Here is my prediction.
Talleys (and many other two-bit shits) will shortly be establishing Australian entities to own their NZ assets. This is so that they will then fall under the TPP ISDS system. This is gaming the system. And this for many corporates appears to be what it’s all about.
• If you raise minimum wages this will affect our future profits
• If you increase the opportunity for effective collective agreements this will affect our future profits
• If you change environmental laws ….
• If you change the fish quotas …..
• If you change ACC contributions….
• If….
• If..
The list will be extremely long, and it will not take many challenges for governments to back away from making any policy, regulatory or legislative changes because the risks of ISDS challenges. I’m not sure whether this is an intended consequence or unintended consequence of the TPP.
Third party funding is a fast growing industry and will undoubtedly play a large role in investment arbitration in the future. Investors will need or want to outsource the financial risks involved with investment arbitration.
Dr. Eric De Brabandere & Julia Lepeltak, Leiden University5
trp, while you are about, do you know if there is any discussion about how Labour might deal with the issues the TPPA brings post-signing and once in government? If Little is saying that they will go back to the signatories and deal with it there, has he said how that might happen?
My understanding is that the TPP has no entrenched mechanism for re-negotiation or review. Though, if there is, I’d be happy to hear about it. I suspect future governments will have to use the diplomatic route to re-start negotiations. I’ll have a dig and see what I can find out where Labour are heading with this aspect. Might be a post in it.
Bill has put up this argument, which on the face of it looks like a fairly significant impediment to renegotiation. Neither of us have found any expert opinion on that though (I don’t think either of us have looked).
it’s a lock down given that in seeking an amendment, any party can exercise a veto and any party seeking an amendments has, unlike in initial negotiations, no position to horse trade from.
Here’s the entire wording of Article 30.2 Amendments
The Parties may agree, in writing, to amend this Agreement. When so agreed by all Parties and approved in accordance with the applicable legal procedures of each Party, an amendment shall enter into force 60 days after the date on which all Parties have notified the Depositary in writing of the approval of the amendment in accordance with their respective applicable legal procedures, or on such other date as the Parties may agree
The 12 countries’ legislatures will have no ability to re-negotiate the deal’s terms, however, and will be limited to yes-or-no votes on signing it into law.
thanks for that. My quick reading of it is that that refers to pre-ratification.
Deal goes to parliaments
US President Barack Obama released a statement saying Americans would have months to read the Trans-Pacific Partnership before he signs it into law.
In the United States, the deal will next go to the Congress for consideration, and in New Zealand and other countries, it will go before the Parliament.
The 12 countries’ legislatures will have no ability to re-negotiate the deal’s terms, however, and will be limited to yes-or-no votes on signing it into law.
It’s a messy bit of reporting too, because in NZ at least, it won’t go before parliament.
The Greens and NZ First did their homework and immediately recognized TPPA was another corporate take-over move. Labour gives every impression they are just starting to wake up.
Can’t help wondering if there is conflict of interest among certain NT MPs ((John Key) springs to mind – any declaration of investment in those Third party funding investors. Who is really going to benefit from nation states having to go into arbitration (ISDS)?
It’s intended. Just look at how the National Government reacted to the Philip Morris case against the Australian Government. Too scared to do anything… just in case.
No, not too scared, but prudently letting the Australian taxpayers take the risk and foot the legal bill. If they were unsuccessful, then the precedent would be set and we would have to think hard about having a go ourselves.
I understand Andrew Little will support the TPPA if Labour get into power .
Can someone explain to me exactly what the official position is please?
Do we oppose and protest or do we support and settle down ?
The answer is that National must be opposed by all those who believe in NZ’s democractic sovereignty and freedom from corporate control. And so must Labour.
Labour. The perfect example of a peoples party which has become a party of the ruling establishment.
Andrew Little – insincere and incredible.
But apparently some here say that he is the best Labour speech maker in decades. Great.
“some here say that he is the best Labour speech maker in decades”
I think that is an accurate opinion. He is the best since David Lange.
That is mainly because all the other leaders ranged from terrible to dreadful.
Not sure who wrote the speech, but I reckon it’s Grant Robertson behind the policy as a Version 2 of the interest free student loans scheme he developed in 2005.
The perfect example of a peoples party which has become a party of the ruling establishment.
Actually, Labour has always been a capitalist party but it’s worked to save capitalism from itself. We’re now learning that this can’t actually be done.
The strategy is to run down the TPP even though we agree with it , hopefully this will fool and confuse enough people to get us over the line and into power.
Once in, we’ll spin some bullshit about how our hands are tied and it’s all Nationals fault.
Makes one wonder why you support it, CV. Must be hard being a paying poodle of those notorious supporters of the 1% but lets not call it hypocrisy, coz that’d be true, but mean.
and the perfect example of why I can’t be bothered with TS …. yea nah.
TRP’s last comment (re the EMbittered CV – possibly with good reason) was disingenuous, cowardly, conceited, holier-than-thou, in-bubble, and in short – complete and utter kaka. All the best of British TRP! (and all those that fawn all over you). Christ!!! and we wonder what’s wrong with Labour ffs! There ya have it in a nutshell – that ‘broad church’ we’re supposed to worship within – just as long as we worship our betters
I suppose you’re correct @ grey.
There are plenty worse BUT (I mean – the “voice of Reason ffs!) – how arrogant is THAT?!!!!
Then there’s another that’s so fucking up itself it runs as tho’ it was some sort of elementary cure for a disease. _I wonder whether Lanthanide could possibly cure the for ZIKA virus – it’s certainly so fucking arrogant and holier than thou it’d believe in marketing itself as a cure-all for all the ills of the world.
You’re correct however – neither (of those specimens) come close to what we need to battle.
It’s just that Labour really do need to have a fucking good look at themsleves (perhaps even spend less time bagging C.V. for bad experiences) and really look at their own inadequacies.
Like my father-in-law before me (after a lifetime of supporting Labour), they’ll NOT get my vote till after they’ve acknowledged, apologised, and proven themselves. I don’t see it tho’ in the near future.
Christ – I’m even considering a vote for Winston.
Key may not make it to election year – he’s looking old and tired and making mistakes. Time was he’d’ve relished an opportunity like Waitangi, but he can no longer cut the mustard.
The National Party Herald are in full rent-a-propaganda mode on the TPPA.
Audrey Young in her article titled “Protest fears put cork in TPP ministers celebration lunch at winery” blatantly pushes the pro-TPP argument quoting Todd McClay, Villa Maria founder Sir George Fistonich, executive director of Export New Zealand, Catherine Beard.
She totally misses the point that the people of NZ are STAKEHOLDERS in the TPPA.
We, the public, Maori and Pakeha, will be paying the costs of this agreement with our health, our environment, our jobs, our education and it is OUR sovereignty that is being traded without our having been consulted.
We , the public, were excluded from taking part in this agreement until the stage where we cannot make any changes to it.
Those groups opposed to the TPPA have been ignored or dismissed as scaremongers?
Where is the Health Cost Benefit Analysis called for by the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists?
If a CEO presented an investment opportunity (and that is what the TPPA is being touted as) to a group of shareholders that promised an ROI of 1% after 10 years, the shareholders, after laughing him out of the boardroom, would be asking for his resignation. 1% is margin of error stuff. The problem I have with he TPPA is it is being pushed as some big trade opportunity when in reality, to me anyway, trade is just being used to make it palatable to Joe Public. The real intent is around the rules of trade and how it concentrates more power into the hands of corporates and limits what a sovereign government can do to protect the interests of the people it is meant to serve.
If a CEO presented an investment opportunity (and that is what the TPPA is being touted as) to a group of shareholders that promised an ROI of 1% after 10 years, the shareholders, after laughing him out of the boardroom, would be asking for his resignation. 1% is margin of error stuff.
that is exactly what it is…a few crumbs from the trade table to cement in the corporates power…as if they need more, they already lead the elected govs by the nose
The TPPA mitigates a lot more risk for the corporates by socializing it through legislation rather than them having to lobby governments on a case by case basis.
I was agreeing with you and adding to your statement. From a corporate perspective this is a rational extension of their strategies when dealing with externalising risk.
It requires an ever vigilant public to counter it. But the machine is very well funded and very powerful. It can offer lots of goodies to stifle criticism… somebody once said to me: “money might not be able to buy love but it can buy a pretty comfortable misery”. It seems to me that many are content in that regard.
Perfect from a corporate perspective… licence to gouge.
+1 Jones – yes the irony is that once TPPA is signed, corporations probably won’t waste money buying political figures, they can just litigate politicians decisions through their own kangaroo ISDS tribunals. Ha ha.
Like the cliched mafia “offer you can’t refuse” with the promise of becoming a “made man” for the politicians who show the greatest enthusiasm in facilitating it.
@Ben “We, the public, Maori and Pakeha, will be paying the costs of this agreement with our health, our environment, our jobs, our education”.
Our Health
The New Zealand Medical Association (NZMA) is repeating its call for an independent Health Impact Assessment of the Trans-Pacific Partnership trade agreement (TPPA).
“As strong advocates for the profession and for our patients, we supported the call last year by a number of other health sector organisations for an independent assessment of the impact of the TPPA on health,” says NZMA Chair Dr Stephen Child.
“We need a clear understanding of the possible effects of the TPPA on current and future policy settings and directions.
“We must also ensure our ability to achieve legitimate public policy objectives—such as the protection of public health, safety and the environment—is protected. To do this we must have an independent assessment focused on these aspects.
“Much of the discussion around the TPPA has been on its economic value for the country. While we accept there might be financial benefits for the country, the NZMA believes wider issues need to be considered, including affordable access to medicines, and public health policies especially around tobacco and alcohol control.
“Last week’s release of the National Interest Analysis does not fully allay our concerns. Analysis focusing on the effects on health—including issues such as climate change—is still needed.”
The TPPA’s enforcement provisions are very similar to those first developed for the US/Peru FTA, and it is continued violations of Peru’s obligations under that agreement have become the case study in how enforcement of such environmental protections has failed. • When challenged on the need for ISDS provisions, ministers promoting the TPPA repeatedly stated that there would be no restraint on a government’s ability to regulate in the public interest. What the TPPA has delivered are provisions that completely fail to protect governments from being sued when taking such action. • The risk that a government could be successfully sued means the ISDS provisions would have a ‘chilling effect’ on a government’s willingness to undertake progressive environmental reform. This favours retaining low standards when these need to rise markedly. • There is a gross asymmetry in the rights and means accorded organisations that would seek to protect the commons for the public good, and rights and means accorded foreign investors to protect private wealth.
Imagine an education system where multi-national corporations could set up a school alongside your local public school, and then demand equal access to the taxpayer purse to fund that school.
It’s a likely scenario because global businesses are on the hunt for new ways of getting their fingers into nations’ multi-billion dollar public education purses. And here in New Zealand, the TPPA could provide that opportunity.
Even Singapore, which our education minister has hailed as one of the high performing education systems that we should look towards, has taken the precaution of carving education out of the TPPA deal.
Thank you for taking the time to compile a detailed response TMM (somewhat refreshing for opinions to be backed with analysis I might add). I shall read and digest your links.
You are welcome, Ben. You will find the link below useful as it contains peer-reviewed expert analysis on several chapters of the TPP. Thank you for being openminded and prepared to consider the information so that you can make up your own mind on the issue. My beef is against people who are wilfully ignorant: who deliberately refuse to read any information and suspend their own ability to think rationally, blindly following others without questioning.
You are obviously not one of those, thank goodness.
How long ago were you in primary school Ben? Presumably you are old enough to have had secondary ed and taught how to run a critical analysis of what you are reading.
Hard luck Labour supporters. It seems as though you are being let down by your party leaders once more. Looks like we are in the TPPA for the long haul.
I thinks it’s hard luck for a left coalition in total. If voters are against the TPPA, how can they vote to elect a left wing government that is committed to pulling out of the agreement?
Yes. As usual. None so blind…. chris.
The TPPA is in. Signed and sealed. Will be ratified by Cabinet and not by Parliament as will be done in Canada, and the Senate in USA. Finished.
Andrew can not cancel it. But they/we can fight against the aspects which are bad for NZ, when new legislation is brought to the House for Parliament to vote on.
The only way Labour Loyalists can stomach the cognitive dissonance is by buying into Labour’s line that the TPPA isn’t that bad, that the costs of being out of the TPPA are too high, so let’s just accept it.
Just more evidence for Kiwi voters that we don’t have a real Opposition.
We do have a real opposition – it’s just that Labour is not part of it.
Wise up. There are other Parties in Parliament.
It has been the case for some time that Labour thinks because it is the big brother it must control everything – that is going to change – as more and more voters wake up to the fact that if they really want an alternative voice they won’t find it in Labour.
Trouble is, CV believes that people should vote for the parties that match them culturally or that they believe in. In the absence of that, all parties are useless to him.
Until now Opposition parties have been urging the govt to pull out of the negotiations – only now is the time for them to publicly state that they will pull out, if given the opportunity. I expect that they will in due course. Unfortunately Labour have been ambivalent re the TPPA from the get go.
The latest statement from the Greens I feel is pretty clear. They will continue to oppose the TPPA. I think that that is as much as a Party can say on the matter. The TPPA has not yet been ratified and we await the outcome in the States, The problem with withdrawal is still fraught – it could end up costing billions – no matter which way you look at it. It’s a shit of a situation that National have signed us up to and they intend digging us even deeper in the hole.
I think there is a fair amount of political naivity in this thread (or disingenuousness on CV’s part because he should know better). Russell Norman said a few elections ago that one of the major problems with free trade agreements was that they bound NZ into contracts that incoming governments had no knowledge of. He was talking about ones done completely in secret, but this applies to the TPPA too because of the clusterfuck process and the complexity of the agreement. So for instance, if Labour campaigned on policy X and then came into government and discovered that there was a confidential clause in an agreement made by a previous govt that prohibited them from doing policy x, then their hands were tied. Plus they look like they’ve just gone back on their promise.
This is why I’m basically against all free trade that isn’t done via full democracy. Because the basic premise is that it’s ok for a govt elected for one term to bind NZ into contracts for eternity, and that’s not a free state.
And for people surprised that pulling out is not an easy thing to do, this is what a huge part of the protest has been about. It’s an inherently flawed idea and process and many people knew that from the start.
If a Party in opposition prior to an election indicates that it will withdraw from the TPPA then overseas corporates will be waiting for any sign – should that Party gain the Treasury benches – for filing suits against withdrawal and the loss of profits for all manner of reasons. It will be a can of worms. Parties opposed to the TPPA are also parties who want more action on environment, protection of NZ land, etc (provisions for which have been removed from the TPPA) so the field will be open for ISDS mayhem. It takes 6 months for a country to withdraw. Even with an electoral mandate, it would take an incoming Govt at least a year before final withdrawal and plenty of time for companies to lodge claims, however spurious. These courts are set up in the favour of corporates and manned by corporate lawyers. They are a farce and formed with the sole aim of handing the ability of a country to manage and govern itself in its own perceived interests into the hands of multinationals – nothing more nor less.
If a Party in opposition prior to an election indicates that it will withdraw from the TPPA then overseas corporates will be waiting for any sign – should that Party gain the Treasury benches – for filing suits against withdrawal and the loss of profits for all manner of reasons.
Would the short term loss caused by that be bigger than the continuing loss that is going to come from remaining in the TPPA?
The problem with withdrawal is still fraught – it could end up costing billions – no matter which way you look at it.
That would depend upon the process of withdrawal. Do the ISDS claims get to continue after we’ve withdrawn? If I was the government I’d make sure that any and all claims against the nation under TPPA would be closed at the same time that withdrawal took place. This should be standard operating procedure so as to prevent the spurious claims that you’re concerned about.
Nevertheless, if you want the best resistance to the TPPA and any other agreement like it, then voting for the GP is the thing to do. They’ve consistently said they opposed it (unlike Labour who are still pretty centrist and pro-free trade), and have been working for years on opposing these kind of agreements that undermine NZ.
btw, personal feelings of being represented aren’t necessary to use one’s vote, or even to feel politically empowered for useful.
“btw, personal feelings of being represented aren’t necessary to use one’s vote, or even to feel politically empowered for useful.”
Speak for yourself. I vote on policy, thus policy must reflect my views if a party wants to attain it.
When it comes to such a major political issue as this trade deal (and considering a poll on the matter showed the majority of voters were opposed) one would expect there to be political representation.
The Greens haven’t committed to withdrawing if renegotiations are unsuccessful, thus alternatives fail to advance.
Moreover, at this stage the Greens require Labour, hence Labour will largely be calling the shots. And there goes your resistance to the TPP.
Na I’m cool with Little’s handling of it, given that a the tpp is unlikely to make a blind bit of difference to my life and that Little is running a party with independent thinkers in it not like the whipped gutless tools in national.
A marvelous approach to democracy. Let the government of the day jail all its democratically elected opponents. Even Venezuela finds this a bit hard to do.
If this government were not riddled with corruption it would have nothing to fear. But corruption is fatal to democracies – and the consequences of failing democracies are well documented.
The bracing subantarctic climate would do wonders for Key’s integrity, and Gerry Brownlee might well prove attractive to sea elephants.
Though you misread my comment – it referred in fact directed to persons within Labour, who like yourself support treason against NZ in the form of the TPP.
I don’t see that as letting supporters down. It might be theoretically possible to pull out of the TPPA but practically the cost of doing so would be unaffordable.
You can’t sign up deals and then walk away from them without penalty. Actions have consequences, an arbitrary withdrawal would destroy much of the existing business & diplomatic relationships we have with member countries.
or trust that the US don’t ratify….the greedy corps lobbyists may yet shoot themselves in the foot in that regard…which reminds me …why the complete lack of concern expressed via the MSM around the issue of side letters?…
Yes. I heard that American on radio talking about US seeking side letters to “clarify” that the time was really 8 years not just 5 years as we have been told. Yet we have been told by Key that there will be no changes. Signed. Sealed. Untouchable. Huh!
Andrew Geddis” The confusion is over the length of time that “biologics” (i.e. medicines that are made using certain types of cells to produce the right kind of protein) will be given protection through a “market exclusivity period” in which “biosimilars” (which are akin to generic medicines) are prohibited. There’s an explainer on why this matters here.
It seems like NZ thinks we’ve agreed to a 5 year protection period, but the US wants at least 8, and no-one is quite sure exactly what the TPPA text says.”
This is why the Neoliberals always win, why Labour is so ineffective at changing the course of the things, and why the status quo continues to drift towards the right.
National and the corporates now know how to handle Labour.
You simply make deals which are too tough and costly to undo, and a gutless Labour will go along with it: to them staying in the TPP is the pragmatic, unavoidable decision.
It is too costly and too dangerous to wait for that point. Fascists, racists, extreme nationalists all become much more politically empowered at that point.
I fear it’s a vain hope too pat but one of the prepared scripts from the pro-TPP trolls (including the NZ Herald) is that we can always leave if it turns out to be no good.
The argument not to sign would be strengthened considerably if the likes of Labour admitted that we really can’t leave once we’ve signed; that it’s a one-way ticket. Politically that should help Labour by demonstrating to voters how undemocratic and authoritarian National is.
Six months notice. That’s all it takes on paper to get out of the TPP. Then it’s simply a case of standing firm and refusing to play ball on all the ISDS claims that would rain from the sky during those six months.
And the other threats of how there will be huge divestment and so on – face them all down.
Something to note. An argument for the TPP and specifically the dispute procedures, is that direct foreign investment plummets without them. A number of studies, including one by the World Bank, have found that claim to be entirely false.
Side note. Syriza, in spite of the express backing of the Greek voters, capitulated when it tried to play that game with Europe’s ‘big boys’. There is now rioting in Greece again.
“Six months notice. That’s all it takes on paper to get out of the TPP. Then it’s simply a case of standing firm and refusing to play ball on all the ISDS claims that would rain from the sky during those six months. ”
There’s more to it than that Bill. We currently trade with, and have good diplomatic relationships with, all the member countries. If we renege on the deal those countries will freeze us out. They’ll be pissed off with us and will show it. The US have shown time & again how vindictive they are, they alone would make life hard for us.
We won’t face an overt embargo. We’d just see a whole lot of subtle changes, obstacles put in our way, which would gradually reduce to a trickle the trade & investment we do with those countries.
Once we’re in the most hopeful outcome I can see is a breakaway by a group of nations; enough to weaken the remaining TPP bloc and enough to avoid the penalties that would befall a single nation quitting.
Yeah, short term. But, long term – as shown by various studies including by the World Bank – being in or out of these deals makes absolutely no difference to levels of trade/investment.
Despite what the tories and self-loathing labourites say, Little was pretty clear in Gosman’s link.
Labour is a party that supports free trade. This is not a surprise to anyone except the poor few who spend the first few minutes of every morning believing it’s 1972 again.
There are some bits in the TPPA that meet Labour’s free trade objectives.
There are other bits that fail to meet Labour’s expectations about sovreignty.
Therefore, Labour’s starting point is to try to keep those things it agrees with and renegotiate those things it finds unacceptable.
People demanding that NZ pull out of the deal see it as a wreck that should be written off. Labour see it as a do-er upper. How a LabGrn govt sees it? That has yet to be negotiated.
Labour leader Andrew Little says his party supports free trade but will not back the TPP unless their bottom lines are met.
Labour has set out five “non-negotiable” conditions for a Pacific-wide trade deal, including protection for Pharmac and the right to restrict house sales.
Leader Andrew Little said his party supported free trade but would not back the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) unless the five “non-negotiable bottom lines” were met.
…
Labour believes the conditions reflect protections in the 2008 free trade agreement it negotiated with China.
It has previously withheld support for the TPP pending the release of the final draft of the 12-nation deal.
But Thursday’s announcement is the first time it has put specific conditions on its support.
Bear in mind that ‘backs’ there is before any of us have seen the draft, including Labour, and that Little is talking about whether they will support National signing the agreement or not.
except that it is patently obvious that the US would not be in this deal without the ISDS provisions (see TTIP negotiations) and the ability to vet our legislation……as a small (the size of a moderate US city) we are in a weak bargaining position…this applies to any side letter issue, unlike say Japan who are able to bargain from a position of strength.
We have managed to export in the face of tariffs, quotas and subsidies to date and their is no need to bend over for this when the subsidies, quotas and tariffs (particularly in the Us) still remain and are merely “adjusted”…we would be far better off moving our exports up the value chain as advocated by many analysts…we will never be able to compete on volume …consider what we have done to this country by increasing the dairy herd from 130,000 to 1.3 million in canty, 5 million nationwide…the US has 90 million beasts and they are only the fifth largest country by herd numbers worldwide.
Nevertheless, Labour’s starting position is that the TPP will be a done deal before the next election, so the preferred option is to try to improve it before considering something like withdrawal.
If we don’t like some of the sovreignty issues, other nations (e.g. Canada) will have similar concerns. We can’t control, but we might be able to lead.
there will be no improving it….all efforts will be needed to ensure it is not made any worse….its a dog, a red zoned condemned property, not a doer upper
That might well be your perspective.
It does not seem to be the perspective of the Labour Party.
But how do you feel about free trade agreements in principle? I suspect that therein might lie some of the difference in perspective.
It’s way past time to quit using the old ‘you must be against free trade’ line.
Fundamentally the TPP will inhibit the kind of companies NZ needs in order to export higher quality products and will, as Oram points out, lock us more tightly into raw commodity producer status.
That isn’t free trade, it’s restrictive trade.
Little made it clear that Labour is not, and that they see free trade elements in the TPP. Assuming the second part is correct, then anyone 100% opposed to the TPP is also against the free trade elements.
I’m against the TPP because of the ISDS and intellectual property issues. But just as there’s bad stuff in it, there’s probably some good stuff in any 6000 page multilateral agreement.
But thanks for taking a reasonable suspicion and depicting it as a categorical claim. That always ensures some shit-hot conversationing.
Weren’t you replying to Pat, not ”some commenters”?
I know the Labour bashing thing recently here has got out of hand (personally I got over my disappointment with Labour’s TPP stance about 18 months ago), but Pat is actually informed about the unequal power relationship and specific risks that aren’t at all answered by an asinine there’s-good-stuff-and-bad-stuff-like-any-deal response.
I was, but I don’t have exhaustive records of every commenter’s opinions on a range of topics. My suspicion was based on pat’s categorical opposition to the entire thing (contrasting with Little’s more nuanced approach), and the fact that such an attitude is not exactly unheard of around here.
Pat advised me otherwise, and I took them at their word.
You might think that wanting to keep the bits Labour agrees with while trying to renegotiate the bits it doesn’t is “asinine”, but that seems to be Labour’s position.
Is there anything in particular you want from me, or should I just regard this little exchange as yet another meaningless piece of static?
I will confess that initially I had thought that with the ISDS provisions removed it may have been a workable document, but the more I look into it the worse it becomes and that includes the trade aspects…. I expect if and when it is implemented our balance of payments will deteriorate significantly.
Pat, the only hope is a democratic win in the States. In my view rather than asking if we can pull out, the focus should be getting the public to understand it’s not a done deal yet.
McFlock: I think you missed the bit where Little moved to outright opposition to TPP. While Little acknowledges that once a done deal NZ (effectively) can’t pull out, that was significant.
So you’re defending a position even Labour has abandoned.
I don’t want anything from you, but as a suggestion maybe try actually following some news before commenting on this?
@ergo I was aware of that. This subthread is about TC’s suggestion of withdrawal from the done deal vs trying to improve it first. So your “suggestion”, while snarky, adds no new information to the discussion and is not really relevant to anything I’ve written here. Just like your initial mischaracterization of my position.
So this is just another example of a completely pointless ergovmcf tit-for-tat, I would suggest that you actually think before jumping on your high horse, but past experience suggests that this would be futile. And as continuation would likely fill up pat’s reply tab, I say ‘good day’.
Oh, it must have escaped your notice – I directly addressed Pat too in my last reply, it’s not all about you.
Your concern for Pat’s reply tab is touching but unnecessary.
My other replies on this thread involve actual arguments about the TPP, and I daresay Pat’s not too bothered that I’ve used his reply tab a few times to make those comments.
I thought you were saying Labour’s current TPP position was that it was partly good and partly bad, I pointed out Labour had moved to outright opposition.
You’ve said you’re aware of Labour’s current position – OK, accepted.
Not keen on any future interaction with you, either.
There’s a fair chance the US will reject it – and who knows – those obtuse losers, the Gnats may change their minds as they see what little credibility they ever had vanishing down the plughole with foreign land sales, mounting debt and graphic incompetence.
It’s an odd translation but interesting points about varying radiation levels on food in countries trade.
Under TPPA consumers are going to have less and less knowledge of their food origin. It is the opposite of the 21st century farming where consumers want to know the origin of their food from farm gate to table …
“Dumping Radioactive Food from Japan on the World-Why the TPP is a Pending Disaster”
My reading is that it’s not so much that Little thinks they should stay in as it’s going to be too hard to leave. If Labour’s current position on sovereignty is to be believed, then that exists once we are in the agreement too and thus if leaving were easy then it would be easy. CV appears to take the view that Labour are lying, I take the view that Labour are caught between a rock and a hard place.
I’ll just add that most people criticising Labour for saying they won’t leave haven’t yet looked at what leaving would actually entail. Until that conversation is had it’s hard to put Labour’s decision into context.
So don’t buy food you don’t know the origin of. Local NZ companies will be wise to continue labeling their products as NZ made. I currently do that and buy only food that is NZ grown/made even if it costs more.
People need to understand we have power but we need to start believing in it and use it.
Not sure I want to start making my own pasta and rice and so forth. Not as easy as it sounds. It sort of like going back to 18th century . While I think you should buy as much locally grown as you can and limit food miles – some foods are not practical to buy locally and shouldn’t you be allowed to know where it came from and how safe it is? Under previous trade agreements country of origin labelling have been successfully challenged as a ‘trade barrier’.
of course, but the subthread was about how to stay empowered if corporate culture tries to take that from us.
There are people in NZ already making pasta. Wheat can easily be grown here.
Rice is trickier. It probably can be grown for larger distribution but to eat local we should be eating local and seasonal, which means that for many in NZ rice won’t be a staple. Plenty of other good choices though.
Buy fresh food from the local vege shop or market and use the internet to learn where other food is coming from. They might be able to limit the information on the label but evey company wants to put its logo on the product, so google it and find out.
There is currently an app to scan barcodes and find out if the product contain certified palm oil, I have a feeling if food labeling will be limited there will be more apps like that. It is kind of foolish from corporations to think they can completely block information. Not in this time and age.
More adverse comment against the Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) rort.
TTIP investor court illegal, say German judges
BRUSSELS, 4. FEB, 18:17
German judges dealt a blow to EU-US free trade agreement talks after declaring a proposed arbitration court illegal.
The European Commission last September proposed setting up an investment tribunal court that would allow firms to challenge government decisions as part of its larger Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP).
Critics says the new court, which is intended to replace a much loathed investor-to-state dispute settlement (ISDS) system, will pressure governments into clawing back consumer protection rights and environmental standards in favour of corporate interest.
Earlier this week, the German Association of Magistrates, a Berlin-based judicial umbrella organisation, said it “sees neither a legal basis nor a need for such a court”.
It says existing national courts are good enough and that efforts by the Commission to create a new court undermines jurisdictions across the Union.
“The German Magistrates Association sees no need for the establishment of a special court for investors,” it states.
It says the new investor court would alter national court systems “and deprive courts of member states of their power.”
The German magistrates also cast doubt on the independence of the judges in the new system as well as their appointment procedures.
I refer to these ISDS courts as kangaroo courts – I find it absolutely mind boggling that anyone with even the most minutest understanding of their responsibility to ensure fair justice for the citizens of their country (yes I’m looking at you Tim, and you John, and you Todd) could agree to such a procedure – so open to abuse and bias, so flimsy in its appointments, which circumvents the International courts and the jurisdiction of the WTO, and with no right of appeal, and only for the benefit of Multi-nationals with Pockets way deeper than the GDPs of 75% of the countries involved.
well in Keyspeak, it’s a “no brainer” isn’t it? ISDS “arrangements” makes it anything but a “Free” trade agreement, and until the very notion of them is thrown out, how can we even think about anything else?
Thanks for the post, something to direct the believers to, when they accuse those that want to discuss further of being “rent a mob” or smelly hippies!
This TPPA reminds me of Y2K, once it is all passed the world wont stop spinning. our lives will go on as normal, All those who opposed it will have moved on to the next anti progress agenda.
Has anyone stopped to think how TPPA will benefit the poorer countries with trade to these other 11 countries.
I come from the point of why would 12 countries sell there country man and their own families down the drain.
I feel we will look back in 10 years time and say what was all the worry about.
All those who opposed it will have moved on to the next anti progress agenda.
The TPPA is only progress if you think going back to feudalism is progress.
Has anyone stopped to think how TPPA will benefit the poorer countries with trade to these other 11 countries.
It won’t benefit them at all. In fact, it will probably make them worse off as most of Africa is now worse off after they got ‘free-trade’ forced upon them by the rich nations. The rich nations did well out of it though because they bought up large amounts of the poor countries and shifted all the resources to them.
History shows quite clearly that poor countries do very badly out of these types of deals.
It’s also a point that all the developed countries developed under under heavy protection.
Chris Trotters Bowalley Road piece post-march is very thoughtful and sincere.
It also has an awe inspiring helicopter photo of Queen Street packed with heads as far as the eye can see.
Further he says, and I thought you all would be interested so have copied it for you (and have bolded a portion that expresses very well the situation):
John Key and his Government thus risk entering election year as a collection of figurative “Quislings”, guilty of conspiring against the national interest on behalf of entities without countries, morals or scruples. If this perception can be driven deep into the electorate’s mind, then National’s chances of re-election will be nil. More importantly, the victorious coalition of Labour, the Greens and NZ First will be swept into office with a broad mandate to take on a corporate plutocracy that has ruled without challenge for far too long.
No, but the way you are acting is on par with the worst of Labour MPs, so I have no doubt that if you were in their position you would be pulling the same kind of bullshit they are.
Weka, don’t know if you have followed the link in 4. above.
Andrew is very clear in stating that Labour will not pull out of the TPPA.
He clearly states the reason for that is that there is much in the agreement that will be good for NZ.
He is clear that there are certain provisions they would renegotiate, but reiterates that they will not pull out.
He says 3 times “The train has left the station”.
Labour have never said they would pull out. To suggest that Labour is now all of a sudden saying it won’t pull out is a nonsense, because they’ve never intended to pull out. That was clear last year, pulling out was never part of their agenda.
“He clearly states the reason for that is that there is much in the agreement that will be good for NZ.”
Can you please quote that bit, or at least post the time stamp?
Please post something that demonstrates that Labour have ever said anything that hints that they might pull out. Because this isn’t news, it’s always been their position.
That’s a bit disingenuous Weka. Not stating whether you will or will not do something is very different to confirming that you will or will not do something.
Up until yesterday I don’t believe Labour had made any definite statement that they would remain in the TPPA.
Maybe I’m wrong and someone can link to such a statement?
Can you please quote that bit, or at least post the time stamp?
Apologies, I should have quoted him directly the first time rather than paraphrasing from memory…
“(pieces of TPPA legislation) that support genuine free trade we will support, because we are a free trade Party.”
“…There are aspects that will help some exporters, we’ve never shied away from that.”
” if you are desperate to have only one answer to this, that it’s either completely wrong, or it’s completely right, then a 6,000 page agreement isn’t going to be like that. And a free trade agreement that has some aspects of free trade, and others that are not, it doesn’t break down that simply.”
“The train has left the station” x3.
I think the phrase is generally used to indicate that it is pointless to remain on the platform shouting at the rails.
yes, I have. Please post something that demonstrates that Labour have ever said anything that hints that they might pull out. Because this isn’t news, it’s always been their position.
lolz. Some of the centrists here might genuinely be puzzled, and some of the righties might be just taking the opportunity to spin, but you of all people know damn well that Labour were never considering pulling out, which makes you the King of the Disingenuous Ones. Still, whatever opportunity there is to poison the well, eh CV?
I’ll see if u can dig a link up later but I was asking about this on ts last year and the sense I had was that it was a given that Labour wouldn’t pull out. Honestly, I am surprised at all the surprise this week.
Labour last year said they would oppose the tppa if their bottom lines weren’t met. Then once the draft was out and they had time to really look at it they came out and said they oppose NZ signing and there is little they could do.
Btw, anyone who thought that last year that if Labour’s five bottom lines weren’t met that meant once in power Labour would pull out needs to put up their rationale. Because when I raised it it wasn’t even a consideration.
A bottom line not being met is generally accepted one won’t be part of any deal. It’s where one generally draws the line. Thus, what else were voters to think?
Labour have been playing on this, trying to appease both sides.
The thing is, it’s resulted in putting a number on the left and right off.
Not pulling out won’t win them much support from the left. And talk of flouting certain aspects of the deal is turning the right off.
Their handling of this has been pathetic and will come back to bite them IMO.
Stating there is little they can do is complete rubbish. There is an exit clause.
Moreover, they could be talking to vested interests now in preparation of pulling out.
Labour’s bottom lines were about whether to support National signing the TPPA or not. They weren’t about what Labour would do once in govt.
If you’re surprised that Labour don’t want to pull out, why were you not asking these questions last year when the issue first came up, including what the implications were of pulling out?
“Moreover, they could be talking to vested interests now in preparation of pulling out.”
Little has said that they are already talking to the signatories in preparation for changing the agreement.
National didn’t require Labours support. There was no vote on the signing of the TPP.
But thanks for highlighting how Labour were playing it.
Personally. I had a feeling Labour were attempting to pull the wool. And questioned it in discussions here.
Little also indicated it was to late to pull out if it passed in the US, suggesting we can’t really pull out even tho there is an exit clause. Therefore, wouldn’t that suggest our sovereignty is already being constrained?
As pulling out will relieve us of the obligations of the deal, they won’t have us over such a barrel. Thus, although they may hit us hard for withdrawing, it won’t be as bad as the long term consequences of remaining in the deal.
The Greens have always said they oppose the TPPA but as far as I am aware have never said they will pull NZ out if it is ratified. Last year in an interview with Jessica Williams (when she was with Radio Live) James Shaw said that it would be easier to renegotiate than withdraw. Since then he has has said they need to study the detail in the full document before detailing future actions other than opposing the ratification.
Labour put up the 5 conditions for support, then said that 4 out of the 5 seem to have been met but there was still the issue of sovereignty. Over the summer Andrew Little examined the full document and was able to persuade the rest of his caucus to oppose the signing of the agreement. This was not easy because of MPs like Goff and Shearer and the influence they had over some caucus members, but Labour has now said they would oppose it in its present form.
Both parties oppose the TPPA, neither have promised to withdraw from it when they are in government, and both have talked about renegotiation.
Labour’s situation is this.
They have always supported the TPPA and have never intended pulling out of it.
Ms Clark’s intervention was a clear signal of that.
But their absolute priority is to be the Government, and they know they cannot be the Government unless they retain the support of 3 disparate groupings: A mid to far left that is sliding ever harder left, core center left Labour voters, and about 6% of centrist voters that don’t currently vote Labour.
The conundrum above explains why they presented as being ‘opposed’ to the TPPA, while simultaneously leaving open the question of whether their opposition extended as far as actually pulling out of it.
They were trying to leave room for all 3 of the vital groupings to believe that Labour might be on their side of the argument.
As the issue evolved, Labour has been very closely attempting to gauge where the overall public sentiment was going on the TPPA (to which side of the fence do you jump?).
The mid to far left clearly resolved this was a bottom line / every man to the barricades / show the maximum opposition we can muster issue.
Labour waited to see if that level of resolution moved through and was expressed strongly among the other 2 more centrist groupings. The turnout on Thursday of only 1000 hard core protestors and 13k peaceful marchers did not indicate this had occurred.
So the day after the TPPA signing, knowing ‘the train had left the station’ and it was time to move on, Labour decided which side of the fence it was best for them to come down on.
So they clarified that they would not withdraw from the TPPA.
That’s the reality folks. You are stuck with the TPPA.
No, sorry I didn’t Weka, but I trust Jessica Williams. She wouldn’t have said that if it wasn’t true, and Shaw has never denied it.
The Green Party have been consistently opposed to the TPPA right through this process but I haven’t found anything that says what they will do if the get into government if it has already been ratified
(and I have looked!!) I think James Shaw is a very careful person and he is unlikely to make any commitments to withdraw until he knows exactly what the repercussions will be for NZ . Very sensible I think, in spite of what some here believe.
Meanwhile the Greens (and now Labour) will oppose the ratification. Unfortunately parliament doesn’t get to decide this – they only get to vote on any law changes that are required.
[lprent: It pays not to request or demand apologies here. I have a tendency to view that kind of behaviour as flame starting. Since I (and the policy) tend to view such flame starters as attempting self-martyrdom. ]
“That’s an outright lie. Not going to bother reading the rest of your comment if that’s what you are doing.”
It is not a lie Weka.
Show me any proof that Labour have ever opposed the TPPA in principle?
If they opposed it, why would they confirm they would not pull out of it?
I think you’re just a bit sour, and don’t want to face up to the reality.
Best way to do that is throw all the toys out of the cot and refuse to play the game eh.
We’re opposed to the TPPA in its current form because compromises to New Zealand’s sovereignty are not justified by the meagre economic gains. A number of Labour people are involved in today’s protests, including MPs who’ve spoken at rallies around the country.
“THAT in light of the Labour Party’s strong commitment to both the benefits of international trade and New Zealand’s national sovereignty, and recognising the far-reaching implications for domestic policy of the proposed Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement, in which trade is only a small part, Labour will support signing such an agreement which: …
(g) Had been negotiated with full public consultation including regular public releases of drafts of the text of the agreement, and ratification being conditional on a full social, environmental and economic impact assessment including public submissions.”
Leader Andrew Little said his party supported free trade but would not back the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) unless the five “non-negotiable bottom lines” were met.
That’s all we have to go on. I agree with your general assement here,
The Green Party have been consistently opposed to the TPPA right through this process but I haven’t found anything that says what they will do if the get into government if it has already been ratified
(and I have looked!!) I think James Shaw is a very careful person and he is unlikely to make any commitments to withdraw until he knows exactly what the repercussions will be for NZ . Very sensible I think, in spite of what some here believe.
Meanwhile the Greens (and now Labour) will oppose the ratification. Unfortunately parliament doesn’t get to decide this – they only get to vote on any law changes that are required.
So what happens when the renegotiation doesn’t achieve your aims? Either you stay in the agreement or you pull out. Which is going to be?
If you start from the position that you are going to stay then the renogiation is going to be a two way street, and have a low probability of success.
The whole TPP process is a mess. What we got was some weak analysis of the benefits and little on the downside of it. There was no BATNA analysis offered. Helen Clark et al got as far as saying it’s better to be in the tent pissing out, but no further. Countries such as Switzerland have avoided too many treaties and done quite well. Whereas North Korea has also avoided treaties but has not done so well.
NZ blew a raspberry to the USA about nuclear weapons back in the 1980’s and the sky did not fall. Mind you we still have chicken little.
The LP established its 5 points bottom line – a good clear easy to understand position. (And I am not going to go into why the points miss my major concerns.)
The LP has conducted its review of the TPP and decided that these bottom lines have not been achieved – a good clear easy to understand position.
It’s likely that it may be a few years before Labour get to be in the position of renegotiating or cancelling the agreement. This time should be productively spent in:
1. Establishing how to fix the NZ constitutional process where the Executive of one government can substantially modify the sovereignty of NZ without full cross party support or general explicit support of a super-majority of the people; and,
2. Put the partners on notice that withdrawal is an option on the table; and,
3. Undertaking a serious review of the TPP agreement to find out what it actually says and means. (I am surprised when people say that they have read the document and understood it as IMO we will soon have lawyers and academics studying it for years and still having disagreements. Its 6,000 pages are highly unlikely not to contain mistakes, internal contradictions, impossibilities and ambiguities); and,
4. Recasting what the 5 bottom line items are (maybe adding to them); whilst,
5. Cataloguing the successes and failures of TPP as it progresses; then,
6. Measure this catalogue against the yardstick; and if it does not measure up then,
7. Take action by seeking a renegotiation with a 6 month automatic withdrawal attached.
And meanwhile there is a tsunami of shit heading the world’s way in terms of economic and environmental issues. It’s only a matter of when this starts to be felt. So when NZ reaches TPP nirvana in 2030 (getting a 0.7% cumulative lift in economic activity) then my guess we should also be hearing the waves of the tsunami or already in its grips. Good timing.
But I don’t disagree with that bit and that’s not what I called a lie. I’ve also stated multiple times today that I’ve known since last year that Labour weren’t considering pulling out.
Lost sheep said “They have always supported the TPPA”. That’s a lie. I’ve explained how here,
Yeah, nah. Lost sheep wanting to run a line and chose to start with a lie and I called them on it. If you want to make out this is about who is technically correct about a sequence of events, have at it. I don’t give a shit. You could have asked, I would have told you, and in the end you did and I did, so what’s the problem? Weird to be using energy on this when it’s Ls that told the actual lie.
Weka, Labour fully support the principal of a TPPA agreement.
They do not support some of the clauses in the current agreement, but, they have confirmed they will not withdraw from the TPPA.
You have only linked to information that indicates Labours objections to some clauses, and linked to nothing that indicates they are against the TPPA principle itself.
Can you please link to any point at which Labour has said they do not support the TPPA in principal, as opposed to just some specific clauses?
Can you explain to me how confirming they will remain in the TPPA, despite their objections to some clauses indicates that Labour does not support the agreement as a whole?
If you can do both of those I will accept I was mistaken.
Can you please link to any point at which Labour has said they do not support the TPPA in principal, as opposed to just some specific clauses?
You didn’t say in principle, you just said they had always supported the TPPA, and I’ve demonstrated that they haven’t. Yes we can have a semantic argument about that but I think the real difference is that I accept that Labour are pro-free trade but I also know that they were dealing with a secret agreement and an internal civil war and so their approach looks odd to people who don’t take that into account. They’ve gone through various processes and changes in their position precisely because the agreement has been secret and been changing. It makes sense as a pro-free trade party that they would take a pro-TPPA stance so long as certain conditions were met, but it’s pretty clear that back in 2012 there were serious concerns about those conditions.
Labour have been playing the middle game, isn’t that what you want? Remind me, do you think Labour should leave the TPPA if it’s already ratified by next time they are in government?
Can you explain to me how confirming they will remain in the TPPA, despite their objections to some clauses indicates that Labour does not support the agreement as a whole?
Pretty simple, and this has been commented on a fair bit. It’s too difficult to leave once in. I don’t hear Labour saying oh the deal is great except for these five things. I hear Labour saying there are serious problems with this deal and there are serious problems with getting out of it. Of course that message comes out in a strangled way because of the neoliberal/left wing split in the party. So while I feel that Labour have been pretty consistent within their own kaupapa over the past few years I can understand that others feel differently.
btw, the difficulty of leaving once in is an issue for the GP too IMO. I don’t know what NZF are thinking. Anyone?
This is a good example of why science and commerce are not to be trusted until they are brought under the control of a third part of society that puts ethics and nature first. In the absence of the precautionary principle, we are currently gambling playing Russian Roulette with some pretty basic fundamentals of life.
Zika is one of the emerging new illnesses associated with human-manipulated environments. It causes birth defects when contracted during pregnancy. 11 cases in NZ so far.
Oxitec’s GM mosquitoes
An excellent article by Claire Bernish published last week on AntiMedia draws attention to an interesting aspect of the matter which has escaped mainstream media attention: the correlation between the incidence of Zika and the area of release of genetically modified Aedes aegypti mosquitos engineered for male insterility (see maps, above right).
The purpose of the release was to see if it controlled population of the mosquitos, which are the vector of Dengue fever, a potentially lethal disease. The same species also transmits the Zika virus.
Brazil is one of the biggest GMO experiments on planet, earth and has had toxic chemicals sprayed over its environment and populations for a generation
The mosquitoes are an extension of the experiment being waged against human rights
Zika has been known of for generations, with few to none ill effects
Zika has been known of for generations, with few to none ill effects
In Africa, where a majority have an immunity developed over many generations.
Not so in the Americas where in little more than a generation aedes aegypti has spread the virus through a large youthful population with an exceptionally high birth rate and no immunity.
The author suggests a mutated virus in Brazil is causing previously unheard of effects…and then I scrolled down….
Author’s note 2: I’m grateful to David Murphy for carrying out this work, and to James Babcock for drawing it to my attention. It appears that the hypothesis set out above is probably incorrect, and this must be a matter of considerable relief to all concerned.
Change of topic folks – Bomber on TDB has just announced he is going to go into competition with Seven Sharp on TV1 and the other show on TV3 with Heather duPlessis Allan at 7pm. It will be live on his site at 7.01 – but its early yet and he is going to announce more later about it.
So we will have an alternative current affairs programme we can go to after John Campbell on Channel 50 each night. What mana from heaven I told Bomber. Can’t wait.
He should stick to providing advice and policy to politicians. Oh, wait… maybe not. 30 minutes of bitter, anti-everything, frothing and ranting is something that I (and 99.99% of the population) will be giving a wide birth.
Ben what a sour puss you are. Don’t you think it would be nice for a change to get some balance into our daily news. Who wants to be fed with constant drivel about sports stars, film stars, your precious leader who can do no wrong, even saints you know do wrong – what’s your beef – so one-eyed you cannot see there are always two sides to anything at all. Your precious government does lots of things which are wrong but if MSM media has anything to do with it nobody in the population gets the opportunity to be informed. What do you want? a dictatorship in this country. Do we have to go back into history and meet in halls or listen to speakers on soap boxes like they do in Hyde Park (or do you even know about Hyde Park) to hear some truth of the matter. Get a grip Ben – all Bomber is trying to do is get some balance and less of the daily tripe we have shoved in our faces each night. You call Bomber a raving leftie – what on earth is your Government if not a raving Right Wing mish mash. What a loser you are and not too intelligent upstairs if you cannot see my argument.
Thankyou for informing us that the flawed TPPA is the fault of the Labour Party.
Your insight into these things is extraordinary. But then, you have the advantage of having the brain of a full time Buffoon. Utter Nonsense dribbles constantly from your twisted mouth like a crazed dog.
Dear Observer (Tokoroa)
I’m afraid you went to sleep on the job, and failed to observe fully as required. This is to advise you that your contract to observe and inform us fully and truthfully has been terminated, though you may like to continue your style of colourfully abusive diatribe, which is very amusing.
edited
What did Labour say about the TPPA? All the fragments of comment, when put together like a jigsaw, do they make a coherent whole? Or is it one of those odd results that we need an Aristotle to explain.
Quote by Aristotle: “The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.”
But is this argument about Labour and TPPA a Reductio ad absurdum?
Wikipedia may provide the answer but I’m not going to read it because I want to listen to Monty Python because it is more fun than the argument that is going nowhere, and isn’t going to solve anything anyway. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
What if the whole is actually lesser than the sum of its parts as it seems to be?
Time to take a break as we sink into The Philosophers’ Song with Monty Python done Oz style.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtgKkifJ0Pw
The Gauche One fretting about the image of cock meeting cock at Waitangi…..gone all around the world etc etc, appalling, blah, pearls, clutched ! Guess he’s not looking forward to the call from some dictator mate calling him a pussy cos’ no summary execution.
No Mr Preen Minster. It was you, the cock that started hauling NZ around the world, makin’ us look like cocks too (cos you’re our Preen Minster)…….it’s that that started it, years ago.
As I’ve always reminded myself…..what the fuck is (self-perceived) venerable Old Auckland Money thinking about this Gauche Nouveau ?
Yep. PM thinks the dildo was appalling! Tut tut. Hypocrisy anyone. Hair pulling. Soap. Dodgy personal habits. He laughs at his own funny behaviour. What a clown making international headlines.
But now Key sucks a lemon.
He is one of John Key’s rented trolls. Part of the Key rented troll assylum. Viper exceeds Hosking. Hooton, Garner, Slater, Farrar, English and Fanny Herald.
Mere screaming teeny weeny toddlers the lot of them.
Oh dear , Mr.Key feels awkward about images of the sex toy/Joyce going around the world. He forgets to feel awkward about signing the treaty under NZers noses, the day before Waitangi day, without even discussing it with us.
Charming!
Not feeling remotely awkward about molesting a young waitress numerous times or publicly advocating peeing in the shower – EWW – Hypocrisy is Mr Key’s game of choice it seems! So embarrassed that a sex toy found it’s way to Stevie’s “moosh”, yet not embarrassed that his repeated molestation of a young waitress went global! An attitude a certain older man who was a French high official would no doubt relate to.
A discussion about how National are prepared to do what Europe is refusing, i.e to trade sovereignty for a few bucks, would you accept a 1% pay rise in 15 years and agree to any decisions you make about your future be subject to secret off shore tribunals, with no right of appeal?
Lets face it if National were honest about their corporate welfare policies, they would not have been voted in anyway, so your point is irrelevant.
What is news are the deplorable rhetorical parries from the UK and Swedish governments, who both stated not just disagreement, but that the Working Group opinion would have absolutely no effect on their actions. This is not what one expects from democratic governments who usually support the UN mechanisms and international law.
Actually, this is exactly what I would expect from them. The powerful think that rules are there simply to punish those that they don’t like. They certainly don’t think that the rules apply to them.
Surprised she didn’t fix it so she was down at the Nines witnessing and excitedly reporting Mr Gauche publicly gagging on successive American hotdogs. Rather than the dull old business of up North experiencing an actual ‘Waitangi Day’. Waitangi Day the way people actually do it up here in the whiningly announced absence of an effete wannabee Yank. Who’s sniffing out Shaun Johnson down Aux right now.
Shaun Johnson’ll be the next unfortunate target…..you watch. The ‘can’t-himself-do’ criminal banker just loves sucking on the sap of NZ heroes. Guess you can demand anything you want when you’ve got that Preen Minster/John Key conjunction.
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Nobody thinks about the next century anymore. That at least is Sci-Fi writer William Gibson’s observation (in this BBC 4 short interview, starting at 1:43:50 ). He calls it “Futures Fatigue”, but isn’t judgemental about it. Gibson notes that in the 20th century speculation about the 21st (and beyond) was common. Now ...
A Labour government desperate for the numbers crawls into bed with Winston Peters. Winston ignores the law and secretly takes money under the table from someone. When it is exposed just months out from an election, he is investigated by the Serious Fraud Office. That's what happened back in 2008. ...
So the Serious Fraud Office has another secret $100,050 National Party donation before the Courts in a major scandal that looks set to quash any chances Simon Bridges had of winning the 2020 election.Yesterday, Newsroom reported:The Serious Fraud Office prosecution of four people over donations to the National Party involves ...
Story of the Week... Toon of the Week... Coming Soon on SkS... Climate Feedback Claim Review... Poster of the Week... SkS Week in Review... Story of the Week... Iceberg twice the size of Washington, D.C., breaks off Pine Island glacier in Antarctica Story Highlights: The Pine Island ...
Prof Philippa Howden-ChapmanHousing policy is building up to be the key election issue again. In this blog I reflect on the importance of the role of the New Zealand Government in improving access to affordable housing. I look at what the Government has been doing to increase quality public housing ...
Writing on The Spinoff, Danyl Mclauchlan argues that we have a vacuum in our political system, in that there is no longer an anti-establishment party anymore:I think there’s a vacuum in our political system. There are obvious problems with the status quo but no real critics offering reform. It’s a ...
Stuff today has a piece about the government discovering it has been oversubsidising polluters for a decade under the Emissions Trading scheme:The Government is pledging to urgently fix an issue within the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS), after it emerged some polluters are likely being over-compensated with taxpayer-funded carbon credits. [...] ...
The Marlborough District Council, tired of public scrutiny, wants to increase the amount it charges for LGOIMA requests:The cost of requesting official information from Marlborough's government agency could almost double after a jump in "fishing expeditions". Charges could be raised from $60 to $100 an hour for information supplied by ...
When Winston Peters was caught money laundering donations and stalking journalists, the Greens were conspicuous by their silence. It was another example of how getting along with their government partners was eroding their values and their own reputation. It was obviously unsustainable, and so now James Shaw has finally spoken ...
I am among the most pro-free speech people I know. I don’t doubt there are others more strident than me, but I’m certainly up there. And my support for freedom of expression isn’t limited to opposition to government-imposed restrictions. It extends to a belief that employers should have limited powers ...
With over 69,000 confirmed cases and 1,600 deaths, here’s your round-up of the latest coronavirus news. New disease and virus have now officially been named On the 11th February, the WHO Director General announced a new name for the disease: COVID-19 which is short for coronavirus disease 2019. The naming ...
A chronological listing of news articles linked to on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week, i.e., Sun, Feb 9, 2020 through Sat, Feb 15, 2020 Editor's Pick ANALYSIS-Climate change opens up 'frontier' farmland, but at what cost to the planet?Climate change could expand farmland globally by ...
After cross-examination Jones knew he would lose the defamation case he took against film maker Renae Maihi. That’s why he threw in the towel. The weight of evidence was clearly against the old tycoon with the defense presenting fifty articles to confirm Jones’ racist views.Being unable to harass somebody into ...
Sprung! Former NZ First president, Lester Gray, chats with RNZ's Guyon Espiner in the carpark of a Tauranga shopping centre.(Photo supplied anonymously to NZ First and The BFD.)IT’S CLEAR THAT an important aspect of Jacinda Ardern’s political success is her willingness to seek – and take – advice. This ...
Ruth Cunningham, Charlotte Paul, Andrew MoorePublic health responses to infectious diseases such as COVID-19 require us to draw on our common humanity and be explicit about our values. Recognising this will help us make good decisions in difficult situations so that, for example, the need to impose restrictive measures ...
The Helen Clark Foundation has released its report on the housing crisis, and found that house-hoarders are to blame for it:Property investors are to blame for New Zealand's high house prices, a new research paper published by the Helen Clark Foundation says. [...] McArthur said previous attempts to address housing ...
The Abortion Legislation Committee has reported back on the Abortion Legislation Bill and recommended that it be passed with some amendments. Unfortunately, the latter include even more hoops to jump through for those seeking abortions after 20 weeks, including a time-wasting requirement to consult a second doctor. No-one casually seeks ...
Brexit is likely to be a disaster for the UK (how sad, never mind). But now that they're out of the EU, the latter has finaly taken the opportunity to blacklist one of their key tax havens:The Cayman Islands, a British overseas territory, is to be put on an EU ...
I’m not quite sure of what to make of the new figures for COVID-19 (as we must now call the novel coronavirus – though I’m not sure the capitalisation is correct) from Hubei province:Image from https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51495484The spike yesterday is a consequence of a using a different way of ...
Bob Jones has dropped his defamation case against Renae Maihi. Good. But at the same time, it perfectly exposes what the case was all about: not protecting Jones' reputation, but punishing someone who had dared to criticise him, and deterring others from doing the same. This rich pompous asshat dragged ...
As I've done for the past few years, I'm curating and presenting The Listening Lounge, the talk programme at Splore. On the morning of Saturday the 22nd at the Living Lounge stage, the korero goes like this.Yes, we're talking about drugs again, not just because I'm professionally interested in drug ...
What Were They Thinking? RNZ's CEO Paul Thompson (left) and Jim Mather, Chairman of the RNZ Board of Governors, attempt to justify the debacle arising out of their attempt to downgrade RNZ Concert to the Economic Development, Science and Innovation Select Committee at Parliament on Thursday, 13 February 2020.WHAT IS ...
Dame Tariana Turia with former PM John KeyWhat is it about Tariana Turia’s grudge against the Labour Party? Not content with attacking the Government over Whānau Ora funding, which was increased by $80 million in 2019, she has now made it personal by saying that Jacinda Ardern is out of her ...
Back in 2017, right after being elected, Jacinda Ardern promised that there would be no new mines on conservation land. Since then, her government has done nothing to make that happen, and now the policy has been officially "parked" for the election:West Coast-Tasman MP Damien O'Connor says the "no new ...
So the guy who advocated for public burning and beheading feels offended because someone called him a racist!Perhaps Bob Jones hasn't heard of the very old saying; Live by the sword, die by the sword?I mean for someone who often writes opinionated nonsense about Maori; this is a ridiculous case ...
The government today announced a major support package aimed at reducing homelessness. A thousand new transitional housing places, more support for people to find homes (or not lose them in the first place), all good stuff. The one problem with it is that they're going to start charging people in ...
Courtroom Drama: There is no off-switch in a courtroom. Neither is it possible to turn the page in disgust. Ill-formed and ill-defended opinions will be exposed ruthlessly and unapologetically. As Shakespeare put it: “Reputation is an idle and most false imposition; oft got without merit, and lost without deserving.” Sometimes the ...
As of today, the novel coronavirus spreading in China is called COVID-19. Why does it matter? Around the office, we’ve had several conversations over the past few weeks about how 2019-nCoV needed its own name. First, it was getting annoying calling it by the above designation, and ‘novel coronavirus’ doesn’t ...
by Philip Ferguson Last month B’Tselem, the Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, reported: “In 2019, Israeli security forces killed 133 Palestinians, including 28 minors. Of the casualties, 104 were killed in the Gaza Strip, 26 in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and three within ...
A ballot for a single Member's Bill was held today, and the following bill was drawn: Arms (Firearms Prohibition Orders) Amendment Bill (No 2) (Brett Hudson)Its basicly more "tough on crime" nonsense (its already illegal for unlicensed people to own guns) designed to wedge NZ First against its arsehole base. ...
In 2015 the world agreed to the Paris Agreement to fight climate change. Each country would offer a Nationally Determined Contribution (NDC) "that it intends to achieve", and "pursue domestic mitigation measures, with the aim of achieving [it]". And every five years, they'd improve on it, ratcheting up ambition until ...
In theory, the emissions trading scheme should reduce emissions. Making polluters pay for permits to pollute lets them save money by reducing pollution, giving them a financial incentive to do the right thing. But right from the start the ETS was broken with a system of free allocation, so polluters ...
Irish voters went to the polls on Saturday in parliamentary elections, and perhaps delivered a political revolution. Since independence, Irish politics has been dominated by two parties, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. Basicly patronage networks with indistinguishable policies, their cleavage isn't ideology, but who killed whose father or grandfather in ...
Once again the Aotearoa Bike Challenge is on us, and once again I’m participating. In principle this is not hard because it does not represent a significant switch in behavior for me. I already bike nearly every day. The Bicycle The fascinating thing about cycling is the realisation that this ...
Lately there has been a great deal of misinformation regarding the origins and purpose of Skeptical Science. As John Cook wrote nearly a decade ago, Skeptical Science is primarily a website that debunks climate misinformation with peer-reviewed science. Despite the ever-worsening impacts from climate change, with record after record being broken in ...
Under Attack: By sacking not only RNZ Concert’s presenters, but also its producers and librarians, and reducing the station to an automated purveyor of classical music in-between parliamentary broadcasts, RNZ’s CEO, Paul Thompson, wasn’t simply announcing an operational shake-up, he was declaring war on one of the most important guardians of ...
Story of the Week... Editorial of the Week... Toon of the Week... Quote of the Week... Coming Soon on SkS... Climate Feedback Reviews... SkS Week in Review... Poster of the Week... Story of the Week... Australian smoke plume sets recordsThe recent wildfires in Australia sent one of ...
The Global Protest to #FightInequality was powerful – thankyou and what next? Dear allies, We started the decade with a huge protest to #FightInequality that was heard around the world, including the 1% at Davos. Watch and share the highlights on facebook and twitter. A huge thank you. Together we ...
The Ministry of Health have announced a package that might ensure NZ will never experience another measles epidemic. While at the time of writing the details are still limited it appears that the important limitations in our current programme have been acknowledged and the intent is to address them. Great ...
Prof Nick Wilson, Prof Michael BakerIn this blog we briefly summarise our assessment of the highly uncertain new coronavirus threat. Given its potential to become a severe and prolonged global pandemic, a precautionary response now means activating all components of our pandemic plan, with a particular focus on ‘keep ...
When Labour was running for election, Jacinda Ardern famously said that climate change was "my generation's nuclear free moment". The implication was that her government would take the problem seriously, and act swiftly to reduce emissions. The reality:New Zealand will emit a million more tonnes of greenhouse gases in 2020 ...
James Renwick is Professor of Physical Geography at Victoria University of Wellington. He studied at Canterbury and the University of Washington and has worked on diverse aspects of climate science, including global atmospheric circulation and Antarctic sea ice. In December 2019 he was appointed to the New Zealand Climate Change ...
by Philip Ferguson Exit polls are showing a three-way virtual tie between the main parties in the south of Ireland. Sinn Fein, Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are all on just over 22%. FG on 22.4, SF on 22.3, FF on 22.2. Exit polls indicate that over 30% of 18-24 ...
A chronological listing of news articles linked to on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week, i.e., Sun, Feb 2, 2020 through Sat, Feb 8, 2020 Editor's Pick New Report Details How Fossil Fuel Industry's Climate Destruction Also Exacerbates Human Rights Abuses"Even in the face of the ...
In a previous post I described briefly when and how the Starlink satellite chains – recent launches by Space-X in a scheme to bring 5G internet connectivity to the whole globe – could be seen from New Zealand with the naked eye. Here I provide an update and predictions for ...
Keeping The Faith: This Government’s broad, new, heavily moderated, progressive faith does not require a prime minister with the powers of a medieval pope. Jacinda’s regime has no need of subterranean torture chambers to ensure compliance. A gift for diplomacy and the ability to inspire her fellow human-beings is all ...
Jonathan Freedland of the Guardian has penned a column which chastises the left wing of the Labour party for daring to retain principles and ideals, qualities - it seems - that should be jettisoned in pursuit of power.Never mind that Freedland was an ardent Remainer, that is to say, one ...
Tonight’s news suggests the coronavirus outbreak may have originated from pangolins. Details are very sketchy, almost nothing at all beyond a claim of high similarity. My impression is this claim comes from a press release by South China Agricultural University. Initial discussion online suggests this is a more likely candidate ...
by Susanne Kemp The Fire and Emergency service (FENZ) has recently asked firefighters in Auckland Areas 3, 4 and 5 to take on an additional duty that has rather ominous implications. Namely, to collect names and addresses of everyone on the premises of fires they attend. The firefighters’ union, the ...
Part of the story of the Nazis' rise to power in Germany was the willingness of mainstream right-wing parties to work with them to keep out the left. Because of this, one of the fundamental rules of postwar German politics has been "do not work with Nazis". As a result, ...
There has long been a truism in public broadcasting: don't mess with Concert FM. The theory was that although the station has been in a long-term audience decline, and that audience is steadily ageing out, it has powerful establishment support – and any threat to it would provoke a fury.As ...
This is a re-post from the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists The heat absorbed in Earth’s oceans reached a new record in 2019, found a recent study published in the journal Advances in Atmospheric Sciences. Despite the fact that this has been the case for almost every year over the past decade, this information ...
We are confronted with the spectre of Simon Bridges making clear he cannot, will not, trust Winston Peters – the oft-cited “King Maker” in New Zealand politics.Supporters are lauding it as a master stroke, naturally, because in their eyes, it prevents him being the tail that wags the dog. ...
by Don Franks Under a government claiming empathy with the fine arts, Radio New Zealand ( RNZ) is poised to cut back its classical music station, RNZ Concert. The plan is replacing it on FM radio with music “for a younger audience” as part of a new multimedia music brand. ...
More Thwaites This past week we heard disturbing news about Antarctica's Thwaites Glacier. Helping to fill in the longer term history of Thwaites' behavior and especially helpful in interpreting results of the recent drilling project and what it may say about the future of this unstable mass of ice is Revealing the ...
Inaccuracies are very common in scientific paper abstracts. Image credit:Science in the Abstract: Don’t Judge a Study by its Cover I have come to accept anti-fluoride campaigners will never stop cherry-picking research and findings ...
“The scene is set, the players met…”. And what players they are in this farce of an Election coming up in the United States this year. There is a multi-faceted anger in the broader situation the world finds itself in, in which the false promises of so-called “moderates” find themselves ...
A few years ago, a company lowballed a contract to dispose of toxic waste from the Tiwai Point aluminium smelter. So, they dumped it in a disused paper mill in Mataura, then went into liquidation - effectively dumping the problem on local councils. The waste is dangerous - it releases ...
Regional Economic Development Minister Shane Jones was on RNZ’s Morning Report talking about the recent droughts in the Northland region and what the Provincial Growth Fund (PGF) is doing to alleviate its impact. The PGF recently announced a funding of $2 million for temporary water supplies to Kaikohe and Kaitaia, ...
Speaking to The Country’s Jamie Mackay, New Zealand First MP and Cabinet Minister Shane Jones talks water storage, plant-based meat imitation, and superstar Hollywood director James Cameron. While water storage may have its critics, Minister Jones defended the scheme by saying: “unless we invest and continue to invest” in this ...
Regional Economic Development Minister Shane Jones is accusing northern iwi leaders of selling out Māori by voting for ideologically-driven court cases rather than practical steps to increase water supply. “I just think that iwi leaders who think that water issues are going to be solved by perpetually fighting in the ...
A dairy owner in St Kilda, Dunedin was delighted to hear that an attempted robbery of his establishment was foiled by a government-funded security system. Sean Lee was delighted at how well the anti-theft smoke system worked. When a knife-wielding man entered the store, the shop assistant immediately pressed a ...
Customs says it stopped more than three tonnes of illegal drugs coming into New Zealand last year. This includes 1,180kg of methamphetamine, 329kg of ephedrine and pseudoephedrine precursors, which could have been converted into 246kg of methamphetamine, 739kg and 6469 pills of MDMA or Ecstasy and 60kg of cocaine. Offshore, ...
Hon. Shane Jones, Minister for Regional Economic Development Up to $2 million will be allocated from the Provincial Growth Fund to set up temporary water supplies in Kaikohe and Kaitaia where drought is biting hard, Regional Economic Development Minister Shane Jones has announced. Drought conditions in Northland have led to ...
Darroch Ball, Spokesperson for Law and Order New Zealand First welcomes the deployment of an Eagle Police helicopter in Christchurch in what is a step towards fulfilling its long-standing goal to increase the use of police helicopters for the front line, particularly in addressing the scourge of fleeing drivers. Christchurch leads ...
It may have been the first sitting week of 2020, but our Government is already in full-swing - managing a strong economy, investing in infrastructure, and working to break the cycle of homelessness. Read below for all that, and more... ...
In a heated debate in Parliament, National's Deputy Leader Paula Bennett claimed that “nearly 1600 patched gang members have been added” since the Coalition Government took power. To illustrate her point, she altered a chart used by Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern to show her government’s progress in housing to instead ...
Speech by the Rt Hon Winston Peters at Parliament’s Opening 2020 "We all need insurance" This year New Zealanders are going to have a clear choice to make That choice is between: Optimism versus pessimism; More progress versus back to the future; Investment versus divestment; Unity versus division. New Zealand ...
Infrastructure Minister Shane Jones has slammed the Board of Auckland Airport following the airport's runway closing twice within two weeks due to maintenance. Around 2,000 passengers were affected by last week’s runway closures, according to 1NEWS. Another maintenance closure on January 24 saw two international flights and three domestic flights ...
Jenny Marcroft, Spokesperson for Broadcasting New Zealand First supports the commissioning of a business case to assess the viability of a new public media entity. “A strong media environment is critical for a healthy democracy. New Zealand First is a strong supporter of a diverse, independent media,” New Zealand First broadcasting spokesperson ...
Pounamou and technology industries in the West Coast region are set to receive more than $2 million in Provincial Growth Fund (PGF) funding. This was announced by the Under-Secretary for Regional Economic Development Fletcher Tabuteau during Waitangi Day commemorations in Hokitika. He said $800,000 would be given to Development West ...
Clayton Mitchell MP, New Zealand First spokesperson for Labour and Industrial Relations Unemployment and wage growth numbers released by Stats NZ today demonstrate a labour market in good shape with unemployment falling to 4.0%, the underutilisation rate falling to an 11 year low, and wage growth at a 10-year high ...
Hon. Ron Mark, New Zealand First Spokesperson for Defence New Zealand First Spokesperson for Defence Ron Mark, welcomes the official opening of Te Rau Aroha, a new museum at Waitangi Treaty Grounds as part of our Coalition Agreement. “It is a great honour to be part of an effective Government ...
Rt. Hon. Winston Peters, Deputy Prime MinisterGood morning,Let us start with important acknowledgements.First, this special day, in remembrance of the 28th Maori Battalion, is also to honour all those men and women who have risked their lives in the service of our country.Second, special guest Robert ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters says New Zealand will look to build on its relationship with the United Kingdom and recommit to the European Union, after the country officially left the continental union recently. The Minister said New Zealand already cooperates closely with Britain on defence and security issues and has ...
Rt. Hon. Winston Peters, Deputy Prime Minister, Minister for Foreign Affairs The Government has agreed with Air New Zealand to charter an aircraft to assist New Zealanders leaving Wuhan, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. The aircraft will have capacity for around 300 passengers and will fly from Wuhan to ...
Tougher penalties for gun crime are a step closer with the passage of firearms reform legislation through another stage in Parliament. The Arms Legislation Bill has tonight passed its Second Reading. “The changes have one objective - to prevent firearms falling into the wrong hands,” said Police Minister Stuart Nash. ...
Introduction Mr Speaker We all know why we are here today. It has been a long journey. The journey did not actually begin on 15 March 2019. It began on 30 June 1997. Almost 23 years ago, Justice Sir Thomas Thorp told us what was wrong with our firearms legislation. ...
The Government’s work to put trades and vocational education back on the agenda took another major step forward today with the passing of the Education (Vocational Education and Training Reform) Amendment Bill, Education Minister Chris Hipkins said. “This is a watershed day for trades and vocational education. These law changes formalise ...
Speeding up the return of Christchurch regeneration activities to local leadership is behind the Greater Christchurch Regeneration Amendment Bill introduced to Parliament today by Minister Megan Woods. “As we approach nine years since the February 2011 earthquake in Canterbury, and with the transition to local leadership well underway, the time ...
Hundreds of New Zealanders and international visitors will be able to get back out into nature with the Milford Track partially reopening next week, after extensive assessments and repairs, the Minister of Conservation Eugenie Sage announced today. The popular Great Walk has been closed since 3 February after an extreme ...
Up to 110 new EV chargers nationwide in cities and regions 50 electric vehicles for ride-sharing The Government is helping deliver more infrastructure and options for low emissions transport through new projects, Energy and Resources Minister Dr Megan Woods says. Tauranga, Nelson, Levin, New Plymouth and Oamaru are just some ...
New Zealanders are increasingly better off under this Government as wages rise and families have more disposable income, Finance Minister Grant Robertson says. Stats NZ reported today that average household disposable incomes after housing costs rose 4.9% in 2019. This was the highest rise in four years and came as ...
All New Zealanders need to have their voices heard at work to ensure we have an inclusive and productive economy. Today we introduce a Bill to do this for workers in the New Zealand screen industry, Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Iain Lees-Galloway says. “The Screen Industry Workers Bill will ...
The Government has announced further help for the Southland and Otago regions to speed up recovery efforts from the floods. “I’ve approved Enhanced Taskforce Green (ETFG), making $500,000 available to help with the clean-up in Fiordland, Southland, and the Clutha district in Otago,” Minister for Social Development Carmel Sepuloni said. ...
Following the announcement that more than 340 schools will be funded to run events promoting vocational education, the Government has announced it will fund a further 257 events to be run by employers and industry. “These industry-run events will allow more than 30,000 students to connect with more than 2,000 ...
Today the Government is making progress on a fairer and more secure rental market for renters and landlords with the introduction of the Residential Tenancies Amendment Bill in Parliament. “This Bill includes a series of reforms to improve the wellbeing of the 609,700 households that live in rented homes, and ...
A Government programme to wipe out pea weevil has achieved a world first, with Biosecurity Minister Damien O’Connor today announcing the successful eradication of the noxious pest from Wairarapa. This means the nearly four-year ban on pea plants and pea straw was lifted today. Commercial and home gardeners can again grow ...
Southland residents hit by flooding caused by heavy rainfall can now access help finding temporary accommodation with the Government activating the Temporary Accommodation Service, Minister of Civil Defence Peeni Henare announced today. “The Temporary Accommodation Service (TAS) has been activated by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment to help ...
“Is that it?” That’s Finance Minister Grant Robertson’s response to Simon Bridges’ much-hyped economic speech today. “Simon Bridges just gave the most over-hyped and under-delivered speech that I can remember during my time in politics,” Grant Robertson said. “It’s not surprising. Simon Bridges literally said on the radio this morning ...
A trial deployment of the Police Eagle helicopter in Christchurch will test whether the aircraft would make a significant difference to crime prevention and community safety. “The Bell 429 helicopter will be based in Christchurch for five weeks, from 17 February to 20 March,” said Police Minister Stuart Nash. “The ...
The Government has kept up the pace of its work to promote New Zealand’s trade interests and diversify our export markets, with visits to Fiji and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) by Trade and Export Growth Minister David Parker. Building momentum to bring the PACER Plus trade and development agreement ...
The Coalition Government’s investment in a strong border and disrupting transnational organised crime produced record results for stopping drugs in 2019, says Minister of Customs Jenny Salesa. The illegal drugs were seized at the New Zealand border by Customs, and overseas by Customs’ international border partners before the drugs could ...
Transport Minister Phil Twyford today kicked off construction of a separated cycleway alongside Tamaki Drive. A two-way separated cycleway will be built along the northern side of Tamaki Drive, between the Quay Street Cycleway extension and Ngapipi Road. There will be a separate walking path alongside. Phil Twyford said giving ...
Owner-occupiers of unit and apartments living in earthquake-prone buildings will have certainty about the financial support they’ll be eligible for with the release of criteria for an upcoming assistance scheme, Minister for Building and Construction Jenny Salesa says. The Residential Earthquake-Prone Building Financial Assistance Scheme will help unit owners facing ...
Temporary restrictions on travel from China will remain in place as a precautionary measure to protect against the spread of the COVID-19 coronavirus. The restrictions which prevent foreign nationals travelling from, or transiting through, mainland China from entering New Zealand have been extended for a further 8 days. This position ...
Employment Minister Willie Jackson announced today that Tairāwhiti rangatahi will benefit from an investment made by the Government’s He Poutama Rangatahi (HPR) scheme. The funding will go to the Tautua Village, Kauneke programme and the Matapuna Supported Employment Programme which will fund 120 rangatahi over two years. “Both programmes work ...
All parents and caregivers need to ensure that their children go to school unless they are sick, Associate Education Minister Tracey Martin said today. “The school attendance results for 2019 show, across the board, a drop in the number of students going to school regularly,” the Minister says. “Apart from ...
A Deed of Settlement agreeing redress for historical Treaty claims has been signed by the Crown and Moriori at Kōpinga Marae on Rēkohu (Chatham Islands) today, Minister for Treaty of Waitangi Negotiations Andrew Little has announced. Moriori have a tradition of peace that extends back over 600 years. This settlement ...
Transport Minister Phil Twyford today with Māori King Tuheitia Pōtatau Te Wherowhero VII officially opened the country’s newest road, the $384 million Huntly section of the Waikato Expressway. The 15km four-lane highway with side and central safety barriers takes State Highway 1 east of Huntly town, across lowlands and streams ...
The rapid uptake of life-saving new hepatitis C medicine Maviret since it was funded by PHARMAC a year ago means the elimination of the deadly disease from this country is a realistic goal, Health Minister David Clark says. Hepatitis C is a blood-borne virus which attacks the liver, proving fatal ...
Kaupapa Māori will underpin the Government’s new plan to deal with homelessness announced by the Prime Minister in Auckland this morning. “Māori are massively overrepresented among people experiencing homelessness, so, to achieve different outcomes for Māori, we have to do things very differently,” says the Minister of Māori Development ...
1000 new transitional housing places delivered by end of year to reduce demand for emergency motel accommodation. Introduce 25% of income payment, after 7 days, for those in emergency motel accommodation to bring in line with other forms of accommodation support. Over $70m extra to programmes that prevents those at ...
Clear requirements for ensuring customers are treated fairly by banks, insurers and other financial service providers are included in new financial conduct legislation that passed its first reading today. “The recent reviews, by the Financial Markets Authority (FMA) and Reserve Bank of New Zealand, into the conduct of banks and ...
Applications are now open for the fifth round of the Regional Culture and Heritage Fund Associate Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Grant Robertson announced today. “I am delighted to open this year’s fund which has some $7 million available to support performing arts venues, galleries, museums and whare ...
The Minister of Māori Development, Hon Nanaia Mahuta today congratulated Associate Professor Amokura Kawharu on her appointment as the next President of the Law Commission. “Amokura Kawharu will be a standout in her new role, leading in an innovative and forward looking approach to the law reform process. She will ...
Auckland University legal academic Amokura Kawharu has been appointed as the next President of the Law Commission, Justice Minister Andrew Little announced today. Associate Professor Kawharu will take up her new appointment on 11 May 2020. “I would like to congratulate Associate Professor Kawharu on her appointment,” Andrew ...
A programme for employers to help them engage effectively with younger employees was launched today by Minister of Employment, Willie Jackson. The Youth Ready Employer Programme contains a range of on-line templates that employers can easily access to help with employing and retaining young people in their businesses. The programme ...
Budget 2020 will be delivered on Thursday 14 May, Finance Minister Grant Robertson announced today. “This year’s Budget will continue the Coalition Government’s focus on tackling the long-term challenges facing New Zealand while also preparing the economy for the future. “Those challenges and opportunities cannot be resolved in one budget, ...
I move, That this House place on record its appreciation and thanks for the devoted and distinguished service to New Zealand by the late Rt Hon Michael Kenneth Moore, member of the Order of New Zealand, a member of Her Majesty's Most Honourable Privy Council, an Honorary Member of the ...
Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor has today classified the drought conditions in Northland as an adverse event for the primary sector, unlocking $80,000 in Government support. “This is recognition that the extreme and prolonged nature of this dry spell is taking its toll on our farmers and growers and additional support ...
The Minister of Police says an operation to smash a trans national drug smuggling ring today will make a significant impact on the methamphetamine trade fuelling harm in our communities. Police have announced 10 arrests and the seizure of up to five million dollars’ worth of illicit drugs after an ...
The Government’s books are in a strong position to withstand global headwinds, with the accounts in surplus and expenses close to forecast, Finance Minister Grant Robertson says. The Treasury today released the Crown accounts for the six months to December. The operating balance before gains and losses (OBEGAL) was above ...
Race courses can improve safety with this year’s second round of funding from the Racing Safety Development Fund. Minister for Racing Winston Peters has announced the second funding round of 2019/20 is open with $347,875 available for distribution. “The racing industry is integral to the economic and social fabric of ...
Hundreds of thousands of young adults will be offered measles vaccinations in a new campaign to strengthen New Zealand’s immunisation system, Associate Health Minister Julie Anne Genter said at its launch in Auckland today. “About 300,000 young adults aged between 15 and 29 are not fully protected against measles, and ...
The Government is committing $300,000 to fund research to update behavioural information to make sure HIV and STI prevention services are targeted appropriately in New Zealand. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Finance Minister Grant Robertson made the announcement at today’s Big Gay Out in Auckland. “There is much talk about ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Rowan Callick, Industry Fellow, Griffith University Brand “People’s Republic of China” is wobbling, as if the massive picture of Mao Zedong in Tiananmen Square was swaying with an earthquake tremor. But it can only actually fall if pushed from inside. The handling ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrea Waling, Research fellow, La Trobe University Older lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex (LGBTI+) people fear discrimination, exclusion and isolation in Australia’s aged care services, we found in our research. With an ageing cohort of LGBTI+ people needing to access, and ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kevin Tolhurst, Hon. Assoc. Prof., Fire Ecology and Management, University of Melbourne When it comes to reducing the extent of bushfires, scientists disagree on the best way to do it. Hazard-reduction burning (also known as “prescribed burning” or “controlled burning”) is controversial ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Stanley, Adjunct Professor, Institute of Transport and Logistics Studies, University of Sydney Business School, University of Sydney We were heavily involved in the consultation program for Melbourne’s long-term land-use plan, Plan Melbourne. The idea that resonated most with many participants was ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Dr Michael X. Savvas, Senior Lecturer in the Transition Office (PhD in Creative Writing), Flinders University A recent project to encourage South Australian prisoners to write provides insights into how prisoners may benefit from written expression. The project, Life Sentences, gave more ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Wallace Boone Law, PhD Candidate, University of Adelaide On the night of January 9 2020, my wife and I secured our Kangaroo Island home and anxiously monitored the South Australian Country Fire Service (CFS) website for bushfire advice. After many horrific weeks ...
In today’s edition: Jami-Lee Ross is confirmed as one of four charged by SFO, a damning international report on the NZ housing crisis, and SkyCity cancels a booking for Peter Singer event.SFO–JLR is not just an unlikely long-haul flight from California to India, but the latest instalment in the ...
The author of a novel set in racy, racist Hawke’s Bay writes about the experiences and stories that make up his book. Ten years old and I’m walking with my grandfather to the Farmers Tearooms in Hastings. At the entrance we meet a man whose house has recently burnt down. ...
A major report by the Auditor-General on how councils manage drinking, storm and waste waters found an incoherent, disorganised and stagnant system unprepared for climate change Auditor-General John Ryan found so much lacking in our water management systems he chose to start his final report on it by listing the ...
Child victims of a notorious North Island psychiatric hospital are still doubtful charges will be laid. David Williams reports Police are reviewing their file on Lake Alice psychiatrist Selwyn Leeks in the wake of a landmark decision by a United Nations committee. In December, the Committee against Torture issued a ...
When New Zealand hosts the Rugby World Cup - for the first time in this hemisphere – in 2021, it will mean so much to the Black Ferns, both present and past. To outsiders, it may have been surprising to watch Kendra Cocksedge taking a moment to hold back her ...
Climate change and carbon footprints, political unrest, global epidemics – what does it all mean for the future of tourism? While the crystal ball is murky, futurologist Associate Professor Ian Yeoman from Te Herenga Waka—Victoria University of Wellington’s School of Management has some ideas about how the sector may change ...
The amount of methane emissions for which humans are responsible could be as much as 40% higher than thought. What does that mean for the fight against climate change? New international research suggests that the volume of methane emissions humans are producing is dramatically higher than previously thought. The findings, which ...
SkyCity yesterday pulled the plug on hosting philosopher and academic Peter Singer’s event after disability rights advocates expressed strong objections to his views. They’re right to be angry with him, but he nevertheless deserves to be heard, argues Danyl Mclauchlan.Athoughtful piece on The Spinoff yesterday explored the disabled community’s ...
There's nearly 10,000 tonnes of potentially toxic waste causing anger and anxiety in a tiny Southland town. We look at the secret deal that put it there, and the battle against a faceless entity to get rid of it. Mataura used to be a paper mill town. Nowadays the old ...
The Prime Minister has tried to relieve mounting pressure on China and New Zealand's bilateral relationship at a Chinese New Year Celebration at Parliament. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Larissa Christensen, Lecturer in Criminology & Justice | Co-leader of the Sexual Violence Research and Prevention Unit (SVRPU), University of the Sunshine Coast This week’s ABC’s Four Corners exposed an elite Melbourne school for failing to adequately respond to the grooming of ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Trish Luker, Senior lecturer, University of Technology Sydney Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander readers are advised this article contains the names and voices of deceased people. When was the last time you signed your name? Perhaps you are more familiar with the ...
“Oranga Tamariki have remained silent on their role in this horrific situation,” a Māori leader tells Melanie Reid and Bonnie Sumner. A respected Hawke’s Bay kaumatua, who has been supporting the whānau whānui of a four-year-old boy being treated in hospital for brain injuries, says Oranga Tamariki needs to take responsibility ...
*Watch Melanie Reid's full interview in the video player above* Oranga Tamariki stands accused of returning a four-year-old who had been previously badly injured within a Flaxmere household to the same home, where he has since been severely injured again. It allegedly did so without full consultation with the wider whānau, some ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Roy Green, Emeritus Professor & UTS innovation adviser, University of Technology Sydney The only surprise about the termination of the Holden brand in Australia was that it caused such surprise. This was the final nail in an already empty coffin, given local ...
The owners of the disputed land at Ihumātao say for seven months they've halted development at the request of the Prime Minister, but that can't continue indefinitely. ...
Big Tech companies like Microsoft have raised the spectre of geo-blocking NZ if the Government proceeds with a bill for classifying streamed content. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Grant Williamson, Research Fellow in Environmental Science, University of Tasmania As bushfires in New South Wales are finally contained, attention is turning to nature’s recovery. Green shoots are sprouting and animals are returning. But we must accept that in some cases, the ...
Are you a time-poor urban apartment-dweller who’s put composting in the too-hard basket? Read on…About half of what Aucklanders chuck in their rubbish bins is actually compostable material. That means a whopping 90,000 tonnes of Auckland households’ food waste ends up in landfill each year. Why is that a problem? ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Matthew Fuller-Tyszkiewicz, Associate Professor, Psychology, Deakin University Snapchat has announced a new feature called “Here For You” that promises to “provide proactive in-app support to Snapchatters who may be experiencing a mental health or emotional crisis”. The popular youth-oriented app is the ...
Dr Bryce Edwards.A very concerning element of the current NZ First donations scandal is the role of lobbying and lobbyists close to the Government. The most recent story from RNZ’s Guyon Espiner and Kate Newton, revealed that lobbyist Doug Woolerton, who is also a trustee of the NZ First ...
“The visit by the UN Special Rapporteur on the right to adequate housing has reinforced the need to view good, affordable homes as a fundamental human right – and highlighted what needs to happen to ensure all New Zealanders are well-housed,” says Scott ...
The government has announced a ban on electricity retailers using promotions to lure back customers who’ve changed companies. Flick Electric’s Nikki Cockburn explains why this is a victory for consumers and competition. Progress on the Electricity Price Review (EPR) might be slow – especially when it comes to putting recommendations into ...
Acculturation – the cultural modification of an individual, group, or people by adapting to or borrowing traits from another culture or a merging of cultures – is increasingly evident in this country’s public agencies. The Reserve Bank of New Zealand has not escaped the process. In July 2018, soon after ...
Pacific Media Watch The Philippines top state lawyer has filed a lawsuit against the country’s key television broadcaster with “guns blazing” but he ought to be devoting more effort on governance, says Rappler co-founder and managing editor Glenda M. Gloria. Gloria, who has been announced as a keynote speaker ...
The Electricity Authority says the ban on power companies offering better deals to customers who want to switch should bring down power prices. From 21 March the authority will ban the so-called win-backs offered to customers within 180 days of leaving their original supplier. Figures show 435,000 consumers switched suppliers ...
This is a press statement from UN Special Rapporteur on the right to housing at the end of her 10-day visit to New Zealand. The Government of New Zealand has recognized that the country is facing a housing crisis, said Leilani Farha, UN Special Rapporteur ...
Fletcher Building is hopeful the Ihumātao land dispute can be resolved soon but says it cannot hold off indefinitely. Presenting the construction company's half-year results to the end of December 2019 chief executive Ross Taylor said it has been a complex situation. But the company said in a presentation that ...
The telecommunications company Spark has made a larger profit off a big boost in mobile sales, with the company's bottom line rising 9.2 percent to $167 million in the six months ended December. Revenue rose 4 percent to $1.82 billion with increased margins in the mobile, broadband and cloud divisions. ...
Chief Human Rights Commissioner, Paul Hunt, welcomes the release of the preliminary findings of the UN Special Rapporteur on the right to adequate housing, Leilani Farha, today, and looks forward to giving her recommendations careful consideration. “Ms ...
Former National MP Jami-Lee Ross, has been named today as one of the four people facing Serious Fraud Office charges in relation to two $100,000 donations made to the National Party. ...
Former National MP Jami-Lee Ross is one of the four men charged by the Serious Fraud Office in the National Party donations case - alongside a Chinese community leader who reportedly gave $100,000 to the party, and two others. Name suppression for Ross and his co-accused Zhang Yikun, Zheng Shijia, ...
Almost a third of middle-aged New Zealanders have tried methamphetamine at least once, according to a new University of Otago, Christchurch study looking at the link between using the drug and violence in the general population. The study found those ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Theresa Larkin, Lecturer Medical Sciences, University of Wollongong Why don’t burns bleed? – from the year three and four students at Islington Public School in NSW Hello year three and four students – thanks for your excellent question! To ...
The report details an unannounced follow-up inspection, the first in a new phase of inspections of all 18 New Zealand prisons by the Office of the Inspectorate. This follows the first phase of inspections, where all prisons were inspected in a process ...
Netflix’s new release Horse Girl promised a quirky indie dramedy from its trailer. In reality, it’s a nightmarish time-warped look into the mind of a mental illness sufferer, writes Alice Webb-Liddall.There was a horse girl in every primary school classroom. The one with ballet flats and low ponytails and books ...
You may not be punching strangers’ seats, but there’s plenty of other behaviour that is guaranteed to make your fellow passengers seethe with rage. Here’s how to travel by plane without making people hate you.You’ve probably seen the video: a woman leans back in her reclined seat as a man ...
Earmarked for big things since she left high school, the ‘Nothing to Regret’ singer has been dealing with the weight of expectations for a while now. With her debut EP just released, she’s OK with where she’s at.Given the circumstances, Robinson is surprisingly relaxed. It’s early afternoon on a swelteringly ...
By Meriba Tulo in Port Moresby Over the past month, the Autonomous Bougainville Government has made known its intention to put forward several proposed amendments to the Bougainville House of Representatives. These amendments include a provision to allow for a president to serve for more than two terms – ...
New Zealand’s Catholic bishops are concerned that unborn babies will lose their existing tenuous legal rights if Parliament passes the Abortion Legislation Bill in the form proposed by a select committee. And unborn babies with a fetal disability ...
Younger voters are being encouraged to take time now to make sure they are enrolled and ready to vote in this year’s election and referendums. The Electoral Commission’s enrolment teams will be at orientation events at universities, polytechnics and wānanga ...
FIRST Union’s Real Work Real Jobs campaign is expanding its focus to include ‘gig economy’ workers like Uber drivers and dependent contractors, with the public release of the union’s submission on the Government’s Better Protections for Contractors ...
Linda Burgess climbs the eternal staircase at the Opera House in Wellington to watch the virtuoso actor. At the interval her legs are aching. But in the second half, magic happens.There’s one person wearing a face mask, just the one, and it turns his face into a disposable nappy with ...
National Party leader Simon Bridges says the Serious Fraud Office investigation into the New Zealand First Foundation adds weight to calls for Winston Peters to be stood down. ...
Tutors at Northtec have begun strike action this week, action that will be disruptive for the institution and students. “Tutors never want to affect their students in negative ways, but they want their employer to show respect and put a decent pay ...
Dairy prices have fallen again in the latest global dairy auction, as the coronavirus outbreak takes its toll on trade. The average price at the overnight auction fell by almost 3 percent to $US3176 a tonne. Following a 4.7 percent fall at the previous auction two weeks ago, it was ...
Motorists are now able to offset their carbon emissions when they fuel up at Z Energy stations. A new feature in the Z app called Carbon Count will show drivers the carbon impact of each fill, then give them the option to offset that. There will be a per-fill option ...
Growth in bank sector profits stalled last year after years of seemingly unstoppable development. Business advisory firm KPMG's annual sector report showed the industry's collective profits fell just under 1 percent to $5.7 billion, with a growth in lending, while margins were squeezed slightly, costs rose markedly, and bad debts ...
After years of swearword-emblazoned book covers, are readers all out of fucks to give about bad language?Since Adam Mansbuch’s 2011 bestseller, Go the Fuck to Sleep, book titles have been swearing profusely to grab audience attention. The author followed up on the winning formula with You Have to Fucking Eat ...
Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters will keep his Ministerial portfolios as the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) investigates the New Zealand First Foundation. ...
Here's how the Government could force you to sell your house for state housing; and impact of drought, coronavirus could lead to recession - economist. ...
Editor’s Note: Here below is a list of the main issues currently under discussion in New Zealand and links to media coverage.New Zealand Parliament Buildings, Wellington, New Zealand.Today’s contentNZ First donations scandal Fran O’Sullivan (Herald): Jacinda Ardern right to let Winston Peters’ keep his head over donations ...
The Council of Licenced Firearms Owners is calling on Police Minister Stuart Nash to front up and explain, after releasing new figures showing that since 2011, Police employees have been caught 244 times for unauthorised use of confidential and sensitive ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephen Duckett, Director, Health Program, Grattan Institute Young Australians are abandoning private health insurance in droves. And the overall decline in the percentage of the population with private coverage is continuing. New data for the three months to the end of 2019, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Gregory Moore, Doctor of Botany, University of Melbourne As the brutal reality of climate change dawned this summer, you may have asked yourself a hard question: am I well-prepared to live in a warmer world? There are many ways we can ready ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Eva Plaganyi, Principal Research Scientist, CSIRO Currents are strong around the Torres Strait Islands, lying between Australia’s northern-most tip and Papua New Guinea. When the tidal conditions are right and the waters relatively still, though, up to 230 islanders – a sizeable ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jack Fahey, PhD Candidate, Department of Archaeology and History, La Trobe University General Motors has announced the Holden brand will be “retired” in 2021. This week’s announcement has been a long time coming. The Holden brand has been in a state of ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra An “unholy coalition” is attacking the planned increase in the superannuation guarantee, Opposition Leader Anthony Albanese says in his latest “vision statement”, pledging to resist any attempt to stop the legislated rise to 12% going ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tony Walker, Adjunct Professor, School of Communications, La Trobe University China’s ambassador to Australia, Cheng Jingye, let the cat out of the bag this week when he lambasted Canberra over its decision to exclude Huawei from the build-out of Australia’s 5G network. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Thami Croeser, Research Officer, Centre for Urban Research, RMIT University The idea that we should decentralise our population has come up many times in Australia. Recently, the National Farmers’ Federation president pushed the notion, calling for a shift to the regions. And ...
Good morning and welcome to The Bulletin. In today’s edition: Fresh developments around in the political donations saga, the Chinese ambassador speaks out, and some troubling poll numbers for advocates of cannabis law reform.The Serious Fraud Office is formally investigating the operations of the NZ First Foundation. The confirmation came in ...
Open mike 06/02/2016 
Open mike is your post.
17 mins ago
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Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Rowan Callick, Industry Fellow, Griffith University Brand “People’s Republic of China” is wobbling, as if the massive picture of Mao Zedong in Tiananmen Square was swaying with an earthquake tremor. But it can only actually fall if pushed from inside. The handling ...15 mins ago
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Here is my prediction.
Talleys (and many other two-bit shits) will shortly be establishing Australian entities to own their NZ assets. This is so that they will then fall under the TPP ISDS system. This is gaming the system. And this for many corporates appears to be what it’s all about.
• If you raise minimum wages this will affect our future profits
• If you increase the opportunity for effective collective agreements this will affect our future profits
• If you change environmental laws ….
• If you change the fish quotas …..
• If you change ACC contributions….
• If….
• If..
The list will be extremely long, and it will not take many challenges for governments to back away from making any policy, regulatory or legislative changes because the risks of ISDS challenges. I’m not sure whether this is an intended consequence or unintended consequence of the TPP.
Well jeez that woke me up! What a scam if that’s the case.
now read this, Gangnam Style
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/10/obscure-legal-system-lets-corportations-sue-states-ttip-icsid
and then this
Dr. Eric De Brabandere & Julia Lepeltak, Leiden University5
http://corporateeurope.org/trade/2012/11/chapter-5-speculating-injustice-third-party-funding-investment-disputes
Perhaps Andrew Little and the Labour Party has a secret plan to get us out of this corporatised morass.
Nope. They will stick with it apparently. You must be so happy /sarc
Hmmmm I missed the /sarc tags on my comment
I think Little and Robertson have no objective except to look like they oppose the TPPA when in fact the globalists Shearer et al hold sway
Some were claiming last week that Little’s ‘strong stance’ against the TPPA was evidence that he was in control of a united caucus.
Except that strong stance doesn’t even exist outside of spin.
Strawman, as usual.
trp, while you are about, do you know if there is any discussion about how Labour might deal with the issues the TPPA brings post-signing and once in government? If Little is saying that they will go back to the signatories and deal with it there, has he said how that might happen?
Hi, weka, great question!
My understanding is that the TPP has no entrenched mechanism for re-negotiation or review. Though, if there is, I’d be happy to hear about it. I suspect future governments will have to use the diplomatic route to re-start negotiations. I’ll have a dig and see what I can find out where Labour are heading with this aspect. Might be a post in it.
That would be great trp!
Bill has put up this argument, which on the face of it looks like a fairly significant impediment to renegotiation. Neither of us have found any expert opinion on that though (I don’t think either of us have looked).
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/286157/after-five-years,-tpp-deal-is-done
Yes, I would be interested to see how Andrew Little is going to do this and still stay part of the TPP.
thanks for that. My quick reading of it is that that refers to pre-ratification.
Deal goes to parliaments
US President Barack Obama released a statement saying Americans would have months to read the Trans-Pacific Partnership before he signs it into law.
In the United States, the deal will next go to the Congress for consideration, and in New Zealand and other countries, it will go before the Parliament.
The 12 countries’ legislatures will have no ability to re-negotiate the deal’s terms, however, and will be limited to yes-or-no votes on signing it into law.
It’s a messy bit of reporting too, because in NZ at least, it won’t go before parliament.
I just don’t see how you can renegotiate.
If Little thinks he can renegotiate a better deal, then what’s stopping the other 12 countries from trying their luck as well.
The whole thing would go back to square one again, which is why it has to be a yes or no situation.
You’re either in or you’re out.
Perhaps. So why is it that no-one is asking the question of how this might happen?
Colonial Viper +1
The Greens and NZ First did their homework and immediately recognized TPPA was another corporate take-over move. Labour gives every impression they are just starting to wake up.
Can’t help wondering if there is conflict of interest among certain NT MPs ((John Key) springs to mind – any declaration of investment in those Third party funding investors. Who is really going to benefit from nation states having to go into arbitration (ISDS)?
AND the lawyers have 6000 pages to play with.
It can’t be that bad, Labour has said that its better for NZ to stay in the TPPA than to leave it.
+1 Gristle
It’s intended. Just look at how the National Government reacted to the Philip Morris case against the Australian Government. Too scared to do anything… just in case.
No, not too scared, but prudently letting the Australian taxpayers take the risk and foot the legal bill. If they were unsuccessful, then the precedent would be set and we would have to think hard about having a go ourselves.
I understand Andrew Little will support the TPPA if Labour get into power .
Can someone explain to me exactly what the official position is please?
Do we oppose and protest or do we support and settle down ?
The answer is that National must be opposed by all those who believe in NZ’s democractic sovereignty and freedom from corporate control. And so must Labour.
Labour. The perfect example of a peoples party which has become a party of the ruling establishment.
Andrew Little – insincere and incredible.
But apparently some here say that he is the best Labour speech maker in decades. Great.
“some here say that he is the best Labour speech maker in decades”
I think that is an accurate opinion. He is the best since David Lange.
That is mainly because all the other leaders ranged from terrible to dreadful.
Do we actually know who wrote the speech delivered by Little about the new tertiary education policy?
Not sure who wrote the speech, but I reckon it’s Grant Robertson behind the policy as a Version 2 of the interest free student loans scheme he developed in 2005.
Labour has been captured in the new sense that dictionaries on the web haven’t quite conned yet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
Other words describing Labour’s situation – inveigled, undermined, disenfranchised,
capitulated, self-seeking and decrepit.
Google for meaning of enfeebled!
make weak or feeble.
“trade unions are in an enfeebled state”
Actually, Labour has always been a capitalist party but it’s worked to save capitalism from itself. We’re now learning that this can’t actually be done.
The strategy is to run down the TPP even though we agree with it , hopefully this will fool and confuse enough people to get us over the line and into power.
Once in, we’ll spin some bullshit about how our hands are tied and it’s all Nationals fault.
It’s not only transparent, it’s fucking gutless.
Makes one wonder why you support it, CV. Must be hard being a paying poodle of those notorious supporters of the 1% but lets not call it hypocrisy, coz that’d be true, but mean.
I’ve provided time and energy to the anti-TPP campaign and will continue to do so.
And yet you remain loyally pro TPP and the interests of the 1%. Funny old world, eh?
TRP
You’re a funny old man.
and the perfect example of why I can’t be bothered with TS …. yea nah.
TRP’s last comment (re the EMbittered CV – possibly with good reason) was disingenuous, cowardly, conceited, holier-than-thou, in-bubble, and in short – complete and utter kaka. All the best of British TRP! (and all those that fawn all over you). Christ!!! and we wonder what’s wrong with Labour ffs! There ya have it in a nutshell – that ‘broad church’ we’re supposed to worship within – just as long as we worship our betters
Don’t give up OWT – it’s just human nature. It’s how we are, ornery as the USA call it.
I suppose you’re correct @ grey.
There are plenty worse BUT (I mean – the “voice of Reason ffs!) – how arrogant is THAT?!!!!
Then there’s another that’s so fucking up itself it runs as tho’ it was some sort of elementary cure for a disease. _I wonder whether Lanthanide could possibly cure the for ZIKA virus – it’s certainly so fucking arrogant and holier than thou it’d believe in marketing itself as a cure-all for all the ills of the world.
You’re correct however – neither (of those specimens) come close to what we need to battle.
It’s just that Labour really do need to have a fucking good look at themsleves (perhaps even spend less time bagging C.V. for bad experiences) and really look at their own inadequacies.
Like my father-in-law before me (after a lifetime of supporting Labour), they’ll NOT get my vote till after they’ve acknowledged, apologised, and proven themselves. I don’t see it tho’ in the near future.
Christ – I’m even considering a vote for Winston.
Little will be destroyed by Key in election year.
The man has absolutely no credibility at all.
Grant Robertson, you’re next up.
BM will have flowers growing out of his arse in election year, from all the horsehit he’s been shoving up there. He has no credibility at all.
Not sure who your replacement will be.
Key may not make it to election year – he’s looking old and tired and making mistakes. Time was he’d’ve relished an opportunity like Waitangi, but he can no longer cut the mustard.
Grant Robertson is too “Wellington Bureaucratic”. Labour will go with Stuart Nash should Andrew Little step aside.
That reads more like a National Party strategy.
You could both be right – Jones/McGrath instead of Crosby/Textor – has a certain ring or is it toll?
The National Party Herald are in full rent-a-propaganda mode on the TPPA.
Audrey Young in her article titled “Protest fears put cork in TPP ministers celebration lunch at winery” blatantly pushes the pro-TPP argument quoting Todd McClay, Villa Maria founder Sir George Fistonich, executive director of Export New Zealand, Catherine Beard.
She totally misses the point that the people of NZ are STAKEHOLDERS in the TPPA.
We, the public, Maori and Pakeha, will be paying the costs of this agreement with our health, our environment, our jobs, our education and it is OUR sovereignty that is being traded without our having been consulted.
We , the public, were excluded from taking part in this agreement until the stage where we cannot make any changes to it.
Those groups opposed to the TPPA have been ignored or dismissed as scaremongers?
Where is the Health Cost Benefit Analysis called for by the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists?
“Protest fears put cork in TPP ministers celebration lunch at winery”
How Marie Antoinette
If a CEO presented an investment opportunity (and that is what the TPPA is being touted as) to a group of shareholders that promised an ROI of 1% after 10 years, the shareholders, after laughing him out of the boardroom, would be asking for his resignation. 1% is margin of error stuff. The problem I have with he TPPA is it is being pushed as some big trade opportunity when in reality, to me anyway, trade is just being used to make it palatable to Joe Public. The real intent is around the rules of trade and how it concentrates more power into the hands of corporates and limits what a sovereign government can do to protect the interests of the people it is meant to serve.
+100, Kevin. Excellent analogy.
that is exactly what it is…a few crumbs from the trade table to cement in the corporates power…as if they need more, they already lead the elected govs by the nose
The TPPA mitigates a lot more risk for the corporates by socializing it through legislation rather than them having to lobby governments on a case by case basis.
understand the corporates desire for even greater control….was expressing disbelief we aquiesce
you are right of course….”we’ have allowed them to become too powerful, but it has been insidious
I was agreeing with you and adding to your statement. From a corporate perspective this is a rational extension of their strategies when dealing with externalising risk.
It requires an ever vigilant public to counter it. But the machine is very well funded and very powerful. It can offer lots of goodies to stifle criticism… somebody once said to me: “money might not be able to buy love but it can buy a pretty comfortable misery”. It seems to me that many are content in that regard.
Perfect from a corporate perspective… licence to gouge.
+1 Jones – yes the irony is that once TPPA is signed, corporations probably won’t waste money buying political figures, they can just litigate politicians decisions through their own kangaroo ISDS tribunals. Ha ha.
Not content with being recognised in law as individuals, they want to be on a par with nations – to be treated as another sovereign state.
Like the cliched mafia “offer you can’t refuse” with the promise of becoming a “made man” for the politicians who show the greatest enthusiasm in facilitating it.
well put
“We, the public, Maori and Pakeha, will be paying the costs of this agreement with our health, our environment, our jobs, our education”.
Can you please give examples of how we will paying the costs in each of the sectors you quote.
@Ben
“We, the public, Maori and Pakeha, will be paying the costs of this agreement with our health, our environment, our jobs, our education”.
Our Health
http://www.asms.org.nz/news/other-news/2016/02/05/nzma-repeats-call-for-health-analysis-of-tppa/
Our environment
“The environment will suffer under the final text of the Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP), according to the Sustainability Council.” http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/294592/tpp's-environmental-chapter-slammed
Read the peer-reviewed expert analysis on the Environment.
https://tpplegal.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/ep4-environment.pdf
Our education
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11581754
Thank you for taking the time to compile a detailed response TMM (somewhat refreshing for opinions to be backed with analysis I might add). I shall read and digest your links.
You are welcome, Ben. You will find the link below useful as it contains peer-reviewed expert analysis on several chapters of the TPP. Thank you for being openminded and prepared to consider the information so that you can make up your own mind on the issue. My beef is against people who are wilfully ignorant: who deliberately refuse to read any information and suspend their own ability to think rationally, blindly following others without questioning.
You are obviously not one of those, thank goodness.
https://tpplegal.wordpress.com/
There Ben, a very full and clear answer to your question about how we will be paying the costs. Read and internalise.
You remind me of primary school. Chant after me: “I told you so, I told you so….”.
How long ago were you in primary school Ben? Presumably you are old enough to have had secondary ed and taught how to run a critical analysis of what you are reading.
Hard luck Labour supporters. It seems as though you are being let down by your party leaders once more. Looks like we are in the TPPA for the long haul.
http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Labour-wont-pull-out-of-the-TPP—Little/tabid/506/articleID/112603/Default.aspx
heh. Andrew Little is quite insincere and quite incredible.
I thinks it’s hard luck for a left coalition in total. If voters are against the TPPA, how can they vote to elect a left wing government that is committed to pulling out of the agreement?
They don’t vote for Labour.
Well now I’m confused, how can Labour condemn the TPP, censure David Shearer about being pro-TPP and yet now announces Labour won’t pull out of it?
Have I missed something?
Yes. As usual. None so blind…. chris.
The TPPA is in. Signed and sealed. Will be ratified by Cabinet and not by Parliament as will be done in Canada, and the Senate in USA. Finished.
Andrew can not cancel it. But they/we can fight against the aspects which are bad for NZ, when new legislation is brought to the House for Parliament to vote on.
I believe this is what the phrase “you can’t polish a turd” refers to
The only way Labour Loyalists can stomach the cognitive dissonance is by buying into Labour’s line that the TPPA isn’t that bad, that the costs of being out of the TPPA are too high, so let’s just accept it.
Just more evidence for Kiwi voters that we don’t have a real Opposition.
We do have a real opposition – it’s just that Labour is not part of it.
Wise up. There are other Parties in Parliament.
It has been the case for some time that Labour thinks because it is the big brother it must control everything – that is going to change – as more and more voters wake up to the fact that if they really want an alternative voice they won’t find it in Labour.
Trouble is, CV believes that people should vote for the parties that match them culturally or that they believe in. In the absence of that, all parties are useless to him.
Can you direct me to a NZ political party that has publicly come out and stated they would pull NZ out of the TPPA?
Until now Opposition parties have been urging the govt to pull out of the negotiations – only now is the time for them to publicly state that they will pull out, if given the opportunity. I expect that they will in due course. Unfortunately Labour have been ambivalent re the TPPA from the get go.
The latest statement from the Greens I feel is pretty clear. They will continue to oppose the TPPA. I think that that is as much as a Party can say on the matter. The TPPA has not yet been ratified and we await the outcome in the States, The problem with withdrawal is still fraught – it could end up costing billions – no matter which way you look at it. It’s a shit of a situation that National have signed us up to and they intend digging us even deeper in the hole.
Thanks for that link Macro.
I think there is a fair amount of political naivity in this thread (or disingenuousness on CV’s part because he should know better). Russell Norman said a few elections ago that one of the major problems with free trade agreements was that they bound NZ into contracts that incoming governments had no knowledge of. He was talking about ones done completely in secret, but this applies to the TPPA too because of the clusterfuck process and the complexity of the agreement. So for instance, if Labour campaigned on policy X and then came into government and discovered that there was a confidential clause in an agreement made by a previous govt that prohibited them from doing policy x, then their hands were tied. Plus they look like they’ve just gone back on their promise.
This is why I’m basically against all free trade that isn’t done via full democracy. Because the basic premise is that it’s ok for a govt elected for one term to bind NZ into contracts for eternity, and that’s not a free state.
And for people surprised that pulling out is not an easy thing to do, this is what a huge part of the protest has been about. It’s an inherently flawed idea and process and many people knew that from the start.
Can you explain how?
If a Party in opposition prior to an election indicates that it will withdraw from the TPPA then overseas corporates will be waiting for any sign – should that Party gain the Treasury benches – for filing suits against withdrawal and the loss of profits for all manner of reasons. It will be a can of worms. Parties opposed to the TPPA are also parties who want more action on environment, protection of NZ land, etc (provisions for which have been removed from the TPPA) so the field will be open for ISDS mayhem. It takes 6 months for a country to withdraw. Even with an electoral mandate, it would take an incoming Govt at least a year before final withdrawal and plenty of time for companies to lodge claims, however spurious. These courts are set up in the favour of corporates and manned by corporate lawyers. They are a farce and formed with the sole aim of handing the ability of a country to manage and govern itself in its own perceived interests into the hands of multinationals – nothing more nor less.
Would the short term loss caused by that be bigger than the continuing loss that is going to come from remaining in the TPPA?
That would depend upon the process of withdrawal. Do the ISDS claims get to continue after we’ve withdrawn? If I was the government I’d make sure that any and all claims against the nation under TPPA would be closed at the same time that withdrawal took place. This should be standard operating procedure so as to prevent the spurious claims that you’re concerned about.
As there is an exit clause, one would assume there wouldn’t be grounds for such filings (suits against withdrawal).
And until they do, voters that oppose the TPP (and expect us to withdraw if renegotiations are unsuccessful) have no political representation.
Now isn’t that a concern for our democratic system? Will we see more being disenfranchised, thus fail to vote?
Nevertheless, if you want the best resistance to the TPPA and any other agreement like it, then voting for the GP is the thing to do. They’ve consistently said they opposed it (unlike Labour who are still pretty centrist and pro-free trade), and have been working for years on opposing these kind of agreements that undermine NZ.
btw, personal feelings of being represented aren’t necessary to use one’s vote, or even to feel politically empowered for useful.
@ weka
“btw, personal feelings of being represented aren’t necessary to use one’s vote, or even to feel politically empowered for useful.”
Speak for yourself. I vote on policy, thus policy must reflect my views if a party wants to attain it.
When it comes to such a major political issue as this trade deal (and considering a poll on the matter showed the majority of voters were opposed) one would expect there to be political representation.
The Greens haven’t committed to withdrawing if renegotiations are unsuccessful, thus alternatives fail to advance.
Moreover, at this stage the Greens require Labour, hence Labour will largely be calling the shots. And there goes your resistance to the TPP.
Doh!!, must be very difficult being a Labour supporter at the moment……….
Na I’m cool with Little’s handling of it, given that a the tpp is unlikely to make a blind bit of difference to my life and that Little is running a party with independent thinkers in it not like the whipped gutless tools in national.
It’s really not a problem – we can build another prison for them. Bounty Island is a splendid place for reflection and penance.
Stuart,
A marvelous approach to democracy. Let the government of the day jail all its democratically elected opponents. Even Venezuela finds this a bit hard to do.
If this government were not riddled with corruption it would have nothing to fear. But corruption is fatal to democracies – and the consequences of failing democracies are well documented.
The bracing subantarctic climate would do wonders for Key’s integrity, and Gerry Brownlee might well prove attractive to sea elephants.
Though you misread my comment – it referred in fact directed to persons within Labour, who like yourself support treason against NZ in the form of the TPP.
I don’t see that as letting supporters down. It might be theoretically possible to pull out of the TPPA but practically the cost of doing so would be unaffordable.
You can’t sign up deals and then walk away from them without penalty. Actions have consequences, an arbitrary withdrawal would destroy much of the existing business & diplomatic relationships we have with member countries.
as any lawyer would advise…it is better not to sign a bad deal than try to extract yourself from one
The Government has already signed. So now we can only fight/expose the detail/ramifications.
or trust that the US don’t ratify….the greedy corps lobbyists may yet shoot themselves in the foot in that regard…which reminds me …why the complete lack of concern expressed via the MSM around the issue of side letters?…
Yes. I heard that American on radio talking about US seeking side letters to “clarify” that the time was really 8 years not just 5 years as we have been told. Yet we have been told by Key that there will be no changes. Signed. Sealed. Untouchable. Huh!
Andrew Geddis” The confusion is over the length of time that “biologics” (i.e. medicines that are made using certain types of cells to produce the right kind of protein) will be given protection through a “market exclusivity period” in which “biosimilars” (which are akin to generic medicines) are prohibited. There’s an explainer on why this matters here.
It seems like NZ thinks we’ve agreed to a 5 year protection period, but the US wants at least 8, and no-one is quite sure exactly what the TPPA text says.”
and apparently theres nothing to stop them reseeking the original 12…on a country by country basis as I understand it
“it is better not to sign a bad deal than try to extract yourself from one”
Bang on pat. I’d think everyone here has signed contracts before, surely everyone must understand about the consequences of breaking a contract.
I am a bit mystified why Labour aren’t straight out stating we can’t afford to pull out once we’re in, it’s in their favour to do so.
I would expect it is the hope that the situation will never reach the point where that decision has to be made….a vain hope in my opinion
This is why the Neoliberals always win, why Labour is so ineffective at changing the course of the things, and why the status quo continues to drift towards the right.
National and the corporates now know how to handle Labour.
You simply make deals which are too tough and costly to undo, and a gutless Labour will go along with it: to them staying in the TPP is the pragmatic, unavoidable decision.
until tipping point….
Look at Europe, look at the USA.
It is too costly and too dangerous to wait for that point. Fascists, racists, extreme nationalists all become much more politically empowered at that point.
didn’t say i advocated it…was pointing out the (almost) inevitable result
Col V
+1
I fear it’s a vain hope too pat but one of the prepared scripts from the pro-TPP trolls (including the NZ Herald) is that we can always leave if it turns out to be no good.
The argument not to sign would be strengthened considerably if the likes of Labour admitted that we really can’t leave once we’ve signed; that it’s a one-way ticket. Politically that should help Labour by demonstrating to voters how undemocratic and authoritarian National is.
Six months notice. That’s all it takes on paper to get out of the TPP. Then it’s simply a case of standing firm and refusing to play ball on all the ISDS claims that would rain from the sky during those six months.
And the other threats of how there will be huge divestment and so on – face them all down.
Something to note. An argument for the TPP and specifically the dispute procedures, is that direct foreign investment plummets without them. A number of studies, including one by the World Bank, have found that claim to be entirely false.
Side note. Syriza, in spite of the express backing of the Greek voters, capitulated when it tried to play that game with Europe’s ‘big boys’. There is now rioting in Greece again.
“Six months notice. That’s all it takes on paper to get out of the TPP. Then it’s simply a case of standing firm and refusing to play ball on all the ISDS claims that would rain from the sky during those six months. ”
There’s more to it than that Bill. We currently trade with, and have good diplomatic relationships with, all the member countries. If we renege on the deal those countries will freeze us out. They’ll be pissed off with us and will show it. The US have shown time & again how vindictive they are, they alone would make life hard for us.
We won’t face an overt embargo. We’d just see a whole lot of subtle changes, obstacles put in our way, which would gradually reduce to a trickle the trade & investment we do with those countries.
Once we’re in the most hopeful outcome I can see is a breakaway by a group of nations; enough to weaken the remaining TPP bloc and enough to avoid the penalties that would befall a single nation quitting.
Yeah, short term. But, long term – as shown by various studies including by the World Bank – being in or out of these deals makes absolutely no difference to levels of trade/investment.
Again you are ignoring the consequences of reneging on a deal Bill. Are you being deliberately obtuse or have you failed to understand that bit?
You paint a picture of two scenarios when there are clearly three here
1/ Not signing
2/ Signing
3/ Signing and then pulling out
Your argument applies only to 1/. I’ve been talking about 3/ which is what everyone else is talking about too.
No DH. I’m talking about pulling out if and when it’s ratified by Japan and the US.
So your argument is remaining in a bad deal is better than utilizing the exit clause?
What would be the consequences of utilizing the exit clause? And how would that compare to remaining in the deal?
And surely there will be consequences for flouting certain aspects of the deal.
Despite what the tories and self-loathing labourites say, Little was pretty clear in Gosman’s link.
Labour is a party that supports free trade. This is not a surprise to anyone except the poor few who spend the first few minutes of every morning believing it’s 1972 again.
There are some bits in the TPPA that meet Labour’s free trade objectives.
There are other bits that fail to meet Labour’s expectations about sovreignty.
Therefore, Labour’s starting point is to try to keep those things it agrees with and renegotiate those things it finds unacceptable.
People demanding that NZ pull out of the deal see it as a wreck that should be written off. Labour see it as a do-er upper. How a LabGrn govt sees it? That has yet to be negotiated.
Indeed.
From July last year,
Bear in mind that ‘backs’ there is before any of us have seen the draft, including Labour, and that Little is talking about whether they will support National signing the agreement or not.
except that it is patently obvious that the US would not be in this deal without the ISDS provisions (see TTIP negotiations) and the ability to vet our legislation……as a small (the size of a moderate US city) we are in a weak bargaining position…this applies to any side letter issue, unlike say Japan who are able to bargain from a position of strength.
We have managed to export in the face of tariffs, quotas and subsidies to date and their is no need to bend over for this when the subsidies, quotas and tariffs (particularly in the Us) still remain and are merely “adjusted”…we would be far better off moving our exports up the value chain as advocated by many analysts…we will never be able to compete on volume …consider what we have done to this country by increasing the dairy herd from 130,000 to 1.3 million in canty, 5 million nationwide…the US has 90 million beasts and they are only the fifth largest country by herd numbers worldwide.
Nevertheless, Labour’s starting position is that the TPP will be a done deal before the next election, so the preferred option is to try to improve it before considering something like withdrawal.
If we don’t like some of the sovreignty issues, other nations (e.g. Canada) will have similar concerns. We can’t control, but we might be able to lead.
there will be no improving it….all efforts will be needed to ensure it is not made any worse….its a dog, a red zoned condemned property, not a doer upper
That might well be your perspective.
It does not seem to be the perspective of the Labour Party.
But how do you feel about free trade agreements in principle? I suspect that therein might lie some of the difference in perspective.
you suspect wrong….but then TPPA isn’t a free trade agreement
Fair call.
But some parts of it do deal with free trade. Some parts donot.
It’s way past time to quit using the old ‘you must be against free trade’ line.
Fundamentally the TPP will inhibit the kind of companies NZ needs in order to export higher quality products and will, as Oram points out, lock us more tightly into raw commodity producer status.
That isn’t free trade, it’s restrictive trade.
Some commenters here are against free trade.
Little made it clear that Labour is not, and that they see free trade elements in the TPP. Assuming the second part is correct, then anyone 100% opposed to the TPP is also against the free trade elements.
I’m against the TPP because of the ISDS and intellectual property issues. But just as there’s bad stuff in it, there’s probably some good stuff in any 6000 page multilateral agreement.
But thanks for taking a reasonable suspicion and depicting it as a categorical claim. That always ensures some shit-hot conversationing.
Weren’t you replying to Pat, not ”some commenters”?
I know the Labour bashing thing recently here has got out of hand (personally I got over my disappointment with Labour’s TPP stance about 18 months ago), but Pat is actually informed about the unequal power relationship and specific risks that aren’t at all answered by an asinine there’s-good-stuff-and-bad-stuff-like-any-deal response.
I was, but I don’t have exhaustive records of every commenter’s opinions on a range of topics. My suspicion was based on pat’s categorical opposition to the entire thing (contrasting with Little’s more nuanced approach), and the fact that such an attitude is not exactly unheard of around here.
Pat advised me otherwise, and I took them at their word.
You might think that wanting to keep the bits Labour agrees with while trying to renegotiate the bits it doesn’t is “asinine”, but that seems to be Labour’s position.
Is there anything in particular you want from me, or should I just regard this little exchange as yet another meaningless piece of static?
I will confess that initially I had thought that with the ISDS provisions removed it may have been a workable document, but the more I look into it the worse it becomes and that includes the trade aspects…. I expect if and when it is implemented our balance of payments will deteriorate significantly.
Pat, the only hope is a democratic win in the States. In my view rather than asking if we can pull out, the focus should be getting the public to understand it’s not a done deal yet.
McFlock: I think you missed the bit where Little moved to outright opposition to TPP. While Little acknowledges that once a done deal NZ (effectively) can’t pull out, that was significant.
So you’re defending a position even Labour has abandoned.
I don’t want anything from you, but as a suggestion maybe try actually following some news before commenting on this?
@ergo
I was aware of that. This subthread is about TC’s suggestion of withdrawal from the done deal vs trying to improve it first. So your “suggestion”, while snarky, adds no new information to the discussion and is not really relevant to anything I’ve written here. Just like your initial mischaracterization of my position.
So this is just another example of a completely pointless ergovmcf tit-for-tat, I would suggest that you actually think before jumping on your high horse, but past experience suggests that this would be futile. And as continuation would likely fill up pat’s reply tab, I say ‘good day’.
Oh, it must have escaped your notice – I directly addressed Pat too in my last reply, it’s not all about you.
Your concern for Pat’s reply tab is touching but unnecessary.
My other replies on this thread involve actual arguments about the TPP, and I daresay Pat’s not too bothered that I’ve used his reply tab a few times to make those comments.
I thought you were saying Labour’s current TPP position was that it was partly good and partly bad, I pointed out Labour had moved to outright opposition.
You’ve said you’re aware of Labour’s current position – OK, accepted.
Not keen on any future interaction with you, either.
Yeah, nah. Labour have never said they would consider pulling out. Some of you having been paying attention.
There’s a fair chance the US will reject it – and who knows – those obtuse losers, the Gnats may change their minds as they see what little credibility they ever had vanishing down the plughole with foreign land sales, mounting debt and graphic incompetence.
It’s an odd translation but interesting points about varying radiation levels on food in countries trade.
Under TPPA consumers are going to have less and less knowledge of their food origin. It is the opposite of the 21st century farming where consumers want to know the origin of their food from farm gate to table …
“Dumping Radioactive Food from Japan on the World-Why the TPP is a Pending Disaster”
https://miningawareness.wordpress.com/2015/01/09/dumping-radioactive-food-from-japan-on-the-world-why-the-tpp-is-a-pending-disaster/
Maybe someone should inform Andrew Little about this upcoming public health and agricultural disaster?
He seems to think that NZ should stay in the TPPA.
Or perhaps this is one of the provisions of the TPPA that Labour is going to “flout”?
Labour’s positioning is insincere and incredible.
But great speeches.
“He seems to think that NZ should stay in the TPPA.”
[citation needed]
Which based on previous experience I’m guessing you won’t provide. You’re now getting pretty close to lying about Little territory.
http://www.radiolive.co.nz/MARK-SAINSBURY-Andrew-Little-you-cant-have-it-both-ways-on-TPP/tabid/504/articleID/112642/Default.aspx
In which Andrew Little confirms that NZ will remain in the TPPA even if Labour is elected to government
My reading is that it’s not so much that Little thinks they should stay in as it’s going to be too hard to leave. If Labour’s current position on sovereignty is to be believed, then that exists once we are in the agreement too and thus if leaving were easy then it would be easy. CV appears to take the view that Labour are lying, I take the view that Labour are caught between a rock and a hard place.
I’ll just add that most people criticising Labour for saying they won’t leave haven’t yet looked at what leaving would actually entail. Until that conversation is had it’s hard to put Labour’s decision into context.
So don’t buy food you don’t know the origin of. Local NZ companies will be wise to continue labeling their products as NZ made. I currently do that and buy only food that is NZ grown/made even if it costs more.
People need to understand we have power but we need to start believing in it and use it.
+1
And what happens when food labelling under the TPP is changed so it is much less clear where the origins of various ingredients are from?
The corporates are on to us like a fucking rash.
buy from the people that grow and make it.
Not sure I want to start making my own pasta and rice and so forth. Not as easy as it sounds. It sort of like going back to 18th century . While I think you should buy as much locally grown as you can and limit food miles – some foods are not practical to buy locally and shouldn’t you be allowed to know where it came from and how safe it is? Under previous trade agreements country of origin labelling have been successfully challenged as a ‘trade barrier’.
of course, but the subthread was about how to stay empowered if corporate culture tries to take that from us.
There are people in NZ already making pasta. Wheat can easily be grown here.
Rice is trickier. It probably can be grown for larger distribution but to eat local we should be eating local and seasonal, which means that for many in NZ rice won’t be a staple. Plenty of other good choices though.
Buy fresh food from the local vege shop or market and use the internet to learn where other food is coming from. They might be able to limit the information on the label but evey company wants to put its logo on the product, so google it and find out.
There is currently an app to scan barcodes and find out if the product contain certified palm oil, I have a feeling if food labeling will be limited there will be more apps like that. It is kind of foolish from corporations to think they can completely block information. Not in this time and age.
How many companies control NZ…in comparison with the ten claimed here for Australia?
http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/labor-senator-sam-dastyari-claims-10-companies-have-taken-complete-control-of-australias-political-process-20160205-gmmy30.html
more to the point where are the NZ political equivalents of Dastyari, current or retired….
More adverse comment against the Investor-State Dispute Settlement (ISDS) rort.
https://euobserver.com/economic/132142
And they are right to object. Wonder if NZ Law will point out the same dangers? Perhaps not if they all support the Government.
I refer to these ISDS courts as kangaroo courts – I find it absolutely mind boggling that anyone with even the most minutest understanding of their responsibility to ensure fair justice for the citizens of their country (yes I’m looking at you Tim, and you John, and you Todd) could agree to such a procedure – so open to abuse and bias, so flimsy in its appointments, which circumvents the International courts and the jurisdiction of the WTO, and with no right of appeal, and only for the benefit of Multi-nationals with Pockets way deeper than the GDPs of 75% of the countries involved.
well in Keyspeak, it’s a “no brainer” isn’t it? ISDS “arrangements” makes it anything but a “Free” trade agreement, and until the very notion of them is thrown out, how can we even think about anything else?
Thanks for the post, something to direct the believers to, when they accuse those that want to discuss further of being “rent a mob” or smelly hippies!
Is it possible to get the ISDS ruled to be illegal by the United Nations?
“TTIP investor court illegal, say German judges”
https://euobserver.com/economic/132142
This TPPA reminds me of Y2K, once it is all passed the world wont stop spinning. our lives will go on as normal, All those who opposed it will have moved on to the next anti progress agenda.
Has anyone stopped to think how TPPA will benefit the poorer countries with trade to these other 11 countries.
I come from the point of why would 12 countries sell there country man and their own families down the drain.
I feel we will look back in 10 years time and say what was all the worry about.
The TPPA is only progress if you think going back to feudalism is progress.
It won’t benefit them at all. In fact, it will probably make them worse off as most of Africa is now worse off after they got ‘free-trade’ forced upon them by the rich nations. The rich nations did well out of it though because they bought up large amounts of the poor countries and shifted all the resources to them.
History shows quite clearly that poor countries do very badly out of these types of deals.
It’s also a point that all the developed countries developed under under heavy protection.
Chris Trotters Bowalley Road piece post-march is very thoughtful and sincere.
It also has an awe inspiring helicopter photo of Queen Street packed with heads as far as the eye can see.
Further he says, and I thought you all would be interested so have copied it for you (and have bolded a portion that expresses very well the situation):
Too bad that Labour says that we have to stay in the TPP now, because.
Reluctant corporate collaborators are still corporate collaborators.
Too bad that CV is now making shit up about Labour and spraying it all over the place.
Happy for Labour to show me wrong and actually stand up against the TPP, not just mouth the words.
Happy for CV to show us all that he’s right and produce something that affects good change in the world, not just mouthing the words.
I don’t get millions of dollars of tax payer funding in order to pretend at being the Opposition.
No, but the way you are acting is on par with the worst of Labour MPs, so I have no doubt that if you were in their position you would be pulling the same kind of bullshit they are.
+ 1 Weka
He’s been doing that for a while now….
it’s tedious, and he seems to be on another mission today.
Weka, don’t know if you have followed the link in 4. above.
Andrew is very clear in stating that Labour will not pull out of the TPPA.
He clearly states the reason for that is that there is much in the agreement that will be good for NZ.
He is clear that there are certain provisions they would renegotiate, but reiterates that they will not pull out.
He says 3 times “The train has left the station”.
Yes, I listened to that yesterday.
Labour have never said they would pull out. To suggest that Labour is now all of a sudden saying it won’t pull out is a nonsense, because they’ve never intended to pull out. That was clear last year, pulling out was never part of their agenda.
“He clearly states the reason for that is that there is much in the agreement that will be good for NZ.”
Can you please quote that bit, or at least post the time stamp?
I agree with you, Labour never ever had any intention of pulling out of the TPP.
But I do think that its worth repeating ad nauseaum now that Little has confirmed it clearly.
Please post something that demonstrates that Labour have ever said anything that hints that they might pull out. Because this isn’t news, it’s always been their position.
That’s a bit disingenuous Weka. Not stating whether you will or will not do something is very different to confirming that you will or will not do something.
Up until yesterday I don’t believe Labour had made any definite statement that they would remain in the TPPA.
Maybe I’m wrong and someone can link to such a statement?
Can you please quote that bit, or at least post the time stamp?
Apologies, I should have quoted him directly the first time rather than paraphrasing from memory…
“(pieces of TPPA legislation) that support genuine free trade we will support, because we are a free trade Party.”
“…There are aspects that will help some exporters, we’ve never shied away from that.”
” if you are desperate to have only one answer to this, that it’s either completely wrong, or it’s completely right, then a 6,000 page agreement isn’t going to be like that. And a free trade agreement that has some aspects of free trade, and others that are not, it doesn’t break down that simply.”
“The train has left the station” x3.
I think the phrase is generally used to indicate that it is pointless to remain on the platform shouting at the rails.
Good The Lost Sheep.
Do you think that Labour should pull out once in govt?
yes
Have you not seen this?
http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Labour-wont-pull-out-of-the-TPP—Little/tabid/506/articleID/112603/Default.aspx
yes, I have. Please post something that demonstrates that Labour have ever said anything that hints that they might pull out. Because this isn’t news, it’s always been their position.
Nah that’s disingenuous apologising.
A version of “that’s not news, everybody has always known that Labour opposition to the TPP was merely window dressing”
lolz. Some of the centrists here might genuinely be puzzled, and some of the righties might be just taking the opportunity to spin, but you of all people know damn well that Labour were never considering pulling out, which makes you the King of the Disingenuous Ones. Still, whatever opportunity there is to poison the well, eh CV?
This is Phil Quin.
Phil Quin is much like the object thrown at Stephen Joyce, but limper.
Don’t be like Phil Quin.
Their five bottom lines for a start. Especially as they weren’t all met.
This announcement last week.
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/labour-finally-confirms-it-s-opposed-to-controversial-tppa
And basically all the noise they’ve been making opposing it suggested so.
I’ll see if u can dig a link up later but I was asking about this on ts last year and the sense I had was that it was a given that Labour wouldn’t pull out. Honestly, I am surprised at all the surprise this week.
Labour last year said they would oppose the tppa if their bottom lines weren’t met. Then once the draft was out and they had time to really look at it they came out and said they oppose NZ signing and there is little they could do.
Btw, anyone who thought that last year that if Labour’s five bottom lines weren’t met that meant once in power Labour would pull out needs to put up their rationale. Because when I raised it it wasn’t even a consideration.
A bottom line not being met is generally accepted one won’t be part of any deal. It’s where one generally draws the line. Thus, what else were voters to think?
Labour have been playing on this, trying to appease both sides.
The thing is, it’s resulted in putting a number on the left and right off.
Not pulling out won’t win them much support from the left. And talk of flouting certain aspects of the deal is turning the right off.
Their handling of this has been pathetic and will come back to bite them IMO.
Stating there is little they can do is complete rubbish. There is an exit clause.
Moreover, they could be talking to vested interests now in preparation of pulling out.
Labour’s bottom lines were about whether to support National signing the TPPA or not. They weren’t about what Labour would do once in govt.
If you’re surprised that Labour don’t want to pull out, why were you not asking these questions last year when the issue first came up, including what the implications were of pulling out?
“Moreover, they could be talking to vested interests now in preparation of pulling out.”
Little has said that they are already talking to the signatories in preparation for changing the agreement.
National didn’t require Labours support. There was no vote on the signing of the TPP.
But thanks for highlighting how Labour were playing it.
Personally. I had a feeling Labour were attempting to pull the wool. And questioned it in discussions here.
Little also indicated it was to late to pull out if it passed in the US, suggesting we can’t really pull out even tho there is an exit clause. Therefore, wouldn’t that suggest our sovereignty is already being constrained?
Do you want Labour to pull out if that’s an option?
Do you want Labour to pull out of the TPPA if it’s ratified and once they are in govt?
It would probably be the wiser option , unless of course Labour can make significant changes.
Moreover, now that they have given their hand away, they no longer have the possibility of them pulling out as a leveraging.
What do you think the implications would be of pulling out?
As pulling out will relieve us of the obligations of the deal, they won’t have us over such a barrel. Thus, although they may hit us hard for withdrawing, it won’t be as bad as the long term consequences of remaining in the deal.
The Greens have always said they oppose the TPPA but as far as I am aware have never said they will pull NZ out if it is ratified. Last year in an interview with Jessica Williams (when she was with Radio Live) James Shaw said that it would be easier to renegotiate than withdraw. Since then he has has said they need to study the detail in the full document before detailing future actions other than opposing the ratification.
Labour put up the 5 conditions for support, then said that 4 out of the 5 seem to have been met but there was still the issue of sovereignty. Over the summer Andrew Little examined the full document and was able to persuade the rest of his caucus to oppose the signing of the agreement. This was not easy because of MPs like Goff and Shearer and the influence they had over some caucus members, but Labour has now said they would oppose it in its present form.
Both parties oppose the TPPA, neither have promised to withdraw from it when they are in government, and both have talked about renegotiation.
Did you hear the interview with Williams Karen? I’ve only seen her tweet referring to it and she didn’t respond to my asking for clarification.
It’d be good to have a reference for what Shaw has said more recently too.
Both parties oppose the TPPA, neither have promised to withdraw from it when they are in government, and both have talked about renegotiation.
+1.
Labour’s situation is this.
They have always supported the TPPA and have never intended pulling out of it.
Ms Clark’s intervention was a clear signal of that.
But their absolute priority is to be the Government, and they know they cannot be the Government unless they retain the support of 3 disparate groupings: A mid to far left that is sliding ever harder left, core center left Labour voters, and about 6% of centrist voters that don’t currently vote Labour.
The conundrum above explains why they presented as being ‘opposed’ to the TPPA, while simultaneously leaving open the question of whether their opposition extended as far as actually pulling out of it.
They were trying to leave room for all 3 of the vital groupings to believe that Labour might be on their side of the argument.
As the issue evolved, Labour has been very closely attempting to gauge where the overall public sentiment was going on the TPPA (to which side of the fence do you jump?).
The mid to far left clearly resolved this was a bottom line / every man to the barricades / show the maximum opposition we can muster issue.
Labour waited to see if that level of resolution moved through and was expressed strongly among the other 2 more centrist groupings. The turnout on Thursday of only 1000 hard core protestors and 13k peaceful marchers did not indicate this had occurred.
So the day after the TPPA signing, knowing ‘the train had left the station’ and it was time to move on, Labour decided which side of the fence it was best for them to come down on.
So they clarified that they would not withdraw from the TPPA.
That’s the reality folks. You are stuck with the TPPA.
“They have always supported the TPPA and have never intended pulling out of it.”
That’s an outright lie. Not going to bother reading the rest of your comment if that’s what you are doing.
No, sorry I didn’t Weka, but I trust Jessica Williams. She wouldn’t have said that if it wasn’t true, and Shaw has never denied it.
The Green Party have been consistently opposed to the TPPA right through this process but I haven’t found anything that says what they will do if the get into government if it has already been ratified
(and I have looked!!) I think James Shaw is a very careful person and he is unlikely to make any commitments to withdraw until he knows exactly what the repercussions will be for NZ . Very sensible I think, in spite of what some here believe.
Meanwhile the Greens (and now Labour) will oppose the ratification. Unfortunately parliament doesn’t get to decide this – they only get to vote on any law changes that are required.
I think you may owe lost sheep an apology.
Little admitted the other day pulling out of the TPP was not something he’s contemplated. Although, he has openly stated he opposes the TPP.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/76579212/Live-chat-Labour-leader-Andrew-Little-on-TPPA-signing
[lprent: It pays not to request or demand apologies here. I have a tendency to view that kind of behaviour as flame starting. Since I (and the policy) tend to view such flame starters as attempting self-martyrdom. ]
“That’s an outright lie. Not going to bother reading the rest of your comment if that’s what you are doing.”
It is not a lie Weka.
Show me any proof that Labour have ever opposed the TPPA in principle?
If they opposed it, why would they confirm they would not pull out of it?
I think you’re just a bit sour, and don’t want to face up to the reality.
Best way to do that is throw all the toys out of the cot and refuse to play the game eh.
@TC and the lost sheep,
Lost sheep said “They have always supported the TPPA and have never intended pulling out of it.”
“They have always supported the TPPA” is an outright lie.
Labour’s actual positions going back to at least 2012 and up until 2 days ago,
Labour cannot support the TPPA as it stands
Labour will vote against any TPPA enabling legislation that cuts across New Zealand’s right to pass laws in its own interests.
http://www.labour.org.nz/our_position_on_the_tpp
Feb 4 2016 2:37 PM
We’re opposed to the TPPA in its current form because compromises to New Zealand’s sovereignty are not justified by the meagre economic gains. A number of Labour people are involved in today’s protests, including MPs who’ve spoken at rallies around the country.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/76579212/Live-chat-Labour-leader-Andrew-Little-on-TPPA-signing
“THAT in light of the Labour Party’s strong commitment to both the benefits of international trade and New Zealand’s national sovereignty, and recognising the far-reaching implications for domestic policy of the proposed Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement, in which trade is only a small part, Labour will support signing such an agreement which: …
(g) Had been negotiated with full public consultation including regular public releases of drafts of the text of the agreement, and ratification being conditional on a full social, environmental and economic impact assessment including public submissions.”
Sept 2013
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/09/17/cunliffe-moves-labour-off-the-fence-on-the-tppa/
Full remit here /cunliffe-declares-war-national-tppa/
Labour believes the conditions reflect protections in the 2008 free trade agreement it negotiated with China.
It has previously withheld support for the TPP pending the release of the final draft of the 12-nation deal.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/70496910/labour-sets-nonnegotiable-stance-on-tpp-free-trade-talks
Leader Andrew Little said his party supported free trade but would not back the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) unless the five “non-negotiable bottom lines” were met.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/70496910/labour-sets-nonnegotiable-stance-on-tpp-free-trade-talks
“If they opposed it, why would they confirm they would not pull out of it?”
Because there would be significant consequences, including ones that aren’t apparent yet.
@Karen,
No, sorry I didn’t Weka, but I trust Jessica Williams. She wouldn’t have said that if it wasn’t true, and Shaw has never denied it.
Here’s the tweet exchange. Williams says she asked Shaw “if, practically, an exit from the TPP by a future L/G govt was possible”,
“then @jamespeshaw said it’d be better to fix the problems than dump it.”
In there is she also implying something from Shaw’s silence between question and answer (it’s unclear what).
That’s all we have to go on. I agree with your general assement here,
The Green Party have been consistently opposed to the TPPA right through this process but I haven’t found anything that says what they will do if the get into government if it has already been ratified
(and I have looked!!) I think James Shaw is a very careful person and he is unlikely to make any commitments to withdraw until he knows exactly what the repercussions will be for NZ . Very sensible I think, in spite of what some here believe.
Meanwhile the Greens (and now Labour) will oppose the ratification. Unfortunately parliament doesn’t get to decide this – they only get to vote on any law changes that are required.
weka
You affirmed my later point but did not address my initial (and main) point.
Little admitted the other day pulling out of the TPP was not something he’s contemplated.
Why do you think I owe lost sheep an apology? He lied, I’ve just supplied multiple links over 3+ years demonstrating that his comment was a lie.
“Little admitted the other day pulling out of the TPP was not something he’s contemplated. Although, he has openly stated he opposes the TPP. ”
Yes, I agree with that (except he stated that Labour opposed the TPPA), what’s your point?
Little certainly has played his supporters for fools,
His credibility must be nonexistent.
Blah blah Labour blah blah blach fools blah blah whatever…
Are you sure you’re not a bot BM?
Andrew Little went on the record yesterday saying that Labour will not pull out of the TPPA if elected to Government.
http://www.radiolive.co.nz/Labour-wont-pull-out-of-the-TPP—Little/tabid/506/articleID/112603/Default.aspx
Do you want Labour to pull out of the TPPA if it’s ratified and once they are in govt?
read the rest of the thread. I knew last year that Labour weren’t considering pulling out. This is not news.
So what happens when the renegotiation doesn’t achieve your aims? Either you stay in the agreement or you pull out. Which is going to be?
If you start from the position that you are going to stay then the renogiation is going to be a two way street, and have a low probability of success.
The whole TPP process is a mess. What we got was some weak analysis of the benefits and little on the downside of it. There was no BATNA analysis offered. Helen Clark et al got as far as saying it’s better to be in the tent pissing out, but no further. Countries such as Switzerland have avoided too many treaties and done quite well. Whereas North Korea has also avoided treaties but has not done so well.
NZ blew a raspberry to the USA about nuclear weapons back in the 1980’s and the sky did not fall. Mind you we still have chicken little.
Someone really needs to ask Little those questions.
I’m curious, what do you think Labour should do?
The LP established its 5 points bottom line – a good clear easy to understand position. (And I am not going to go into why the points miss my major concerns.)
The LP has conducted its review of the TPP and decided that these bottom lines have not been achieved – a good clear easy to understand position.
It’s likely that it may be a few years before Labour get to be in the position of renegotiating or cancelling the agreement. This time should be productively spent in:
1. Establishing how to fix the NZ constitutional process where the Executive of one government can substantially modify the sovereignty of NZ without full cross party support or general explicit support of a super-majority of the people; and,
2. Put the partners on notice that withdrawal is an option on the table; and,
3. Undertaking a serious review of the TPP agreement to find out what it actually says and means. (I am surprised when people say that they have read the document and understood it as IMO we will soon have lawyers and academics studying it for years and still having disagreements. Its 6,000 pages are highly unlikely not to contain mistakes, internal contradictions, impossibilities and ambiguities); and,
4. Recasting what the 5 bottom line items are (maybe adding to them); whilst,
5. Cataloguing the successes and failures of TPP as it progresses; then,
6. Measure this catalogue against the yardstick; and if it does not measure up then,
7. Take action by seeking a renegotiation with a 6 month automatic withdrawal attached.
And meanwhile there is a tsunami of shit heading the world’s way in terms of economic and environmental issues. It’s only a matter of when this starts to be felt. So when NZ reaches TPP nirvana in 2030 (getting a 0.7% cumulative lift in economic activity) then my guess we should also be hearing the waves of the tsunami or already in its grips. Good timing.
Thanks for the thoughtful comment, this is the kind of thing I had been hoping for.
“Someone really needs to ask Little those questions.”
Looks to the media.
😉
“Why do you think I owe lost sheep an apology?”
As I highlighted above, Little admitted the other day pulling out of the TPP was not something he’s contemplated, thus lost sheep was correct.
But I don’t disagree with that bit and that’s not what I called a lie. I’ve also stated multiple times today that I’ve known since last year that Labour weren’t considering pulling out.
Lost sheep said “They have always supported the TPPA”. That’s a lie. I’ve explained how here,
“and that’s not what I called a lie”
Yet, you quoted it (see above) when doing so (called a lie).
Because I wanted the lie to be in context. You could have asked for clarity. I’ve explained myself extensively so there’s no confusion now.
By doing so, you misled others.
There is no confusion now because I called you on it.
Yeah, nah. Lost sheep wanting to run a line and chose to start with a lie and I called them on it. If you want to make out this is about who is technically correct about a sequence of events, have at it. I don’t give a shit. You could have asked, I would have told you, and in the end you did and I did, so what’s the problem? Weird to be using energy on this when it’s Ls that told the actual lie.
Weka, Labour fully support the principal of a TPPA agreement.
They do not support some of the clauses in the current agreement, but, they have confirmed they will not withdraw from the TPPA.
You have only linked to information that indicates Labours objections to some clauses, and linked to nothing that indicates they are against the TPPA principle itself.
Can you please link to any point at which Labour has said they do not support the TPPA in principal, as opposed to just some specific clauses?
Can you explain to me how confirming they will remain in the TPPA, despite their objections to some clauses indicates that Labour does not support the agreement as a whole?
If you can do both of those I will accept I was mistaken.
Initially, I was merely correcting the false implication you made (by the use of the full quote). You replied, thus dragged the conversation on.
@lost sheep,
Can you please link to any point at which Labour has said they do not support the TPPA in principal, as opposed to just some specific clauses?
You didn’t say in principle, you just said they had always supported the TPPA, and I’ve demonstrated that they haven’t. Yes we can have a semantic argument about that but I think the real difference is that I accept that Labour are pro-free trade but I also know that they were dealing with a secret agreement and an internal civil war and so their approach looks odd to people who don’t take that into account. They’ve gone through various processes and changes in their position precisely because the agreement has been secret and been changing. It makes sense as a pro-free trade party that they would take a pro-TPPA stance so long as certain conditions were met, but it’s pretty clear that back in 2012 there were serious concerns about those conditions.
Labour have been playing the middle game, isn’t that what you want? Remind me, do you think Labour should leave the TPPA if it’s already ratified by next time they are in government?
Can you explain to me how confirming they will remain in the TPPA, despite their objections to some clauses indicates that Labour does not support the agreement as a whole?
Pretty simple, and this has been commented on a fair bit. It’s too difficult to leave once in. I don’t hear Labour saying oh the deal is great except for these five things. I hear Labour saying there are serious problems with this deal and there are serious problems with getting out of it. Of course that message comes out in a strangled way because of the neoliberal/left wing split in the party. So while I feel that Labour have been pretty consistent within their own kaupapa over the past few years I can understand that others feel differently.
btw, the difficulty of leaving once in is an issue for the GP too IMO. I don’t know what NZF are thinking. Anyone?
@TC, ah, I forgot you like to have the last word. Have at it mate.
This is the Chris Trotter who today proclaimed
right?
That old dinosaur should be put out of his misery before he starts soiling himself in public.
This is a good example of why science and commerce are not to be trusted until they are brought under the control of a third part of society that puts ethics and nature first. In the absence of the precautionary principle, we are currently
gamblingplaying Russian Roulette with some pretty basic fundamentals of life.Zika is one of the emerging new illnesses associated with human-manipulated environments. It causes birth defects when contracted during pregnancy. 11 cases in NZ so far.
http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2987024/pandoras_box_how_gm_mosquitos_could_have_caused_brazils_microcephaly_diasaster.html
Brazil is one of the biggest GMO experiments on planet, earth and has had toxic chemicals sprayed over its environment and populations for a generation
The mosquitoes are an extension of the experiment being waged against human rights
Zika has been known of for generations, with few to none ill effects
Nope, zika found it’s way out of Africa in the sixties and thanks to aedes aegypti has spread through the Americas.
Which part of my comment are you disagreeing with, specifically ?
In Africa, where a majority have an immunity developed over many generations.
Not so in the Americas where in little more than a generation aedes aegypti has spread the virus through a large youthful population with an exceptionally high birth rate and no immunity.
Did you read the article joe? I’d be interested in your thoughts on it.
The author suggests a mutated virus in Brazil is causing previously unheard of effects…and then I scrolled down….
Author’s note 2: I’m grateful to David Murphy for carrying out this work, and to James Babcock for drawing it to my attention. It appears that the hypothesis set out above is probably incorrect, and this must be a matter of considerable relief to all concerned.
The sentence regarding Zika, was independent of the sentences concerning genetic experimentation in Brazil
The impacts of genetic experimentation over extended periods of time in Brazil, are largely missing from the mainstream discussion
‘The virus’ is the primary fascination, once again. At the exclusion of logic and rationale, from what I can tell
Change of topic folks – Bomber on TDB has just announced he is going to go into competition with Seven Sharp on TV1 and the other show on TV3 with Heather duPlessis Allan at 7pm. It will be live on his site at 7.01 – but its early yet and he is going to announce more later about it.
So we will have an alternative current affairs programme we can go to after John Campbell on Channel 50 each night. What mana from heaven I told Bomber. Can’t wait.
He should stick to providing advice and policy to politicians. Oh, wait… maybe not. 30 minutes of bitter, anti-everything, frothing and ranting is something that I (and 99.99% of the population) will be giving a wide birth.
Ben what a sour puss you are. Don’t you think it would be nice for a change to get some balance into our daily news. Who wants to be fed with constant drivel about sports stars, film stars, your precious leader who can do no wrong, even saints you know do wrong – what’s your beef – so one-eyed you cannot see there are always two sides to anything at all. Your precious government does lots of things which are wrong but if MSM media has anything to do with it nobody in the population gets the opportunity to be informed. What do you want? a dictatorship in this country. Do we have to go back into history and meet in halls or listen to speakers on soap boxes like they do in Hyde Park (or do you even know about Hyde Park) to hear some truth of the matter. Get a grip Ben – all Bomber is trying to do is get some balance and less of the daily tripe we have shoved in our faces each night. You call Bomber a raving leftie – what on earth is your Government if not a raving Right Wing mish mash. What a loser you are and not too intelligent upstairs if you cannot see my argument.
You lost me when you used the word “balance” in relation to Martyn Bradbury.
The MSM in this country is in a sad state, but you can rest assured that the socialist dribblings of MB won’t make it any better.
p.s it is not “my” Government, it is our Government – that’s right, yours too.
Unfortunately, as I didn’t vote for it and I sleep at night because I didn’t.
You couldn’t do half Bomber’s shit Ben so shut your stoopid mouth. None of you Tory trolls could !
Hi Colonial Viper
+ a Billion
Thankyou for informing us that the flawed TPPA is the fault of the Labour Party.
Your insight into these things is extraordinary. But then, you have the advantage of having the brain of a full time Buffoon. Utter Nonsense dribbles constantly from your twisted mouth like a crazed dog.
This.
Dear Observer (Tokoroa)
I’m afraid you went to sleep on the job, and failed to observe fully as required. This is to advise you that your contract to observe and inform us fully and truthfully has been terminated, though you may like to continue your style of colourfully abusive diatribe, which is very amusing.
edited
Cv speaks a lot of sense re the hypocracy of labour, that’s where it ends though
What did Labour say about the TPPA? All the fragments of comment, when put together like a jigsaw, do they make a coherent whole? Or is it one of those odd results that we need an Aristotle to explain.
Quote by Aristotle: “The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.”
But is this argument about Labour and TPPA a Reductio ad absurdum?
Wikipedia may provide the answer but I’m not going to read it because I want to listen to Monty Python because it is more fun than the argument that is going nowhere, and isn’t going to solve anything anyway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
What if the whole is actually lesser than the sum of its parts as it seems to be?
Time to take a break as we sink into The Philosophers’ Song with Monty Python done Oz style.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtgKkifJ0Pw
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11585707
The Gauche One fretting about the image of cock meeting cock at Waitangi…..gone all around the world etc etc, appalling, blah, pearls, clutched ! Guess he’s not looking forward to the call from some dictator mate calling him a pussy cos’ no summary execution.
No Mr Preen Minster. It was you, the cock that started hauling NZ around the world, makin’ us look like cocks too (cos you’re our Preen Minster)…….it’s that that started it, years ago.
As I’ve always reminded myself…..what the fuck is (self-perceived) venerable Old Auckland Money thinking about this Gauche Nouveau ?
Yep. PM thinks the dildo was appalling! Tut tut. Hypocrisy anyone. Hair pulling. Soap. Dodgy personal habits. He laughs at his own funny behaviour. What a clown making international headlines.
But now Key sucks a lemon.
Yeah, something touched a nerve there.
But there’s something about uptight rightwingers and toy dicks. There’s been a couple of meltdowns now. The Mundy boy lost it in fine style and it was all down hill for them from there… http://usuncut.com/news/watch-jon-ritzheimer-oregon-militia-leader-goes-berserk-over-mailed-in-dildos-and-bags-of-dicks/
I thought Joyce took it very well, and by his twitter invitation, seeing it as the theatre that sometimes occurs on that Marae on 5/2
@ greywarshark
I did not intend to abuse the viper. Merely wanted to draw attention to his stupidity.
Colonial Viper forever echos his hero John Key. They both shout constantly the mantra “It’s Labour’s Fault”
It’s Labour’s Fault
It’s Labour’s Fault
It’s Labour’s Fault
He is one of John Key’s rented trolls. Part of the Key rented troll assylum. Viper exceeds Hosking. Hooton, Garner, Slater, Farrar, English and Fanny Herald.
Mere screaming teeny weeny toddlers the lot of them.
cv simply highlights labour and little angry Andy hypocracy and false pretext, this may make you uncomfortable but some times the truth hurts
Oh dear , Mr.Key feels awkward about images of the sex toy/Joyce going around the world. He forgets to feel awkward about signing the treaty under NZers noses, the day before Waitangi day, without even discussing it with us.
Charming!
Not feeling remotely awkward about molesting a young waitress numerous times or publicly advocating peeing in the shower – EWW – Hypocrisy is Mr Key’s game of choice it seems! So embarrassed that a sex toy found it’s way to Stevie’s “moosh”, yet not embarrassed that his repeated molestation of a young waitress went global! An attitude a certain older man who was a French high official would no doubt relate to.
What kind of discussion do you suggest, the election was the discussion
A discussion about how National are prepared to do what Europe is refusing, i.e to trade sovereignty for a few bucks, would you accept a 1% pay rise in 15 years and agree to any decisions you make about your future be subject to secret off shore tribunals, with no right of appeal?
Lets face it if National were honest about their corporate welfare policies, they would not have been voted in anyway, so your point is irrelevant.
On Assange, Following the Rules or Flouting Them?
Actually, this is exactly what I would expect from them. The powerful think that rules are there simply to punish those that they don’t like. They certainly don’t think that the rules apply to them.
God……Trev’ of The Herald’s a wanker is she not ?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11585729
Surprised she didn’t fix it so she was down at the Nines witnessing and excitedly reporting Mr Gauche publicly gagging on successive American hotdogs. Rather than the dull old business of up North experiencing an actual ‘Waitangi Day’. Waitangi Day the way people actually do it up here in the whiningly announced absence of an effete wannabee Yank. Who’s sniffing out Shaun Johnson down Aux right now.
Shaun Johnson’ll be the next unfortunate target…..you watch. The ‘can’t-himself-do’ criminal banker just loves sucking on the sap of NZ heroes. Guess you can demand anything you want when you’ve got that Preen Minster/John Key conjunction.
Bit wickedly vampirish though……what ?
Saw the prick on the box cuddling up to Mal Meninga too.
It’s a child in large parts of its being.
Jk seemed quite popular with the punters at the nines didn’t he