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Open Mike 06/03/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, March 6th, 2017 - 146 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

146 comments on “Open Mike 06/03/2017 ”

  1. Andre 1

    The alt-left and why it’s a problem too.

    “The left’s romance with revolution has always been a reality-blinder, this thermodynamic belief that things need to get bad beyond the breaking point so that people will take the vape pens out of their mouths, rise up, and storm the Bastille. But the history of non-democracies and authoritarian personality cults shows that things can stay bad and get worse for a long time, leaving unhealable wounds. Mao’s China, for example. Putin’s tubercular Russia.”


  2. AsleepWhileWalking 2


    “Drawing on a unique, new Chatham House survey of more than 10,000 people from 10 European states, we can throw new light on what people think about migration from mainly Muslim countries. Our results are striking and sobering. They suggest that public opposition to any further migration from predominantly Muslim states is by no means confined to Trump’s electorate in the US but is fairly widespread.

    In our survey, carried out before President Trump’s executive order was announced, respondents were given the following statement: ‘All further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped’. They were then asked to what extent did they agree or disagree with this statement. Overall, across all 10 of the European countries an average of 55% agreed that all further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped, 25% neither agreed nor disagreed and 20% disagreed.

    Majorities in all but two of the ten states agreed, ranging from 71% in Poland, 65% in Austria, 53% in Germany and 51% in Italy to 47% in the United Kingdom and 41% in Spain. In no country did the percentage that disagreed surpass 32%.”

    • Sanctuary 2.1

      I’m opposed to anything more than the smallest trickle of Islamic migration. Let’s be honest, the jury is on on this one. Due to cretinous and andeluvian religious beliefs Muslims don’t assimilate easily, and that combined with an economy that no longer delivers plentiful good paying jobs to immigrants and an often radicalised clergy and you’ve got a recipe for serious social trouble.

      Why import potential trouble when we have enough problems of our own? I only care about the plight of Syria and Iraq to a certain point. At the end of the day, Syrians belong in Syria, not Sandringham and we should do everything we can to end the civil war there and help them re-establish their lives in Syria. New Zealand has to many immigrants already – to the point I thinking of voting this September for the first party that says they are going to stop the flood of immigrants coming here.

      • Ad 2.1.1

        We are pretty fortunate that we are one of the least religious and most institutionally secular, and most democratically reflexive and balanced countries around. Islam is as much a bother here as the Mormons.

      • jcuknz 2.1.2

        I believe that most or all Muslim immigration be stopped and a tax imposed to pay for looking after them preferably back in their own countries. A strong prosperous NZ with full employment is more useful in the world than creating a further trouble spot

    • Ad 2.2

      The Netherlands election will be a real bellwether for this.

      And then, the French Presidential one.

      After that, Merkel’s one.

      If this set of elections triggers further exits It’s possible to see the EU really crack open into three or four blocs.

    • Our results are striking and sobering.

      Their results are unsurprising and uncontroversial. If they’d asked whether Muslim immigration should be minimised rather than stopped they’d most likely have got overwhelming numbers saying yes. Immigrants who are adherents of fundamentally illiberal ideologies aren’t going to appeal to Europeans.

    • Sabine 2.4

      How many of those said yes to this question:

      do you support the immediate stop of any bombing campaigns by the US/UK/SA/FR etc. Do you support the immediate stop of any weapons delivery to these countries by the US/UK/DE/FR etc.
      Do you support to cut down on your life style a bit so as to gain independence from oil? Or other natural resources extracted in foreign countries via the aid of paid mercenaries, military campaigns and so on and so on.

      Cause if they fucking don’t, refugees, be it war time refugees, climate change refugees, economic refugees, religious refugees will continue to come.

      It really seems that the comfort of our time created nothing but a bunch of knicker twisting, pearl clutching fearful little wankers.

  3. AsleepWhileWalking 3


    Que dramatic music…

    The question is could it withstand NZ conditions?

    • Carolyn_nth 3.1

      Interesting. Though I’d say the machine built “an entire house” in 24 hours is a little misleading. It is actually more of a stand-alone studio. No bedroom/s.

      And it’s only the shell. This from the comments below the article:

      I wanted to build a new office building printed in 3D because I had heard so much about it.

      First of all: The real cost, and not just the walls came out more expensive then build by hand.

      Second: The could only build basic forms. Why the hell would I want that?

      Third: 24hours? They where talking about a timespan of 1 year to get all the regulations in order.

      And the quality… nah… It’s all so much bullshit and if we where to build only by 3D printers, our buildings would look so ugly we’d think we live in a typical communist era.

      And did anybody notice the size of the example? It’s the size of a parking spot. Who the hell wants to live in that?

      And what about the pipes, wiring and all?

      It’s all bullshit. A bricklayer would build the same in 24h and with better quality.

      • weka 3.1.1

        There’s also a big problem with concrete, GHG emissions and climate change, so I’d want to know that is true for this material they are using. Gearing up an industry based around conventional concrete is really really stupid.

        • Graeme

          Concrete does produce a shit load of GHG in manufacture, but the net over the finished item’s life of a couple of hundred years may be close to neutral as it absorbs CO2 throughout it’s life. There’s also huge passive benefits from concrete houses.

          http://www.sustainableconcrete.org.nz/page/co2-absorption.aspx The link in that page get’s right into it but is quite old now

          • Molly

            Earthern houses have the same thermal mass benefits without the CO2 issues.

        • Poission

          There’s also a big problem with concrete, GHG emissions and climate change, so I’d want to know that is true for this material they are using. Gearing up an industry based around conventional concrete is really really stupid.

          Back to the future is a very viable option if cash is king.


      • greywarshark 3.1.2

        In NZ kitset –
        room with loft $24,000
        Room can be shifted $6,000 –
        many advertised on Trade me
        Cabin- The Cottage $14,000

        And the latest bright spark from Gareith Morgan and the TOPs Party –
        In the mean time we are pleased to announce the launch of our cannabis law reform process. This is our first experiment with a member-led policy development process, with the goal of involving people in the decisions that affect their day-to-day lives, as per the goals of our TOP Policy #4: Democracy Reset.
        If you’d like to participate in the process you can become a member here.

        • weka

          Re TOP, all I’ve seen so far is a middle-management type consultation process. Doesn’t look particularly democratic to me. Bill did a post on it the other day, and I critiqued in the comments.

          • garibaldi

            I think there is a tendency on the Standard to criticize TOP without actually reading the policies.
            This is due either to Gareths history of being successful at making money , or his infamous stand against the real problem with moggies.
            Try looking at the policies…. they are often more left than Labour/Greens.

            • weka

              I have looked at some of their policies. Put a couple up that you think are worthy and I’ll have a look.

              My criticisms of TOP above were quite specifically about process. If you think I am being unfair, please show how.

              TOP could cost the left the election. Or rather, lefties who vote TOP could.

              • greywarshark

                I’m hoping that Nats who want some progress and effectiveness from their government will be drawn to TOPS, after all he has made money, so there must be something to him etc.

                And his policies will be game changers, just have to watch that they are not too theoretical, and that he doesn’t run on targets, and short-term competitive funding for structural problems, which at present tend to be cynically treated as cyclical.

                Which organisation today is – having unreasonable demands placed on its shoulders, having its funding dropped at a time of increased stress and hardship, or being dropped altogether? This probably in favour of some private outfit dreamed up by some retired or even serving politician having found a small hole in the government dam to siphon out taxes for their own benefit, and become legitimate beneficiaries while lambasting all the needy as illegitimate.

            • Sabine

              i have had more then one discussion witht he guy on his fb page and he lost me forever when he complained about ‘payee slaves’ (his words) aka workers not ‘revolting’ against the status quo which is him.

              so a rich wanker, known only for being rich, wanking on about cats – but not spending a dime on de-sexing or feral cat population control or any of that shit, who is on record for not paying tax, who is on record for keeping his properties empty cause carpet and such, wants people who earn min wage to revolt.

              Tell me garibaldi, who do you think would go to prison for rioting, the rich wanker inciting it or the poor fuck who goes out and says fuck yeah?

              and then his policy of taxing the family home, cause it ain’t productive if it isn’t rented.

              so yeah, that tosser can have a lot from me, but never my vote. I’d rather vote Legalize Aotearoa at least they have been campaigning for Cannabis reform for a long time and not just to get some votes.

              to be so desperate to really just pick up anything beggars believe. Settle for anything, settles for nothing.

      • Draco T Bastard 3.1.3

        First of all: The real cost, and not just the walls came out more expensive then build by hand.
        Second: The could only build basic forms. Why the hell would I want that?

        That’s typical with new processes.

        It really won’t be long until 3D printing of houses produces many different forms for less.

        Third: 24hours? They where talking about a timespan of 1 year to get all the regulations in order.

        Having the correct regulations in place is a once off thing. Once they’re in place then it’s all go.

        And did anybody notice the size of the example? It’s the size of a parking spot. Who the hell wants to live in that?

        Well, I would happily live in 36m^2. I’ve lived in 25m^2 and thought it was huge.

        And what about the pipes, wiring and all?

        What about them?
        Have to put them in after the building’s built as per normal.

        A bricklayer would build the same in 24h and with better quality.

        A brick layer hasn’t got a hope in hell of laying it all down in 24 hours. That’s actually the major problem.

      • lprent 3.1.4

        I live in a 51 square meter apartment. Have done for 19 years. I rattled in it when I was on my own.I would like another 10-15 m2 after my partner moved in about 9 years ago. It would.provide room for a separate office.

        But I really don’t have time to deal with anything bigger than that.

    • ianmac 3.2

      Wow! And this technology will expand. How about linking 38sqm units to make 200sqm houses?

      • Bearded Git 3.2.1

        @ianmac “How about linking 38sqm units to make 200sqm houses?”

        Here you fall into the classic Kiwi trap. 200 sqm is TOO BIG.

        In NZ now we need houses/apartments to be 38, 76 and 114 sqm, and no bigger. See the article below* that shows that apartments in Stockholm average 41 sqm

        The 200 sqm house on a 700m2 section is history in terms of developing sustainable non-sprawling cities.

        * https://qz.com/264418/why-its-nearly-impossible-to-rent-an-apartment-in-stockholm/

        • Ad

          You are pretty hard pressed to get a bank to load for anything smaller than 55m square.

          • weka

            yes, the banks are part of the problem in the housing crisis.

            • Ad

              True although by choking first home loansdown, and pretty much cutting out investors with less than 40% cash available, they are a part of the solution to the debt crisis.

        • james

          What about free choice. I have a large house. I like it.

          I wouldnt want to go to anything smaller than 250m ish.

          • Draco T Bastard

            You can have any size you like as long as you’re willing to pay the taxes on it. The bigger the house the bigger the taxes.

          • greywarshark

            I can see you need a large house to house your intellect.

            • james

              Using that ‘logic’ I assume you live in a bird house.

              I was commenting on freedom of choice to build whatever the hell you like in reply to “In NZ now we need houses/apartments to be 38, 76 and 114 sqm, and no bigger”

              Do you have anything to add to the conversation – or are you simply trolling and trying to start a flame war.

        • jcuknz

          The 200m2 house could be too small for Maori [ or others ] who get together to build a multi-family home as recently in the news. While the 700m2 section provides outdoor living space by compacting the housing relative to ground area. I am sure with more thought wiring and pipes could be incorporated by the printer. Big houses are an unwelcome ‘americanism’ introduced by television shows boosting consumerism.
          Builders displaced would/should be on the UBI so they retrain or create custom housing for the discerning. But most people simply need a roof over their heads rather than a bridge.

    • Siobhan 3.3

      You all seem terribly keen to do away with builders, any idea on what jobs they should transfer to?
      Maybe working at the call centre you’ll be phoning when you realise even ‘robots’ and their masters are fallible.

      • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1

        R&D in building.

        May need tertiary degrees.

        It’s not jobs that we need to protect but the development of both the people and the economy.

        • Siobhan

          “May need tertiary degrees”….pretty sure R&D requires tertiary degrees, at the very least.
          So a job that anyone could, potentially, access, will then be limited to those who can afford to go to University. And to those who have the skills/intellect/mindset to complete an academic qualification.
          Not everyone can be ‘developed’ that way.
          And throwing them onto a UBI isn’t the pathway to inclusiveness either.

          • Draco T Bastard

            So a job that anyone could, potentially, access, will then be limited to those who can afford to go to University.

            Or we make university free again and a UBI.

            And to those who have the skills/intellect/mindset to complete an academic qualification.
            Not everyone can be ‘developed’ that way.

            That’s a real narrow mindset thinking that only one way of thinking is worthwhile.

            Just because some people don’t think the way that universities teach doesn’t mean that they don’t have ideas and it’s ideas that we want. It’s those ideas that we’re presently throwing away because of such narrow minded thinking.

            And throwing them onto a UBI isn’t the pathway to inclusiveness either.

            No but including them in the R&D in whatever capacity suits them is.

            • Siobhan

              “That’s a real narrow mindset thinking that only one way of thinking is worthwhile”…that’s my point.
              I’m not sure which University you attended, but I’ve found school/universities/techs to be very much geared up to ‘one way of thinking’.

              And ofcouse…free university -with open and inclusive ways of teaching- with a UBI so people can retrain, paid for with proper taxation of housing and Corporations, and affordable rents and homes and all that….could you tell me who to vote for to get that stuff??? ‘Cos I’ll be there with bells on.

              • Draco T Bastard

                And ofcouse…free university -with open and inclusive ways of teaching

                No, not inclusive ways of teaching but inclusive ways of learning.

                Being able to listen to anybody with an idea and to help them develop it until it fails or it becomes viable.

                could you tell me who to vote for to get that stuff???

                Is it really that you want to wait until a political party has it or do you want the power to tell the politicians that’s what you want?

                • Siobhan

                  Autonomism would be top of my wish list.
                  Though the problem in NZ would be to convince the ‘working class’ that they are, infact, working class, and that there is a need to unite. ironically I think that being entirely excluded from housing security, be it home ownership or decent, secure and affordable rentals, is one way to encourage this new mindset of Unity.

                • McFlock

                  Something practically achievable in the real world, especially in the next few months before the election, would be nice.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    And while you’re waiting for that nothing ever fuken changes.

                    • McFlock

                      lol except the stuff that’s practically achievable in the real world. That’s sort of the meaning of “practically achievable”. As opposed to the pipe dreams you demand should suddenly appear.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    You do know that you could have an overall vision and work towards it by taking small steps don’t you?

                    That’s what the right-wing have been doing for the last 40 or 50 years or more and now we have radical RWNJ policy settings that, according to you, are impossible to change.

                    So, what would it take to have people engage in local democracy and have the politicians do what the people decide?

                    • McFlock


                      Here’s what happened over the past 40 or 50 years:
                      Two competitive schools of economic thought in academia, their difference driven largely by their respective calculations of the theoretical value of a multiplier that represents the velocity of money circulating through a system, had extended academic debates.

                      The dominant school of thought lost ground when faced with a number of different shocks in the 1970s, and the hardship caused by those shocks also contributed directly to the election of a number of tory politicians across the globe.

                      These tories latched on to the arguments of the second school of academics in order to justify policy measures that the politicians found self-serving and wanted to do anyway.

                      Wealthy tories who weren’t politicians also funded more of the second school of academics in order to justify a policy agenda the wealthy tories wished to see implemented.

                      With this assistance, and the occasional artificial crisis, politicians therefore had the political power to roll back the previous 40 or 50 years of social advances.

                      Unless you have intellectual credibility with the establishment or the funds to finance a “think tank” to say what you want, or you are a senior politician, chances are that you have taken zero “small steps” to achieve your isolationist, fully automated, direct local democracy pipe dream.

                      Because direct local democracy requires a complete reshape of local body politics, both in electoral system and a rewrite of the fundamental roles of elected and unelected local officials.
                      This won’t happen without a fundamental rewrite of the parliamentary laws regarding local bodies.
                      That requires the parliament to recognise the wishes of local democratic structures. Which is circular.

                      CV thought he was going to change the face of NZ politics. Yeah, nah. Don’t fall into the same trap. Personally, all this blogging stuff is recreational. I get my social worth from my job, in that I’m fortunate enough to be paid to be a very small cog in a wheel that helps bring some social issues to public attention. I’ve turned down other jobs that were less socially fulfilling, but I’m no monk. I’m just a guy who is lucky enough to like doing a job that contributes to the public good, rather than being a tobacco industry lobbyist.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    These tories latched on to the arguments of the second school of academics in order to justify policy measures that the politicians found self-serving and wanted to do anyway.

                    And that differs from what I said how?

                    Unless you have intellectual credibility with the establishment or the funds to finance a “think tank” to say what you want, or you are a senior politician, chances are that you have taken zero “small steps” to achieve your isolationist, fully automated, direct local democracy pipe dream.

                    I’m making noise – that’s all I can do. I reach thousands of people everyday.

                    And my policies aren’t isolationist. I just iterate that a free-market must result in a minimisation of trade rather than the maximisation that our politicians and economists believe is what we should aim for. That’s the nature of limited resources and actually taking into account physical reality.

                    • McFlock

                      Right, we can make everything here and import nothing. Not isolationist at all. /sarc

                      anyhoo, it differs from what you said because there wasn’t much of a plan of small steps. It was a big step, using anything and everything as an excuse. Their opportunity rode largely on luck. If there’d been no initial disagreement between honest academic schools, there would never have been the tory revolution. If there hadn’t been the crises, there wouldn’t have been the tory revolution. But the important point is that it was a big step with the pretence of rational and impartial analysis behind it. It wasn’t so much a “popular” movement as a movement grudgingly accepted by a lot of the population as “There Is No Alternative”. Crises, remember?

                      You don’t have a popular movement, and you don’t have the pretence of institutional intellectual validity. So what are you going to change with your demands for dramatic policy changes?

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    So what are you going to change with your demands for dramatic policy changes?


                    I try to explain why the present system doesn’t work and what needs to be done to make a sustainable system.

                    And, yes, I’m trying to get those changes to come about through discussion and building a popular support base.

                    Right, we can make everything here and import nothing. Not isolationist at all.

                    Well, we can make everything we need here but that’s not what I’ve said.

                    I’ve said, time and time again, that our international trade needs to be based upon standards but that once those standards have been set then trade will minimise because it really will be cheaper to make things here rather than to import.

                    And, yes, that is dependent upon automated manufacturing but that’s the way the entire world is going. If we don’t follow (preferably lead) we will become a basket-case economy.

                    • McFlock

                      It seems to me like you’re confusing “describing the outcome” with saying “what needs to be done” to bring that outcome into reality.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.4

      That’s the one I linked to a couple of months ago.

      And, yes, I think you’ll find that it can handle new Zealand conditions. It’s made out of concrete after all.

      Wonder what it’ll take to get it to do multiple levels.

    • Graeme 3.5

      “The question is could it withstand NZ conditions?”

      It’s the same structure as with concrete block, just the “blocks” are formed in place and continuously. I’d say it’s got huge potential to produce outstanding housing at very low cost.

    • BM 3.6

      I wonder if it would be better to 3D print formwork for the concrete then try and print the concrete itself.?

      Or a combination of the two? that way you might be able to 3D a roof?

  4. Andre 4

    Maybe all Trump cares about is getting attention, good or bad, and doesn’t care if he never actually accomplishes anything.

    In which case, he’s winning, bigly.


  5. joe90 5

    For the past couple of days TS has been loading at a < 28k dial-up speed.

    Anyone else?.

  6. saveNZ 6

    Goff bemoans $4b shortfall to cover city’s needs…

    (Sounds like he is not considering decreasing immigration that is making up the demand on the city infrastructure (44,000 new cars in Auckland last year alone), nor looking at the corruption charges amongst the 1 billion of rate payers money given to Auckland Transport which is clearly not up to the job, or the 1 billion of failed IT that was never investigated by the council, or the corporate welfare like money spent on Westgate Mall that the rate payers were funding the private developers for, or the eye watering amounts spent on corporate private lawyers at the council who are spending up a storm helping Auckland council, do such things as helping Ports of Auckland steal the harbour, cutting down ancient Kauri trees in Titirangi, paying for prosecuting the corrupt Auckland Transport officials and their advice and evidence in the unitary plan which was so poor it got withdrawn after being challenged …, or wonder why they did not get transport in place before the SHA and zoning changes in particular at the outer limits.. )

    Nope apparently in the neoliberal ‘user pays – he’s going to introduce congestion charges to the most poor in Auckland. (Because most rich people live in central suburbs and therefore don’t have to commute).

    In Phil’s mythical Neoliberal land, workers can then tell their employers to ‘shove it’ as they won’t come into work between 8 – 6 pm as to expensive….

    Then they wonder why many locals can’t afford the cost of living any more…

    • Sacha 6.1

      “Sounds like he is not considering decreasing immigration”

      Auckland’s mayor has no power over immigration rates. That’s central govt.

      “or the 1 billion of failed IT”

      And that’s a line from the Act-aligned Taxpayers Onion and chums, never substantiated. Sure the Council overspent on their IT transition, but nowhere near that amount.

  7. saveNZ 7

    If you’ve never been to Oamaru – time to put it on your list.

    The South Island town has recently been bumped up to fourth place on China’s largest international property website – meaning it’s about to become hot property for overseas buyers….


    • weka 7.1

      Fuck. Perhaps now we can stop talking about the “Auckland” housing crisis. NZ has a housing crisis.

      • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1

        New Zealand has a foreign buyer crisis – we have far too many of them.

        One is far too many.

        • Sacha

          We have a foreign *funder* crisis.

        • weka

          In fact it doesn’t matter if the money comes from China, the U.K. Or Auckland, it will still fuck the local economy.

          • Sacha

            It’s the cheapness of overseas money compared with ours, and our incredibly weak investment regulations.

            • weka

              If you sell an $800,000 house in Auckland and can buy the same sized house in Oamaru for closer to $300,000, who do you think is going to do best in an auction? The Aucklander or the local? Do you think the prices will go up, down, or stay steady?

              In addition to the foreign cash issues, there are other contributing factors to the NZ housing crises.

          • Draco T Bastard

            Yeah, pretty much.

      • Antoine 7.1.2

        Bet the good people of Oamaru don’t feel like they’re having a ‘crisis’


        • McFlock

          Ah, by “good” you must mean “comfortably wealthy and already own their home, rather than looking to buy in the next five years”.

          • Antoine

            Good for who owns a home or owns or works in a business there…

            Not so good obviously for who is set on buying their own house there


            • One Anonymous Bloke

              Or those who may be comfortably off themselves, but also have empathy. Look it up sometime.

              • Antoine

                Well, but you can also have empathy for those who work in Oamaru and are looking forward to a buoyant economy with a bit more money doing the rounds


                • McFlock

                  That’s like having empathy for sweatshop owners and slumlords. Sort of overshadowed by empathy for their victims

            • McFlock

              or those who are renting

              • Antoine

                How are rents in Oamaru trending?


                • McFlock

                  No idea, but some of those property owners will want a return on investment

                • Unknown, but if Chinese investors start driving up property prices in Oamaru, the question of what effect that will have on rents isn’t a difficult one to answer.

                  • weka

                    And the reason it’s not difficult to answer is because we’ve seen this play out a number of times before. Which Antoine should know.

                    • Antoine

                      I know Oamaru reasonably well. It is touristy, thrives on buzz and already has a number of overseas people. What it wants is jobs. I can’t see this change being net negative for the people there.

                      Show me three people who actually live there who think it’s a ‘crisis’ and I might be more impressed.


                    • weka

                      Ok, sure, Oamaru is special and won’t be affected like other places in NZ by rising house prices.

                    • Antoine

                      Also just because foreigners are buying up fancy houses on the hill behind Oamaru, doesn’t necessarily mean there’ll be much impact on house prices or rents in the more suburban parts.

                    • weka

                      Oamaru has figured out how to restrict sale to only certain parts of town? Good for them.

                    • Antoine

                      > Oamaru is special and won’t be affected like other places in NZ by rising house prices.

                      It will be affected somewhat like other parts of NZ by immigration, some of the effects positive (like giving a boost to business or helping some home sellers), some negative (like making it harder for some home buyers).

                      > Oamaru has figured out how to restrict sale to only certain parts of town

                      No, it’s down to the nature of the houses in different parts of town.

                      Just as in Auckland, there are some areas where foreign buyers want to buy.

                      Have you been to Oamaru Weka, do you know the community there? Maybe you should talk to the community before deciding what it wants


                    • weka

                      I know Oamaru and I know people that live there. I’m not saying what Oamaru wants. As if there is any such thing as a single Oamaru community anyway. Please don’t put words in my mouth. Go back and reread what I said, I was clearly making a link between future increases in house prices in Oamaru and the likelihood of it joining the NZ housing crisis, based on what has happen in many other places in NZ. If you want to make an argument against that, fine, but don’t misuse my position.

                    • Antoine

                      Oh, I agree that this news may lead to a house price rise in Oamaru; my point is that I’m not convinced that the people of Oamaru will be overall worse off as a result. Perhaps you agree with that.


                    • weka

                      I think it’s the wrong way to measure things. Letting some people fall through the cracks because more people are doing ok is not the NZ I want.

                    • Antoine []

                      I understand

      • Sabine 7.1.3

        Weka, three years ago, I and a few others here said it loudly and often, AKL is just the biggest City to be sold to the highest bidder, but that this was a disease that would spread – we even pointed to other Cities that had started to show the same symptoms.

        ha, we were told to move where we could afford to live.
        There needs to be an understanding now happening in NZ, that Kiwis will never be rich enough to live anywhere but overseas if they have to compete with people coming from overseas, cashed up and ready to buy a shack for what they would consider peanuts – while at the same time the Kiwi is earning peanuts.

        A few month ago we bought a little cottage / garden on the countryside. Over half of the village is empty houses with huge sheds to house speed boats and such – these guys don’t live here, they come for a weekend, stay at their houses, don’t spend a dime on anything and leave sunday eve. The people that live here, or used to live here have a . a hard time finding rentals, or b. paying rent, and the businesses that used to support them close shop cause the rents are now too high, the rates are too high, the line charges are to high and shit.

        its not the Auckland Crisis, is the New Zealand Crisis, and us Aucklanders have begged people to see it as such just to be told to move where it was cheaper.

        Newsflash, there ain’t no cheaper anymore.

        • Draco T Bastard



          Allowing foreign ownership is pricing NZ out of the range of NZers.

        • weka

          +2 The problems are now well beyond some tinkering with the market.

    • halfcrown 7.2

      Stand by for all the spivs to make a killing and destroy one of the last bastions of old New Zealand.
      Great place with great people but this year may be my last visit especially if the main street gets like Dominion Road.

  8. Anne 8

    There’s a whiff of fascism in the wind

    Bit more than a whiff…

    One of the best I’ve read on the subject. Thanks to Bryan Gould for articulating it so clearly.

  9. Red 9

    Didums the poor snowflakes are offended, I suggest most don’t give a toss and don’t really need condasceding self interest lefty sympathy

    [lprent: Diddums yourself. It is hard to see that has anything to do with the post. ]

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • Red 9.1

      My point been I don’t think young people or stoners really give a toss what BE says, petals like greywarshark obviously do

      • lprent 9.1.1

        And complete arseholes like drug dealers and you don’t eh?

        • Red

          I am not joining the dots here, why so exercised

          • Muttonbird

            Better start joining the dots ‘cos I think you’re on a warning.

          • lprent

            My point being that I was just following EXACTLY your interesting example of pointless abuse. I guess you don’t like receiving it? I guess you are a complete Wimp eh?…

      • One Anonymous Bloke 9.1.2

        Here’s the deal. Bill English has five mates, and he listens to them. Meanwhile, the only people who are prepared to work for the shitty wages and conditions they’re offering are stoners.

        And that’s how the National Party makes immigration policy.

  10. greywarshark 10

    Thanks for advice Red. You are always so well based in your thoughts. Rock steady on Me good, others bad. Me know all, great white? (sounds like) chief. You must bless TS every day – a place for unthinking people to express their toxic emotions harmlessly to oneself. That’s lefty sympathy for you – Suckers!

    [lprent: reply to red above..]

  11. greywarshark 11

    Something’s changed, the site is moving okay today, though as mentioned before, was slow. Hope you are well and enjoying most of the sunshine, and ale.

  12. 3How low are the gnats? Leaderless they spin around the plughole like a greasy bit of hairy soap.


  13. McFlock 13

    Oh look, another story on how young people can buy homes as long as their parents are in a position to help significantly.

    • ropata 13.1

      Just another piece of PR fluff from the Auckland Property Flippers’ Herald to keep their well heeled readers comfortable.

      Three Years Old And Already An Auckland Homeowner: Toddler Simon Brown owns four Titirangi properties already so why are you still renting? pic.twitter.com/hiVomGcizB— Nic Sampson (@NicSampson) March 5, 2017

      Gen X/Y are so fucked. Up to eyeballs in education debt. Can’t buy houses. Probably no superannuation. Blinglish stealing funds from Kiwisaver.

      English & Co. are fanning the flames of class war.

      • james 13.1.1

        “Up to eyeballs in education debt”

        Like any debt – it is smart to get debt that gives a return, not on something that gets no value.

        So – nothing wrong with education debt if it helps you get a job, and you earn a decent wage. Heck – after the threshold you are only paying back 12%.

        Its all the people who use it for useless or hobbie courses, that are unable to use it for a decent job, who have useless education debt.

        Personally – I think that the smartest thing they can do is limit the borrowing on useless courses that cannot return decent paying jobs.

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          Yes, ban pilot training, journalism, photography, nursing and teaching, then realise James is an idiot who just wanted to display one unthinking right wing prejudice or other, and un-ban them again.

          • james

            Hey – if you want to ban those courses thats up to you.

            That says more about you than me.

            I was thinking more along the lines of dance studies, fine arts, Gender studies, and Theologiy.

            • McFlock

              That definitely says a lot about you.

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              Which says something about you, and nothing whatsoever about those various disciplines. Thanks for confirming my prediction.

              I’m curious as to why you want to destroy a multi-million dollar industry though. You must be some very special kind of stupid.

        • McFlock

          But student debt was designed to reflect the personal benefit to the student of their education (Todd report of the 1990s). Which means on average there’s no net return, anyway.

          Secondly you’re confusing value with fiscal return, a common error that tory fuckwits fall prey to.

          Thirdly, projecting which jobs will be “decent paying” in five years time is both fraught with error and well beyond the abilities of most people, matching their personal circumstances with aggregate government predictions.

          Fuck, my longest term and highest paying job was the result of choosing a single paper literally because I liked saying the paper title and needed an extra six points to make fulltime study. It’s all luck.

    • weka 13.2

      Just to throw another angle into the mix. This debate is largely centred around middle class people right? Because when I bought a house in the 90s the only way I could do that was with the help of my parents. I was on a benefit and had no chance of saving for a deposit. My friends and peers who didn’t have parents with investment money had no chance of buying at all. So this is in no way a new phenomenon, it’s just that now the middle classes are being affected.

      I’ve had more sympathy for the Gen Ys if they were radicalising around this, including around renter rights, but much of the selfish baby-boomer vs stupid Gen Y rhetoric is complaining that the neoliberal system fails another block of people now.

      IMO we’re well past that being solvable. There is no return to a time when current young middle class people can do as well as their parents. Best we get to grips with that and get a different plan, because we are just about out of time in terms of the looking crisis riding in on climate change. That will make these squabbles look petty. By now we should be designing new ways of owning land and creating sustainable culture.

      • Ad 13.2.1

        I just reject that.

        My Aunties and Uncles can well remember the Depression and the thought of the state simply rolling out new houses – for people to buy and to rent – both at reasonable prices, seemed a ludicrous bourgeoise conceit.

        It was done.

        So it’s been done before, and New Zealand society is well ready for public sector interventions in housing like that again. Just takes a really bold coalition government to do it.

        • weka

          There’s nothing in my comment that suggests the state shouldn’t be building houses, they should. Haven’t seen a good proposal to do that yet mind, but I agree that in principle it’s possible and necessary.

          How would you bring the price of land down?

      • McFlock 13.2.2

        Yeah, but did it make the news when you bought your house?

        NZ is well short of the sort of scartcities and population densities that still somehow make auckland one of the most expensive cities in the world. And part of the XY vs Boomer argument is that Boomers are seen to have both had the heavily subsidised if not free education (instigated by their parents), privatised (the public assets their parents created) when they were in positions of power, and now still zealously guard their retirement benefits from those coming after them.

        Quite bluntly, the global problems we face aren’t an excuse for NZ’s local generational theft.

        • weka

          “Yeah, but did it make the news when you bought your house?”

          No. Which is my point. The reason it’s news is not because people can’t afford to buy a home, it’s because middle class people can’t. Working class needs aren’t as newsworthy.

          “Quite bluntly, the global problems we face aren’t an excuse for NZ’s local generational theft.”

          Not sure what you are getting at there. Who should my parents have been voting for in the 70s and 80s? Who did you vote for in the 80s and 90s? It’s not like there was a lot of choice. But there was some. So we could say that anyone who voted National or Labour is culpable. Can we apply that reasoning now to middle class Gen Y?

          And I’ll just keep pointing out, it’s not only an Auckland housing crisis, it’s a NZ one (or set of crises).

          • ropata

            It is not the fault of ordinary Kiwis that the only political choices we had for the last 35 years was between neoliberal blairites or neocon tories. Thank God MMP is (at last) beginning to take effect, and arguably it curbed the worst excesses of austerity that fwits like Don Brash were dreaming of.

            Rogernomics and Ruthanasia killed the kiwi dream. The myth of NZ being a land of opportunity is a tattered old fairy tale. This is definitely no longer a worker’s paradise

            • weka

              Exactly. Which is why I find the whole Boomer vs Y thing off. It’s a bunch of privileged people arguing on the Titanic.

              (btw, if more NZers had voted Alliance and Green we’d be in a very different situation now, so it’s not like there was no choice. We bottled it, are still bottling it, so probably will continue having to suck it up).

              Have a look at this thread,

            • exkiwiforces

              Yep Ropata, that and many other reasons is why I left NZ to move over to the lucky country back in in early 98. I now have 2 houses, a bach with 20 acres of bush, 350K plus in super, 200K in shares and my dream car 1960 T Bird along with 110 Landie. Would I be able to do that NZ if I stayed? The answer is a big fat NO!! on the shit wages that NZ has and the way the country has been managed since 1978 to now as the Kiwi dream is now dead as the Moa and the Dodo.

              BTW i’m a working class lad who was high school drop out.

          • McFlock

            a beneficiary might not have been able to buy a house, but lower-skilled workers could.

            Yes, part of the reason it’s newsworthy now is because the middle classes are also being cut out of the housing market, but it’s the younger ones who are being cut out, the ones who couldn’t jump on the ladder back when houses were affordable (because they were still in school).

            • weka

              Actually I think many people are cut out irrespective of age or class just because the cost of housing has gone up so much. What I’m suggesting is that the whole Boomers are selfish fucks thing is the wrong target. We should be aiming our sights at neoliberalism. If Gen Xers want on that gravy train and then need to keep it going, just like their parents, they can get fucked.

              • McFlock

                The neoliberalism gravy train, or the own your own home, get healthcare and a decent pension gravy train?

                Boomers introduced neoliberalism, ffs.

                Many boomers are also shut out, but that’s the same with every privileged group that has grown comfortable at the expense of other groups. Different label, different method, but still the same timeless bullshit.

                Are all boomers arseholes? Nope. Not at all. Some of my best parents are boomers. But there has been intergenerational theft. Even without the global problems, it will take generations to repair the socioeconomic and national environmental problems caused by the boomer generation.

                • weka

                  Roger Douglas was born in the 1930s. NZ Labour was hijacked and NZ has never recovered.

                  Of course there has been intergenerational theft. But doing some more thieving isn’t an appropriate response to that IMO.

                  I’d still like to know who NZers should have voted for in 1984 and 1987 and 1990.

                  I’d also like to know what the plan is beyond blaming Boomers.

                  “The neoliberalism gravy train, or the own your own home, get healthcare and a decent pension gravy train?”

                  If they want a non-neoliberal gravy train, they’d best get working then eh? Voting as hard left as they can go might help. Using their resources to create new political and social structures might be a better bet (but vote anyway). Pushing for something that is no longer possible is a waste of fucking time, and worse, it’s rearranging the deck chairs.

                  • McFlock

                    Caygill, moore and prebble were all boomers. As were Richardson, Shipley, and lockwood smith.

                    They could have voted New Labour or Alliance from 1990 on, when it became obvious where lab4 was going.

                    Home ownership is perfectly possible. Pensions are possible. Healthcare and education are possible. Any scarcity in those basics are construct not even of the marketplace, they’re products of government policy.

                    As for voting “as hard left as they can go”, I would agree, but then there’ll probably be a party consisting of Dracos (or CVs) who make sweeping categorical policy statements without thinking through the nuances. Sort of leftist Trumps. So I’d say “as left as they can go before it looks like the party’s platform will have more unintended consequences than the actual intended outcomes”.

                    • weka

                      Heh, fair point. I was meaning as hard left as is possible currently ie. the Greens. Which Get X aren’t doing really right?

                      Home ownership is perfectly possible. Pensions are possible. Healthcare and education are possible. Any scarcity in those basics are construct not even of the marketplace, they’re products of government policy.

                      True, but as long as we have neoliberal parties, not much is going to change. I’d have more respect for the complaints if I saw some decent activism arising. At the moment it just looks self serving, and as I said, those wanting on a fairer neoliberal gravy train will not be getting much support from me. Those days are gone. That doesn’t mean it has to be bad, but we really need to pull our finger out and pining over missing out on housing investments just isn’t smart even if it is understandable.

      • Karen 13.2.3

        My large, extended family (cousins, sisters) are all working class but were able to buy houses in the 1960s, 1970s and early 1980s by capitalising on the Family Benefit and getting a State Advances loan at reduced interest rates. My partner and I bought a 1 bedroom cottage in 1980 and got a State House loan. We had to save for the deposit as didn’t have kids, but at the time he was a postie and I was an artist with a part-time clerical job.

        Home ownership was once accessible to low income people and there is no good reason for it not to be again. It just takes the political will.

  14. Muttonbird 14

    Oh dear, he’s scrambling. Embarrassing non-answers yesterday turn into rushed ‘overnight policy’ today. His minders must be furious.


  15. Muttonbird 15

    So he didn’t touch the 45-65 bracket – his voter base. How cynical.


    In response to the rich using housing as a retirement fund, asset-testing Super should come in immediately, imo.

    • Herodotus 15.1

      the policy does not start to take effect until 2037, me thinks he got caught out and after a late night came up with something to maintain his credibility but in reality is meaningless. Imagine announcing a policy that is 20 years away…. Oh yes there is the 90% of waterways safe for swimming 2040. Nice to have long term solutions, pity about the more immediate issues 🙁
      PM Bill English has announced the age of eligibility for superannuation will rise to 67 in gradual steps from 2037.

      • McFlock 15.1.1


        so the National Party Policy template is:
        Read Labour’s policies from 2014;
        Weaken and dilute it if at all possible; then
        postpone any measurable outcome until 2040.


        • James

          Which seams different to labours thought process. “We had a policy that was good and the right thing to do – but we might lose votes over it – so let’s drop it “

  16. fisiani 16

    Masterful performance by Bill English. Let the media beat up his comments and scare the beejesus out of people then announce it will take forever to implement. Hurray. Anyway who under 30 really thought they could retire at 65?
    This is about securing the brighter future.

  17. rod 17

    Hundreds of people taking their money out of Kiwi saver to pay for their mortgages, rent etc. It’s all part of National’s Brighter Future for us Kiwis i guess. sarc.

    • Sabine 17.1

      and so they should.

      Essentially many people will pay more in interest on their mortgages and debt. If they are sick, the savings should be able to be used for payments of treatments.

      Savings should be accessible in hard times, if it is not what is the point saving.

      Oh maybe in 35 years you get a few cents to the dollars that you put in if the world was not blown up, if we did not have another financial crisis that will do away with the savings, if if if.

      Seriously, i would suggest to anyone who has debt and is serving a high interest rate to take that dead money and pay of the debt. life will improve immediately.

      In saying that, you don’t seem to know that ‘People’ actually have to fill out forms, prove hardshit and such before they get a few pennies out of that dead money that serves no one but financial institutions and the government.

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