Open mike 06/09/2019

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, September 6th, 2019 - 201 comments
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For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step up to the mike …

201 comments on “Open mike 06/09/2019”

  1. Andre 1

    This morning's twitter goodness

  2. Andre 2

    'Murica does not deserve AOC. She is truly a goddess when she can wind up Steve King so much he goes and drinks toilet water thinking that's owning the libs.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/steve-king-alexandria-ocasio-cortez-toilet-water-video_n_5d70bd3be4b09bbc9ef9ff51

  3. Treetop 3

    The fear of exiting Brexit is about the loss to the person producing the product. Some people do well in business, some do not and will not regardless of who they are trading with.

    For the business owners/producers who need some help to transition, help needs to be given providing it is viable to do so.

    I am in favour of Brexit going forward as Britain has limited economic control with trading within the EU. This is evident due to how hard it is to exit from the EU.

     

    • Gabby 3.1

      You reckon the poms are entitled to more control than lesser nations do you treesy?

      • Treetop 3.1.1

        The British are entitled to have as much control as they can have with whom they trade with.

        When something is so hard to get out of, it usually is not good for you.

        I do not like the word you used to identify a British person.

        • McFlock 3.1.1.1

          It's not hard to get out of the EU.

          But it's cold outside, and warm inside, and the cat thought it wanted out, so now it's sitting in the open doorway while the European parliament is waiting for the british cat to make up it's damned mind. Sooner or later there will be a helpful foot up the arse in the form of "no extensions", and there'll be a soggy wee moggy wanting back inside.

          Oh, and arseholes will be shooting up border stations in Armagh again.

          • Treetop 3.1.1.1.1

            The European Parliament has made up its mind and it ain't changing it. May thought she could change the EU exit and gave up so resigned as prime minister. Boris is decisive he said he would rather die in a ditch than delay leaving. 

            See what happens when parliament resumes, election or no election.

             

            • McFlock 3.1.1.1.1.1

              The European Parliament is the stupid human holding the door open for the cat.

              Britain signed up to the method of departure when it signed up to join the EU. Now it wants to leave, it wants to renege on those terms, and actually wants the EU to do it a favour with trade deals..

              Reminds me of a drunk in a pub – calls the bouncer rude words when leaving, but then is all "aww mate, do me a favour" when he wants to take the drink with him.

        • Gabby 3.1.1.2

          There are lots of things I do not like treesy. It would be piss easy to get out of if everyone wanted to. 

        • OnceWasTim 3.1.1.3

          Is there an address I can send a bale of cotton wool to Precious?

          I'm doing my best to round up a few troops from around the colonies to ensure Borrie Jo, Little Jo and the Minister for the 18th Century are well protected and that their sight looking downwards is not impaired. Chin up old bean – we'll win out in the end doncha know – and unlike you, we'll FIGHT till the bitter end even if we do have to call in a few of those bloody "Yanks"

    • Wairua 3.2

      I disagree. A viable business competes on innovation and effectiveness to a much greater extent than geography, especially in this connected and mobile age. Brexit is about self-interest of entrenched elites on both sides of the channel.

      Schumpeter wrote about Creative destruction (German: schöpferische Zerstörung), sometimes known as Schumpeter's gale who derived it from the work of Karl Marx and popularized it as a theory of economic innovation and the business cycle.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_destruction

      One of the best sources of breaking news on Brexit can be – rather ironically – found below.

      https://www.conservativehome.com/frontpage/2019/09/newslinks-for-thursday-5th-september-2019.html

      • Wairua 3.2.1

        "More than 100,000 people have applied to register to vote since the start of the week, with young people making up the bulk of the surge against the backdrop of a momentous 48 hours in British politics.

        On Monday, 52,408 applications were submitted, according to government figures, followed by 64,485 on Tuesday.

        https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/04/more-than-100000-people-apply-register-vote-youth-uk-general-election

        The figure on both days was significantly above the typical number for weekday applications, which has averaged about 27,000 for the past month.

        Parties that have traditionally drawn support from younger people will be most encouraged by the figures, which show that 58% of applications submitted on the two days were from people aged 34 and under. Many of those signing up this week are understood to be students moving into new areas for the start of term, but experts pointed out that others may have put registering on the backburner.

        “It’s not surprising that there will be a lot of young people in these figures,” said Dr Toby James, a senior lecturer at the University of East Anglia who has authored reports on Britain’s low levels of voter registrations.

        “But I think that there is probably a tidal wave of applications to come. We’re all guilty of leaving things to the last minute.”

        Labour, in particular, has been having conversations in recent months with groups behind voter registration drives amid concerns about the limitations in systems or names “falling off” registers.

    • McFlock 3.3

      Trade aside, what about Northern Ireland?

      • Treetop 3.3.1

        Compensate for the loss (an agreed amount and time limit) and transition.

        Some people in Northern Ireland might actually be better off without Brexit.

         

        • McFlock 3.3.1.1

          What if the paramilitaries don't "agree"? Hard border or soft?

           

          • Treetop 3.3.1.1.1

            Hijacking democracy is the main problem with some British members of parliament.

            Have they not heard of one man or woman one vote.

            Brexit is like awaiting  major surgery. Get it over and done with.

            • McFlock 3.3.1.1.1.1

              Hey, if the british people (well, not Scotland but they'll probably do devolution pretty soon after this) want to commit to a bloody stupid decision which will criple their supply lines in the short term and fuck their trade structure in the long term simply because they can't admit they didn't understand the chaos their bloody stupid decision would cause, that's their business.

              But what about Northern Ireland? If there's a hard border with checkpoints, the IRA will come back. If there's a soft border people will shoot the cameras on one side and the unionists will screw the system at the other side. And things will escalate.

              How will you avert this scenario?

              • Treetop

                Scotland voted to stay in the UK parliament. The UK parliament had the mandate to leave the EU.

                It is about being no worse off financially and maximising profit. The EU can change terms and this would affect the UK even if there was no Brexit. The terms are not yet in play. 

                Patience is required to establish change.

                • McFlock

                  Copy that. Get it over and done with, then have patience.

                  Sorry, how will you stop Troubles 2: the Brexiting from happening? I keep missing the bit where you describe a border resolution that brings permanent peace to Northern Ireland.

                  • Treetop

                    I don't think there will be much difference in day to day life in Ireland. I feel that there is enough stability in Ireland for a Brexit to not become a flash point.

                    When NZ lamb and dairy got dumped in the mid 1970s by Britain NZ survived. Moyle actually got some new trading deals and look what Muldoon did to him in 1976.

                    There is a bit of irony as Fonterra might do well in Britain.

                    Ireland will survive with the assistance of the British parliament working closely with Irish MPs. 

                    • McFlock

                      Dairy? WTF has dairy got to do with anything?

                      The Troubles had nothing to do with trade, and everything about national identity. Hopefully the peace holds, but you're painfully optimistic if you're not worried about it.

                    • Treetop []

                      Britain was the main trading partner with NZ to sell dairy, beef and lamb. Once Britain joint the EU new trading partners needed to be found.

                      I know about the troubles IRA and British army. This has been stabilised. 

                      When it comes to national identity the Irish Parliament will need to be carefully listened to by the British Parliament.

                      Do you know if the Irish Parliament will be able to make trade deals without Britain's consent once the Irish are no longer part of the EU?

                      I am again optimistic that exiting the EU is the right thing to do.

                      Time will only tell. You never know what the EU will pull out in the future. Uncertain times globally for trade due to USA and China trade relations. I am not a fan of Trump but he is decisive on trade. Unemployment is the lowest it has been in 50 years in the USA. I do realise that people are needing to pay more for some products. This may only be short term.

                      I have not even mentioned patent rights/intellectual property when it comes to trade.

                      Britain and Ireland survived prior to joining the EU and they will survive once no longer an EU trading partner.

                    • McFlock

                      The Irish will be part of the EU.

                      The Northern Irish will not.

                      With Britain and Eire both being in the EU, everyone could pretend their own acceptable level of fantasy. The Republicans could travel all over Ireland without customs or barriers. The British were part of Britain, even if there was no border, just like the French and Belgians don't have border checkpoints any more, and they're still separate countries, right?.

                      Brexit fucks this happy compromise up.

                      The Northern Irish Assembly is already a big compromise by the Unionists and the Republicans. Having it negotiate a free trade and movement agreement with the EU (because Eire can't negotiate a separate agreement by itself) will be seen as further devolution from Britain.

                      That leads to bang-bangs.

                      On the flipside, a no-deal brexit means a hard border. Checkpoints in County Antrim again. That means the Republicans will view it as a step back towards Unionism.

                      That leads to bang-bangs.

                      Forget trade. How will you stop the Troubles from returning? Do you really expect bojo to "listen carefully"?

                    • Treetop []

                      An off shore check point.

                       

                    • McFlock

                      … even if practical, it puts the border checks between NI and the rest of the UK. The Unionists call that "devolution". They are adamant that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom.

                      But the idea of a border checkpoint in the middle of the Irish Sea is a joke, anyway.

                    • Treetop []

                      Something went very wrong when May spoke with the EU re Brexit situation affecting Northern Ireland. The EU need to take some responsibility for this. EU want the trade border outside of Ireland. Exactly what did EU say?

                      1. That Northern Ireland is part of Ireland trade system and cannot have separate trade deals and only trade with EU?

                      2. That Northern Ireland can trade with EU and others?

                      Northern Ireland and Ireland need to be able to trade with EU and others. Basically immunity from EU restrictions. A time limit of 5 years then a review.

                      Ireland is not overly populated and the EU could be compensated from Britain.

                      So risky to get out for Northern Ireland from EU. Some thinker needs to go back to what the deal was when Northern Ireland and Ireland signed up. International trading law might over ride EU decision in insisting a trading border in Ireland.

                      The Good Friday agreement has held for 20 years. This has been progressive.

                      Probably the Good Friday agreement did not have a scenario for the EU trade border if either part of Ireland left the EU.

                      A solution might be found in a Switzerland neutrality. International banking seems to function there.

                      Are there trade exceptions with Switzerland and the EU. Think Switzerland is part of the EU.

                      Maybe the EU might need to modernise to avoid a future scenario. 

                       

                       

                    • McFlock

                      Britain and Ireland joined the EEC in 1973. To put it in partisan terms (to make it clear), British-occupied Ireland has never had independent foreign or trade policy. Look up "Potato Famine" for more information.

                      Until 1973, independent Ireland and British-occupied Northern-Ireland had a hard border, the result of the 1922 independence treaty. While that unified trade, the British were firmly in control of NI from London. The IRA & co had a problem with this, so the British sent in the Paras who shot some joy-riders, and everything went to shit for twenty years.

                      After twenty years of murders, bombings, bad movies, depressing but good movies, and okay music, the Good Friday accords fuzzed up the border and created the Northern Irish Assembly.

                      But if the Republic of Ireland and the United Kindom are under different trade rules, with no border between the two there will be massive amounts of smuggling both ways. The Irish won't get kicked out of the EU, and the Unionists won't let NI be separated from the UK. But if the border gets re-established anywhere, someone with thirty year old semtex will be angry.

                      This isn't an EU problem. It's a problem caused by the fuckers who put "325 million pounds a week" on the side of a bus rather than actually tell the truth.

                       

                    • Treetop []

                      What about the dual citizenship in Northern Ireland.

                      The EU need to think about that.

                      When are you Irish and when are you British when it comes to trade?

                    • McFlock

                      No, they don't.

                      If an Irish passport holder needs to cross into Ireland, no worries. A British person would need to satisfy the requirements of any other foreigner entering the EU.

                      If an Irish person wants to take goods from Belfast to Dublin, they pay EU duties. UK duties the other way. Same as anyone else.

                      This is a British problem of English construction. They chose it, but without thinking about how to solve it.

                    • Treetop []

                      I thought if you held a Irish British passport that you could travel to any of the 27 EU countries as well travel between Britain and Ireland. 

                      I will check if just to Northern Ireland or the whole of Ireland. Probably to the whole of Ireland as no border.

                      Previously I saw something about being born in Republic of Ireland or if parents or grandparents were born there.

                    • McFlock

                      At the moment anyone born in NI can move throught the EU, including England and Ireland.

                      After Brexit, this will devolve into the bounds of the Common Travel Area. So Dubliners can go to Manchester, Mancunians to Dublin, etc. This doesn't include the flow of goods, though. So the problem is if Polish goods go to Ireland and are then on-sold to Belfast and then forwarded to Manchester, at what point are duties paid to Britain and how is it detected? And what about goods travelling the opposite direction?

                      And NI is just one issue:

                      what about additional customs checks on cross-channel cargos? How will that affect the logistics chains of factories that run so lean they have to shut the production lines if they don't get replenishment every three hours? What about medications that can't be stockpiled because of their narrow expiry dates, but with no trade deals with nations that can supply them?

                      All of these factors should have been considered during the referendum, but people were lied to by sociopaths who didn't want to be subjected to EU tax or anti-money-laundering laws.

                      Brexit is the biggest tax dodge in history.

                    • Treetop []

                      Just to wrap up on this thread for me.

                      DUP in Northern Ireland want to Brexit but population of Northern Ireland did not.

                      May back stop idea was unrealistic and time consuming. EU were unwise to settle with May on a Brexit date until the trade border with Britain and any EU trader with Britain was settled.

                      So now time has run out to re negotiate. EU became so stubborn and would not renegotiate. 

                      EU needs to renegotiate and Johnson needs to put Brexit date to January.

                       

                       

                       

                       

                    • McFlock

                      The U in DUP stands for "Unionist".

                      They want a hard border on the county line, not the coast. Brexit is a way to get that.

                       

                      EU doesn't need to do a damned thing. It's already negotiated one agreement and then agreed to two extensions because Britain is being bloody stupid. 

                    • Treetop []

                      I know I said my last on the thread.

                      What about a different date for Northern Ireland to leave the EU?

                      And still be able to trade under any new trade condition s with Britain. Basically dual trading. Britain could pay a tax/levy to EU.

                      What is population of Northern Ireland?

                    • McFlock

                      Very roughly speaking, that's the "Irish backstop" May agreed with the EU, but didn't get through parliament: that the UK and EU stay in a single customs union (except fish: cf: "Cod War") until they figure out what to do.

                      The bojo cons and the DUP oppose this solution. Bojo cons because they have fantasies about NZ beef and free trade with the USA, DUP because they see it as a concession that Northern Ireland is partly joined to Ireland, not England.

                      With the letter of withdrawal sent to the EU, Britain is on its way out. Because the Irish Backstop scuppered Britain ratifying the post-EU-membership agreement, it's currently going to be a no-deal brexit with hard borders on the county line.

            • greywarshark 3.3.1.1.1.2

              Treetop  – Major surgery?   Get it over and done with.   If someone's heart is removed, they need a working replacement to help them survive while another one is being fitted.    And that had better work when the mechanical one is taken away. 

              And probably a lot of morphine.    The patient might become a drug addict while trying to cope with the trauma.

              Not something to rush into with a 'light heart'.

              • Treetop

                Anticipation can cause overwhelming anxiety and not change the outcome. British voters voted to leave.

                There are going to be interim measures when transitioning. No one knows the fine detail yet.

                Like I said above the Good Friday agreement has held for 20 years and is progressive. 

                It would be interesting to know what dooms day thinking was said back then regarding the agreement.

                October 17 Johnson is to attend EU exit talks. The EU better be thinking hard about not having a trade border in Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland. Population is 4.88 million. 

                I have nothing further to add.

  4. (bernard hickey has covered things quite adroitly..)

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/@pro/2019/09/05/791512/young-renters-just-got-double-toasted#

    (excerpt..)

    'Any remaining hopes that an enlightened government would engineer a supply shock to drive home prices down to improve affordability for both renters and first home buyers has just evaporated, if it ever existed to start with.

    New Housing Minister Megan Woods did her best on Wednesday to put a brave face on what was easily the worst day politically in this second Labour-led Government post-MMP. Labour deployed Green Co-Leader Marama Davidson and the Green's rent-to-own plan to try to distract from the complete capitulation of abandoning the 100,000 over 10 years target.

    It also tried to dress the broken promise by making it easier to use more KiwiSaver money for home deposits and to be able to borrow more to buy a first home.

    Neither will sweeten this dead rat much. It's more of a rotting and hairy cat.'..

     

    • A 4.1

      It looks bad but I still believe we have an over supply (ref Joe Wilkes, DFA channel commentary about NZ on YT).  We are one GFC 2.0 away from seeing that.

      By failing they will lessen our housing market demise.

      • phillip ure 4.1.1

        oh..i am still expecting a housing price collapse..

        (that is a separate/different issue..)

        and maybe over-supply' means over-priced..?

        then of course there is the quality of our existing housing stock – which is pretty crap…

        'tis a complex issue..

         

        • SHG 4.1.1.1

          Hickey's general thesis suggests that a house-price collapse will be a DISASTER for lower-income earners and young people. Summary:

          Baby Boomers own all the property.

          Baby Boomers participate in elections far more than young people.

          Ergo

          The issues that win elections are those that favour the people that already own all the property.

          If a house-price collapse happens, the Baby Boomers will demand government action to protect their investments. And they'll get it, no matter the collateral damage to renters, low-wage workers, young people, etc.

          • phillip ure 4.1.1.1.1

            i understand that boomers vote more than the young..

            but i also think that cd be about to change –

            as the urgencies of the climate-change – that will effect them the most – becomes more and more..

            in the last 48 hrs there has been the biggest ever surge of young (under 33) voters registering to vote for the first time – in britain…and of course brexit is help driving that..

            but the fast-rising extinction rebellion also argues for the power the young have in their hands – at the ballot box..

            so for those reasons – i think that young don't vote assumption could soon become passe..

            and i look forward to that…

            • In Vino 4.1.1.1.1.1

              My view of the history of great depressions is that normally the less well-off get hammered and forced into selling off everything, while the ultra-rich go around cherry-picking and buying up everything they like at bargain basement prices.

              A housing price collapse will probably result in lower private ownership of houses, and Corporates renting out more of them.

          • KJT 4.1.1.1.2

            Actually somewhat South of 60% of boomers own their own home. Many with mortgages. Down from the 80%plus in the previous generation who retired with mortgage free houses.

            Then there are the large number of boomers who are ending up with a mortgage, on retirement, to help their kids into houses.

            Nearly half of boomers do not have a house, let alone housing "investments.

    • Dukeofurl 4.2

      Failing ?

      Thats not what the polls have said a month or so back. Its almost 2 to one in favour.

      '"Do you think the Government should continue with the KiwiBuild scheme?"

      Sixty per cent said yes, the Government should keep going, while 34 per cent said no

      https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/latest-kiwibuild-development-revealed-auckland-poll-shows-kiwis-still-back-concept

      • Climaction 4.2.1

        poll driven government was what the last government did and achieved nothing in housing…? 

         

        • Dukeofurl 4.2.1.1

          Poll Driven ?  Kiwibuild  in various guises but essentially as state builds for  owners has been around  as Labour party policy since about 2014.

          The polls point out that the public loves kiwibuild in spite of its setbacks and  Judith Collins  doesnt have as much influence  as she might think.

          She has  plenty here who parrot her talking points.

          Hickey  has hardly any value as a commentator on housing as he 'knows nothing'

           

      • Puckish Rogue 4.2.2

        Given that Kiwibuild was touted as the panacea for all housing ills in NZ Im surprised only 60% said yes

        • marty mars 4.2.2.1

          "Given that Kiwibuild was touted as the panacea for all housing ills in NZ"

          That is bullshit – this was a solution that was attempted – you are just stirring the muck to get a thrill like a low down gnat always does.

           

            • marty mars 4.2.2.1.1.1

              Funny all those inventions over the years based on attempts to find solutions again and again after getting it wrong again and again. The gnat lovers would give up after one or two attempts and run away yapping – meanwhile people that are serious keep on trying. An even funnier thing is that imo many of the inventors and worker outerers in the past were conservative – that was the ethos. Not the quick jammy fix that the gnational party prefers with it's simpleton leader and lackey supporters. Not the party of deep thinkers anymore the gnats, that's for sure.

              • Puckish Rogue

                'Ardern also pointed out that while the government had fallen well short of its initial 100,000 homes target, it was performing “much better” in relation to its target of 100,000 measles cases.'

                • marty mars

                  yes I know you get your points from a comedy account, after all you be a crasher collins devotee lol oh dear what a pity

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    I was going to get my comedy points from Kiwibuild but I figure its already gone beyond a joke

                    • Dukeofurl

                      60% of those polled supported it.

                      Judith isnt getting traction with her talking points…oh dear.

                      Is she spending too much time on the  fund raising circuit ?

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Of course they want a policy of subsidised housing to keep going.

                      "Hello first home buyer, would you like a brand new home as your first home, you do well we'll make it cheaper for you"

                      I'm surprised more people didn't want it to continue but imagine if the question asked was something like: "do you think Labour will be able to build 100 000 homes in ten year"

                  • Hongi Ika

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                    Puck's is still madly in love with Judith.

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                     

                • Gabby

                  Well it's one way of getting back the herd immunity puckers.

        • bwaghorni 4.2.2.2

          The fact that people want then to carry on with kiwibuild proves most kiwis see a need for government intervention and despite labours troubles so far the are willing support their attempts to get it right . 

          If at first you dont succeed try again is far fucking better than anything the fuckwit nats can come up with.

          • marty mars 4.2.2.2.1

            yep I agree bwaghorni 

          • Puckish Rogue 4.2.2.2.2

            Incorrect. Labours flagship policy, the policy used to discredit National, the policy that got Labour into power was not going to fail.

            When critics pointed out it wouldnt work Labour said it would, Twyford insulted Treasury because they said it wouldnt work, Labour convinced enough people it would work, Jacinda was happy to pose for photos so no "If at first you dont succeed try again is far fucking better than anything the fuckwit nats can come up with." is simply not good enough

            • Dukeofurl 4.2.2.2.2.1

              How well did Nationals  cycle ways program work out and the 'big boost ' to the economy and 1000s of new jobs….. oh you like everyone else have forgotten

              Just like John Keys promise – no matter what AND dont believe the naysayers- that makes it a double promise to bring the Pike River miners out that was make  ( and recorded 11 months after the disaster)

              • Puckish Rogue

                Nationals not in power (if you hadn't noticed) and Kiwibuild was one of, if not the biggest, reasons that Labour got elected and the cycleway certainly wasn't

                This is a monumental cock up of Twyford-like proportions and all you've got is 'National cycleways'

                But hey as long as its coming from Labour is all good right

                • Wensleydale

                  Labour do some stupid stuff for which they should be rightly bagged. But at least they do stuff. National spent most of their time arguing semantics in regard to whether the housing crisis was an actual crisis rather than merely a challenge. Talk about fiddling while Rome burns.

                  I'd like to think not everyone here is so blinded by partisan loyalty they're prepared to ignore Labour's failings. But let's be honest, Pucky. National have never been the party of the less fortunate. They'll make a valiant attempt to portray themselves as such every now and then, but scratch the surface and you'll find the usual callous indifference which tends to be their stock-in-trade. Paula Bennett's shameful antics around Te Puea Marae are adequate testimony. National essentially let the wound fester until it erupted in a geyser of pus and maggots, and now the current government is attempting clean up the mess while National jeer and throw rocks from the Opposition benches.

                  National have zero moral high-ground on this. If anything, they should be standing in a smoking crater. 

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    Ok so did Labour know they couldn't meet their targets but went ahead with it anyway which means they deliberately lied to NZ

                    or did they really think they could meet the targets which makes them delusional

                    or could they really have met the targets but didn't which makes them incompetent

                    In regards to Kiwibuild Labour are either liars, delusional or incompetent

                    Did I miss anything out?

                • Hongi Ika

                  Labour are just getting organised they will make real progress in their second and third terms in Government IMHO ?

              • @ d of f..

                two yrs in – the time for blaming the (undoubtedly guilty) tories for now is past…eh..?

            • Stuart Munro. 4.2.2.2.2.2

              National discredited itself – that's what happens when for seigneurial reasons you put deadwood like Nick Smith in charge of anything. Even they were too ashamed to call him housing minister in the end.

              As for kiwibuild failing, it's like Marengo – Napoleon had lost the battle by 14:00 and won it back by 18:00. Housing is a critical issue and it must be built – giving up like the Gnats did, while it reflects Nick's actual capacity, cannot get the job done.

              • Puckish Rogue

                Can you let us know the official date when National stops getting blamed for Labours failings cheers

                • mac1

                  I think it'll take 'nine long years' and comcomitant jeers.

                  Seriously though, it would just take as long as the calculated cost of the shortfall in expenditure over those nine years on things that needed expenditure, less the surplus revenue now available to the government minus the willingness of the electorate to apportion blame upon that government of nine long years.

                  Whichever comes first.

                  Less the number of dead cats strewn upon the table, global crises, natural disasters, forest fires, possible re-elections of Boris and Donald, China, the cost of fossil fuel and who won the World Cup.

                  Not necessarily in that order.

                  I hope that helps.

                  Oh, and whether Judith makes it or not, or should I say, when?

                • Stuart Munro.

                  Housing isn't their screw up yet – though it's true they should have done more about it under Clark. If the Gnats had not been utterly incompetent in that portfolio it would be a different story, but actually it's kind of hard to put your finger on a Gnat area of responsibility where a fairly ineffectual effort doesn't represent a vast improvement – they were rubbish – and that is the baseline against which Coalition performance is measured.

        • Dukeofurl 4.2.2.3

          Thats wrong too.

          Havent you heard of the  Ramped up State House builds

          havent you heard of the extended Bright line to catch the speculators and flippers

          havent you heard of the Foreign buyers ban

          havent you heard of the stand alone  Ministry of Housing and Urban development.

          Kiwibuild was soley to fix the imbalance   at the value end  of the new builds where they had  become only 5% of the volume.

           

           

          • Puckish Rogue 4.2.2.3.1

            That maybe what Kiwibuild was supposed to be but the message to the people was different.

            Basically Labour over promised and under delivered, this would never have happened until Helen Clark so now now Jacinda has to own her, Twyfords and Labours failure over this

            • Ed1 4.2.2.3.1.1

              I suspect what Kiwibuild was to many varies greatly. Certainly it covered the "housing problems" that were being ignored, but the scalpel of the media and opposition, and possibly insufficient time on setting out its scope, meant that it became just a small part of the "housing problem". I believe priority was rightly given to social housing, to reducing the number in motels and on waiting lists, and these do not seem to be the issues they used to be, although they are not yet totally resolved. That part of the housing problem that affected new home buyers is a problem that is a total market problem; it will not be resolved quickly, but it is not as urgent as reversing the reduction in social housing services. The number I would like to see measured is how many New Zealanders the government has assisted into some form of 'satisfactory' housing, rather than emergency housing.  

              As for the market failure of the building sector, we have had a serious deterioration in that industry over the term of the Nat-led government; a reliance on imported labour, a reduction in training and youth employment, fragmented small companies that had an incentive to go out of business, matched with too few trading in product supply, and starved local authorities who struggled with infrastructure and planning/ approvals. Leaky building have not helped either.

              So yes there was a marketing failure by the government, but I do not think it is clear whether there is any significant failure otherwise. In effect the media and opposition have won the propaganda / lying war, with the only real winners those who are still able to exploit rental shortages . . .. 

      • phillip ure 4.2.3

        @ d of f…

        being a tad clever with that poll you keep trotting out there from (in yr words)'a month or so ago'..

        it was published on the 11th june – three months ago..

        and the polling likely done over the month preceeding that..?

        that gets us to polling data 4 months old – and pretty much useless in this post-canning kiwibuild moment..

        donchareckon..?

        kinda grasping at any straw floating by there..d of j..?

        • Dukeofurl 4.2.3.1

          What was new over the last few months ?

          Nothing until last week.

          The numbers  who are aligned with your   ideas was 34% !

          What exactly is your land development or construction expertise or knowledge of even planing.

          Im pretty sure you dont have the foggiest and wouldnt  know your bracing wall from your elbow.

          • phillip ure 4.2.3.1.1

            'arr – arr – i have 'ammered the odd nail – seen the odd bracing wall – and can remember once helping to build a nickel-refinery – and i do have some knowledge of ‘planing’ – i can make my wood smooth – does that count..?'

            (said in lancashire accent..)

            heh..!..but really – what the fuck has that got to do with anything here..?

            you are getting desperate – aren't you..(not waving – flailing..heh..!)

            and plse don't try selling some meme that i am/was anti-kiwibuild..

            my anger at the failures is from disappointment – not opposition too..mm-kay..?

    • Herodotus 4.3

      If the reset was really important our PM would have been present, like many well educated leaders appear to follow … good news be associated with the release, bad news allow others to be seen. Thus protecting the brand. 

  5. (and in some good news..a cool open-source off-grid solar-freezer..woo-hoo..!)

    https://boingboing.net/2019/09/05/frozen-sunshine.html

    'it uses a standard chest freezer with added thermal mass, a simple controller, and a photovoltaic panel that effectively stores sunshine as coldness, obviating the need for expensive backup batteries.

    The Fridge0 is an advance on traditional off-grid 12v solar fridges that assume that solar panels are expensive and inefficient; by exploiting modern PV technology,

    Hess says "A kilowatt of solar panels provides enough power to run a conventional fridge on even most cloudy days, and costs less than a commercial offgrid fridge."

    • Agora 5.1

      "A kilowatt of solar panels provides enough power to run a conventional fridge on even most cloudy days, and costs less than a commercial offgrid fridge."

      What does that amount to .. the whole roof ?

      • phillip ure 5.1.1

        don't have the tech-knowledge to answer that..

        but they do mention using 'advances in photovolteic tech'…and that it is much cheaper than usual set-ups.

        so i d presume not 'the whole roof'..

        did you read the links…?..they should answer yr questions..

         

      • Andre 5.1.2

        Depending on the efficiency of the panels, between 4 and 10 sq m of panels will give you 1 kW peak output.

        Given a fridge-freezer or chest freezer only draws around  150W or less when running, I presume putting in 1 kW of panels is so they can run even on really dark cloudy days.

        Dunno if they've got anything fancier for their thermal mass than just a jug filled with a 30% propylene glycol solution that freezes around -15 degrees C.That's all a distant rellie needed 25 years ago for their off-grid set-up.

        • Dukeofurl 5.1.2.1

          Frequency of the power supply is important too – so an inverter is required to convert  solar DC to AC – unless you have a DC fridge.

          The 150W  'while running' is  about right , but as they  stop and start often ,  you will draw much more  for a few secs to spin up the compressor- could be the the 1Kw. 

          • Andre 5.1.2.1.1

            The article talks about having a battery to manage shutting it off. That would be useful to manage the startup surge, as well as managing the power on cloudy days if the output of the panels is marginal so it's not trying to kick on and off all the time. Seems to me it would make more sense to just invest in a few more batteries to take advantage of all the engineering and economies of scale for making conventional off-grid systems and be done with it.

      • gsays 5.1.3

        1kw of panels is approx 8.5 square metres.

    • ianmac 5.2

      Recently I read of taking a freezer, changing the thermostat to operate around 4+ degrees, and using it as the household fridge. Toploaders loose less chill. Stay cold longer. Better insulated. Standard fridge use up to 2Kw per day. The freezer/fridge use less than 1kw per day. (I once made a built-in top loading chilly bin for a boat I built, with 4inch insulation, and by putting in frozen goods it would stay cool enough for 5-7 days.)

      • phillip ure 5.2.1

        cool..!..thanks for than info…

      • Dukeofurl 5.2.2

        A combined fridge freezer like my upright LG 298 litre has a single source of cooling for the unit, the  cold air is circulated to each compartment to maintain the temp – it has both a freezer temp adjustment outside, 5 levels ( with vacation and quick freeze settings)  and  a fridge adjustment inside.

        Sounds like its easier to get a modern  unit – even second hand –  and reduce your power consumption that way.  

         

    • A 5.3

      That is cool.  Lol

      Anything that makes us more independent of the grid, the better. 

      EcoFlow DELTA,  the world's strongest battery-powered generator just launched on Kickstarter.  Don't think EF ships to NZ yet.  I tried the end of last year to buy their stuff and couldn't 🙁

      • Dukeofurl 5.3.1

        Doesnt NZ post have a scheme where they have a contact point in US who then on-ships to NZ- all as a seamless service

        https://www.nzpost.co.nz/tools/youshop

        • alwyn 5.3.1.1

          Your link includes the following statement

          "International postage excludes any GST, duty and customs clearance costs that may be payable on arrival in New Zealand.".

          The current Government are insisting that companies like Amazon should collect GST due on things they ship to New Zealand and remit the taxes to the New Zealand Government.

          Why is a Government owned organisation like New Zealand Post already doing that?

          • Dukeofurl 5.3.1.1.1

            They are just the shippers , Amazon are the seller who know what the item is and its worth.

            The Amazon tax came in  two forms , the first was for 'online type services and  subscriptions' where there wasnt a physical shipping, just dowmloads etc.

            The later one was the $400 'exemption' for GST for  imported physical items for personal use.

            That last rule means  sellers with more than $60k annual sales to NZ are required to 'register and collect the tax' .

            NZ Post seems to be just following the rules, not that Ive  used  it are current with ALL the details

  6. esoteric pineapples 6

    Roger Waters Performs ‘Wish You Were Here’ in Assange’s Support in London

    This is worth watching – actually introduction by John Pilger starts at almost six minutes in. Powerful words from him, as well as Roger Waters



  7. marama davidson was impressive on rent-to-own etc on nat-red this morn…

    she was also urging the building of many state houses…

  8. greywarshark 8

    Something urgent for Labour to attend to – the way that citizens who have difficulties in the wonderful free market neolib system are being treated in a shocking manner.
    https://www.cpag.org.nz/assets/Publications/4-0%2031964%20Kathryn's%20Story.pdf

    A Child Poverty Action Group Background Paper

    Kathryn’s Story

    How the Government spent well over $100,000 and 15 years pursuing a chronically-ill beneficiary mother for a debt she should not have.

    By Catriona MacLennan

    While it was over twenty years ago when she was alleged to have fraudulently obtained a benefit, this case has a history that starts well before that. The cycle of poverty and abuse began, as so often is the case, in her own childhood. It is fair to say that the way she has been treated in the judicial process, both the criminal conviction, her imprisonment, and the subsequent pursuit for reparations has been extremely damaging for her children and compounded her own Post–Traumatic Stress Disorder arising from her previous traumatic experiences. The NZ Treasury has recently shown that poor outcomes for children by the time they are young adults are highly correlated with having “a finding of abuse or neglect, time spent in care of child protection services; most of their lifetime supported by benefits; a parent who has received a community or custodial sentence; a mother who has no formal qualifications.” NZ Treasury 2016.

    https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/09/06/cpag-mourns-passing-of-kathryn-and-calls-for-a-more-just-welfare-system/

    • gsays 8.1

      Contrast those circumstances and outcome with Southern Repsonse's deceitful actions attempting to deny a couple $200,000.

       

  9. greywarshark 9

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-49601320

    Parliament is "falling apart before our eyes" thanks to Brexit, one of the architects of the Good Friday Agreement has said.

    Seamus Mallon, former NI (Northern Ireland) deputy first minister, described Boris Johnson as a "carpetbagger", which he defined as someone without principles….

    Mr Mallon was deputy first minister from 1998 to 2001.

    He is considered to be one of the key negotiators of the 1998 Good Friday Agreement.

    "The lunacy of putting a referendum in Britain in relation to trying to unite the Tory party was a monumental mistake, and they have staggered from one mistake after another," Mr Mallon told BBC News NI, on the margins of the Kennedy Summer School in County Wexford.

    "And this is the mother of parliaments. This is the home of democratic political process and it is falling apart before our eyes, and it is doing it in such a way that a carpetbagger like Boris Johnson is now leading it as prime minister."

     

    Recalcitrant Boorish.

    Boris Johnson has said he would "rather be dead in a ditch" than ask the EU to delay Brexit beyond 31 October.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49598118

    • Dukeofurl 9.1

      Falling apart ?

      Its called democracy .

      he should talk about how  democracy as defined in the GFA about the Northern Ireland Assembly has completely collapsed. Its zero, zilich , nada gone.

      As an aside I did a word search on the GFA agreement,  and the border  is hardly mentioned at all.

      Free travel  ( and residency) for Irish citizens through out the entire UK came in 1922

    • Gabby 9.2

      There's something Blobbyjobby and I agree on. I'd rather he was dead in a ditch too.

  10. marty mars 10

    Had this gem come up on my feed – worth watching if you need a reminder



     

     

    • greywarshark 10.1

      Never ask that person who changes their mind, to do or have anything again. Don't have anything to do with them.  They are losers!    And this vid goes on for too long.   Make the point faster – remember the ten second attention span that is talked about today.    It is otherwise a greeaaat video.    (That's really meant to be 'great', just got too long.)

      • marty mars 10.1.1

        I don’t like your comment much.
        Not sure what's going on with you at the moment – hope it gets better for you.

        • greywarshark 10.1.1.1

          Goodness marty mars – I am fine but just trying to keep thinking not becoming a reactive paper towel sucking up every idea that is presented in a conformist way to the in-meme.  How about you?

          • marty mars 10.1.1.1.1

            well that meme was not designed for a 70 year old women (feel free to show to family and friends for their men if you want) – so maybe just have a wee think…

        • The Al1en 10.1.1.2

          Agreed! That's another horrible comment. A trend emerges.

          If the person who said yes to sex, but then changes their mind for whatever reason, they're a loser and you shouldn't go near them again. Wow.

          So how would that work in a marriage situation? Blank your partner for ever or get divorced?

      • Jimmy 10.1.2

        Calm down and go make yourself a cup of tea.

        • greywarshark 10.1.2.1

          Try thinking Jimmy instead of short reactive jabs of no particular value to people, except to your satisfaction that you can read and write.

      • Brigid 10.1.3

        A person who changes their mind is a looser?

        It's an excellent video and it goes for as long as it does because some people just cannot accept every individual has the right to any decision they choose to make and then change their mind if they so wish.

        Sounds to me like that video touched a rather raw nerve with you Greywarshark and that maybe it should have gone on for another 3 days before you actually understood and accepted the point it was making.

      • McFlock 10.1.4

        For tea or sex, that's a "fail: safe" approach. If someone regards that approach as reasonable regardless of circumstance,  they're probably not really equipped to safely offer consensual tea or sex in the first place, so for them it is actually a reasonable approach.

        Whereas the "fail: deadly" approach is that someone who doesn't particularly understand consent still tries to have sex with other people, or make them drink tea.

  11. Wayne 11

    I can only presume that the Fresh Water Discussion Document is intended only to be Labour’s opening gambit. Parker must know a fair bit of it will not be acceptable to the farming community or to the National Party. Legislation of this nature has to be sustainable across successive governments, it can’t be just acceptable to the party in power. 

    There will be a lot of support including within the farming community for more planting on stream margins, wider margins, and much stronger protection for wetlands. Probably with subsidies to help pay for it.

    There will be major opposition to getting resource consents for farming changes or increased production. I predict that won’t survive consultation. I reckon NZF will oppose, as will National. If it is passed into law with NZF support, then I am certain such a requirement will be repealed by the next National government.

    The more interesting discussion will be around monitoring water quality on farms. There  is a very good case for it, with the intention of doing things to improve water quality. I reckon this will happen, but not with a whole raft of government inspectors. More likely a partnership with Dairy NZ.

    • Pat 11.1

      If you really believe that then I fear you are 10 years out of date….with dairy (esp) under financial pressures unrelated the rural sector and banks will see the opportunity to use this to hedge future income streams (with gov assistance) and the noise from the likes of FF spokespersons will be largely disregarded.

      National may well find they have backed a loser if they try to push back too hard….the dairy sector growth has been milked dry, time for ‘the next big thing’

    • marty mars 11.2

      yep some self interested and selfish farmers oppose water quality controls – pity not enough decent caring farmers are speaking up against their destructive brethren – still early days yet and the tide is turning against farming practices that are hurting the environment and communities.

    • Dukeofurl 11.3

      Resource consent for some farming activities is already here.

      https://www.horizons.govt.nz/HRC/media/Media/Consent/Guide-for-applying-for-intensive-farming-consent.pdf?ext=.pdf

      And in places like the central north island lakes  I think it covers all farming

      https://www.waikatoregion.govt.nz/Community/Your-community/For-Farmers/Taupo/Nitrogen-management-in-the-Lake-Taupo-catchment/

      getting your information about Government policies from Hosking can only lead to egg on face Wayne

    • Just filing away for future reference the admission that, when it comes to measures to improve NZ's freshwater quality, "a fair bit of it will not be acceptable to the farming community or to the National Party."

      I did know that already, of course, but it's nice to have someone involved in the National Party state it so explicitly.

      • Wayne 11.4.1

        PM

        Shock, horror! Farmers and National don’t accept every single policy point that Labour proposes. Who would have guessed? They must be really bad to think like that.

         

        • Stuart Munro. 11.4.1.1

          Correlation is not causation: they are incredibly bad, but they were bad even before they took up shitting in our water.

        • phillip ure 11.4.1.2

          no wayne – 'shock/horror' at national quite happy to allow the continued befouling of our environment/world..

          and this at the behest of the biggest leeches – since forever ('it's rained – give us some money..!..we are the backbone of the economy – it hasn't rained – give us some more money..!..we are the backbone of the economy!' – repeat ad nauseum)

          i think we are all sick of that schtick..eh wayne..?

          so if you want to wave yr arms and say 'i'm/national is with them..!'..

          why don't you do that – and we'll see how that goes down with an increasingly angry/impatient rest of us..eh..?

          and if you can't see/feel that growing anger/impatience – wayne – at the excuses/behaviour/whining.polluting of the (fast going down the gurgler) dairy industry..

          you clearly have all the political nous of a doorknob..

          eh wayne..?

          • Wayne 11.4.1.2.1

            If you actually read my initial comment, I do think more needs to be done (wider stream margins, more planting, preserving wetlands, better monitoring, and other things) I support a fair amount in the discussion document. A lot of it is good. 

            But that doesn’t mean I and others have to agree with everything in it. And just because farmers don’t agree with everything doesn’t automatically make them the “ biggest leeches – since forever”. 

            The left, or at least a fair part of it, automatically thinking of farmers that way will result in a much bigger divide than currently exists. And not a way to get constructive dialogue.

            • Robert Guyton 11.4.1.2.1.1

              Wayne: have you read, "The Honorable Nick Smith…and me – the art of water politics" by Sam Mahon?

              You should. I hope you will and when you do, would you care to comment here?

              Thanks.

              Robert

               

              • lprent

                Hey, he isn’t responsible for Nick Smith. It is like saying that I’m responsible for John Tamihere because he used to be a sort of a progressive and a Labour MP. Who knew that they were kind of a dickheads?

                Of course getting rid of John Tamihere appears to have been a whole easier for Labour it is has been for National to cast off their waste.

                • Stuart Munro.

                  Isn't there a convention of collective responsibility? In which case Wayne was indeed responsible for Nick Smith; if he wasn't up to snuff (and he ain't) it was Wayne's job, among others, to get rid of him.

                • Robert Guyton

                  I didn't for a moment expect Wayne to take responsibility for Nick Smith. I merely wanted to know his view on the story the book tells. It's a great read.

            • phillip ure 11.4.1.2.1.2

              you seem to be missing quite a bit of the big-picture there wayne..

              dairy/meat-extraction industries are going down the gurgler..

              aside from the other problem of a global-glut..

              there is the rise of plant-based dairy/meat..

              and what nobody is talking about..the increased climate-change pressures on exporting our dairy/flesh to the other side of the planet..

              we are going to have to become more inward looking/self-sufficient..

              these will be our new priorities..

        • Psycho Milt 11.4.1.3

          Farmers and National don’t accept every single policy point that Labour proposes.

          More specifically, they don't accept any policy point that would significantly improve NZ's freshwater quality – those are the bits that "will not be acceptable to the farming community or to the National Party." If that weren't the case, farmers and National would be willing to give a fair hearing to proposals beyond doing a bit more planting along river banks.

    • bwaghorn 11.5

      You do realise Canterbury wouldnt be in this mess of you and you cronies hadn't sacked the democratically elected board ecan so you could sugar fuel the economy.  

      • Robert Guyton 11.5.1

        bwaghorn – have you read the Sam Mahon story?

        It's a cracker. Required reading, I reckon.

    • Gabby 11.6

      I reckon confiscating the surplus cows on poosy farms could be a go wayknee. Whatchoo reckon?

    • Chris T 11.7

      Don't think it is meant to go through.

      Like the trial school lunches it is just something that sounds big popped either side of the KiwiBuild fiasco to try to take the focus off what a complete hash it is.

      Seems to be working if you listen to talkback

      • Robert Guyton 11.7.1

        I believe David Parker is entirely sincere in his intentions and statements.

        • Ian 11.7.1.1

          I believe Robert Mugabe was entirely sincere in his intentions and statements.

        • Pat 11.7.1.2

          a question on the back of that….do you think Parker has the interests of the environment at heart?

           

           

          • Robert Guyton 11.7.1.2.1

            Ab

            So

            Lutely!

            • Pat 11.7.1.2.1.1

              and yet his favourite word is 'growth'…go figure

              • Robert Guyton

                Trees grow. Are you sure you've explored his meaning thoroughly?

                • Pat

                  I used to think hed make a great Labour Party leader but the more I read of his comments in the media the more I decided he is neoliberal at heart…might be a result of when he was educated, who knows…. I suspect he would have been in his happy place in a Douglas cabinet…and thats saying something

                  • Robert Guyton

                    I've met him a few times and like his boldness. I agree he's more right than I am, but I reckon he feels the urgency of environmental degradation keenly and is making a last-ditch stand. It's now or never, he seems to have learned and resolved. In my personal experience.

          • Ian 11.7.1.2.2

            Parker came to a farmers meeting at Ashburton before the last election and showed his true colours. Questioned on  his intentions regarding the ill intentioned water tax it was obvious that the environment was secondary to putting farmers out of business.

            • Pat 11.7.1.2.2.1

              Am well aware of Parkers reputation in rural sector…wasnt where I was looking…hes an obviously intelligent guy (who isnt beholden to Ag sector) but seems to struggle with the link between growth and environmental degradation…curious (IMO)

            • Robert Guyton 11.7.1.2.2.2

              "it was obvious that the environment was secondary to putting farmers out of business."

              Utter nonsense, Ian. You need to settle and rethink.

            • KJT 11.7.1.2.2.3

              Do farmers really want to admit their business model depends on the rest of us paying their pollution costs? 

              I've seen commentary from more responsible farmers, that are annoyed with Federated farmers, and National, giving them a bad name.

              BTW. Even the oil industry stopped routinely Flushing oil into the water, decades ago. Why are farmers still allowed to pollute waterways.

               

    • mauī 11.8

      Why can everyone else accept new legislation that is for the public good and Wayne and his farmers can't? 

      Whether it be a lowered speed limit or the banning of plastic bags, people generally adjust and accept and move on. 

      However, I did not know New Zealand laws do not apply to farmers.

  12. greywarshark 12

    This is interesting on what causes insomnia or unrefreshing sleep leading to depression.   It is good stuff but oddly lit, but good overall.   She looks at the result of being bombarded with negative messages every day etc.

    Tedtalk:   Attention – This is Why you can't Sleep.  Bronwyn Milkins research.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaAydEAKglw   10 mins.

  13. marty mars 13

    worth a bonus

    "Floppy Johnson can't get an election"

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/4676854/brexit-news-boris-johnson/

     

  14. adam 14

    Not to be viewed by those easily triggered by facts, and/or facing up to reality.  

     



     

     

    Just remember, satire is your friend… Unless your a usual tory, snowflake, deniary, push any lie for power sort – then it's your enemy. 

  15. Dukeofurl 15

    Historical perspective for those  chicken littles

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_votes_of_no_confidence_in_British_governments

    These are ones where the government was defeated

  16. Ad 16

     

    Shane Jones puts $94.8 million into fixing the rail line from Auckland to Northland.

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK1909/S00167/government-investment-in-northland-rail-welcomed.htm

    Looks like the Minister chose the "just fix it" option rather than the full-throated "let's connect the rail line to Northport and prepare to shift some of Auckland's port" option.

    The repairs look like they are going to be done next year. That's hopefully good for those still underemployed in this part of Northland.

    Still leaves open the possibility of a proper shift once the government finally lands on the Upper North Island ports study, and can then unveil a proper rail line and sea port upgrade for Whangarei in time for the election.

  17. Sacha 17

    Hmmm. Potential extra stroke risk for vegans – could it be the stress of arguing about it with everyone? https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/food-wine/food-news/115583500/study-finds-a-plantbased-diet-is-linked-to-a-higher-risk-of-stroke

    • Rosemary McDonald 17.1

      …extra stroke risk for vegans….

      A couple of years ago, for reasons known only to himself, my man decided to not avoid that hole in the asphalt and tumbled he and his wheelchair arse over tip.  Now he's a Big Lad my man, all of six foot four and at least 100kgs, so the chances of me getting him re-seated by myself are nil. The only help available were a vegan couple from eastern Europe, somewhere.  I'm going "One, two, three lift! and they are doing… nothing. I try French, then German, with little extra effect.  This pale and almost bloodless pair had absolutely no umph at all.

      It was me who nearly had the stroke…

      • phillip ure 17.1.1

        @ mcdonald..

        what a fascinating anecdote..about how going vegan makes you so weak..

        you have almost convinced me to eat flesh again..

        but hang on..!

        have you ever seen something like this..?

        https://www.vegansouls.com/vegan-bodybuilders

        number 8 is particularly impressive..

        so is the 75 yr old…

        the women don’t look that weak either..

        • Rosemary McDonald 17.1.1.1

          …have you ever seen something like this..?

          Fascinating.  And I'm sure there would be no anecdote had any of that line up been available. 

          Btw….the reason I know the Pale and Weak Ones were vegan is that was the reason they gave for not be able to lift…

           

           

        • Puckish Rogue 17.1.1.2

          Yeah I'm sure they're not getting any 'help' at all 

    • is this one for me..?…ok..

      first off the added risk recognised is 3 more strokes every thousand  subjects…

      (quite the small percentile – i think we all cd agree..)

      (in the same study flesh-eaters had 10 more coronaries every 1,000 aubjects – why isn't that the headline..?..)

      third off the data used is decades old..

      '"This is data that's been collected from a couple of decades ago", Phillips explained.

      "It might well be that the typical vegetarian diet today looks very different to a vegetarian or vegan diet from 20 or 30 years ago.

      "They looked at what people ate and followed them for years, so it's an association, not cause-and-effect".

      (hope that clarifies all that..)

      • Andre 17.2.1

        I'm fascinated by your ability to correctly identify the flaws in those arguments against vegan diets, but completely miss very similar flaws in the "red meat causes colon cancer" argument.

        • phillip ure 17.2.1.1

          well y'see andre – you are confusing the message and the messanger..

          the red-flesh/processed-meat/bowel-cancer thing isn't me speaking..

          i am just parroting the warnings from those with the medical expertise enabling them to reach that conclusion/issue those warnings..

          i am not medically qualified to view their conclusions in a critical/analytical-way..

          not my ballgame..

          hope that clarifies that..

  18. wallace chapman – david slack – and leonie freeman all riffing on the vegan-lady/bbq thing..on rnz panel..

    complete and utter wankers – all three of them…

    their ignorances as wide as they are deep..

    ..fools..!

    • gsays 18.1

      To be fair phil, you have to include Cilla Carden in your list of wankers.

      Not because she is vegan per se, Because of her self centredness and strong sense of entitlement.

      • phillip ure 18.1.1

        can i run a hypothetical past you..

        an orthodox jewish old folks home..people who have spent their whole lives avoiding pork like i avoid all flesh..

        a new neighbour moves in..and insists on cooking pigs on a spit out in the backyard..each every day..

        and this is right next to where the old people sit in the afternoon sun /their exercise area..

        do you feel they would have any rights to try to stop this clear and obvious nuisance/impairment of their rights to their quiet enjoyment..?

        another nuance to this is we don't know what drove her to go to court..

        from the sound of it it was similar to what i outlined in the hypothetical..

        and we don't know what complete and utter arseholes those neighbours may have been..

        in their 'let's get the vegan lady'…

        (and given how the fleshies on here pile into me – getting all hysterical..

        i can easily see that mob-mentality at play here..

        so no..ii can't call her a wanker..

        (but i have met plenty of vegans – who i have thought are wankers = if that helps..?…)

        but as for chapman/slack/freeman – no doubt – total ignorant wankers – all of them..

        a total nuance-free zone..

         

        • marty mars 18.1.1.1

          Yep I agree

          It is hard to describe the smell of meat burning when you don't like it – sorta like puke on wings. It is the hardest thing for me as a vege to tolerate and I have to over and over again with no thought for my sensibilities.

          I fully get why she took a stand for her rights.

        • gsays 18.1.1.2

          In regards yr hypothetical, sure, ask them to not cook meat all day every day.

          Complain to management, organize a petition..

          But when you look round and are the only one right….

          As for not knowing why she complained: The neighbours were carnivorous, breeding, smoking people that incidentally had foreign sounding names. Oh, also, Cilla is a self centred person with a highly developed sense of entitlement  

           

          I can take you at yr word that the panel was a wank fest over the vegan story in Oz.

          When I read the articles about Cilla Carden and she is quoted as saying:

           "They've put it there so I smell fish, all I can smell is fish. I can't enjoy my backyard, I can't go out there." Self centred – check

          and "It's been devastating, it's been turmoil, it's been unrest, I haven't been able to sleep," she said. Hyperbole and exaggeration – Check.

           

          Then you add her desire for the children not to play basketball (too noisy).

          Top it off with being told that the Supreme Court Judge and the State Administrative Tribunal have sided with her neighbours and have refused her appeal.

          In anyones langauge, that is being a wanker.

        • Pat 18.1.1.3

          Is a two way street….where does the ability to object start and finish? Is it in the middle ground where the majority can accommodate or is it somewhere else?At some point it becomes dysfunctional does it not?

    • Tiger Mountain 18.2

      Aussie anti intellectualism adopted by the RNZ panel–Boofheads munching on charred animal bits is an achievement apparently…

      Veganism and Vegetarianism is the future, and many are attempting to live it right now–but Whadarrryaaaaaa! seems the regular bloke response, hard working, god fearin’ Nu Zilundas eat meat–got it!…

  19. Cinny 19

    Zimbabwe will be celebrating tonight, mugabe has passed away.

    “His contribution to the history of our nation and continent will never be forgotten…….

    Not wrong about that….mugabe has been accused of being a dictator responsible for economic mismanagement, widespread corruption, human rights abuses, and crimes against humanity.

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/09/zimbabwe-president-robert-mugabe-dies-aged-95-190906050943163.html

  20. greywarshark 21

    Edit:
    The ability of the older voter to comprehend that the status quo can not be an option; to grasp on BAU is for the innocent, ignorant middle aged and the olders resolutely looking away towards the tourism attractions and way from the real world.

    Chris Trotter in TDB.   https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2019/09/06/the-brexit-revolution-breaking-britain-to-remake-it/

    The Telegraph has a piece on what may be a wily Conservative twist-and-turn conga led by Boorish.
    https://premium.telegraph.co.uk/newsletter/article0/ignore-the-remainer-triumphalism-boris-is-still-on-course-for-victory

  21. marty mars 22

    Run you weakling pricks but you can't hide.

    Abbott said dying populations, not climate change, were the biggest threat to western civilisation, and lashed out at Prince Harry and Meghan Markle for recent remarks that they would not have more than two children due to the effects on the environment. “Having fewer children in western countries will hardly make the climate better when so many children are being born elsewhere,” said Abbott.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/06/viktor-orban-trumpets-far-right-procreation-anti-immigration-policy

  22. Eco maori 23

    Here's a Man Eco Maori admires and agrees with Kia Kaha stay strong keeping the Neanderthal in Check Ka pai 

    John Kerry says we can't leave climate emergency to 'neanderthals' in power

    It’s a lie that humanity has to choose between prosperity and protecting the future, former US secretary of state tells Australian conference

    John Kerry at the Global Table conference

    The former US secretary of state John Kerry has warned that humanity risks marching off a cliff unless governments take immediate action to fight the climate emergency.

    In a keynote address to the Global Table food and agriculture conference, Kerry made veiled swipes at the Australian government’s lack of climate and energy policy. He also weighed in on the heated debate about the massive Adani coalmine proposed for north Queensland.

    “We just can’t sit on our asses and leave the political process to neanderthals who don’t want to believe in the future,” Kerry told the audience in Melbourne. “We have a dearth of leadership, but this will turn.”John Kerry: US 'cannot afford truculent child president

    The former US Democratic presidential candidate said it was not a choice between taking action on the climate emergency and securing jobs and growth.

    “They are not separate. And anybody who persists in putting forward that notion that you have to make the choice – you can either have jobs plus prosperity or you can protect the environment and the future. That’s a lie

    Ka kite Ano link below. 

     

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/03/john-kerry-says-we-cant-leave-climate-emergency-to-neanderthals-in-power

  23. Eco maori 24

    Kia Ora Newshub

    The governments of the Papatuanuku need to do the humane thing and help the tangata of the Bahamas servive the huge mess hurricane Dorian made of their Island why because the government of the world are responsible for the cause of CLIMATE CHANGE 

    That's why I dislike PEE some people will do anything to get there next fix that phenomenon is what drives most crimes and thefts.

    I have read that it's hot in Australia at the minute The Bush fire season has started early there government is still backing old carbon neanderthals. 

    Vegans are 22% more likely to have a stroke there you go we need a good veritable diet yes we can lower our protein consumption but not leaving animals protein out of our diet totally is what I believe.

    I don't think that Wahine actor from America should be jailed for what she and many wealth people do. 

    Yes Wallaby need to be control to protect our native floral and birds and stop them from going  extinct.

    Ka kite Ano 

  24. Eco maori 25

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News. 

    There you go more PEE fueled Crime. 

    Don't count your chicken on brexit tangata

    The way the Hawaii government is treating the tangata whenua O Hawaii is bad and sad. That is the way simon wanted to treat tangata whenua o Aotearoa Protesters.

    The Amazon fires are a great man made desaster it shows that the government is not very intelligent they don't understand how Papatuanuku diversity of wild life is a great taonga that needs to be protected the. muppets

    Ka kite Ano 

  25. Eco maori 27

    We are making a big mess in  Tangaroa and on the whenua this is causing a masse extinction of our wild life and environment. 

    All in the goal of humanity instant satisfaction. Ie boil the jug to make a cup of tea turn on the light by a new TV because the relies have a better one. We have become a throw away society and in the process we are throwing away OUR FUTURE descendints right to a natural healthy life. We need to change and manufacture thing to last 20 years at least and stop using products with a huge carbon footprint. 

    After bronze and iron, welcome to the plastic age, say scientists

    Plastic pollution has entered the fossil record, research shows

    Scientists in Long Beach, California, studying the effects of oceanic microplastic pollution on the ecosystem.

    Plastic pollution is being deposited into the fossil record, research has found, with contamination increasing exponentially since 1945.

    Scientists suggest the plastic layers could be used to mark the start of the Anthropocene, the proposed geological epoch in which human activities have come to dominate the planet. They say after the bronze and iron ages, the current period may become known as the plastic age.

    The study, the first detailed analysis of the rise in plastic pollution in sediments, examined annual layers off the coast of California back to 1834. They discovered the plastic in the layers mirrors precisely the exponential rise in plastic production over the past 70 years.

    Most of the plastic particles were fibres from synthetic fabrics used in clothes, indicating that plastics are flowing freely into the ocean through waste water Ka kite Ano link below.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/sep/04/plastic-pollution-fossil-record

  26. Eco maori 28

    Some Eco Maori Music For The Minute. 

     

  27. Eco maori 29

    Kia Ora Newshub. 

    Whanau don't fall this con as you see they target the common poor people stay away from skyway capital. They no poor people are desperate and will believe there rubbish and lies IF ITS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE THAN ITS A LIE.

    I can guess why the USA is doing that nothing is logical in the USA now. 

    The Bahama desaster after math is evedince that global warming is going to affect the poor people the most. 

    TE REO Language week is awesome too celebrate Maori Language as a taonga. 

    I hope there is not too many people lives are affected negativey and wild life losses with the Australian Bush fire season starting earlier than expected.

    Ka kite Ano 

     

  28. Eco maori 30

    Kia Ora Te Ao Maori News. 

    Eco Maori reception is not receiving Maori TV Tawhirimate is going Mana at the minute.

    Ka kite Ano 

  29. Anne 31

    So, the Trump Administration ordered the management of the central meteorological agency, NOAA to reverse its claim that Alabama was not included in the original forecast track for Hurricane Dorian?

    Blackmail?  If you don't reverse your original statement we'll remove your government financial resources – or something like that?

    Meteorologists throughout the country are angry and upset at the way the "management" have folded. Shocking!

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/sep/07/sharpiegate-trump-alabama-hurricane-dorian

    “It’s unheard of that [Noaa] would – with no scientific basis whatsoever – undermine their own employees for political reasons. That’s never happened before under any administration … This doesn’t happen. This is a scientific agency. People gather data and they make the best decisions they can make from that data.”

    • joe90 31.1

      A trumpkin beholding to dear leader

      edit: tidied up and replied to the right thread

      • Anne 31.1.1

        It's not funny any more. Beyond disgraceful that a scientific organisation whose primary task is to advise and warn the public of weather related events should be undermined in the course of its duty.

        • Macro 31.1.1.1

          Totally agree Anne – somehow this has now become de rigueur in Trumpland.  For instance the EPA is just a shadow of its former self, and there is now hardly a Department of State that has a permanent head. The US administration is practically on its knees. Trump plays on his phone keyboard while America burns.

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    Canan Kaftancioglu is a Turkish politician and member of the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP). Like most modern politicians, she tweets, and uses the platform to criticise the Turkish government. She has criticised them over the death of a 14-year-old boy who was hit by a tear gas grenade during ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speaker: Tadhg Stopford: Why I’m standing for the ADHB
    Hi there, just call me Tim.We face tough problems, and I’d like to help, because there are solutions.An Auckand District Health Board member has nominated me for as a candidate for the ADHB, because her MS-related pain and fatigue is reduced with hemp products from Rotorua.  Nothing else helped her. If I ...
    1 week ago
  • Good little vassals
    The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security has published their report on whether the SIS and GCSB had any complicity in American torture. And its damning. The pull quote is this:The Inquiry found both agencies, but to a much greater degree, the NZSIS, received many intelligence reports obtained from detainees who, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Who Shall We Turn To When God, And Uncle Sam, Cease To Defend New Zealand?
    Bewhiskered Cassandra? Professor Hugh White’s chilling suggestion, advanced to select collections of academic, military and diplomatic Kiwi experts over the course of the past week, is that the assumptions upon which Australia and New Zealand have built their foreign affairs and defence policies for practically their entire histories – are ...
    1 week ago
  • The Politics of Opposition
    For most of the time I was a British MP, my party was out of government – these were the Thatcher years, when it was hard for anyone else to get a look-in. As a front-bencher and shadow minister, I became familiar with the strategies required in a parliamentary democracy ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • More expert comments on the Canadian fluoride-IQ paper
    The Green et al (2019) fluoride/IQ is certainly controversial – as would be expected from its subject (see If at first you don’t succeed . . . statistical manipulation might help and Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear). Anti-fluoride campaigners have been actively promoting it ...
    1 week ago
  • The return to guerrilla war in Colombia
    by Gearóid Ó Loingsigh On August 29th a video in which veteran FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) commander Iván Márquez announced that they had taken up arms again was released. There was no delay in the reaction to it, from longtime Liberal Party figure and former president Uribe, for ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Air New Zealand identifies this enormous plot of unused land as possible second airport site
    Air New Zealand couldn’t believe its luck that this seemingly ideal piece of real estate had so far gone entirely unnoticed. Air New Zealand’s search for a site to build a second Auckland Airport may have made a breakthrough this afternoon, after employees scanning Google satellite imagery spotted a huge, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Redline on the Labour Party
    No-one on the anti-capitalist left in this country today puts forward a case that Labour is on the side of the working class.  There are certainly people who call themselves ‘socialist’ who do, but they are essentially liberals with vested interests in Labourism – often for career reasons. Nevertheless, there ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • New Fisk
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour’s failure
    When National was in government and fucking over the poor for the benefit of the rich, foodbanks were a growth industry. And now Labour is in charge, nothing has changed: A huge demand for emergency food parcels means the Auckland City Mission is struggling to prepare for the impending arrival ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Ardern attempts to vaccinate Clarke Gayford live on television to prove that it’s safe
    Gayford, pictured here on The Project, before things got wildly out of control. A bold public relations move by the Government to encourage parents to vaccinate their children has gone horribly wrong. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern appeared on tonight’s episode of Three’s The Project, where the plan was for her ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Has Mr. Whippy gone too far by parking on our front lawns?
    Mr. Whippy’s business model has driven it down a dark road of intimidation. Residents in major centres around the country are becoming disgruntled by the increasingly aggressive actions of purported ice cream company Mr. Whippy, who have taken to parking on people’s front lawns and doorsteps in a desperate attempt ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Cleaning up the water
    Today the government released its Action Plan for Healthy Waterways, aimed at cleaning up our lakes and rivers. Its actually quite good. There will be protection for wetlands, better standards for swimming spots, a requirement for continuous improvement, and better standards for wastewater and stormwater. But most importantly, there's a ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Fronting up
    Today I appeared before the Environment Committee to give an oral submission on the Zero Carbon Bill. Over 1,500 people have asked to appear in person, so they've divided into subcommittees and are off touring the country, giving people a five minute slot each. The other submitters were a mixed ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear
    Anti-fluoride activists have some wealthy backers – they are erecting billboards misrepresenting the Canadian study on many New Zealand cities – and local authorities are ordering their removal because of their scaremongering. Many New Zealanders ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Democracy – I Don’t Think So
    So, those who “know best” have again done their worst. While constantly claiming to be the guardians of democracy and the constitution, and respecters of the 2016 referendum result, diehard Remainers (who have never brought themselves to believe that their advice could have been rejected) have striven might and main ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago
  • Government says it will now build just one really nice home
    Following publication of this article, the Ministry has requested it to be noted that this supplied image is not necessarily representative of what the final house will look like, and it “probably won’t be that nice.” As part of today’s long-anticipated reset of the Government’s flagship KiwiBuild policy, Housing Minister ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Imperialism and your cup of coffee
    Over the next week or two we will be running three synopses of parts of the opening chapter of John Smith’s Imperialism in the 21st Century (New York, Monthly Review Press, 2016).  The synopsis and commentary below is written by Phil Duncan. Marx began Capital not with a sweeping historical ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Still juking the stats
    The State Services Commission and Ombudsman have released another batch of OIA statistics, covering the last six months. Request volumes are up, and the core public service is generally handling them within the legal timeframe, though this may be because they've learned to extend rather than just ignore things. And ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Hard News: Time for a New Deal: 25 years on
    In 1994, I was editing an ambitious street mag called Planet, from a fabled office at at 309 Karangahape Road. The thirteenth issue of the magazine was published in the winter of that year and its cover embodied a particularly ambitious goal: the end of cannabis prohibition.I wanted to do ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Not impressed
    KiwiBuild was one of the Ardern government's core policies. The government would end the housing crisis and make housing affordable again by building 100,000 new homes. Of course, it didn't work out like that: targets weren't met, the houses they did build were in the wrong place, and the whole ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Solar beats coal
    As the climate crisis escalates, it is now obvious that we need to radically decarbonise our economy. The good news is that its looking easy and profitable for the energy sector. Wind is already cheaper than fossil fuels, and now solar is too:The levellised cost of solar PV has fallen ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago

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