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Open mike 06/05/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 6th, 2015 - 188 comments
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openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

188 comments on “Open mike 06/05/2015 ”

    • Paul 1.1

      So the corporate propaganda machine tries to distract and dumb us down with stories about…..



      Reality T.V.

      And some as a result can’t see the wood for the trees.

      • jenny kirk 1.1.1

        and changing the flag. you left this one off the list Paul – biggest distractor of all.

    • The Chairman 1.2

      $137.6 million and nearly a third went on administration? Wasteful duplication.

      Whanau Ora was initiated to overcome failures in the welfare system. Yet, 4 years on and there is still grave implementation problems with no consensus on the aims of the initiative.

      No wonder it’s poorly performing. One can’t expect them to attain their goals when there is no consensus or wider understanding of what the objective is.

      • Paul 1.2.1

        The privatisation of social care by another name
        Used by the neoliberals to buy off the leaders of the Maori Party.

      • lprent 1.2.2

        Agreed. That was the problem that was identified when it was a twinkle in the Maori party coalition talks. It appears that they never bothered to listen and implement anything to define desired outcomes or to account for results.

        They need to urgently.

        What worries me as much is the massive percentage of money in administrative overhead.

        It just screams jobs for the favoured…

        • Paul

          Class, money and power.
          The elites of Maori and pakeha both abandon their people for these things.

        • The Chairman

          Urgently indeed.

          Apparently, despite its failings, they plan to throw more money at it.

          • One Anonymous Bloke

            You can say that about any government program. Or any worthwhile endeavour at all, for that matter.

            • The Chairman

              @ One Anonymous Bloke

              At least most Government departments know what their main objectives are.

              Objectives and the means of achieving them require to be identified before more money is thrown at it.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                Under a National government, the main objective of government departments is to see that Cabinet Club members get what they’ve paid for.

                To put it another way, why should Whanau Ora have to set or meet goals when Charter schools and notional standards exist, and Stephen Joyce is a minister?

                • The Chairman

                  @ One Anonymous Bloke

                  A wrong doesn’t justify another.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    When the people responsible for Charter schools, notional standards and Steven Joyce are the ones who have to hold Whanau Ora to account, “wrong” doesn’t come into it.

                    Any expectation that Whanau Ora perform better than say, Anne Tolley or Nick Smith, will be seen as racially motivated hypocrisy.

                    • The Chairman

                      @ One Anonymous Bloke

                      It does if you consider the support of charter schools and national standards to be wrong, thus it fails to justify the failings of Whanau Ora.

          • lprent

            I don’t think that money is the answer. Set their own goals is fine. Expect to be accountable for them.

        • Tracey

          AND they are p against a main party (Nats and Act) who don’t actually want it, support it and therefore probably undermine it.

          • lprent

            Which is why the MP need to make damn sure that it visibly works if they want it to be retained.

            At present they can’t show that.

            For all of my sympathy since the 1980s for trying to various ways to improve the appalling stats for the Maori population, I can’t see how WO is helping. It just looks like a boondoggle.

          • The Chairman

            @ Tracey

            National fiscally support it. Moreover, it’s implementation is overseen by Te Puni Kokiri (the Ministry for Maori Development) so I don’t see how the Government is undermining it.

            • Tracey

              they fiscally support it at an amount they were prepared to give, if you see what I mean, so it is probably under-funded for what it is meant to achieve, that is partly what I mean by undermine it.

              • The Chairman

                @ Tracey

                Surely (with this track record) you’re not suggesting they should have been given more funding?

                The funding would probably have had a more positive impact if it was directly given to those that required it.

        • Sacha

          They seem to be including evaluation/research work in ‘admin’ – though even then, how it can take $42m and not be associated with clearly-stated objectives is beyond me.

      • Lanthanide 1.2.3

        “$137.6 million and nearly a third went on administration? Wasteful duplication.”

        Te Ururoa Flavell says that the report is including training, research, analysis and other start-up functions as part of the administration. If those things are stripped out and considered separately (as arguably they should be), the true admin costs are only about 20% of the total budget, which he says is not out of the realm of other government programmes (although his words tend to suggest that it is on the high side – but again that’s not too surprising for a brand new initiative).

        • lprent

          So the question then becomes if the “start-up functions” are reducing. It has been 4 years. You’d expect that over that 4 years you should be able to see a clear pattern of decreasing expenditures in those areas year on year in the organisations doing it.

          I’m not holding my breath on that by the way. From what I hear, those functions tend to increase after the start-up.

          But the point the audit office is making still stands. WO shows a clear pattern of having a large backend and very little front end in terms of measurable results. It has a pattern of organisations involved in it not having any defined goals and very little measurement of progress to whatever goals they are targeting. That makes it damn difficult to justify the levels of expenditure from taxpayers money.

          • Karen

            I’d also like to see a comparison with the costs and effectiveness of all the social programmes that were canned to supply money for Whanau Ora.

            Many people do not realise that there was no extra money allocated for Whanua Ora, so if the administration costs are a third this is likely to mean a drop in expenditure on frontline services, so less money getting to those who need it.

        • The Chairman

          @ Lanthanide

          No doubt the report included those costs as they are seen as part of the administration cost.

          Therefore, why deduct them?

          Convenient if one wanted to play the cost down. Surely Te Ururoa Flavell has no interest in attempting to do that (sarc)?

          The initiative is 4 years old and they still don’t know what the objective is. That should have been established long before the initiative got taxpayer funding.

          • Murray Rawshark

            The objective is to keep the Maori Party voting with FJK. It is one of the more successful government programs in terms of achieving its objectives.

        • Draco T Bastard

          the true admin costs are only about 20% of the total budget, which he says is not out of the realm of other government programmes

          IIRC, the administration of the DHBs only accounts for ~3% of the budget (of course, National has capped that and it’s causing problems as it’s too low). 20% is more in line for private organisations.

      • Sanctuary 1.2.4

        “…Whanau Ora was initiated to overcome failures in the welfare system…”

        there’s your problem.

        What you meant to say was:

        Whanau Ora was initiated to enrich Tariana Turia’s Iwi mates in order to prop up the National government.

        • Once was Tim

          Having spent 10 years at TPK in the past (thank God! in the past), I’d like to know WHERE the programme is administered from. Things were often better devolved out into the regions – each of which were very different in nature and with different priorities, but they were often hampered by the of ‘Head Office’ bean counter/cost centre/purchase agreement/cost cutter corporate culture that’s infected most of the public service. I can completely understand the administrative overspending if it is HO …… like most of what goes on – especially since the Natzis have come to power – the old adage penny-wise and pound foolish springs to mind. That devolution may seem counter intuitive in terms of admin costs, but sometimes when you get a load of pigs feeding at the trough there is a feeding frenzy with each trying to become King or Queen Piggie

      • Bearded Git 1.2.5

        @The Chairman I’d love to know who was paid what from that $40m of admin costs. OI request anyone?

        • Once was Tim

          That OIA request would probably have to be quite considered and very specific – and even then you’d get some BS response

          -What is in the purchase agreement between Te Puni Kokiri and the government that is in any way related to the government’s Whanau Ora programme that covers the expectations and deliverables (or some such other bullshit wordage) – I’m not in BS-artist corporate mode and haven’t been (thank Christ) for several years!
          -What directives, guidlines or instructions has the Ministry provided its regional offices when implementing Whanau Ora programme policy.
          -Who, in each of the Ministry’s cost centres, whether Head Office or in each of the regional offices is responsible and accountable for the administration of Whanau Ora policy (by job title(s) and cost centre)
          ….. and provide a breakdown of administrative costs such that it shows the costs of travel, accomodation, hosting of meetings, koha, and any other relevant accounting material.

          I’m picking I’d not be surprised at a reply

      • joe90 1.2.6

        $137.6 million and nearly a third went on administration?

        Those in the know got their share.

        Whanau Ora, the supposed magic bullet, will turn out to be just
        another opportunity for those in the know to fleece the taxpayer


        • greywarbler

          I looked up joe90s link. What a sad thing it is to have been right about Whanau Ora. It’s what I thought too, and not me just being cynical. It had happened before that money spent has not hit the target.

          I liked the spirited anecdote from Vicky about single parents answering a prejudiced moaner about women single parents’ lack of personal responsibility.

          Open mike 20/12/2010

      • David H 1.2.7

        “$137.6 million and nearly a third went on administration? Wasteful duplication”

        Or fingers in the till?

        • The Chairman

          Hard to tell when nobody seems to know exactly where all the money has gone.

          More scrutiny required.

          • Once was Tim

            I think the Queensland Government discovered that not so very long ago as well after some ‘Hawaiian Prince’ took them to the cleaners under the same sort of regime that operates ….. (say no more … too many corporatist future careers at stake)

    • esoteric pineapples 1.3

      I see Bill English said high house prices in Auckland were all the Green Party’s fault in Parliament yesterday. Amazing how much power a small party that is not in government can have ….

      He also inferred that Auckland Council was part of the Green Party. Another amazing fact that no one else has known up till yesterday

      • Tracey 1.3.1

        given the public’s ability to soak up their lies, why wouldn’t you keep shovelling them.

        Building more houses alone, is not enough to deal with Auckland’s problem. And not if they are built properly.

  1. did you know that any harbour bridge pedestrian/cycleway – will be tolled..?

    ..while cars/trucks travel free..?


    • b waghorn 2.1

      Cars pay taxes bikes don’t.

    • b waghorn 2.2

      Cars and trucks pay red taxes bikes don’t. Maybe there should be a small tax on the purchase of new bikes targeted for cycle ways .

      • stever 2.2.1

        No, cars don’t pay taxes.

        Drivers and cyclists pay rates and taxes. Bikes have almost no infrastructure for them compared with cars, and they do almost zero damage to anything (roads, people, environment).

        I think that the difference in total cost (taxes, rates, fees) seems fair given the difference in provision and harm.

        • Murray Rawshark

          Tautoko. Trucks also only pay a small percentage of the damages they do to infrastructure.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 2.2.2

        Maybe being fitter keeps you from being a burden on the health system and the money saved can be spent on cycleways.

        • phillip ure

          and depending which way the wind is blowing..

          ..you will be able to pay to suck in exhaust-fumes..

        • vto

          Yep exactly and a very real reality.

          I suspect this is one of the major components of the Greens claim of cost-benefit ratio around 1:7 for cycleways, which is phenomenal of course and I can’t believe it gets dismissed by so-called financial whizz-kids like Joyce and Key who instead brainlessly opt for roads with cost-benefit ratio 1:0.5….

        • McFlock

          you’d have to balance (lol) that against the costs of riding at half the speed of a couple of tonnes of steel that’s <2m away from you as it passes.

          Frankly, if I did that in a workplace OSH would have my guts for garters. With or without the protection of painted lanes.

            • McFlock


              My point was merely that any argument along the lines of ‘cyclists are healthier therefore cost less’ requires the costs of less exercise to be offset against injury costs, which (as you point out) can be lowered by infrastructure costs. And then there’s the pension costs…

              Funnily enough, ASH used the same argument (smoking costs $XXX a year), but the math didn’t stack up anywhere close when you included pensions, let alone the implicit assumption that non-smokers don’t require expensive end-of-life care.

              But now I see I’ve wandered into discussing both cycling and ASH, each topic individually can send me into a rant, so I”ll withdraw before I say anything particularly offensive 🙂

              • miravox

                I’m more inclined to go with quality of life improvements (not necessarily monetised) rather than cost/benefits analyses of years lived, but I think (?), with cycling at least, that is still speculative.

              • Draco T Bastard

                Pollution from transport causes ~400 deaths per year in NZ. Things have improved with better fuel quality but they’re still not great.

                Get rid of the cars and those 400 people continue to live.

                • McFlock

                  Because buses, vans, and trucks will cease to exist, too? People will suddenly stop having to move anything and anyone that can’t go on a bike from A to B?


                  • Draco T Bastard


                    Get rid of the cars used for commuting, replace them with bikes and the pollution goes down which decreases the number of people killed by vehicle pollution.

                    • McFlock

                      don’t facepalm me just because your love of biking made you suddenly lose all common sense and/or language skills.

                      BTW, just upgrade those cars and change the fuel and you almost halve the deaths within 5 years, according to your MoT source (the 2012 update). Might not have to dress in fluoro lycra and ring crappy little bells with my fat arse in the air after all- thank goodness for small blessings.

                      Besides, where would I put my umbrella? (that one’s my gift to you 🙂 )

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      BTW, just upgrade those cars and change the fuel and you almost halve the deaths within 5 years, according to your MoT source (the 2012 update).

                      Get rid of the cars altogether and the deaths go down more than that. Sure, PT will be available but our best option there is to shift that over to electric.

                      Might not have to dress in fluoro lycra and ring crappy little bells with my fat arse in the air after all- thank goodness for small blessings.

                      Most people riding bikes don’t wear Lycra and what happens in a few years when you won’t be able to afford to run the car anyway?

                    • McFlock

                      Ah, we reach argumentum collapsium.

                      In that instance, I’m not sure entirely, but somewhat I’d that hope I’d follow the sentiment death before dishabille.

                      Even if not all bicycle riders dress in lycra, all bicycle riders look silly. It’s an essentially ungainly and, frankly, absurd mode of transportation. Besides, I have a frequently gammy leg (for which, should your transport infrastructure predictions eventuate, I’m suddenly greatful).

                      The other point being that if/when battery energy density approaches that of a petrol tank, cars will begin the transition towards emission-free anyway.

        • b waghorn

          Yeah there’s lots of pluses to bike lanes ,but the endless we want but we don’t want to pay for it routine that comes from Auckland is getting old.
          I ‘d never go to a pub with a jafa every time there round came up they would be in the toilet.

          • Draco T Bastard

            but the endless we want but we don’t want to pay for it routine that comes from Auckland is getting old.

            The problem with that line is that Auckland’s already paid for it but hasn’t got it. Auckland’s been paying out more than they get back for a long time.

            • b waghorn

              Any idea were I might find the proof to that claim.

              • Draco T Bastard

                Government finally debunks Auckland funding myth

                The service approach is probably the fairer of the two measures and suggests that Auckland receives about 2% less funding its share of population. As a total Auckland receives the second lowest amount of overall government spending per capita and around $1,000 less per person that the national average. Due to Auckland’s size that equates to over $1.4 billion a year and while that is across the all sectors, it would certainly pay for a few key projects.

                $1.4 billion per year is a lot of money.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.2.3

        You mean like GST?

        • b waghorn

          Gst gets paid on new vehicles and they stiil pay either ruc ‘s or a lot of fuel tax.

      • In Vino 2.2.4

        Do you really believe that there are heaps of people out there who own and use a bike, but not a car?

        Get real – when a car-owner rides a bike (as I do at times) that car-owning bike-rider actually reduces wear and tear on roads.

        Do you ever use the road while reducing wear and tear on it?

        My view is that bike-owners should be given a discount on their car Rego.

        More logical than your position. (And I assume you meant reg taxes.)

        • b waghorn

          They should ad a acc component to the purchase price of bikes as we’ll IMO .

  2. Ron 3

    Australian PM ‘very happy’ to be met by ambassador to France and his partner amid report it led to resignation offer. Looks like Tony Abbot is trying to catch up with John Key in fiascos after his staff tried to stop him meeting a same sex partner of Australia’s Ambassador to France

    • Draco T Bastard 4.1

      Even one person living in poverty is indicative that that societies economic system is a failure. If it is also destroying its environment then it is doubly a failure.

      We have a lot of people in poverty and we’re destroying our environment all for profit.

  3. Tautoko Mangō Mata 5

    Who is bombing Who in the Middle East? Risk discusses the sectarian and theological nature of the conflict in the Middle East.

  4. mpledger 6

    Based on recent events, It’s a pity the comments on this photo have closed…

    Caption competition

  5. North 7


    Poor Sir Brian Lochore – a noted New Zealander used to bolster TheGodKey’s flag stunt. Wouldn’t be surprised if inside himself he feels shit used.

    • Charles 7.1

      That story opens with an ambiguity bordering on the incorrect. The “Then and Now” chart is also incorrect, bordering on “leading”. But…. who needs history when you have etc etc so on and so forth…

    • Tracey 7.2

      Poor brian lochore who thinks leaving your kids in the car for hours while he drank at the pub and hitting them to keep them in line “never hurt anyone”? That poor gullible Lochore you mean?

        • Tracey

          I doubt Brian Lochore is endorsing anything he doesn’t believe in, including the National Party.

          • rawshark-yeshe

            for sure — a dedicated bought-and-paid-for bunch of numpties. not a designer to be found. and as you suggested, I’m sure Christie will be charging by the link if she can find a way to get away with it.

            Profligate waste of millions while kids starve etc etc etc ad nauseam …

  6. Penny Bright 8

    Whanau Ora was / is privatisation of social services, effectively using (some) Maori as a ‘Trojan horse’, in my considered opinion.

    Where exactly has the money been going – when $40 million out of $137 million – has been spent on ‘administration’?

    Who have been the real ‘beneficiaries’?

    Where is the transparency and accountability in the spending of this public money – without proper written records?

    Why is the Public Records Act 2005 not being implemented and enforced in a proper LAWFUL way across central and local government (and the judiciary)?

    Penny Bright


    • Sacha 8.1

      “without proper written records?”

      Does the Auditor-General’s report say that? I’d expect too *many* records with an admin spend like that.

    • Once was Tim 8.2

      I’m not sure @ Penny, but I’d not only like to know WHERE WO is being administered from (supposed oversight from HO maybe?? – see above), but also how much has been spent on airfares and by whom. I’ll bet the ‘by whom’ will be King or Queen Piggie and their enterage. Some of those regional airfares can get pretty expensive – especially when they’re as regular as they once were, even more so when facilities like video-conferencing are/were readily available.
      – Treats and trinkets
      – Lolly shops and cargo cults.
      ….. (and I mean at a Head Office where the beautiful people reside while their regions suffer)

      …… not much has changed at TPK I see, although I once had high hopes.
      Trickle down and TINA is alive and well!

  7. Melanie Scott 9

    I think it might be really important to make submissions on the flag debate/debacle. Judging from recent alignments in the letters to the editor in the Herald on ponygate, Saudi visits etc, it seems that Nactional supporters are busy thumping certain points of view. They will have been instructed to make submissions endorsing flag changes etc etc, so opponents need to do the same, even if they think the whole thing is ridiculous.

  8. Pasupial 10

    New developments in the SDHB outsourcing of food preparation:

    A meals on wheels driver who vowed to quit if hospital kitchens were outsourced has changed his mind before the final decision on the controversial 15-year deal with a multinational corporation… Dr Terry Hearn said he had learned the proposed agreement with the Compass Group did not include responsibility for delivering meals…

    board member Richard Thomson warned about an unintended consequence of a volunteer backlash – Compass could gain financially if it was also asked to deliver the meals…

    The union has threatened legal action if the move goes ahead, saying the board might not have complied with legislation protecting vulnerable workers…

    The decision will be made behind closed doors, once the public and the media are told to leave the meeting.


    The only way that I can see that; “Compass could gain financially if it was also asked to deliver the meals”, is if the SDHB were to pay them to do so. This would wipe out the savings projected for doing a deal with them. Hearns is not the only driver/ volunteer who has been considering quitting, though has been the most prominent (as most haven’t wished to be named in the paper).

    The public meeting is on at (thanks to Potato for previously saying this, though these more complete directions are now online) :

    Thursday, 7 May 2015, 9.00 am
    Board Room, Level 2, West Wing, Main Block,
    Wakari Hospital Campus, 371 Taieri Road, Dunedin

    So if you’re in Dunedin with free time tomorrow morning, this could be a place to go if you care about public health. Still no info on how to make submissions, I figure if I print something out regarding the dodginess of Compass group (see their Wikipedia page), then I may be able to get it on record; so at least the board won’t be able to say they didn’t have warning. According to the agenda, public will be turfed out at 10:30am:


    • weka 10.1

      Thanks Pasupisl and good luck.

      So much wrong in that article I don’t know where to begin. I’m still stunned that the govt would spend $4m, or even $3m on the business case.

      Why are the media and public bring excluded from the vote? Will we know who voted which way?

      Neither the reason for the volunteer changing his mind, nor the rationale for the boycott giving advantage to Compass are adequately explained in the article.

    • The Chairman 10.2

      Union present counter-proposal to match Compass Group’s savings


      • Pasupial 10.2.1

        Thanks for the clip Chairman.

        Does it not strike anyone else as strange that $4 million has already been spent formulating a business plan projected to save $7 million over 15 years? Admittedly, that’s only in the SDHB, and the combined speculated savings for the entire health system may be larger. But part of the reason that the SDHB is in such dire finacial straits is that they owe HBL (the “government entity” who developed the plan) a lot of money.

        Health Minister Coleman’s solution seems to be the imminent appointment of a commissioner (except in name) to the board to ensure that expenses are trimmed in the short term (and damn the long term consequences). It’s depressing that the union being able to match a multinational’s (which is known for poor payment of contracted employees) terms is seen as a victory, these days.

  9. Charles 11

    Just putting a personal opinion marker here to say the Whanau Ora discussion, while I appreciate and comprehend the valid business theory being presented, the elimination of overall context slides very close to a style of thinking of which no one likes to be accused.

    • weka 11.1

      I agree (I think. I’ll put my thoughts more bluntly so it’s clear, but would be interested in your view too).

      The critiques about the operational and financial management sides seem neutral. However funding culturally appropriate health services for Maori is not privatisation. We already publicly fund large chunks of Pakeha focussed services via NGOs.

      Maori/Iwi aren’t ‘private’, they’re treaty partners with the crown and have rights around health care that are only barely being addressed by the Crown. I have no doubt that National are capable of screwing the Mp on this, but there’s always been a fair sized racist element on the left in criticising Whanau Ora, and Turia.

      If we’re going to look at fairness of funding, let’s remember that it was the Clark govt that axed race based funding which sounds good if you are Pakeha with a superficial understanding of how to manage social security and public health care, but in reality it meant a whole raft of community based, coal face, culturally expert service lost its funding. That’s not too different than say the cuts to elderly homehelp funding a few years ago.

      I’m sure there are problems with Whanau Ora, but we have a long way to go before we can claim to have a good understanding of what those issues are in context.

      • adam 11.1.1

        I think a big problem for Whanau Ora, it it has never generated the type of support, Kohanga Reo has. It appeared to me, to not explain itself well. It was always a bit top heavy as well, and anyone with half a brain would have spotted that before the report.

        That said, everyone I’ve seen go through a Whanau Ora programme, has had good results. Some excellent, and some just good. It is a system which works. Could it be better, yeap – but so could all social services.

        The rest, I agree with Weka.

        • Sacha

          “let’s remember that it was the Clark govt that axed race based funding”

          and let’s remember why that happened – because the Hollow Men did a better job of being the opposition than we’ve seen since. Recall how Labour’s ‘Closing the Gaps’ policy was embattled?

      • The Chairman 11.1.2

        @ weka

        Funding culturally appropriate services (or any services for that matter) through private providers is a form of privatization.

        Moreover, anyone that thinks Whanau Ora is solely for Maori is mistaken.

        • weka

          Are you aware of just how many health services in NZ are provided by govt funded NGOs?

          I know that Whanau Ora is not only for Maori, and that doesn’t change anything about what I wrote.

          • The Chairman

            How many health services in NZ provided by govt funded NGOs is irrelevant to the point I made. One (or many as the case may be) privatization doesn’t justify another.

            Racial connotations or the suggestion of them are generally put forward by those that are misinformed of the fact.

            • weka

              What fact?

              It’s strange how there’s no hue and cry about all the other govt funded NGO services. Probably because it’s not privatisation. Further, we already have politically acceptable private health care, consider a GP practice for instance.

              There is nothing wrong with NGOs offering services that are funded by govt. the govt can still control the kaupapa of the service via the contract. This is so routine now in NZ (for a long time) and when people start criticising Whanau Ora for privatisation it makes me think they don’t know what they are talking about.

              Worse, too many times the state has proven that it is fundamentally incapable of delivering services directly to Maori that are culturally appropriate and fulfi treaty obligations. Maori simply have a better understanding of what their people need. Do they always get this right? No, but I can tell you some shocking stories about health care delivery to Pakeha direct from govt. So can adam by the looks of things.

              Iwi are not private organisations. They are self governing treaty partners with the Crown.

              • The Chairman

                The fact Whanau Ora is not solely for Maori.

                NGOs are a form of privatization. They are not publicly owned by the crown.

                Whether there is anything wrong with this type of delivery depends on ones perspective and, of course, how the provider performs.

                Just because one agrees with the overall notion doesn’t necessarily mean they would support an organization that was poorly performing.

                Not only is Whanau Ora a form of privatization it’s also unnecessary duplication. We already have a welfare system up and running. Thus, the goal should be to improve it (by taking Maori input on board) not duplicate It.

                Iwi are not publicly owned, thus are not public providers.

                All organisations contracted by the taxpayer should be accountable to the taxpayer.

                • weka

                  I think you are largely making a semantic argument re privatisation and ignoring my point that there is a double standard here on the political debate.

                  Iwi are only private organisations if you ignore the Treaty of Waitangi. Or if you believe that Maori are a subset of NZ culture, which you appear to do. The problem when it comes to health services direct from the state is that the state is still by and large a Pakeha dominant entity. Your ideology says all welfare should be provided by the state, and currently that means a Pakeha system except where the system is adjusted to take other cultures into account. Too often that is lip service. What you are suggesting is that Maori should continue to have poor service.

                  • Tracey

                    well said. the main point is that whanau ora is a publically funded public organisation recognising a non pakeha way/method to approach issues previously addressed solely through a western european lens/framewotk

                  • The Chairman

                    @ weka

                    There is no double standard in critiquing an initiative that has been reported to be under performing.

                    Moreover, some previously warned of this outcome from the outset. Structures were deemed to be to loose.

                    Pointing to other organizations and claiming a double standard is a distraction from the poorly performing initiative being critiqued.

                    Iwi are not publicly owned by the crown, thus by that definition it places them in the private domain.

                    I’m not the subject matter. So quit with the attempted pot shots, which, by the way, are far off the mark.

                    I’m highlighting the state structure is already up and running, therefore that’s fiscal savings that could be further utilized, opposed to the money currently wasted on the duplication.

                    Additionally, if there is a genuine will to want to further Maori, there would be no problem adopting and implementing new initiatives, which could then be tried in smaller regions and if successful, expanded nationwide. Reducing risk, thus costs, with savings going to further help.

                    Therefore, my point is the state is in a far better position to cater for this, thus the goal should be to improve its performance and adopt new initiatives to improve its delivery.

                • adam


                  Really the chairman, really. Did you take the time to read what Weka said?

                  But let me responded to you “We already have a welfare system up and running. Thus, the goal should be to improve it (by taking Maori input on board) not duplicate It” Like a Tory government will listen to the voices of Maori – particularly when a labour government hardly ever has.

                  Ever wondered why Maori and Pacific islands are taking charter schools on? Same as above – because the state and it’s agents just don’t take on Maori input or ideas. Hello.

                  And well Whanau Ora is first and foremost a vehicle to deal with Maori and others – health issues, using Holism as it’s core. This means looking at the whole welfare of the person – which inevitably spills out of health, into other parts in their lives. It is also one of the reasons why it’s an expensive approach – multiple people are drawn in to deal with the issues, in a most fulsome manner.

                  Yes it’s expensive short term, but the long term benefits have not been thrown into the accounting mix – because it’s so much simpler to blame Maori again, and strip away another programme.

                  Goodbye Whanau Ora – a great idea – killed by penny pinches and racists.

                  • weka

                    “Ever wondered why Maori and Pacific islands are taking charter schools on? Same as above – because the state and it’s agents just don’t take on Maori input or ideas ”

                    Indeed. Or why the Mp even exists.

                  • Tracey

                    +1 particularly your last sentence

                  • The Chairman

                    @ adam

                    The Maori Party are in coalition with National because they believe they will listen, thus give them input.

                    Labour did well in the Maori seats so clearly a number feel they will be listened too.

                    Allowing Maori to take on Whanau Ora, prisons or charter schools is a sign they’re being listened too.

                    Whanau Ora is under performing. People drawn in usually come from other funded agencies such as the police, WINZ etc…

                    I’m not blaming Maori, but clearly people and structures are responsible. Nor am I advocating the end of the notion, merely suggesting how we could improve its delivery by improving and utilizing the current welfare system.

                    • weka

                      Bloody strange use of the term ‘listened to’ there. The Mp formed because Labour weren’t listening to their own Māori MPs let alone wider iwi. I would see the Mp’s alliance with National as the height of pragmatics rather than being based on a belief that they will be listened to. They’ve got some leverage and so they’re using it. And as much as I dislike a lot of what the Mp have done, I can’t blame them for that all things considered.

                    • Tracey


                      My observation is also that Turia held a grudge for a long time and that she was never going to countenance a coalition with LP while she was around. She has never forgiven Clark for S&F (as she is entitled) but imo she made it personal and to the detriment of Maori (as far as that term can be used in a blanket way).

      • miravox 11.1.3

        I think the Clark government axed ‘Closing the Gaps’ which was the vehicle for race-based spending, but not all the spending. Maybe some programmes that might have been were wound back due to the petty little racists, like those that supported the Orewa speech, but health funding remained heavily in favour of Maori, Pacific, with social deprivation.

        If higher funding based on ethnicity wasn’t quietened I doubt we would have had a 3-term Clark government.

        Obviously more needs to be done to close the gaps, because despite overall health gains for Maori increased funding alone did not close the gaps – there is something missing from the equation.

        “I’m sure there are problems with Whanau Ora, but we have a long way to go before we can claim to have a good understanding of what those issues are in context.”

        ^^^ this

        It depresses me sometimes when I think about what a nasty little country NZ can be and the opportunities lost because of it. It’s like the progressive left is always worried about stepping on the toes of middle NZ, whereas the political conservatives could care less – they just railroad their opinions and policies through.

        • weka

          Thinking today about how Labour caved on Closing the Gaps, I wish they would just get some principles, even if it means losing an election. They could’ve stood their ground at that point, and instead of cutting the race based funding, they could have introduced extra funding for non-Māori that was also specifically targeted, and used that as an opportunity to make more people feel included and respected, and to demonstrate why targeted funding is relevant and necessary. Let the bigots say what they want, and just keep on with the fair society.

          Of course things like the Foreshore and Seabed Act probably demonstrate that this was more than just the bigots on the right jumping up and down.

          • miravox

            ” They could’ve stood their ground at that point”

            Yup. Just be brave sometime. Make the strategists work out how to deal with what Labour’s principles are (I know they have some, they’re just too willing to make excuses about them) rather than taking advice from the strategists about what they should be.

            Although the backlash to Closing the Gaps was scary. To me, that points to flawed strategy and PR. It didn’t take into account the ‘more than just the bigots on the right’ and also seemed to ignore the struggling non-Maori , which was a mistake. Maybe policy and strategy would be better with more than middle class policy advisors on the team, just sayin’.

            • weka

              Ae, but is there a fix for that? Maybe a generational one, but nothing coming soon I suspect.

              Do you think it would work for a party like Labour to have targeted funding for non-Māori. Or would a programme to help eg working class white men just blow the middle classes’ minds? (no idea how working class white men would feel about it either).

              • miravox

                Ha! the easy questions first 😉

                My interest is barriers to healthcare (and even that is in a narrow field) so I’ll go with that..

                I know that there is health funding for low decile populations regardless of ethnicity, which would include a proportion of working class white men, it’s just not as much as for Maori/Pacific peoples. I agree that men and white working class men in particular may feel affronted by programmes to ‘help’ them. It’s a cultural thing, I think – the rugged individual and all that.

                That doesn’t mean, of course that nothing can be done. ‘Normalising’ specific diseases and processes for screening and treatment might be a better bet There are quite a few examples in heart health, skin cancer for that (and of course, campaigns to reduce drink driving use normalisation of not drinking and driving to good effect) e.g. telling a mate at work you’ve got high cholesterol and need to ‘go see the doc for a check-up’ doesn’t have the same feel of personal ‘failure’ as physical impairment, bowel cancer or such that afflict a whole heap of wwcm.

                As for targeted funding to specific socio-demographic groups – I’m beginning to agree with the argument for universal benefits to get buy-in from the general population. A good example in education is student allowances, which at the moment goes to the very poor and the very rich i.e. the groups that can declare low or no income. Now that blows the middle class minds. That doesn’t mean there is not a place for targeting service provision and delivery (and yes, that means specific funding). So I’m still working that out in my mind.

                From a personal perspective, where I grew up, in a street that was predominantly Maori my parents watched as neighbours got home doctor visits while they had to walk us a couple of km to the doctors when we (5 kids) had whooping cough going around. (I remember coughing fits and vomiting along that way) – This combined with the targeted housing programmes – the resentment my parents feel to this day is huge. Now of course, no-one gets doctors visits so it’s all level playing field 😉 and absolutely useless for ensuring people can get the care they need.

                Structural and administrative changes in the delivery of primary care for would probably do a lot more than targeted funding for wwcm. Same goes for access to secondary care where appointment times are less flexible (albeit well-signaled) – especially in these days of precarious work environments where taking time off or admitting to illness may lead people to fear job loss.

  10. Skinny 12

    The sale of Northland land to foreigner’s is really concerning to us. Yesterday Chinese interests purchased $42 million dollars worth of dairy farmers. This come on top of the exclusive luxury resort to be managed by Mike Sabin.

    “National working for foreign interests”

    In the process of organising a public rally in Northland to put pressure on the Government to put a halt to this. After yesterday’s email out from Mc Cully’s office banning National MP’s from attending Falun Gong/Dafa celebrations the chances are slim. However something needs to be done to wake Kiwi’s up.

    • Draco T Bastard 12.1

      One thing I think the Left need to agree on is a referendum on foreign ownership in NZ. Leave it to the people to decide if we should sell our nation off or not and not the politicians.

      • Colonial Rawshark 12.1.1

        Labour will not promote a referendum on foreign ownership of NZ farms and homes.

        • Murray Rawshark

          I think you’re right. There are two reasons why I think that:
          1. Labour was the party that opened up the economy to foreign ownership in the first place. According to Douglas, this would enable us to take Manhattan. Instead, we’ve been taken for a ride.

          2. Labour cannot adequately defend themselves against the inevitable accusations of racism that would follow.

          • Draco T Bastard

            Going for a referendum negates both of those as it would be Labour listening to the People rather than telling them what’s best as National are presently doing.

          • rawshark-yeshe

            I think it will be a deal breaker for NZ First in any coalition arrangement … and I can’t see Winston going with Nats ever again. jmho.

        • Draco T Bastard

          Of course they won’t as they’re still wedded to the failed neo-liberal BS. This is why they’re still losing.

  11. plumington 13

    With the fall of diary prices (orchastrated?)
    will this leave our farmers in dire need for refinance options or will they just sell up to more overseas investors ?
    If the overseas investors could crash the diary prices and then buy up the struggling farms for a song ,this would be to much of a coincidence?
    maybe our new flag should have the words vassel land or tennantsville somewhere in the mix

  12. Rodel 14

    When oh when will people see through the facade of Rock star political celebrities?

    National and Maori party $140,000,000 Whanau Ora bungle, a central element in the 2011 coalition agreement between National and the Maori party.

    The Sabin/Osbourne electoral fiasco (Can I sell you a bridge… or ten?)

    ACT’s ‘error’ in waiting 9 months to disclose Alan Gibbs donation of $32,0000-“it was a systems failure” (insert Tui ad comment here).

    Mr Key’s foolish attempt humour at a lower ranked person’s expense). The Italian media summed it up well in a newspaper headline.

    Finance minister’s never-ending promises and deficits (how many years has a surplus been promised Mr English asks Dr Cullen?).

    Parata’s school bungles – bigger classes are good, charter schools are good, spurious league tables -closing nationwide facilities for dysfunctional kids, closing good schools in Christchurch.

    We can’t tell you about TPP it’s our secret.

    Mr McCully mistakenly sending ‘don’t go to Falun Gong functions’ to all MPs instead of just his allies.

    One could go on…but Look! ..at the end of the day, what I can say, in context of course, the maladroit ineptness is becoming harder to…….Oh look is that a flag over there? CT- Shame Harry didn’t get much press-an invitation to Charlotte-now that would give people a good feeling.

  13. Draco T Bastard 15

    UN calls for suspension of TTIP talks over fears of human rights abuses

    Speaking to the Guardian, the Cuban-born US lawyer warned that the lesson from other trade agreements around the world was that major corporations had succeeded in blocking government policies with the support of secret arbitration tribunals that operated outside the jurisdiction of domestic courts.

    He said he would be compiling a report on the tactics used by multinationals to illustrate the flaws in current plans for the TTIP.

    De Zayas said: “We don’t want a dystopian future in which corporations and not democratically elected governments call the shots. We don’t want an international order akin to post-democracy or post-law.”

    The TTIP is the northern version of the TPPA and that dystopian future is what both of them are about.

    • vto 15.1

      one thing on my mind re the ability for corporates to sue governments if governments change laws and cause them to lose anticipated profits……

      …. surely means that the reverse applies too… so that if laws are changed which result in increased profits then those increased profits come to the governments

      … s u r e l y


      Or NO? If no, then the corporates get all the upside and none of the downside

      • McFlock 15.1.1

        the game is always rigged to favour the house.

        • thatguynz

          Queue Dr Mapp in 5..4..3..2..1… to rehash his well-worn (yet discredited) lines that the TPPA is only an FTA and we have absolutely nothing to worry about and are all acting like Chicken Little 🙂

          • Tracey

            He seems to avoid the topic sinc ehe was asked a few questions he couldn’t/wouldn’t answer

            If everyone is spying on everyone, and we expect t spy and be spied on by our friends, why does anyone need confidentiality of the negotiation position given everyone knows what everyone else wants through the spying?

          • vto

            Perhaps the good Dr Mapp could tell us if there is an ability for governments to recover gains from corporates if laws favourable to profit-making are passed, in the same way corporates can recover from governments if laws causing profit loss are passed, per above.

            Can’t have it both ways.

            Come in Dr Mapp….

      • RedBaronCV 15.1.2

        How would it go it our unions incorporated a company in Australia with all the union member as shareholders at 1c a share.
        Then every time the NZ government proposed anything that would have the effect of lowering wages for any union member then the Australia company could sue.

        Perhaps we could incorporate similar comapanies that could protect our enviroment etc. Fish & game and the Waitemata harbour.
        The idea of suing anti community NAct governments has some appeal.

    • joe90 15.2

      The slow march to inverted totalitarianism continues.

      We are living in a time of Inverted Totalitarianism, in which the tools used to maintain the status quo are much more subtle and technologically advanced … These include propaganda and major media outlets that hide the real news about conditions at home and our activities around the world behind distractions … Another tool is to create insecurity in the population so that people are unwilling to speak out and take risks for fear of losing their jobs … Changes in college education also silence dissent … Adjunct professors … are less willing to teach topics that are viewed as controversial. This, combined with massive student debt, are tools to silence the student population, once the center of transformative action.”


  14. Clemgeopin 16

    Parliament Questions For Oral Answer May 6, 2pm


    • i was going to do a commentary on it – but i read the questions – and almost lost the will to live..

      ..so i flagged that idea..

      as it was – the only laugh-out-loud moment of interest – was key saying that human rights in saudi arabia is ‘a little bit better’…

      ..and just going on skills displayed in the house – i find myself (disturbingly) leaning towards rightwinger shaw – as the best person to next co-lead the greens..

      ..and i am somewhat surprised by that assessment..

  15. Clemgeopin 17

    From Nate Silver’s website : UK election result prediction, updated for 5 May.


    Watch these four latest short videos from BBC about the three main leaders and the election.

  16. northshoreguynz 18

    Now this too is scary.

    Do we really want our education system totally screwed over for the sake of ideology?

    • ianmac 19.1

      Wonder how the non-payment evasion applies to NZ? As some say, the chase for the cashies is small stuff compared to the millions evaded by the big companies. An exposure of NZ companies coming here soon do you think M Chairman?

      • The Chairman 19.1.1

        @ ianmac

        I wouldn’t be surprised if it leads to further developments here.

    • Draco T Bastard 19.2

      The revelations about BHP and Rio Tinto’s Singapore adventures have left the business world dumbfounded, or just plain dumb.

      And our government keeps giving Rio Tinto subsidies.

  17. Puckish Rogue 20

    Must be tough trying to beat this:


    » 16,000 more jobs this quarter
    » 74,000 more jobs in the last year of which 60,000 are full-time
    » Labour force participation rate at new high of 69.6%
    » Unemployment rate steady at 5.8%
    » An extra 15,900 manufacturing jobs over a year ago (don’t forget the crisis!)
    » The number of hours worked have increased 9.7% over three years ago
    » Salary rates up 1.7% in last year (while inflation is just 0.1%)

    I feel for the left, it must feel like a positively herculean task when you have to counter this

    • Tracey 20.1

      “Salary rates up 1.7% in last year (while inflation is just 0.1%)”

      wage rates? Please quote the median.

      • Puckish Rogue 20.1.1

        Naah I don’t think so, I’m not going to discuss every minor, rinky-dinky meaningless detail when the point is this is what Labour is up against and unless Labours changes what it did in 2008, 2014 and 2017 it’ll be National in 2020

        The employment rate is steady and we’ve never had more kiwis in work than we have now

        Thank you John Key

        • Colonial Rawshark

          Get your head into the real world; who do you think you are fooling? Even the middle class knows that something is seriously wrong with this economy and if they don’t, their kids out there on minimum wage zero hour contracts are making it very clear to their Mums and Dads.

        • vto

          “we’ve never had more kiwis in work than we have now”

          what a silly thing to say

          “we’ve never had more people in NZ than we have now”

          ..rolly eyes

        • Pasupial


          “I’m not going to discuss every minor, rinky-dinky meaningless detail ”

          No, you’ve always been better at asserting facts than proving them. Best to stick with what you’re good at; cherry picking data to support your predetermined position. Just don’t expect anyone to pay any attention to your words.

          • Tracey

            In fairness PR will e copying and pasting. Not assessing, analysing or cherry picking. regurgitating the propaganda if you will, uncritically,

          • McFlock

            still, PR’s tactical template gives us an indication of how the median’s done against inflation 🙂

            • Tracey

              I agree, that the average is being regurgitated speaks volumes about how half the population is probably doing in their wage versus inflation/CPI

          • Puckish Rogue

            See heres the thing, quite a few of you on here think that if you bog down into the details (and post links of course, lots and lots of links) and focus on one point and then rain down tonnes of verbal garbage that the left have somehow “won” the arguement and that this will magically transform into thousands of votes

            But it won’t and it hasn’t since 2008 because you lose sight of the fact that the people of NZ arn’t listening to Labour because of messages like the one from stats and from what they see with their own eyes

            That the Greens can raise more money than Labour should tell you lot something but of course it’ll just lead to cries of public funding to, you know, level the playing field

            • Colonial Rawshark

              Nah, you’re trying to conflate multiple unrelated issues.

              Unemployment and under employment in NZ is far worse than relayed by those figures that you are so proud of.

              Labour’s problems are one of cultural mismatch and economic substance and are quite a different issue.

              • Tracey

                he isnt conflating, he is regurgitating something he has been told is good and isnt prepared to see if what he has been told is true or even the full facts.

                he does have a point tho. 49% of NZers do the same thing. Accept the manipulation and lies and are thereby duped into voting for something which is actually against the interest of some of them so voting.

            • Pasupial


              See, here’s the thing; if CR, Tracey, or McFlock were to post a link, then I might click on it, if I had the time to do so. Whereas if you posted a link (as you did comment 20), then I wouldn’t, even if I had all day free.

              I hope you are getting paid by the word. As your performance in; disheartening the Aotearoan political left who read TS, is perpetually unsuccessful.

            • McFlock

              I think you’re pretty fuck-useless at guessing what people think.

        • Tracey

          Low proportion of positions have pay increases this quarter

          Over the latest quarter, 11 percent of all salary and ordinary time wage rates increased. While the proportion of salary and wage rates increasing in a March quarter is usually low, this is the lowest proportion since the March 2010 quarter. In the year to the March 2015 quarter, 59 percent of all salary and ordinary time wage rates increased. This was unchanged from the year to the December 2014 quarter”

          So, despite us being a rock star economy with soaring GDP… wage increases in the last quarter were only given to 11% …

          funny that you (PR) and this government want people to stay away from the rinky-dink detail.

          Were the MPs salary increases in this quarter?

        • Tracey

          the unemployment rate is also steady… so despite you crowing about more people in work, the same number are essentially unemployed…. in this rock star, GDP soaring economy

          • Draco T Bastard

            Actually, if the unemployment rate stays the same with an increasing population then, in absolute terms, more people are unemployed. The number of new jobs is less than needed to reduce unemployment.

        • Tracey

          “Employed: people in the working-age population who, during the reference week, did one of the following:
          worked for one hour or more for pay or profit in the context of an employee/employer relationship or self-employment
          worked without pay for one hour or more in work which contributed directly to the operation of a farm, business, or professional practice owned or operated by a relative
           had a job but were not at work due to: own illness or injury, personal or family
          responsibilities, bad weather or mechanical breakdown, direct involvement in an industrial dispute, or leave or holiday.”

          • greywarshark

            Thanks Tracey I was looking for those terms of criteria at one time unsuccessfully.
            I didn’t realise it actually included unpaid work, and the variety of other aspects where you were counted employed though not at work.

    • Lanthanide 20.2

      Why must anyone “counter” it?

      The left will be happy about those stats. Less happy about the environmental degradation and over-reliance on agricultural exports (particularly milk).

      The point is, if the left were in charge, the numbers would be even better than these.

    • The Chairman 20.3

      Ha, unemployment rate steady at 5.8% is nothing to rave about.

      Talk about lowering the bar.

      • Colonial Rawshark 20.3.1

        Would be interested in seeing the rate if you only count people with half time or greater jobs. Not just the ones who do a couple of hours work a week.

        Also, our educational institutions have been stuffed full to the gills of people who couldn’t find work, but because they are now students (living off loans) they also do not count as “unemployed.”

    • Tracey 20.4

      “Average ordinary time hourly earnings $28.77 0.0 +2.1
      Average ordinary time weekly earnings (by FTE) $1,085.48 +0.7 +2.0”

      hmmmmmm, median would be interesting cos it would enable us to see how much of the wage/salary growth is amongst high income earners.,

      • Tracey 20.4.1

        The rise in the labour force was consistent with high growth in the working-age population. The working-age population increased 2.1 percent over the year – the largest annual percentage increase since the year to the March 2004 quarter. High net migration for the 20–34-year age groups contributed to the growing working-age population.

        And construction is helping (PR is national responsible for the CHCHCH earthquake?)

        “The largest contributions to the rise in filled jobs over the year reported by businesses from the
        QES came from:
         accommodation and food services
         professional, scientific, technical, administration, and support services
         construction.
        While the QES is better designed to give industry estimates, most self-employment is out of
        scope of the QES and therefore not reflected in growth in filled jobs. However, self-employment
        is accounted for in the HLFS. The HLFS shows that around 20 percent of people working in the
        construction industry are self-employed.
        Employment in construction remained strong in Canterbury and Auckland, with 8,600 more
        people employed in Canterbury and 6,700 more people employed in Auckland over the year. In
        total, 23,300 more people were employed in construction, accounting for 31.6 percent of total
        national employment growth.”

    • Draco T Bastard 20.5

      And yet despite all that unemploymeny is still at 5.8%. So, despite all the new jobs there’s still increasing amounts of poverty.

      • adam 20.5.1

        And that is the lie exposed right there. Thank you – Draco T Bastard.

        Poverty is increasing, food banks are stretched, people living in cars and under bridges. Child poverty off the hook, and people who are working, are the ones getting into more and more debt as each week passes.

        Puckish Rogue you are living in a statistical world of smoke and mirrors. But, hey your choice. Everyone is entitled to be a wilfully ignorant, if they choice.

  18. ScottGN 21

    Wow! Rachel Notley and the centre left NDP have swept to power in Canada’s most conservative Province, Alberta, knocking off 40+ years of Conservative majority government.

    • Tracey 21.1

      the people are able to “see” everywhere but here it seems…

      • ScottGN 21.1.1

        Change will come here too Tracey and it’s a safe bet we won’t have to wait as long as Albertans.

        • Tracey

          I hope so. I really hope so… and that we can reverse the damage

  19. arkie 22

    Another guilty rugby player escapes conviction because of the consequences it will have on his ‘professional rugby career’.


    • Draco T Bastard 22.1

      Yeah, that removal of the law for ‘special’ people is downright sickening.

      • arkie 22.1.1

        And here’s me thinking that the ‘consequences’ of conviction were there to dissuade people from committing crimes! haha

  20. Philip Ferguson 23

    IMF discovers low investment is cause of low growth – what a surprise?


  21. halfcrown 24

    Now on Sky history channel an excellent documentary for a change , called The Spirit of 45. Compulsory viewing for all right wing fuckwits They might learn something and realise if it was not for this thinking in 45 they would not here today with their rightwing fuck you Jack attitudes.

  22. North 25

    Poor old ‘Cackling Rosie’ aye ? No, not the cafe Rosie. A serious personal grievance may well pale against what’s on the horizon for Cackle. Talking putea.


    Another posturing, bad-value, over-indulged fuck to match Tugger.

    These things come in threes. What’s in store for Mutton-Lamb-Hosking ?

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