Wonder not – it’s wasted energy. I still wonder why the little spats between various protagonists within our ‘broad church’ these days.
Sometimes I think I should just shout various folks a hotel room and let ’em get on with it.
When it comes down to it – each can be as bad (or good) as the other.
Unfortunately it just isn’t PC these days to just bang a couple of craniums together.
OMG
LOLZ
STFU – no YOU stfu
Time and energy is precious yes?
No doubt there’ll be many (most) thinking what the fuck are you on about Tim
Remember that it doesn’t even cost them an extra dollar for them to launch a DoS attack on a website.
And there have been documented cases where the security services have taken down cell phone networks, internet access, access to financial transaction systems, when it suited them to.
Remember, in a security and surveillance state, if you don’t have secret or top secret security clearance, you are a second grade citizen. The ones with clearances are more trusted, get access to jobs, contracts and budgets that you cannot get access to, and know more about what is happening in society than you do.
Off for a two week ban. Made comment that looked like it was defamatory, without providing a backing link. Turned out he was correct, so I halved it down. Don’t have time to moderate and read all news.
I was wondering what was up thought i’d been sent to timeout with Ure.
My partner didn’t miss a trick ” have you been banned from that blog site you ‘live on’ …your actually being sociable having a drink without looking at your phone every 10 minutes, ” I said “yeah looks like it.”
She replies “I could tell when I got home, you take a day off work do all the house work including the washing…. this is a first, here give me a look I got banned off lizard club once for arguing with the mod.. nah your alright you could still read just not comment…pity.”
I reckon you’d be in a minority in missing Ure’s disruptive babble. Not that I always disagreed with his points, but the; noise to signal ratio, was way too high. Usually I just found myself scrolling past that distraction, though my wheel finger sometimes started cramping up with the enormity of that task.
pu is actually quite perceptive and highly intelligent imo…i find his comments easy to read …but I am a speed reader….i dont always agree with him of course
Pasipial I agree TS is better without the babble and 2 fingers are slowly recovering from RSI (rapid scroll injury)
Chooky I think you will be in a minority. I don’t miss the incoherence or the Tourette’s like abuse (compulsive utterances of obscenities.)
Can’t say as I miss him all that much.
An obsessive, insecure mediocrity with a thoroughly undeserved ego lurking behind frequently unintelligible composition. His ability to ignore what someone else wrote and instead respond to what was written on the inside of his eyelids was always impressive, though, as was his habit of using that ability to snatch victory from the jaws of delusion.
+1. I came across him many years back – he one of those ‘acquaintances’ of my brother’s and a rough justice crowd of specimens.
Although at the time I thought of him as a bit of a wanker, I’ve come to see that he’s actually a very perceptive and compassionate CONTRIBUTOR – and someone who has successfully overcome the effects of an illness. I have to admire that – it’s not that easy.
It’s a shame others don’t actually see that but its no surprise to me they don’t. But Christ! …. I wish he wouldn’t preach (thanks to TS though – I learned to get passed all that)
hi pasipial, that minority is one tick bigger, i have missed the input from pu.
also i would like to echo comments earlier this open mike, in that i missed being able to read ts, (more than i thought i would), and thank you lprent for the work done in ressurecting the site.
@ marty mars
His approach is to keep on and add on and stir on it then on something else. Too many, and not varied enough. Takes up space on the page, might have to put up a search ‘not pu’ to find the next new commenter.
I was in bed by 0300 while the linux was upgrading itself. Out of bed at 0700 to finish it off. Getting ready for work at 0805. At work with a sandwich and coffee at 0845. Reading startup emails now.
Wow – that certainly makes my own day seem less hectic (and sleep deprivation less extreme). It’s not that I don’t appreciate the time and skill you bring to the maintenance of this site, but you really ought to spread the load a bit further. Imagine if you were struck down by an autumn illness – we’d all end up like Skinny and have to interact with physical people and catch up on neglected activities in the meat-world!
I think BR might be a bit of a compulsive exaggerator/bs artist/attention seeker. I started following him on twitter, all his stuff about his WO dump being the tip of an iceberg, etc., etc., came to zilch. Lots of comparing himself to Einstein and MLK though.
Basically saying leave the market alone even though it is a failure of market that is leading to huge capital gains for its members. The property Investor feels persecuted and is trying to stave off oppression. They are freedom fighters all.
For what its worth I think these RBNZ proposals are perfectly reasonable and quite well thought through.
Most investors – as distinct from speculators – would quite likely learn to live with them. The Property Institute of New Zealand should stick to ITS knitting and butt out of fiscal policy.
Anyone heard about last night’s TV3 Northland snap poll? Winston is ahead on 35%, National’s Mark Osborne is behind at 30% and Willow-Jean Prime trails at 16%. All other candidates at 11% and 8% still undecided. Poll had a sample of 500. Looks like it’s win-win for Winston and a shock result for the Nats.
I just mentioned it over on lprent’s Northland post. Saw it over on TDB when TS was down. Another thing I saw was this!
It just seems churlish to ask Laila for money when Kelvin worked with Key, Winston Peters, Maori Party, John Key, Cameron Slater and David Farrar to deny her entry into Parliament.
winnie may have the legs but where are labour – is little up there banging around to uplift his candidate? I haven’t heard – what is happening with the labour campaign, apart from the leaflets (snif) of course, is there any littlelabour noise at all up there or is winnie just running rings around them all
Labour are asking members to raise a tonne of money for the Northland by-election campaign. The target budget is significant, for a by-election.
One of our Andersons Bay Peninsula Branch organisers said “I could lose that election for just half the money that Wellington thinks it can do it for.”
thank you for the link – I’m not one of her 4100ish likes and none of my friends are labour friends on fb so good to see lots of action from her labour mates supporting her
I wonder when little is getting up there – that should shoulder winnie off the news
I was answering marty’s question about “what is happening with the labour campaign”, not commenting on their chances of winning.
The irony is that I was one of the first people at TS to say it wasn’t a winnable seat for Labour, and got roundly denounced as a defeatist sell-out for it.
The irony is that I was one of the first people at TS to say it wasn’t a winnable seat for Labour, and got roundly denounced as a defeatist sell-out for it.
Not denounced by Standardistas or anyone who can tally up September’s election results, I hope. And as you know, Labour wants to pour money into losing the Northland campaign…
And as I argue in that post, winning the seat shouldn’t be the real point for Labour. It’s a great opportunity to get the Labour message out there.
It’s possibly taboo to say so but the fact is that National losing Northland doesn’t do a hell of a lot to damage their ability to govern. Just means they only need 2 votes from partners (i.e. only the Maori Party or both Seymour and Dunne) instead of 1. So all the excitement about Winston potentially winning is a little misdirected.
Not necessarily misdirected, Stephanie. I heard something curious last night that indicates the difficulties losing a seat causes National. In Parliament, to be passed, a proposition must have majority support. A tie is a loss.
The curious remark was that the funding for the Iraq posting was not covered in the defence forces budget for this year and would need to be paid for with a separate authorisation which would be voted on in Parliament. If that is true, then given the Maori Party and Dunne’s opposition, Key may find himself severely embarrassed when the numbers are counted. At the very least, he’ll need to do some serious sucking up to get one or the other of those parties to at least abstain.
Now, I don’t know whether that really is the case, but for anything contentious, they will need to consult in a genuine way. And for anything that might be a conscience vote, they may be in deep trouble.
I could bring myself to do it if I had to. His winebox work alone deserves it… when he shone some big light into the 1% and the Labour/Nats who benefitted and enabled it.
The Nat candidate, Osbourne is it?, on radio nz this morning presented as jaunty and synthetically positive but of little substance, still using the Crosby Textor ‘look -look’ interpolations long since discarded by his colleagues.
I take little notice of polls, especially samples of only 500 and probably with a margin of error of, oh say, 100% but a win for Winston would be cat-pigeon politics at its best.
Just hope people in the North are now motivated to vote.
I think it would be his last starburst of glory weka, He could end on a high note – the next two and half years as MP for Northland. He would of course need to do all the work he is saying he would do for Northland, not just sit it out for the rest of the term. It could be his last act of service to the people before he retires, and it could be interesting.
I have no idea weka. I should imagine he would assess the political landscape in 2017 and make his mind up from there, but retirement will be looking appealing by then perhaps. He could put his feet up and drink that whiskey that he likes so well.
I don’t think there is that much damage left that he can do. Whilst he has been an enemy to the Left in the past, we have a far bigger enemy in our govt, and that enemy is his enemy.
That old our “enemies enemy is our friend”, comes to mind, even if it’s not a friend you’d like to hang out with, or you’d be embarrassed to be seen with.
I’m just being practical. Who would you rather have in parliament? That kooky inexperienced Mark Osbourne being a nodding dog or Winnie, whose current flavour is anti govt, and who will weaken our govt’s ability to pass bills, if they didn’t get support from Dunne or Flavell?
He’ll stand again in 2017. I reckon he has one more full term in him. The man could do more Parliamentary work on his deathbed than half the National backbench added together.
He does have a lot of vigour and zeal for one so fond of booze n fags. Gotta hand that to him. He has always been committed to work.
As an aside, I thought the age related digs at him by the Labour team, who were sharing the same spot for the street corner meeting were unkind and unnecessary. Would have been fair enough to attack him for his policies but not his age.
Yeah, I’d do it, If I were a Northlander, I’d vote Winnie. There would a moment’s discomfort at the ballot box, a slight twinge of angst at the betrayal of values, but I’d shrug that off for the greater good.
Worth it just to see Key’s face go over all dark when the votes come in.
“I could bring myself to do it if I had to. His winebox work alone deserves it….”
+100.
Me too.
I’m not sure the LP apparatus is yet conscious of how they’re perceived amongst the voting public.
The saying ‘beggars can’t be choosers’ springs to mind for me (and that’s after almost a lifetime of loyalty – until Helen’s 3rd term when I realised I, and many others were just being taken for granted). They’d chosen to just have a lay down instead of trying to roll back more of the Ruthenasia/Rogergnome era – talk about missed opportunities.
Winnie the Poo has an ego the size of that double-rear axled bus he’s getting around in a.t.m – but it seems he is probably the most realistic thing there is of getting rid of a regime/ a junta they purport to despise
I’m not sure this Bi-E and 2017 is probably make or break time for the LP. It’s just a shame that their candidate seems like a thoroughly nice person.
Being unprincipled (by say not contesting/endorsing Winnie) is probably one of the only ways of getting LP principles back – its just that I’m not convinced that’s what they ekshly want to do yet (having allowed a few to have hijacked the party this past 30 years)
Seriously Key put the kiss of death on his no name candidate with his idiot comment “zero chance” you would have thought after his insulting comment made during the cup of tea deal with bent Bankie ” that NZF voters were dying off ” that he would show
some respect.
The interesting aspect is 54% of Tory voters thought they should have been told of the Sabin issue prior to the election, people like to make an informed decision, no one likes being handed bullshit. The 19% either undecided or choosing an independent candidate shows a further rebellion. There is also a lot of speculation that John Carters ‘patsy’ candidate was right in the thick of the alleged cover up. He was an executive member of the Northland (Sabin’s) committee. He has denied any knowledge, something Duncan Garner has labeled bullshit lies.
i must admit I am surprised at how poor the Nat candidate is. Strange choice.
Not only is he lacking in charisma, he is treasurer of the LEC and lives in the same area as Sabin yet says he knew nothing about the investigation into Sabin until it hit the media?
Meanwhile Winston is driving a blue bus around Northland doing old style campaigning that is obviously designed to appeal to National Party voters. I didn’t think Winston could win, but having now seen the way he is campaigning against a totally inadequate opponent perhaps he can do it, particularly if more info about Sabin comes out before the election.
As I said the other day, all Labour and other party voters need to be voting for Winston. He’s got a chance of kicking National out of Northland whereas Labour hasn’t got snowball’s chance in a furnace.
Yep. The weird thing is that there was never really a winning scenario for Labour in any event, and plenty of possible losing scenarios, if you accept that Labour was not going to overturn the 5000+ vote lead that National had after September’s election even when LAB and GR votes are added together.
Winston winning is a big loss of face for Labour. Winston coming in second to National with Labour third, is a big loss of face for Labour. Winston pulling even with LAB as 2nd equal with National winning, is a big loss of face for Labour.
Labour coming in second to National with Winnie third, meh that would be simply meeting expectations – not a win for Labour.
Yep thats right. Today is the day we say goodbye to good faith bargaining and say goodbye to the right to a tea break.
It is indeed shameful and sad. So much hard work getting work rights into law has just gone to waste, and those rights have vanished so easily under the Key Govt.
A new report by two Delhi pediatricians suggests that the sharp rise in childhood paralysis in India is due to the increased usage of the oral polio vaccine, a drug that was banned in the U.S. over a decade ago
Drug companies and regulators have long known about the harmful effects of the oral polio vaccine that includes the live virus. In 1976, vaccine inventor Jonas Salk admitted to the United States Congress that the live polio vaccine was the “principal if not sole cause” of all reported polio cases in the U.S. since 1961, according to Salem News.
Yours is an odd response. The link shows The Murphy (and myself) as having some scientific basis for advising caution against calls for compulsory vaccination.
As I have been consistently saying – you cannot treat all vaccinations as being equally worthwhile under all circumstances and contexts. To do so would be “anti-science” and ignore a whole lot of knowledge and experience we have gathered over decades on vaccination.
You should recognise that instead of red herring The Murphey’s comment.
I accept that the risk doesn’t apply to the particular vaccine that we use in NZ. Indeed, we should be judging each specific vaccine on its particular merits, benefits and risks.
But an estimated 47,500 cases of vaccination related deadly paralysis in a poor country like India gives one a bit of pause.
” This study is an overview of non-polio enterovirus (NPEV) circulating in North India studied from the perspective of poliomyelitis eradication. Wild polio cases declined because of intensive oral polio vaccine immunization. As we approach global eradication of poliovirus (PV), NPEV causing acute flaccid paralysis (AFP) are equal cause of concern.
A total of 46 653 AFP samples (World Health Organization) and apparently 1000 healthy contacts living in the same geographical area were studied (2004-2007). Serological identification of NPEV was done using RIVM-specific pools (The Netherlands). Untyped (UT)-NPEVs were sequenced directly from reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction using pan-enterovirus (Pan-EV) primer (CDC, Atlanta, GA) targeting highly conserved 5’un-translated regions of the enterovirus.
RESULTS:
In this study, 12 513 NPEVs were isolated from the collected stool samples. Seroneutralization had identified 67% of NPEV isolates, whereas 32.6% remained as UT- NPEV. Of the typed NPEVs, Coxsackie-B accounted for 32.3%; followed by echoviruses-11, 12, 13, 7 between 8 and 28%. In sequencing few UT-NPEVs, some were identified also as echovirus-30, 11 and 18 which were probably present in mixtures as they remained UT-NPEV in ENT. Newly classified human enterovirus virus-86 (HEV) (EU079026), HEV-97(EU071767) and HEV-B isolate (EU071768) were isolated in AFP samples.
CONCLUSIONS:
This study provided definitive information about circulation, prevalence and new emerging NPEV in the polio-endemic region of India, hence they should be considered in AFP surveillance. This would help in adopting and planning new strategies in post-PV eradication era in the country. This is the right time to prepare for the future tasks while we head towards a polio-free region.
Science is in a state of human negotiated and perpetual change…
Until a newspaper reports that “scientists say” something The Murphey believes. Then it’s gospel, and worthy of copy-pasting with zero original content.
Oh and here I was thinking that science was all ready to pronounce absolutes like compulsory vaccination, and that people opposed to that stance were “science deniers”. I stand corrected.
That was right about the time you said that goat shit makes a good homeopathic remedy that scientists can learn something from, and then went on to praise Clare Curran’s performance.
PS: compulsory vaccination is opposed by the health profession because it compromises the doctor/patient relationship and evidence (yes, that boring stuff again) shows it would reduce the immunisation rate.
Or perhaps I never advocated for vaccines to be compulsory in the first place, and in your slack-brained inattention you were clutching at straws, because my comments were aimed primarily at feeble attempts to misrepresent research instead, and you couldn’t rebut them.
There are 2 types of polio vaccine used in the world today.
New Zealand and most other developed countries use the inactivated polio vaccine (IPV). This contains dead (inactivated) polio virus – so it can’t cause illness. The vaccine is provided as an injection, usually with other childhood immunisations.
In the past, New Zealand used the oral polio vaccine. Many developing countries still use this vaccine. It contains a live but weakened form of the virus. It is easier to store, transport and administer than the inactivated polio vaccine, and provides longer-lasting immunity. However, the weakened virus can cause polio in about 1 in 750,000 cases. Because of this risk, New Zealand switched to using the inactivated vaccine in 2002.
The World Health Organization plans to withdraw the oral polio vaccine worldwide when polio nears global elimination.
I remember a case where a mother caught polio from changing a nappy after her child had been vaccinated. She thought she had been immunised, but can’t find any reference to it now.
I believe this is part of the reason for the change in 2002.
This NZ Herald article refers to a father – but IIRC I remember the story being about a female and having a photo accompanying it:
“In the years since the battle was won, only a handful of cases of polio have been recorded – including one where a parent appeared to have caught the disease while changing the nappy of his three-month-old baby inoculated with the live virus. Cases such as this led the Ministry of Health to switch back this year to the inactivated or killed variety of vaccine.”
I am. I was born in Britain ion the 1950’s, and I am immunised. I had to be to leave England in the late 60’s.
So yeah I remember the kids with the Brace on their leg, hopping and stumping along . BUT they were always in the thick of the games, or mischief making,
I have a relative who contracted the disease in his childhood. In his late fifties – early sixties, he had an illness that was supposedly related. Apparently, many of the children that survived polio had a similar incident in later lives.
Medsafe’s evaluation is performed to internationally defined standards and is based on data from clinical trials.
The gold standard for clinical trials includes three phases:
Phase 1:
Small numbers of people take the same vaccine using different methods of delivery and/or dosage. Assesses safety and immune response.
Phase 2:
Uses larger numbers of people and compares new treatments with a placebo. Continues to assess safety and immune response.
Phase 3:
Large, randomised trial(s) to test the effect of a new vaccine against a control group. This phase tests safety and efficacy, which is the percentage of people that the vaccine protects from catching the disease.
Provide examples of where and how The Gold Standard has been proven to be followed in development of recent vaccinations as they relate to those used on children and pregnant women
douche – “A douche /ˈduːʃ/ is a device used to introduce a stream of water into the body for medical or hygienic reasons, or the stream of water itself.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douche
The Murphey – your line of reasoning is bloody sharp.
The truth of course is that vaccinations tend to be tested using much easier to measure intermediate indicators (like antibody titres), not real life clinical end points.
But with too many drugs nowadays the real trial is done en masse on real patients post mass marketing.
One reason never to use a recently introduced drug, if at all possible.
My personal standard is to not touch any drug which has not been on the market for 10 years or more. Usually leaves plenty of choices though if you need treatment. A rather significant proportion of drugs are pulled off the market within the first 10 years of mass marketing – or get “black box” warnings added, etc.
CR +100…”The Murphey – your line of reasoning is bloody sharp”…way more sharp than than some other commenters here
…and note they don’t reply to his arguments or anyone else’s directly…they just roll their eyes …or go off on a tangent… or ignore the arguments altogether …and/or diss the person
….makes me think they have vested interests …and are not interested in real discourse
Is that what you think an argument is? Cutting and pasting someone else’s work, presenting it out of context, and lying about the World Health Organisation?
Personally, I’m just waiting for the results of the muffrey’s OIA request to MoH as to which vaccines in NZ have been given “gold standard” evaluation, and also in regards children and pregnant women.
I mean, it’s not like he’s just shallowly demanding blog commenters to do his research for him, is he? “Real discourse” would be him providing evidence for his own claims…
Pregnant women can be immunised with inactive (non-live) vaccines. There is no evidence of a safety risk for the mother or her fetus. In some countries regular contact with a woman during pregnancy is used to ensure she is up to date with her tetanus and diphtheria immunisations and also reduce the risk of neonatal tetanus.
Pregnant women are at high risk for influenza and in New Zealand immunisation against this disease is not only recommended but also funded for a pregnant woman at any time during her pregnancy. There is also evidence that an influenza immunisation in the late stages of pregnancy can also provide protection against influenza in the newborn infant.
A free whooping cough booster immunisation, with a combined tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis vaccine, is free for women between 28-38 weeks of pregnancy to reduce their risk of getting the disease and passing it onto their newborn baby. When the booster immunisation is given before 36 weeks of pregnancy some protection will cross the placenta and may reduce the severity of whopping cough in babies for up to six weeks after they are born.
It is also important for pregnant women, who are at risk of be infected with hepatitis B, receive the course of hepatis B immunisations as soon as their risk is identified.
Live vaccines, e.g. measles/mumps/rubella (MMR) and chicken pox vaccines, are not intentionally administered to pregnant women. Although overseas research has not found any cases of injury to the unborn child when the MMR vaccine was inadvertently given just before or during pregnancy it is recommended that women delay becoming pregnant for one month after receiving a live vaccine.
It is recommended that close contacts of pregnant women are immune to measles and rubella. They can receive the MMR vaccine without risk to the pregnant woman or her fetus.
Here’s what I just did:
I googled: “vaccine schedule nz”
right up the top, because I’m in NZ I guess, we got the MoH imms schedule.
This gives us brand names of individual vaccines.
Those brand names fed into another google search give us the datasheets for each vaccine, e.g. rorateq the rotovirus vaccine. CDC not required. There, now you learned something.
BTW, “no evidence” means “no evidence”, not “no testing”. E.g. the rotateq datasheet advises no doses under specific contingencies on the grounds that those contingencies weren’t tested in trials.
Oh, but McFlock, science is always changing in a permanent and wibbly wobbly way. Those search results might mean something completely different next week.
I can’t answer your Q without context of what the charstring “moon” denotes, if indeed a physical universe exists separately from the subjective universes of forms and the charstring “moon” denotes a specific object or set of objects within that subjectively objective reality. If there is no physical universe, then I believe the A. from my true reality of forms is “Purple Goat Probe”, according to the context of “moon”.
That you are unable to find evidence is a consequence of your laziness. I’m looking at a Google scholar list of pre-licensure trials right now, and I have no doubt that linking to the relevant ones would not result in you thanking me. It would result in yet another arrogant demand for me to do your homework for you.
In that case, let me chop off your legs, homework bludger.
Start with the brand name of each vaccine and the phrase “pre-licensure” and enter it into Google scholar. Alternatively, check the WHO factsheet for each vaccine in the part where citations are listed.
Hey OAB, compulsory vaccination is a bad idea on several levels. Glad we arrived at common ground, at last.
I wonder if any of those pre-licensure trials is going to reduce the absolute rate of death for any of the participants by as much as 1 in 1,000. I’m guessing probably not.
Actually CR, when the “gold standard” consists of three-phase trials processes, then the existence of such trials requires the existence of the gold standard.
And quite frankly, if muffrey is incapable of googling “rotateq clinical trial information” themselves (let alone actually doing an OIA to the people who used the phrase “gold standard” anyway), then muffrey is an idiot.
Because when I used that exact simple google phrase, in the first few docs there was the report submitted to the fda for approval. In paragraph 2 of the executive summary it even has the sentence “The Biologics Licensing Application (BLA) contains three phase 3 trials: study 006, the rotavirus efficacy and safety trial (REST), study 007 the end-expiry dose trial and study 009 the lot-consistency trial.”
So yeah, the testing went through phase three trials. All anyone has to do is do that search with the name of the vaccine they’re interested in, rather than demanding we do their fucking research for them less we then be accused of not being interested in rational discourse.
I wonder if any of those pre-licensure trials is going to reduce the absolute rate of death for any of the participants by as much as 1 in 1,000. I’m guessing probably not.
A mortality rate of about 1.6 per 100,000 for newborns, and a hospitalisation rate of 25 to 30 per thousand.
Yes, basically all FDA approved drugs go through phase III trials. Including the ones pulled post marketing for being unsafe.
Yes, Murphey’s inability to find evidence for the existence of such trials says more about his inability to use the internet than it does about whether such trials exist.
But of course the trials are good for filtering out ineffective and harmful treatments, even if not perfect. Which is why modern medecine is both safer and more effective than all forms of quackery.
edit:
why did I choose rotateq? Because it was the the first trade name I saw from the first google search I did that you should have done before wasting everyone’s time.
You can follow that process yourself for any other vaccination you want to jackoff about. Teach a pretentious idiot to fish, and all that.
/edit
Q. Why would you choose and oral vaccine ?
A1. because sometimes it’s nicer than fucking the vaccine
A2. because it’s better for the midochlorian balance
A3. because otherwise you walk funny
A4. because you obviously can’t use google.
But I already showed you howyou can do it yourself.
Indeed, the process was so simple that if I did not think that you were a complete idiot, I would have been insulted by your demands that everyone else do your thinking for you.
So rather than shifting the goalpoasts, how about you demonstrate that you’ve at least learned how to confirm the existence of phase 3 trials for a vaccine of your choice? You can do it! Two or three simple google searches. Heck, pick an intramuscular vaccine for all I care. You remember how? google for the nz vaccine schedue, that list will gove you the brand names. Then google the brand name with something like “trials information” or whatever, and you can get the submission for fda approval off the fda website. It’s so simple that even you can manage it.
The position I have expressed previously has never change nor will it
I am not for compulsory vaccination of any kind
There is no requirement for me prove corruption and fraud inside the corporate controlled industry processes and practice which many here conflate and confuse as being ‘the science’
That corruption fraud nepotism cronyism lobbying and profiteering exists is not debatable only the degree of damage and loss caused to human life and well being is
The onus is on those of you who need to believe ‘the science’ exists in a vacuum outside of the fraudulent and corrupt practices of the pharmaceutical and vaccine industry as it relates to this discussion
You wanted evidence that the “gold standard” clinical evaluation. The description of that evaluation that you, yourself, provided is shown to exist by the few seconds of googling I did for a random vaccine.
I showed you how to find that evidence for any specific vaccine you care to name.
Do you thank me for my patience? No. You shift the goalposts.
The lesson here is that your question about “gold standard” evaluation was irrelevant to your objection, and that you probably didn’t understand its meaning anyway.
hypocrisy |hiˈpäkrisē|
noun ( pl. hypocrisies )
the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one’s own behavior does not conform; pretense
hypocrite |ˈhipəˌkrit|
noun
a person who indulges in hypocrisy.
Is that an acknowledgement that the demand you made for evidence of “gold standard” evaluation of vaccines, a demand I met and showed you how to replicate, a demand that we’ve all wasted a solid couple of dozen comments on, was completely irrelevant to the point you were trying to make?
Is that an acknowledgement that the demand you made for evidence of “gold standard” evaluation of vaccines, a demand I met and showed you how to replicate, a demand that we’ve all wasted a solid couple of dozen comments on, was completely irrelevant to the point you were trying to make?
No
There are no requirements prior to FDA approval and licensing that a vaccine must undergo independent study by researchers that have no financial interests and or industry ties in order to validate a vaccine maker’s claims
Your demand for information re:the “gold standard” is below.
Provide examples of where and how The Gold Standard has been proven to be followed in development of recent vaccinations as they relate to those used on children and pregnant women
Nowhere does it mention your requirement for whether the research involved “researchers that have no financial interests and or industry ties”. That was not even mentioned in the longer description of “gold standard” clinical evaluation.
So your demand for information was irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.
Let’s make one thing absolutely clear: McFlock is walking all over Muffrey, who has utterly and completely failed to make a single valid or valuable observation since first stinking up the place.
Nothing but lazy worthless demands for plagiarised homework.
Nowhere does it mention your requirement for whether the research involved “researchers that have no financial interests and or industry ties”.
Given the comments and links I have posted the implication should be self evident
That you can only see one angle at a time has been self evident to me a long time
That was not even mentioned in the longer description of “gold standard” clinical evaluation.
Q. Why would it be ?
So your demand for information was irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.
That you only see one angle at a time does not make my point irrelevant
The causality between ‘the gold standard’ and failure in regulatory process and practice by the FDA should be self evident to even the dimmest of light bulbs
desperate |ˈdespərit|
adjective
feeling, showing, or involving a hopeless sense that a situation is so bad as to be impossible to deal with
Let’s make one thing absolutely clear: McFlock is walking all over Muffrey, who has utterly and completely failed to make a single valid or valuable observation since first stinking up the place
That you can only see one angle at a time has been self evident to me a long time
So now it suits you to be able to see things from different angles, and yet only a few weeks ago you insisted taking comments purely on their literal meaning because you had no “context” for any other meaning. 🙄
Let me be completely clear: your enquiry was not couched in terms of anything relevant to wider issues of scientific corruption. It was purely a demand for proof of a specific narrow fact. If the answer that satisfies your request does not satisfy your concerns, then you failed to express your concerns accurately. This is not my problem.
If you are looking for disclosures of conflicts of interest by medical researchers, perhaps you should use the resources I gave you as starting points for further google queries. When you find the published clinical trials, you’ll find any conflict declarations.
Go on, surely you’re capable of it. At a purely random guess, after less than 5 minutes of googling you’ll find something like “T.V. declares advisory board membership, consultation fees, and honoraria from Sanofi Pasteur MSD and advisory group memberships and lecture fees from Merck, GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals, Novartis, and MedImmune; A.K. declares no conflict of interest; R.B. declares advisory board membership at Novartis, Pfizer, GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals, Baxter Biosciences, and Alexion Pharmaceuticals; and N.K., M.B., S.T., and A.F. declare that they work for Sanofi Pasteur MSD, the company that commercializes the pentavalent rotavirus vaccine.
This study was sponsored by Sanofi Pasteur MSD.
The trial is registered on ClinicalTrials.gov: National Clinical Trials Identifier (NCT ID) NCT00443846.”
to me the vaccination of pregnant women to provide supposed immunity for things like measles in their unborn children and babies , is quite shocking and dangerous ….whatever happened to natural immunity and passing this on to the baby?
it reminds me of the Catholic Church males wanting to take over the lives of women and children….say no more!
Yes, the whooping cough vaccine take up among pregnant women was low, if I recall rightly below 20%.
I think most women sense a vaccine at that time is a bad idea, otherwise rates would be almost 100% as it’s when you focus on doing everything correctly.
But the idea women might feel and know something that medical science does not will of course be ridiculed by the usual braying idiots.
Re the Church, and what was until recently an overtly controlling and often abusive medical profession, we forget how far things have come, which is why growing threats of compulsion or prosecution over vaccine compliance are concerning.
Personally I don’t think we will go there. Other currents in health are pushing things further in a more positive patient-centred direction.
”Faith healers” is your construct, nothing more, and has nothing to do with my comment.
A world of difference exists between your fantasy faith healers and the mothers who make a large proportion of the health care decisions in the world. Thankfully most no longer see doctors as infallible.
But that’s just it KJT, I do want “evidence”. I want evidence that a given treatment is going to make a big positive difference to me in the environment that I am in now, in the life that I lead, for my current age and health circumstances. Not in Bangladesh, not in the NZ of half a century ago, not for an intravenous drug user with a falling over immune system, not for some theoretical outbreak scenario, but for me right here and right now.
And sorry mate, as far as I can see for most of the vaccinations out there in 2015, they will improve my likely life expectancy by literally about zero. Not even an extra week out of 80 years. I’d do a thousand times better simply taking an extra walk every day and getting some vitamin D.
So given that, please excuse me if I don’t rush out and pump my body full of hyper reactive immune stimulants because certain people have come to a faith that it is somehow the rational thing to do.
When did I say anything about mothers, or the infallibility of Doctors.
It is because individuals are fallible, and inclined to be subjective that we have the “scientific method” of objective evidence.
Observations of individuals have value as empirical evidence, but some things need huge sample sizes to find out the reality.
There is no such thing as “anecdotal evidence”.
The failures are when someone ignores science, for dogma. It is even worse when it is someone who is supposedly intelligent and well educated enough to know better.
To go back deliberately from centuries of the enlightenment to dark age superstition, as so many seem to want to do these days.
I want evidence that a given treatment is going to make a big positive difference to me in the environment that I am in now, in the life that I lead, for my current age and health circumstances. Not in Bangladesh, not in the NZ of half a century ago, not for an intravenous drug user with a falling over immune system, not for some theoretical outbreak scenario, but for me right here and right now.
It’s not all about you, though, is it.
It’s also about the baby too young to be vaccinated, or the child with allergies, or the immune-compromised person on chemo. All of whom you deliberately endanger because of your choice to not vaccinate. It’s about the drain on the health system in an outbreak, both treating people who refused to vaccinate (and of course dealing with the rush of selfish fools whose personal danger threshold has finally been met). And how that drain affects the quality and availability of care for patients who are not the paranoid or self-absorbed authors of their own misfortune.
Even if your personal threat assessment were correct and didn’t rely on almost everyone else being less selfish than you, you’re nothing more than a freeloader or a scab. It’s alright for you, stuff everyone else, mate.
@KJT, I think we were talking past each other because I had thought your first response had been to me, but it was for CV.
I agree there is no such thing as anecdotal evidence, as such, but place a lot of store on lived experience, stories, and case studies. And you acknowledge the place of empirical evidence except when large amounts of data are involved. That is a point often missed by people who love the nonsensical term ‘anecdata’ without giving any context.
Planning health service design, particularly in countries like NZ with far flung communities, clinical guidelines for health services (particularly sensitive ones), and managing multiple conditions are examples of areas in which a cookie cutter aggregate approach often doesn’t work.
I also think reported experience acts as early warning of problems with medicines, devices, and treatments. This is often dismissed by people in positions of power, a problem that’s not even acknowledged yet, let alone addressed.
There is also too little acknowledgement of the need to research areas in which trade-offs appear to have been unwittingly made, such as the rise of obesity and allergies being linked with the overuse of antibiotics.
It’s little wonder part of the public feels a bit disenchanted, and probably accounts for the seeming paradox that some of them are ”educated enough to know better”.
As I said, I am all for evidence. I want the empirical data. I am not dissing evidence. Objective, empirical evidence is crucial, I agree.
McFlock says that “it’s not about me”. Fair enough then. Let’s look wider. What is the life expectancy of a NZ baby who gets all his vaxx’s versus a NZ baby who gets none?
Is their life expectancy even a month different?
Death not the only endpoint you say? OK how about in terms of QALYs then? Where’s the much vaunted “evidence” there on how a NZ baby who gets all the vaxx’s does so much better than one who doesn’t?
QALYs too difficult? OK how about hospital stay days. How many fewer hospital stay days does a full vaxx’d child have in their first 18 years compared to a child who is not vaxx’d at all? Is there any measurable difference due to the vaccinations?
Still too difficult? How about time off work. A fully vaccinated adult – how many fewer days do they take off work a year on average than a totally unvaccinated adult. Is the number even a single day of sick leave?
Surely you have empirical evidence for these meaningful end points, right? Some of it right? Any of it?
Even if your personal threat assessment were correct and didn’t rely on almost everyone else being less selfish than you, you’re nothing more than a freeloader or a scab. It’s alright for you, stuff everyone else, mate.
Stop getting preachy and moralistic and show me the empirical evidence of actual clinical outcomes and end points benefit as per the above. For any individual NZ vaccination or group of vaccinations that you care to reference.
By the way, my position is not about “stuffing everyone else.” They are welcome to get all the injections into their body that they want and that they consent to.
I am not being dogmatic about this. If a situation arose with sufficient cause – I too would certainly get vaccinated; and have before in the past.
CR, are you saying that you haven’t looked at the evidence before starting your campaign? I’m impressed by your evidence-based approach /sarc
HPV. For a start.
Lord save me from anti-vaxxers who claim to have been persuaded by evidence yet seem incapable of googling it themselves.
By the way, my position is not about “stuffing everyone else.” They are welcome to get all the injections into their body that they want and that they consent to.
Unless they can’t. In which case they can only rely on herd immunity, the herd immunity that you choose to weaken. But in the case of an outbreak, you might be able to run and get the jab in time. They can’t. So yeah, you are stuffing them because of your own freeloading.
How interesting, the study admits that prevention of genital wart is the main QALY benefit of that vaccination, not the prevention of cancer. That’s not how that vaccination was sold to parents, and not how it continues to be sold to parents.
I’d be interested in what that actual break down is.
I’m also impressed that getting the vaccination can add 266 QALYs to someone’s lifespan. That’s darn impressive.
Unless they can’t. In which case they can only rely on herd immunity, the herd immunity that you choose to weaken. But in the case of an outbreak, you might be able to run and get the jab in time. They can’t. So yeah, you are stuffing them because of your own freeloading.
Freeloading? You’re making a big mistake as to who is taking our freedoms for granted, sir.
I’m healthier in general without vaccinations, so the dude without a spleen will do just fine around me, thanks. Although using your rationale, I hope his weakened immune system doesn’t spread stuff around. Perhaps you should propose that they live in oxygen tents kept well away from the rest of society.
I’m also impressed that getting the vaccination can add 266 QALYs to someone’s lifespan. That’s darn impressive.
Ah. I understand now. You try to make evidence-based decisions, but you’re illiterate as well as selfish. Hopefully nobody believes you’re a doctor, eh.
I’m healthier in general without vaccinations,
You have evidence for that, eh? Why didn’t you cite that, rather than having me do your homework for you?
Although using your rationale, I hope his weakened immune system doesn’t spread stuff around.
You might want to get vaccinated, just to be safe…
Edit: yes, freeloading. Your freedom is just like a scab working during a strike, or a non-union member getting the same deal as the collective earned by union bargaining.
So explain it to me – if a school girl takes that jab, she doesn’t get 266 QALYs added to her life?
Who does, then?
edit:
Edit: yes, freeloading. Your freedom is just like a scab working during a strike, or a non-union member getting the same deal as the collective earned by union bargaining.
So you see yourself as the union boss whipping workers into line?
So explain it to me – if a school girl takes that jab, she doesn’t get 266 QALYs added to her life?
Who does, then?
Damn, you’ve exposed the real scientificism fraud! All the doctors go into a secret chapel and sacrifice the qalys to the CEOs of Big Pharma, but don’t tell anyone.
🙄
I’m not a union “boss” (you’re really going full tory, now, eh). But you remind me a bit about an ACT on campus guy I encountered back in the 1990s who was proud of his claim that Richard Prebble’s “I’ve Been Thinking” was the only book he’d ever read cover to cover. I was having difficulty figuring out whether he really was that stupid, or he was only moderately delusional while craftily feigning what he thought was moderate idiocy. Same deal with you.
So if those additional 266 QALYs mentioned in the computer simulation/modelling projection report you linked to don’t all go to a single school girl getting the vaccination, does it then mean that the QALYs are shared amongst a larger group of school girls getting the vaccination?
Newer vaccines are not just made available and put on the NZ vaccination schedule but go through a fairly stringent process of consideration by the likes of PHARMAC.
I’m beginning to find it concerning that someone who is registered with the NZ chiropractic board continues to provide opinions and advice well outside his mandated scope of practice.
I’m beginning to find it concerning that someone who is registered with the NZ chiropractic board continues to provide opinions and advice well outside his mandated scope of practice.
I’m providing a critical point of view highlighting many historical problems with vaccines and supporting the case for the status quo – no compulsory vaccination. Why do you see that as a problem? Do you think that the public discussion would be better left to a very small section of society from within the medical establishment?
BTW I’ve openly publicised very similar points around Dunedin, in the local papers and made them to people at Otago medical school. So I stand by my perspectives.
But he was just about to show us how the Lords of Sciencism decide who “gets” the the 266 QALYs…
McFlock – the computer modelling report you linked to shows that the benefit to 40,000 or 50,000 school girls being vaccinated against HPV every year is 266 QALYs, yes?
I mean, you kindly found and linked to the report yourself.
Is there now some difficulty with these numbers which means that you don’t wish to acknowledge what the report says?
“I’m providing a critical point of view highlighting many historical problems with vaccines and supporting the case for the status quo – no compulsory vaccination. Why do you see that as a problem? Do you think that the public discussion would be better left to a very small section of society from within the medical establishment?
BTW I’ve openly publicised very similar points around Dunedin, in the local papers and made them to people at Otago medical school. So I stand by my perspectives.”
If all you are doing is arguing for the status quo – no compulsory vaccination i believe you are wasting your time as the persons you are arguing with are also for non compulsion.
In reality what you are doing is spreading thinly veiled anti vaccination propaganda this is what you have done numerous times on this website over the last couple of years. Once again I would point you towards your own bodies code on the scope of chiropractic practice and not make claims to have any special knowledge in the area of immunisation over and above those who are specifically qualified in that area.
Certainly some of the commentary you have provided to papers is misinformed drivel
OK you’d like firmer numbers McFlock? Fair enough.
Est 28,500 girls born in NZ last year, so McFlock (out of 57,242 live births), the numbers are in the right ball park.
So 28,500 girls (approx) have to be vaccinated to gain 266 QALYs.
Oh my, that’s an advantage of roughly 0.0093 QALYs per girl vacinated. Or just 3.4 quality adjusted life days advantage on average for a vaccinated person compared to a non-vaccinated person, over a typical 80 year lifespan.
Once again I would point you towards your own bodies code on the scope of chiropractic practice and not make claims to have any special knowledge in the area of immunisation over and above those who are specifically qualified in that area.
Do you really think that people should be kept in the dark or that only a narrow section of society should have a valid say.
People should know that their kids cannot be excluded from enrolling at school because they have not been vaccinated, they should know that a third of medical doctors refuse to take up the flu jab even though it is offered to them for free, they should know that as in the case of the MMR vaccination in the UK in 1992 and more recently the MeNZB vaccination in NZ important facts known to researchers and decision makers about those vaccinations were not communicated to parents in a timely way.
You may not think that people should know these things, that these facts are inconvenient to acknowledge, or you may think that they somehow comprise “special knowledge” that people like myself should be sanctioned for referring to, or you believe that “informed consent” doesn’t require a full discussion from all sides, but of course, I disagree.
In reality what you are doing is spreading thinly veiled anti vaccination propaganda
No, I pretty much stick the facts, but I will sometimes use values and priorities which may not be yours or may not be the conventional medical establishment’s, to interpret them differently.
There is everything in the document that will lead you to the actual numbers used. This is how sciencing works. You can go and check their figures.
Once you supply the actual denominator used in the document I referenced, I will then tell you why you fucked up with your “Oh my, that’s an advantage of roughly 0.0093 QALYs per girl vacinated” idiocy.
I didn’t factor in the vaccination penetration rate, right?
Doesn’t really matter though, I was only after an answer which was in the correct order of magnitude, and I have it now: on average, a few days of benefit over a typical lifespan, and mostly from a reduction in genital warts not from a reduction in cancer.
No, CR, you’re still adding your own data to the published document. You don’t need to. Use their data.
However, given that you’re obviously illiterate and can’t review or repeat the analyses you’re going off 1/4-cocked about, and you obviously don’t care what the actual evidence is, I will describe your abuse of the QALY abstraction.
You’re applying a population average to individuals and assuming that it is their individual net benefit. You wouldn’t do that with a change in the average real wage, would you? Maybe we should just say that it’s 3 or 4 randomly-chosen 12y.o. girls dropping dead every year in an unvaccinated cohort, saved by 100% vaccination. By your math, that would also equal 266 QALYs. How many random 12y.o. girls are you happy to see drop dead every year before people should prevent it? 5? 10? 500?
For someone so critical of the scientific method, you certainly can’t practise it.
BTW, I won 500 QALYs playing poker with the Lords of Sciencism last night. I’m gonna use them to reanimate Jenner.
But I think I made my point. Tens of thousands of people vaccinated every year for a (very) slight population benefit – assuming the vaccination keeps working as intended.
Just note that your example of how many people I want dropping dead out of the 266 QALYs is misguided as the majority of that benefit is due to a reduction in genital warts not cancer, and people don’t drop dead of genital warts.
In fact, parents should probably be told that the major assessed benefit of the vaccination is vs genital warts, not from preventing cancer as they have been led to believe.
But, as you illurstrated, the less benefit accrued by individuals means the greater number of individuals get a direct benefit. So “Tens of thousands” (you’ve still not managed to read the evidence rather than guessing, eh – great evidence-based opinion you have) of unvaccinated people getting warts would be much more significant than the bare minimum three days.
And, of course, cancer in later years is still the one people really would want to avoid (as well as warts), and contributes to the QALY. The population benefit is slight. The personal benefit to some individuals is extreme. The personal benefit to others is slight. But the problem is that there is no way of picking which individual will avoid cancer when she is 30, and which individual will never even be exposed to HPV in the first place. But telling everyone that there is “(very) slight” is an outright lie to the woman who will get cancer at 30, and an unverifiable truth to the woman who will never be exposed to HPV.
So, to sum up, you don’t understand the criteria you explicitly demanded, your “evidence base” involves blind guesswork rather than actually looking at the evidence, and you think that the most common complication must be the most serious thing people need to be advised of, and your idea of shedding light on the issue is to lie to people whose lives it would otherwise save well before most other people will face mortality.
You’re not just patently out of your depth, you’re dragging other people under as well, “doctor”.
McFlock, you win, I don’t have a biostatistics degree, I don’t have university library access to academic papers.
You think a 266 QALY benefit from vaccinating tens of thousands of people and spending millions of dollars is a good deal, and that is assuming the vaccination behaves as predicted over the next 20-30 years of which there is no evidence, you approve it for your own daughters so they can pick up an average of 3 quality adjusted life days then.
A lot of parents don’t and a lot of parents aren’t.
I don’t have a biostats degree either, and you can go to your local uni library if you really wanted to. So poor excuses for ignorance there.
I note that your admitted ignorance doesn’t stop you from maintaining your firm (if baseless) convictions.
BTW, I first encountered QALYs studying philosphy years ago. Ran into them in a few other places. Don’t use ’em with my current hat, though. In most disciplines I’ve encountered them they’ve been fairly self-explanatory to those people who don’t want them to push barrows. Follow the evidence, don’t lead it.
McFlock, like I said you win, you think the vaccination has major benefits go for it. Go get it yourself even, it’ll only set you back a couple of hundred bucks.
If you were really interested in empirical research and data you wouldn’t be promoting homeopathy – because it has no validity whatsoever. So you can stop pretending
Actually, I do try to ensure I’m fully vaccinated according to MoH guidelines.
Because it’s a duty for others, as well as maybe having a direct benefit for me. My drinking and diet rest on my shoulders, but I try to ensure they don’t endanger others. But for very little effort, I can make a lifestyle choice to help protect others rather than endanger them by freeloading behind a successful immunisation program.
well good on you McFlock, you take the moral high road, let me know when you take the HPV vaccination too, apparently it’s good for men too, just a bit too expensive is the only issue now, according to officials.
I won’t be introducing those immune altering chemicals into my body though.
Indeed it is good for males, too, and financial restrictions to healthcare are still sadly an issue in NZ – but I don’t think I will share with you the specifics of all of my medical records. It’s not like you’d understand them anyway.
Suffice to say I do try to take all evidence-based measures to minimise my participation in the transmission of communicable disease. Unlike you, freeloader.
Well let me know when you decide to put your money where your mouth, and your sense of duty is, McFlock, scientism acolyte. It’s only a couple of hundred dollars and apparently the evidence is all for it.
BTW re: your medical records eeeew thanks but no thanks. That was not my idea.
No one is asking you about where people go for treatment. What is being asked is whether you think homeopathy has objective or empirical evidence to back it up.
No one is asking about what someone may or not believe works for them. What is being asked is whether you think homeopathy has objective or empirical evidence to back it up.
So you can stop all this bullshit concerning caring for empirical evidence, objective, empirical evidence. Because you don’t. If you did you’d show it but you know you can’t.
Because homeopathy is 100% pure grade bullshit and you can’t show dick in objective, empirical evidence to support it so don’t pretend you give a shit about evidence.
It was good, because it shows how disingenuous you were throughout this entire thread. Pretending to care about empirical evidence that everyone must show to you and prove to your satisfaction when defending their positions but having no intention of holding yourself to same regard when defending your own.
You have no intellectual authority whatsoever when it comes to any debate on the merits of science or medicine because you completely fail to live up to the rigorous demands of evidence you apply to everyone else when trying to defend your own positions.
You obfuscate, hold double standards and fail, refuse, to back up your own arguments.
So yes, it was good. You’re a charlatan and every time you open your mouth to ask others for evidence of their positions this discussion can be pointed to, to show just how little you actually care for evidence. You are in no position to ask any one to ever back up any claim they make.
As I figured, your cheap goading was all about your need for a sensation of intellectual, and moralistic superiority. You don’t know me from a bar of soap and I have no intention of living up to your pretences. Fuck off.
Hey, don’t get mad at me – Cheap goading? You’re the one who is all about empirical, objective evidence. That you can’t show to support your own notions is no fault of mine.
Conventional medicine fails a lot of people and they will go elsewhere. It’s not brain surgery.
Indeed. The tragedy is Steve Jobs syndrome, where conventional medicine would very likely save a life but the patient listens to fools like you until it’s too late.
And I do put my money where my mouth is. That’s why I go to conventional doctors who have an evidence base for their treatments.
The mistake is there are no requirements prior to FDA approval and licensing that a vaccine must undergo independent study by researchers that have no financial interests and or industry ties in order to validate a vaccine maker’s claims
Although in truth it’s all readily available on the MoH, CDC and WHO websites… I don’t know why people rely on the likes of CV and his sock puppets rather than just going straight to the most authoritative information sites.
“Although in truth it’s all readily available on the MoH, CDC and WHO websites… I don’t know why people rely on the likes of CV and his sock puppets rather than just going straight to the most authoritative information sites.”
Two reasons from my perspective. One is that those organisations aren’t infallible (no organisation is). Which leads to the world view/ideology issue. For those of us for whom medical mistakes are not insignificant, trust is a big issue. I tend to sit somewhere between say you and CV in terms of approach, but I definitely don’t trust information from MoH, CDC, WHO just because they say it. I want to look at it and be able to think about it and discuss it with a critical eye.
What I appreciated about your comment is that it was free of the polarisation stuff, and I just got to read some facts. There might be some discussion that comes from that eg I might take issue with your statement that the inactivated vaccine can’t cause illness. I suspect what you meant is that it can’t cause polio, but whether it can cause adverse effects otherwise and to what extent those adverse effects are an issue is a problem for discussion. However it’s unlikely we will get to talk about those things because of the polarisation (and the vitriol/ridicule).
“What I appreciated about your comment is that it was free of the polarisation stuff, and I just got to read some facts.”
” I want to look at it and be able to think about it and discuss it with a critical eye.”
Yes fair enough but you need to understand where those facts come from and the body of evidence that backs them up. Others also post things which they would suggest are “facts” but have little that backs up their position.
I agree that conversations are best without vitriol but would humbly suggest that if that’s what your after this site might not be the best option.
lolz, that’s true. But we do have some good debates here that aren’t total clusterfucks, so I’m always hopeful.
To be honest, I’m not paying much attention to the outgoing links, nor reading Murphey’s content much. Or even CV’s where it’s talking too much detail. I have my own views on vaccination, and am more interested in the ethics rather than endless arguments over the science.
As far as ethics go I don’t think things will change much in our lifetimes with vaccination, can’t see it changing from a voluntary choice…albeit heavily endorsed by the medical profession and government.
Oh yes come on lefties, it was only so long before you threatened a toxic mix of mob rule and taking away the rights of parents to raise children in favour of nanny state knows best.
Of course, the parents that McFlock would most likely target in court would usually be from poorer households with higher illness rates, lower rates of medical care and inability to get legal representation.
Everybody, I introduce to you our modern day “left.”
same with smoking and drinking parents eh and those who do that near children – don’t want non-parents to miss out do we. Who else can we prosecute, who else are endangering their and others children – sugar eaters, coffee drinkers yeah lets get them all /sarc in case you aren’t sure
Of course, the parents that McFlock would most likely target in court would usually be from poorer households with higher illness rates, lower rates of medical care and inability to get legal representation.
Not really, because access to medical care is an issue often beyond control of the poor. But the remuera crowd who took jimmy to the homeopath at the slightest sniffle and refused a vaccine because of what jenny mccarthy said would definitely have some legal problems.
same with smoking and drinking parents eh and those who do that near children – don’t want non-parents to miss out do we. Who else can we prosecute, who else are endangering their and others children – sugar eaters, coffee drinkers yeah lets get them all /sarc in case you aren’t sure
Actually, I think the failure to provide necessities and the negligence laws do not proscribe specific acts so much as leaving it to a case-by-case basis, where the harm/negligence can be demonstrated and the act can be defended (i.e. balancing risks, act not really harmful, factors beyond parental control, etc).
For example, the bourgeois fuckwit with too much time on their hands might have access to the internet, and use it to spread their callous dogma. S.48 would be a good defence against prosecution for a denial of service attack upon them.
They might seek to walk the streets spreading their vile drivel, so s.48 would be a good defence against prosecution for nailing all their doors and windows shut.
Render them silent in any reasonable way: S.48 is there for you. Might pay to seek legal advice first 🙂
do you think a non-parent smoker should or could be prosecuted for smoking around someone elses child? Assuming the stats on passive smoking and so forth are correct. That is endangerment isn’t it.
I like your zeal for child safety, but I fear that the practical threshholds of decisions to prosecute (such as likelihood of conviction and a prima facie case of harm or negligence) require at least a nodding acquaintance with the relative risk of each case, as well as the comparative risk of any avoiding behaviour (like the risk of violence or stress-related harm from asking an addict to put it out, or the risks of the vaccine itself).
the oceans have given there all but there all is just about over…
So at some point in the near future, the PDO will switch from its current negative phase back to positive, reducing the capacity of the oceans to accumulate heat from the atmosphere.
That positive phase of the PDO will therefore see a rapid rise in global surface air temperatures, as the oceans’ capacity to absorb all those Hiroshima bomb equivalents declines – and leaves it to accumulate in our skies. In other words, after years of slower-than-expected warming, we may suddenly feel the heat.
So when will that happen? No one knows for sure, but at the end of last year, signs emerged that the phase shift to a positive PDO could be happening right now…
…Scientists from the UK Met Office’s Hadley Center led by Dr. Chris Roberts of the Oceans and Cryosphere Group estimate in a new paper in Nature that there is an 85% chance the faux ‘pause’ will end in the next five years, followed by a burst of warming likely to consist of a decade or so of warm ocean oscillations.
This Brisbane summer has been way too hot for me. If it gets worse, I think I might just come back home a bit earlier than planned. Funnily enough, I am in the 1% on income figures, but not on a wealth basis. Another 1% fleeing to Aotearoa?
The old cynic in me suspected a deliberate take-down, considering recent revelations re NZ spying game in the south pacific. Nothing would surprise me with this corrupt Natsy mob.
Matses as a fourth official language – exclusive to and compulsory for parliament and parliamentarians.
Linguist David Fleck, at Rice University, wrote his doctoral thesis on the grammar of Matses. He says that what distinguishes Matses from other languages that require speakers to give evidence for what they are saying is that Matses has one set of verb endings for the source of the knowledge and another, separate way of conveying how true, or valid the information is, and how certain they are about it. Interestingly, there is no way of denoting that a piece of information is hearsay, myth, or history. Instead, speakers impart this kind of information as a quote, or else as being information that was inferred within the recent past.
Not a chance.
Gareth Hughes, assuming he makes it into the male leader’s role in the Green Party, is going to demand as the price of Green Party support to form a Government, that Klingon must become an official language in New Zealand.
That is going to be the fourth official language.
In my opinion, the Greens should concentrate on environmental issues only and make themselves appealing, both in policies and personalities, for the National supporters to want to vote for them. For that reason, Julie Anne Genter and James Shaw will be their best bet as leaders.
Being centre will work for them better and will make the Greens powerful, relevant and more importantly will enable them to ACHIEVE something REALLY worthwhile, rather than as of now, more talk and less action. But hey, no problem for me. Let them do ‘whateva’ the ideas of their brains tell them. But, I do agree with my comment. Their heart is in the right place, but head, not so much, I opine.
The problem with that is that most Greens have a strong social conscience which prevents them from leaving everything but the environment to NAct. Actually, given the penetration of capitalist relations of production into so many spheres of our lives, I doubt that separating out the environment is even possible. After all, NAct don’t want to mine the Denniston Plateau because they hate kiwis and snails. They just put making their mates rich first.
Ok folks – now the first Northland poll has come out – showing that indeed Winston Peters has ‘hit the ground running’ – are all so-called ‘lefties’ going to use their brains and ‘do an Epsom’?
As this John Key led National Government is SURELY the ‘main enemy’ – then why on earth would every possible person NOT vote strategically for Winston Peters, in order to take Northland off National?
In my considered opinion, Labour Party supporters should not ‘waste their vote’ on Labour’s Willow-Jean Prime.
I look forward to history being created on a number of fronts with this Northland by-election, where hopefully the so-called ‘left’ will (at last) ‘get’ strategic voting under MMP?
PS: If you listen NOW to Radio Live – you will hear – of all people Sean Plunket – promoting Winston Peters as the candidate who will best provide ‘strong advocacy’ for the people of Northland.
That by voting Winston Peters you will weaken this National Government.
That Sean Plunket can’t believe he’s saying this – but he is.
No. Labour will just patiently wait their turn, in 2017,as being “in power” as the Labour party is more important than putting the brakes on National’s destruction and vandalism.
I have heard that one of the reasons that so many tourists are on the road is that our tourist department is running a program encouraging that. I think it is time to cut that completely, as the more we get, the more accidents and the worse propaganda, and also the more of us who will be injured or die and the amount of negativity towards tourists will grow. It is not a win-win situation and the tourism department and yek need to give a sigh, say I think we have achieved a rise in tourism with this but have reached saturation in this market, and now we must find another line.
Someone emailing Radionz said that many rental companies in the USA refuse to hire out a car to a newly arrived tourist – they have to wait for 24 hours.
Another writer said that NZs reaction to the tourists faults seems to have resulted in them driving a little more self-righteously and perhaps more assertively rather than adjusting their own driving for caution and safety.
The tourism industry has its sights set on far more money to be made, they’re not considering a cap or limit and consider the natural limits to still be a long way off. The big players are motivated by the same things as the dairy kings. It’s all about extraction and profit and fuck the rest of the world. National are willing to support this, because the big players are part of their class, and will just keep on letting tourism do what it wants as long as it works within the neoliberal market ideology.
Junior Hunt, a 20-year-old recycling truck driver critically injured by the machine he was operating, has died.
In an awful accident that need not have happened.
The worker, caught in the mechanism of an EnviroWaste recycling truck in Thorndon, Wellington was found unconscious but still alive by a member of the public. There was some delay before anyone could be found who knew how to release the machinery and free the trapped injured man.
“We are devastated by this tragedy,” EnviroWaste chief executive Gary Saunders said. Mr Saunders added that family and staff had been offered counselling and other support as they began to work through their grief.
“We will endeavour to understand how and why this accident happened – this is our commitment to Junior’s memory and his family.”
He said the company would continue to work with authorities as investigations into the circumstances of the accident were carried out over the coming weeks.
This model of EnviroWaste truck has been a familiar sight in our street for a couple of years.
I have always hated the sight of it.
The truck model is a single-operating one. The machine is designed so that the. . .
While I’m reluctant to point the finger until the findings of the investigation into Junior’s death are published I would have to say I agree with Don Franks suggestion that there should be two people working on this job, for safety.
There needs to be a driver, concentrating on driving (especially manoeuvring a truck on our narrow steep streets) and another worker collecting the recyclables and operating the machinery. These are two separate jobs that require focus. Having just one operator spreads that focus too thin.
I was worried about the safety of the single operator envirowaste trucks when they came into use a couple of years ago. This death is tragic, it will be even worse if is proven that it was completely avoidable, which I’m wondering if it would have been had there been a co worker who knew the machinery and could and free Junior.
he was only 20, how much experience i wonder he had operating quite serious machinery & how long he had been working for envirowaste, just seems young to me, sure at 20 you are capable but surely experience plus heavy machinery is a better mix.
Yes. Will out out marching in Wellington tomorrow.
Hope the rain and gales hold off. We have no rain or wind for two and half months and now it turns up, when theres an important march and two huge festivals this weekend.
IARC indicated that data on long-term incidence of brain cancer will ultimately clarify the nature of the hazard. In fact, there were relatively few regular cellphone users in the Interphone study (which completed data collection in 2004) who had more than ten years use. Three other studies have carried out meta-analyses of all published data on people with over ten years of cellphone use [10-12]. All of these reported a significant risk in gliomas (cancer of the brain). One of these also found an approximate doubling of the risk of being diagnosed with a glioma on the same (“ipsilateral”) side of the head as that preferred for long-term (>10 years) cellphone use (118 cases, OR=1.9; 95% CI, 1.4-2.4). [11]
Are you genuinely under the impression that a loon site’s blather about the risks of spending lots of time with a cellphone held to the side of your head is in some way relevant to a post about where cellphone towers are placed? Because it kind of looks like you are.
Apple realises that it is scientifically plausible that mobile phone radiation may present health risks which may become clearer in the future. They clearly say that carrying your iPhone within 10mm of your body means risk of RF radiation exposure above SAR guidelines. Which of course means everybody who carries an iPhone in their pocket.
Yep, why not remove all resource consent regulations, and community consultation procedures, and let developers and corporations do as they please?
Anyone who objects is a NIMBY.
It’s not your issue and that’s fine, but democracy has been stripped away in many areas in NZ, and this is another.
There are legitimate concerns over negative health effects; re the useful idiot talking point regarding the IARC 2011 classification of electromagnetic radiation as a class 2B possible carcinogen (that it ranks alongside coffee), we have a choice whether to consume coffee, and we aren’t exposed to it 24-7.
We effectively have no choice at the moment in exposure to EMF fields, but taking away all community consultation is extreme and draconian, even if you think the fears alarmist.
Yep, why not remove all resource consent regulations, and community consultation procedures, and let developers and corporations do as they please.
Please Google the logical fallacy “false dichotomy.”
There are legitimate concerns over negative health effects;
Are there? “Legitimate” concerns would be based on known negative effects involving the type of radiation these towers produce and at levels they produce within the radius people might be spending a lot of time in. I haven’t yet seen anything that falls into that category. What I have seen is a lot of hippies who regard anything they don’t understand as a threat, while in many cases using the very same technology they regard as such a threat – “loons” seems entirey appropriate.
What a supercilious patronising response.
The only false dichotomy is you dismissing everyone concerned about EMF and corporate dictats supplanting democracy as a loon or hippie.
I’ve had a bit to do with people who’ve organised in their community to resist these incursions, and they are typically not unconventional types, for what it’s worth.
You’re deploying WO dirty politics tactics – it seems you have no other way of making a point.
The “dictat” is coming from people who refuse to furnish the evidence of known negative effects involving the type of radiation these towers produce and at levels they produce within the radius people might be spending a lot of time in, and yet insist on having a veto over them.
Do you have to climb the cellphone tower to get your head close enough to the bad ju-ju?
RF technicians and engineers know too many colleagues who have contracted unusual tumours and other illnesses to be immediately flippant about the issue.
Anyway why are you arguing for corporate rights to pollute the environment for profit? Because the “science” is on their side?
”Veto” – really?
Community consultation and resource consent requirements are veto rights now? Stop telling lies.
What did IARC rely on if not EVIDENCE to make its 2B classification? It’s not cut and dried scientifically, thus removing EXISTING democratic community rights over the placement of these installations is wrong.
It’s not my fault you can’t provide evidence that cell-phone towers “pollute”, nor that you’re failing to mask your flailing failure by putting words in my mouth.
It’s passive aggressive pigfucker rhetoric though, Tat, so when you stop being a passive-aggressive pigfucker, you’ll experience less overt active hostility.
You called me a liar and had no right to. Simply pointing that out. You also did not address my point about supporting corporate pollution of our environment for profit just because they have been granted resource consent.
You are a nasty angry piece of work. Take a deep breath.
Yeah, I addressed it: you’re lying. I made no such argument. You were asked to provide evidence of harm from cell-phone towers and you immediately started wanking on about the harm from cell-phones.
Then you pretended that means pollution, and started your passive aggressive pigfucker bullshit.
If you don’t like my response to your pig-fucker bullshit, adopt some better ethics.
So your basis for attacking me as a liar is that I was talking about the safety of mobile phone radiation whereas you were talking about mobile phone tower radiation?
Is that it?
Don’t you see that the two types of transmissions are directly and literally (and physically) linked?
Wait, have you even ever worked with RF equipment other than your own mobile phone? Do you even know what you are talking about?
If you don’t like my response to your pig-fucker bullshit, adopt some better ethics.
Passive Aggressive Pigfucker: Why are you arguing for the right to pollute?
This is your usual pattern: your argument fails (never gets off the ground) so you invent a strawman to attack, and then get all whiny when you get a hostile response.
You’re a leftist authoritarian. Once the state authorities have made a decision, the citizens affected by that decision should have nothing more to say or do.
I understand that point of view. And I disagree with it. Get used to dissent.
BTW, stop siding with the for-profit corporates against ordinary citizens.
Once the state authorities have made a decision, the citizens affected by that decision should have nothing more to say or do.
Better, and still no.
For citizens to be effective they have to be credible. The courts will decide on the basis of evidence, not gut feelings. Supporting emotive objections will help the citizens lose every single time.
I’ve been there: many years ago, up at the big table with a vague sense of injustice. The committee simply pointed out that there was nothing in law that meant they had to listen to me, and they were right.
I’ve been there: many years ago, up at the big table with a vague sense of injustice. The committee simply pointed out that there was nothing in law that meant they had to listen to me, and they were right.
So you’re both an authoritarian and an authoritarian follower; i.e. someone who quickly defers to authority figures and authority structures. So be it.
The European Ombudsman doesn’t agree with your view that such talks have to be secret. In respect of the TTIP negotiations between the EU and US, it ordered release of the relevant documents.
And as for the TPP, you do realise hundreds of industry representatives are allowed into the negotiations as cleared advisers? So the secrecy you claim is essential is only applied to the public, not the corporates for whom the deal is designed.
Keeping it secret is the crucial element in presenting this thing as a done deal.
If you can’t grasp that problem, I find it entirely unsurprising you object to community consultation requirements over cellphone antennas.
if powerful people including corporate representatives say that it is important that things remain secret from the citizenry, surely we should accept that they know more than us about these matters than us ordinary people and we should put full trust their judgement.
Is the ‘bad guy bogeyman’ in your scenario the public? As pointed out, industry already has access to the documents
It would certainly fit the tenor of your other comments on this thread, their contempt for public input.
Oh, and Jane Kelsey was unequivocal about the significance of the EU ruling, so your attempt to split hairs over it looks like a Pete George type tactic.
Distributive negotiation. Integrative negotiation. Look them up.
Or carry on with the obtuse and pathetic pretence that everyone who disagrees with your emotive crap is a shill, and admit to yourself that your chances of being selected recede with every single comment you make.
No, the bad guy bogeymen are the evil bad baddy corporations who want to take away your sovereignty. While they’re actually gearing up to take away your sovereignty, you’re busy pretending our negotiating team is going to help them, because authoritarianism!
Own goal, chump.
As for my alleged hair-splitting, stop telling lies about my argument and I’ll stop rubbing your face in your mendacity.
Yeah, I already pointed out that industry have access and input into the negotiating process, of which you seemed unaware, so your ”bogeyman” thing is simply incoherent.
Can’t argue any more though – have things to do.
Industry players know what the list of New Zealand’s bottom lines looks like?
That’s a very serious allegation, probably involves jailtime for the Cabinet Minister or civil servant who told them, and I think I’d like you to provide evidence of that before I take it at face value.
You’re a bit behind the curve with the reality of things, aren’t you? This doesn’t require a ‘leaker’ from the NZ negotiating team.
Wikileaks already demonstrated that the US Govt shares information with US corporations for economic reasons, and Snowden showed that the US and Canada spied on its own allies at the G8 and G20 diplomatic and trade negotiations.
And all NZ internet traffic is captured via the Southern Cross Cable, if not in Auckland, then certainly where it lands in Hawaii. Probably with a Naris device. Any documents, phone calls, emails, attachments, etc that the NZ negotiating team produced, the US has.
The NZ govt. knows the extent of the NSA’s reach. If they let them take the info anyway they’re complicit, and presto! Jailtime.
Are you saying they’re stupid traitors? Are you saying the negotiators don’t understand the meaning of secure communications? That they blab official secrets on public networks?
Well, we are talking about Stephen Joyce, I suppose.
I merely explained what the reality is: that our negotiating positions have likely been compromised from the start. I also explained to you how this would probably have been done.
Culpability, blame, grounds for prosecution, whatever, is an entirely separate issue.
Your perspective is off. This is not about smart people or dumb people. I’m just telling you what has been in place since 2009 and probably in my view before then: mass surveillance and capture of ***all*** NZ communications data as part of our role in the FVEY network.
You may be incredulous that the GCSB and the SIS have played a part in that, but they do have access to the full suite of technologies tools that the NSA applies. Snowdens revelations also showed that NZ intelligence agencies also help to support and improve NSA technolgies. Note that the NSA has been shown to spy on their own lawmakers and on senior officials and delegates of friendly governments.
No effective prohibition stands against any of that now. It is fundamentally anti-democratic.
Thanks to the journalism done by the Herald, we know that if a NZ delegation goes overseas into the near Pacific region for discussions or negotiations – then they are spied on by FVEY systems based here and the data sent to the USA. Accept the revelations, and move on to dealing with them.
”Industry players know what the list of New Zealand’s bottom lines looks like? ”
This comment and others just demonstrate your total lack of awareness of the inherent power imbalance and vulnerability of NZ in the TPP.
You claim to have been at the ”big table” once, and I guess the view of some concerns looks different from there, but you’re being altogether too sanguine about our negotiators’ ability to wrangle something from this rort.
This isn’t some domestic row over resources, it means possibly losing autonomy to legislate because of the threat of investor state disputes. And that’s not a ”bogeyman” – there are scores of examples of investor state disputes to show how it’s already panning out in other countries.
In the linked table, A means “accept”, R means “reject”. Have a look at which clauses NZ rejects and accepts. Compare them to the US position.
Clearly our “disadvantage” hasn’t prevented us from disagreeing with them.
This is why people say there isn’t a shit-show of negotiations bearing fruit any time soon. Outrageous US demands aren’t quite so big and scary when there’s zero possibility of our acquiescence.
PS: “The big table” is a metaphor for any official body that considers arguments and evidence. Nice try though.
Re NZ’s mass surveillance of our Pacific friends and neighbours on behalf of the U.S.
I’m largely uninformed about China’s growing presence in the Pacific. I know very little apart info gleaned from a Simon Reeves BBC doco about China buying up fisheries around the Pacific, and investing in other business. Then there was also the bit on stuffed.co.nz yesterday about Tonga owing China $14 billion, but now I can’t find that link.
Does the U.S want to know what China is up to and asks us to do their dirty work?
Would a TPPA deal block China’s expansion in the Pacific?
Would NZ spying on Pacific nations piss off one of our largest trading partners?
The TPPA deal makes it hard for sovereign nations to push back against or limit the commercial activity of large US based corporations, so to that extent it restricts Chinese businesses from getting any foothold in Pacific countries.
Theoretically then, there could be a link between our spying and the U.S protecting it’s economic interests in the Pacific? Or even Military?
“WASHINGTON — The Pentagon is fortifying bases in the Pacific and looking to revive World War II-era air bases as part of an effort to survive a Chinese missile attack that could wipe out critical installations on Okinawa and elsewhere, military records, interviews and congressional testimony show.”
Then we are beyond puppets. We are now Americans. Although, I think that became apparent a few years ago, when Warners came to town and we changed our employment law for their benefit.
To the empire, we are Socii, or possibly Foederati. We get some benefits by being involved with American empire but as is typical, most of those benefits accrue to the top 1%.
I’m ambivalent about China or any country trying to have influence in the Pacific but I suspect that the TPPA is designed to stop China having influence.
I wish someone from Labour would make clear policy statements about TPPA.
Very interesting why Labour refuses to make clear statements on the TPPA. Suggests to me that they intend to eventually sign and screw the left. Or if National sign it, ah well it’s a done deal.
Morrissey……come in please – it enrages me to hear nothings the like of Deborah Hill-Cone and umistakeable Luddite Jock Anderson pontificating on The Panel RNZ just now re Customs’ apparent wish to demand from me passwords for my phone/laptop.
These ‘identities’, distinguishuishable only according to garrulousness and weird fascination with lawyers respectively, presume to mock my concerns about the invasion (without any pretence to reasonable cause) of my privacy. As though that were their property.
WTF use or ornament are these up-themselves idiots ?
“Possibly, although I doubt that, but it also comes with the significant risk of death.”
What makes you say the risk of death is significant? For most people that’s not true.
“Personally, I’d prefer the vaccination than the actual measles.”
If we’re talking about personal preferences, having had measles, I’d choose measles unless there were specific medical reasons for me personally why it was better to have the vaccine.
“If we’re talking about personal preferences, having had measles, I’d choose measles unless there were specific medical reasons for me personally why it was better to have the vaccine.”
You just don’t get the science behind vaccination do you ?
And you don’t get that ‘the science’ is not the issue
That you do not answer reasonable questions use rolly eyes and insults is a sad indictment on you as a human being as well as the profession you represent
I understand that you mistake your working life and contribution to the profession you represent as being ‘the science’ but it’s not
….just to expand….. this means that after injection, the viruses grow and cause a harmless infection in the vaccinated person with very few, if any, symptoms. The person’s immune system fights the infection caused by these weakened viruses and immunity develops.
I know you don’t believe that is what I represent and I know it is your fear and ego which allow you come up with such blatant slander
IMO your comments and approach represent the core barriers to genuine progress and improvement to this planet and all its inhabitants
I accept the limitations which are placed upon people through dogma institutionalized training frameworks and constructs which most confuse as being ‘professional life’
Boxed into convention and trapped for eternity because of fear and misunderstanding of thy self
“You just don’t get the science behind vaccination do you ?”
Actually I do. You have no way of assessing my understanding of the science because I largely avoid the conversations here on that. The only way to know would be to have a conversation with me, which you haven’t done. Instead you’ve made some assumptions that are incorrect.
You’ve entirely missed the points I was making by my comment, one of which was a response to seeing a pro-mandatory vaccination person talk about their personal preferences. Maybe that was a bit subtle.
Bearing in mind this is in the context of Draco introducing the idea of personal preference to a discussion about mandatory vaccination, it’s because I trust naturally aquired immunity in my situation more than I trust the vaccine, and because I think decisions to vaccinate are context specific and in my personal situation I’d choose what I’d choose (which is a fairly theoretical argument given I was a child when I had measles and if it were now the choice would be my parents’ not mine).
I don’t particularly want to get into the details of my situation online and I appreciate that this probably then doesn’t answer your question very well (am guessing you are looking for specific medical reasons), but for me it takes us straight to the ethical issues around whether people have personal choice and autonomy regarding their health. We now have several decades of debate, work and legislation around that that basically support people’s right to make their own health decisions and be supported in that, which is one of the reasons I’m surprised to see lefties willing to ride rough shod over it so easily.
🙄 @Draco. Slur-based insults instead of engagement, says quite a lot actually.
“Taking the measles vaccine causes your immune system to naturally develop defenses against the measles virus thus leaving you immune to it.”
Again with the semantics. Yes, you are right, but it doesn’t really have any relation to my comment unless you want to argue over the word ‘natural’ for some reason.
With public health information of that calibre, no wonder that some people are sceptical and others are without primary health care skills (and no, by that I don’t mean going to the doctor).
It’s misleading. How measles gets managed by parents is important and the article both misleads (“no treatment”) and fails to direct people to what they should do if their child contracts measles.
Now we can have a semantic argument about what ‘treatment’ means, but to most parents I’ve known it includes how to care for a sick child, what to do about fever, pain etc. The article could be written by someone who had no clue, or this could be the actual message being given out by health authorities (there is nothing you can do). Either way, it’s a good example of both why some people are critical of public health approaches, and why some people have no homecare health skills.
” How measles gets managed by parents is important and the article both misleads (“no treatment”) and fails to direct people to what they should do if their child contracts measles. “
I agree. If measles is presently an epidemic, then this information should be added to the article for the public good. But the cynic in me thinks that it is written to bash home the vaccination message only, and has no interest in helping give information to those that may have contracted the disease on the flight.
And yet the journalist managed to write other things in the article.
The idea that if a child gets measles a parent can just phone and be told what they need to know fails on so many levels. As Molly points out, not everyone has a phone or credit on their phone to make phone calls.
It’s better to have health knowledge before you need it rather than having to learn or take in new things while you are stressed or tired or trying to juggle too many things eg managing a fever at home is a learned skill, not something to just be told over the phone. You can be told over the phone, but you still have to go through the process of learning how to do what you are told. Promotion of a largely unskilled home health care generation also puts the power with the medical profession and MoH (which I’m sure is what is intended), but it actually fails basic public health interests.
I’m of the generation where it was normal for parents to know how to deal with many childhood ilnesses at home. Many of those skills have and are being lost. The system thinking that parents can just phone a doctor (or visit a doctor) when there is any kind of problem is why we don’t manage things as well at home any more and it’s part of why trust is decreasing. It also puts children at risk.
@Weka so your position is that the parent should diagnose measles and treat the child at home ?
From my reading of your post it appears you suggest that there is some kind of conspiracy amongst the government and health professionals over these kind of infectious diseases ?
“@Weka so your position is that one should diagnose measles and treat the child at home ?”
Not quite. I think that in general child health is better served where the parenting population is informed and skilled at managing health care at home. This in no way precludes medical involvement, I’m saying we should have both.
With measles, I think that parents knowing how to manage that at home contains community exposure, as opposed to parents who have no idea what to do and take their infectious child to the local practice or A and E (it works the other way too. When I’ve been seriously ill my GP has told me to stay away from the clinic, too many infectious people, and stay away from town). There are flow on effects from home care, around less stress to the child, more sense of being cared for (assuming that happens) etc, and the subtle effects on immunity and health resiliency that come from that. Again, none of this precludes medical attention, it complements it.
“From my reading of your post it appears you suggest that there is some kind of conspiracy amongst the government and health professionals over these kind of infectious diseases ?”
No, I don’t think there is a conspiracy. I think it’s just a natural consequence of the particular world view that most health authorities work from nowadays. Get everyone vaccinated, don’t bother educating the population because if they need help they can go to the doctor. That’s a huge shift from when I was a kid and parents knew now to manage many illnesses at home (and when to seek medical care).
As Molly points out, not everyone has a phone or credit on their phone to make phone calls.
And so they wouldn’t be looking on the internet either right?
Promotion of a largely unskilled home health care generation also puts the power with the medical profession and MoH (which I’m sure is what is intended), but it actually fails basic public health interests.
I’m fairly sure that you’ll find basic first aid/health care is taught at schools these days and is far more than anything you or I ever got.
“And so they wouldn’t be looking on the internet either right?”
Why not? Free public access at the local library, or a friend’s, or a friend prints it off or tells them. There are whole bodies of knowledge that get passed around verbally. People learn and share skills in many ways. Getting the the information out there in a variety of ways would make sense. But my point was mostly about how relying on people being able to phone a doctor in the middle of the night was a pretty limited form of public health support.
Thanks Molly. I’d add knowing what complications are and would look like and when one might need to see a doctor and how to do that without bringing an infected child into contact with the general population including esp vulnerable people.
It’s acutally astonishing that this kind of information isn’t being promoted, so I tend to agree with you that it’s about pusing vaccination, and it’s about keeping the power and control with the medical profession and the MoH.
“I’d add knowing what complications are and would look like and when one might need to see a doctor and how to do that without bringing an infected child into contact with the general population including esp vulnerable people.”
Yes, but once again for certain of the complications probably best done by a health practitioner or on advisement of a health practitioner.
“It’s acutally astonishing that this kind of information isn’t being promoted, so I tend to agree with you that it’s about pusing vaccination, and it’s about keeping the power and control with the medical profession and the MoH.”
This is just so far off target as to be twilight zone stuff.
“Yes, but once again for certain of the complications probably best done by a health practitioner or on advisement of a health practitioner.”
I think you are misunderstanding. I’m suggesting that at the most basic level the public should be informed about when they need to seek medical attention. I’m kind of surprised I have to be explaining this given the infectious nature of measles.
“This is just so far off target as to be twilight zone stuff.”
That doesn’t really tell me anything about why you disagree with me other than that found something weird about my comment. I don’t think there is anything nefarious about the power and control issues, but there are very clear patterns that we can talk about if you want.
I have an amicable relationship with my children’s GP, who has quite an abrasive manner so is no pushover.
When it comes to fevers, we have agreed a set of parameters that I use to determine whether to expose them to the elements and a wait in the doctors waiting room. These parameters include but are not limited to: taking regular temperatures and recording them, and monitoring any changes when treating fevers with paracetomol. Whether they are still taking fluids, and how aware they are. Most parents can tell the difference after a while between a good sleep – and one that is a concern. Fevers have often moved on within 24 hours, or recovery is apparent before that time. This agreement has worked for us, and I would have no hesitation with taking my child to medical care if I noticed something outside this agreed and practiced protocol.
In this way, other patients are not exposed to something contagious, and my children have not compounded their discomfort and lengthened their recovery by hours long trips to the doctor, and exposure to the weather and other patients in the waiting rooms.
It has been a learned experience, and one that has contributed to better at home care for some of their illnesses.
Now we can have a semantic argument about what ‘treatment’ means, but to most parents I’ve known it includes how to care for a sick child, what to do about fever, pain etc.
/facepalm.
Keeping the infected comfortable is caring for them but does nothing to treat the disease. Again, we’re at a point in you choosing definitions for words that don’t exist to try to support your argument.
It was the article itself said that there was no treatment for measles.
It could have more accurately stated that there were no drug therapies for this disease, but once contracted the following steps should be followed – insert recommendations such as those mentioned from northshoredoc, weka and myself here.
It is a conversation about providing information that informs the public good. Instead of framing every article from a vaccination ethos of “if you have contracted it, let’s find out whose fault it is”, rather than – “if you have contracted measles – these are steps and measures you can take towards a faster recovery, and more comfortable illness”.
For arguments sake, both options could be included without impact on the vaccination message.
Oh Jeez!
I’ve just watched Judith Collins dancing on stage, on Campbell live with an Elvis impersonator who looks like Cameron Slater.
This must be the comeback………vomit!
The Australian government prefers to gift things to foreign investors rather than sell them. The coal in the Galilee Basin and the infrastructure that Bjelke-Newman wanted to build and give to an Indian company are a good example.
Hi,I think all of us have probably experienced the power of music — that strange, transformative thing that gets under our skin and helps us experience this whole life thing with some kind of sanity.Listening and experiencing music has always been such a huge part of my life, and has ...
Business frustration over the stalled economy is growing, and only 34% of voters are confidentNicola Willis can deliver. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Wednesday, February 12 are:Business frustration is growing about a ...
I have now lived long enough to see a cabinet minister go both barrels on their Prime Minister and not get sacked.It used to be that the PM would have a drawer full of resignations signed by ministers on the day of their appointment, ready for such an occasion. But ...
This session will feature Simon McCallum, Senior Lecturer in Engineering and Computer Science (VUW) and recent Labour Party candidate in the Southland Electorate talking about some of the issues around AI and how this should inform Labour Party policy. Simon is an excellent speaker with a comprehensive command of AI ...
The proposed Waimate garbage incinerator is dead: The company behind a highly-controversial proposal to build a waste-to-energy plant in the Waimate District no longer has the land. [...] However, SIRRL director Paul Taylor said the sales and purchase agreement to purchase land from Murphy Farms, near Glenavy, lapsed at ...
The US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act has been a vital tool in combatting international corruption. It forbids US companies and citizens from bribing foreign public officials anywhere in the world. And its actually enforced: some of the world's biggest companies - Siemens, Hewlett Packard, and Bristol Myers Squibb - have ...
December 2024 photo - with UK Tory Boris Johnson (Source: Facebook)Those PollsFor hours, political poll results have resounded across political hallways and commentary.According to the 1News Verizon poll, 50% of the country believe we are heading in the “wrong direction”, while 39% believe we are “on the right track”.The left ...
A Tai Rāwhiti mill that ran for 30 years before it was shut down in late 2023 is set to re-open in the coming months, which will eventually see nearly 300 new jobs in the region. A new report from Massey University shows that pensioners are struggling with rising costs. ...
As support continues to fall, Luxon also now faces his biggest internal ructions within the coalition since the election, with David Seymour reacting badly to being criticised by the PM. File photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate ...
Not since 1988 when Richard Prebble openly criticised David Lange have we seen such a challenge to a Prime Minister as that of David Seymour to Christopher Luxon last night. Prebble suggested Lange had mental health issues during a TV interview and was almost immediately fired. Seymour hasn’t gone quite ...
Three weeks in, and the 24/7 news cycle is not helping anyone feel calm and informed about the second Trump presidency. One day, the US is threatening 25% trade tariffs on its friends and neighbours. The reasons offered by the White House are absurd, such as stopping fentanyl coming in ...
This video includes personal musings and conclusions of the creator climate scientist Dr. Adam Levy. It is presented to our readers as an informed perspective. Please see video description for references (if any). Wherever you look, you'll hear headlines claiming we've passed 1.5 degrees of global warming. And while 2024 saw ...
Photo by Heather M. Edwards on UnsplashHere’s the key news, commentary, reports and debate around Aotearoa’s politics and economy in the week to Feb 10 below. That’s ahead of live chats on the Substack App and The Kākā’s front page on Substack at 5pm with: on his column in The ...
Is there anyone in the world the National Party loves more than a campaign donor? Why yes, there is! They will always have the warmest hello and would you like to slip into something more comfortable for that great god of our age, the High Net Worth Individual.The words the ...
Waste and fraud certainly exist in foreign aid programs, but rightwing celebration of USAID’s dismantling shows profound ignorance of the value of soft power (as opposed to hard power) in projecting US influence and interests abroad by non-military/coercive means (think of “hearts and minds,” “hugs, not bullets,” “honey versus vinegar,” ...
Health New Zealand is proposing to cut almost half of its data and digital positions – more than 1000 of them. The PSA has called on the Privacy Commissioner to urgently investigate the cuts due to the potential for serious consequences for patients. NZNO is calling for an urgent increase ...
We may see a few more luxury cars on Queen Street, but a loosening of rules to entice rich foreigners to invest more here is unlikely to “turbocharge our economic growth”. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate ...
Let us not dance daintily around the elephant in the room. Our politicians who serve us in the present are not honest, certainly not as honest as they should be, and while the right are taking out most of the trophies for warping narratives and literally redefining “facts”, the kiwi ...
A few weeks ago I took a look at public transport ridership in 2024. In today’s post I’m going to be looking a bit deeper at bus ridership. Buses make up the vast majority of ridership in Auckland with 70 million boardings last year out of a total of 89.4 ...
Oh, you know I did itIt's over and I feel fineNothing you could say is gonna change my mindWaited and I waited the longest nightNothing like the taste of sweet declineSongwriters: Chris Shiflett / David Eric Grohl / Nate Mendel / Taylor Hawkins.Hindsight is good, eh?The clarity when the pieces ...
Photo by Towfiqu barbhuiya on UnsplashHere’s what we’re watching in the week to February 16 and beyond in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty:Monday, February 10The Kākā’s weekly wrap-up of news about politics and the economy is due at midday, followed by webinar for paying subscribers in Substack’s ...
A listing of 23 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, February 2, 2025 thru Sat, February 8, 2025. This week's roundup is again published soleley by category. We are still interested in feedback to hone the categorization, so if ...
Today, I stumbled across a Twitter Meme: the ending of The Lord of the Rings as a Chess scenario: https://x.com/mellon_heads/status/1887983845917564991 It gets across the basic gist. Aragorn and Gandalf offering up ‘material’ at the Morannon allows Frodo and Samwise to catch Sauron unawares – fair enough. But there are a ...
Last week, Kieran McAnulty called out Chris Bishop and Nicola Willis for their claims that Kāinga Ora’s costs were too high.They had claimed Kāinga Ora’s cost were 12% higher than market i.e. private devlopersBut Kāinga Ora’s Chair had already explained why last year:"We're not building to sell, so we'll be ...
Stuff’s Political Editor Luke Malpass - A Fellow at New Zealand IniativeLast week I half-joked that Stuff / The Post’s Luke Malpass1 always sounded like he was auditioning for a job at the New Zealand Initiative.Mountain Tui is a reader-supported publication. For a limited time, subscriptions are 20% off. Thanks ...
At a funeral on Friday, there were A4-sized photos covering every wall of the Dil’s reception lounge. There must have been 200 of them, telling the story in the usual way of the video reel but also, by enlargement, making it more possible to linger and step in.Our friend Nicky ...
Skeptical Science is partnering with Gigafact to produce fact briefs — bite-sized fact checks of trending claims. This fact brief was written by Sue Bin Park from the Gigafact team in collaboration with members from our team. You can submit claims you think need checking via the tipline. Is methane the ...
The Government’s idea is that the private sector and Community Housing Providers will fund, build and operate new affordable housing to address our housing crisis. Meanwhile, the Government does not know where almost half of the 1,700 children who left emergency housing actually went. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong ...
Oh, home, let me come homeHome is wherever I'm with youOh, home, let me come homeHome is wherever I'm with youSongwriters: Alexander Ebert / Jade Allyson CastrinosMorena,I’m on a tight time frame this morning. In about an hour and a half, I’ll need to pack up and hit the road ...
This is a post about the Mountain Tui substack, and small tweaks - further to the poll and request post the other day. Please don’t read if you aren’t interested in my personal matters. Thank you all.After oohing-and-aahing about how to structure the Substack model since November, including obtaining ...
This transcript of a recent conversation between the Prime Minister and his chief economic adviser has not been verified.We’ve announced we are the ‘Yes Government’. Do you like it?Yes, Prime Minister.Dreamed up by the PR team. It’s about being committed to growth. Not that the PR team know anything about ...
The other day, Australian Senator Nick McKim issued a warning in the Australian Parliement about the US’s descent into fascim.And of course it’s true, but I lament - that was true as soon as Trump won.What we see is now simply the reification of the intention, planning, and forces behind ...
Among the many other problems associated with Musk/DOGE sending a fleet of teenage and twenty-something cultists to remove, copy and appropriate federal records like social security, medicaid and other supposedly protected data is the fact that the youngsters doing the data-removal, copying and security protocol and filter code over-writing have ...
Jokerman dance to the nightingale tuneBird fly high by the light of the moonOh, oh, oh, JokermanSong by Bob Dylan.Morena folks, I hope this fine morning of the 7th of February finds you well. We're still close to Paihia, just a short drive out of town. Below is the view ...
It’s been an eventful week as always, so here’s a few things that we have found interesting. We also hope everyone had a happy and relaxing Waitangi Day! This week in Greater Auckland We’re still running on summer time, but provided two chewy posts: On Tuesday, a guest ...
Queuing on Queen St: the Government is set to announce another apparently splashy growth policy on Sunday of offering residence visas to wealthy migrants. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in our political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Friday, February 7:PM Christopher ...
The fact that Waitangi ended up being such a low-key affair may mark it out as one of the most significant Waitangi Days in recent years. A group of women draped in “Toitu Te Tiriti” banners who turned their backs on the politicians’ powhiri was about as rough as it ...
Hi,This week’s Flightless Bird episode was about “fake seizure guy” — a Melbourne man who fakes seizures in order to get members of the public to sit on him.The audio documentary (which I have included in this newsletter in case you don’t listen to Flightless Bird) built on reporting first ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Karin Kirk The 119th Congress comes with a price tag. The oil and gas industry gave about $24 million in campaign contributions to the members of the U.S. House and Senate expected to be sworn in January 3, 2025, according to a ...
Early morning, the shadows still long, but you can already feel the warmth building. Our motel was across the road from the historic homestead where Henry Williams' family lived. The evening before, we wandered around the gardens, reading the plaques and enjoying the close proximity to the history of the ...
Thanks folks for your feedback, votes and comments this week. I’ll be making the changes soon. Appreciate all your emails, comments and subscriptions too. I know your time is valuable - muchas gracias.A lot is happening both here and around the world - so I want to provide a snippets ...
Data released today by Statistics NZ shows that unemployment rose to 5.1%, with 33,000 more people out of work than last year said NZCTU Te Kauae Kaimahi Economist Craig Renney. “The latest data shows that employment fell in Aotearoa at its fastest rate since the GFC. Unemployment rose in 8 ...
The December labour market statistics have been released, showing yet another increase in unemployment. There are now 156,000 unemployed - 34,000 more than when National took office. And having thrown all these people out of work, National is doubling down on cruelty. Because being vicious will somehow magically create the ...
Boarded up homes in Kilbirnie, where work on a planned development was halted. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in our political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Wednesday, February 5 are;Housing Minister Chris Bishop yesterday announcedKāinga Ora would be stripped of ...
This week Kiwirail and Auckland Transport were celebrating the completion of the summer rail works that had the network shut or for over a month and the start of electric trains to Pukekohe. First up, here’s parts of the press release about the shutdown works. Passengers boarding trains in Auckland ...
Through its austerity measures, the coalition government has engineered a rise in unemployment in order to reduce inflation while – simultaneously – cracking down harder and harder on the people thrown out of work by its own policies. To that end, Social Development Minister Louise Upston this week added two ...
This year, we've seen a radical, white supremacist government ignoring its Tiriti obligations, refusing to consult with Māori, and even trying to legislatively abrogate te Tiriti o Waitangi. When it was criticised by the Waitangi Tribunal, the government sabotaged that body, replacing its legal and historical experts with corporate shills, ...
Poor old democracy, it really is in a sorry state. It would be easy to put all the blame on the vandals and tyrants presently trashing the White House, but this has been years in the making. It begins with Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan and the spirit of Gordon ...
The new school lunches came in this week, and they were absolutely scrumptious.I had some, and even though Connor said his tasted like “stodge” and gave him a sore tummy, I myself loved it!Look at the photos - I knew Mr Seymour wouldn’t lie when he told us last year:"It ...
The tighter sanctions are modelled on ones used in Britain, which did push people off ‘the dole’, but didn’t increase the number of workers, and which evidence has repeatedly shown don’t work. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in our political economy around housing, ...
Catching you up on the morning’s global news and a quick look at the parallels -GLOBALTariffs are backSharemarkets in the US, UK and Europe have “plunged” in response to Trump’s tariffs. And while Mexico has won a one month reprieve, Canada and China will see their respective 25% and 10% ...
This post by Nicolas Reid was originally published on Linked in. It is republished here with permission. Gondolas are often in the news, with manufacturers of ropeway systems proposing them as a modern option for mass transit systems in New Zealand. However, like every next big thing in transport, it’s hard ...
This is a re-post from The Climate BrinkBoth 2023 and 2024 were exceptionally warm years, at just below and above 1.5C relative to preindustrial in the WMO composite of surface temperature records, respectively. While we are still working to assess the full set of drivers of this warmth, it is clear that ...
Hi,I woke up feeling nervous this morning, realising that this weekend Flightless Bird is going to do it’s first ever live show. We’re heading to a sold out (!) show in Seattle to test the format out in front of an audience. If it works, we’ll do more. I want ...
From the United-For-Now States of America comes the thrilling news that a New Zealander may be at the very heart of the current coup. Punching above our weight on the world stage once more! Wait, you may be asking, what New Zealander? I speak of Peter Thiel, made street legal ...
Even Stevens: Over the 33 years between 1990 and 2023 (and allowing for the aberrant 2020 result) the average level of support enjoyed by the Left and Right blocs, at roughly 44.5 percent each, turns out to be, as near as dammit, identical.WORLDWIDE, THE PARTIES of the Left are presented ...
Back in 2023, a "prominent political figure" went on trial for historic sex offences. But we weren't allowed to know who they were or what political party they were "prominent" in, because it might affect the way we voted. At the time, I said that this was untenable; it was ...
I'm going, I'm goingWhere the water tastes like wineI'm going where the water tastes like wineWe can jump in the waterStay drunk all the timeI'm gonna leave this city, got to get awayI'm gonna leave this city, got to get awayAll this fussing and fighting, man, you know I sure ...
Waitangi Day is a time to honour Te Tiriti o Waitangi and stand together for a just and fair Aotearoa. Across the motu, communities are gathering to reflect, kōrero, and take action for a future built on equity and tino rangatiratanga. From dawn ceremonies to whānau-friendly events, there are ...
Subscribe to Mountain Tūī ! Where you too can learn about exciting things from a flying bird! Tweet.Yes - I absolutely suck at marketing. It’s a fact.But first -My question to all readers is:How should I set up the Substack model?It’s been something I’ve been meaning to ask since November ...
Here’s the key news, commentary, reports and debate around Aotearoa’s political economy on politics and in the week to Feb 3:PM Christopher Luxon began 2025’s first day of Parliament last Tuesday by carrying on where left off in 2024, letting National’s junior coalition partner set the political agenda and dragging ...
The PSA have released a survey of 4000 public service workers showing that budget cuts are taking a toll on the wellbeing of public servants and risking the delivery of essential services to New Zealanders. Economists predict that figures released this week will show continued increases in unemployment, potentially reaching ...
The Prime Minister’s speech 10 days or so ago kicked off a flurry of commentary. No one much anywhere near the mainstream (ie excluding Greens supporters) questioned the rhetoric. New Zealand has done woefully poorly on productivity for a long time and we really need better outcomes, and the sorts ...
President Trump on the day he announced tariffs against Mexico, Canada and China, unleashing a shock to supply chains globally that is expected to slow economic growth and increase inflation for most large economies. Photo: Getty ImagesLong stories short, the top six things in our political economy around housing, climate ...
Photo by Towfiqu barbhuiya on UnsplashHere’s what we’re watching in the week to February 9 and beyond in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty:Monday, February 3Politics: New Zealand Government cabinet meeting usually held early afternoon with post-cabinet news conference possible at 4 pm, although they have not been ...
Trump being Trump, it won’t come as a shock to find that he regards a strong US currency (bolstered by high tariffs on everything made by foreigners) as a sign of America’s virility, and its ability to kick sand in the face of the world. Reality is a tad more ...
A listing of 24 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, January 26, 2025 thru Sat, February 1, 2025. This week's roundup is again published soleley by category. We are still interested in feedback to hone the categorization, so if ...
What seems to be the common theme in the US, NZ, Argentina and places like Italy under their respective rightwing governments is what I think of as “the politics of cruelty.” Hate-mongering, callous indifference in social policy-making, corporate toadying, political bullying, intimidation and punching down on the most vulnerable with ...
If you are confused, check with the sunCarry a compass to help you alongYour feet are going to be on the groundYour head is there to move you aroundSo, stand in the place where you liveSongwriters: Bill Berry / Michael Mills / Michael Stipe / Peter Buck.Hot in the CityYesterday, ...
New Zealand First has today introduced a Member’s Bill which would restore decision-making power to local communities regarding the fluoridation of drinking water. The ‘Fluoridation (Referendum) Legislation Bill’ seeks to repeal the Health (Fluoridation of Drinking Water) Amendment Act 2021 that granted centralised authority to the Direct General of Health ...
New Zealand First has introduced a Member’s Bill aimed at preventing banks from refusing their services to businesses because of the current “Environmental, Social, and Governance (ESG) Framework”. “This Bill ensures fairness and prevents ESG standards from perpetuating woke ideology in the banking sector being driven by unelected, globalist, climate ...
Erica Stanford has reached peak shortsightedness if today’s announcement is anything to go by, picking apart immigration settings piece by piece to the detriment of the New Zealand economy. ...
Our originating document, theTreaty of Waitangi, was signed on February 6, 1840. An agreement between Māori and the British Crown. Initially inked by Ngā Puhi in Waitangi, further signatures were added as it travelled south. The intention was to establish a colony with the cession of sovereignty to the Crown, ...
Te Whatu Ora Chief Executive Margie Apa leaving her job four months early is another symptom of this government’s failure to deliver healthcare for New Zealanders. ...
The Green Party is calling for the Prime Minister to show leadership and be unequivocal about Aotearoa New Zealand’s opposition to a proposal by the US President to remove Palestinians from Gaza. ...
The latest unemployment figures reveal that job losses are hitting Māori and Pacific people especially hard, with Māori unemployment reaching a staggering 9.7% for the December 2024 quarter and Pasifika unemployment reaching 10.5%. ...
Waitangi 2025: Waitangi Day must be community and not politically driven - Shane Jones Our originating document, theTreaty of Waitangi, was signed on February 6, 1840. An agreement between Māori and the British Crown. Initially inked by Ngā Puhi in Waitangi, further signatures were added as it travelled south. ...
Despite being confronted every day with people in genuine need being stopped from accessing emergency housing – National still won’t commit to building more public houses. ...
The Green Party says the Government is giving up on growing the country’s public housing stock, despite overwhelming evidence that we need more affordable houses to solve the housing crisis. ...
Before any thoughts of the New Year and what lies ahead could even be contemplated, New Zealand reeled with the tragedy of Senior Sergeant Lyn Fleming losing her life. For over 38 years she had faithfully served as a front-line Police officer. Working alongside her was Senior Sergeant Adam Ramsay ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson will return to politics at Waitangi on Monday the 3rd of February where she will hold a stand up with fellow co-leader Chlöe Swarbrick. ...
Te Pāti Māori is appalled by the government's blatant mishandling of the school lunch programme. David Seymour’s ‘cost-saving’ measures have left tamariki across Aotearoa with unidentifiable meals, causing distress and outrage among parents and communities alike. “What’s the difference between providing inedible food, and providing no food at all?” Said ...
The Government is doubling down on outdated and volatile fossil fuels, showing how shortsighted and destructive their policies are for working New Zealanders. ...
Green Party MP Steve Abel this morning joined Coromandel locals in Waihi to condemn new mining plans announced by Shane Jones in the pit of the town’s Australian-owned Gold mine. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to strengthen its just-announced 2030-2035 Nationally Determined Contribution (NDC) under the Paris Agreement and address its woeful lack of commitment to climate security. ...
Today marks a historic moment for Taranaki iwi with the passing of the Te Pire Whakatupua mō Te Kāhui Tupua/Taranaki Maunga Collective Redress Bill in Parliament. "Today, we stand together as descendants of Taranaki, and our tūpuna, Taranaki Maunga, is now formally acknowledged by the law as a living tūpuna. ...
Labour is relieved to see Children’s Minister Karen Chhour has woken up to reality and reversed her government’s terrible decisions to cut funding from frontline service providers – temporarily. ...
It is the first week of David Seymour’s school lunch programme and already social media reports are circulating of revolting meals, late deliveries, and mislabelled packaging. ...
The Green Party says that with no-cause evictions returning from today, the move to allow landlords to end tenancies without reason plunges renters, and particularly families who rent, into insecurity and stress. ...
The Government’s move to increase speed limits substantially on dozens of stretches of rural and often undivided highways will result in more serious harm. ...
In her first announcement as Economic Growth Minister, Nicola Willis chose to loosen restrictions for digital nomads from other countries, rather than focus on everyday Kiwis. ...
The Government’s commitment to get New Zealand’s roads back on track is delivering strong results, with around 98 per cent of potholes on state highways repaired within 24 hours of identification every month since targets were introduced, Transport Minister Chris Bishop says. “Increasing productivity to help rebuild our economy is ...
The former Cadbury factory will be the site of the Inpatient Building for the new Dunedin Hospital and Health Minister Simeon Brown says actions have been taken to get the cost overruns under control. “Today I am giving the people of Dunedin certainty that we will build the new Dunedin ...
From today, Plunket in Whāngarei will be offering childhood immunisations – the first of up to 27 sites nationwide, Health Minister Simeon Brown says. The investment of $1 million into the pilot, announced in October 2024, was made possible due to the Government’s record $16.68 billion investment in health. It ...
New Zealand’s strong commitment to the rights of disabled people has continued with the response to an important United Nations report, Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston has announced. Of the 63 concluding observations of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (UNCRPD), 47 will be progressed ...
Resources Minister Shane Jones has launched New Zealand’s national Minerals Strategy and Critical Minerals List, documents that lay a strategic and enduring path for the mineral sector, with the aim of doubling exports to $3 billion by 2035. Mr Jones released the documents, which present the Coalition Government’s transformative vision ...
Firstly I want to thank OceanaGold for hosting our event today. Your operation at Waihi is impressive. I want to acknowledge local MP Scott Simpson, local government dignitaries, community stakeholders and all of you who have gathered here today. It’s a privilege to welcome you to the launch of the ...
Racing Minister, Winston Peters has announced the Government is preparing public consultation on GST policy proposals which would make the New Zealand racing industry more competitive. “The racing industry makes an important economic contribution. New Zealand thoroughbreds are in demand overseas as racehorses and for breeding. The domestic thoroughbred industry ...
Business confidence remains very high and shows the economy is on track to improve, Economic Growth Minister Nicola Willis says. “The latest ANZ Business Outlook survey, released yesterday, shows business confidence and expected own activity are ‘still both very high’.” The survey reports business confidence fell eight points to +54 ...
Enabling works have begun this week on an expanded radiology unit at Hawke’s Bay Fallen Soldiers’ Memorial Hospital which will double CT scanning capacity in Hawke’s Bay to ensure more locals can benefit from access to timely, quality healthcare, Health Minister Simeon Brown says. This investment of $29.3m in the ...
The Government has today announced New Zealand’s second international climate target under the Paris Agreement, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand will reduce emissions by 51 to 55 per cent compared to 2005 levels, by 2035. “We have worked hard to set a target that is both ambitious ...
Nine years of negotiations between the Crown and iwi of Taranaki have concluded following Te Pire Whakatupua mō Te Kāhui Tupua/the Taranaki Maunga Collective Redress Bill passing its third reading in Parliament today, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “This Bill addresses the historical grievances endured by the eight iwi ...
As schools start back for 2025, there will be a relentless focus on teaching the basics brilliantly so all Kiwi kids grow up with the knowledge, skills and competencies needed to grow the New Zealand of the future, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. “A world-leading education system is a key ...
Housing Minister Chris Bishop and Associate Agriculture Minister Mark Patterson have welcomed Kāinga Ora’s decision to re-open its tender for carpets to allow wool carpet suppliers to bid. “In 2024 Kāinga Ora issued requests for tender (RFTs) seeking bids from suppliers to carpet their properties,” Mr Bishop says. “As part ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour has today visited Otahuhu College where the new school lunch programme has served up healthy lunches to students in the first days of the school year. “As schools open in 2025, the programme will deliver nutritious meals to around 242,000 students, every school day. On ...
Minister for Children Karen Chhour has intervened in Oranga Tamariki’s review of social service provider contracts to ensure Barnardos can continue to deliver its 0800 What’s Up hotline. “When I found out about the potential impact to this service, I asked Oranga Tamariki for an explanation. Based on the information ...
A bill to make revenue collection on imported and exported goods fairer and more effective had its first reading in Parliament, Customs Minister Casey Costello said today. “The Customs (Levies and Other Matters) Amendment Bill modernises the way in which Customs can recover the costs of services that are needed ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Department of Internal Affairs [the Department] has achieved significant progress in completing applications for New Zealand citizenship. “December 2024 saw the Department complete 5,661 citizenship applications, the most for any month in 2024. This is a 54 per cent increase compared ...
Reversals to Labour’s blanket speed limit reductions begin tonight and will be in place by 1 July, says Minister of Transport Chris Bishop. “The previous government was obsessed with slowing New Zealanders down by imposing illogical and untargeted speed limit reductions on state highways and local roads. “National campaigned on ...
Finance Minister Nicola Willis has announced Budget 2025 – the Growth Budget - will be delivered on Thursday 22 May. “This year’s Budget will drive forward the Government’s plan to grow our economy to improve the incomes of New Zealanders now and in the years ahead. “Budget 2025 will build ...
For the Government, 2025 will bring a relentless focus on unleashing the growth we need to lift incomes, strengthen local businesses and create opportunity. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon today laid out the Government’s growth agenda in his Statement to Parliament. “Just over a year ago this Government was elected by ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour welcomes students back to school with a call to raise attendance from last year. “The Government encourages all students to attend school every day because there is a clear connection between being present at school and setting yourself up for a bright future,” says Mr ...
The Government is relaxing visitor visa requirements to allow tourists to work remotely while visiting New Zealand, Economic Growth Minister Nicola Willis, Immigration Minister Erica Stanford and Tourism Minister Louise Upston say. “The change is part of the Government’s plan to unlock New Zealand’s potential by shifting the country onto ...
The opening of Kāinga Ora’s development of 134 homes in Epuni, Lower Hutt will provide much-needed social housing for Hutt families, Housing Minister Chris Bishop says. “I’ve been a strong advocate for social housing on Kāinga Ora’s Epuni site ever since the old earthquake-prone housing was demolished in 2015. I ...
Trade and Investment Minister Todd McClay will travel to Australia today for meetings with Australian Trade Minister, Senator Don Farrell, and the Australia New Zealand Leadership Forum (ANZLF). Mr McClay recently hosted Minister Farrell in Rotorua for the annual Closer Economic Relations (CER) Trade Ministers’ meeting, where ANZLF presented on ...
A new monthly podiatry clinic has been launched today in Wairoa and will bring a much-needed service closer to home for the Wairoa community, Health Minister Simeon Brown says.“Health New Zealand has been successful in securing a podiatrist until the end of June this year to meet the needs of ...
The Judicial Conduct Commissioner has recommended a Judicial Conduct Panel be established to inquire into and report on the alleged conduct of acting District Court Judge Ema Aitken in an incident last November, Attorney-General Judith Collins said today. “I referred the matter of Judge Aitken’s alleged conduct during an incident ...
Students who need extra help with maths are set to benefit from a targeted acceleration programme that will give them more confidence in the classroom, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. “Last year, significant numbers of students did not meet the foundational literacy and numeracy level required to gain NCEA. To ...
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters has announced three new diplomatic appointments. “Our diplomats play an important role in ensuring New Zealand’s interests are maintained and enhanced across the world,” Mr Peters says. “It is a pleasure to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and ...
Ki te kahore he whakakitenga, ka ngaro te Iwi – without a vision, the people will perish. The Government has achieved its target to reduce the number of households in emergency housing motels by 75 per cent five years early, Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka says. The number of households ...
The opening of Palmerston North’s biggest social housing development will have a significant impact for whānau in need of safe, warm, dry housing, Associate Housing Minister Tama Potaka says. The minister visited the development today at North Street where a total of 50 two, three, and four-bedroom homes plus a ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced the new membership of the Public Advisory Committee on Disarmament and Arms Control (PACDAC), who will serve for a three-year term. “The Committee brings together wide-ranging expertise relevant to disarmament. We have made six new appointments to the Committee and reappointed two existing members ...
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That outage reminded me of Ben Rachinger’s warning the other week. Hack or something less sinister, I bet Lprent didn’t get much sleep.
Thanks for all the hard work.
Something less sinister apparently. But you are right about Lprent’s commitment to getting the Standard up and running. Awesome effort.
+1000. Was starting to worry a bit by this morning, so glad it’s all ok. Is that the longest outage?
yep thanks from me too Lynn.
Thank you Lprent – I feared a takedown. Is there another site that would post status of this one for you if you needed it?
The Daily Blog had a post up offering asylum while TS was down.
OAB
Really! Hah.
and RedBaronCV
Good idea. I didn’t know whether it was my dodgy connection, even got annoyed then paranoied.
To be perfectly accurate, the Daily Blog had a post up saying they “had offered” TS authors asylum. Which was news to me.
To be fair it is difficult for Bomber to communicate with me since he’s blocked me on Twitter. 🙄
lol blocked on twitter and offered an asylum – he’s doing a lot of blocking and besmirching – I wonder why.
Wonder not – it’s wasted energy. I still wonder why the little spats between various protagonists within our ‘broad church’ these days.
Sometimes I think I should just shout various folks a hotel room and let ’em get on with it.
When it comes down to it – each can be as bad (or good) as the other.
Unfortunately it just isn’t PC these days to just bang a couple of craniums together.
OMG
LOLZ
STFU – no YOU stfu
Time and energy is precious yes?
No doubt there’ll be many (most) thinking what the fuck are you on about Tim
Yeah good point. I should have put one up.
facebook just had that egg pat – I was going to say something then i got scared…
Luckily thestandard has a mirror site at yawnnz…
now there’s a cheery thought.
Yep. On a day that debate about NZ’s role in the FVEY alliance was roaring away, the Standard goes down.
Someone has been doing legendary work getting it back up. Thank you.
Just a pain. I need a better failover.
“Yep. On a day that debate about NZ’s role in the FVEY alliance was roaring away, the Standard goes down.”
Yeah of course, The Standard is of such a danger to the five eyes alliance/GCSB/NSA that it must have been taken down.
…more likely that it was big pharma that closed the site down due to the vaccination debate..
😆
The Standard wasn’t down: Big Pharma put something in the water supply to make everyone think it was 😉
🙂 In the water?
However, a better bet would be to release it in the air because we don’t check for small particulate matter that can enter the bloodstream.
p.s.Thanks lprent. Hope that coffee is doing its job.
OMG that might explain chem trails! 😛
hah! … I thought of saying exactly that when I wrote the comment… went looking for my vinegar bottle. *jks* (just in case)
Still – pretty bad that our good news story of air quality is based on inadequate testing… I think that’s the government having a larf.
Why putting anti-depressants in our water supply is “prefectly reasonable”
http://www.zdnet.com/article/why-putting-anti-depressants-in-our-water-supply-is-perfectly-reasonable/
They’ve already found trace amounts of (excreted) pharmaceutical drugs in the water supply, so why not.
🙄
Remember that it doesn’t even cost them an extra dollar for them to launch a DoS attack on a website.
And there have been documented cases where the security services have taken down cell phone networks, internet access, access to financial transaction systems, when it suited them to.
Yeah…”them”
Remember, in a security and surveillance state, if you don’t have secret or top secret security clearance, you are a second grade citizen. The ones with clearances are more trusted, get access to jobs, contracts and budgets that you cannot get access to, and know more about what is happening in society than you do.
Yeah and The Standard is such a threat they thought they’d take it down for 9 hours. That’ll teach ’em
and the people having holidays in Tuvalu present a danger, how?
+100…i realised i am addicted…not good…but better than some other things…btw where is philip ure…i miss his comments
Off for a two week ban. Made comment that looked like it was defamatory, without providing a backing link. Turned out he was correct, so I halved it down. Don’t have time to moderate and read all news.
I was wondering what was up thought i’d been sent to timeout with Ure.
My partner didn’t miss a trick ” have you been banned from that blog site you ‘live on’ …your actually being sociable having a drink without looking at your phone every 10 minutes, ” I said “yeah looks like it.”
She replies “I could tell when I got home, you take a day off work do all the house work including the washing…. this is a first, here give me a look I got banned off lizard club once for arguing with the mod.. nah your alright you could still read just not comment…pity.”
lol…yes i thought i had been banned too….was wracking my brains as to what I had done…more than usual
Chooky
I reckon you’d be in a minority in missing Ure’s disruptive babble. Not that I always disagreed with his points, but the; noise to signal ratio, was way too high. Usually I just found myself scrolling past that distraction, though my wheel finger sometimes started cramping up with the enormity of that task.
pu is actually quite perceptive and highly intelligent imo…i find his comments easy to read …but I am a speed reader….i dont always agree with him of course
Pasipial I agree TS is better without the babble and 2 fingers are slowly recovering from RSI (rapid scroll injury)
Chooky I think you will be in a minority. I don’t miss the incoherence or the Tourette’s like abuse (compulsive utterances of obscenities.)
Can’t say as I miss him all that much.
An obsessive, insecure mediocrity with a thoroughly undeserved ego lurking behind frequently unintelligible composition. His ability to ignore what someone else wrote and instead respond to what was written on the inside of his eyelids was always impressive, though, as was his habit of using that ability to snatch victory from the jaws of delusion.
although it does seem that the place falls apart without him 🙂
+1. I came across him many years back – he one of those ‘acquaintances’ of my brother’s and a rough justice crowd of specimens.
Although at the time I thought of him as a bit of a wanker, I’ve come to see that he’s actually a very perceptive and compassionate CONTRIBUTOR – and someone who has successfully overcome the effects of an illness. I have to admire that – it’s not that easy.
It’s a shame others don’t actually see that but its no surprise to me they don’t. But Christ! …. I wish he wouldn’t preach (thanks to TS though – I learned to get passed all that)
…I think peoples comments on pu are partially a projection…ie the comments say something about the commenter…so interesting!
hi pasipial, that minority is one tick bigger, i have missed the input from pu.
also i would like to echo comments earlier this open mike, in that i missed being able to read ts, (more than i thought i would), and thank you lprent for the work done in ressurecting the site.
+1 both for philu and lprent
+1
+ 1 although he can be irritating but no more so than many others imo
@ marty mars
His approach is to keep on and add on and stir on it then on something else. Too many, and not varied enough. Takes up space on the page, might have to put up a search ‘not pu’ to find the next new commenter.
greywarshark…you need to speed read…he is a lot more readable than many
I am sure phil will be pleased to see that his absence is so widely noted, anyway…
… whoar … or something.
I was in bed by 0300 while the linux was upgrading itself. Out of bed at 0700 to finish it off. Getting ready for work at 0805. At work with a sandwich and coffee at 0845. Reading startup emails now.
lprent
Wow – that certainly makes my own day seem less hectic (and sleep deprivation less extreme). It’s not that I don’t appreciate the time and skill you bring to the maintenance of this site, but you really ought to spread the load a bit further. Imagine if you were struck down by an autumn illness – we’d all end up like Skinny and have to interact with physical people and catch up on neglected activities in the meat-world!
“That outage reminded me of Ben Rachinger’s warning the other week.”
I was thinking about that last night too. Anyone know what happened to his spat with the DP crowd?
I think BR might be a bit of a compulsive exaggerator/bs artist/attention seeker. I started following him on twitter, all his stuff about his WO dump being the tip of an iceberg, etc., etc., came to zilch. Lots of comparing himself to Einstein and MLK though.
Thanks from me as well.
Thanks lprent. I do appreciate your hard work.
An outage? While Cooking with Brucey is on The Guyon Suzie Show?
Ham and whitebait fritters sponsored by Countdown.
i heard that interview too
my god – BF took deliberate side stepping and feigned lack of comprehension to some staggering levels
he should be utterly ashamed of his performance – purely on the basis of sounding like a complete ass who couldnt argue his way round a lamp post
Hah got you. BF is Bruce Ferguson previous something important in surveillance, (is that right?). Bletchley Park I need your Help phone number.
ahh yes – sorry. BF is indeed Bruce ferguson.
framu
The very informed don’t need as much detail as we others. But it helps so we can keep up.
its more my reflex abbreviation of names and lazy typing than anythin g else 🙂
Why is it that residential landlords are consistently some of the dimmest people around…
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/67027557/rbnz-told-to-leave-property-investors-alone
Dimmest.Greediest.AKA: “His knitting” 😈
Basically saying leave the market alone even though it is a failure of market that is leading to huge capital gains for its members. The property Investor feels persecuted and is trying to stave off oppression. They are freedom fighters all.
+1
😈
For what its worth I think these RBNZ proposals are perfectly reasonable and quite well thought through.
Most investors – as distinct from speculators – would quite likely learn to live with them. The Property Institute of New Zealand should stick to ITS knitting and butt out of fiscal policy.
Indeed…
I dont recall them being outraged at first home buyers being evicted from the market with the 20% deposit change…
Anyone heard about last night’s TV3 Northland snap poll? Winston is ahead on 35%, National’s Mark Osborne is behind at 30% and Willow-Jean Prime trails at 16%. All other candidates at 11% and 8% still undecided. Poll had a sample of 500. Looks like it’s win-win for Winston and a shock result for the Nats.
Will it put paid to the confident predictions of a National win that’s all Labour’s fault?
TAP
I just mentioned it over on lprent’s Northland post. Saw it over on TDB when TS was down. Another thing I saw was this!
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2015/03/05/kelvin-davis-asks-laila-for-donation/#sthash.t8TYbtS4.dpuf
yeah I saw that begging letter lol
winnie may have the legs but where are labour – is little up there banging around to uplift his candidate? I haven’t heard – what is happening with the labour campaign, apart from the leaflets (snif) of course, is there any littlelabour noise at all up there or is winnie just running rings around them all
Labour are asking members to raise a tonne of money for the Northland by-election campaign. The target budget is significant, for a by-election.
One of our Andersons Bay Peninsula Branch organisers said “I could lose that election for just half the money that Wellington thinks it can do it for.”
Why not look at the very active Facebook page for Willow-Jean Prime’s campaign?
https://www.facebook.com/willowprime
Seems to be a heck of a lot going on, and a lot of Labour MPs pitching in.
thank you for the link – I’m not one of her 4100ish likes and none of my friends are labour friends on fb so good to see lots of action from her labour mates supporting her
I wonder when little is getting up there – that should shoulder winnie off the news
SR
“Why not look at the very active Facebook page for Willow-Jean Prime’s campaign?”
Because it’s on facebook.
Stasibook
Inform on your friends and family for free. Let corporate moguls monetize your personal relationships.
The FVEYs thank you, as do Facebook’s shareholders.
lol and they aren’t tracking you anyway – hide out in the open – paranoia is the real enemy that destroys real relationships and community.
And Labour will still lose the election. No amount of activism, money or FB likes will change that outcome.
I was answering marty’s question about “what is happening with the labour campaign”, not commenting on their chances of winning.
The irony is that I was one of the first people at TS to say it wasn’t a winnable seat for Labour, and got roundly denounced as a defeatist sell-out for it.
Not denounced by Standardistas or anyone who can tally up September’s election results, I hope. And as you know, Labour wants to pour money into losing the Northland campaign…
See for yourself:
http://thestandard.org.nz/the-northland-by-election/
And as I argue in that post, winning the seat shouldn’t be the real point for Labour. It’s a great opportunity to get the Labour message out there.
It’s possibly taboo to say so but the fact is that National losing Northland doesn’t do a hell of a lot to damage their ability to govern. Just means they only need 2 votes from partners (i.e. only the Maori Party or both Seymour and Dunne) instead of 1. So all the excitement about Winston potentially winning is a little misdirected.
Not necessarily misdirected, Stephanie. I heard something curious last night that indicates the difficulties losing a seat causes National. In Parliament, to be passed, a proposition must have majority support. A tie is a loss.
The curious remark was that the funding for the Iraq posting was not covered in the defence forces budget for this year and would need to be paid for with a separate authorisation which would be voted on in Parliament. If that is true, then given the Maori Party and Dunne’s opposition, Key may find himself severely embarrassed when the numbers are counted. At the very least, he’ll need to do some serious sucking up to get one or the other of those parties to at least abstain.
Now, I don’t know whether that really is the case, but for anything contentious, they will need to consult in a genuine way. And for anything that might be a conscience vote, they may be in deep trouble.
Fingers crossed, anyway.
RMA ‘reforms’ aren’t looking too flash 😀
Oh, such useful news — you have just made my morning !! Thanks 😀
does this also raise the possibility that TPPA could be voted down ?
That brings up the possibility that they can’t pass a budget which means a re-election.
Almost makes me think I’d have to vote for Peters if I lived in Northland, damn.
I could bring myself to do it if I had to. His winebox work alone deserves it… when he shone some big light into the 1% and the Labour/Nats who benefitted and enabled it.
Weka and Tracey-me too.I could almost.
The Nat candidate, Osbourne is it?, on radio nz this morning presented as jaunty and synthetically positive but of little substance, still using the Crosby Textor ‘look -look’ interpolations long since discarded by his colleagues.
I take little notice of polls, especially samples of only 500 and probably with a margin of error of, oh say, 100% but a win for Winston would be cat-pigeon politics at its best.
Just hope people in the North are now motivated to vote.
Fair doos re the winbox, but my concern is the consequences of giving Peters more power at this point in time.
I think it would be his last starburst of glory weka, He could end on a high note – the next two and half years as MP for Northland. He would of course need to do all the work he is saying he would do for Northland, not just sit it out for the rest of the term. It could be his last act of service to the people before he retires, and it could be interesting.
You think he wouldn’t stand at the next election? And that he wouldn’t screw the GP/left again?
I have no idea weka. I should imagine he would assess the political landscape in 2017 and make his mind up from there, but retirement will be looking appealing by then perhaps. He could put his feet up and drink that whiskey that he likes so well.
I don’t think there is that much damage left that he can do. Whilst he has been an enemy to the Left in the past, we have a far bigger enemy in our govt, and that enemy is his enemy.
That old our “enemies enemy is our friend”, comes to mind, even if it’s not a friend you’d like to hang out with, or you’d be embarrassed to be seen with.
I’m just being practical. Who would you rather have in parliament? That kooky inexperienced Mark Osbourne being a nodding dog or Winnie, whose current flavour is anti govt, and who will weaken our govt’s ability to pass bills, if they didn’t get support from Dunne or Flavell?
He’ll stand again in 2017. I reckon he has one more full term in him. The man could do more Parliamentary work on his deathbed than half the National backbench added together.
He does have a lot of vigour and zeal for one so fond of booze n fags. Gotta hand that to him. He has always been committed to work.
As an aside, I thought the age related digs at him by the Labour team, who were sharing the same spot for the street corner meeting were unkind and unnecessary. Would have been fair enough to attack him for his policies but not his age.
Some one shouted that he needed a walking frame.
could be, but I know what Osbourne will do
Yeah, I’d do it, If I were a Northlander, I’d vote Winnie. There would a moment’s discomfort at the ballot box, a slight twinge of angst at the betrayal of values, but I’d shrug that off for the greater good.
Worth it just to see Key’s face go over all dark when the votes come in.
+1
+1
Rosie- well said.
“I could bring myself to do it if I had to. His winebox work alone deserves it….”
+100.
Me too.
I’m not sure the LP apparatus is yet conscious of how they’re perceived amongst the voting public.
The saying ‘beggars can’t be choosers’ springs to mind for me (and that’s after almost a lifetime of loyalty – until Helen’s 3rd term when I realised I, and many others were just being taken for granted). They’d chosen to just have a lay down instead of trying to roll back more of the Ruthenasia/Rogergnome era – talk about missed opportunities.
Winnie the Poo has an ego the size of that double-rear axled bus he’s getting around in a.t.m – but it seems he is probably the most realistic thing there is of getting rid of a regime/ a junta they purport to despise
I’m not sure this Bi-E and 2017 is probably make or break time for the LP. It’s just a shame that their candidate seems like a thoroughly nice person.
Being unprincipled (by say not contesting/endorsing Winnie) is probably one of the only ways of getting LP principles back – its just that I’m not convinced that’s what they ekshly want to do yet (having allowed a few to have hijacked the party this past 30 years)
Who’s your Daddy John Key!
Seriously Key put the kiss of death on his no name candidate with his idiot comment “zero chance” you would have thought after his insulting comment made during the cup of tea deal with bent Bankie ” that NZF voters were dying off ” that he would show
some respect.
The interesting aspect is 54% of Tory voters thought they should have been told of the Sabin issue prior to the election, people like to make an informed decision, no one likes being handed bullshit. The 19% either undecided or choosing an independent candidate shows a further rebellion. There is also a lot of speculation that John Carters ‘patsy’ candidate was right in the thick of the alleged cover up. He was an executive member of the Northland (Sabin’s) committee. He has denied any knowledge, something Duncan Garner has labeled bullshit lies.
i must admit I am surprised at how poor the Nat candidate is. Strange choice.
Not only is he lacking in charisma, he is treasurer of the LEC and lives in the same area as Sabin yet says he knew nothing about the investigation into Sabin until it hit the media?
Meanwhile Winston is driving a blue bus around Northland doing old style campaigning that is obviously designed to appeal to National Party voters. I didn’t think Winston could win, but having now seen the way he is campaigning against a totally inadequate opponent perhaps he can do it, particularly if more info about Sabin comes out before the election.
+1 Karen.
A question. Whats the likelihood of more info coming out about Sabin before the by election?
People are being far too reserved, it is going to come out on the campaign trail.
Bring it on then!
Meanwhile Winston is driving a blue bus around Northland doing old style campaigning…
lols. He doesn’t miss a trick.
As I said the other day, all Labour and other party voters need to be voting for Winston. He’s got a chance of kicking National out of Northland whereas Labour hasn’t got snowball’s chance in a furnace.
Yep. The weird thing is that there was never really a winning scenario for Labour in any event, and plenty of possible losing scenarios, if you accept that Labour was not going to overturn the 5000+ vote lead that National had after September’s election even when LAB and GR votes are added together.
Winston winning is a big loss of face for Labour. Winston coming in second to National with Labour third, is a big loss of face for Labour. Winston pulling even with LAB as 2nd equal with National winning, is a big loss of face for Labour.
Labour coming in second to National with Winnie third, meh that would be simply meeting expectations – not a win for Labour.
Poor strategising in the red camp.
A day of shame for New Zealand, and a sad day for NZ workers, when this Government has further cut your employment rights:
http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/267903/flexible-working-hours-law-comes-in-today
which is odd when Michael Woodhouse doesn’t think he can legislate employer behaviour, while legislating for employer behaviour toward workers.
Yep thats right. Today is the day we say goodbye to good faith bargaining and say goodbye to the right to a tea break.
It is indeed shameful and sad. So much hard work getting work rights into law has just gone to waste, and those rights have vanished so easily under the Key Govt.
India: Paralysis cases soar after oral polio vaccine introduced
A new report by two Delhi pediatricians suggests that the sharp rise in childhood paralysis in India is due to the increased usage of the oral polio vaccine, a drug that was banned in the U.S. over a decade ago
Drug companies and regulators have long known about the harmful effects of the oral polio vaccine that includes the live virus. In 1976, vaccine inventor Jonas Salk admitted to the United States Congress that the live polio vaccine was the “principal if not sole cause” of all reported polio cases in the U.S. since 1961, according to Salem News.
Someone did some science and you believe them on this occasion.
Slow clap.
Yours is an odd response. The link shows The Murphy (and myself) as having some scientific basis for advising caution against calls for compulsory vaccination.
As I have been consistently saying – you cannot treat all vaccinations as being equally worthwhile under all circumstances and contexts. To do so would be “anti-science” and ignore a whole lot of knowledge and experience we have gathered over decades on vaccination.
You should recognise that instead of red herring The Murphey’s comment.
Yours is an even more odd response which ignores the fact that we use IPV in NZ.
I accept that the risk doesn’t apply to the particular vaccine that we use in NZ. Indeed, we should be judging each specific vaccine on its particular merits, benefits and risks.
But an estimated 47,500 cases of vaccination related deadly paralysis in a poor country like India gives one a bit of pause.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19712176
” This study is an overview of non-polio enterovirus (NPEV) circulating in North India studied from the perspective of poliomyelitis eradication. Wild polio cases declined because of intensive oral polio vaccine immunization. As we approach global eradication of poliovirus (PV), NPEV causing acute flaccid paralysis (AFP) are equal cause of concern.
A total of 46 653 AFP samples (World Health Organization) and apparently 1000 healthy contacts living in the same geographical area were studied (2004-2007). Serological identification of NPEV was done using RIVM-specific pools (The Netherlands). Untyped (UT)-NPEVs were sequenced directly from reverse transcription-polymerase chain reaction using pan-enterovirus (Pan-EV) primer (CDC, Atlanta, GA) targeting highly conserved 5’un-translated regions of the enterovirus.
RESULTS:
In this study, 12 513 NPEVs were isolated from the collected stool samples. Seroneutralization had identified 67% of NPEV isolates, whereas 32.6% remained as UT- NPEV. Of the typed NPEVs, Coxsackie-B accounted for 32.3%; followed by echoviruses-11, 12, 13, 7 between 8 and 28%. In sequencing few UT-NPEVs, some were identified also as echovirus-30, 11 and 18 which were probably present in mixtures as they remained UT-NPEV in ENT. Newly classified human enterovirus virus-86 (HEV) (EU079026), HEV-97(EU071767) and HEV-B isolate (EU071768) were isolated in AFP samples.
CONCLUSIONS:
This study provided definitive information about circulation, prevalence and new emerging NPEV in the polio-endemic region of India, hence they should be considered in AFP surveillance. This would help in adopting and planning new strategies in post-PV eradication era in the country. This is the right time to prepare for the future tasks while we head towards a polio-free region.
+100 CR and The Murphey
Can’t you figure it out CR? Here’s a little clue:
Science is in a state of human negotiated and perpetual change…
Until a newspaper reports that “scientists say” something The Murphey believes. Then it’s gospel, and worthy of copy-pasting with zero original content.
In short, a waste of everyone’s oxygen.
Oh and here I was thinking that science was all ready to pronounce absolutes like compulsory vaccination, and that people opposed to that stance were “science deniers”. I stand corrected.
You believe your own strawman. Why doesn’t that surprise me?
And then late in the day you accepted that voluntary vaccination was actually shown by the evidence to be a GOOD THING.
🙄
You want to play twist my words again, do you?
That was right about the time you said that goat shit makes a good homeopathic remedy that scientists can learn something from, and then went on to praise Clare Curran’s performance.
I think I represented your comment quite fairly:
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04032015/#comment-979572
Happy to be corrected though.
That was when I “accepted” that was it?
Or perhaps I never advocated for vaccines to be compulsory in the first place, and in your slack-brained inattention you were clutching at straws, because my comments were aimed primarily at feeble attempts to misrepresent research instead, and you couldn’t rebut them.
Or perhaps my name is Draco The Bastard.
There are 2 types of polio vaccine used in the world today.
New Zealand and most other developed countries use the inactivated polio vaccine (IPV). This contains dead (inactivated) polio virus – so it can’t cause illness. The vaccine is provided as an injection, usually with other childhood immunisations.
In the past, New Zealand used the oral polio vaccine. Many developing countries still use this vaccine. It contains a live but weakened form of the virus. It is easier to store, transport and administer than the inactivated polio vaccine, and provides longer-lasting immunity. However, the weakened virus can cause polio in about 1 in 750,000 cases. Because of this risk, New Zealand switched to using the inactivated vaccine in 2002.
The World Health Organization plans to withdraw the oral polio vaccine worldwide when polio nears global elimination.
http://www.health.govt.nz/your-health/conditions-and-treatments/diseases-and-illnesses/polio-poliomyelitis
I remember a case where a mother caught polio from changing a nappy after her child had been vaccinated. She thought she had been immunised, but can’t find any reference to it now.
I believe this is part of the reason for the change in 2002.
This NZ Herald article refers to a father – but IIRC I remember the story being about a female and having a photo accompanying it:
..and some people will be old enough to remember the days before polio vaccine was available and the mayhem this virus caused around the world.
I am. I was born in Britain ion the 1950’s, and I am immunised. I had to be to leave England in the late 60’s.
So yeah I remember the kids with the Brace on their leg, hopping and stumping along . BUT they were always in the thick of the games, or mischief making,
I have a relative who contracted the disease in his childhood. In his late fifties – early sixties, he had an illness that was supposedly related. Apparently, many of the children that survived polio had a similar incident in later lives.
Perhaps you will know more?
Just asking. Do you not read the links? I was providing additional information regarding the change in NZ in 2002, not criticising the vaccine?
I noticed that too and wondered if your comment hadn’t been read properly (I didn’t read the link but understood what you meant).
Q. WHO tolerate childhood paralysis ?
Q. How many cases of polio are recorded globally every year ?
http://www.health.govt.nz/your-health/healthy-living/immunisation/vaccine-safety
Medsafe’s evaluation is performed to internationally defined standards and is based on data from clinical trials.
The gold standard for clinical trials includes three phases:
Phase 1:
Small numbers of people take the same vaccine using different methods of delivery and/or dosage. Assesses safety and immune response.
Phase 2:
Uses larger numbers of people and compares new treatments with a placebo. Continues to assess safety and immune response.
Phase 3:
Large, randomised trial(s) to test the effect of a new vaccine against a control group. This phase tests safety and efficacy, which is the percentage of people that the vaccine protects from catching the disease.
Provide examples of where and how The Gold Standard has been proven to be followed in development of recent vaccinations as they relate to those used on children and pregnant women
A. I don’t feed trolls
but you can still dish it out like one when the mask slips eh doc
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-28022015/#comment-977311
Absolutely. Phil is a douche and i treated him as such.
douche – “A douche /ˈduːʃ/ is a device used to introduce a stream of water into the body for medical or hygienic reasons, or the stream of water itself.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douche
lol – yes he douches you alright
The Murphey – your line of reasoning is bloody sharp.
The truth of course is that vaccinations tend to be tested using much easier to measure intermediate indicators (like antibody titres), not real life clinical end points.
But with too many drugs nowadays the real trial is done en masse on real patients post mass marketing.
One reason never to use a recently introduced drug, if at all possible.
🙄
My personal standard is to not touch any drug which has not been on the market for 10 years or more. Usually leaves plenty of choices though if you need treatment. A rather significant proportion of drugs are pulled off the market within the first 10 years of mass marketing – or get “black box” warnings added, etc.
I repeat 🙄
CR +100…”The Murphey – your line of reasoning is bloody sharp”…way more sharp than than some other commenters here
…and note they don’t reply to his arguments or anyone else’s directly…they just roll their eyes …or go off on a tangent… or ignore the arguments altogether …and/or diss the person
….makes me think they have vested interests …and are not interested in real discourse
Is that what you think an argument is? Cutting and pasting someone else’s work, presenting it out of context, and lying about the World Health Organisation?
Paging Dr. Dunning-Kruger.
Personally, I’m just waiting for the results of the muffrey’s OIA request to MoH as to which vaccines in NZ have been given “gold standard” evaluation, and also in regards children and pregnant women.
I mean, it’s not like he’s just shallowly demanding blog commenters to do his research for him, is he? “Real discourse” would be him providing evidence for his own claims…
MOH defers to the CDC
Q. Where is the evidence of the gold standard ?
Should pregnant women be immunised?
Pregnant women can be immunised with inactive (non-live) vaccines. There is no evidence of a safety risk for the mother or her fetus. In some countries regular contact with a woman during pregnancy is used to ensure she is up to date with her tetanus and diphtheria immunisations and also reduce the risk of neonatal tetanus.
Pregnant women are at high risk for influenza and in New Zealand immunisation against this disease is not only recommended but also funded for a pregnant woman at any time during her pregnancy. There is also evidence that an influenza immunisation in the late stages of pregnancy can also provide protection against influenza in the newborn infant.
A free whooping cough booster immunisation, with a combined tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis vaccine, is free for women between 28-38 weeks of pregnancy to reduce their risk of getting the disease and passing it onto their newborn baby. When the booster immunisation is given before 36 weeks of pregnancy some protection will cross the placenta and may reduce the severity of whopping cough in babies for up to six weeks after they are born.
It is also important for pregnant women, who are at risk of be infected with hepatitis B, receive the course of hepatis B immunisations as soon as their risk is identified.
Live vaccines, e.g. measles/mumps/rubella (MMR) and chicken pox vaccines, are not intentionally administered to pregnant women. Although overseas research has not found any cases of injury to the unborn child when the MMR vaccine was inadvertently given just before or during pregnancy it is recommended that women delay becoming pregnant for one month after receiving a live vaccine.
It is recommended that close contacts of pregnant women are immune to measles and rubella. They can receive the MMR vaccine without risk to the pregnant woman or her fetus.
Q. Where is the evidence ?
🙄
Here’s what I just did:
I googled: “vaccine schedule nz”
right up the top, because I’m in NZ I guess, we got the MoH imms schedule.
This gives us brand names of individual vaccines.
Those brand names fed into another google search give us the datasheets for each vaccine, e.g. rorateq the rotovirus vaccine. CDC not required. There, now you learned something.
BTW, “no evidence” means “no evidence”, not “no testing”. E.g. the rotateq datasheet advises no doses under specific contingencies on the grounds that those contingencies weren’t tested in trials.
Oh, but McFlock, science is always changing in a permanent and wibbly wobbly way. Those search results might mean something completely different next week.
Q. Why is the Moon?
I can’t answer your Q without context of what the charstring “moon” denotes, if indeed a physical universe exists separately from the subjective universes of forms and the charstring “moon” denotes a specific object or set of objects within that subjectively objective reality. If there is no physical universe, then I believe the A. from my true reality of forms is “Purple Goat Probe”, according to the context of “moon”.
‘No evidence ‘ without providing qualitative evidence is meaningless irrespective of where the word use originates
Q. Where is evidence of gold standard in your comment or the source you quote ?
Really? You couldn’t see any evidence of clinical trials in the rotateq data sheet?
Or if you need information on rotateq in even greater detail, do you seriously need me to google “rotateq clinical trial information” for you?
Of course there’d be pre-licensure trials on pregnant women. Can’t see any reason not to do those.
It would be totes ethical, too.
That was not the question
While you’re at it have a go at answering the question above as opposed to requesting an OIA
Q. Where is the evidence the of gold standard testing used in development of vaccines given and offered to pregnant women and children
Do your own homework.
That you are unable to find evidence is a consequence of your laziness. I’m looking at a Google scholar list of pre-licensure trials right now, and I have no doubt that linking to the relevant ones would not result in you thanking me. It would result in yet another arrogant demand for me to do your homework for you.
Do your own homework.
That was for McFlock
In that case, let me chop off your legs, homework bludger.
Start with the brand name of each vaccine and the phrase “pre-licensure” and enter it into Google scholar. Alternatively, check the WHO factsheet for each vaccine in the part where citations are listed.
Now your laziness has an even smaller excuse.
The question is not about whether there are trials or not. The issue is how many of those pre-licensure trials meet the gold standard?
And the response is “do your own homework, homework bludger”.
Hey OAB, compulsory vaccination is a bad idea on several levels. Glad we arrived at common ground, at last.
I wonder if any of those pre-licensure trials is going to reduce the absolute rate of death for any of the participants by as much as 1 in 1,000. I’m guessing probably not.
Your confidence gets stronger with every dilution.
Actually CR, when the “gold standard” consists of three-phase trials processes, then the existence of such trials requires the existence of the gold standard.
And quite frankly, if muffrey is incapable of googling “rotateq clinical trial information” themselves (let alone actually doing an OIA to the people who used the phrase “gold standard” anyway), then muffrey is an idiot.
Because when I used that exact simple google phrase, in the first few docs there was the report submitted to the fda for approval. In paragraph 2 of the executive summary it even has the sentence “The Biologics Licensing Application (BLA) contains three phase 3 trials: study 006, the rotavirus efficacy and safety trial (REST), study 007 the end-expiry dose trial and study 009 the lot-consistency trial.”
So yeah, the testing went through phase three trials. All anyone has to do is do that search with the name of the vaccine they’re interested in, rather than demanding we do their fucking research for them less we then be accused of not being interested in rational discourse.
Not just an idiot. A lazy homework-bludging idiot.
I do love you materialists, you’re all so new fangled in your intrinsic belief in the power of matter.
A mortality rate of about 1.6 per 100,000 for newborns, and a hospitalisation rate of 25 to 30 per thousand.
Yes, basically all FDA approved drugs go through phase III trials. Including the ones pulled post marketing for being unsafe.
The power of matter can only be invoked by shaking. Not stirring.
Yes, Murphey’s inability to find evidence for the existence of such trials says more about his inability to use the internet than it does about whether such trials exist.
But of course the trials are good for filtering out ineffective and harmful treatments, even if not perfect. Which is why modern medecine is both safer and more effective than all forms of quackery.
Q. Why would you choose that particular oral vaccine ?
edit:
why did I choose rotateq? Because it was the the first trade name I saw from the first google search I did that you should have done before wasting everyone’s time.
You can follow that process yourself for any other vaccination you want to jackoff about. Teach a pretentious idiot to fish, and all that.
/edit
Q. Why would you choose and oral vaccine ?
A1. because sometimes it’s nicer than fucking the vaccine
A2. because it’s better for the midochlorian balance
A3. because otherwise you walk funny
A4. because you obviously can’t use google.
So start again this time using intramuscular examples
With evidence of independence in the standards utilised
But I already showed you howyou can do it yourself.
Indeed, the process was so simple that if I did not think that you were a complete idiot, I would have been insulted by your demands that everyone else do your thinking for you.
So rather than shifting the goalpoasts, how about you demonstrate that you’ve at least learned how to confirm the existence of phase 3 trials for a vaccine of your choice? You can do it! Two or three simple google searches. Heck, pick an intramuscular vaccine for all I care. You remember how? google for the nz vaccine schedue, that list will gove you the brand names. Then google the brand name with something like “trials information” or whatever, and you can get the submission for fda approval off the fda website. It’s so simple that even you can manage it.
The position I have expressed previously has never change nor will it
I am not for compulsory vaccination of any kind
There is no requirement for me prove corruption and fraud inside the corporate controlled industry processes and practice which many here conflate and confuse as being ‘the science’
That corruption fraud nepotism cronyism lobbying and profiteering exists is not debatable only the degree of damage and loss caused to human life and well being is
The onus is on those of you who need to believe ‘the science’ exists in a vacuum outside of the fraudulent and corrupt practices of the pharmaceutical and vaccine industry as it relates to this discussion
the degree of damage and loss caused to human life and well being
Can be seen every time herd immunity drops below acceptable levels.
You wanted evidence that the “gold standard” clinical evaluation. The description of that evaluation that you, yourself, provided is shown to exist by the few seconds of googling I did for a random vaccine.
I showed you how to find that evidence for any specific vaccine you care to name.
Do you thank me for my patience? No. You shift the goalposts.
The lesson here is that your question about “gold standard” evaluation was irrelevant to your objection, and that you probably didn’t understand its meaning anyway.
If you want to allege fraud about a particular vaccine, feel free. At the moment the only vaccine-related fraud I’m aware of was some fraudulent reseach into one vaccine by a doctor with undisclosed financial conflicts of interest, but they caught the bastard and retracted the papers when no other study could repeat his results..
Continuing to cite Wakefield and calling me lazy
hypocrisy |hiˈpäkrisē|
noun ( pl. hypocrisies )
the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one’s own behavior does not conform; pretense
hypocrite |ˈhipəˌkrit|
noun
a person who indulges in hypocrisy.
Ex-cep-tion-al: Being an Exception
Is that an acknowledgement that the demand you made for evidence of “gold standard” evaluation of vaccines, a demand I met and showed you how to replicate, a demand that we’ve all wasted a solid couple of dozen comments on, was completely irrelevant to the point you were trying to make?
Is that an acknowledgement that the demand you made for evidence of “gold standard” evaluation of vaccines, a demand I met and showed you how to replicate, a demand that we’ve all wasted a solid couple of dozen comments on, was completely irrelevant to the point you were trying to make?
No
There are no requirements prior to FDA approval and licensing that a vaccine must undergo independent study by researchers that have no financial interests and or industry ties in order to validate a vaccine maker’s claims
OAB managed to comprehend that comment
Q. Can you ?
Your demand for information re:the “gold standard” is below.
Nowhere does it mention your requirement for whether the research involved “researchers that have no financial interests and or industry ties”. That was not even mentioned in the longer description of “gold standard” clinical evaluation.
So your demand for information was irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.
Let’s make one thing absolutely clear: McFlock is walking all over Muffrey, who has utterly and completely failed to make a single valid or valuable observation since first stinking up the place.
Nothing but lazy worthless demands for plagiarised homework.
Goodness gracious
Nowhere does it mention your requirement for whether the research involved “researchers that have no financial interests and or industry ties”.
Given the comments and links I have posted the implication should be self evident
That you can only see one angle at a time has been self evident to me a long time
That was not even mentioned in the longer description of “gold standard” clinical evaluation.
Q. Why would it be ?
So your demand for information was irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.
That you only see one angle at a time does not make my point irrelevant
The causality between ‘the gold standard’ and failure in regulatory process and practice by the FDA should be self evident to even the dimmest of light bulbs
Did I mention boring?
desperate |ˈdespərit|
adjective
feeling, showing, or involving a hopeless sense that a situation is so bad as to be impossible to deal with
Let’s make one thing absolutely clear: McFlock is walking all over Muffrey, who has utterly and completely failed to make a single valid or valuable observation since first stinking up the place
Q. What is it with you all trying so damn hard ?
Q. Are you channeling DTB ?
Q. On the abortion issue – are you pro choice ?
Flatulent, too.
So now it suits you to be able to see things from different angles, and yet only a few weeks ago you insisted taking comments purely on their literal meaning because you had no “context” for any other meaning. 🙄
Let me be completely clear: your enquiry was not couched in terms of anything relevant to wider issues of scientific corruption. It was purely a demand for proof of a specific narrow fact. If the answer that satisfies your request does not satisfy your concerns, then you failed to express your concerns accurately. This is not my problem.
If you are looking for disclosures of conflicts of interest by medical researchers, perhaps you should use the resources I gave you as starting points for further google queries. When you find the published clinical trials, you’ll find any conflict declarations.
Go on, surely you’re capable of it. At a purely random guess, after less than 5 minutes of googling you’ll find something like “T.V. declares advisory board membership, consultation fees, and honoraria from Sanofi Pasteur MSD and advisory group memberships and lecture fees from Merck, GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals, Novartis, and MedImmune; A.K. declares no conflict of interest; R.B. declares advisory board membership at Novartis, Pfizer, GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals, Baxter Biosciences, and Alexion Pharmaceuticals; and N.K., M.B., S.T., and A.F. declare that they work for Sanofi Pasteur MSD, the company that commercializes the pentavalent rotavirus vaccine.
This study was sponsored by Sanofi Pasteur MSD.
The trial is registered on ClinicalTrials.gov: National Clinical Trials Identifier (NCT ID) NCT00443846.”
It really is incredibly easy to find.
to me the vaccination of pregnant women to provide supposed immunity for things like measles in their unborn children and babies , is quite shocking and dangerous ….whatever happened to natural immunity and passing this on to the baby?
it reminds me of the Catholic Church males wanting to take over the lives of women and children….say no more!
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/22/anti-vaccine-mothers-explain-measles-backlash
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/01/03/flu-shot-increase-flu.aspx
…and didnt Nazi doctors experiment on women and children without the consent of women and children ?
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/11/14/Expert-Pediatrician-Exposes-Vaccine-Myths.aspx
🙄
http://americanloons.blogspot.co.nz/2014/04/1010-larry-palevsky.html
Yes, the whooping cough vaccine take up among pregnant women was low, if I recall rightly below 20%.
I think most women sense a vaccine at that time is a bad idea, otherwise rates would be almost 100% as it’s when you focus on doing everything correctly.
But the idea women might feel and know something that medical science does not will of course be ridiculed by the usual braying idiots.
Re the Church, and what was until recently an overtly controlling and often abusive medical profession, we forget how far things have come, which is why growing threats of compulsion or prosecution over vaccine compliance are concerning.
Personally I don’t think we will go there. Other currents in health are pushing things further in a more positive patient-centred direction.
Turn off your feelings
Don’t listen to your intuition
Don’t listen to your body
Just listen to assumed authority
Don’t listen to any evidence. The ramblings of faith healers are to be taken as correct.
”Faith healers” is your construct, nothing more, and has nothing to do with my comment.
A world of difference exists between your fantasy faith healers and the mothers who make a large proportion of the health care decisions in the world. Thankfully most no longer see doctors as infallible.
But that’s just it KJT, I do want “evidence”. I want evidence that a given treatment is going to make a big positive difference to me in the environment that I am in now, in the life that I lead, for my current age and health circumstances. Not in Bangladesh, not in the NZ of half a century ago, not for an intravenous drug user with a falling over immune system, not for some theoretical outbreak scenario, but for me right here and right now.
And sorry mate, as far as I can see for most of the vaccinations out there in 2015, they will improve my likely life expectancy by literally about zero. Not even an extra week out of 80 years. I’d do a thousand times better simply taking an extra walk every day and getting some vitamin D.
So given that, please excuse me if I don’t rush out and pump my body full of hyper reactive immune stimulants because certain people have come to a faith that it is somehow the rational thing to do.
When did I say anything about mothers, or the infallibility of Doctors.
It is because individuals are fallible, and inclined to be subjective that we have the “scientific method” of objective evidence.
Observations of individuals have value as empirical evidence, but some things need huge sample sizes to find out the reality.
There is no such thing as “anecdotal evidence”.
The failures are when someone ignores science, for dogma. It is even worse when it is someone who is supposedly intelligent and well educated enough to know better.
To go back deliberately from centuries of the enlightenment to dark age superstition, as so many seem to want to do these days.
It’s not all about you, though, is it.
It’s also about the baby too young to be vaccinated, or the child with allergies, or the immune-compromised person on chemo. All of whom you deliberately endanger because of your choice to not vaccinate. It’s about the drain on the health system in an outbreak, both treating people who refused to vaccinate (and of course dealing with the rush of selfish fools whose personal danger threshold has finally been met). And how that drain affects the quality and availability of care for patients who are not the paranoid or self-absorbed authors of their own misfortune.
Even if your personal threat assessment were correct and didn’t rely on almost everyone else being less selfish than you, you’re nothing more than a freeloader or a scab. It’s alright for you, stuff everyone else, mate.
@KJT, I think we were talking past each other because I had thought your first response had been to me, but it was for CV.
I agree there is no such thing as anecdotal evidence, as such, but place a lot of store on lived experience, stories, and case studies. And you acknowledge the place of empirical evidence except when large amounts of data are involved. That is a point often missed by people who love the nonsensical term ‘anecdata’ without giving any context.
Planning health service design, particularly in countries like NZ with far flung communities, clinical guidelines for health services (particularly sensitive ones), and managing multiple conditions are examples of areas in which a cookie cutter aggregate approach often doesn’t work.
I also think reported experience acts as early warning of problems with medicines, devices, and treatments. This is often dismissed by people in positions of power, a problem that’s not even acknowledged yet, let alone addressed.
There is also too little acknowledgement of the need to research areas in which trade-offs appear to have been unwittingly made, such as the rise of obesity and allergies being linked with the overuse of antibiotics.
It’s little wonder part of the public feels a bit disenchanted, and probably accounts for the seeming paradox that some of them are ”educated enough to know better”.
As I said, I am all for evidence. I want the empirical data. I am not dissing evidence. Objective, empirical evidence is crucial, I agree.
McFlock says that “it’s not about me”. Fair enough then. Let’s look wider. What is the life expectancy of a NZ baby who gets all his vaxx’s versus a NZ baby who gets none?
Is their life expectancy even a month different?
Death not the only endpoint you say? OK how about in terms of QALYs then? Where’s the much vaunted “evidence” there on how a NZ baby who gets all the vaxx’s does so much better than one who doesn’t?
QALYs too difficult? OK how about hospital stay days. How many fewer hospital stay days does a full vaxx’d child have in their first 18 years compared to a child who is not vaxx’d at all? Is there any measurable difference due to the vaccinations?
Still too difficult? How about time off work. A fully vaccinated adult – how many fewer days do they take off work a year on average than a totally unvaccinated adult. Is the number even a single day of sick leave?
Surely you have empirical evidence for these meaningful end points, right? Some of it right? Any of it?
Stop getting preachy and moralistic and show me the empirical evidence of actual clinical outcomes and end points benefit as per the above. For any individual NZ vaccination or group of vaccinations that you care to reference.
By the way, my position is not about “stuffing everyone else.” They are welcome to get all the injections into their body that they want and that they consent to.
I am not being dogmatic about this. If a situation arose with sufficient cause – I too would certainly get vaccinated; and have before in the past.
CR, are you saying that you haven’t looked at the evidence before starting your campaign? I’m impressed by your evidence-based approach /sarc
HPV. For a start.
Lord save me from anti-vaxxers who claim to have been persuaded by evidence yet seem incapable of googling it themselves.
Unless they can’t. In which case they can only rely on herd immunity, the herd immunity that you choose to weaken. But in the case of an outbreak, you might be able to run and get the jab in time. They can’t. So yeah, you are stuffing them because of your own freeloading.
How interesting, the study admits that prevention of genital wart is the main QALY benefit of that vaccination, not the prevention of cancer. That’s not how that vaccination was sold to parents, and not how it continues to be sold to parents.
I’d be interested in what that actual break down is.
I’m also impressed that getting the vaccination can add 266 QALYs to someone’s lifespan. That’s darn impressive.
Freeloading? You’re making a big mistake as to who is taking our freedoms for granted, sir.
I’m healthier in general without vaccinations, so the dude without a spleen will do just fine around me, thanks. Although using your rationale, I hope his weakened immune system doesn’t spread stuff around. Perhaps you should propose that they live in oxygen tents kept well away from the rest of society.
I’m also impressed that getting the vaccination can add 266 QALYs to someone’s lifespan. That’s darn impressive.
Ah. I understand now. You try to make evidence-based decisions, but you’re illiterate as well as selfish. Hopefully nobody believes you’re a doctor, eh.
You have evidence for that, eh? Why didn’t you cite that, rather than having me do your homework for you?
You might want to get vaccinated, just to be safe…
Edit: yes, freeloading. Your freedom is just like a scab working during a strike, or a non-union member getting the same deal as the collective earned by union bargaining.
So explain it to me – if a school girl takes that jab, she doesn’t get 266 QALYs added to her life?
Who does, then?
edit:
So you see yourself as the union boss whipping workers into line?
Damn, you’ve exposed the real scientificism fraud! All the doctors go into a secret chapel and sacrifice the qalys to the CEOs of Big Pharma, but don’t tell anyone.
🙄
I’m not a union “boss” (you’re really going full tory, now, eh). But you remind me a bit about an ACT on campus guy I encountered back in the 1990s who was proud of his claim that Richard Prebble’s “I’ve Been Thinking” was the only book he’d ever read cover to cover. I was having difficulty figuring out whether he really was that stupid, or he was only moderately delusional while craftily feigning what he thought was moderate idiocy. Same deal with you.
So if those additional 266 QALYs mentioned in the computer simulation/modelling projection report you linked to don’t all go to a single school girl getting the vaccination, does it then mean that the QALYs are shared amongst a larger group of school girls getting the vaccination?
lol
You’re the dude who brought up QALYs. Surely you weren’t just repeating magic words you didn’t understand.
Keep going, this is fun.
So how many school girls would you say that 266 QALY figure is shared between? 40,000? 50,000?
Don’t ask me how to use the criteria you demanded I supply. You claim to look at evidence. So follow the evidence.
Newer vaccines are not just made available and put on the NZ vaccination schedule but go through a fairly stringent process of consideration by the likes of PHARMAC.
e.g.
https://www.pharmac.health.nz/assets/ptac-minutes-2013-08.pdf
I’m beginning to find it concerning that someone who is registered with the NZ chiropractic board continues to provide opinions and advice well outside his mandated scope of practice.
But he was just about to show us how the Lords of Sciencism decide who “gets” the the 266 QALYs…
I’m providing a critical point of view highlighting many historical problems with vaccines and supporting the case for the status quo – no compulsory vaccination. Why do you see that as a problem? Do you think that the public discussion would be better left to a very small section of society from within the medical establishment?
BTW I’ve openly publicised very similar points around Dunedin, in the local papers and made them to people at Otago medical school. So I stand by my perspectives.
Yay for the debate! Teach the controversy! The science isn’t settled, you know 🙄
McFlock – the computer modelling report you linked to shows that the benefit to 40,000 or 50,000 school girls being vaccinated against HPV every year is 266 QALYs, yes?
I mean, you kindly found and linked to the report yourself.
Is there now some difficulty with these numbers which means that you don’t wish to acknowledge what the report says?
lol, nope.
You made up the 40k/50k numbers.
Try again.
@CV
“I’m providing a critical point of view highlighting many historical problems with vaccines and supporting the case for the status quo – no compulsory vaccination. Why do you see that as a problem? Do you think that the public discussion would be better left to a very small section of society from within the medical establishment?
BTW I’ve openly publicised very similar points around Dunedin, in the local papers and made them to people at Otago medical school. So I stand by my perspectives.”
If all you are doing is arguing for the status quo – no compulsory vaccination i believe you are wasting your time as the persons you are arguing with are also for non compulsion.
In reality what you are doing is spreading thinly veiled anti vaccination propaganda this is what you have done numerous times on this website over the last couple of years. Once again I would point you towards your own bodies code on the scope of chiropractic practice and not make claims to have any special knowledge in the area of immunisation over and above those who are specifically qualified in that area.
Certainly some of the commentary you have provided to papers is misinformed drivel
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/meningococcal/news/article.cfm?c_id=256&objectid=3580696
And you appearances on other blogs is …shall we say ….. interesting
http://sciblogs.co.nz/code-for-life/2013/10/31/poking-needles-in-childs-tongue-unlikely-to-bring-back-missing-dna/
https://evidencebasedthought.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/nz-chiropractors-vs-nz-medical-journal/
OK you’d like firmer numbers McFlock? Fair enough.
Est 28,500 girls born in NZ last year, so McFlock (out of 57,242 live births), the numbers are in the right ball park.
So 28,500 girls (approx) have to be vaccinated to gain 266 QALYs.
Oh my, that’s an advantage of roughly 0.0093 QALYs per girl vacinated. Or just 3.4 quality adjusted life days advantage on average for a vaccinated person compared to a non-vaccinated person, over a typical 80 year lifespan.
Do you really think that people should be kept in the dark or that only a narrow section of society should have a valid say.
People should know that their kids cannot be excluded from enrolling at school because they have not been vaccinated, they should know that a third of medical doctors refuse to take up the flu jab even though it is offered to them for free, they should know that as in the case of the MMR vaccination in the UK in 1992 and more recently the MeNZB vaccination in NZ important facts known to researchers and decision makers about those vaccinations were not communicated to parents in a timely way.
You may not think that people should know these things, that these facts are inconvenient to acknowledge, or you may think that they somehow comprise “special knowledge” that people like myself should be sanctioned for referring to, or you believe that “informed consent” doesn’t require a full discussion from all sides, but of course, I disagree.
No, I pretty much stick the facts, but I will sometimes use values and priorities which may not be yours or may not be the conventional medical establishment’s, to interpret them differently.
est? Lovely. You’re still making it up.
There is everything in the document that will lead you to the actual numbers used. This is how sciencing works. You can go and check their figures.
Once you supply the actual denominator used in the document I referenced, I will then tell you why you fucked up with your “Oh my, that’s an advantage of roughly 0.0093 QALYs per girl vacinated” idiocy.
I didn’t factor in the vaccination penetration rate, right?
Doesn’t really matter though, I was only after an answer which was in the correct order of magnitude, and I have it now: on average, a few days of benefit over a typical lifespan, and mostly from a reduction in genital warts not from a reduction in cancer.
No, CR, you’re still adding your own data to the published document. You don’t need to. Use their data.
However, given that you’re obviously illiterate and can’t review or repeat the analyses you’re going off 1/4-cocked about, and you obviously don’t care what the actual evidence is, I will describe your abuse of the QALY abstraction.
You’re applying a population average to individuals and assuming that it is their individual net benefit. You wouldn’t do that with a change in the average real wage, would you? Maybe we should just say that it’s 3 or 4 randomly-chosen 12y.o. girls dropping dead every year in an unvaccinated cohort, saved by 100% vaccination. By your math, that would also equal 266 QALYs. How many random 12y.o. girls are you happy to see drop dead every year before people should prevent it? 5? 10? 500?
For someone so critical of the scientific method, you certainly can’t practise it.
BTW, I won 500 QALYs playing poker with the Lords of Sciencism last night. I’m gonna use them to reanimate Jenner.
Oh yes, I understand the statistical abstraction.
But I think I made my point. Tens of thousands of people vaccinated every year for a (very) slight population benefit – assuming the vaccination keeps working as intended.
Just note that your example of how many people I want dropping dead out of the 266 QALYs is misguided as the majority of that benefit is due to a reduction in genital warts not cancer, and people don’t drop dead of genital warts.
In fact, parents should probably be told that the major assessed benefit of the vaccination is vs genital warts, not from preventing cancer as they have been led to believe.
But, as you illurstrated, the less benefit accrued by individuals means the greater number of individuals get a direct benefit. So “Tens of thousands” (you’ve still not managed to read the evidence rather than guessing, eh – great evidence-based opinion you have) of unvaccinated people getting warts would be much more significant than the bare minimum three days.
And, of course, cancer in later years is still the one people really would want to avoid (as well as warts), and contributes to the QALY. The population benefit is slight. The personal benefit to some individuals is extreme. The personal benefit to others is slight. But the problem is that there is no way of picking which individual will avoid cancer when she is 30, and which individual will never even be exposed to HPV in the first place. But telling everyone that there is “(very) slight” is an outright lie to the woman who will get cancer at 30, and an unverifiable truth to the woman who will never be exposed to HPV.
So, to sum up, you don’t understand the criteria you explicitly demanded, your “evidence base” involves blind guesswork rather than actually looking at the evidence, and you think that the most common complication must be the most serious thing people need to be advised of, and your idea of shedding light on the issue is to lie to people whose lives it would otherwise save well before most other people will face mortality.
You’re not just patently out of your depth, you’re dragging other people under as well, “doctor”.
McFlock, you win, I don’t have a biostatistics degree, I don’t have university library access to academic papers.
You think a 266 QALY benefit from vaccinating tens of thousands of people and spending millions of dollars is a good deal, and that is assuming the vaccination behaves as predicted over the next 20-30 years of which there is no evidence, you approve it for your own daughters so they can pick up an average of 3 quality adjusted life days then.
A lot of parents don’t and a lot of parents aren’t.
I don’t have a biostats degree either, and you can go to your local uni library if you really wanted to. So poor excuses for ignorance there.
I note that your admitted ignorance doesn’t stop you from maintaining your firm (if baseless) convictions.
BTW, I first encountered QALYs studying philosphy years ago. Ran into them in a few other places. Don’t use ’em with my current hat, though. In most disciplines I’ve encountered them they’ve been fairly self-explanatory to those people who don’t want them to push barrows. Follow the evidence, don’t lead it.
McFlock, like I said you win, you think the vaccination has major benefits go for it. Go get it yourself even, it’ll only set you back a couple of hundred bucks.
As I said, I am all for evidence. I want the empirical data. I am not dissing evidence. Objective, empirical evidence is crucial, I agree.
Says the guy stumping for homeopathy
Where did I stump for homeopathy?
If you were really interested in empirical research and data you wouldn’t be promoting homeopathy – because it has no validity whatsoever. So you can stop pretending
Oh so you agree homeopathy has no objective or empirical evidence to back it up
My bet is that homeopathy will last on long after conventional orthodox medicine winds down with the end of the fossil fuel age.
Actually, I do try to ensure I’m fully vaccinated according to MoH guidelines.
Because it’s a duty for others, as well as maybe having a direct benefit for me. My drinking and diet rest on my shoulders, but I try to ensure they don’t endanger others. But for very little effort, I can make a lifestyle choice to help protect others rather than endanger them by freeloading behind a successful immunisation program.
well good on you McFlock, you take the moral high road, let me know when you take the HPV vaccination too, apparently it’s good for men too, just a bit too expensive is the only issue now, according to officials.
I won’t be introducing those immune altering chemicals into my body though.
No one is asking how long it will last. What is being asked is whether you think homeopathy has objective or empirical evidence to back it up.
Indeed it is good for males, too, and financial restrictions to healthcare are still sadly an issue in NZ – but I don’t think I will share with you the specifics of all of my medical records. It’s not like you’d understand them anyway.
Suffice to say I do try to take all evidence-based measures to minimise my participation in the transmission of communicable disease. Unlike you, freeloader.
Conventional medicine fails a lot of people and they will go elsewhere. It’s not brain surgery.
Well let me know when you decide to put your money where your mouth, and your sense of duty is, McFlock, scientism acolyte. It’s only a couple of hundred dollars and apparently the evidence is all for it.
BTW re: your medical records eeeew thanks but no thanks. That was not my idea.
No one is asking you about where people go for treatment. What is being asked is whether you think homeopathy has objective or empirical evidence to back it up.
If homeopathy works for a person and they like what it does for them, then they should stick with it. It’s pretty simple.
No one is asking about what someone may or not believe works for them. What is being asked is whether you think homeopathy has objective or empirical evidence to back it up.
Today, I don’t give a damn.
So you can stop all this bullshit concerning caring for empirical evidence, objective, empirical evidence. Because you don’t. If you did you’d show it but you know you can’t.
Because homeopathy is 100% pure grade bullshit and you can’t show dick in objective, empirical evidence to support it so don’t pretend you give a shit about evidence.
I hope that was good for you, you were really bottling that up for a long time.
It was good, because it shows how disingenuous you were throughout this entire thread. Pretending to care about empirical evidence that everyone must show to you and prove to your satisfaction when defending their positions but having no intention of holding yourself to same regard when defending your own.
You have no intellectual authority whatsoever when it comes to any debate on the merits of science or medicine because you completely fail to live up to the rigorous demands of evidence you apply to everyone else when trying to defend your own positions.
You obfuscate, hold double standards and fail, refuse, to back up your own arguments.
So yes, it was good. You’re a charlatan and every time you open your mouth to ask others for evidence of their positions this discussion can be pointed to, to show just how little you actually care for evidence. You are in no position to ask any one to ever back up any claim they make.
Thank you, kind sir.
As I figured, your cheap goading was all about your need for a sensation of intellectual, and moralistic superiority. You don’t know me from a bar of soap and I have no intention of living up to your pretences. Fuck off.
Hey, don’t get mad at me – Cheap goading? You’re the one who is all about empirical, objective evidence. That you can’t show to support your own notions is no fault of mine.
Indeed. The tragedy is Steve Jobs syndrome, where conventional medicine would very likely save a life but the patient listens to fools like you until it’s too late.
And I do put my money where my mouth is. That’s why I go to conventional doctors who have an evidence base for their treatments.
+100
The gold standard is the quintessential fallacy which exists at the epicentre of the vaccine industry
The logical question will be seldom asked and impossible to qualify without exposing the fallacy
Strive to use the best data and methods available. Yeah, that’s definitely a mistake.
The mistake is there are no requirements prior to FDA approval and licensing that a vaccine must undergo independent study by researchers that have no financial interests and or industry ties in order to validate a vaccine maker’s claims
Yes that is a mistake
One again, you have demonstrated what everybody here already knows: politics is a problem.
What would we do without you? Not your homework, that’s for sure.
@northshoredoc,thanks for the clear explanation sans vitriol and ridicule 🙂 I think it makes for a much better discussion.
No problem Weka.
Although in truth it’s all readily available on the MoH, CDC and WHO websites… I don’t know why people rely on the likes of CV and his sock puppets rather than just going straight to the most authoritative information sites.
Because the MoH, CDC and WHO are all back by big pharma/the IMF/the Rothschilds/Lizard people
Blogs written in caps and daytime TV are far more authoritative.
“Although in truth it’s all readily available on the MoH, CDC and WHO websites… I don’t know why people rely on the likes of CV and his sock puppets rather than just going straight to the most authoritative information sites.”
Two reasons from my perspective. One is that those organisations aren’t infallible (no organisation is). Which leads to the world view/ideology issue. For those of us for whom medical mistakes are not insignificant, trust is a big issue. I tend to sit somewhere between say you and CV in terms of approach, but I definitely don’t trust information from MoH, CDC, WHO just because they say it. I want to look at it and be able to think about it and discuss it with a critical eye.
What I appreciated about your comment is that it was free of the polarisation stuff, and I just got to read some facts. There might be some discussion that comes from that eg I might take issue with your statement that the inactivated vaccine can’t cause illness. I suspect what you meant is that it can’t cause polio, but whether it can cause adverse effects otherwise and to what extent those adverse effects are an issue is a problem for discussion. However it’s unlikely we will get to talk about those things because of the polarisation (and the vitriol/ridicule).
“What I appreciated about your comment is that it was free of the polarisation stuff, and I just got to read some facts.”
” I want to look at it and be able to think about it and discuss it with a critical eye.”
Yes fair enough but you need to understand where those facts come from and the body of evidence that backs them up. Others also post things which they would suggest are “facts” but have little that backs up their position.
I agree that conversations are best without vitriol but would humbly suggest that if that’s what your after this site might not be the best option.
lolz, that’s true. But we do have some good debates here that aren’t total clusterfucks, so I’m always hopeful.
To be honest, I’m not paying much attention to the outgoing links, nor reading Murphey’s content much. Or even CV’s where it’s talking too much detail. I have my own views on vaccination, and am more interested in the ethics rather than endless arguments over the science.
As far as ethics go I don’t think things will change much in our lifetimes with vaccination, can’t see it changing from a voluntary choice…albeit heavily endorsed by the medical profession and government.
I think there might be scope for non-vaccinating parents to be prosecuted for endangerment if their kid gets the disease.
That would certainly be better than other parents taking the law into their own hands.
Oh yes come on lefties, it was only so long before you threatened a toxic mix of mob rule and taking away the rights of parents to raise children in favour of nanny state knows best.
Of course, the parents that McFlock would most likely target in court would usually be from poorer households with higher illness rates, lower rates of medical care and inability to get legal representation.
Everybody, I introduce to you our modern day “left.”
Crimes Act 1961, s. 48.
Q. Will it be a bourgeois fuckwit with too much time on their hands that puts childrens’ lives at risk with their callous doubt-merchant incompetence?
same with smoking and drinking parents eh and those who do that near children – don’t want non-parents to miss out do we. Who else can we prosecute, who else are endangering their and others children – sugar eaters, coffee drinkers yeah lets get them all /sarc in case you aren’t sure
Not really, because access to medical care is an issue often beyond control of the poor. But the remuera crowd who took jimmy to the homeopath at the slightest sniffle and refused a vaccine because of what jenny mccarthy said would definitely have some legal problems.
OAB, I thought s48 was self defense? I think there’s another one “failure to provide necessities of life”
Actually, I think the failure to provide necessities and the negligence laws do not proscribe specific acts so much as leaving it to a case-by-case basis, where the harm/negligence can be demonstrated and the act can be defended (i.e. balancing risks, act not really harmful, factors beyond parental control, etc).
For example, the bourgeois fuckwit with too much time on their hands might have access to the internet, and use it to spread their callous dogma. S.48 would be a good defence against prosecution for a denial of service attack upon them.
They might seek to walk the streets spreading their vile drivel, so s.48 would be a good defence against prosecution for nailing all their doors and windows shut.
Render them silent in any reasonable way: S.48 is there for you. Might pay to seek legal advice first 🙂
do you think a non-parent smoker should or could be prosecuted for smoking around someone elses child? Assuming the stats on passive smoking and so forth are correct. That is endangerment isn’t it.
Ok, so what are the risks of one cigarette within 5m, on the street? And the connectability of the specific harm to the smoking event?
vs a non-vaccinated child getting measles?
edit: seeing as ASH ads are already trying to head society that way, anyway
to be safe let’s prosecute both, after all it is childrens lives we are concerned about isn’t it
I like your zeal for child safety, but I fear that the practical threshholds of decisions to prosecute (such as likelihood of conviction and a prima facie case of harm or negligence) require at least a nodding acquaintance with the relative risk of each case, as well as the comparative risk of any avoiding behaviour (like the risk of violence or stress-related harm from asking an addict to put it out, or the risks of the vaccine itself).
yes relative risk can fuck us all up
Not so much if we assess the risks accurately, though.
“assess the risks accurately”
tricky that one – even if it could be done, humans still make choices based on their perception of their relative risk
And where those errors are obviously reasonable, there is no prima facie case of negligence.
“obviously reasonable”
another one that is problematic imo
easily clarified in court, then
lol yeah easy peasy
one or two cases in the gray area you are concerned about would set the threshhold.
Just as already happens.
+100
the oceans have given there all but there all is just about over…
http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2777808/coming_soon_the_big_heat.html
This Brisbane summer has been way too hot for me. If it gets worse, I think I might just come back home a bit earlier than planned. Funnily enough, I am in the 1% on income figures, but not on a wealth basis. Another 1% fleeing to Aotearoa?
Pleased TS is up and running again.
The old cynic in me suspected a deliberate take-down, considering recent revelations re NZ spying game in the south pacific. Nothing would surprise me with this corrupt Natsy mob.
Matses as a fourth official language – exclusive to and compulsory for parliament and parliamentarians.
Linguist David Fleck, at Rice University, wrote his doctoral thesis on the grammar of Matses. He says that what distinguishes Matses from other languages that require speakers to give evidence for what they are saying is that Matses has one set of verb endings for the source of the knowledge and another, separate way of conveying how true, or valid the information is, and how certain they are about it. Interestingly, there is no way of denoting that a piece of information is hearsay, myth, or history. Instead, speakers impart this kind of information as a quote, or else as being information that was inferred within the recent past.
http://nautil.us/blog/5-languages-that-could-change-the-way-you-see-the-world
Not a chance.
Gareth Hughes, assuming he makes it into the male leader’s role in the Green Party, is going to demand as the price of Green Party support to form a Government, that Klingon must become an official language in New Zealand.
That is going to be the fourth official language.
In my opinion, the Greens should concentrate on environmental issues only and make themselves appealing, both in policies and personalities, for the National supporters to want to vote for them. For that reason, Julie Anne Genter and James Shaw will be their best bet as leaders.
Why don’t the Greens just lie about what they are going to do when in “power” then do what they like once they get in.
Seems to work fine for National.
Because being too like National has worked so well for Labour?
Being centre will work for them better and will make the Greens powerful, relevant and more importantly will enable them to ACHIEVE something REALLY worthwhile, rather than as of now, more talk and less action. But hey, no problem for me. Let them do ‘whateva’ the ideas of their brains tell them. But, I do agree with my comment. Their heart is in the right place, but head, not so much, I opine.
The problem with that is that most Greens have a strong social conscience which prevents them from leaving everything but the environment to NAct. Actually, given the penetration of capitalist relations of production into so many spheres of our lives, I doubt that separating out the environment is even possible. After all, NAct don’t want to mine the Denniston Plateau because they hate kiwis and snails. They just put making their mates rich first.
Also the commodification of all aspects of workers, human life and human relationships (including those with the environment).
I consider that the same thing. I blame capitalism for everything 🙂
Ok folks – now the first Northland poll has come out – showing that indeed Winston Peters has ‘hit the ground running’ – are all so-called ‘lefties’ going to use their brains and ‘do an Epsom’?
As this John Key led National Government is SURELY the ‘main enemy’ – then why on earth would every possible person NOT vote strategically for Winston Peters, in order to take Northland off National?
In my considered opinion, Labour Party supporters should not ‘waste their vote’ on Labour’s Willow-Jean Prime.
I look forward to history being created on a number of fronts with this Northland by-election, where hopefully the so-called ‘left’ will (at last) ‘get’ strategic voting under MMP?
PS: If you listen NOW to Radio Live – you will hear – of all people Sean Plunket – promoting Winston Peters as the candidate who will best provide ‘strong advocacy’ for the people of Northland.
That by voting Winston Peters you will weaken this National Government.
That Sean Plunket can’t believe he’s saying this – but he is.
Penny Bright
Backing the WINNER – Winston Peters for Northland
+100 Penny…”by voting Winston Peters you will weaken this National Government”.
No. Labour will just patiently wait their turn, in 2017,as being “in power” as the Labour party is more important than putting the brakes on National’s destruction and vandalism.
Ah, satire. Beats a 1000 words of scholarly treatise. A real ‘piss take”.
http://www.thecivilian.co.nz/tourists-take-law-into-own-hands-by-confiscating-new-zealanders-alcohol/
I have heard that one of the reasons that so many tourists are on the road is that our tourist department is running a program encouraging that. I think it is time to cut that completely, as the more we get, the more accidents and the worse propaganda, and also the more of us who will be injured or die and the amount of negativity towards tourists will grow. It is not a win-win situation and the tourism department and yek need to give a sigh, say I think we have achieved a rise in tourism with this but have reached saturation in this market, and now we must find another line.
Someone emailing Radionz said that many rental companies in the USA refuse to hire out a car to a newly arrived tourist – they have to wait for 24 hours.
Another writer said that NZs reaction to the tourists faults seems to have resulted in them driving a little more self-righteously and perhaps more assertively rather than adjusting their own driving for caution and safety.
The tourism industry has its sights set on far more money to be made, they’re not considering a cap or limit and consider the natural limits to still be a long way off. The big players are motivated by the same things as the dairy kings. It’s all about extraction and profit and fuck the rest of the world. National are willing to support this, because the big players are part of their class, and will just keep on letting tourism do what it wants as long as it works within the neoliberal market ideology.
Crikey!
Managed to say a lot of the above on Sean Plunket’s show!
(Have been blocked from his show – but was allowed on this morning 🙂
Good.
Penny Bright
Junior Hunt, a 20-year-old recycling truck driver critically injured by the machine he was operating, has died.
In an awful accident that need not have happened.
The worker, caught in the mechanism of an EnviroWaste recycling truck in Thorndon, Wellington was found unconscious but still alive by a member of the public. There was some delay before anyone could be found who knew how to release the machinery and free the trapped injured man.
“We are devastated by this tragedy,” EnviroWaste chief executive Gary Saunders said. Mr Saunders added that family and staff had been offered counselling and other support as they began to work through their grief.
“We will endeavour to understand how and why this accident happened – this is our commitment to Junior’s memory and his family.”
He said the company would continue to work with authorities as investigations into the circumstances of the accident were carried out over the coming weeks.
This model of EnviroWaste truck has been a familiar sight in our street for a couple of years.
I have always hated the sight of it.
The truck model is a single-operating one. The machine is designed so that the. . .
full at: https://rdln.wordpress.com/2015/03/05/a-mate-for-solidarity/
Phil
While I’m reluctant to point the finger until the findings of the investigation into Junior’s death are published I would have to say I agree with Don Franks suggestion that there should be two people working on this job, for safety.
There needs to be a driver, concentrating on driving (especially manoeuvring a truck on our narrow steep streets) and another worker collecting the recyclables and operating the machinery. These are two separate jobs that require focus. Having just one operator spreads that focus too thin.
I was worried about the safety of the single operator envirowaste trucks when they came into use a couple of years ago. This death is tragic, it will be even worse if is proven that it was completely avoidable, which I’m wondering if it would have been had there been a co worker who knew the machinery and could and free Junior.
he was only 20, how much experience i wonder he had operating quite serious machinery & how long he had been working for envirowaste, just seems young to me, sure at 20 you are capable but surely experience plus heavy machinery is a better mix.
REMINDER : NATION WIDE MARCH TOMORROW AGAINST TPPA.
Hope you will join the march and send a strong message to this government to be careful.
Here is the link with all the information:
Please check the TIME and VENUE of the march for your city or a city close to you:
http://www.itsourfuture.org.nz/events/
ALSO,
Please SIGN the petition to John Key here:
http://www.itsourfuture.org.nz/take-action/defend-our-sovereignty/
[Also, More info on this thread:
http://thestandard.org.nz/kelsey-et-al-on-tppa-wn-4-akl-5-march/#comments%5D
Yes. Will out out marching in Wellington tomorrow.
Hope the rain and gales hold off. We have no rain or wind for two and half months and now it turns up, when theres an important march and two huge festivals this weekend.
DO IT!!!!
Farrar demonstrating his profound ignorance of health issues of cellphone towers:
“Excellent. The safety issues have been proved 1,000 times over, and just adding them onto existing structures shouldn’t need a resource consent.”
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2015/03/greens_still_against_cell_phone_towers.html
IARC indicated that data on long-term incidence of brain cancer will ultimately clarify the nature of the hazard. In fact, there were relatively few regular cellphone users in the Interphone study (which completed data collection in 2004) who had more than ten years use. Three other studies have carried out meta-analyses of all published data on people with over ten years of cellphone use [10-12]. All of these reported a significant risk in gliomas (cancer of the brain). One of these also found an approximate doubling of the risk of being diagnosed with a glioma on the same (“ipsilateral”) side of the head as that preferred for long-term (>10 years) cellphone use (118 cases, OR=1.9; 95% CI, 1.4-2.4). [11]
http://electromagnetichealth.org/electromagnetic-health-blog/the-economist/
You can get the Righties on the property devaluing aspects of having a cell phone tower right next to their house.
You can also imagine the outrage in Epsom if someone wanted to put up a tower right next to their precious kids school.
electomagnetichealth.org.
Seems legit.
😆
Wow, an ad hominem. Who would have thought that the Contrarian could make such an insightful post?
Are you genuinely under the impression that a loon site’s blather about the risks of spending lots of time with a cellphone held to the side of your head is in some way relevant to a post about where cellphone towers are placed? Because it kind of looks like you are.
Apple realises that it is scientifically plausible that mobile phone radiation may present health risks which may become clearer in the future. They clearly say that carrying your iPhone within 10mm of your body means risk of RF radiation exposure above SAR guidelines. Which of course means everybody who carries an iPhone in their pocket.
It’s plausible, yes. Relevance to a discussion on NIMBYs not wanting cellphone towers anywhere they can see them?
Yep, why not remove all resource consent regulations, and community consultation procedures, and let developers and corporations do as they please?
Anyone who objects is a NIMBY.
It’s not your issue and that’s fine, but democracy has been stripped away in many areas in NZ, and this is another.
There are legitimate concerns over negative health effects; re the useful idiot talking point regarding the IARC 2011 classification of electromagnetic radiation as a class 2B possible carcinogen (that it ranks alongside coffee), we have a choice whether to consume coffee, and we aren’t exposed to it 24-7.
We effectively have no choice at the moment in exposure to EMF fields, but taking away all community consultation is extreme and draconian, even if you think the fears alarmist.
Yep, why not remove all resource consent regulations, and community consultation procedures, and let developers and corporations do as they please.
Please Google the logical fallacy “false dichotomy.”
There are legitimate concerns over negative health effects;
Are there? “Legitimate” concerns would be based on known negative effects involving the type of radiation these towers produce and at levels they produce within the radius people might be spending a lot of time in. I haven’t yet seen anything that falls into that category. What I have seen is a lot of hippies who regard anything they don’t understand as a threat, while in many cases using the very same technology they regard as such a threat – “loons” seems entirey appropriate.
What a supercilious patronising response.
The only false dichotomy is you dismissing everyone concerned about EMF and corporate dictats supplanting democracy as a loon or hippie.
I’ve had a bit to do with people who’ve organised in their community to resist these incursions, and they are typically not unconventional types, for what it’s worth.
You’re deploying WO dirty politics tactics – it seems you have no other way of making a point.
The “dictat” is coming from people who refuse to furnish the evidence of known negative effects involving the type of radiation these towers produce and at levels they produce within the radius people might be spending a lot of time in, and yet insist on having a veto over them.
Do you have to climb the cellphone tower to get your head close enough to the bad ju-ju?
RF technicians and engineers know too many colleagues who have contracted unusual tumours and other illnesses to be immediately flippant about the issue.
Anyway why are you arguing for corporate rights to pollute the environment for profit? Because the “science” is on their side?
”Veto” – really?
Community consultation and resource consent requirements are veto rights now? Stop telling lies.
What did IARC rely on if not EVIDENCE to make its 2B classification? It’s not cut and dried scientifically, thus removing EXISTING democratic community rights over the placement of these installations is wrong.
It is well known that cyanide is deadly poison, apples contain cynanide, therefore apples are deadly.
What has that got to do with a cell-phone tower?
Once the resource consent has been granted, do the objectors accept the decision?
Yeah right. Like I said, they want a veto.
Why can’t Tat Loo argue his point without lying?
When did he stop fucking his pig?
Hey OAB, it’s not your fault that you’re a leftist authoritarian pig.
It’s not my fault you can’t provide evidence that cell-phone towers “pollute”, nor that you’re failing to mask your flailing failure by putting words in my mouth.
It’s passive aggressive pigfucker rhetoric though, Tat, so when you stop being a passive-aggressive pigfucker, you’ll experience less overt active hostility.
You called me a liar and had no right to. Simply pointing that out. You also did not address my point about supporting corporate pollution of our environment for profit just because they have been granted resource consent.
You are a nasty angry piece of work. Take a deep breath.
Yeah, I addressed it: you’re lying. I made no such argument. You were asked to provide evidence of harm from cell-phone towers and you immediately started wanking on about the harm from cell-phones.
Then you pretended that means pollution, and started your passive aggressive pigfucker bullshit.
If you don’t like my response to your pig-fucker bullshit, adopt some better ethics.
So your basis for attacking me as a liar is that I was talking about the safety of mobile phone radiation whereas you were talking about mobile phone tower radiation?
Is that it?
Don’t you see that the two types of transmissions are directly and literally (and physically) linked?
Wait, have you even ever worked with RF equipment other than your own mobile phone? Do you even know what you are talking about?
You need to seriously calm down.
Nope, that’s not it.
OAB: The objectors lack evidence and want a veto.
Passive Aggressive Pigfucker: Why are you arguing for the right to pollute?
This is your usual pattern: your argument fails (never gets off the ground) so you invent a strawman to attack, and then get all whiny when you get a hostile response.
You’re a leftist authoritarian. Once the state authorities have made a decision, the citizens affected by that decision should have nothing more to say or do.
I understand that point of view. And I disagree with it. Get used to dissent.
BTW, stop siding with the for-profit corporates against ordinary citizens.
http://www.magdahavas.com
As a starting point
Once the state authorities have made a decision, the citizens affected by that decision should have nothing more to say or do.
Better, and still no.
For citizens to be effective they have to be credible. The courts will decide on the basis of evidence, not gut feelings. Supporting emotive objections will help the citizens lose every single time.
I’ve been there: many years ago, up at the big table with a vague sense of injustice. The committee simply pointed out that there was nothing in law that meant they had to listen to me, and they were right.
Also this:
http://www.bioinitiative.org/
A rationale for biologically-based public exposure standards for electromagnetic fields.
Didn’t you also argue TPP opponents who point to a lack of democratic oversight are being alarmist and silly OAB?
Still running that line too?
So you’re both an authoritarian and an authoritarian follower; i.e. someone who quickly defers to authority figures and authority structures. So be it.
The committee simply pointed out that there was nothing in law that meant they had to listen to me, and they were right.
Q. And from that moment despite a reaslization that ‘the law is an ass’ you accepted defeat and have cowed to this day since ?
Q. Has patrolling this web site insulting others become your way to self medicate and claw back a sense of self respect ?
And there it is: more passive aggressive pigfucker bullshit.
Far from feeling cowed, I went away and got my ducks in a row, so that they could listen to my arguments, which resulted in success.
No, Ergo, I pointed out that complaining about secrecy in a process that requires secrecy is like complaining that water is wet.
You can’t argue with that, so you twist my words instead. Way to look dishonest.
The European Ombudsman doesn’t agree with your view that such talks have to be secret. In respect of the TTIP negotiations between the EU and US, it ordered release of the relevant documents.
And as for the TPP, you do realise hundreds of industry representatives are allowed into the negotiations as cleared advisers? So the secrecy you claim is essential is only applied to the public, not the corporates for whom the deal is designed.
Keeping it secret is the crucial element in presenting this thing as a done deal.
If you can’t grasp that problem, I find it entirely unsurprising you object to community consultation requirements over cellphone antennas.
Again, without a pause to consider my argument, or settle any ambiguity, you misinterpret it and off you go with the bullshit.
The European Ombudsman has not made public any bottom line positions of any of the parties to the negotiations.
They must remain secret or the bad guy bogeyman gets an advantage, and we wouldn’t want that now would we?
if powerful people including corporate representatives say that it is important that things remain secret from the citizenry, surely we should accept that they know more than us about these matters than us ordinary people and we should put full trust their judgement.
Is the ‘bad guy bogeyman’ in your scenario the public? As pointed out, industry already has access to the documents
It would certainly fit the tenor of your other comments on this thread, their contempt for public input.
Oh, and Jane Kelsey was unequivocal about the significance of the EU ruling, so your attempt to split hairs over it looks like a Pete George type tactic.
http://www.itsourfuture.org.nz/groser-needs-to-explain-why-nz-must-keep-tppa-secret-while-eu-releases-ttip-documents/
No.
Distributive negotiation. Integrative negotiation. Look them up.
Or carry on with the obtuse and pathetic pretence that everyone who disagrees with your emotive crap is a shill, and admit to yourself that your chances of being selected recede with every single comment you make.
OAB – your little authoritarian implied threats and projections are simply par for the course. I don’t blame you for them.
You should stop siding with the powerful and the authorities though over ***their*** needs for secrecy, over the rights of the citizenry though.
No, the bad guy bogeymen are the evil bad baddy corporations who want to take away your sovereignty. While they’re actually gearing up to take away your sovereignty, you’re busy pretending our negotiating team is going to help them, because authoritarianism!
Own goal, chump.
As for my alleged hair-splitting, stop telling lies about my argument and I’ll stop rubbing your face in your mendacity.
If there’s no need for secrecy in a distributive negotiation, why is Angela Merkel so upset that the NSA tapped her phone?
Why were they even trying?
Why weren’t you cheering them on?
Yeah, I already pointed out that industry have access and input into the negotiating process, of which you seemed unaware, so your ”bogeyman” thing is simply incoherent.
Can’t argue any more though – have things to do.
Industry players know what the list of New Zealand’s bottom lines looks like?
That’s a very serious allegation, probably involves jailtime for the Cabinet Minister or civil servant who told them, and I think I’d like you to provide evidence of that before I take it at face value.
You’re a bit behind the curve with the reality of things, aren’t you? This doesn’t require a ‘leaker’ from the NZ negotiating team.
Wikileaks already demonstrated that the US Govt shares information with US corporations for economic reasons, and Snowden showed that the US and Canada spied on its own allies at the G8 and G20 diplomatic and trade negotiations.
And all NZ internet traffic is captured via the Southern Cross Cable, if not in Auckland, then certainly where it lands in Hawaii. Probably with a Naris device. Any documents, phone calls, emails, attachments, etc that the NZ negotiating team produced, the US has.
Please try and think more clearly.
The NZ govt. knows the extent of the NSA’s reach. If they let them take the info anyway they’re complicit, and presto! Jailtime.
Are you saying they’re stupid traitors? Are you saying the negotiators don’t understand the meaning of secure communications? That they blab official secrets on public networks?
Well, we are talking about Stephen Joyce, I suppose.
I merely explained what the reality is: that our negotiating positions have likely been compromised from the start. I also explained to you how this would probably have been done.
Culpability, blame, grounds for prosecution, whatever, is an entirely separate issue.
Don’t conflate them.
So you’re saying the GCSB, which operates the equipment, hasn’t noticed that all cabinet comms are being hoovered up?
Why does this conspiracy rely on all its targets being of such low intelligence?
Your perspective is off. This is not about smart people or dumb people. I’m just telling you what has been in place since 2009 and probably in my view before then: mass surveillance and capture of ***all*** NZ communications data as part of our role in the FVEY network.
You may be incredulous that the GCSB and the SIS have played a part in that, but they do have access to the full suite of technologies tools that the NSA applies. Snowdens revelations also showed that NZ intelligence agencies also help to support and improve NSA technolgies. Note that the NSA has been shown to spy on their own lawmakers and on senior officials and delegates of friendly governments.
No effective prohibition stands against any of that now. It is fundamentally anti-democratic.
Thanks to the journalism done by the Herald, we know that if a NZ delegation goes overseas into the near Pacific region for discussions or negotiations – then they are spied on by FVEY systems based here and the data sent to the USA. Accept the revelations, and move on to dealing with them.
Soooo – no evidence cellhone towers cause harm, then? 😈
”Industry players know what the list of New Zealand’s bottom lines looks like? ”
This comment and others just demonstrate your total lack of awareness of the inherent power imbalance and vulnerability of NZ in the TPP.
You claim to have been at the ”big table” once, and I guess the view of some concerns looks different from there, but you’re being altogether too sanguine about our negotiators’ ability to wrangle something from this rort.
This isn’t some domestic row over resources, it means possibly losing autonomy to legislate because of the threat of investor state disputes. And that’s not a ”bogeyman” – there are scores of examples of investor state disputes to show how it’s already panning out in other countries.
There is no TPP agreement. Our negotiators sit in opposition to US demands.
In the linked table, A means “accept”, R means “reject”. Have a look at which clauses NZ rejects and accepts. Compare them to the US position.
Clearly our “disadvantage” hasn’t prevented us from disagreeing with them.
This is why people say there isn’t a shit-show of negotiations bearing fruit any time soon. Outrageous US demands aren’t quite so big and scary when there’s zero possibility of our acquiescence.
PS: “The big table” is a metaphor for any official body that considers arguments and evidence. Nice try though.
http://www.magdahavas.com/
Apologies in advance if this has been discussed.
Re NZ’s mass surveillance of our Pacific friends and neighbours on behalf of the U.S.
I’m largely uninformed about China’s growing presence in the Pacific. I know very little apart info gleaned from a Simon Reeves BBC doco about China buying up fisheries around the Pacific, and investing in other business. Then there was also the bit on stuffed.co.nz yesterday about Tonga owing China $14 billion, but now I can’t find that link.
Does the U.S want to know what China is up to and asks us to do their dirty work?
Would a TPPA deal block China’s expansion in the Pacific?
Would NZ spying on Pacific nations piss off one of our largest trading partners?
The TPPA deal makes it hard for sovereign nations to push back against or limit the commercial activity of large US based corporations, so to that extent it restricts Chinese businesses from getting any foothold in Pacific countries.
Theoretically then, there could be a link between our spying and the U.S protecting it’s economic interests in the Pacific? Or even Military?
“WASHINGTON — The Pentagon is fortifying bases in the Pacific and looking to revive World War II-era air bases as part of an effort to survive a Chinese missile attack that could wipe out critical installations on Okinawa and elsewhere, military records, interviews and congressional testimony show.”
From Dec 2013
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/25/pentagon-china-missiles-bombers/3665219/
(random example)
I think the link is strong and present.
Then we are beyond puppets. We are now Americans. Although, I think that became apparent a few years ago, when Warners came to town and we changed our employment law for their benefit.
To the empire, we are Socii, or possibly Foederati. We get some benefits by being involved with American empire but as is typical, most of those benefits accrue to the top 1%.
Yep, Empire propagates Banana Republics on it’s periphery so as to help maintain control by their own rich.
Banana republics and dairy republics too
If our spying were not important to US commercial interests, they wouldn’t tell us to do it.
I’m ambivalent about China or any country trying to have influence in the Pacific but I suspect that the TPPA is designed to stop China having influence.
I wish someone from Labour would make clear policy statements about TPPA.
Very interesting why Labour refuses to make clear statements on the TPPA. Suggests to me that they intend to eventually sign and screw the left. Or if National sign it, ah well it’s a done deal.
Morrissey……come in please – it enrages me to hear nothings the like of Deborah Hill-Cone and umistakeable Luddite Jock Anderson pontificating on The Panel RNZ just now re Customs’ apparent wish to demand from me passwords for my phone/laptop.
These ‘identities’, distinguishuishable only according to garrulousness and weird fascination with lawyers respectively, presume to mock my concerns about the invasion (without any pretence to reasonable cause) of my privacy. As though that were their property.
WTF use or ornament are these up-themselves idiots ?
Closely followed by my new startup: a series of comedy tweets to mercilessly lampoon the new victimhood 😈
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/67059864/measles-confirmed-on-auckland-flight
Let’s hope most of the passengers were immune.
Or to have survived having measles previously.
doesn’t that involve catching measles in the first place?
It does prevent you from catching them again 😛
And more effectively than the vaccination.
Possibly, although I doubt that, but it also comes with the significant risk of death. Personally, I’d prefer the vaccination than the actual measles.
“Possibly, although I doubt that, but it also comes with the significant risk of death.”
What makes you say the risk of death is significant? For most people that’s not true.
“Personally, I’d prefer the vaccination than the actual measles.”
If we’re talking about personal preferences, having had measles, I’d choose measles unless there were specific medical reasons for me personally why it was better to have the vaccine.
“If we’re talking about personal preferences, having had measles, I’d choose measles unless there were specific medical reasons for me personally why it was better to have the vaccine.”
You just don’t get the science behind vaccination do you ?
And you don’t get that ‘the science’ is not the issue
That you do not answer reasonable questions use rolly eyes and insults is a sad indictment on you as a human being as well as the profession you represent
I understand that you mistake your working life and contribution to the profession you represent as being ‘the science’ but it’s not
Please refer to
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-06032015/#comment-980346
….just to expand….. this means that after injection, the viruses grow and cause a harmless infection in the vaccinated person with very few, if any, symptoms. The person’s immune system fights the infection caused by these weakened viruses and immunity develops.
I know you don’t believe that is what I represent and I know it is your fear and ego which allow you come up with such blatant slander
IMO your comments and approach represent the core barriers to genuine progress and improvement to this planet and all its inhabitants
I accept the limitations which are placed upon people through dogma institutionalized training frameworks and constructs which most confuse as being ‘professional life’
Boxed into convention and trapped for eternity because of fear and misunderstanding of thy self
Please refer to
http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-06032015/#comment-980346
“You just don’t get the science behind vaccination do you ?”
Actually I do. You have no way of assessing my understanding of the science because I largely avoid the conversations here on that. The only way to know would be to have a conversation with me, which you haven’t done. Instead you’ve made some assumptions that are incorrect.
You’ve entirely missed the points I was making by my comment, one of which was a response to seeing a pro-mandatory vaccination person talk about their personal preferences. Maybe that was a bit subtle.
Fine Weka.
I really would welcome you explaining why you would rather
“choose measles unless there were specific medical reasons for me personally why it was better to have the vaccine.”
Bearing in mind this is in the context of Draco introducing the idea of personal preference to a discussion about mandatory vaccination, it’s because I trust naturally aquired immunity in my situation more than I trust the vaccine, and because I think decisions to vaccinate are context specific and in my personal situation I’d choose what I’d choose (which is a fairly theoretical argument given I was a child when I had measles and if it were now the choice would be my parents’ not mine).
I don’t particularly want to get into the details of my situation online and I appreciate that this probably then doesn’t answer your question very well (am guessing you are looking for specific medical reasons), but for me it takes us straight to the ethical issues around whether people have personal choice and autonomy regarding their health. We now have several decades of debate, work and legislation around that that basically support people’s right to make their own health decisions and be supported in that, which is one of the reasons I’m surprised to see lefties willing to ride rough shod over it so easily.
Actualy, we do – we have all your tripe on the subject on here to refer to ascertain that you haven’t got a friggen clue.
Taking the measles vaccine causes your immune system to naturally develop defenses against the measles virus thus leaving you immune to it.
Taking the measles vaccine causes your immune system to naturally develop defenses against the measles virus thus leaving you immune to it.
Q. Draco are you claiming a vaccine to be natural ?
Q. Is the vaccine more or less natural than coming into contact with measles in another human being ?
🙄 @Draco. Slur-based insults instead of engagement, says quite a lot actually.
“Taking the measles vaccine causes your immune system to naturally develop defenses against the measles virus thus leaving you immune to it.”
Again with the semantics. Yes, you are right, but it doesn’t really have any relation to my comment unless you want to argue over the word ‘natural’ for some reason.
we have to infect the village to inoculate it? Super.
Yes that’s true, it’s also far, far more likely to lead to serious side effects and the infection of others.
It’s a bit like the people who have chickenpox parties for children…morons.
“Measles is a serious illness with no treatment.”
With public health information of that calibre, no wonder that some people are sceptical and others are without primary health care skills (and no, by that I don’t mean going to the doctor).
It’s accurate so what’s your complaint about it?
It’s misleading. How measles gets managed by parents is important and the article both misleads (“no treatment”) and fails to direct people to what they should do if their child contracts measles.
Now we can have a semantic argument about what ‘treatment’ means, but to most parents I’ve known it includes how to care for a sick child, what to do about fever, pain etc. The article could be written by someone who had no clue, or this could be the actual message being given out by health authorities (there is nothing you can do). Either way, it’s a good example of both why some people are critical of public health approaches, and why some people have no homecare health skills.
” How measles gets managed by parents is important and the article both misleads (“no treatment”) and fails to direct people to what they should do if their child contracts measles. “
I agree. If measles is presently an epidemic, then this information should be added to the article for the public good. But the cynic in me thinks that it is written to bash home the vaccination message only, and has no interest in helping give information to those that may have contracted the disease on the flight.
A simple – keep fluids up, and Vitamin A supplements would be a good start. As well as low-light for patient’s comfort.
A simple – make an urgent phone call to your primary care physician and keep the patient isolated would be a good start…FIFY.
Unless it is after hours or the weekend. Unless you have no phone access.
Why not put all that in the article – which was the point that weka made and I reinforced (and you did too, while being disagreeable)
There are after hours services in all major centres and the majority of rural areas also.
The reason that none of this was put in the article is that a journalist wrote it.
And yet the journalist managed to write other things in the article.
The idea that if a child gets measles a parent can just phone and be told what they need to know fails on so many levels. As Molly points out, not everyone has a phone or credit on their phone to make phone calls.
It’s better to have health knowledge before you need it rather than having to learn or take in new things while you are stressed or tired or trying to juggle too many things eg managing a fever at home is a learned skill, not something to just be told over the phone. You can be told over the phone, but you still have to go through the process of learning how to do what you are told. Promotion of a largely unskilled home health care generation also puts the power with the medical profession and MoH (which I’m sure is what is intended), but it actually fails basic public health interests.
I’m of the generation where it was normal for parents to know how to deal with many childhood ilnesses at home. Many of those skills have and are being lost. The system thinking that parents can just phone a doctor (or visit a doctor) when there is any kind of problem is why we don’t manage things as well at home any more and it’s part of why trust is decreasing. It also puts children at risk.
@Weka so your position is that the parent should diagnose measles and treat the child at home ?
From my reading of your post it appears you suggest that there is some kind of conspiracy amongst the government and health professionals over these kind of infectious diseases ?
I can assure you this is not the case.
“@Weka so your position is that one should diagnose measles and treat the child at home ?”
Not quite. I think that in general child health is better served where the parenting population is informed and skilled at managing health care at home. This in no way precludes medical involvement, I’m saying we should have both.
With measles, I think that parents knowing how to manage that at home contains community exposure, as opposed to parents who have no idea what to do and take their infectious child to the local practice or A and E (it works the other way too. When I’ve been seriously ill my GP has told me to stay away from the clinic, too many infectious people, and stay away from town). There are flow on effects from home care, around less stress to the child, more sense of being cared for (assuming that happens) etc, and the subtle effects on immunity and health resiliency that come from that. Again, none of this precludes medical attention, it complements it.
“From my reading of your post it appears you suggest that there is some kind of conspiracy amongst the government and health professionals over these kind of infectious diseases ?”
No, I don’t think there is a conspiracy. I think it’s just a natural consequence of the particular world view that most health authorities work from nowadays. Get everyone vaccinated, don’t bother educating the population because if they need help they can go to the doctor. That’s a huge shift from when I was a kid and parents knew now to manage many illnesses at home (and when to seek medical care).
And so they wouldn’t be looking on the internet either right?
I’m fairly sure that you’ll find basic first aid/health care is taught at schools these days and is far more than anything you or I ever got.
“And so they wouldn’t be looking on the internet either right?”
Why not? Free public access at the local library, or a friend’s, or a friend prints it off or tells them. There are whole bodies of knowledge that get passed around verbally. People learn and share skills in many ways. Getting the the information out there in a variety of ways would make sense. But my point was mostly about how relying on people being able to phone a doctor in the middle of the night was a pretty limited form of public health support.
lol watch out Molly, doc don’t like dis
Thanks Molly. I’d add knowing what complications are and would look like and when one might need to see a doctor and how to do that without bringing an infected child into contact with the general population including esp vulnerable people.
It’s acutally astonishing that this kind of information isn’t being promoted, so I tend to agree with you that it’s about pusing vaccination, and it’s about keeping the power and control with the medical profession and the MoH.
“I’d add knowing what complications are and would look like and when one might need to see a doctor and how to do that without bringing an infected child into contact with the general population including esp vulnerable people.”
Yes, but once again for certain of the complications probably best done by a health practitioner or on advisement of a health practitioner.
“It’s acutally astonishing that this kind of information isn’t being promoted, so I tend to agree with you that it’s about pusing vaccination, and it’s about keeping the power and control with the medical profession and the MoH.”
This is just so far off target as to be twilight zone stuff.
“Yes, but once again for certain of the complications probably best done by a health practitioner or on advisement of a health practitioner.”
I think you are misunderstanding. I’m suggesting that at the most basic level the public should be informed about when they need to seek medical attention. I’m kind of surprised I have to be explaining this given the infectious nature of measles.
“This is just so far off target as to be twilight zone stuff.”
That doesn’t really tell me anything about why you disagree with me other than that found something weird about my comment. I don’t think there is anything nefarious about the power and control issues, but there are very clear patterns that we can talk about if you want.
Hi weka.
I have an amicable relationship with my children’s GP, who has quite an abrasive manner so is no pushover.
When it comes to fevers, we have agreed a set of parameters that I use to determine whether to expose them to the elements and a wait in the doctors waiting room. These parameters include but are not limited to: taking regular temperatures and recording them, and monitoring any changes when treating fevers with paracetomol. Whether they are still taking fluids, and how aware they are. Most parents can tell the difference after a while between a good sleep – and one that is a concern. Fevers have often moved on within 24 hours, or recovery is apparent before that time. This agreement has worked for us, and I would have no hesitation with taking my child to medical care if I noticed something outside this agreed and practiced protocol.
In this way, other patients are not exposed to something contagious, and my children have not compounded their discomfort and lengthened their recovery by hours long trips to the doctor, and exposure to the weather and other patients in the waiting rooms.
It has been a learned experience, and one that has contributed to better at home care for some of their illnesses.
/facepalm.
Keeping the infected comfortable is caring for them but does nothing to treat the disease. Again, we’re at a point in you choosing definitions for words that don’t exist to try to support your argument.
It was the article itself said that there was no treatment for measles.
It could have more accurately stated that there were no drug therapies for this disease, but once contracted the following steps should be followed – insert recommendations such as those mentioned from northshoredoc, weka and myself here.
It is a conversation about providing information that informs the public good. Instead of framing every article from a vaccination ethos of “if you have contracted it, let’s find out whose fault it is”, rather than – “if you have contracted measles – these are steps and measures you can take towards a faster recovery, and more comfortable illness”.
For arguments sake, both options could be included without impact on the vaccination message.
You’d think that, but dogmatism is hard to overcome.
“Keeping the infected comfortable is caring for them but does nothing to treat the disease.”
Women at home providing primary health care for their kids don’t differentiate in the way you just have. That’s the point (plus see what Molly said).
Oh Jeez!
I’ve just watched Judith Collins dancing on stage, on Campbell live with an Elvis impersonator who looks like Cameron Slater.
This must be the comeback………vomit!
Judith jumped the shark? I wonder whether it signals acceptance or desperation.
Either way it’s good news. She’s done. Turn her over.
This is surprising. The Australian government or state anyway has controls against overseas investors buying property and are going to order the sale of a Sydney house.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-03/hockey-orders-sale-of-39-million-dollar-sydney-mansion/6278116
http://www.worldbulletin.net/news/156111/australia-probes-illegal-foreign-home-buyers
The Australian government prefers to gift things to foreign investors rather than sell them. The coal in the Galilee Basin and the infrastructure that Bjelke-Newman wanted to build and give to an Indian company are a good example.