll is representative, very few of the 150,000 or so men who have moved on from Labour over the last year are going to have engaged with Cunliffe through a mechanism like that.

                And what exactly can Cunliffe can change about Labour Party culture and socialisation, he’s just one man.

                • greywarbler

                  @ Colonial viper
                  Do you think that men don’t connect Labour with solid business friendly policies, but just ameliorating the lives of losers. To put it short and sour!
                  You didn’t say anything about the latter part of my comment.

                  And I agree that Cunliffe is doing his best. I just wondered if any useful view of what’s in men’s minds showed up in his emails.

                  And why wouldn’t men be susceptible to image. The one that men receive and the one that women receive will depend on which view of the man from mirror city they are looking at. But his clever advisors will choose a look that suits the sensitivities of the viewers. And we all are sensitive to propaganda, that is known.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    But his clever advisors will choose a look that suits the sensitivities of the viewers. And we all are sensitive to propaganda, that is known.

                    Yes. And it’s working much better for the sensitivities of women voters than male voters.

                    Do you think that men don’t connect Labour with solid business friendly policies, but just ameliorating the lives of losers. To put it short and sour!
                    You didn’t say anything about the latter part of my comment.

                    I think that I answered this above and its nothing to do with beneficiaries or losers, or being “business” friendly or not.

                    It’s to do with being gutsy, staunch and standing by the principles you espouse – whatever they are. As I said above:

                    A seriously gutsy Labour Party willing to implement serious change not just manage details.

              • millsy

                A theory I’m kicking around is that prior to 1987 most of the tradies in this country were employed by the Ministry of Works, Ministry of Energy, NZ Post Office, the power boards, NZ Forest Service etc, all vertically integrated outifits that were heavily unionised.

                When the above organisations were “restructured” (that is why I chose 1987) a lot of those tradies were laid off and used the generous redundancies they got paid to start their own businesses and contract back to the new corporate entities that grew in their place.

                Almost overnight, they moved from being working class tradespeople to being middle class business owners and employers (and as a concequence, National voters).

                • miravox

                  I’ve been wondering about this too Millsy. Self-employed contractors have a legal business entity, use accountants and lawyers and negotiate contracts and may have quite different perceptions on ‘economy’ and expectations of employment and social equity when compared with the old version of tradies.

                  Traditional Labour concerns that split the ‘workers’ from the ‘bosses’ can be destructive when these contractors are themselves tradies but also often take on the financial risks of employing apprentices and other low-skilled/low paid workers.

                  Changing business practices like contracting mean that Labour is talking to a smaller group of traditional supporters.

                • blue leopard

                  That tallies.

            • blue leopard

              @ CV,

              It would appear that votes are being lost to National.

              If this is so, it kinda doesn’t make sense that what you say is what these guys are looking for if they are prepared to vote National over Labour.

              National are far further removed from the picture you paint than Labour are. (And why don’t they move to Mana??)

              Perhaps these shifting voters are more susceptible to voting for image (‘someone they could have a beer with’) or ‘for The Winner’ [the one who has been framed as being the winning team forever by the media], than you are caring to accept?

              • Colonial Viper

                How is this not just more blaming the victim talk? Men are more susceptible to voting for image and superficiality than women are etc. Seriously? When National support amongst women is still 3:2 to Labour’s?

                • blue leopard

                  With a response like that, it doesn’t sound like you are interested in actually delving into the matter.

                  Hopefully someone else will have some suggestions as to what could gain Labour or the left more support and stop people lurching over to the corrupt, bunch of spinners.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    Don’t tell me what I’m interested in or not please.

                    My view is that I’ve already “delved into the matter” in great depth. I’m the one who signalled months ago that Labour was in deep shit with its chosen balance between, and approach to, identity politics vs political economics. Mostly, I wasn’t listened to, and in general, I was discredited for speaking up.

                    The only thing which has changed is we have new data. The crushing that Labour is getting in the polls has been quantified in terms of a rapidly worsening gender balance in its support base.

                    TL:DR – NZ males don’t feel included, listened to or represented by Labour and are fucking off in droves.

                    And some feminists will have no real issue with that as it proves once and for all that these men have a real attitude problem.

                    What more delving do you want.

                    • blue leopard

                      If I wanted to tell you what you were interested in I would have written:

                      ‘You aren’t interested in delving into the matter’

                      I have no interest in telling someone what they are or aren’t interested in, so, as you should be able to work out now, that is not what I wrote.

    • Bearded Git 1.2

      My guess is the latest Roy Morgan poll has it about right.

      Labour 26 Green 16 NZF 6=48=Cunliffe as PM.

    • Rosie 1.3

      Polls – schmolls.

      If you believe them then here’s one for you Jimmie:

      This readers poll has on Virginia Andersen on 58.7% to win Ohariu. Wouldn’t that be great!


      You right wingers shouldn’t feel so cocky. Even Steven Joyce on RNZ this a.m is saying they know it will be extremely close. As for Our Ginny, I feel it in my waters that she will win by a whisker, and boo hoo, no more Dunne to cosy up with National.

      • yeshe 1.3.1

        this would be a fine thing … I backing ‘your waters’ for the win Rosie ! I have similar sensibilities for the whole country.

        • Rosie

          Ditto your feelings about the whole country yeshe. I dare not dream it until it happens though!

    • It just shows how authoritarian NZ has become. Time to give up on democracy.

  2. Adrian 2

    Bullshit. Get out on the street and talk to people, people who used to vote National !

    • Rob 2.1

      You are correct Adrian, there are some people who used to vote National. But there is a truck load more people who used to vote Labour. Anyone with even remotely open vision can see that.

  3. Enough is Enough 3

    The polls just happen to both be funded by corporate media outlets.

  4. crocodill 4

    First thing to consider: Labour is neither Left, Senior Left, or the saviour of the Left. If Greens and Mana etc can’t get their message out to the public, that’s their problem, not Labour’s. Their policies are strong enough without Labour watering them down as entry fee into Coalition.

    Second thing to consider is that the misperception that Labour is the Left and the Left is Labour has been propagated very effectively. That being the case, anything that rides the border of “…the Left does it too!” as per National’s claims, isn’t helping Labour or the Left.

    Third thing, and it really amazes me, is that somehow in NZ people have decided that they have no mind of their own. If their friends or family say to go right, then they go right. So the people as groups are the problem, if people can be a problem to themselves. Because that would suggest that “Don’t vote don’t complain” actually means “Vote against your conscience and then complain”.

  5. Tigger 5

    One word: Watergate.

    Key may win but in six months he will wish he had not.

  6. veutoviper 6

    Apologies if someone has already provided a link to this Selwyn Manning article, but IMHO it is a MUST READ in terms of an insight into what is going on within the National Party vis a vis the Dirty Politics saga – and all is not well.


    Edit – Now see that Karol linked to it at 2 on the Slater injunction post. But will leave it here as it really is a Must Read.

    • Tigger 6.1

      A good reminder for me – if the latest poll news has got you down read or reread this piece.

      “But as one contact said to me this week: “There has been no crisis management around this [dirty politics crisis]. No one has gone away and read all emails sent by National MPs or National staffers to Cam Slater.”

      If this is true then truly Key is a worse leader than I thought.

      • phillip ure 6.1.1

        the slater/ede comms are the delight still to come..

        ..and these are what will inflict major damage on key..

        ..(and this is no doubt why slater is in court..trying to stop their release..)

        ..the downing of collins was just an entree in this banquet..

        ..the two main courses are yet to come..

        ..those slater/ede comms..and the greenwald/assange spooking-dirt-dump..

        ..five days b4 the polls close..

        ..and i wd echo that call for those glummed by todays’ polls..

        ..to keep these facts in mind..

        ..if this were a three-act play..we are nearing the end of the first act..

        ..there is so much more to come/happen..(heh..!..)

        ..so i wd urge all to hang-tough..and to relax..not stress..

        ..and to make sure they enjoy the ‘ride’..

        ..we have two more weeks of this to go..

        ..it sure as hell ain’t boring..eh..?

        • tricledrown

          So long as KDC is careful when he releases evidence that proves John Key was lying!
          Every one knows he is a Liar it only has slightly dented his popularity!
          So KDC gloating about proving Key being a Liar Most likely would backfire!
          Especially the Way Kim dumbarse’s comments have already
          damaged the Whole lefts credibility!

          • Once Was Tim

            Ekshly, given the Blue Leopard/CV discussion above, there’s one thing I’ve noticed with the Kiwi bloke over the years …..Key’s pathological bullshitting is seen as staunch and tuff and likable even – because the ‘Kiwi bloke is now amongst the biggest tellers of tall stories I’ve come across. Bloody shame their spouses don’t give them absolute arseholes over their kaka.

            • Murray Olsen

              There is a certain type of Kiwi bloke who does nothing but bullshit, but I’ve never thought of it as a likeable trait. Maybe what I see as being an absolute wanker is actually popular. People are funny.

        • Bearded Git

          Thanks phillip. I needed that after MR hitting me with “Major boost to Nats who can govern alone” just as I woke up followed by Smug Joyce.

          I take heart from the fact that many more people than usual are voting in the NZ election in London and at home the Advance Vote level is high. A good turnout favours the Left and also supports a “lets chuck this lot out” feel.

        • CnrJoe

          i hear y phil

        • left for dead

          too true.smiley face

        • Bob

          “the slater/ede comms are the delight still to come..
          ..and these are what will inflict major damage on key..”

          Looks like there is nothing to come Phil (Whaledump2 signs off), if there was anything linking Key to any of this I am sure it would have been released so looks like I was right in saying links to Key were all unsubstantiated.

          ..Sometimes it pays to stick to facts and ignore innuendo..eh..?

          • phillip ure

            often such disclosures are all a matter of timing..dear boy….

            ..i wd suggest you keep watching that space..eh..?

            ..or..u cd cling to yr sheet-anchor of it-must-be-all-over..

            ..and how are you waving away the spooking-dump to come..?

            ..what are the mechanics of that denial..?..


            ..and why do you think slater is in court 2day..?

            ..trying to close the stable-door after all the horses have bolted..?

            ..i can still hear the whinnying from inside there..

    • Saarbo 6.2

      Yes, it provides an interesting insight into how National handle internal ructions versus the Left . The Rights natural cunningness seems to mean that they handle their internal ructions behind closed doors while the Left hangs all its dirty washing for all to see. Which brings me back to the incredibly demoralising poll’s mentioned on RNZ at 7.00am news…National are still above 50%…UNBELIEVABLE.
      Our first reaction was to ask how thick and immoral are the 50% who continue to support John Key and his corrupt government, don’t these people give a shit for our democracy but then when they hear John Key state “Labour do it too”, these voters think back to the ABC’s constant attacks including the last shocker only a month ago when an ABC’er attacked DC for a 3 day break in the school holidays. I guess people wont change their votes easily and Labour is coming back from some pretty public internal spats, which I suspect voters are equating with #dirtypolitics.
      On top of this, Labour are trying to sell a very necessary CGT, but don’t underestimate the powerful interests who oppose this. It was never going to be easy to sell CGT.

      • Gosman 6.2.1

        Yes and as a result if you are trying to sell a CGT you had better be all over the detail rather than not knowing it.

        • tricledrown

          Like tax cuts that will never happen
          goose Nactionals fair weather friend

        • Saarbo

          As an ex bean counter, I can say that most accountants would struggle to answer all questions on a particular tax policy without a tax manual at their side…testing DC on whether he can recall every little piece of detail on a tax policy is a sure fire winner for John Key…more cunning stuff from the most dishonest Prime Minister NZ has ever had.

          • The Lone Haranguer

            I too am a beancounter. While we work with the tax legislation nearby and tax experts on speed dial, nobody expects Cunnliffe to be a beancounter.

            But we do expect him to be up to date with his own party policy (especially since we are told it was he helped write the policy) and we expect him to be able to explain it in a manner that voters can understand.

            We didnt get that at all the other night and we havent had it since. We still have no idea exactly how a Labour led government will implement the CGT on inheritance houses. All we do know is that in about 10 years, the Govt will collect around $1 billion per years from the tax, and we only know that because Phil Twyford said it on TV yesterday.

            Lets be honest Key ate Cunliffe alive.

            • lprent

              One of the problems with being in opposition is that it rather harder to define an implementation than it is to define a policy. You don’t have access to the micro level data that would allow you to do it.

              That is why National’s policies in 2005/8 were pretty damn pathetic – and why they varied a *lot* after they got elected.

              You’re just doing the equivalent of pissing into the wind if you expect the kind of precision that you are demanding.

              Lets be honest Key ate Cunliffe alive.

              It appears that you were watching the same debate as John Armstrong. The second half in particular had John Key telling bullshit about Christchurch directly to a Christchurch audience who were living in it. I suspect National lost the election then.

            • Saarbo

              @The Lone Haranguer
              Yes, you epitomise the Accounting profession: probably good on detail but abysmal on the overall big picture stuff, I always found that this basic quality made a good accountant because no sane, balanced, big pictured person could spend their whole life in such an incredibly boring profession, no offense. Anyway, CGT is one of the blocks that is required to ensure money is invested in productive industry, absolutely critical if we want to move away from our obsession with investment houses and over priced dairy farms. The details that you say DC should know will obviously be worked on once in government, but given that CGT is implemented in Australia and every other western nation then Labour wont have to reinvent the wheel.

              I also would have thought that the ICANZ’s high standards around ethics would have had some alarm bells ringing around john Keys behaviour…I guess you are happy to turn a blind eye to this, nice one.

              • The Lone Haranguer

                Saarbo, somebodys got to look at the detail in the policies, so its either us accountants or its the quantity surveyors. And Im not sure you can trust them 🙂

                You suggest a CGT will divert $$ to productive industry, but dont recognise dairy farms as a productive industry? Turning green grass into white milk is one of those things we are very good at, so I cant see that diverting investment money out of dairying will reap the rewards we all seek.

                ICANZ? I know its detail, but we havent been called that for years. Thats about two name changes ago.

                And finally, I find the ethics of many political parties to be quite undesirable. But then I have to recognise that the purpose of a political party is to get into power and to inflict their policies upon the nation. So while I find the Nats suggesting unaffordable tax cuts to be poor policy, I also recall the WFF policy and the interest free student loans policies to be equally poor policy.

                There is no good reason for the State to be subsidising employers, (pay a decent wage) and any half decent policy wonk would know that interest free loans would lead to abuse – crap courses that really help nobody except the owners of the courses, and disguise the unemployment rates.

                • Saarbo

                  @The Lone Haranger

                  Sorry, a bit behind the 8 ball on some of the operational changes in ICANZ, I see they have merged with Aus or something, “detail” is not my thing. Anyway, go to page 28 of the latest Acuity Magazine (CA Aus and NZ, CAANZ…got it right this time), there is a good article on “Long Term Thinking”, a robust debate on superannuation and tax policies for the next NZ government…it is written by CAANZ CEO Lee White…interestingly he argues for a broadening of the tax base and on Pg 30 he clearly argues that one of the options to broaden the tax base is implementing of CGT. He also argues for spending on disadvantaged children and increasing the age of eligibility for superannuation. Labour’s policies are most aligned with his thinking, as would be most people who have the long term future of New Zealand at heart. Good to see that the bean counters have “big picture” person running the joint.

                  Regarding dairy farms, I didn’t say that CGT would divert money away from dairy farms, what I meant is that CGT may help moderate the value of dairy farms. The biggest cost on dairy farms in NZ is now Interest cost, in fact Interest cost is so high, our cost of production is not much lower then US and Europe, which is crazy. This is driven by the absurd valuations…and guess who benefits from this: Australian banks. Dairy farms will be getting around $5.50 per kg ms in the 2014/15 year, banks will on average take over $1 of this in interest revenue, and farmers will end up increasing their debt to put food on their tables.

                  • The Lone Haranguer

                    Theres a lot you say that I actually agree with, so dont assume that “accountant = National supporter come voter” in all instances.

                    I do think that a CGT needs to be properly explained to the voters as its a proposed new tax for New Zealand. And I think the recent efforts by Labour have not helped the CGT cause at all, or Labours election hopes.

                    Voters are looking for some level of certainty,

                    I personally support lower income tax (flat even) the introduction of UBI and a transaction tax on the banking sector. I note that the Labour CGT does not appear to address share sales and I would have thought that was the second largest area of tax free wealth in the country – altho contained in far fewer hands than the property driven tax free wealth.

                    I also am at a loss to understand how it is that Labour can say a CGT will take the speculation out of the property market, thereby helping with housing affordability, while also saying (again Phil Twyford on TV yesterday morning) that they will raise $1B per year from the tax.

                    If property values dont rise the tax will be a fizzer.

                    Your thoughts?

                    • Saarbo

                      I have no doubt that the CGT will have an affect on asset values, but it wont provide the solution on its own….which I guess supports Twyford’s statement. $1b per annum assumes capital gains of $6.666b per annum. Interestingly between 1987 and 2013 house values alone (i.e doesn’t include farms, businesses etc which CGT would capture) increased $453b (refer attached (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11299685 )…of course our own private homes are not included, but this provides some feel for how conservative Twyford is been.

                      I think Labour has been clear, CGT is just one of the building blocks that will help re-balance the economy, I don’t think they have ever stated that it will provide the solution for over inflated asset prices on its own.

                      Im a big fan of “fairness” and believe that we need to use tax policy in this area more, sometimes right wingers frame this as “politics of envy, which is bull shit…just so you know where I am coming from:-)

            • The Lone Haranguer

              Sorry I should have said, “in relation to the tax discussion, lets be honest, Key ate Cunliffe alive”

              I agree that Key was pretty hopeless on the earthquake and Christchurch, but I dont think it will cost them the election (tho the Stuff poll has the Canterbury vote at 59.2% which is the highest level in the country and just isnt going to happen anytime soon if you go by comments on the Press webpage)

            • Rodel

              LH-I was in the front row and it appears that you weren’t there. Cunliffe’s speeches were well received by Cantabrians.

              Key’s snide one liners were well received by the private school kids beside me.

              Cunliffe tall and positive spoke to Cantabrians.
              Key short and reptilian spoke to childish Tories.

              To say ‘anybody ate anybody’ is the sort of meaningless language that Key uses.
              Trouble is he gets away with it with superficial people.

    • ianmac 6.3

      Thanks veutoviper, Karol and of course Selwyn.
      The recent polls just don’t make sense. The most hardened Nat backers must hang on with blind eyes but there must be many who do care about the integrity of NZ’s system of Governance? And sooner preferably or later a Royal Commission must be called.

      It is likely that Slater has read back through his emails and realised that there is real dirt re Eade. Hence last ditch effort to block publication. Of course Joyce is right. No one in National has anything to do with the injunction. Ha ha! After all Mr Key has done nothing wrong so nothing to fear.

    • Rosie 6.4

      Thanks for the very interesting article vv. As an aside to the Ede story I had been wondering how Nat volunteers had been getting on with their door knocking and campaigning and that article makes it clear that they are facing difficulties.

      The more morally stout volunteer must be feeling conflicted and even betrayed by their own party. I almost feel sorry for them.

  7. b waghorn 7

    Reply to Tigger. If they win won’t they just cover it up and carry on as usual

    • no..they wouldn’t be allowed to get away with that..

      ..there are already too many investigations under way..

      ..the watergate-references aren’t out of place..

  8. Dont worry. Be happy 8

    Just looking at the massive slide in the male vote for Labour….and wondering are all those selfies with the All Blacks paying off for Key?

    There is I understand a no surprises policy between the All Blacks Management and this Government. Is there also a relationship which links the ABs brand to public money?

    And how come, twice in this campaign, Key has trotted out his close relationship with the ABs when the whole country was watching and not a peep from the national rugby team? The first time was during the first debate when Key claimed to know that the ABs had hacked the Wallaby’s line up and the second time was as he sailed on stage, in front of the country’s assembled media at the National Party Conference: His opening line, referrencing Obama’s campaigning slogan, “Richie just texted, ‘Yes, you can’.

    Some explaining to do Rugby Union. Or should we just wait for the emails to be released?

    • BM 8.1

      Just looking at the massive slide in the male vote for Labour….and wondering are all those selfies with the All Blacks paying off for Key?

      The All blacks? hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha…………………………………

      I don’t think so, try

      – I’m sorry for being a Man
      – Gender quotas
      – All Men who have sex are considered rapists unless otherwise proven

      I’d be surprised if male support made up more than 10% of labours vote.

      • ExStatic 8.1.1

        I see your point but I think the 18% male support for Cunliffe is under stated, it just seems too extreme to be true. The continued fall in Labour support is good news long term for the a greens but the left as a group need to win this election! Norman should take over fronting the big issues and Labour should work in more with the left wing party on the rise.
        Edit: Maths

        • Gosman

          That would do wonders for Cunliffe’s standing in the preferred PM stakes.

        • karol

          Norman does well in fronting economic and climate issues. Turei is excellent on issues of poverty and inequality. At John Campbell’s Dinner for the Undecided, Turei did a great job in responding to Whyte’s dodgy theories about raising worker productivity as the way end poverty/inequality. Laila Harre didn’t do as well, even though she later came back with some very good points.

        • Draco T Bastard

          I see your point but I think the 18% male support for Cunliffe is under stated, it just seems too extreme to be true.

          I suppose that depends upon where it’s going. Labour may be losing male support but that doesn’t mean that it’s leaving the left.

          • karol

            Also, from the Young article, it looks like the Nats are gradually losing support from women.

            • Colonial Viper

              Yep. The numbers have dropped for National. Now, only 49% more women support National, than Labour. Put another way, female support for National ahead of Labour has dropped to a mere 3:2.

              (That is, 43% female support for National, 28.9% for Labour.)

              The Greens will garner a lot of the remaining female votes.

    • Gosman 8.2

      Yeah, go after the NZRFU. That would guarantee massive amounts of publicity. Problem would be it would be all negative but what the hey.

      • greywarbler 8.2.1

        Hello Gosman how ya been? You’re incisive comments are coming thick and fast today. Left your post to a lot of wannabes, just when you should be on the ball! Nothing since 27/8 and now spraying it around like air freshener. That’s what we need after all the bad odour that Nats have got into.

        • Gosman

          I don’t support National so I don’t know why what happens with them has anything to do with me.

  9. tricledrown 9

    Big Meeow dead cat bounce!

  10. tricledrown 10

    Bullying Misogynist when 38% of all Women claim to have been sexually abused(probably under reported)
    That makes you a creep and an abuse enabler!

    • ExStatic 10.1

      Maybe he is, but the Greens realized early on that there were no votes in attacking men over gender issues. Although fronting the rape culture early, they realized it was a turn off for male voters. Labour seem slow to get that identity politics have a small following in the general public.
      Plenty of time to achieve something there when we get into power.

      • BM 10.1.1

        The labour party seems to be the spiritual home of all the people who think that identity politics is the most important issue facing NZ. This complete disconnect with the rest of NZ is what is killing the labour party.

        Problem is, it seems these individuals are so deeply rooted into the workings and decision making of the labour party you can’t get rid of them.

        Reminds me very much of what has happened to the Republican party in the states,
        fundamentalist Christians got involved, took over and have pretty much destroyed that party with their extremism.

        • crocodill

          Identity politics is a pretty broad term, BM. I know how important it is and I don’t vote Labour and would be quite comfortable being called “anti-feminist”. What is more important than the relationship between genders, between groups of any kind? Are you saying that anything other than status quo is unacceptable? Is that your interpretation of the “threat” of Identity Politics?

      • karol 10.1.2

        Oh. please, the Greens are excellent on gender, race and sexuality equality. They put it into practice. It’s about being an inclusive and a fair society and organisation. The “identity politics” slur is based on fallacies and inaccuracies of what a fair and inclusive society is all about.

        And the Greens are also excellent on worker rights’ policies.

        It’s not the gender, sexuality politics that will turn off left wing men, it’s the weaknesses in policies on fairness at work and social security, etc.

        • weka

          “It’s not the gender, sexuality politics that will turn off left wing men, it’s the weaknesses in policies on fairness at work and social security, etc.”


          I’m guessing perception is part of it too. How much is feeling let down by Labour policy as opposed to reacting to how Labour policy is reported in the MSM?

          • Colonial Viper

            I strongly believe that Men can speak for themselves, thanks. We have our own political agency without this ongoing woman-rationalising on our behalf. Which although well meaning embodies a tonne of gendered assumptions about what is important to men. And to be blunt, you don’t really know how we feel, our life experiences and what our priorities and problems are, thanks. If you want to really help us, how about you listen to us for change and stop telling us what we should be thinking.

            *yes I am being a cheeky bastard.

            • weka

              well, I did ask a question CV. Would you like to answer it?

              I can only talk about the men I know and read about and hear about. Not all men by any means.

              • Colonial Viper

                I’m guessing perception is part of it too. How much is feeling let down by Labour policy as opposed to reacting to how Labour policy is reported in the MSM?

                What you’ve written begins to touch on a few of the issues. But this is not about a couple of poor policy launches or biased MSM stories. That would minimise what has gone on over an extended period of time. Why do I say “extended period”?

                Because Labour as a political party was definitely male dominated 20 years ago. No argument there. Things have now flipped so completely that in this survey, Labour is now 60% more popular with women than with men. It’s almost, but not quite, a completely unbalanced 5:3 ratio, F:M.

                And its the kind of result you might see from a political party which has deliberately decided to focus on appealing to women only.

                What to do about it? Fuck knows. Many in Labour won’t even see that there’s a problem. And the disconnect with the NZ electorate will continue.

                • McFlock

                  And its the kind of result you might see from a political party which has deliberately decided to focus on appealing to women only.

                  It’s also the kind of result one might see from a party that had significant support from disenfranchised folk who wanted to address capitalist privilege without giving up their own social privilege.

                  • crocodill

                    “address capitalist privilege without giving up their own social privilege.”

                    That sounds involved. How would anyone do that? Or is that the new way of saying bourgeois without sounding old-fashioned? Surely there’d be not much left of the “social” once you took away the “capitalist”?

                    • McFlock

                      is money really the only way you can conceive of interacting with another human being?

                    • crocodill

                      Nope, but you said these people were keen on doing it and presumably exist. How would they do it from within a capitalist reality? Never seen any practical long-term examples. Ever. Not communal living, nothing. It all fails inside capitalism.

                    • McFlock

                      No I didn’t. I merely posited another possible explanation for the demographic change CV reported, rather than assuming that the Labour Party was solely marketed at and focused towards women.

                      Anyway, I think a chap called Karl wrote some ditties on how to achieve a society that treats people equally rather than giving the bulk of power to rich people. Look him up, for starters.

                    • crocodill

                      So that’s a no then. Fair enough. I don’t know where all the covert anarchists are either. If I ever get short of condescending “left wing men” I’ll look you up, though. LOL “try reading marx” who the hell you think you’re talking to pal?

                    • McFlock

                      if you think that I answered “no” to your question, you need to get a dictionary.

                • weka

                  Of course I didn’t say this was about a few biased MSM stoires, and speaking of minimising, the stories haven’t been few.

                  “Because Labour as a political party was definitely male dominated 20 years ago. No argument there. Things have now flipped so completely that in this survey, Labour is now 60% more popular with women than with men. It’s almost, but not quite, a completely unbalanced 5:3 ratio, F:M.”

                  Aren’t you conflating two things there? Male dominated (by MPs and membership positions?), and woman who might vote Labour? I haven’t seen the research, was it about Labour members, confirmed Labour voters, or women voters who prefer Labour?

                  We can argue theories around this, but you’re not really telling me much about what left wing men think.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    We can argue theories around this, but you’re not really telling me much about what left wing men think.

                    No one has been interested in what “left wing men” think for a very long time. Most are too old fashioned and sexist, appallingly socially conservative for the 21st century, too busy obstructing the progress of feminism and identity politics in favour of their own narrow priorities, and clearly and desperately trying to maintain their hold over male privilege.

                    • McFlock

                      dude, bitching about never being asked is a bit stupid when it’s your response to actually being asked.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Mate, I wouldn’t want to be accused of man-splaining, so maybe another time.

                    • McFlock

                      Interestingly enough, answering a question by going off on a tangent about how that very question is never asked is about as dickish as mansplaining.

                    • weka

                      “No one has been interested in what “left wing men” think for a very long time. Most are too old fashioned and sexist, appallingly socially conservative for the 21st century, too busy obstructing the progress of feminism and identity politics in favour of their own narrow priorities, and clearly and desperately trying to maintain their hold over male privilege.”

                      🙄 Just remember, you said all that, not anyone else in this conversation.

                    • karol

                      Just watching the minor leaders debate…. damn, those womenz sure dominate politics, left & right!

                    • karol

                      Just watching the minor leaders debate…. damn, those womenz sure dominate politics, left & right!

            • blue leopard

              Considering you have been very vocal over female issues, yes I agree with you CV, you are being a cheeky bastard. 😯

              • Clemgeopin

                What minor party leaders debate? Was it today?

                Is it available on demand or is there a link please? I would love to watch!

            • McFlock

              What’s this “we”, CV?

              Speaking as a leftwing male who isn’t a self-loathing labourite, of course.

              • Colonial Viper

                You’re clearly not one of the men who have left Labour in the polling period being considered as you’re not a Labour voter or supporter.

                • McFlock

                  lol actually, I might well be a labour voter this year. They’ve been the best option in the last few survey’s I’ve responded to.

                  Not sure who I ticked last time.

                  But I might well be one of the left wing men who can recognise that all the left-wing economics and union membership possible will be slater-level hypocrisy until this society stops treating women (and other “others”) like shit.

        • blue leopard

          ” it’s the weaknesses in policies on fairness at work and social security, etc.”

          That doesn’t make sense. They wouldn’t be running to National if that was the case.

          Men overall are enjoying better conditions than women.


          And Votecompass (if one accepts self-selected non scientific methods) indicate that women are more concerned about social conditions, whereas men favour economic issues.


          Which leads me to conclude that Weka’s suggestion is probably closer to the truth, that men are more susceptible to the mainstream propaganda. This is corroborated by the support going to National, and if economic issues were of concern for men, then surely they would understand that the economy has fared better under Labour time and time again?

          I suggest the reason they don’t grasp that last fact is because they are being totally fooled by mainstream spin.

          The drop in support by men, if I recall correctly, was around the start of the year when the mainstream were massively attacking Cunliffe. The ‘apology for being a man’, while clearly didn’t go down well for men (if internet conversations are anything to go by), was inflamed by the way the msm covered it. They could have clarified the meaning, but instead they chose to hype the whole thing up.

          For example, I took Cunliffe’s comments over domestic violence showed he had a good grasp on the wider culture that helps to breed domestic violence, and that he was asking men to be proactive in addressing the issue – not solely focusing on women, and his apology, while perhaps clumsy, was not the big ‘all men are to blame’ thing that a lot of men, because they reacted emotionally, erroneously took it to be – and this perception was totally fueled by the media.

          It would be good to see the men, who were supporting Labour and now moving to National in response to the massive propaganda we have been subjected to, learning to find ways to overcome their vulnerability to spin, is my conclusion. They need to realise they are being manipulated.

          • weka

            “They wouldn’t be running to National if that was the case.”

            Are they? I thought they were running to NZF or just not voting. We are talking on gross generalities here though.

            • blue leopard

              Yes, gross generalities, and potentially inaccurate polls! ( 🙁 )

              However, yes they are according to Ipsos, which is the only data I know of that has regularly provided gender breakdowns.

              I will go and have a look for that data, but last Ipsos they didn’t provide it – which was an interesting omission – and am unsure if I can access the older versions,

              • blue leopard

                I don’t know how to access the older versions – it appears they are not available anymore.

                They used to have a number of different polls that you could look at and compare the gender differences. I recall Labour were losing male support and National was gaining it. (I’m not saying all were going to National, but lots were)

          • Colonial Viper

            It would be good to see the men, who were supporting Labour and now moving to National in response to the massive propaganda we have been subjected to, learning to find ways to overcome their vulnerability to spin, is my conclusion. They need to realise they are being manipulated.

            No problem with Labour here, so lets do some victim blaming instead: men need to do better.

            • blue leopard

              From my comment @ 2.56pm above:

              I suggest perhaps what needs to happen is for a more assertive and focussed strategy to counter the propaganda techniques that are rife – rather than buying into the propaganda and being appeasing and accommodating toward it.

              I would like to see all people in New Zealand keeping themselves informed from decent sources too, though, so they were not so very vulnerable to the misinformation that is rife. I guess that is pretty idealistic, though.

            • weka

              “No problem with Labour here, so lets do some victim blaming instead: men need to do better.”

              Or, we could all just stop whining about our needs and let white men run the place again. See how stupid this conversation is getting? Why don’t you just say exactly what you want CV and save us a whole lot of bother.

              • Colonial Viper

                See how stupid this conversation is getting? Why don’t you just say exactly what you want CV and save us a whole lot of bother.

                Hey weka, the answer to the massive gender imbalance in Labour’s support clearly is: “men need to do better.” From your comments it’s not quite clear whether you mean just me personally or Kiwi males in general, but I think you probably mean both. How can I disagree.

                • weka

                  What? Where have I said men need to do better? If the gender voter imbalance is a problem, isn’t it Labour that need to do better?

    • Gosman 10.2

      Where I the evidence that 38% of woman claim to have been sexually abused?

      • Rosie 10.2.1

        I can’t believe you are still on about this “evidence” Gosman when you’ve been told time and time again that reporting sexual abuse isn’t as straightforward as reporting other crimes, such as burglary, hence there isn’t a definitive statistic.

        Commenters, including myself have spent far too long trying to explain this you and the difficulty around reporting.

        Your inability to take on this information, to be respectful, to keep banging your “evidence” drum is hugely offensive to those of use that have been raped and abused.

        • anker

          Rosie, my husband is now out delivering pamhplets in Ohiaru, thanks to you passing on information about it to me on TS.

          • Acting up

            Excellent!! I’m out there too in a few minutes, doing the same … in the rain…. Oh well, firm up – there’s an election to be won, and a Dunne to send off to retirement!

            • Rosie

              Awesome Acting up! What commitment! It’s not nice out there today and a hot cuppa will be in order on your return. May your hard work and determination be rewarded with the sweetest election result ever 🙂

              I’m dragging the chain a bit as I’ve spent 10 months off my feet recovering from an achillies tendon injury. Last month I was ‘discharged’ from the pain clinic I had been attending and was rearing to go. When I got my leaflets I went hard out around our neighbourhood and have stuffed up the injury again!

          • Rosie

            Thats great news anker! I did hear we had a new volunteer on board which is always such welcome news. I have lost count but I think there is around 25 “pamphleteers” now. We are getting good feedback from leaflet receivers too, some of which who were once long time Dunne supporters, but no more.

            A handful of people have been upset by the content of the leaflet but this is vastly outweighed by the number of people whose response has been positive and who are planning to vote Dunne out.

            2 of our billboards have been stolen which has been disappointing as so much work goes into creating them and by stealing them they are denying our right to political expression.

            Hopefully the thief will get their come comeuppance on 20th September!

            • anker

              I also spoke to someone who is a little “apolitical” and lives in the electorate and they were happy to be better informed and have agreed to vote for Virginia.

              Husband mention a running poll run by the Dom Post which had Ginny at 52% and Done (the new spelling of his name) at 20 something.

              This cheered me up after the awful stuff poll!

        • Gosman

          If there is no evidence for it then stop using statistics that have no basis for political purposes then. I make no apologies for bringing this up every time someone attempts to do so.

          • Rosie

            The “evidence” has been supplied to you before from other commenters. Time and time again. It seems to me your issue is that you find it hard to believe that men abuse in such high numbers and that you’d rather deny there is a very serious problem.

            To continue questioning, and turn rape into a numbers game is deeply insensitive. If you had any empathy or any knowledge of the problem you would know that a cold hard stat makes no difference to the victims. We KNOW how widespread the problem is.

          • Tracey


      • tricledrown 10.2.2

        Gosman Jenny Shipley released those stats around the time when National toughened up child abuse laws when she was the minister of health.
        As a foster parent and during my time doing Social Work I have ready widely on psychology,Most Research in Psychology is from Statistics mainly gathered from censuses and large surveys shows this is not just a problem in NZ.
        When you see that nearly 40% of women have at some stage in their life have had a Man sexually abuse them it changes my view on what it means to be a man !

        • Gosman

          Link to these statistics please.

          Btw I have researched these claims before and the statistics are dubious at best and none I have seen are anywhere near the 38% that is being bandied around here.

          • anker

            I also spoke to someone who is a little “apolitical” and lives in the electorate and they were happy to be better informed and have agreed to vote for Virginia.

            Husband mention a running poll run by the Dom Post which had Ginny at 52% and Done (the new spelling of his name) at 20 something.

            This cheered me up after the awful stuff poll!

          • tricledrown

            You can’t have done much research nearly all the Psychology books I have read have stated between 20 to30% for males and female around 35% plus with the likelihood of more because of the shame associated!
            The United Nations Human Rights site claims some countries sexual abuse rates for women are as high as 46% and that figure could be higher because of underreporting!
            Gosman 90% of sexual abuse is committed by men stats also show!
            sorry I can’t do links on my not so smartphone!

          • McFlock

            So you know there is a problem, but merely quibble over the extent.
            As if arguing the exact percentage is a reason to avoid confronting a problem in our society.

  11. Draco T Bastard 11

    We Are All Aboard the Pequod

    We, like Ahab and his crew, rationalize madness. All calls for prudence, for halting the march toward environmental catastrophe, for sane limits on carbon emissions, are ignored or ridiculed. Even with the flashing red lights before us, the increased droughts, rapid melting of glaciers and Arctic ice, monster tornadoes, vast hurricanes, crop failures, floods, raging wildfires and soaring temperatures, we bow slavishly before hedonism and greed and the enticing illusion of limitless power, intelligence and prowess. We believe in the eternal wellspring of material progress. We are our own idols. Nothing will halt our voyage; it seems to us to have been decreed by natural law. “The path to my fixed purpose is laid with iron rails, whereon my soul is grooved to run,” Ahab declares. We have surrendered our lives to corporate forces that ultimately serve systems of death. Microbes will inherit the earth.

    Sounds about right.

    • vto 11.1

      Within the lifetimes of our children our world will be barren of wildlife, which will be locked into gated parks. The wilds will be gone. The myriad of species will be gone. The seas will be empty. We will be living alone on a planet of farmland and nothing more.

      you heard it here first ….

  12. anker 12


    Anyone else appalled and sickened by this??? What are we doing to our young women (and men)………………..

    Gosh I hadn’t even read the thread above when I posted this.

    Do you dispute the statistics on women and sexual abuse Gosman??????

    • moral-panic on offer..?


      ..we currently have a corruption-panic going on..

      ..too busy..!

    • crocodill 12.2

      “She said the school is still trying to work out exactly what did happen.”

      TVNZ: “Adults encouraged girl to strip. We have proof.”
      School: “They wha… who the… when… I don’t even..?!”

      LOL Your tax dollars at work.

      • yeshe 12.2.1

        private school st cuthberts .. fyi

        • phillip ure

          still yr ‘tax dollars at work’..

          ..but hard to ‘blame’ the school..really..

          ..(moral-panic: sub-thread..)

          • anker

            What! PU @

            They employed the supervisors! They have some culpability.

            This is not about morality, this is about the sexualisation of our children.

            • phillip ure

              no it’s not..

              ..it’s about a rebellious teenager acting out/seeking attention…..

              ..so what else is new..?

              • The Al1en

                It’s about the encouraged, ritualised, supervised sexualisation of children, so yes, it really is about the school.

                First person I’ve seen call this incident ‘rebellious acting out by an attention seeking teen’, completely ignoring the facts behind the story.
                Blame the victim much?

                • get a grip..!..much..?

                  • The Al1en

                    I’ve seen how you’ve ‘hunted’ and taunted female commentators on ts, demanding they answer your questions etc… etc… Using misogynist language, insults and intimidatory methods, So I’m not shocked by your nonchalant dismissal over the school’s blatant sexualisation of it’s pupils, but still surprised you’d be so ‘open’ about it.

                    I guess with little checks, sometimes you get very little balance in return.

    • disturbed 12.3

      Gosman is the shameless face of NatZ. like his ilk.

  13. Dont worry. Be happy 13

    BM I can never take seriously. Anyone with medical background can tell you what a BM is.

  14. “..A new study of over 600 couples shows more frequent marijuana use –

    – means less frequent violence.

    The use of alcohol significantly increases one’s likelihood of becoming either a perpetrator or a victim of a violent act –

    – including acts of intimate partner violence.

    As for cannabis use – that’s a different story..”


    • tricledrown 14.1

      More pot propaganda not all your information is true from what I have encountered its the next day after the dope has gone the shit hits the fan grumpiness sets in and then violent abusive behaviour towards partners and children the children run way from home!
      the children’s undeveloped brains are effected by the dope that the parents leave lying around after a session.Which the children being inquisitive steal and smoke!
      Get real Phillip no drug is as good as you are trying to picture!
      The number of homeless street kids I have worked with over the years and the stories they have told makes your excuses and Denials a joke !

      • phillip ure 14.1.1

        mmm..!..what to believe..?

        tricles’ hysterical anti-pot anecdotes..?

        ..or a scientific-study..backed up by other scientific-studies..?

        ..i think i’ll go with ‘b’…

  15. Halcyon 15

    I note that Labour have now advised there will be a “period of grace” during which to sell the family home of of a deceased estate. But this period needs to take into consideration the varying times it takes to sell properties in different parts of NZ. While a house in Auckland could sell in a matter of weeks, ones in rural towns like Tokoroa may take a year or more. A fair method would be for the Labour lead government to offer to buy those houses, at current market value, for those who are having difficulty in selling them within the timeframe.

    • crocodill 15.1

      It would be an option, to sell a policy, but not in any way “fair”. Fair suggests some sort of moral consideration/justification. People know damn well what they’re doing. There is no excuse of they didn’t know, didn’t see it coming, weren’t warned etc etc. It gets into “the art of talking about ethics only in an attempt to justify the unethical”.

      • Halcyon 15.1.1

        I gather from your comment that you object to my comment of a “fair method”. I fail to see how focusing on unfair practice that disadvantages one sector of the population is “talking about ethics only in an attempt to justify the unethical”.

        • crocodill

          urf. Should I bother?

          “unfair practice that disadvantages one sector of the population ”

          “government to offer to buy those houses”

          Talking about ethics purely to justify the unethical.

          • Halcyon

            It would be unethical to disadvantage home owners in rural towns by insisting on a short timeframe in which to sell the house when even homes that are under mortgage foreclosure sales are not selling. Often fairness needs to consider individual situations and not try and make one size to fit all. Otherwise the outcome is unfair.

            • Te Reo Putake

              Labour aren’t insisting on a short time frame. Rather, the rules around CGT are open for discussion post election and the policy is to set up a working group to decide what works best. And that will not be ‘one size fits all’. As with your question yesterday, I detect a bucolic whiff of straw in your contribution, halcyon.

              • careful..!..you’ll be getting dizzy there..!..trp..!

                ..the fact of the matter is that saying the offspring of deceased parents had a one month window of opportunity to sell their parents home..before incurring c.g.t..

                ..must make the shortlist for brain-fade-of-the-election-campaign award..?

                .you’d think..?

              • Halcyon

                Don’t be to quick to defend Te Reo. Apart from three occasions in the last 60 years I have voted Labour. ( That makes 17 votes for Labour). My concerns are genuine. I just don’t vote for a party because I am a member. I need to be assured that the Party I vote for has the best policies.

    • karol 15.2

      I understood the period of grace, which was always in the policy, is two years.

      • Halcyon 15.2.1

        Even two years may not suffice. Because of redundancy we located to another town to obtain work. We put the family home on the market for less than government valuation. Three years later it did not sell.

        A better way forward would be going back to the old Labour policy of a Joint Family Home. When one purchased a family home it was registered as such. One could only own one JFH. Any other houses bought were considered investment.

      • The Lone Haranguer 15.2.2

        karol 15.2
        5 September 2014 at 8:55 am

        I understood the period of grace, which was always in the policy, is two years.

        Clearly those Labour politicians who spoke on this topic in recent days did not understand this, or they havent read their own policy.

        That messup aside, the inheritors only get charged on the capital gain from a month after the death and theres pretty much no chance of capital gains when a house hasnt sold in three years despite being advertised at under the ratable value.

      • alwyn 15.2.3

        You might understand that Karol but Cunliffe doesn’t if he can come out with a claim like a month.
        Given he dreams of being PM, and says that he developed the policy I think we might be wiser to believe he means what he says rather than take your rather rosier view.
        Unless of course you were something like the leader of the Green Party who seem to be rapidly catching up on the position of being the largest party in the opposition.

    • aj 15.3

      But ownership of the home will legally still be with the deceased until the time it is sold? at which time funds from the sale go to the executor of the trust, and won’t be dispersed to the benificiaries of the will until the will is executed.
      So I suspect this is a non-issue.

    • Tracey 15.4

      Its called probate. No childcan sell a parents home until probate is granted which usually takes weeks or months. Cunliffe looks foolish

  16. Penny Bright 16


    WHEN: Today Friday 5 September 2014

    TIME: 1.30pm – 2.15pm

    WHERE: Outside Auckland High Court
    Waterloo Quadrant

    The public have a right to transparency and accountability regarding those in public office – especially Ministers of the Crown who are Ministers of the Crown 24/7 – full time – ALL THE TIME!

    Hacked correspondence which involves any Ministers of the Crown particularly concerning their covert political activities is NOT covered by privacy legislation, in my considered opinion.

    Especially now, before this 2014 election, the voting public must have full media exposure of these corrupt conflicts of interests and politically cancerous ‘Wall Street ways’ which have corrupted our democracy and DECENT New Zealand.

    If you can make it – please come today to defend democracy and fight corruption!

    Protest called by Penny Bright

  17. Glenn 17

    I wish KDC would have just shut up and left politics to Hone and Laila. No other party has their principal backer on stage , they usually prefer anonymity.
    Laila and Hone are professionals and the public face of IMP should be left to them.

    • Halcyon 17.1

      KDC needs to have a high profile to demonstrate what a great guy he is. It is an attempt to prevent his extradition to the States. I am glad David Cunliffe has make it clear that Labour will not interfere in the judicial process. However, do you think David has the strength to stand up to the other parties in government how support KDC? David’s decision on this matter could see the fall of Labour.

      • tricledrown 17.1.1

        National will have to rely on the Maori Party with Tama Iti!

        • alwyn

          Are you seriously suggesting that you expect the Maori Party to get 6% or more of the party vote?
          That is, of course, the only way that Tame Iti is going to get into Parliament. He is, after all number 7 on their list and isn’t standing in an electorate.

        • Blue

          “Speaking in the home he built himself in Ruatoki, Iti said he had always supported the Maori Party and had decided to stand to boost the party’s support and because he endorsed the work it had done in government.

          “Not very long ago I wouldn’t have thought about it but I see there’s more achievement…with National in terms of the treaty settlements so we have come a long way,” he said.

          Not a problem it seems.

        • Halcyon

          That makes National more attractive. I would rather have Tama in parliament than a political party associated with Dotcom. At least Tama is focused on Maori issues and not trying to protect his own skin.

    • tricledrown 17.2

      +1 he’s at it again taking a dig at Cameron Slater Kim Dismal Critic!
      Slater will drown in his own Toxic pit!
      Dump Dot Comical is bringing the whole Left down!
      Money won’t buy you the love of the people of NZ!
      Ffs when you have only 2to3% of the people liking your Party and Policy you don’t keep making revenge attacks hows that worked !
      Key goes up in popularity everytime Kim dumb as opens his mouth !
      When Dot Com has his big day it will be a disaster Key will shrug his shoulders say its a left wing conspiracy and move on!

    • Colonial Viper 17.3

      Laila and Hone are professionals and the public face of IMP should be left to them.

      I agree that his exposure should be significantly cut down, but I don’t think it can be completely eliminated because he does have cachet and profile with a certain young crowd.

  18. joe90 18

    WD2 is up and about.

  19. Karen 19

    The Fairfax poll has 13% undecided while the Morgan poll has only 3%. Swordfish explained the consistently lower undecided response in the Morgan poll as being because they a pushier in getting a preference from people who are undecided. Of course that 13% may not vote, but I am hoping the low undecided percentage makes the Morgan more reliable.

    I think John Key got a boost with some voters by sacking Collins. Unfortunately people who haven’t read Hager’s book think the only problem was Judith Collins, and the unfortunately the MSM are doing a very poor job of exposing the evidence of the serious level of corruption that has grown under this government. Even with Judith Collins the print edition of the Herald made much of her claims the facebook entries were fake, but did not follow up with the David Fisher article online yesterday that provided verification of her correspondence with Slater.

  20. Clemgeopin 20

    Archbishop John Dew : Outrage over dirty tricks healthy


  21. Not a PS Staffer 21

    Judith Collins is down. The only person who can get her OUT OF PARLIAMENT is Jerome Mika. Give him a hand, at 185 Great South Road Papakura, if you are nearby. Donate to his campaign fund if you can. Papakura Labour bank is 020400 0231246 00.


  22. left for dead 22

    lprent or in fact anyone out there.When will they stop polling,before the election.ta

    sorry for the bad gramma,i’m dyslectic.It takes me forever to compile a comment sometimes.

  23. Kiwiri 23

    Sean Plunket’s interview of Kim Dotcom convinced me to step out during lunchtime to vote against the John Key’s mouthpiece on RadioLive today:


  24. “..If you really care about climate change – you’ll stop eating burgers..

    ..If we don’t alter the way we eat and farm –

    – the food industry will cause an environmental disaster..”



  25. Weepus beard 25


    There are 50,000 members of the NZEI, 93% of whom oppose government policy on the “expert teachers” plan, and John Key uses an announcement for funding of special needs kids to attack them.

    John Key is a c**t of a man.

    • ianmac 25.1

      The strange thing is that Special Needs Education has been seriously underfunded for 6 long years. It has been cut. So why just before an election would they have a change of heart? I wonder why!
      And has anyone questioned Key on the detail? Bet not.

  26. karol 26

    Seeing tweet that NBR’s Chris Keall reckons that Slater lost with eforts to gaga media.

    • Colonial Viper 26.1

      Yep. Thank goodness our courts and our jurists still have some integrity.

    • ianmac 26.2


      Herald: “Whale Oil blogger Cameron Slater. Photo / Doug Sherring Whale Oil blogger Cameron Slater. Photo / Doug Sherring

      The High Court has temporarily gagged the hacker who has years of Whale Oil blogger Cameron Slater’s explosive communications with high-profile figures.

      The blogger – who was not at the High Court in Auckland today – was successful in placing an interim injunction against the hacker known as Rawshark from any further publication of his emails and social-media conversations.

      However, Justice John Fogarty said the media were still allowed to discuss material already leaked and publish information already in their hands.”

      Cunning of the Rawshark to have already given remaining emails to journalists. They can still use them.

  27. dunne..

    “..we never set out to be spectacular..’

    in response to why hasn’t he grown his party vote..?


  28. Weepus beard 28

    Is John Key appropriating the NZRU to do his political campaign bidding?

    Heard on the wireless the Samoa Rugby Union has a press conference tomorrow and the rumour is that for for the first time ever the All Black will play a test in Apia in July next year.

    Question is again: Has John Key used the NZRU as a vehicle to gain the Samoan vote for this election?

    • nadis 28.1

      Old news – this was announced about 3 months ago. Firm date was the only info left to announce.

  29. ScottGN 29

    The Guardian is speculating that a poll this weekend will show a lead for the Yes vote in Scotland. They’re reporting that Labour is scrambling to dampen enthusiasm amongst their supporters for independence in the wake of a lacklustre performance by Miliband and other senior Labour leaders on the issue.

    • karol 29.1


    • aj 29.2

      Should the Yes vote win, I shall do my bit and start drinking Scotch Whiskey to support their economy.

    • millsy 29.3

      I kinda hope Scotland stays….

      Slashing corporate and top personal tax rates (which Salmond plans to do), doesnt exactly sound like a socialist state — I think we may get Poland, not Norway..

      • Karen 29.3.1

        Those hoping for independence for Scotland need to think carefully. The Scottish National Party and Ales Salmond have always right wing, and the North Sea oil that they are depending on for income is unlikely to last for much longer. Scotland already has independence in health and education.
        If independence were to happen then Scotland would likely get a Labour leadership, but unfortunately the rest of the UK would be Tory for ever more, as a large number of labour MPs in the House of Commons currently are from Scotland.

        • Rich

          In which case I think you’d find that the remainder of the UK would adjust.

          Plus maybe the votes are gerrymandered?

  30. Clemgeopin 30

    CAPITAL GAINS TAX (and other taxes) DEBATE TONIGHT ON PRIME AT 9:40 pm


    [ email]
    plus Jo Doolan (Ernst and Young)
    Geoff Simmons (Morgan Foundation)
    Tax — can we afford cuts and how would a capital gains tax work?
    Tax is now at the top of the political campaign agenda.
    On Tuesday night David Cunliffe didn’t know the details of his party’s Capital Gains Tax which has been party policy since the last election.
    Meanwhile Bill English is said to be considering announcing tax cuts next week even though the Government’s Pre Election Fiscal Update last month offered only one scenario in which total tax revenue would increase over the next four years and that was dependent on a strengthening of the US economy.
    But Labour is also being criticised for its plans to increase taxation to 36$ on incomes over $150,000 even though that is a 3% drop on its 2011 policy.
    Tax is the big issues for the two Economic Spokespeople — but there are also real questions about what’s going to happen in the economy over the next three years.
    This week global dairy trade auction prices fell by 6% to their lowest level since 2012. Fonterra has dropped its payout forecast for the current season from $7kg to $6kg for milk solids.
    All of this comes with growing concerns that China’s economy is starting to slow again. The Wall Street Journal reported yesterday that China’s economy faced further headwinds after two measures of factory output decelerated in August, adding pressure on Beijing to stimulate growth to meet the nation’s annual target.The results disclosed on Monday follow weaker investment, real estate and retail data in recent weeks. How valid then are Treasury forecasts showing unemployment falling over the enxt foru years.
    Plainly this could have implications for Treasury forecasts of falling unemployment over the enxt foru years.
    With Mr English and Mr Parker will be Ernst and Young Tax Partner and leader of the company’ s China Business Group, JO DOOLAN and Morgan Foundation economist, GEOFF SIMMONS.THIS IS A UNIQUE CHANCE TO HEAR FROM THE MAIN PLAYERS AND REAl EXPERTS ON THE BIGGEST ISSUES FOR THIS CAMPAIGN.

  31. emergency mike 31

    Nice article from puddleglum disecting a Sunday Star Times article from 2009 on one Cameron Slater.

    Back then he was quite happy for this to be written about him:

    “Similarly, the site has grown into an instrument of attack on the party’s opponents. Pooling resources with friend and fellow insider David Farrar, who conducts National’s polling and runs the much larger Kiwiblog, Slater has identified the “cocktail party spy”, Kees Keizer, and dug up research papers intended to embarrass Labour’s new Mt Albert MP.”


    “When it came to pursuing political targets, the party apparatus would not officially feed him tips, or otherwise instruct him to do its bidding. “But somebody might ring me up [of their own volition] and say `check this out’.””

    Ah, they were simplier times. When Slater was happy to be portrayed as a National party insider receiving tips from them to use on his website which is an instrument of attacks on the Labour party. Along with National party insider and National party employee David Farrar.

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  • Government to provide support for water reforms, jobs and growth
    The Government today announced a $2.5 billion package to support local government transition through the reforms to New Zealand’s drinking water, wastewater and stormwater services. The package will also stimulate local economies while creating jobs and unlocking infrastructure for housing. “New Zealand’s water systems are facing a significant crisis and ...
    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    2 weeks ago