Open mike 06/06/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, June 6th, 2013 - 182 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step right up to the mike…

182 comments on “Open mike 06/06/2013 ”

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  1. Tigger 1
    6 June 2013 at 6:30 am

    Nick Smith, like so many Nats, is a bully. He’s also shortsighted.
    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10888666

    National want a quick fix for Auckland. They’re also not prepared to pay for or support the infrastructure the city needs (public transport, good intensive housing, adequate green spaces and amenities) you bozos, it’s not rocket science!)

    “The minister has warned that Aucklanders may need to sacrifice quality for affordability.”

    This is a joke. It stinks of the 1990s, the decade that gave us leaky homes. It will be a disaster and cost Auckland in the short and long term.

    National have ignored Wellington and pushed Christchurch around. Now, like a shonkey salesman they want to strong arm Auckland into one buying one white elephant after another (an unnecessary convention centre, low quality development…).

    The next year just got fascinating.

  2. logie97 2
    6 June 2013 at 7:03 am

    Charter schools are apparently perfect for this sort of pupil who is obviously failing in the state system.
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/8761374/Boy-threatens-safety-of-schoolmates.
    Would the ministry insist on him being enrolled? Yeah … naah!!

  3. vto 3
    6 June 2013 at 8:24 am

    The fact that the government is unable to pay its employees, the school teachers, because its rules and rates and regulations around employment and pay are so incredibly complex that nobody not even the government can work it out then surely that is an indicator of something, is it not?

    It is probably the biggest failure of the government, as a system, ever. It has created something it doesn’t even know how to work and gets lost in its own maze.

    It is frightfully funny and scary at the same time. Why do we give these people so much power if this is all they can achieve?

  4. Jimmie 4
    6 June 2013 at 8:39 am

    Oh the joys of living in a socialist paradise.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10888569

    I notice that Venezuela isn’t held up as a shining socialist utopia as much now as it used to be.

    I wonder why?

    • karol 4.1
      6 June 2013 at 9:30 am

      A socialist government in a capitalist world. It looks to me the rationing is the outcome of a struggle between the government’s price controls and the combination of pressures from outside the country plus businesses within the country operating on market principles.

      And, of course, one should always take an NZ Herald article on such things at face value.

    • richard 4.2
      6 June 2013 at 9:47 am

      Maybe because the article looks like a direct cut and paste from an anti-government website. Venezuela imports 70% of it’s food so the opportunities for disruption of supply by anti-government agents are huge.

      Here is a different view: Poor Utilization of the Land Behind Food Shortages in Venezuela

    • Bill 4.3
      6 June 2013 at 1:55 pm

      So Jimmie, any thoughts on why the evil dictatorship in Venezuela, you know, the one headed by that tyrant Hugo Chavez, didn’t just collapse ‘before lunchtime’ following his death?

      • Populuxe1 4.3.1
        6 June 2013 at 7:13 pm

        A miracle? Magic? Luck? The fact they still have Maduro as an interim president and there hasn’t been enough time to see what will happen?

    • Murray Olsen 4.4
      6 June 2013 at 5:24 pm

      DId you actually read that, Jimmie? It’s about a problem they have with stuff being smuggled into Colombia, a country which is the darling of the neocons. Ask yourself why things can be smuggled from Venezuela to Colombia and subsequently be sold at a profit? Maybe market forces aren’t working too well in the capitalist paradise?

      Try harder.

  5. Dv 5
    6 June 2013 at 8:39 am

    Vto the teachers were paid ok until the system shift

    • vto 5.1
      6 June 2013 at 8:42 am

      Yes I am aware of that Dv, just taking some artistic licence to poke the system in the ribs. I think the point still stands though – how can it be that hard? Why try to reinvent the wheel all the time?

      It is like pretty much all tech – slower and more comvoluted. Ever queued behind people paying by eftpos compared to cash? Is it actually quicker to pay by internet banking than writing and posting a cheque?

      It’s all a con. A con I tell ya….

      Go the pen and paper!

  6. TheContrarian 6
    6 June 2013 at 8:44 am

    Nice going morons, banning one of the top 10 public health advancements of the last 100 years.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/8761398/Health-officials-alarmed-as-fluoridation-voted-out

    • David H 6.1
      6 June 2013 at 8:49 am

      Well at least the Dentists will be happy. And as someone who was born in England before the introduction on Fluoride into the water there. I have paid for it, both in monetary terms, and in bad teeth

      • TheContrarian 6.1.1
        6 June 2013 at 8:51 am

        I am sure Muzza will be pleased but I am unhappy that conspiracy theory and anti-science have trumped public health.

        • muzza 6.1.1.1
          6 June 2013 at 12:29 pm

          I think you might find, as I mentioned yesterday, http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-05062013/#comment-643987
          the Scandinavians banned it a long time ago, and based on that alone, given they are far ahead of the anglo-file idiots, is enough for me to accept that its the right decision.

          I’ll take their position, over people who share yours, every day of the week!!!

          Dr. Arvid Carlsson, won the Nobel Prize in Medicine/Physiology in 2000 for his research on neurotransmitters in the brain. In a 2005 interview, Dr. Arvid Carlsson noted that “fluoridation is against all modern principles of pharmacology. It’s obsolete. I don’t think anybody in Sweden, not a single dentist, would bring up this question anymore.”

          TC – Anti science, you mate, are poorly read, as anyone else who foolishly believe, mass medication, is the reason their teeth are good or bad or otherwise!

          Answer this – What percentage of the western world, adds flouride to its water supply, and what percentage of NZ towns/cities do the same?

          • TheContrarian 6.1.1.1.1
            6 June 2013 at 1:30 pm

            here you go:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoridation_by_country

            But what’s your point?

            “you mate, are poorly read”

            Nope on this I am very well read.

            • muzza 6.1.1.1.1.1
              6 June 2013 at 2:08 pm

              My point is its being removed faster than nations/towns/cities are adding the poison to the water supplies, including in NZ!

              Ill take the Scandinavians reasoning for removing it, over your position for adding/leaving it, all day long , champ!

              You got a sales pitch, as to why I wouldn’t?

              Edit- do they have flouride in the water where you live?

              If no – are you out lobbying to get it added, or are you simply chewing on loads of topical application toothpaste, taking note of the, do not swallow, medical warning, to ensure you get enough of the poison into your system!

              • TheContrarian …
                6 June 2013 at 2:19 pm

                “My point is its being removed faster than nations/towns/cities are adding the poison to the water supplies”

                In the quantities added it is not poisonous which is confirmed by every major medical and public health body.

                There has never been a correlation between water fluoridation and major public health problems.

                • Ugly Truth …
                  6 June 2013 at 8:28 pm

                  “In the quantities added it is not poisonous which is confirmed by every major medical and public health body.”

                  Another statement of faith, Contrarian?

              • Murray Olsen …
                6 June 2013 at 5:52 pm

                Does non-fluoridated toothpaste also have a “do not swallow” warning? The tube I’ve got is fluoridated, so I can’t check.

                • cardassian …
                  6 June 2013 at 7:53 pm

                  My non-fluoridated toothpaste doesn’t say not to swallow. Please note I don’t use it because I’m against fluoride but because it’s the only no animal testing toothpaste I can get locally.

          • Populuxe1 6.1.1.1.2
            6 June 2013 at 7:18 pm

            Funny how mention of vaccination, iodisation or fluoridisation suddenly turns the most hardened left wing Commissar into a screaming Libertarian. Suddenly it’s all about the patriarchal middle class white privileges of “choice” and “personal responsibility” and never a flying fuck for underprivileged children who benefit from such public health programmes.

            • ghostrider888 6.1.1.1.2.2
              6 June 2013 at 8:25 pm

              oddly, not really, I’m with you two; let ‘the middle class’ check ‘their’ privilege (and consume all the ‘fluoridated’ foods they can afford.

              • Descendant Of Sssmith …
                6 June 2013 at 8:39 pm

                I support both fluoridation and vaccination and I’m left.

                Funnily those I know who are opposed are firmly right ( as opposed to left ) in their views. They complain of fluoridation as part of the nanny state complex. They are quite clear that if you teeth rot it’s your own damn fault and would have the poor chose between toothpaste or food.

                Of course we all know the patriachal daddy state is much much worse and we are seeing that unfold in real time.

                I’m not sure how you can assume the anti-fluoride brigade are left in any way shape or form.

                • lprent …
                  6 June 2013 at 8:48 pm

                  Ditto. You only have to read history to see the benefits to the public from the public health risk factors in a society that it eliminates. Sure all of these techniques have individual risk factors – the ones that the rather than scare blogs highlight.

                  But if people are really concerned about those then I’d suggest concentrating those of like anti-vaccination mind together and running a trial to see what the effects are when they aren’t freeloading on the rest of the populations immunity.

                  Alternatively they could band together financially to do the R&D to find a viable public health alternative. Say about a thousand per year as an involuntary contribution put in a R&D fund. We will call it a fine?

                  Anything to show that they are trying to do something about what they see as an issue rather than simply ignoring the statistical benefits to the whole population rather than the individual disadvantages to them and theirs.

                  Of course extending criminal manslaughter charges related to those that they infect and kill might work as well. No different to drunk driving as far as I can see.

                  • ghostrider888 …
                    6 June 2013 at 9:01 pm

                    btw, there are some other dietary sources of Fluoride linked below; jolly stuff is everywhere, Oh no! What to nibble on while awaiting that file. 😀 (read Coleridge, or Watch).

                    • lprent …
                      6 June 2013 at 9:55 pm

                      Of course fluorine is kind of chemically clingy so you find low levels of it through almost everything naturally – usually as some kind of fluoride. Humans probably require it because we did quite a lot of our developmental evolution doing garbage collection near seashores where there are adequate amounts of it. But we kind of spread into many other places in the world where it was rarer both in water and in diets and where humans found they had health issues because of that. It is much the same as salt was an issue as we moved inland. The old prehistoric salt trade routes were pretty extensive.

                      When they fluoridate water supplies, they don’t use the same concentrations everywhere. That is because they’re boosting the level of the existing fluoride in the environment up to the level that we naturally require. Yes there may be ill-effects if people overdose on it or are particularly susceptible to to it because of genetics, growth phase, or interactions with the other chemicals in our personal chemical composition (ie we are naturally just a mix of chemicals – mostly dihydride oxide). But the health risks of having rotting teeth are invariably a *lot* higher.

                      If you don’t wish to participate in the public health measure, then you are perfectly entitled to figure out how to pay for avoiding the mass public health provisions. Moving to where you can use a roof tank is probably the best idea. Unlike skipping vaccinations defluoridation of your diet is unlikely to harm others.

                    • ghostrider888 …
                      6 June 2013 at 10:06 pm

                      yes, (being the deep well of research that you are Lynn), infections of the gum can be very unpleasant, lead to complications, and Might Just Take Your Life.

                  • muzza …
                    6 June 2013 at 10:52 pm

                    freeloading on the rest of the populations immunity.

                    Truly, and utterly contemptuously, the most pathetic argument, ever, is that!

                    • lprent …
                      7 June 2013 at 1:32 am

                      Accurate though and I notice that you don’t deal with the public health aspect. Perhaps you haven’t bothered to study it in your narcissistic libertarian pursuits.

                      There is a reason that almost of the diseases that were endemic when I was a kid (and which I caught) are now quite rare. In fact the rare cases that do show up as an outbreak that do show up are often reported as news. Quite unlike when I was a kid.

                      The food is no different. The water, sewerage, and waste disposal systems are pretty much the same. The human populations haven’t suffered the levels of deaths that are required to leave a much smaller but more resistant population (ie what happened with the black death in europe or the smallpox and measles in south america). The diseases themselves without treatment are just as virulent as they were, and probably more so. We’re better at preventing them from killing and maiming if they are treated early.

                      There is exactly one reason that these diseases are no longer causing occasional deaths, frequent maiming and massive productivity losses across the whole population. That is because they no longer have enough susceptible hosts in the human population of this country to cause outbreaks. The reason for that is that most of the possible hosts either had the diseases in their youth like me and are now resistant, or they had (like me with polio) a *vaccine* that induced resistance. That protected not only myself from the pain that Margaret Wilson and others of the previous generation have had to live with throughout their lives, but also protected everyone else around me.

                      But vaccinations are not perfect. People have varying levels of resistance after vaccinations. So they provide only a *partial* protection for any one person. They just make it harder for diseases to get a foothold. If the surrounding population has a large infected and carrier population then the disease will have a high rate of speciation. Even people who are resistant to a disease will get the sick from new variants.

                      So vaccinations are only really effective if the whole population is made resistant as a whole community. This pushes the recombination rate of a disease well down because it has a much more limited population for those lucky “accidents” that change their genome. Those libertarians (like yourself) who are so individualistic that they don’t think about the risks they are putting on everyone else provide potential reservoirs for disease populations to speciate and produce new virulent variations.

                      So as I said, if you don’t vaccinate in a public health program for whatever reason, then you should be isolated and live with those others who also do not. Or pay in some other way for your individualistic stupidity. You are freeloading on the carefully built up resistances in the community and effectively wasting the resources put into the programmes both now and into the future.

                      Personally I think that any case where the disease DNA is matched (the populations speciation varies infections and can be traced with a high degree of probability) from a unvaccinated; and where it causes injury or death, then it should be treated as a criminal matter like drunken driving. That is a offense where the legal test of mens rea is severely diminished compared the mens actus.

                      It doesn’t matter what your intent was. The mere act of not vaccinating (or drinking) before getting the disease and passing it others (or driving while drunk and crashing into someone) provides the most of the requirement for a legal intent to cause injury to others. It makes you as much of danger to your community as it would if your were a habitual drunk who likes to drive.

                      That is an argument that is quite separate to the question of if a particular brand of vaccination or car is safe to use – which is all that I have seen you argue..

                • ghostrider888 …
                  6 June 2013 at 8:56 pm

                  well, last time I checked, I was pretty “far left” and I support the Public Health initiatives you identify (love the pic Contrarian); now, according to the wonderful Wendyl Nissen, our natural diet has plenty of fluoride as well; here we go
                  Foods highest in fluoride lots of fruit and veges in there! (oh, and merlot) 😀

                  • Descendant Of Sssmith …
                    6 June 2013 at 9:21 pm

                    A few years back quite a few Auckland righties got their knickers in a twist about iodine. A few of em getting goitre sorted that out.

                    I know one switching to sea salt sufferer and she basically lost her voice for a few years.

                    Half the problem with the young un’s these days is that the victims of many of these diseases just aren’t around. Growing up we knew people with polio, children brain damaged by rubella, many of our parents no longer had their own teeth in their 30’s and 40’s and so on. We’ve seen some of our peers get post-polio syndrome and seen their muscle tissue waste away in their fifties.

                    People older than me would have known even more of these people.

                    • Clockie …
                      6 June 2013 at 9:30 pm

                      Just so…

                    • weka …
                      6 June 2013 at 9:42 pm

                      On the other hand, in that time we’ve also seen an increase in heart disease, diabetes, cancer and chronic illness generally that belies the idea that we always get it right when it comes to the health of the population.

                    • Descendant Of Sssmith …
                      6 June 2013 at 9:57 pm

                      Much of the numerical increase is logically due to an increase in population and some due to an ageing population.

                      Urbanisation brings it’s own woes as well.

                      The biggest factors in my view is the removal of weekends for families to be together, people to have a break from working, to have time to be part of their communities and play sport etc.

                      The over commercialisation of food with it’s added sugar and salt esp is a big problem. There’s quite a good doco somewhere about the sugar companies influence in ensuring that the maximum recommended level of sugar in food was not put into WHO guidelines as recommended by the scientists behind the guidelines – including a New Zealander. That limit if imposed would reduce significantly the amount of processed sugar in foods and we’d all be much healthier.

                      Evolutionary wise we are designed to store the rare amount of sugar we would have come across and equally meat we would only have eaten if we caught it.

                      Millions of years of evolution say less meat,less sugar and less salt. We have all three available in abundance.

                    • weka …
                      6 June 2013 at 11:33 pm

                      Sure Ssssmith. I’m just pointing out that public health doesn’t always get it right, and neither does scientific consensus. And sometimes individuals do despite that.

                      Try this for an obvious example (which fits nicely with your thoughts on sugar).

                      http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/07/magazine/what-if-it-s-all-been-a-big-fat-lie.html?pagewanted=print&src=pm

                      and note that alongside the research, there are swathes of people now adjusting their diets based on rejection of the fat hypothesis and finding significant improvements in their health. Those improvements will be written off as anecdotal, and it will take decades for the research to filter through and influence public health policy. I suspect that eventually public pressure will mean the research gets done more quickly, but at the moment there are too many vested interests.

                      What I’m suggesting here is a more nuanced approach than the ‘there is a scientific consensus so it must be true’ approach.

                      btw, I agree with much of what you say about diet and lifestyle, except for the meat bit. We know that there some cultures thrive on high meat diets, with good health outcomes (and little heart disease).

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      6 June 2013 at 11:42 pm

                      The orthodoxy likes to pretend it is “scientific” but really that is just another belief complex system, one where adherence marks those who are the “in crowd” and those who practice or speak differently as “other”.

                      Once someone delves into how the original food pyramid and follow up farm bills were constructed by industry lobby groups, and promulgated by the medical profession ad nauseaum, it becomes very hard to take anything presented by these authorities at face value.

                      EDIT

                      ahhhh frak, waddya know. Phosphate rock used to create fertilisers used in NZ are a major source of fluoride additives for water. Maybe this explains why our food chain is contaminated with fluoride.

                      Sources of Fluoride Additives

                      Most fluoride additives used in the United States are produced from phosphorite rock. Phosphorite is used primarily in the manufacture of phosphate fertilizer. Phosphorite contains calcium phosphate mixed with limestone (calcium carbonates) minerals and apatite—a mineral with high phosphate and fluoride content. It is refluxed (heated) with sulfuric acid to produce a phosphoric acid-gypsum (calcium sulfate-CaSO4) slurry.

                      The heating process releases hydrogen fluoride (HF) and silicon tetrafluoride (SiF4) gases which are captured by vacuum evaporators. These gases are then condensed to a water-based solution of 23% FSA with the remainder as water.

                      Approximately 95% of FSA used for water fluoridation comes from this process. The remaining 5% of FSA is generated during the manufacture of hydrogen fluoride or from the use of hydrogen fluoride in the manufacturing of solar panels and electronics.

                  • rosy …
                    6 June 2013 at 9:51 pm

                    +1 DoSsss, Ghost and all re left and public health.

                    I do wonder about the foods highest in fluoride – If we stopped adding fluoride to the water in places where it doesn’t occur naturally, would the fruit and veg from these places have lower levels of fluoride in them? Have there been comparisons between produce from the ‘has’ and ‘hasn’t’ got fluoride areas?

      • Lanthanide 6.1.2
        6 June 2013 at 8:59 am

        Actually dentists are unhappy. Sure, they want to make a buck, but I suspect most of their profits come from expensive adult-type surgeries, not fillings for kids (who are a pain to deal with, I’m sure).

      • prism 6.1.3
        6 June 2013 at 9:58 am

        DavidH
        I liked the Spike Milligan comment on British teeth. He came to Britain after having been in India where people’s teeth apparently were better. He said that the people in the streets had teeth that looked like Merry Xmas written in Gothic or something like that.

    • BM 6.2
      6 June 2013 at 8:50 am

      Shows what a complete farce local body politics are
      In 2006 there was a binding referendum held in Hamilton about fluoridation, the result was overwhelming to keep fluoridation.
      Completely undemocratic decision by the Hamilton council, these individuals represent no one but themselves.

      • Ugly Truth 6.2.1
        6 June 2013 at 9:00 am

        A democratic decision based on ignorance is still an ignorant decision.

        The earliest occurrence of fluoridated drinking water on Earth was found in Russia’s gulags and then Germany’s Nazi prison camps.

        “Using the fluoride in the water supplies in their gulags (concentration camps), to make the prisoners stupid, docile, and subservient.” ~ The Crime and Punishment of I. G. Farben by Joseph Borkin

        The Canadian father of water fluoridation was the president of the eugenics society of Canada.

        http://canadianawareness.org/2012/03/water-fluoridation-directly-linked-to-eugenics/

        • TheContrarian 6.2.1.1
          6 June 2013 at 9:10 am

          ““Using the fluoride in the water supplies in their gulags (concentration camps), to make the prisoners stupid, docile, and subservient.””

          Which is why everywhere they fluoridate water the people become stupid, docile, and subservient..oh wait, that’s right – they don’t.

          The only difference between communities with fluoridated water and non-fluoridated are the levels of tooth decay.

          “The earliest occurrence of fluoridated drinking water on Earth was found in Russia’s gulags and then Germany’s Nazi prison camps.”

          Bullshit.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_water_fluoridation

        • prism 6.2.1.2
          6 June 2013 at 10:05 am

          UT
          Can you find any more facts? to damn fluoride in drinking water. They are talking about a measured dose, it must be appropriate for the health of the people. Referring to torture camps where the authorities have no concern about their prisoners wellbeing is not a controlled test. It also is insulting to our population and our authorities to imply that they would behave and we would be subject to, such callous and uncaring treatment.

          • TheContrarian 6.2.1.2.1
            6 June 2013 at 10:46 am

            If fluoride was really being used by governments to pacify and dull the populace you gotta wonder the logic behind fluoridating their own water:

            http://www.dcwater.com/waterquality/faqs.cfm

          • muzza 6.2.1.2.2
            6 June 2013 at 12:40 pm

            Prism, mass medication is NEVER acceptable, and the terminology of measured dose, is an oxymoron!

            Human reaction to any medication, will vary from individual to individual. Why do you think western medics, ask *what else are you taking*.

            Why might they ask that!

            Talk of measured doses, en masse, is the stuff of lunacy – The scandinavians understand this concept, and they lead the world in looking after their people, based on knowledge/science/education and understanding. If the Scandinavians have removed it from their water supplies, there is very good cause, that we should be copying them!

            I understand you are looking for more info, as you’re one of the more pragmatic commentators on here. My response is not designed to get at you, I’m pointing out some rather basic, principles!

            • prism 6.2.1.2.2.1
              6 June 2013 at 12:59 pm

              muzza
              Stop being so precious. We wouldn’t be here typing probably without the benefit of controls on bacteria and health-diminishing processes.

              Sorry about being rude to your well-written post but I just get sick of the scare tactics of those who are negative about improvements that offer advantages if done in a reasonable way.

              • TheContrarian …
                6 June 2013 at 1:42 pm

                Muzza also forgets that the council overturned a binding referendum in which the people voted to keep fluoridation.

              • muzza …
                6 June 2013 at 2:16 pm

                Prism, its not scare tactics, nor am I being precious.

                Adding a toxic by-product to water supplies, removing the right of many people to choose, NOT to injest the posion, is simply a ridiculous scenario to defend!

                TC below, attempts to conflate with talk of salt, and overturned referendums.

                I’m not talking about the referndum, and the human body requires salt, it does NOT require flouride, to function!

                • TheContrarian …
                  6 June 2013 at 2:21 pm

                  We are adding iodine to salt. That’s mass medication too.

                  “Adding a toxic by-product to water supplies, removing the right of many people to choose, NOT to injest the posion, is simply a ridiculous scenario to defend!”

                  The people did choose, you idiot. They voted to keep it.

                  • muzza …
                    6 June 2013 at 2:57 pm

                    No , TC. I’m not even talking about the referendum/Hamilton, I have explained that already!

                    For example, we in AKL, have not had a referendum, nor do locations around the world, that have the posion added into the water, and who may not have a choice other than to injest it, because its a necessity of life!

                    Your iodine argument, is poor, as is your avoidance of the questions.

                    True to form, you ignore!

                    I can see right through you, TC, its rather easy!

                    • TheContrarian …
                      6 June 2013 at 3:03 pm

                      “No , TC. I’m not even talking about the referendum/Hamilton, I have explained that already!”

                      Errr, no you didn’t. The council overturned the wishes of the people who wanted to keep it. So in the Hamilton case, the people made their preference clear.

                      “Your iodine argument, is poor…”

                      No, it’s exactly the same. Everytime you salt your food, you medicate yourself.

                      “as is your avoidance of the questions.”

                      What questions haven’t I answered?

                      Why don’t actually address some points i.e. on public health, about how every major public health body and international organisation agree that fluoridation is advantageous to public health and that there have been no major public health problems with water fluoridation? Instead of just making weird hand-waving comments and no addressing a single item of contention.

                    • muzza …
                      6 June 2013 at 3:14 pm

                      TC – Mine from above – The questions you ignored!

                      You got a sales pitch, as to why I wouldn’t? (Listen to the Scandinavians)

                      Edit- do they have flouride in the water where you live?

                      If no – are you out lobbying to get it added, or are you simply chewing on loads of topical application toothpaste, taking note of the, do not swallow, medical warning, to ensure you get enough of the poison into your system?

                      Your contention

                      Why don’t actually address some points i.e. on public health, about how every major public health body and international organisation agree that fluoridation is advantageous to public health and that there have been no major public health problems with water fluoridation?

                      Point me to where *every major public health body & internatioanl organisation agree….*

                      You’re trying to tell us how safe it is, you prove it, and while you’re at it, lobby the Scandinavians, to add it back in to their water supply, clearly the people of those nations, are missing the benefit of all that anglo-moron pseudo, corrupted, public health body and international organisation evidence, you refer to, lap up, swallow and support!

                      Go on, see if you can make a case for them, that leads to a change to their policy!

                    • TheContrarian …
                      6 June 2013 at 3:34 pm

                      It isn’t my job to lobby the Scandinavians. I live in NZ.

                      Yes, Wellingtons water is fluoridated.

                      “every major public health body & international organisation agree…”

                      The CDC
                      The UN
                      The WHO
                      The American Medical Association

                      and so forth, and so forth.

                      Your turn:

                      So, why don’t actually address some points i.e. on public health, about how every major public health body and international organisation agree that fluoridation is advantageous to public health and that there have been no major public health problems with water fluoridation?

                    • Clockie …
                      6 June 2013 at 9:09 pm

                      Iodine is very nearly as toxic as fluoride from what I can make out. depending on exactly which forms you’re talking about. We have mass medicated with iodised salt all my life, over half a century, but I couldn’t tell exactly when it was introduced. It’s a very similar issue of mass medication for the good of public health.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodine#Toxicity

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      6 June 2013 at 9:16 pm

                      Over last 100 years, intelligence falling, aspergers/autism/ADHD skyrocketing, move on please folks nothing to see here.

                    • ghostrider888 …
                      6 June 2013 at 9:24 pm

                      there may be more environmental factors than food at play indicated in the expansion of those spectrums Colonel.

                      “When i was just a little boy, I asked my mother what will I be, will I be pretty, will I be rich, here’s what she commanded me…” 😉

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      6 June 2013 at 9:45 pm

                      Oh no doubt. TV before the age of 3 too 😉

                      (and you think I’m kidding)

                    • muzza …
                      6 June 2013 at 10:10 pm

                      The CDC
                      The UN
                      The WHO
                      The American Medical Association

                      and so forth, and so forth.

                      And you complained to Ugly Truth that the N*zi argument carried no weight, why would you believe the entities above are not simply the same ideology wrapped up in pretty labels, fooling mugs lik yourself – Next you will be quoting the FDA, saying that you hoover up E951, because they passed it as acceptable to injest by human beings – Thanks Donald Fumsfeld for that one, fyi!

                      Your turn:

                      So, why don’t actually address some points i.e. on public health, about how every major public health body and international organisation agree that fluoridation is advantageous to public health and that there have been no major public health problems with water fluoridation?

                      Same answer as above – UN, WHO, CDC – Same people as WTO, IMF, UNESCO, World Bank, and other corrupted, thieving, murderous criminal entities.

                      *Every Major international organisation* – Is that what the list you provided is? Oops, I think the words *every & major*, were hyperboles bro, and that list means approximately nothing to me, as I said, youre selling the poison, I’m happy for it not to be in the water, the human body does not need it, so the onus on evidence lies with your camp, to prove benefits, and safety, sonny jim!

                      In any case, drink it up, swallow the toothpaste, take it all into your system, gargles it, swallow it, bath in it actually, it matters not!

                      Ignore CV’s comments too, nothing to see there, kids are just unlucky these days, throw some more prescription medicine at them, maybe a few more of them, there shots!, that will straighten them out!

                    • ghostrider888 …
                      6 June 2013 at 11:56 pm

                      on the subject of children’s exposure to media, there was a brief article on te News concerning infants interacting with i-pads; the footage displayed the infants in question prefering the gadget to their primary care-giver when ‘summoned’, a Strange Situation Test indeed; I T has begun Skywalker. (artricle stated no research has been conducted into long-term effects; “…we can rebuild him, we have the technology OSCAR). 😉

                    • TheContrarian …
                      7 June 2013 at 8:51 am

                      So Muzza, still no statistics, no links, no correlation of health problems between fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities?

                      No actual evidence of harm, just throwing out comments about the WTo and World Bank (for some weird reason).

                      You got nuthin, son

                • prism …
                  6 June 2013 at 2:40 pm

                  muzza
                  I can’t resist nit picking. It’s fluoride right. And the fluoride is added in small doses. Too much of anything can be toxic and when it is something that requires strict controls for safety like fluoride then they are applied and then the benefits occur.

                  And then the scare mongers stop and find something else to cogitate about, and there are plenty more really important new things to crusade about. It would be great if anti-fluoride and anti-vaccine people could find a new bandwagon and high-tail it off into the setting sun.

                  • muzza …
                    6 June 2013 at 3:03 pm

                    Don’t nit pick Prism, its too important a subject , for such flippancy!

                    You’re a believer in the *strict controls for safety*. yet you can’t see how flawed that statement is, so until you can understand the issue, leave such subjects alone!

                    How much raditation, of certian isotops, are safe for the human body, just because some governing body *says so*!

                    Your dismissal of poisons, which are scientifically known to build up inside the brain, and be toxic on the body, is as brazenly ridiculous, as the fact you have merged it with the subject of, *anti vaccine people*. (The give away of Prisms bias, right there)!

                    More important issues, than the poisoning of human beings.

                    Prism, you are a fool, in this instance, and your showing your old school thinking, is past it on certain subject matter!

                    • TheContrarian …
                      6 June 2013 at 3:07 pm

                      Once again, the amounts present in drinking water has never been shown to cause any public health problems.

                      If you think otherwise evidence is required. Chop, chop.

                    • prism …
                      6 June 2013 at 5:27 pm

                      Thanks muzza for your very extensive analysis of me and summary.
                      I think the same of you. So guess we are locking horns like a couple of rutting deer – such flippancy.

                      I think people like yourself are getting confused by the plethora of things to understand in a modern scientific era. You are the one showing your old school thinking which is to be ready to believe any emotional argument and scare tactic instead of to apply yourself as an individual to the argument for the positives which far outweigh the negatives.

                • Populuxe1 …
                  6 June 2013 at 3:48 pm

                  What, like the highly toxic chlorine that prevents us all catching typhoid? You, sir, are a prize nob.

                  • prism …
                    6 June 2013 at 5:30 pm

                    Pop Hi I didn’t know when I read of popups on my screen that it was you doing it all. I miss you when you don’t turn up.

            • TheContrarian 6.2.1.2.2.2
              6 June 2013 at 1:32 pm

              “mass medication is NEVER acceptable”

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iodised_salt

            • Draco T Bastard 6.2.1.2.2.3
              6 June 2013 at 7:19 pm

              Human reaction to any medication, will vary from individual to individual. Why do you think western medics, ask *what else are you taking*.

              Why might they ask that!

              Probably because the drugs may react with each other. Cleaning compounds have a warning on them not to mix with other cleaning compounds for the same reason.

              The scandinavians…

              You keep mentioning them but you still haven’t produced any research showing that putting fluoride in water is bad for us.

            • Populuxe1 6.2.1.2.2.4
              6 June 2013 at 7:31 pm

              Filthy Libertard! How dare your individual liberty impinge on the common good!

          • Ugly Truth 6.2.1.2.3
            6 June 2013 at 6:37 pm

            “Can you find any more facts?”

            Chemist Charles Eliot Perkins documented the Nazi use of flouride.
            Dr. Phyllis Mullenix investigated the toxicology of flouride and pushblished her work in the Journal of Neurotoxicology and Teratology. She then lost her job.

            “Studies in mainstream peer-reviewed medical journals and government reports now document the fact that serious harms are associated with exposure to small amounts of fluoride-including hip fracture, cancer, and intellectual impairment. ” ~ David Hill

            http://www.fluoridation.com/calgaryh.htm

            “It also is insulting to our population and our authorities to imply that they would behave and we would be subject to, such callous and uncaring treatment.”

            You are assuming that they are in full possession of the facts.

            • TheContrarian 6.2.1.2.3.1
              6 June 2013 at 6:56 pm

              “You are assuming that they are in full possession of the facts.”

              They get their info from the CDC, WHO etc etc. Who are pretty well know for their access to factual information.

              “The Nazi’s used therefore bad” is not an argument.

              David Hill is going against the mainstream, well documented and well tested science. There is still no correlation of public health issues between non fluoridated and fluoridated areas.

              • Ugly Truth …
                6 June 2013 at 7:04 pm

                “David Hill is going against the mainstream, well documented and well tested science.”

                Wrong. Here are his references (from http://www.fluoridation.com/calgaryh.htm):

                CALGARY HEALTH SERVICES (undated-some time in the 80s) Dental Hygiene Unit. Science Teaching Unit (originally for Science 25 and later used in similar classes) (back to main text)

                CALGARY HEALTH SERVICES (1989) Focus on fluoridation Calgary Herald Oct 8th (back to main text)

                CARTON RJ (1993) Affidavit of Dr. Robert J. Carton in support of motion for summary judgement. Case No. 92 CV 579 Safe Water Foundation vs. City of Fond du Lac, State of Wisconsin Circuit Court, Fond du Lac County, Feb 10th (back to main text)

                [deleted]

                [lprent: It isn’t original thought with you so you already did everything you needed to do when you linked to it. If you are going to quote from it, then a short clearly marked quote is all that is required (like I just did for you) is all that is required. A comment from you explaining why you think people should go down the link is helpful.

                Don’t waste any more of my time cleaning up behind you after you violate the policy about copy-paste. I tend to get irritated about it. ]

                • TheContrarian …
                  6 June 2013 at 7:11 pm

                  Nice list, but so what?

                  The overwhelming consensus is against Hill’s conclusion (from 1997 I might add – nearly 20 years old) and some of his references date back to the 1940’s.

                  • Ugly Truth …
                    6 June 2013 at 7:20 pm

                    “Nice list, but so what?”
                    So you have no clue what “mainstream, well documented and well tested science” is. Here’s a hint: it’s not consensus, either.

                    • TheContrarian …
                      6 June 2013 at 7:23 pm

                      “So you have no clue what “mainstream, well documented and well tested science” is. Here’s a hint: it’s not consensus, either.”

                      Yeah, I do. This paper is extremely out of date and completely out of step with the majority of research worldwide.

                    • Populuxe1 …
                      6 June 2013 at 7:34 pm

                      Isn’t that what climate change deniers also say?

                    • Ugly Truth …
                      6 June 2013 at 7:45 pm

                      Populuxel, yes flouride and AGW are similar issues.

                      Contrarian, put up or shut up.

                    • Populuxe1 …
                      6 June 2013 at 7:56 pm

                      Yes, well I have a similarly low opinion of global warming deniers…
                      and anti-abortionists, anti-vaccinationists, anti-fluoridationists, anti-iodinists, creationists, flat earthers, fundementalist religious types and every other example of head-up-your-arse fringe voodoo quackery

                    • Colonial Viper …
                      6 June 2013 at 8:27 pm

                      So since you have it so right you must be a glowing healthy specimen of manhood

                    • Ugly Truth …
                      6 June 2013 at 8:30 pm

                      “and every other example of head-up-your-arse fringe voodoo quackery”

                      Like denial of the existence of the eugenics movement, you mean?

                    • muzza …
                      6 June 2013 at 10:17 pm

                      So since you have it so right you must be a glowing healthy specimen of manhood

                      Unlikely, you can read the state of health via words, quite easily in fact!

                    • TheContrarian …
                      7 June 2013 at 8:53 am

                      “Contrarian, put up or shut up.”

                      What? What the fuck do i have to ‘put up’?

                      You have asked for anything, you idiot.

    • Ben 6.3
      6 June 2013 at 9:49 am

      Absolute madness.

  7. Observer (Tokoroa) 7
    6 June 2013 at 8:49 am

    Hi VTO

    Yes. Paying accurate wages to employees is something that is done all around the world. The complexity of professional pays is also a fact of life all around the world.

    Only the current New Zealand Government seems to stuff things up so woefully.

  8. mickysavage 8
    6 June 2013 at 8:49 am

    The funding for Mangere Budgeting Service has just been and they are having to make redundant 5 of their 8 staff. This is at a time when applications for a special grant from WINZ is met with a requirement that applicants get budgeting advice. Of course according to this Government poverty is the result of bad budgeting and not a lack of resources.

    Head of the Mangere Budgeting Service Darryl Evans is outspoken about poverty and I wonder if he has been targeted. Paula Bennett is claiming that there is extra funds for budgeting in the latest budget but it does not appear to be making its way to the MBS. I suspect that the claim of an increase is just smoke and mirrors.

    To really add insult to injury Bennett is saying that the Service gets more now than it did under Labour in 2008. She has obviously forgotten that unemployment then was half of the level that it is now and there was no compulsion to receive budgeting advice.

    The report is at http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/136952/south-auckland-budget-service-cuts-staff

    • Lanthanide 8.1
      6 June 2013 at 9:05 am

      “The funding for Mangere Budgeting Service has just been [WHAT?] and they are having to make redundant 5…”

      Looks like you missed a word out there. If you were going to say “cut”, you are wrong, as their funding has been increased, the problem is that they were already running at a large deficit and the funding increase isn’t enough to meet their needs.

      “Paula Bennett is claiming that there is extra funds for budgeting in the latest budget but it does not appear to be making its way to the MBS. I suspect that the claim of an increase is just smoke and mirrors.”

      Their funding has been increased by $45,000. Unfortunately they were already in deficit by $155,000. So now they get government funding of $317,000 a year, which is kinda difficult to employ 8 people on for a demanding service such as this, when you also consider overheads like insurance, rent, electricity, office supplies, computers etc.

      • mickysavage 8.1.1
        6 June 2013 at 9:38 am

        Oops I meant to say CUT.

        And right you are Lanth. They have received an increase of $45k but have a shortfall of $155k.

        • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1
          6 June 2013 at 10:43 am

          Simply unbelievable.

          • s y d 8.1.1.1.1
            6 June 2013 at 12:12 pm

            hardly a ringing endorsement for their service

            • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1.1.1
              6 June 2013 at 3:26 pm

              what part of “underfunded” do you not understand?

              Same with so many families out there. The basic situation is that their benefits are insufficient to live on, and no number of spreadsheets will change that.

  9. Lanthanide 9
    6 June 2013 at 9:01 am

    Anyone wondering why Kim Hill is on Morning Report, here’s the press release:
    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1305/S00436/kim-hill-returns-to-morning-report.htm

    I can’t recall this ever happening before; hosts have gone on leave for 2-3 weeks and been replaced by other presenters, sometimes in a bit of an ad-hoc manner. I suspect in this case Geoff has taken a ‘break’ for something health related so they wanted to do something a bit more formal for his absence.

    • xtasy 9.1
      6 June 2013 at 9:33 am

      Perhaps the other senior person usually on RNZ Morning Report is having his annual leave?

      • Lanthanide 9.1.1
        6 June 2013 at 10:52 am

        Yes, it’s possible he’s ‘just on annual leave’, but as I mentioned in my comment, in the past people have gone on annual leave and they haven’t put out special press releases and have managed on just fine with their small roster of stand-ins. Geoff’s also in his 80s, 82 I believe, so it’s not too much of a reach to guess that maybe it’s more than ‘just on annual leave’.

    • ianmac 9.2
      6 June 2013 at 10:20 am

      Kim certainly asks the questions. She is very direct and insistent. She has a very strong bullshit detector and shows no mercy to anyone in Public Office. Be interesting if she gets to interview (not available) Mr Key.

      • Lanthanide 9.2.1
        6 June 2013 at 11:00 am

        Yes, her interview with Catherine Isaac yesterday was very good, with Kim insisting that Isaac actually did strongly personally believe in Charter Schools, therefore she expected answers and not fob-off “read the legislation” answers that Isaac tried to give.

      • Tiger Mountain 9.2.2
        6 June 2013 at 2:06 pm

        Kim Hill played a magnificent role in the 90s day after day on air battling duplicitous politicians, particularly the dirty NZ1 tight five and certain tory ministers and helped usher in one way or another a change of government. I never begrudged her the sweet Sat morning spot because of her efforts then.

        Hope she is back to stay, and it would be good to see her reduce ShonKey to the gibbering idiot the electorate deserves to see him as, if he had the fortitude to front one of her inquisitions, er, interviews.

  10. xtasy 10
    6 June 2013 at 9:21 am

    Budgeting and other beneficiary support and advisory services all over New Zealand seem to increasingly be hitting serious funding issues and crisis, not being able to deliver services while demand by poor beneficiaries and working people have substantially increased.

    I have heard from a fair number working at the front line that they are inundated with requests for help and struggle to cope.

    In the Budget English and his “muppet puppet” Bennett hailed the additional and “generous” 1.5 million funding for such services, which are though only pittance, when looked at more closely!

    WINZ are sending thousands of people to see budget advisors, after applying for special needs grants for food and other urgent needs, due to being unable to survive and feed their kids, as rents are sky-high in much of Auckland, as electricity, water and other basic costs increase every year.

    So while whipping beneficiaries left right and centre, and also the working poor needing extra help, Bennett is indeed keeping close purse-strings for the services that are supposed to advise and assist such people.

    The true face of the “great budget” by the National led government on the social warfare front:

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/136952/south-auckland-budget-service-cuts-staff

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10888667

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/manawatu-standard/news/8652077/Belt-tightening-for-budget-service

    And already the ‘New Zealand Federation for Family Budgeting Service’s’ seem to rely heavily on volunteers to offer such services, as this quote from their website shows:

    “Membership representatives

    At the grassroots level, member services are supported by a network of NZFFBS volunteers. Over 30 experienced representatives currently volunteer for the NZFFBS. Categorised as Tangata Whenua, District, and Regional Representatives these people work actively to support members, create opportunities for networking, coordinate communications across the country, and ensure that a consistently high level of quality service is delivered by NZFFBS members.”

    http://www.familybudgeting.org.nz/join-our-federation/

    So we will get more “welfare” and “support services” USA style, I suppose, and that is what NatACT want to bring in, yes are already bringing in into New Zealand.

    I dread to think what all those to be forced into biased assessments by MSD trained “designated doctors” and the MSD “Health and Disability Advisors” under Dr David Bratt, will get as “support”, when they get thrown off health related benefits, to go out and find jobs on the open job market from mid July onwards? They will face sanctions if they cannot find a “sympathetic” doctor taking a stand for them.

    Budgeting services are very much bottom of the cliff services, many do only tell people to try and live off what WINZ pay them, and perhaps send them off to pick up a food-parcel, they do not, and will not have the time and resources, to advise people on having been treated unfairly in the high numbers that will come to them.

    Grim and horrible prospects for the ones at the very bottom. Thank you Paula, life is good on your salary, I suppose, you look so well nourished and well made up, when facing the media!

    • prism 10.1
      6 June 2013 at 9:47 am

      Bill English was a lucky dip from Dipton for the National Party. His comments this morning about NZ and its course were so upbeat, conveying the comforting feeling of wellbeing – steady as she goes, all good. FFS

  11. prism 11
    6 June 2013 at 9:44 am

    Brian Coffey spokesperson from Ministry of Education is speaking on Radionz and the Principal of Paeroa Central School having to take back a violent and assaulting primary-age boy with ‘extreme behaviour’ badly affecting others. She is responsible for providing a safe environment at the school so is being forced into an impossible situation. If she takes the child back, she knows that she is not providing a safe environment so is open to censure, and it will badly affect the other children’s learning and the happy environment of the school, but if she refuses to accept the child, she will be thrown out of the job also the Board of Trustees sacked if they refuse to take the child back and a Commissioner put in. What an autocratic, military decision. She says that 85 children are being disregarded to favour one who is very disturbed. Hekia Parata says it’s an ‘operational matter’.

    The Ministry spokesman aims to ‘reduce the likelihood of violence recurring.’ And there will be a plan to build up the boys skills. And high level of support to stop him threatening to cut up other kids, and punch teachers.

    How can teachers provide quality education when they have to cope with this?? It is wrong that the whole school be held hostage by the failures of NZ societal system. The school is being used as a therapeutic tool. That is not the job of the school – it is to provide education to children in a way that is suitable for each age in a good stable learning environment. How can public schools provide good education if they are being made to fill in for the mental health facilities that have been continually removed by past governments?

    See logie97 – 2. for link

  12. Penny Bright 12
    6 June 2013 at 10:41 am

    Seen this?

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/ask-john

    Who is John Palino?

    The sole right wing challenger to Auckland Mayor Len Brown (from the left, the Labour-leaning Mr Brown faces Penny Bright and John Minto; postal voting opens September).

    What does the US import have to offer 1.3 million super city inhabitants?

    ……………………….

    ___________________________________________________________

    My question ( yet to be published)

    Hi John!

    Can you please list your proven achievements to date, where you have taken on Auckland Council, or any of the former 8 Councils in the Auckland region, on any matter, which have resulted in improvements for the public majority of citizens and ratepayers?

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright
    Fellow 2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate 🙂

    • Jenny 12.1
      6 June 2013 at 1:46 pm

      A number of commenters have wondered why the right cannot find any credible candidate to put up for candidacy in the Auukland Mayoral race.

      It might be because the right couldn’t do better than Brown.

    • Winston Smith 12.2
      6 June 2013 at 3:07 pm

      What does the US import have to offer 1.3 million super city inhabitants?

      – About as much as an aussie import I’d suggest

      • Colonial Viper 12.2.1
        6 June 2013 at 6:48 pm

        Facile and irrelevant, given that great NZ PMs of history have often been from overseas.

        😎

    • dpalenski 12.3
      6 June 2013 at 3:26 pm

      Wants all future intensification to be in Manukau even though it’s failed to become a second CBD for 40 years.

      For most part he’s just a stupid restaurant man who’s fronted some stupid restaurant reality TV shows.

      All need to know really, stupid restaurant man

  13. joe90 13
    6 June 2013 at 1:09 pm

    “¡Muera la inteligencia! ¡Viva la Muerte!” – they’re back.

    Catalonia and the Basque Country, the Basque Country and Catalonia, are two cancers in the body of the nation! Fa**ism, choice of Spain, comes to exterminate them, cutting into the flesh alive and well as a cold scalpel!

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/05/spanish-civil-war-monument-court

    http://www.helpcatalonia.cat/2013/05/spanish-government-representative-in.html

    • ghostrider888 13.1
      6 June 2013 at 5:53 pm

      muerte a la avaricia

    • Murray Olsen 13.2
      6 June 2013 at 6:22 pm

      Spanish and Portuguese fascism never had to answer for their crimes due to the Cold War, when they were seen as useful to the US. I’ve met quite a few ageing Iberians who look back nostalgically to the days of Franco and Salazar, and younger ones who openly admire those scum. It’s no surprise to see them back, they never went away.

      • Colonial Viper 13.2.1
        6 June 2013 at 8:28 pm

        Golden Dawn, BNP

        • rosy 13.2.1.1
          6 June 2013 at 9:39 pm

          Golden Dawn, BNP

          It’s pretty damn scary. The governments and institutions who have imposed austerity have thrown many, many ordinary workers into the arms of these people. They’ve learned nothing from their own history. Especially Merkel.

          The IMF is apologising for the damage. It may be too late – the rise of the far right has already happened.

          • ghostrider888 13.2.1.1.1
            6 June 2013 at 9:57 pm

            and then there is the UK, Hungary, Romania, France, Spain, Russia, the opposition to Islam, to same-sex relationships, to immigration, increasing unemployment, …

            …Syria, Hezbollah, Turkey, Iraq, soon Afghanistan, the US and China over African resources.

            Oh no say the MSM, the US dollar is climbing…

          • muzza 13.2.1.1.2
            6 June 2013 at 10:25 pm

            IMF apologising, they bloody well knew what would happen, the IMF promoted it, because that is what the IMF represent, its what they are!

            Fasc*sm runs this world, what part of that do people not connect, still!

    • joe90 13.3
      6 June 2013 at 8:05 pm

      In December 1975 we were heading to Mundaka in the Basque country but the death of Franco meant that there was the real possibility that Spain would go another round in the civil war so we spent an anxious few weeks waiting in Hendaye before we flagged it and went elsewhere.

      We returned in October 1976 and made it to Mundaka where I met people who had a living memory of the civil war and were genuinely terrified of the state apparatus and in fear of a return to the bad old days. They lived behind curtains and were very suspicious of us as a group but once they’d worked out who we were it all changed because the young Antipodeans of the International Brigades were still held in high regard.

      On the first anniversary of the death of Franco we went to a celebration held behind closed doors just in case the Guardia were in the town and happy birthday to you was sung in English. People were scared witless by the Guardia Civil.

      The horror of the civil war was brought home by a visit to Guernica where damage from the 1937 bombing remained unrepaired and I met elderly people who had lived through it. It was a life changing event and an awful lot for 21 year old Taranaki boy to take in and close to forty years later the memory is as vivid as it ever was.

      • vto 13.3.1
        6 June 2013 at 9:20 pm

        Your description there joe90 mirrors a near identical time spent in that same area some time later from you. It was as real as you describe.

        (As was the aim at Mundaka – that long firing lefthander of world class quality….)

      • joe90 13.3.2
        6 June 2013 at 9:44 pm

        Pre-thruster too vto. The singles and twinnies of the day made for some damn hairy down the line shenanigans to go with the worst beatings before or since.

  14. xtasy 14
    6 June 2013 at 1:44 pm

    More info on Professor Mansel Aylward, the “wayward” medical expert from the ‘Centre for Psychosocial and Disability Research’, School of Medicine, Cardiff University, Wales, UK, an extreme proponent of the “work will make you healthy” (and set you free) philosopy, based on a perverted “bio-psycho social model” for health and disability diagnosis and treatment:

    http://www.gpcme.co.nz/speakers/aylward_2013.php
    http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_210440_en.pdf
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/sep/12/private-firms-disability-assessment-regime
    http://100greatestbootlegs.blogspot.co.nz/2013/04/austerity-kills.html
    http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/forum?view=topic&catid=10&id=97090
    http://wheresthebenefit.blogspot.co.nz/2012/01/models-of-disability.html

    He has been teaching his philosophy, based on the presumption that many claiming to be ill are simply clinging to a form of “illness belief” and not really sick and/or incapacitated, to Paula Bennett, Minister for Social Development here in New Zealand. She made her own convictions clear in her speech to medical professionals on 26 September last year:

    http://www.beehive.govt.nz/speech/speech-medical-professionals

    Mansel Aylward and Dame C. Black also “advised” a set up Health and Disability Board panel at MSD, responsible for overseeing the implementation of the new welfare reforms to come into effect 15th July 2013.

    Aylward will be speaking to a national conference of general practitioners in Rotorua on 21 June, to spread his message there. There are plans to bring in UK style work ability assessments, which will see that thousands of sickness and invalid’s beneficiaries (soon to be “Jobseeker Allowance” and “Supported Living” beneficiaries) will be kicked off their benefits, and coerced into seeking work on the open job market.

    Those affected, those working with and advocating sick and disabled beneficiaries better have a look at the cabinet paper C of the government on this:

    http://www.msd.govt.nz/documents/about-msd-and-our-work/newsroom/media-releases/2013/wr-cab-paper-c-health-and-disability.pdf

    It does to some degree tell you what is in store (hints it at least). Officially it is all about PC language like “support” and “assist” into work, but it will NOT be nice stuff that is coming!

    • Murray Olsen 14.1
      6 June 2013 at 6:31 pm

      Aylward is an incredibly dangerous ideologue, at least as disconnected from reality as Monckton. He provides a pseudoscientific basis for the official sadism beloved by Bennett, Collins and the Whale Army. I cannot understand why the Medical Association doesn’t denounce him. His perverted views have caused deaths in Britain and will do so here. He should be charged in a court of law.

      • weka 14.1.1
        6 June 2013 at 7:31 pm

        “I cannot understand why the Medical Association doesn’t denounce him.”

        Because they’re gutless, and professional self-interest is contrary to taking action?

        • xtasy 14.1.1.1
          7 June 2013 at 12:16 am

          The Medical Association is not gutless, they are basically the “union” of medical professionals and practitioners, so naturally they are their advocates, rather than a standards enforcing body.

          The Medical Council would have more to say and more clout, but also they are not that interested. NZ doctors also avoid criticising each other, hence no doctor will complain openly about Bratt, and any layperson or “patient” would first have to successfully complain and get a decision out of the Health and Disability Commissioner, before any other steps will be taken by the Medical Council or even a court.

          Actually none of all above will see any reason or chance to take any action against Dr Bratt, as he is not delivering any medical service, he is merely a madcap and mean spirited “advisor” for MSD. That means he gets away with it all, and he knows it full well. I am not having you on, that is the way the law is.

          Forget the powers of a beneficiary, nobody takes them/us serious enough anyway, they/we are free game for all, the whipping boys and girls of the nation so to say!

          Hence Bratt can carry on playing the mad cowboy doctor in the OK corral.

        • Murray Olsen 14.1.1.2
          7 June 2013 at 4:20 pm

          Gutless is a value judgment, and I know doctors who are far from gutless. In this case, I was thinking about their professional self-interest. Aylward’s and Bratt’s plans make them nothing more than the signers of rejection slips, with no recognition that they might actually have some skills to bring to the table. I know I’d be extremely pissed off in my professional life if the government told me there were new laws of nature that I must now follow and got some moron out from Oral Roberts College of Creation Science to lecture about them.

          However, I think xtasy is right. It should be the Medical Council. It should also be mass mobilisation, action in Parliament, and union involvement. These developments should be fought on every front possible.

    • prism 14.2
      6 June 2013 at 6:41 pm

      It’s going to be unpleasant for those with ME or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. It’s a deviation in the body from normal functioning and hard to test for, though its results can be debilitating. It can sometimes passover months or years but till then the body’s physical and mental energy once used up is not renewed easily. The result is apparent laziness.

      As can be imagined it’s stressful and becomes more so with a punitive half-bake as this Mansel whatever sounds. They do a lot of this hounding and labelling of invalids as slack or psychologically unsound in Britain. It must have the most judgmental medical personnel in the developed world.

  15. Ad 15
    6 June 2013 at 2:24 pm

    Ross Robertson retiring! Thanks for the work Ross.

    Go for it Louisa.

    More deadwood retirements please.

    • Kiev 15.1
      6 June 2013 at 2:27 pm

      Pity he’s hanging on till the next election – double dipping is that one.

  16. TheContrarian 16
    6 June 2013 at 2:43 pm

    Fucking chaos in the House. Carter has basically lost control.

    • xtasy 16.1
      6 June 2013 at 3:23 pm

      Carter has to go, he is not able to perform and uphold authority as Speaker, as he does apparently fail to, or intentionally chooses to, not abide by Standing Orders and Speaker’s rulings.

      There is too much apparent bias, and hence the House got into tumultuous disorder prior to and during question time.

      Also is Dunne now the focus of attention, his party being given quasi party status by the Speaker, while in effect and under law it is presently not accepted as a party – represented in Parliament. Dunne is able to continue receiving appropriation for a party that does not exist. Appalling stuff, really!

      I think Carter stuffed up big, and it may cost him his position now.

      • logie97 16.1.1
        6 June 2013 at 6:59 pm

        Don’t forget Tau Henare put his hand up for this job.

        • felix 16.1.1.1
          6 June 2013 at 8:57 pm

          At the time that seemed laughable, but I’m not the only person wondering if he could possibly have been as bad a speaker as Carter.

          I’ve said it before, Key’s choice of a compliant idiot as speaker may yet be his undoing.

        • xtasy 16.1.1.2
          7 June 2013 at 12:24 am

          With Tau things would possibly be even worse by now, I dare to presume. He would be out there throwing fists around, to sort his colleagues out, I fear.

      • halfcrown 16.1.2
        6 June 2013 at 7:28 pm

        “I think Carter stuffed up big, and it may cost him his position now.”

        No it won’t. John Key needs that bit of sewage called Dung to keep his majority and Carter will obliged as much as possible and look after his mates on the right. Forget about Parliamentary rules and democracy, this shower of shit of a government will break the rules on the hour and half hour if it suited there goals.

        • halfcrown 16.1.2.1
          6 June 2013 at 7:56 pm

          And of course “there” should have been “their”. It’s been a long day.

          • xtasy 16.1.2.1.1
            7 June 2013 at 8:45 pm

            halfcrown: Thanks for your comment!

            Another day has passed in exciting times, and we see, Peters was right onto it, when he suspected Dunne had something to hide. Dunne continues to hide his emails with Vance, and that has cost him his job as minister, and the trust of Key.

            So going back to the Speaker, the Speaker gave a very liberal and under the law questionable determination to allow United Future defacto party status, until Dunne and his underlings deliver proof of 500 membership.

            As of today, we know, Carter as Speaker gave lenient and special treatment to Dunne, who has become such a dodgy person sitting in Parliament in his last numbered days, the Speaker himself has now been put in question for his actions, based on giving any credit and trust to Dunne.

            The Speaker will be gone by the end of the month, or at least within the coming few months, I am sure!

            • xtasy 16.1.2.1.1.1
              7 June 2013 at 8:53 pm

              Why can I not edit my comment above, when the time is still ticking??? Something is wrong, or did I write something yesterday, that breached the rules???

              I wanted to state that Carter’s days as Speaker are numbered, as he gave credit and leniency to Dunne, which has been for a person now considered untrustworthy by action, and by the Prime Minister.

              Hence Carter will be gone very soon, giving special leniency for Dunne to present evidence of 500 or more members. Some of the ones that may have signed up with UF may as of today withdraw that decision anyway, to create yet more of a mess, I presume.

              Good bye Dunny Boy!

  17. Rose 17
    6 June 2013 at 5:17 pm

    I am on a benefit and was sent to a budgetting service seminar. I found it really good. The speaker had been in our situation and knew exactly what it was like for us. She was encouraging and realistic. It was comforting as I felt I was not alone listening to her and also being with other people in the same position as me. I got a part-time job shortly after that so things have improved.

    • ghostrider888 17.1
      6 June 2013 at 5:48 pm

      interesting 😎

    • xtasy 17.2
      6 June 2013 at 7:01 pm

      Rose – so they now already hold complete budgeting seminars, advising and informing whole groups at one time, that is impressive. The people I know went and saw a budget advisor on a face to face basis. So numbers of beneficiaries must be so large, they now get “mass processing”.

      I am happy for you that you found it helpful. I know someone who had to pay so much rent, he would never have enough money to pay for food. WINZ repeatedly, endlessly told him, he was getting all he was entitled to, and there was no chance for him to get more.

      So he had to move and stayed in a boarding house with endless issues there (noise, cockroaches, over-crowding, dampness, tiny room, unfriendly cohabitants). As he had serious health issues they worsened extremely, and upon applying for proper housing from Housing NZ, he was there fobbed off endlessly.

      We had to go to the media, who wanted to know, finally wrote about it, and bang, suddenly Housing NZ offered him a half derelict home, which at least was a roof over the head with peace and quiet.

      You can be grateful you are healthy and able to work, there is little mercy even for the sick and incapacitated. WINZ generally do not care, and they are happy with you, because you went off the benefit a.s.a.p., doing exactly what they want people to do.

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