Open mike 05/10/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 5th, 2012 - 67 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

67 comments on “Open mike 05/10/2012 ”

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  1. Jenny 1
    5 October 2012 at 6:23 am

    Will Dotcom get a fair hearing?

    Will evidence of police perjury be investigated?

    Will the admitted illegal actions of the GCSB lead to charges being laid?

    Will NZ get a seat on the the Security Council?

    Mission impossible?

    Murray McCully is supposed to be in New York lobbying for New Zealand to be awarded one of the non-permanent seats on the Security Council.

    But even before he got off the plane his mission had been sabotaged on the home front.

    While he was in transit, in the operation to extradite Kim Dotcom to the U.S. headlines around the world were recounting revelations of NZ secret service malfeasance, as well as cover up and lying, at the highest levels of the NZ state

    Unless something changes, McCully has no show of convincing the UN General Assembly of our independent bona fides.

    I would have thought that illegal snooping on someone was a serious matter?

    I would have thought perjury was a serious matter?

    But not, it seems, if these illegal actions are done on behalf of the United States.

    If we have no respect for our own national laws and norms on behalf of the American super power, how could we be trusted to respect international laws and norms if they were in conflict with US interests?

    Has McCully given up on his Quixotic mission?

    In his only opportunity to address the general assembly, instead of putting New Zealand’s case case for one of the non permanent seats on the Security Council, McCully spent most of his speech on Syria and criticising the Security Council’s veto power.

    Way to go Murray!

    Why was New Zealand’s mission to secure one of the non-permanent seats dropped off your agenda?

    Mr McCully said later on Q+A today that he received some sporadic applause for his comments and sensed a real sense of frustration among the General Assembly.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Murray-McCully-criticises-Security-Council-at-United-Nations/tabid/1607/articleID/270987/Default.aspx

    .If New Zealand really wanted a seat on the Security Council we must announce to the world that our sovereignity is invioble, that Dotcom will get a fair hearing, that evidence of perjury in this matter will be investigated, that acts of illegality by secret agencies will be punished. That when it comes to justice the US will have to stand in the queue like everyone else.

  2. toad 2
    5 October 2012 at 8:07 am

    Information held by the Herald shows Gen-I studied data showing the amount of time it took information on the internet connection to reach the Xbox server. It went from 30 milliseconds to 180 milliseconds – a huge increase for online gamers.

    The reason for the extra time emerged in a deeper inquiry, which saw a “Trace Route” search which tracks internet signals from their origin to their destinations. When the results were compared it showed the internet signal was being diverted inside New Zealand.

    The data showed the internet signal had previously taken two steps before going offshore – but was now taking five.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10838484

    Any thoughts from the techie types out there as to whether there are any reasons this could happen other than the signal was being illegally diverted to monitor it?

    And if the GCSB are telling the truth that the illegal surveillance of Dotcom didn’t start until 16 December 2011, then who else would have been doing it earlier? The NSA running an op in New Zealand? Now, that would be really interesting.

    • mickysavage 2.1
      5 October 2012 at 9:03 am

      I’m not a techie but it looks significant and it looks like an intelligence gathering organisation jumped the gun.

      And you have to admire Dotcom’s media savvy.

      He has obviously had this information for nearly a year but chose now, when it will do most damage, to release it.

      Stand by for a couple of blockbusters, a dinner with Key and a large donation to the National Party …
       

    • Kotahi Tāne Huna 2.2
      5 October 2012 at 9:13 am

      Another question for techie types: would Gen-I know the IP addresses of the extra three “steps”?

      • Lanthanide 2.2.1
        5 October 2012 at 10:02 am

        They should, yes. The IP addresses will have to be globally routable. The IP addresses may just point to the very edge of the ‘shell’ of the network, but it’s still showing you something, even if only a very little. Although the fact that there were 3 additional hops will also show you the intermediary providers they use to funnel the data their way.

    • ianmac 2.3
      5 October 2012 at 9:23 am

      Crikey Toad. That could be very big!

    • billbrowne 2.4
      5 October 2012 at 9:31 am

      You don’t divert an IP stream to monitor it, you make a copy and monitor that.

      • Lanthanide 2.4.1
        5 October 2012 at 10:05 am

        You’d have to mirror outgoing and incoming connections. Not especially hard, but more effort than just diverting the stream entirely. It’s also much more obvious that surveillance is going on – the only reason traffic could be mirrored is for monitoring purposes. Traffic being routed inefficiently could be just that – a routing error.

        I find it amusing that this investigation started because Kim Dotcom is such a nerd and a rich one. Any other average person wouldn’t have any clue this was happening (or the resources/clout to get an investigation done by Gen I).

        • billbrowne 2.4.1.1
          5 October 2012 at 12:20 pm

          No, port mirroring is the way it’s done.

          • Lanthanide 2.4.1.1.1
            5 October 2012 at 12:38 pm

            So then you’d be getting all sorts of other traffic as well.

          • toad 2.4.1.1.2
            5 October 2012 at 9:21 pm

            I am far from an IT expert, but am informed by Anita from Kiwipolitico (who knows a lot more about this than me), on this occasion over at the Dim-Post, that re-routing is necessary if you want to decrypt encrypted messages.

            Given that Kim Dotcom is very likely to have been encrypting much of his messaging, then diversion rather than mirroring may well have been the GCSB’s (or NSA’s) best method of obtaining the most useful intelligence.

            Especially given that mirroring gives you all sorts of extraneous shit you are not really interested in.

        • mickysavage 2.4.1.2
          5 October 2012 at 12:48 pm

          There is more information at http://torrentfreak.com/kim-dotcoms-gaming-lag-hints-spying-121004/
          including an interview with the big man himself.

          Whatever the reason whether it be incompetence or a security agency diverting traffic so it can have a snoop the justification for a full inquiry just got bigger.

          And I was surprised to hear how big the GCSB is.  It apparently has over 300 employees.   

          • deuto 2.4.1.2.1
            5 October 2012 at 1:10 pm

            Thanks for that link, ms. Really interesting read which has been updated in the last few hours. I followed an earlier link via KDC twitter and KDC’s comments were not reported then.

            KDC is now saying the problems started in Oct, and Telecom was asked to check, but then went silent. He also says the GCSB had also installed four cameras on the property, and this will come out in Court. It all gets murkier and murkier.

          • Tiger Mountain 2.4.1.2.2
            5 October 2012 at 3:07 pm

            Holy crap, 300, that is potentially a lot of leather arm chairs and snifters of single malt! Maybe two or three of ’em just monitor The Standard and other blogs sorting out who is who all day.

            The speculation whether there were donations to National as well as ACT is most interesting.

            The inspector general is obviously some kind of patsy retirement post given the meagre funds allocated to the ‘watchdog’ compared to overall GCSB funding.

    • Red Rosa 2.5
      5 October 2012 at 9:56 am

      The answers here could turn out to be political dynamite.

      No wonder Dotcom keeps smiling.

      He has the tech savvy to guess what happened, and confidence that the NZ legal system will eventually reveal the details. Let’s hope he’s right.

      This could go right to the top- Key after all is in direct charge of the spy network. And (!) including maybe the current GG, who ran the GCSB for some months. Key has assumed he has had ‘plausible deniability’ all down the line. That is looking thin now, as the underlings start to talk.

      And let’s hear it from the Minister of Police, the esteemed Ann Tolley, on the apparent perjury. Fresh from the high-heeled stomp on the boy racer’s wagon…

      • toad 2.5.1
        5 October 2012 at 10:18 am

        Tolley won’t involve herself – on the basis that perjury by senior Police officers is an “operational matter”.

    • BloodyOrphan 2.6
      5 October 2012 at 1:12 pm

      It could be a couple of reasons, what they really need to do is an internic/whois lookup on th IP numbers from that tracert.

      Those routes and how they got there are very hard to track because of the 0.0.0.0 default gateway and device routed packets.

      In the modern day the NZ internet uses what’s called numberless IP or port routing, those routes are managed using RIP or a similiar routing management protocol.

      Once they know who “owned” those IP numbers they’ll have an idea of location. You would have to ask the Telco who owned it though, which means you’d be better to do it officialy, I’m sure they’d want to help, but policy may prevent them.

      There is no reason on earth to route a packet to Wellington and back again.

      I’d suspect packet snooping was the goal, and they must’ve broken into a Telco switch or have backbone RIP access to pull it off.

      I don’t think the Americans’ would’ve helped them hack a NZ site without good reason, but if they said it was for Dotcom then maybe, which raises a whole raft of questions about protocol and checks and balances.

      • mickysavage 2.6.1
        5 October 2012 at 6:06 pm

        Key has issued a blanket denial.

        There appear to be three possibilities:

        1.  An overseas intelligence organisation has rerouted Dotcom’s feed so that it can be analysed.  Not likely since the loop happened between Dotcom’s house and the Sky Tower.

        2.  A NZ intelligence organisation has rerouted Dotcom’s feed so that it can be analysed.  Quite likely given the current performance of the various Government Departments.  They seem to not understand that the law is something they should adhere to.

        3.  It is a monumental stuff up by Telecom and its technicians and Dotcom is elegantly playing us all like chumps.  This cannot be ruled out given Telecom’s general performance and Dotcom’s uncanny ability to affect public discourse of the issue.

        For a slightly more geeky pointy headed discussion of the issue try Dimpost’s blog at  http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2012/10/05/a-question-for-the-level-3-boys/

        Apologies for no embedded links.  I am on holiday and on an Ipad … 

    • BloodyOrphan 2.7
      5 October 2012 at 1:41 pm

      Considering the GCSB is there too protect us from Cyber Terrorism, they are actually the people you people should be asking.

      They are meant too be protecting us, not spying on us.

      They sent a message to me and others on this board, the message was a scary one.
      Nothing too do with them, someone else was trying out those stack smashers they left behind last night.

      We have nothing too hide, so not a big deal, but why would he smash his own board?

      …… Coz he’s a wannabe hacker.

      Anonymous are a bunch of incompetents who never read a single line of kernel code it their lives, they steal the ability from people who have, and we hate them for it.

      So JH watch out, they know you now ……..

  3. Rosie 3
    5 October 2012 at 9:30 am

    This one’s for Muzza and for David H. A few days ago we had a chat about the psychology of commenters on stuff.co.nz, comapring them to talkback callers. You made the point Muzza that these folks don’t necessarily represent the mindset of the rest of NZ but are influential in their own way.
    After a bout of despair I vowed not to get involved in these discussions again but…….there is an article in yesterdays Dom Post by Vernon Small questioning whether voters are turning away from Key. Check out the feedback. It’s refreshing. Add your voice if you want, the discussion is continuing today. We keep looking to opposition politicans for leadership and hope but we can’t forget that WE as a population are the ones that should be driving democracy. (In a very general sense, and via action not just by posting comments on an msm news site lol)

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/comment/columnists/vernon-small/7766785/Vernon-Small-Are-voters-turning-against-John-Key

    • Lanthanide 3.1
      5 October 2012 at 10:09 am

      I’ve seen a lot of very negative comments about Key and National leading up to the last election, too. I guess turnout was just depressed enough thanks to the MSM narrative of National having a home-run that we ended up with the result we did.

    • LynW 3.2
      5 October 2012 at 10:21 am

      Thanks for that link Rosie. I understand the despair too … have felt it acutely since NACT got in and more so since their return but I have to believe good over comes bad, compassion and integrity wins over greed and self-interest. It is certainly unravelling before our very eyes and with such volume that even the least politically aware must be noticing. Rose tinted glasses perhaps but it helps keep me going!

    • muzza 3.3
      5 October 2012 at 11:56 am

      Hi Rosie, hope you’re well.

      I’ll check out the link later, thanks for posting..

      The thing with the MSM is that they generally do not care who the government is, they simply make up the news, and drive the narrative which suits their corporate owners agenda.

      News media generally meant to straddle the middle line, as they exist regardless of who is in government or who is in opposition, they get to “make the news”

      So far as people joining online conversations and the like – My feelings are that online anything comes with the elevated risk of false economy, which is when people use online communities and believe they they are making a difference, or that its influential, this to me is false, because my feeling is that it is not!

      Online, especially in the MSM is heavily controlled, monitored and moderated, and as such is is not hard to see where it can be used to take the energy away from people, by allowing them to feel a sense of emotion either positive or negative about , in this instance our political situation.

      Only when people take to the streets, and become very enagaged in political process, not just voting, but demanding accountability through continued engagement, will NZ stand any chance of turning around the course we are on!

      Have a good day Rosie, Cheers

      • Rosie 3.3.1
        5 October 2012 at 12:55 pm

        Thanks Lanthanide and LynW:)

        Hey Muzza. I fully agree with your thoughts on the msm, and am under no illusion of it’s agenda. Its’ content is often quite vapid and becoming more inane with an increasing focus on “entertainment” (mind numbing celebrity entertainment). In regard to the Vernon Small article, I was just very pleased to see some anti national/shonkey talk going on. And yes, these msm online comments sections are very moderated. Only about 50% or less of my posts ever make it to the page (on fairfax).

        I also firmly believe in action but man, where is it? Yes, theres been some solid protest around asset sales, but over the last decade, and the last 4 years in particular, it feels like we have become the “OK” meme. Just accepting.
        http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lvx6evUA2F1qf04yf.jpg
        Maybe just too tired, too indifferent, too preoccupied and disillusioned? I was just a kid during the time of the Springboks tour and the Nuclear Free movement but later came to appreciate and admire the actions and efforts (sometimes at great personal risk) that went into promoting and standing up for social and environmental justice. I was inspired by these people and I guess that gave me the encouragment to ‘get involved’ in taking action alongside others as other issues arose. (So thank you to anyone here who was involved in those protests) Governments come and go and we are faced with evolving threats and issues regularly but it feels like we’ve lost our fire. And our unity.

        • muzza 3.3.1.1
          5 October 2012 at 1:23 pm

          we are faced with evolving threats and issues regularly but it feels like we’ve lost our fire. And our unity

          Rosie, student loans have a big part to play, so does immigration/emmigration, into the mix.

          I recall when I was growing up, that locally when there were protests, it was the students who seemed to be leading the charge so to speak, and taking stands against the issues of the time. so how to quell what was a large chunk of protestors? Get them under control via debt, its certainly worked well to crush what was left of the student protests for the past 10-15 years.
          We see some coming about again of late, but nothing which is going to make change.

          Immigration/emmigration is self explanatory IMO, and of course there are the pro’s and con’s on both sides. Needless to say that if you want to remove unity from any country, then just ensure that you keep the doors revolving as quickly as possible. That alongside keeping those who stay, at eachother using the worst kinds of race/class warfare you could find in the “developed” world!

          You are right though, the fire has been extinguished, and people appear to me to be very “thick” these days, walking around like mindless zombies, talking about “stuff” which is simply that, just stuff. I look at the younger generations in my family, and realise that they do not even realise just how dumbed down life has made them, the digital kids are trapped.

          If people want to argue the attack on peoples mind, they need look no further than the charter schools fiasco, as the lastest attack on furture generations of Kiwi young.

          Its going to take something very big before that unity you refer might kick in again, but it will happen Rosie, the question for me is, will it be too late.

          • Rosie 3.3.1.1.1
            5 October 2012 at 2:30 pm

            Points noted re student debt and revolving door population and its effect on our ‘voicelessness”.

            “people appear to me to be very ‘thick’ these days”

            Try living in the Ohariu electorate Muzza! I do understand what you say however. I also wonder how it is for young people who have been born in the time of neoliberalism (getting sick of that word). Very generally speaking they haven’t been raised in a way, or exposed to a system that honours collectivity, and the idea of collective effort equalling collective gain. Many in my generation (x) have abandoned that priciple too, and have rather selfish pursuits. They don’t realise that independence (in the form of creativity and self sufficience) and selflessness/ compassion can co exist. It’s all “MY independence or nothing” Maybe that lack of collective awareness prevents young people and gen y’ers in general from particpating in democracy, even our most basic democratic right – voting.

            Dumbing down. Well, we’ve seen the effects of that on the American population in regard to their education system and your point about charter schools being introduced here is valid. As it is it does feel like we live in time devoid of critical thinking (or just thinking), questioning and engagement in meaningful discussion. It is just ‘stuff’ that seems to be the topic, as you say. Look at our free tv content. Unless it’s on Maori chanel (and they do have some great shows) you’ll have to get a dvd out or go online if you want to watch a documentary. A dumbed down nation is a submissive nation.

            Anyway, I am deteriorating into rant so will leave you in peace.
            One time if you feel like answering I’d be interested to know your thoughts (if any) on the outcomes of the Occupation Movement, internationally and here.

            • muzza 3.3.1.1.1.1
              5 October 2012 at 5:52 pm

              A dumbed down nation is a submissive nation.

              Very right Rosie, thats exactly what it is…

              Anyway, I am deteriorating into rant so will leave you in peace.
              One time if you feel like answering I’d be interested to know your thoughts (if any) on the outcomes of the Occupation Movement, internationally and here.

              The occupy movement, along with the “arab spring’, should be under the microscope for how to manufacture, hijack and destroy, hope, the same can be applied to Obama (remember is campaign slogans). Remember the Tea Party in the USA – How people brought into what was solid ideas, but yet the movement had been created entirely to steal the energy from the real grass roots movements. The key feature is to take over and re-direct what could be a threat to nullify it, or to turn it into something, that next time people will not be inclined to get involved with

              Occupy internationally and locally lacked cohesive demands, and then got taken over in the USA by the likes of Michael Moore, David Graber, which means that the establishment had already taken the control of the messages. While the intentions of the occupy movement were most likely solid, they were well and truly schooled in how technology will be used, along with the intelligence community to divert the energy to where it wants it to be directed, to control the narrative, to kill something off.

              NZ occupy, while not controlled to the same degree, was IMO still equally missing some basic tennants of what might have allowed them some degree of success. The active community from what I heve seen in AKL, is factuous, and full of people in it for their own gains, and the chance of a joined up approach is currently not likely. There are some really good people too, but until self importance is put aside, and they can find a “face” who can translate some very clear messages which ressonate with the “middle class”, its going to be hard to see it being a force for change!

              For an examply of how to get some traction see Syriza in greece, they brought together a bunch of disparate factions cohesively, had clear concise ideas, which they portrayed coherently, they increased their vote from 4-27%, and were a wisker away from being part of the government. What that would have meant is debateable in reality, but the case study is how Syriza pulled itslf together, the clarity of the messages/policies, and what those message/policies were!

              Could go all day on this, but thats about it for now…Take it easy Rosie

              • Rosie …
                6 October 2012 at 11:00 am

                “Occupy internationally and locally lacked cohesive demands and got taken over…………”

                Agreed. Thanks for taking ther the time to respond Muzza. Noted your points about the unity in the left wing factions in Greece, and their almost success in their elections. Also noted your point about there being good people in the movement in NZ, in Akld in your example but the movement was factious and folks driving their own agenda. Ditto here in Wgtn.

                In the early days of the movement before it came here I spent everyday on the livestream talking with people involved. It was hugely exciting and there was a real sense of connection and hope. I was uplifted by the speeches from people like Naomi Klein (I attended one of her talks over a decade ago when I lived in AK and have always liked where she comes from) and other campaigners who I’d never heard of and from the people themselves. I was wondering how this movement would translate into our culture. Not so well, I think, in the end and despite the best intentions.

                After attending the international day of solidarity in October last year I decided to stay on the periphery of the movement. I didn’t know how the movement could progress without a clear directive and demands, or leadership for that matter. I got that they wanted to diffuse a traditional power dynamic and they wanted to stay true to the model of the movement but just in my opinion there was no time for navel gazing. When I raised issues of our current political status I was told the movement was a post political movement. I was at odds with that statement. How could any movement that is essentially wanting a system change not be political? There was also the issue of the ego’s yet again and I felt a sense of the Wgtn chapter being exclusive and some how closed. There were some great people doing great work so I don’t mean to be disrespectful however I think we missed a good opportunity in NZ, especially as we were going into an election. I think there was more effect or should a say a different effect in both the US and the UK due to a different tact and a different political, economic and social situation compared to here, even though we have similarities. I could go on too.

                Got to dash – I have ducklings and their parents that come into the garden looking for food and water!

                Cheers Muzza, have a great weekend!

        • Dr Terry 3.3.1.2
          5 October 2012 at 2:05 pm

          Rosie, I appreciate your affirmation of the Springbok protest “activists”. I was one of them, and in the middle of the Hamilton ground which was terrifying. Now I am old and, regrettably, cannot get “out there” to demonstrate any more. (Nowadays, I am a “computer activist”!) But I have to say that I am dismayed at the amount of apathy in this country in connection with vitally important issues which are likely to adversely affect my grandchildren. Indifference is the killer! Oh, for some sign of “the old fire” (with the sole exception of the Queen Street protest against this government wrecking our beautiful environment in its insatiable greed to make money, especially for the already rich.

          • Rosie 3.3.1.2.1
            5 October 2012 at 2:48 pm

            Dr Terry. That is great to hear of your participation in the Springboks protests. Yes, I can imagine how terrifying that must have felt. What courage it must have taken to stand your ground. (The picket line has been a scary enough place for me at times! I’d have been useless had I been in your position) One of my former colleagues was involved in the Mt Eden protest and it was her determination and conviction that I found so inspiring. She was also a feminist and I learnt what I could from her about feminism. Its your generation that cared and made changes, so don’t feel regret at not being ‘out there’ now. Doing what you do is necessary and relevent. I’m not surprised that you feel dismay at the current apathy and I feel uncomfortable that my generation is part of that apathy.

      • john72 3.3.2
        10 October 2012 at 8:08 pm

        muzza, at the risk of sounding like a poltician, may I congratulate you because I agree with you.
        Regards,

    • weka 3.4
      5 October 2012 at 2:36 pm

      Rosie, where is the button to order comments from oldest to newest?

      • Rosie 3.4.1
        5 October 2012 at 3:03 pm

        Hi Weka. They’ve changed their format. To read in chronological order you will need to scroll down till you get to click on “read more comments” And then scroll backwards to read in order of the thread.Currently there are 50 comments.
        It started out positive yesterday and has deteriorated.
        I’m kicking myself because I broke my ban on commenting on fairfax sites and now have a jerk called eziyo telling me I’m the reason he’s moving to Australia (yes, a complete stranger he has never met) plus other inanities directed at me. It was kind of my fault becuase I got personal and called him racist. My bad. Ignorant and prejudiced would have been the correct term. He’s also completely misunderstood what I’m talking about. Oh god, why do I even care…………..

    • David H 3.5
      5 October 2012 at 5:59 pm

      Thank you Rosie for that .. Yay it finally looks as if the worm is turning. There was a couple of very good comments from a Kiwi who will never desert NZ ( I came here when I was 15 from England) I will never leave either. Coming from England via italy and round the cape on a liner, it was great I was 15 and the parents had owned a pub, so didn’t worry about the drinking, until the beer flavored sea sickness lol. BUT NZ was so clean after Southampton, Genoa, they were all dirty and grey. Capetown was very Dangerous Height of apartheid. Damn I’m getting old lol. It was amazing arriving at the Overseas Terminal at 10pm on a clear warm October night back in 1969. I’m getting stir crazy, been stuck in bed with this rotten flu all week. So don’t let the depressing views of the haters get to you, just hope that the Nacts implode before they can do too much damage. And Shearer stands aside in favour of Cunliffe it’s the only way to go. Thanks again it was great to see that there are not just haters out there. Keep up the good work.

      • Rosie 3.5.1
        6 October 2012 at 9:55 am

        One can live in hope! I guess its better late than never that folks are waking up to the reality of the monster govt they voted in. Now we just need some action. (And I agree, Cunliffe needs to be in that oppostion leadership position sooner rather than later)

        Sorry to hear of your flu. I bet its a stunning day up the coast today so hopefully thats enough to signal to that virus that its time to go. All the best for a good recovery:)

    • millsy 3.6
      5 October 2012 at 9:16 pm

      Gotta love the irony of people using their employers internet to complain about bludgers…

  4. tsmithfield 4
    5 October 2012 at 10:17 am

    Anyone else been getting redirect loop problems under chrome for “the standard”? I have tried clearing cookies several times etc, but the problem reappears almost immediately. “The Standard” is the only site I have encountered this problem with under chrome.

    • Red Rosa 4.1
      5 October 2012 at 10:23 am

      Yes, same experience I have to run IE to view the site.

    • Tony P 4.2
      5 October 2012 at 10:26 am

      Happening to me too. Just in the last week. Having to use IE just for the standard. Chrome is now opening TS in a different way too.

    • felix 4.3
      5 October 2012 at 11:20 am

      Yeah, I often get “redirect loop” problems at the standard – usually when I get into a conversation with tsmithfield, Gosman, kiwi_prometheus or BalancedView.

  5. joe90 5
    5 October 2012 at 10:36 am

    The fact checks on yesterdays US debates make interesting reading.

    Factcheck; Dubious Denver Debate Declarations

    Politifact: Fact-checking the Denver presidential debate.

    Washington Post: Factchecking the first presidential debate of 2012.

  6. Draco T Bastard 6
    5 October 2012 at 11:54 am

    I/S has an interesting post up at NRT:

    Public safety may be paramount, but the use of the armed forces for law enforcement purposes can only happen with the approval of the Prime Minister or next most senior Minister. it will be very interesting to see whether that approval has been granted in this case, or whether the police and army are once again relying on the Napier interpretation to bypass the law. If they are doing the latter, then I think its something Parliament needs to look at.

    It seems that the police may be getting a little gung-ho in their use of the armed forces to assist with policing.

  7. Katy 7
    5 October 2012 at 1:08 pm

    In the National Business Review dated Friday January 20 2012 (The same day as the Dotcom raids).
    OFCANZ deputy director Detective Inspector Grant Wormald talks about working with the U.S. Authorities over recent months.

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/megaupload-founder-arrested-new-zealand-us-officials-request-aw-108114

    OFCANS work is prioritised and assigned by the Commissioner of police who seeks advice from the Officials Committee for Domestic and External Security Co-ordination (ODESC)

    http://www.ofcanz.govt.nz/faq

    The ODESC gives the Prime Minister strategic advice on security and intelligence Matters, according to Wikipedia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officials_Committee_for_Domestic_and_External_Security_Co-ordination

    Given that the GCSB is part of the OCDES that advises the Prime Minister and according to Wormald
    “The FBI contacted New Zealand Police in early 2011 with a request to assist with their investigation into the Mega Conspiracy.” said Mr Wormald.
    “We were happy to provide this assistance. Staff from OFCANZ and New Zealand Police have worked with the US authorities over recent months to effect today’s successful operation.

    When the FBI first contacted the N.Z. Police to assist in their investigation how far up the chain of command did that request go? After all this was not a run of the mill Armed Offenders Squad call out. And it was way above the operational level that the Prime Minister doesn’t get involved in.

    I know Wormald has a creditability problem with some people, but credible or not as deputy director of OFCANZ saying that N.Z. Police and OFCANZ had been working with the U.S. Authorities for months prior to the raid proves that Key knows more than he is telling, he must do surly.

  9. Uturn 9
    5 October 2012 at 1:55 pm

    Feminine mystery, restrained by logic
    Becomes mostly masculine, except in one obvious way.
    One should not expect a man to be unable to see the beauty – is that the request?

    The danger, I’m told, is to weave your webs in the morning.
    Having met the danger, it is bewildering.
    There will be no loss of life or limb;
    No piercings or tattoos, but you’ll excuse me if I shave.
    The varmints path, while rough,
    is still too indulgent.
    Isn’t it just that the four seasons have forgotten their name?

    Nothing that is forgotten disappears.
    Nothing that is given up is rejected.

    • Jokerman 9.1
      5 October 2012 at 3:55 pm

      The Way that can be told of is not an Unvarying Way:
      The names that can be named are not unvarying names.
      It was from the Nameless that Heaven and Earth sprang;
      The named is but the mother that rears the ten thousand creatures, each after its kind.
      Truly, ‘Only he that rids himself forever of desire can see the Secret Essences’;
      He that has never rid himself of desire can see only the Outcomes.
      These two things issued from the same mould, but nevertheless are different in name.
      This ‘same mould’ we can but call the Mystery,
      Or rather the ‘Darker than any Mystery’,
      The Doorway whence issued all Secret Essences.

      –

      Friend, hope for the Guest while you are alive.
      Jump into the experience while you are alive!
      Think…and think…while you are alive.
      What you call “salvation” belongs to the time
      before death.

      If you don’t break your ropes while you’re alive,
      do you think
      ghosts will do it after?

      The idea that the soul will rejoin with the ecstatic
      just because the body is rotten-
      that is all fantasy.
      What is found now is found then.
      If you find nothing now,
      you will simply end up with an apartment in the
      City of Death.

      If you make love with divine now, in the next
      life you will have the face of satisfied desire.

      So plunge into the truth, find out who the Teacher is,
      Believe in the Great Sound!

      Kabir says this: When the Guest is being searched for,
      it is the intensity of the longing for the Guest that
      does all the work.
      Look at me, and you will see a slave of that intensity.

      by Kabir

      –

      Love After Love- Derek Walcott

      The time will come
      When, with elation,
      You will greet yourself arriving
      At your own door, in your own mirror,
      And each will smile at the other’s welcome,

      And say, sit here, Eat.
      You will love again the stranger who was your self.
      Give Wine. Give Bread. Give back your heart
      To itself, to the stranger who has loved you

      All your life, whom you ignored
      For another, who knows you by heart.
      Take down the love letters from the bookshelf,

      The photographs, the desperate notes,
      Peel your image from the mirror.
      Sit. Feast on your life.

      🙂

  10. ianmac 10
    5 October 2012 at 2:05 pm

    “…..proves that Key knows more than he is telling, he must do surly.” Yep. Surly describes him well. 🙂 Back at Katy @7

    Katy. That is a useful piece of research. It does suggest that a proper inquiry is needed – desperately!
    I suppose if a group is not visible, and is unlikely to have light shone on them, and if the representative of the people whose job it is to oversee is asleep, then it would be human nature to bend/break the rules. Integrity would become flexible?

    • Dr Terry 10.1
      5 October 2012 at 2:17 pm

      ianmac. Agreed “a proper inquiry is needed – desperately!” This must exclude any of Key’s henchmen(women). God spare us from the likes of Neazor!

  11. captain hook 11
    5 October 2012 at 3:17 pm

    Todays daily rag:
    “MR KEY GOES TO HOLLYWOOD”
    A STRANGE TERRIBLE AND TRAGIC TALE OF THE RUBE WHO GETS ROBBED OF ALL HIS BREAD IN TINSEL TOWN.
    and it wan’t even his own money!!!

  12. Jokerman 12
    5 October 2012 at 3:24 pm

    an aside,
    But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day. 2 Peter 3: 8

    handy to remember when too focused, the |Devil| is in the detail

    “All this Time the Guard was looking at her through a telescope,
    then through a microscope and then through an opera glass
    At last he said,
    You’re going the wrong way and shut up the window and went away.”

    (As it is written: “See I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” )-To the Romans 9:33

  13. Draco T Bastard 13
    5 October 2012 at 4:39 pm

    Ok, I this has got to be one of the most desperate attempts at character assassination that I’ve ever seen.

    • McFlock 13.1
      5 October 2012 at 6:50 pm

      lolz
      gop sez dems pwned. 
         
      I love that playing WoW is a character defect in republican eyes, but wearing a tri-corner hat and demanding to see birth certs in real life is simply “heartland america”. 

  14. Pascal's bookie 14
    5 October 2012 at 6:36 pm

    Loltastic.

    If someone with active commenting ability at kiwiblog would dump this into the Ansell thread over there, I would be much obliged. :

    http://t.co/5DYeV4N5

    The Rotary Club of Remuera has pulled the pin on John Ansell’s “Colourblind” campaign launch and cancelled its meeting in Auckland on Monday, October 8.

    In a statement, club president John Burrowes says Rotary is a non-political organisation and following what he termed “media hype” it became obvious the club had been “ambushed” into providing a platform for a political ad campaign launch.

    Mr Ansell, due to fly up from Wellington on Saturday, told NBR ONLINE Rotary had “misrepresented me terribly.”

    He says he was invited to talk some weeks ago by a Rotary club member and told he could invite “whoever I like.”

    On that basis he invited other people and the media.

  15. David H 15
    5 October 2012 at 7:04 pm

    So what now? If companies have to pay for background checks, depending on the cost then how many are doing to say bugger it? and it’s even worse if the schools are cash strapped.
    if the govt keeps cutting funding to the police and others eventually there will be anarchy

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10838478

    I mean make people pay for background checks what next ? Judge Dredd?

  16. Penny Bright 16
    5 October 2012 at 9:47 pm

    Hi folks!

    WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE FOR YOURSELVES HOW WE ARE NOT GIVEN THE ‘DEVILISH DETAIL’ ABOUT WHERE OUR TAXES ARE BEING SPENT?

    http://wheresmytaxes.co.nz/

    See?

    We aren’t told the NAMES of the contractors/ consultants; the SCOPE; TERM or VALUE of the contracted services within each ‘slice’ of the pie chart.

    The ‘devil is in the detail’.

    Isn’t it time to OPEN THE BOOKS and give us this DEVILISH DETAIL?

    Given that New Zealand is ‘perceived’ to be the ‘least corrupt country in the world’ – shouldn’t we be the MOST ‘transparent’?

    So why aren’t we being told EXACTLY where our public monies are being spent?

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1111/S00095/wheres-nationals-corporate-welfare-reform.htm

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

  17. starlight 17
    5 October 2012 at 9:57 pm

    Just released that meridian has walked away from the talks with the smelter at bluff.
    A source also said that meridian had plans with the electricity that the smelter would
    have used.
    Sorry cant link, but it is on the stuff site.
    What next for the economy, the ‘great decimation of our economy’ continues by the
    ‘keystoners’

  18. Jokerman 18
    5 October 2012 at 10:16 pm

    MSM

    -Civil Defence-dysfunctional
    -divided
    Duplication of Control (Kaos) Too many chiefs(over-managed like the rest of NZ)
    another freakin disaster?

    -Willis Street Pedestrian Barriers; Killing Business? Just Kill More Pedestrians.
    (kill kill kill kill kill the poor: Glad I’m not a Kennedy, imagine being a Kennedy)

    -over the Ring-Wraiths

    -NZTA; New Zealand Termination Agency (knackered PR)

    Brit Comedy Friday on ONE: laugh your way to the chamber.
    (Yes Minister)

    Parkinsons Dis-ease-Now Pigs On The Wing: nothing like a little xenotransplantation to get ya movin.

  19. Pete 19
    5 October 2012 at 10:30 pm

    Oh this is not good. This is not good at all. Negotiations break down between Rio Tinto and Meridian. Closure of Tiwai Point would devastate the lower South Island. The small silver lining is that it would make power companies a less attractive investment for asset sales with a flood of electricity onto the market, but this would harm a lot of workers and their families.

  20. millsy 20
    5 October 2012 at 10:42 pm

    Mitt Romney’s ‘victory’ in the first presidential debate is disturbing.

    The guy is probably the most right wing Republican presidential candidate ever, and his running mate is even more right wing then he is (Im waiting for some war vet to ‘nut out’ and shoot Romney, so Paul Ryan can slide into the Oval Office – a la Manchurian Candidate).

    If Romney gets in, those in the USA who aren’t rich are pretty much fucked.

  21. BloodyOrphan 21
    6 October 2012 at 5:39 pm

    Couple a thousand less hits last month, changing politics? or minds?