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Open Mike 06/08/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 6th, 2018 - 122 comments
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122 comments on “Open Mike 06/08/2018 ”

  1. Ed 1

    Remember Hiroshima.

  2. Incognito 2

    Life can be so unfair. Ask any toddler or child and they’ll tell you, passionately and with a earnestness that few adults can match.

    When we grow up and become discerning adults with sound judgement we realise that good looks matter and that life still is unfair.

    But not all is lost, it seems. Once we get past the first 2 crucial seconds for making a first impression and we get to know the other person, appearances take a step back:

    If all of this sounds exhausting, the good news is the halo effect mostly applies to strangers, and loses its shine over time. Once you’ve proven your worth in person, the arbitrary physical cues don’t matter as much, and you can let it all hang out a bit more.


    We tell students to work hard, go to uni, get a (real) degree, get a (real) job, work hard and you’ll have a (real) career and life will be sweet (as).

    Somewhere between uni and landing that first career-defining job it becomes clear that it doesn’t matter what you know but that it’s (more) important whom you know.

    So, we tell young ambitious people to build networks (no, Tinder doesn’t count) and use these to their advantage.

    Once in the job we tell ambitious young colleagues that hard work is not enough to get promoted. It is not what you know or whom you know. No, it’s who knows you. In other words, we tell the career-minded that they need to be noticed in order to get promoted. We tell them to blow their own trumpet and embark on an orgy of narcissistic self-embellishment.

    And then, after a fine long rewarding career that has been marked by personal development and growth, you can tell your grandchildren that life is unfair, passionately and with a earnestness that few toddlers or children can match 😉

    • DH 2.1

      I’ve often wondered if we’re rebellious in our teens because we felt betrayed by our peers. Most of us are brought up to be respectful of others, to not lie cheat or steal. It’s in our teenage years when we discover adults are everything we’re taught not to be, not really a surprise the young rebel when you look at it that way.

      • Wensleydale 2.1.1

        True. It’s only when you really become self-aware and take a good hard look at the world around you as a young adult that you realise how full of shit a lot of adults are. All those long years spent being told what not to do, only to realise everyone does exactly that all day long every day. The hypocrisy is mind-blowing. I proactively advise my teenagers that many adults are fucking charlatans and that respecting someone purely because they happen to be older than you is a steaming crock of shit. Respect is earned, not bestowed on you by virtue of your advanced years.

        • Draco T Bastard

          Respect is earned, not bestowed on you by virtue of your advanced years.

          And the rich demand respect because they’re rich. Unfortunately, a lot of people actually believe them hence why we see so many voting National.

    • Draco T Bastard 2.2

      We tell students to work hard, go to uni, get a (real) degree, get a (real) job, work hard and you’ll have a (real) career and life will be sweet (as).

      Hey, that was what I was told when young – didn’t work out that way though.

      Somewhere between uni and landing that first career-defining job it becomes clear that it doesn’t matter what you know but that it’s (more) important whom you know.

      Yep and WINZ has the figures to prove it. Most job placings are about who you know and not what you know.

      Once in the job we tell ambitious young colleagues that hard work is not enough to get promoted. It is not what you know or whom you know. No, it’s who knows you. In other words, we tell the career-minded that they need to be noticed in order to get promoted. We tell them to blow their own trumpet and embark on an orgy of narcissistic self-embellishment.

      And that’s how we end up with brown-nosers.

      • Bewildered 2.2.1

        Not my experience Draco, I new fk all people and came from very working class background, went to non event school etc, what I have learnt many people seek to externalise all their problems and failings, never taking accountability and often fail to realise the common factor in most of thier issues is themselves Saying that some people do just have bad luck

        • Stuart Munro

          It’s a percentage game.

          There was a time the study/work hard myth was mostly true here. Now it’s mostly untrue – social mobility is mostly negative.

        • Draco T Bastard

          you experience = anecdote with no foundation in reality.

          On the other hand WINZ has figures showing that more than 70% of jobs are awarded based upon who people know.

  3. North 3

    Oh Incognito…….the sadness of the circularity you depict……..”an orgy of narcissistic self-embellishment”…….very wry. Moreover, alarmingly accurate. The example which springs to mind at once……the regularity with which same name next generation individuals are glowingly hailed in the legal profession. Doors opened and pathways oftentimes quite gratuitously conferred by doorkeepers “who know you”.

    The implied justification is that it’s all about DNA. Which in reality stands for “Do Not Ask” established Power not to reflexively perpetuate itself.

  4. Carolyn_Nth 4

    The neo-fashist right or alt-right for “free speech”? yeah… nah.

    12 “far right” people in masks (one a Trump mask) attacked a London socialist bookshop. This is a chilling development. And why we don’t want them bringing their bile here.

    The Independent reports that they chanted fashist songs, threatened bookshop staff, threw some books around, videoed it and uploaded it online:

    The far-right group filmed their actions before swiftly deleting the video from their YouTube channel, however a copy was saved and uploaded again on the channel Far-Right Watch.

    It shows protestors screaming abuse, tearing up signs on display in the shop, and brandishing books with titles they disapprove of.

    Al Jazeera reports:

    “They attempted to intimidate staff and customers and to destroy books and materials.

    The attackers also made threats to return to “show what they can do”.

    “The normalisation of far right politics is already leading to chaos and vandalism on our streets. Fascist thugs attacking book shops is the logical conclusion to a political movement which rejects facts and experts,” said David Lammy, also a Labour MP.

  5. Cinny 5

    Watched ‘Sunday’ last night, mum was over and knew nothing about s&m so it was interesting watching it with her. Thought it was fair coverage airing both view points.

    Mum clued me up, smart lady my mum 🙂 She was laughing and aghast at the same time lolz. She explained to me that there were many great developed civilisations across the planet while the europeans were still being cave men. Such as the ancient egyptians. And with a masters in sociology, she has studied such things extensively, I really appreciate her knowledge on such topics. Then the IQ debate was brought up, far out mum was laughing hard by then.

    I did discover that when I asked questions via the youtube and s&m channel, their supporters get really aggressive, was told to kill myself. Was thinking.. ok then that’s going to win me over. Super amusing.

    Still puzzled as to why they would choose to come here in the first place, but then I remembered we live in an incredible country, of course people want to visit no matter their views.

    Glad that circus is over.

    • Anne 5.1

      Tell you what Cinny:

      Look at her now. A 23 year old with the skin of a new born baby and perfect features. Have a look at her in 30 years time – if she makes it. She will be a thin lipped old hag with sagging skin and red rimmed eyes and no-one will want to have a bar of her. Anyone with her beliefs and lifestyle is not going to stay looking young for long. Karma will get her years before it starts on the rest of us.

      • veutoviper 5.1.1

        Sorry, Anne, but a few weeks ago I saw a photo of Lauren and her father, mother and sister – possibly on Twitter – on her father’s birthday. It was hard to tell her mother from Lauren and her sister. Actually a very normal happy middle class white family type photo – think there was also a dog or two.

        I am not about to try to find it again – but from memory it may have been on her Twitter account befor she and Molyneux et al arrived in Australia, so about three or four weeks ago.


      • Puckish Rogue 5.1.2

        So you’re saying people only listen to her because of her looks?

        Have a look at some Blaire White youtube clips and see what you think of her then

    • Gosman 5.2

      What question/s did you adk that you got an aggressive response to?

      • Carolyn_Nth 5.2.1

        They S&M fan brigade are aggressive towards left wingers generally on that channel, without anyone asking questions.

        S&M wind them up by playing victim, and spinning their misinformation.

        • Gosman

          You are quite possibly right but that still doesn’t answer my querry about what questions were asked.

          • marty mars

            Why dont you just look?

            Report back your thoughts – should be interesting.

      • Cinny 5.2.2

        Hey Gosman….Will do a copy paste of one instance. Will refer to people as them and me for it….excuse the length of it lolz.

        THEM: Prime Minister of ew Zealand. A woman–Jacinda Ardern. Women destroy society

        ME: And women give birth, you wouldn’t be here without us. Wait, are women destroying society by giving birth to people like yourself? Ahhhh now I get where you are coming from. Could birth control for men be the answer?

        THEM: You’re a brainwashed moron. Sad!

        THEM: You see, women would not have been able to give birth without men. YOU wouldn’t be here without us (men) either. No one would, and no one is denying women’s high worth in a society. But women’s brains are completely different from men’s brains, and work and prioritize things differently from men. Things like emotions over facts, feelings over logic etc, are feminine traits in nature. If these traits are commonplace in politics, policies put into place will put more emphasis on people FEELING good, rather than it ACTUALLY being helpful or useful for the common people.

        ME: Science has now debunked that narrative……Brains cannot be categorised into female and male, according to the first study to look at sex differences in the whole brain. The mix of male and female features in the brain suggests that stereotypical gender assumptions, such as women are better at multi-tasking and men will earn more money, are redundant.

        THEM: Women always put the left parties in power

        THEM: You also wouldn’t be able to turn on a light enjoy clean running water have a modern roof over your head or be able to eat if it were not for men. Your welcome.

        THEM: Incorrect. Those MRI scans didn’t take into account both macro and micro neurological functions in endometamorphoses and metabolic functions; both are vital for distinguishing both male and female anatomy on a neurological level. Let’s not forget those physical anatomical private parts as a key to distinguishing.

        Note…then i went onto google to find out more about the above

        THEM: Rubbish, male and female brains are wired neurologically differently to produce different behavioral patterns. That is not even taking into account differences in the endocrine system. Not sure where you are getting your science but it is rubbish

        ME: What are neurological functions in endometamorphoses for humans? Where could one learn more about it?

        THEM: You’re a complete moron, go kill yourself.

        ME: The endocrine system is about the control and release of hormones in the body and related brain messages, such as producing breast milk, or sweating. That’s about the physical body being different, it is not about males or females having different brains, just different bodies, which as a result send different messages to the brain.

        THEM: I’m sorry but giving birth and incubating is a biological function. Just like taking a shit. You get no credit for that.

    • Carolyn_Nth 5.3

      Still puzzled as to why they would choose to come here in the first place,

      It’s not just NZ – they are on an international recruiting drive – I guess to Brit ex-colonies. They are particularly focusing on Aussie as fertile ground for their views and for fund raising, but adding Auckland into the schedule.

      Unfortunately, it’s not over. Nigel Farage, of the UKIP party is doing the Aus-Auckland speaking tour next, and he is a pro-Brit, anti-“immigrant” far righter; then Pauline Hanson is planning a visit.

      PS: Your mum sounds very smart and onto it, Cinny. Unfortunately, the TVNZ reporters, if they were truly doing their job, would’ve pointed out the fallacies of what S&M were saying.

      • marty mars 5.3.1

        Yes they are well funded hate merchants – the big knobs at the top of society more conflict and hate to generate more money.

      • Cinny 5.3.2

        Holy smoke Batman, Hanson is coming, dang. I wonder if all these alt rights are coming here to drum up support for national? Personally I’m not so sure that approach will work in NZ.

        Yesah Carolyn, my mum is awesome, I’m very lucky indeed.

    • marty mars 5.4

      Good one. Yes their alt right arguments are childishly simplistic and idiotic. No better than propaganda really. And they don’t like the cold steel of facts, as you found out via their YouTube. Be safe cos they attract truly awful people to their cause and internet toxic scum can spill.

    • veutoviper 5.5

      “Glad that circus is over.”

      Hopefully. As I said yesterday, I have been wondering whether they were still here – and lo and behold, just 30 minutes or so ago, Molyneux tweeted this:

      In a continued display of New Zealand’s endless hospitality, I was stopped and harassed by airport security for no apparent reason while leaving the country. Stay classy New Zealand!

      Whether Southern is with him or not is not clear, no Tweets from her since yesterday.

      Dave Pellowe, the Australian organiser of their tour appears to be back in Australia since about Sat and concentrating on other interests – catchup retweeting lots of other things and only one or two re the S&M show. EG apparently he is a strong Christian Pro-Lifer …

      Caolan Robertson, the young (23 year old) twit that runs around videoing everything on his phone who was interviewed by Paddy Gower – as “an agent for Ms Southern” re the Powerhouse change of mind – is based in London SW3 (Chelsea) not Canada. Not clear whether he has left but yesterday he was madly tweeting insulting tweets re Gower. Caolan (pronounced Kay-Lin) is a bestie (aka leech) of Stephen Lennon aka Stephen Yaxley-Lennon – better known as Tommy Robinson. Built up quite a dubious reputation in his short young life after a cloistered private school upbringing in London by Irish parents.

      [A bit of information you all were waiting for – Molyneux was actually born in Ireland, not Canada. Ireland saw sense early on.]

      Molyneux has tweeted three more tweets since the one above – two are retweets of Robertson’s tweets dissing Gower. Poor Paddy. He’s pretty hopeless but doesn’t deserve that.

      The third tweet is priceless – a selfie (or did LS take it?) of Molyneux holding a book in the bookshop entitled “Are you smarter than a chimpanzee?” by Ben Ambridge. In your case, Moly, the answer is a definite NO.

      • veutoviper 5.5.1

        Dan Satherley on Newshub has now picked up on and written an article about Molyneux’ s “Critical Message” * on YouTube yesterday which I posted on yesterday on Open Mike. * a new title for begging for money.


        I rather like Satherley’s turn of phrase through much of his article. His degree of cynicism seems to be close to mine when I watched it. A few tastes – or rather most of it minus videos and photos.

        Mr Molyneux has now taken to YouTube, uploading a 12-minute video which oscillates between decrying the “demonic mob” that got their show cancelled, and asking for supporters to “like, subscribe and share” – and give him money.

        “We lost a venue. Hundreds and hundreds of people who had come a long way and were very passionate to hear this conversation, to engage in what Lauren and I were going to discuss, we lost the venue and that’s costly. It’s very expensive, and I need your help,” he said, staring directly into the camera in a sparse room with white walls. “I would really, really appreciate it.”

        He said the funding is necessary for him to keep speaking out against the “encroaching mob and horde of mindless violence the left seems to want to unleash on the failing remnants of civilisation”.

        Without more money, Mr Molyneux fears “self-contempt, self-hatred and possibly incarceration or death itself”, because “that’s what happens when the left gains power”.

        He then took a shot at Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, who at the weekend said Kiwis were “hostile” to Mr Molyneux’s views.

        “The Prime Minister was the head of a youth socialist organisation not a decade ago, so that’s what you get.”

        Ms Ardern was indeed elected president of the International Union of Socialist Youth in 2008, but since becoming Prime Minister in 2017 is yet to sentence anyone to “incarceration or death” based on their political views. [My Bold]

        Mr Molyneux’s beliefs include that people of different races have different levels of intelligence – a view which has been widely rejected by geneticists.

        Ms Southern’s most famous for trying to prevent the rescue of migrants on overloaded boats at risk of sinking in the Mediterranean Sea.

        Mr Molyneux says unless “free speech” is kept alive, “we are going to end up with bayonets pointed at each other’s hearts”.

        “I am trying with all of my might and all of my rhetoric and all of my energy and efforts to stop the war that is coming. This feral escalation of abuse and violence and threats and deplatforming is going to escalate into war. History is very clear on this point.

        “I don’t know if the left knows how much it’s going to escalate, I don’t know if they want it, I don’t know what the hell is going on, but I’m telling you, it’s coming.” [Again my bold . LOL]

    • adam 5.6

      Cinny I find if you going to do youtube be aware that most yanks who are on those pages are sexist, spiteful and full of hate. My response is either OTT on the love and hugs thing which pisses them off, or ask them sexually loaded questions, which they can’t handle. It rough and tumble world on youtube – you have to be prepared.

      • Cinny 5.6.1

        Adam, you are so correct. Was thinking before that I probably need to lose my female name and female looking avatar if I ever venture there again.

        Did learn they do seem to go a bit psycho if you don’t get angry. Yes they don’t like women, crikey does that make them all gay. ROFL. I need to keep my cheeky side in check 🙂

        • adam

          Cheeky with love comments and hug comments winds them up the best. I use to go to certain sites, now gone, just to wind them up with love bombs 🙂 Or quotes from the bible that talk about the poor and love, they hate that as well. Especially if you don’t say where it’s from – you can led them on, and then say their not christians – watch the train wreck when you pull that one. But, just never mention your a Catholic if you are, they have a special place full of hate for Catholics.

    • Bewildered 5.7

      To be fair Cinny I can’t really see the big issue here

      All Southern was debating is merits of multiculturalism not saying I agree with her but is the debate so scary, on this topic I thought tv 1 was not impartial, she never got to explain her belief, and I am sure she was going to go down ethic ghettos, integration failure places like France , Germany uk etc

      likewise the iq issue, again cut off very quickly , he waas quoting averages not individually as is the case for all social science, think prisons stats, likewise these stats that reflect US army enlistments so extensive data Why not debate the stats, ie whites where not on top, is iq a valid construct anyway, what we he intending to coney in these stats then judge accordingly

      Overall I felt pretty dissapointrd with tv 1 effort I left no more enlightened than I at the start of show On western civilisation. We are talking what judo Christian ethics, Roman law, Greek democracy and the enlightenmen has created western civilisation today m, it’s pretty impressive, not to dis other civilisation s I don’t think they come close, just a view

  6. Anne 6

    Barry Soper has excelled himself. Yes, that hard-as-baked crust journo with the red rimmed eyes (see my 5.1) and the jaundiced ears saw a documentary last night and in the process found his long lost empathy for others less privileged than himself.


    Long may it last.

    • OnceWasTim 6.1

      “Long may it last”
      I wouldn’t bank on it @ Anne, and I’ll resist the link provided.
      I wouldn’t have described him as a journo though. You must be feeling charitable.
      More like one of those bad smells all plastered with Old Spice that hangs around members of the 4th Estate’s Press Gallery/Gang hoping to be taken seriously one day on the basis of his longevity and trophy woif.
      In those olden days, they were referred to as ‘hacks’ for good reason

    • veutoviper 6.2

      OnceWasTim is really missing out and obviously has not realised the subject – the dearly missed Celia Lashlie (1953 – 2015).

      I really want to see that documentary. There was an excellent interview on Nine to Noon last Thursday pre the Film Festival launch of the documentary in Wellington. Here is the link to the 23 min audio, and the summary of the interview with Amanda Millar:


      A new documentary about Celia Lashlie is screening as part of the New Zealand International Film Festival. The passionate social justice advocate, researcher, author, former prison officer and much loved parenting commentator on Nine to Noon died just over three years ago after – weeks after being diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. The feature length documentary is directed by her friend, journalist Amanda Millar, who interviewed Celia in her final days.

      23 minutes of well worth listening. I did not realise how much I missed Celia’s voice, She was unique in more ways than one.

      RNZ also has a really good archive of Celia’s interviews etc over the years here:

      • OnceWasTim 6.2.1

        I’ll more than likely stumble on it anyway without the help of Barry Bloody Soper, but thanks – you’ve piqued my interest
        There’s just no way I can take Bazza or his gorgeous wife seriously having come across him in a past life in the eastern suburbs

        • veutoviper

          I understand having similarly come across him in a past life in the Wellington beltway. I am also wary about clicking links if I don’t know who or what it is about.

        • Sacha

          Do say more ..

  7. marty mars 7

    The desperate vermilion hamster is worried and he has increased everything. Expect big fireworks soon as the net tightens – watch out countries of the world.

    “The frequency of the president’s mistruths has picked up, as well. The Washington Post Fact Checker found last week that Trump has now made 4,229 false or misleading claims so far in his presidency – an average of nearly 7.6 such claims per day, and an increase of 978 in just two months.”


  8. marty mars 8

    Globalisation as we speak?

    “PGG Wrightson has agreed to sell its seed and grain business to Danish cooperative DLF Seeds for $421 million in cash and $18 of debt repayment, and signalled it may return up to $292 million to its shareholders.”


    • adam 8.1


      • marty mars 8.1.1

        Thank the gods you didn’t use that misleading, although correct, term liberalism. Can’t stand that shit 😊

        • adam

          Yeah, it’s why I stopped using neo, and just call it liberalism these days. As for colonisation, it does feel a lot like version 2.0 when stuff like this goes off shore.

          • SpaceMonkey

            It started in 1825 under the New Zealand Company and has never stopped. The only material difference between then and today is that the country of origin of the corporate colonisation is no longer just Britain and the natives of New Zealand getting shafted are no longer just brown-skinned.

    • Sacha 8.2

      “signalled it may return up to $292 million to its shareholders.” – that is, we can’t think of anything to do with the money so we’re passing it on. Geniuses.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.3

      Ah, more bludging by those that don’t work on the hard workers of NZ.

    • tc 8.4

      Yup screw the long term strategic control of our supply side issues there’s cash to be had today.

      Chump change to them and thanks for playing PGW.

  9. Jenny 9

    “Never again”


    Twelve men invaded the shop … destroying displays, wrecking books and chanting Alt-right slogans. One was wearing a [US President] Donald Trump mask,” the central London store said in a Facebook post.

    “They attempted to intimidate staff and customers and to destroy books and materials. Fortunately no one was hurt. We will not let this happen! Never Again!”

  10. adam 10

    Great interview with Barrett Brown,about the rise of the power of the state to shut down the media. If you have the time, I was doing house work. 27 minutes long.

    • weston 10.1

      second that adam i didnt need an excuse to watch it though i was just avoiding the housework if anything !Mighty scary future we are all rushing toward

  11. Pat 11

    99% of NSW in drought, farms and their produce on the brink and ‘ no amount of money from the Federal government is going to solve that’…..spring and summer still to come.

    Get away from it all on a cheap flight to Bali….maybe Fiji would be better at the moment.

    • Cinny 11.1

      Would love to see massive warehouses of indoor hydroponic gardens. With the climate changing so much, at least food wouldn’t be so weather dependent. Must be horrid for the farmers at present. Time to diversify and evolve.

      • Pat 11.1.1

        Thing about hydroponics is it still requires water even though considerably less, and infrastructure that is every bit as susceptible to adverse weather….it is well past time to admit we are in serious strife.

        • Robert Guyton

          Hydroponics removes plants from their Mother, Papatuanuku ; can’t be good, surely?

          • Draco T Bastard

            That would depend upon how it’s done. Where they get the resources to feed the plants from and where those resources go after use.

          • Pat

            I dont know if its necessarily ‘bad’ but I seriously doubt its a viable replacement

        • Draco T Bastard


          This one is the most interesting:

          All the water used for irrigating the crops is piped from the Spencer Gulf and converted into fresh water using a thermal desalination unit.

          Mr Simkins has spent more than two decades running tomato greenhouses in Europe and North America and says the desalinated water is first-class.

          “It’s almost the perfect water,” he said.

          “You’re taking all the salt out of it, there’s no disease aspects, it’s very pure and then we’re able to enhance it with the nutrition that the plants require.”

          • Pat


            If memory serves Melbourne are building a massive plant at the moment off the back of their own water issues from previous years

            • Exkiwiforces

              Yes and thanks to that muppet Kennett when he privatised the water so they had to mothball it after they built it and the same happened up in SE Queensland, but for a different set of reasons aka we were saving more water than what was being used, recycling waste water and pumping it back into the dams and the drought broke aka the Brisbane floods.

            • Draco T Bastard

              Desalination is expensive. Although the price tag varies by region and is often obscured by corporate underestimates and government subsidies, it is more often two to four times as costly as traditional options.

              Which is probably true if using fossil fuels. Probably not with ones that are solar powered.

              Desalination is bad for the environment and human health. The by-products of desalination include coagulalants, bisulfates, and chlorines. When concentrated waste is dumped into the ocean as it is with desalination, it is harmful to marine life and environments. Furthermore, power plants’ intake mechanisms, which are often teamed with desalination plants, kill at least 3.4 billion fish and other marine organisms annually.

              In the examples I used the water was going to be pure with no other chemicals in it and the power station was part of the farm. Proper design of the inlet can prevent damage to fish (although I’m not going to hold my breath about a private commercial operation doing that as it will be expensive to produce and Maintain).

              Desalted water also puts drinking water supplies at risk because seawater contains chemicals such as boron, that freshwater does not. Boron, only 50 to 70 percent of which is removed through the desalination process

              Which just seems to be wrong:

              They found that boron begins to evaporate from solution at a temperature of around 55°C. As the temperature applied to the systems increased, the amount of boron evaporated from seawater also increased. “But even though boron is volatile at high temperatures, both desalination technologies were effective in reducing its concentrations in desalinated water to below the Saudi standard of 0.5mg/l, even at seawater temperatures exceeding 100°C,” says Alpatova.

              Desalination contributes to global warming and requires large amounts of energy.

              Solar powered remember.

              Desalination turns water into a commodity.

              It’s not desalination that does that but capitalism and the profit drive.

              Yeah, I think that article is worth ignoring for being simply wrong.

              • Pat

                You are getting ahead of yourself Draco



                Wishing wont solve this …and with the time/resource constraints nor will technology.

                dismiss all the articles you like…were fucked

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Did you have a point there?

                  You haven’t addressed anything I said.

                  • Pat


                    “The move falls in line with the Kingdom’s Vision 2030, which is based on diversifying its economy away from oil and gas. And with desalination and residential cooling set as the two largest uses of power, and desalinated water demand expected to double in the next decade, experts say that it is more profitable for the country to sell oil and gas while using alternative resources, such as nuclear, for water desalination.”
                    “Nuclear power is one of the options in the power mix that could also contain wind energy and solar, but these systems cannot take over the major role in the power mix. Moreover, these are also somehow much more vulnerable to damage, like sabotage, and even the effects of climate change.”

                    So renewables cannot meet the demand, 16 nuclear power stations mooted (all pumping heat into the ocean) for Saudi Arabia alone and we know how quickly they are designed and constructed (not to mention the growing sand shortage worldwide)…not

                    and then…..

                    “And studies have shown that the Gulf will only get saltier in the future. Raed Bashitialshaaer, a water resources engineer at Sweden’s Lund University, says that the growth of desalination plants in the region is happening far faster than his own estimated.”


                    So many of these ‘saviour’ solutions ignore the scale required and the impact at scale…..never mind the resources and timeframes involved…as Kevin Anderson says, we cant build our way out of this

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Yes, will have to admit the the ME isn’t the best place to do it. Too many people and not enough water flow. Or, to put it another way, the ME is fucked.

                      I think you’ll find that it won’t apply quite so much to Australia with the worlds oceans surrounding them. Of course, that will be dependent upon if they only try to keep themselves going and not trying to export it all. Unfortunately, they’ll probably try exporting it for the money.

                      Still, there are many concerns that need to be looked at but these simply shouldn’t be thrown away because of one area where it simply won’t work.

                  • Pat

                    And thats the point isnt it?…one region suffers a water/food shortage and the population (or a significant proportion of) moves and exacerbates the problem in other resource stressed regions…a domino effect.

                    If the ME is fucked then ultimately we all are.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      I’ve been saying that for quite awhile with regards to climate change and refugees that will end up coming here and we will have to stop them. There’s no way that NZ could support any more than what we have now once the climate turns.

  12. Ad 12

    Great to see NZForest and Bird signing an MOU with Landcorp (PAMU) on researching, implementing and promoting agricultural practices that protect the natural world.


    • marty mars 12.1

      I hope it helps the environment.

      I looked at pamu and got to this bit

      “At Pāmu, we’ve spent 130 years getting to know nature.

      We are Kaitiaki – guardians – of nature. ”

      Yeah nah.

      Māori are kaitiaki and everything culturally that that means. Your group may be stewards, guardians, protectors or whatever but imo you can never be kaitiaki because that concept has cultural aspects which you can never reach.

      • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1

        Māori were the biggest destroyers of native life on this land of ours eliminating about 50% of the forest before the Europeans even got here. That’s true of almost all indigenous peoples around the world.

        • marty mars

          So what?

          • Draco T Bastard

            So Māori don’t get to claim being the only people who have kaitiaki over NZ natural health. They really don’t have that tradition, that culture.

            • marty mars

              You don’t know what kaitiakitanga means I think. And that’s okay cos most don’t but it relates to mana.

        • Molly

          Interesting link about fire and Māori if you care to read it: Māori Fire Use and the Southern Landscape

          There was another paper I read recently, that spoke about the use of fire to clear vegetation, and suggested that it was used so that regeneration would occur, as opposed to the clearance of forests for agriculture. But I can’t find it. The one above is a good read though.

      • KJT 12.1.2

        Marty. I have heard Maori, many times refer to DOC and other Pakeha as Kaitiaki. Not sure that all agree with you.

    • Stuart Munro 12.2

      Forest and Bird have done a number of odd things of late, of which swallowing the koolaid on 1080 is not the most reassuring.

      We do indeed need some cooperation between environmental and agricultural interests, but the areas of greatest need do not seem to be being addressed and we must be wary of invidious compromises.

    • Robert Guyton 12.3

      Which agricultural practices protect the natural world; can you describe one?

      • Stuart Munro 12.3.1

        Planting of trees on unstable slopes. Migration corridors. Steiner gravity water aerator/purifiers. Shelter belts and shade trees. Riparian planting.

        Of course these are mostly required by the monocultural approach of previous farming models, so that at best they improve the current environment rather than restoring an ideal. They are still worthwhile however.

        It does complicate issues like the Mackenzie however – however unsuitable intensive dairy may be with its unsustainable water demands, the tussock lands were in many cases geologically recently covered with broadleaf forest, and some restoration of that would tend to increase the diversity and robustness of the area, so the tussock is not necessarily the state to prefer, however much it may have become iconic of the area.

        • Robert Guyton

          Thanks Stuart – my point, vaguely hinted at, was that the sorts of practices you list are responses to the harm caused by agriculture; agriculture can only protect, in a very small way, the natural world from…itself.

          • Ad

            We are the natural world Robert.

            We dominate it, and have done for a while.

            We are its destroyers, its replicators, and its generators.

            We are also its guardians.

            Pamu are not proposing tree forests.
            They are proposing lower-harm and high value commercial agriculture.
            And they are now working in concert as one of our largest state-run businesses with our largest conservation organization.

  13. The Aussies have had 7 years of drought in some areas. Australians are talking “Climate Change” openly now. Although they are used to droughts, and burn offs are a way of life, the fact that this drought involves all states bar parts of Western Australia, has shaken the lucky country’s confidence.

    As in California, the water tables are at all time lows, and winter temperatures are up to 7 deg higher than usual in some areas. They are dreading summer, fearful the seasonal rains will fail.

    Many farmers have reached the end of their financial emotional and physical tethers. The larger outfits are now pressuring Government as all their “safety measures” are exhausted. Smaller outfits are trying to keep key stock and their land. A grant of $8000 per person on a farm each 6 months is paying for limited feedstuff, and they can claim “Job start”…. if their assets are not too high!!
    It is sad and very grim. We are told food shortages and high prices are certain.

    Lamb is A$40.00 a kilo right now, and wool is coming back into fashion. Those involved in cattle are not coping so well, as they require far more in water resources.
    You know it is bad when politicians don’t point score over it too much.

    • Pat 13.1

      And you can add (or subtract) the reduced yields from UK, Europe. Nth America to that….probably others that I havnt noticed in the past couple of weeks

    • Exkiwiforces 13.2

      Not sure if you have been following the ABC’s Landline while you have in Oz. This current Big Dry and why it has effected almost every farming community in particular those that don’t get effective by drought is because winter weather pattern has changed.

      Since the start of the Big Dry, the weather boffins have noticed the usual high pressure systems which trends to stay up round the Northern part of Australia during winter are now a lot further South and covering most of Australia now. This led to the failure of the winter rains in the southern states which is now leading to all sorts of problems from livestock, winter and summer crops failing and the shortage of feed for livestock.

      With these high pressure pushing even further south the usual winter rains are being push even further south hitting Tassie or worst missing Tassie altogether and hitting the West Coast/ Southern part of NZ. This year in the Northern Australian we are starting to notice a our build up weather system before the Wet Season kicks in around the December has arrived two mths early than normal as we usually expect to this type of weather around the end of September or the middle of October.

      • KJT 13.2.1

        With Australia’s already existing artesian salination nightmare, I suspect high water use agriculture is not going to last for long.

        • Exkiwiforces

          Yes, especially for those Southern States in the Murray Darling river basin.

  14. Puckish Rogue 14


    “Fletcher Tabuteau, the deputy leader of New Zealand First, comes from Waiteti Marae in Ngongotaha near Rotorua, of which Haumaha is the chairman.

    They are both Ngāti Ngāraranui and Tabuteau referred to Haumaha as a member of his whānau in his maiden speech to Parliament in 2014.

    Tabuteau’s uncle Tommy Gear – a close friend of Winston Peters – is a trustee of the Ngāti Ngāraranui Hapu Trust along with Haumaha.”

    Its looking murkier and murkier

    • marty mars 14.1

      A shocker – two Māori related!!! What nek? fish mostly swim.

    • Draco T Bastard 14.2

      You do know how 2 Degrees gets it’s name right?

      We could probably see the exact same situation in National or any party for that matter.

  15. marty mars 15

    Terrible things happening over there

    “Saudi Arabia freezes Canada trade ties, recalls envoy”


  16. Gosman 16

    Just look at how people on the Standard responded to the Southern and Molyneux controversy here. There was a huge amount of publicity generated. Trump has a very similar style and you think the Media reported it more because the Democrats told them to?

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Bill 16.1

      There was a huge range of opinion expressed on this blog over aspects of Southern and Molyneux’s attempted speaking engagement.

      That, and neither Molyneux nor Southern were political candidates contesting a selection process for a political party.

      Hillary Clinton’s campaign team decided to (their words) “tell the press to take them [the pied piper candidates] seriously“.

      Unless you believe that political parties have no media influence, then that gets taken at face value.

      Oh. And trolling. Not going to go down well with me today Gosman.

  17. OnceWasTim 17

    It just doesn’t stop ffs!

    This http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2018/08/just-wrong.html

    and this https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/363428/immigration-nz-forced-to-address-privacy-concerns-with-realme

    and this : The process of repressing public sector remuneration (except at the top) has been going on for three decades ( in https://www.pundit.co.nz/content/%E2%80%98business-opinion%E2%80%99-is-falling-does-it-matter )

    All in the space of 24 hours

  18. Dennis Frank 18

    Last night on open mike I posted (32) a quote from “Who we are and how we got here: ancient DNA and the new science of the human past” by Harvard Professor of Genetics, David Reich. He asserted that the “long-held view about race has been proven wrong”.

    I’m inclined to read this as invalidating any possible scientific basis for races, but we should await the emergence of a consensus of relevant experts. Aged 44, Reich graduated “BA in physics from Harvard University and a PhD in zoology from the University of Oxford”. He writes “I played an important role in the analyses that proved interbreeding between Neanderthals and some modern humans”. The term modern has a technical meaning to archaeologists (& geneticists) – he’s not referring to our normal meaning of modern.

    Chapter 11 is entitled “The Genomics of Race and Identity”. Here’s a sample: “Compared to most academics, the politics of genome bloggers tend to the right… The Eurogenes blog spills over with sometimes as many as a thousand comments in response to postings on the charged topic of which ancient peoples spread Indo-European languages… The genome bloggers take pleasure in pointing out contradictions between the politically-correct messages academics often give about the indistinguishability of traits across populations and their papers showing that this is not the way the science is heading.”

    Tell the truth or kowtow to the brain police? Scientists don’t get taught how to handle the interface between ethics and morality as part of their education. Understandable that they obfuscate. Truth hurts.

    • Carolyn_Nth 18.1

      Reminds me of a Twitter thread by Jesse Berentson-Shaw about her latest book last night:

      Had interesting chat with journo about the need for media systems to respond to the evidence that there is no ‘neutral’ way to present info & neither do people receive it neutrally. The rational weighter model, the neutral balance is a fiction based on the ideal of people 1/

      2/Much like those in science believing they can present research neutrally, when all language frames a position whether you are aware or not, & all people filter it through the values & beliefs they have-if you draw on existing cultural narratives that is how info is framed…

      3/so a ‘neutral platform’ to racist people is not neutral. Racism is a strong cultural narrative in western cultures. Unless clearly framed in the values & beliefs that reject racism then ‘neutral’ presentation of these people is de facto support of them & ideas. #amatteroffact

      4/much like a neutral platform of climate change science opens the door for people to filter it through unhelpful values & beliefs, or indeed any research that needs strong collective action. You can read more about these ideas in my book

      • Dennis Frank 18.1.1

        Yes, her concept of neutrality seems unworkable. During the decade I spent in the TVNZ newsroom, I was often evaluating how the journos & reporters were framing their stories to achieve balance. Usually it seemed reasonable enough but sometimes gross imbalance was obvious & made me angry. Their rule would have required them to give Hitler equal time during WWII.

        What works better is to give credit where due, give both sides a share of the story so the viewer can weigh the pros & cons. So my disgust with our media mishandling of the Canadians is because it gave me no evidence upon which to evaluate their actual beliefs & opinions. Media who don’t inform people are a waste of time.

        • Carolyn_Nth

          The question of balance is only one aspect. On TV news the message conveyed is also about how the story and views are framed – how people are filmed, how it’s edited, etc.

          Also, “balance” suggests there are always 2 main sides of an issue and that they exist around a fixed centre. It’s important,a s you say, to be able to evaluate the evidence. And following the evidence can be as important as any half-arsed attempt at balance.

          Sue Abel did research at TV One – observing how Maori were represented in the news. She concluded that bias crept in, partly because of the time pressure the newsrooms were operating under. So journalists, editors, etc just resorted to the same sorts of representations they used or had seen in the past, without a lot of reflection.

          I see some of Sue’s lecture notes are on the NZ Herald site (2010)

          In these notes, she also points out that the notion of “balance” is a pakeha concept.

          I don’t know what you mean by Berentson-Shaw’s concept of neutrality is unworkable. She’s saying that neutrality is not totally possible. So, it’s important for journalists to be aware that they will always be framing their writing in ways that are not totally neutral.

          Also, journalists cannot predict how people will read their stories. So, again, they need to be explicit about the points they are making. It’s also why a news organisation should have journalists who come from a different perspective.

          Scientists are not necessarily great communicators. But journalists reporting on research often don’t report it very well. And science journalism can be particularly poor. They just tend to take a main idea from the research, and lose the nuances and/or critique the methodologies or weaknesses in the research.

          Often journalists don’t get enough time to really get to grips with a research topic these days. And news organisations have not helped the situation by focusing too much on infotainment,ratings and click bait – creates short attention spans.

  19. Exkiwiforces 19

    Mike Smith ask me question a while back and my apologies for a late reply to your question which was back around the 25th of July I think?

    Anyway here’s the link https://thestandard.org.nz/brexiting-the-eu/#comment-1506480 for anyone who wants to read back.

    There are few problems with P8 and it’s why I prefer the Japanese P1 over the P8, but selecting the P1 would’ve left us as the first overseas user and given what has happened with the NH90’s, Project Protector (aka the two OPV’s and the Canterbury), the up armoured LOV’s (which were quietly retired last yr and throughout this yr) they obviously judged the risk as being first overseas user to be not worth the risk given NZG, MoD and NZDF track record of late I can’t really blame them.

    So what the main issues-
    It’s a part of the US Special Projects Program ( F22, F35 JSF, Joint Rivet/ Air Seeker, Reaper aka UAV’s both Armed and unarmed etc).
    Weight: Max Takeoff weight (MTOW)
    Doubts over its Fatigue life aka the wings
    Mission support systems,
    The use of UAV’s to support the P8 on certain mission profiles to get the best out of P8 and the
    dropping ASW ordnance from high attitude

    The P8 being a part of the Special Project Program is going leave the NZG, MoD and the NZDF in knots, a) because of the Security that comes the P8 weather it’s passive or actived during non warlike or warlike or peace time operations, b) the US hold all the IP rights or any upgrades, replacement parts have to through the US. So what does this mean? Well we would have to pay top dollar as we can’t do what we have done to the P3’s of the last 10-15yrs etc IRT upgrades, deep level maintenance will more likely to be done by Boeing Australia not Safe Air as is the case atm. The Poms are finding this out the hard way already as some of the mission support systems on the Nimrod R1’s or R2 and the defunct MR4 Project had were in fact far better than US supplied ones.
    So long term funding for upgrades is going to be an issue for sure given NZG track record for Defence funding.

    Weight has pretty much dogged the P8 since the start in particular it’s all up MTOW. Half the cost of the P8s that NZ is buying is tried up building new infrastructure at Ohakea because of the MTOW as the runway at RNZAF base Auckland is short and the other reasons is the mandated security requirements of the P8 as required the US. The weight issue is going to be a major factor in where P8 can operate from within NZ and the Pacific Region in certain seasons.

    Since the start of the P8 program Boeing has been a bit coy about the overall fatigue test IRT the wings and wing box as P8 wasn’t meant to do low flying from the start and since some of the mission and ordnance systems haven’t worked all that well at higher altitudes. This inturn has meant Boeing has spent time and money redesigning the wings etc, reduce the fatigue failure on the wings and wing box which has added a weight and range penalty as most wings are designed to flex within limits but low level flying this reduces the overall fatigue life of the wings etc. if you are ever flying to Wellington on a rough day have a look at how much wing movement there is.

    The Mission Support Systems have been problematic as ASW and Anti Surface Warfare has been by tradition a low to medium level affair. But the USN and Boeing have taken a leap in faith of new technologies which hasn’t sorted of work, but incorporating UVA’s and Increment 1 systems include persistent anti-submarine warfare capabilities and an integrated sensor suite; in 2016, Increment 2 upgrades will add multi-static active coherent acoustics, an automated identification system, and high-altitude anti-submarine weapons.Increment 3 in 2020 shall enable “net-enabled anti-surface warfare”. This should be sorted out by the time NZ gets its first P8 as this wee problem has stuffed its range, time on station and fuel burn as it move fro me Hi to Low and to Hi etc.

    Incorporating the use of UAV’s has allowed those limitations on certain missions to be overcome, but without it has led to some issues as the P8 has to then go low level which then effects range, TOS and fuel burn performance etc. To really get the best out of the P8 you really need to invest into UAV’s, but also they have issues as well and insuring that both RNZN ships and deployed NZ Army formations down to a tactical level are able to process data received from the P8 as it’s a truly a Joint Multi Mission Platform if all the bells and whistles are working and that’s a big if IRT NZG funding towards Defence in the past.

    Now this should’ve been obvious to the muppets at Boeing that trying to drop a ASW weapon from a great height wasn’t to work from the start! At the moment to conduct ASW Warfare they have to go back to basics ie back to 250ft to 300ft off the deck (which btw out of all the tac flying I’ve of done, flying at 200ft – 250ft off the deck on 3 engines in P3 beats any show ride especially if you chasing something). Because of this obvious limitation this really bugged up a number problems already addressed and the long term effects are unknown or base on assumptions especially if Boeing has fudge the fatigue numbers. Boeing is hoping to have one sorted by the time the P8 enters RNZAF and if it doesn’t then any savings it was hoping achieved are well in truly kick into touch.

    Is this right Aircraft for NZG, MoD and RNZAF? Well it’s depends on ones POV, if the NZG keeps maintaining P8 with regular updates/ upgrades then yes, if I was a on UN Chap 4-7 Mission with my troops in contact giving me a feed on what’s going on and able to me to support me with offence support if required then yes. NZ is a Maritime dependent and without secure Sea Lanes Of Communications then NZ economic wealth and overall it’s economy will suffer if it goes pear shape as the P8 a Maritime Platform then yes.

    But if the NZG can’t be stuffed at maintaining the P8 like they usually do with the rest of Defence then don’t buy it. Like all Defences purchases there are pros and cons with the added factor of how much risk that you are prepared to accept or don’t accept which is really the $64 billion question rather like guessing this weeks Lotto or Powerball numbers.

  20. David Mac 20

    It was like having teeth extracted.

    Wisdom tooth Shearer wrenched out. Incisor Cunliffe prised out of our jaw, Goff reefed out and ‘you little beauty’ Little relinquished the top tooth role. What a bloody heart wrenching sweat soaked journey it has been.

    The National party are just setting out on this journey.

  21. eco maori 21

    Good morning The Am Show Duncan your word about our business confidence are a bit over the top business will be fine they will have to get use to minor tweaks that Labour are doing to the business environment the economy will grow fine don’t stress there is more money in the economy under a Labour lead government .
    SME make over %97 of business in Aotearoa so its logical to support small exporters why should big business get all the toko these SME have more scope to grow ect.
    Pharmac is a good model that keep’s the cost of meds low so more people can get there meds at a lower cost. With out it OUR health cost would blow out and end up like others were common people have to sell the house when they break a legg I’m sure more people break a leg than get caner .
    Those big Drug companys would love for us to change Pharmac so they can bleed us dry did you see that Guy ramp up prices by %600 we don’t want to go there.
    Pharmac mite need a tweek here and there but not a total change Pharmac is a organization that works really well for common people and tangata whenua The capitalist believe that Pharmac should be scraped they want to bleed more mone from tangata this is one thing we did not change for the capitalist in the 80’s .
    What about that plant we have criminalized that helps cancer suffers with there pain we could be making laws that help with pain cheap as but we would rather import it at huge cost thats the law that needs logical attention .
    Ka kite ano P.S Paddy good work lately

  22. eco maori 22

    Many thanks to the Business that are reviewing there plastic wastes Ka pai that’s how Kiwi’s behave we were just lead in the wrong direction for a wee while Ka kite ano P.S ACC
    Accident Compensation Corporation is another organization the neo capitalist want to scrap this is a good model that’ we kept from the 80s that provides for the common tangata and the wealthy it just need’s a few tweeks

  23. eco maori 23

    There you go 17 a year old Kiwi Auckland teenager has been crowned the world’s Microsoft PowerPoint champion.

    Fifteen-year-old Tristan Mona, an Avondale College student, beat more than 760,000 competitors from over 100 countries in a timed and graded exam to recreate a presentation put together by Certiport and Microsoft.

    Since February he has been practising his PowerPoint skills 24 hours per week – around three hours per day, and undertaking 70 practice tests.

    Students enter the Microsoft Office Specialist World Championship to prove their master skills in Microsoft Word, Excel and PowerPoint. Ka pai mokopuna Kia kaha
    Ka kite ano link is below


  24. eco maori 24

    Many thanks to the Labour lead Coalition Goverment for putting more mone into electric vehicle transport Ka kite ano P.S the other outfit put all there eggs into carbon fools link below


  25. eco maori 25

    These people who have the silver spoon in there mouths don’t like the truth about how there ancestors were lieing cheats and they did not conquer OUR tangata whenua tipuna .
    They Lied once again making out there were a superior culture than they used this bullshit image they had caste of them selves to steal more land .
    Any one with a brain knows money is not as valuable as property .
    With inflation at 3% the way it works is your mone value goes down by 3% a year
    Mean while whenua goes up by 15% a year can any one spot the problem.
    Eco Maori would say keep your mone give my whenua back after all we are te tangata whenua with no whenua.Burn money its gone burn whenua it grows more crops next year
    Yes I see foreign people come to Aotearoa and in 20 years they are set for life and there children .The thing is they have diffrent life styls to us kiwis there food and life stile is cheap and they save all there mone there white m8 will hire them before they hire a maori
    he will give them a loan before Maori and the white person will be happy because the foreign person puts him up on a pedestal yes sir no sir there is no way this Maori is going to do that.
    Have your heard that old joke you have a Irish Chinese Dutch and Maori in a bar the cops arrive there is a scuffle between the Maori and the Dutch guys the police arrest the Maori chuck him in there car they go back into the bar and ask the Chinese and Irish men were is the bar man we want to ask him what charges we can lay on that thieving Maori .
    They say you got the bar man in your car it was the Dutch man you let go who we saw stealing drinks is that funny not when this kind of prejudice behavior keeps stuffing up your future A . Eco Maori see this all the time Ka kite ano
    Link below

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/105477615/do-treaty-of-waitangi-settlements-lead-to-better-social-outcomes-and-should-they P.S If the bank had given me that loan 30 years ago I had saved $20 k the house was $90 k its worth $600 k now me and my whano would have been set up to

  26. eco maori 26

    Good evening Newshub I’m not even going to waste my valuable time on gone brash.
    Yes Tova O Brian I agree with your opinion we all know the capitalist think they are always correct Eco thinks te mone does something strange to there brain.
    Thats the way Piri te tangata whenua will appreciate your apology that’s good move on now E hoa .
    Yaa Our Nurse have come to a agreement with the health boards that’s a positive for all kiwis.
    Ka kite ano P.S Ingrid it was fine and sunny this morning and next minute it rained on there heads some will know who that is for

  27. eco maori 27

    The Crowd Goes Wild James and Mulls I new Joseph Parker would hang his gloves up Ka pai.
    I remember when Phil Gule was running around the paddock playing Leauge back in
    the day
    Wairangi had a good yarn with Steve Kearney fingers crossed they can get past that Maori tane in Australia
    Good to see te whaine Rugby getting more promotions with mone and the media
    James you have to keep a sharp eye on Mulls Ka kite ano P,S he should know what Eco on about I see quite good

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