As mentioned to Phil Ure earlier in the week, the documentary on Aaron Swartz is a worthwhile watch for quite similar reasons. (Aaron Swartz – The Internet’s Own Boy)
He had come to the conclusion that lack of access to free public records and articles creates unnecessary barriers to good solutions. His crime was to download scholarly articles from MIT – which he could do as a Stanford associate – but using batch processes to do it in bulk.
He had done similar with legal documents and performed data analysis on them in the past.
The FBI and the administration decided to make an example of him, and pursued him even as MIT and JSTOR (the article database) did not prosecute.
+100…explains a lot…essentially workers /people should be fighting for laws/rights to allow collective action/bargaining…rights/laws which have eroded in the last 30 years when the unions were smashed
My wife and I walked on an Icelandic Glacier a couple of years ago and it wasn’t slippery because it was covered in volcanic ash. A nearby guide was not happy to see two Kiwis just walk up as he was preparing his cramp-ons and picks to take a paying group up.
“Nearly invisible particles of “black carbon” resulting from incomplete combustion of fossil fuels from diesel engines are being swept thousands of miles from industrial centres in the US, Europe and south-east Asia, as is dust from Africa and the Middle East, where dust storms are becoming bigger as the land dries out, with increasingly long and deep droughts. Earlier this year dust from the Sahara was swept north for several thousands miles, smothered Britain and reached Norway.”
This is only one of the positive feedbacks resulting from the burning of fossil fuels. The others are, methane released from melting permafrost on land and methane released from shallow water clathrates at Sea, the lowered albedo of open ocean over sea ice, and bare rock over glaciers, more warning also releases more water vapor caused by increased evaporation,(Though the jury is still out on this one. Because though atmospheric water vapor is an invisible and powerful green house gas, once condensed as suspended droplets to form clouds, switches from being a positive feedback to a negative feedback)
But added altogether the positive feedbacks greatly out weight the negative feedbacks and could if they continue much longer even overtake the general background warming due to CO2 pollution leading to an unstopplable runaway greenhouse effect, continually compounding and unknowably catastrophic. A chain reaction that quite possibly has no foreseeable end point. (at least, not as far as higher life forms like us and many others are concerned)
The message from all this is, is that the burning of fossil fuels must come to a screeching stop, nothing less will be enough. We need to be standing on the brakes right now. No coasting to a slow stop in 2050 or even 2030, (and which are purely aspirational targets, that allow politicians to avoid having to take action in the here and now).
New Zealand is the best country in the world to lead the way. Just by withdrawing fossil fuel subsidies to Solid Energy and Tiwai we could instantly have a fossil free power grid. As well as that we could become the first country in the world to set an example by becoming completely coal free. We could make these changes almost overnight without hardly any cost in lower living standards.
We could switch $billions set aside for the Roads Of National Significance into public transport. For the same price as the boondoogle that is the Waterview motorway tunnel we could have funded free public transport for Auckland for the next three decades.
(overseas examples have shown that providing city wide fare free public transport as a hassle free public service has got people out of their cars like nothing else, with resulting huge improvements in urban air quality and a complete elimination of traffic congestion. This is not even to mention the boon to the climate.)
The community will be “consulted” next year but we all know what that means. If the road is to be stopped NOW is the time to do it.
Mana will not let the tarseal addicts get away with this. Our Mana Mangere team will announce plans to fight the new road at a local body election campaign launch this Saturday 2pm at East Mangere Hall (Metro Theatre) on Massey Road. Feel free to come along and help.
In the meantime I hope all readers of this blog will know by now that Mana is proposing an alternative to big roads this election. We want to put the big roading projects on the back burner and gridlock free the city within 12 months with fare-free public transport.
The benefits are these:
1. EVERY Aucklander will get an extra hour at home EVERY work day. Even those who never use a bus or train will be able to travel a gridlock-free roading network.
2. It’s cheaper than tarseal addiction – saving hundreds of millions every year.
3. No extra charges for anyone – no rates increases, no extra fuel taxes, no congestion charges, no network charges, no toll roads, no PPPs. Those are Len Brown’s policies – not Mana’s.
4. Improved productivity – as I mentioned a government-commissioned report released in March this year estimated lost productivity at $1.25 billion every year from clogged Auckland roads. This policy will release that lost productivity and enable better pay for workers. Note here that Business New Zealand tells us we need higher productivity to get higher wage increases. Here’s a golden opportunity to pass on these big productivity increases to workers in wages.
5. Faster bus travel on unclogged roads and no time wasted collecting fares.
6. Revitalisation of Auckland’s inner city as more people travel to enjoy Queen Street and the Auckland waterfront – some kids for the first time in their lives.
7. Cleaner and greener – this will be the single greenest policy in the history of New Zealand! – less pollution, smaller carbon footprint – big ups to the environment.
8. Savings for workers – the Mayor of Tallinn calls it the “13th monthly salary” because of estimates the policy saves a month’s pay for workers using the free transport service.
9. Economic stimulation as workers have significantly more to spend in the real economy.
10. Tourism boost as tourists use the system to see all parts of Auckland as we sell the city as an eco-friendly city – released from the grip of dull ideas from the middle of last century.
Despite the fact that contractors had already started some of the preliminary work on this proposed motorway project, under intense public pressure the tarseal addicts had to back down.
Well day three of congress is off to a good start. Only thing that worries me is that singing of songs of praise to The Judeo Christian God of antiquity. I cannot understand why a political party feels the need to carry out this activity
Maybe its time to move away from such outdated actions.
The Houses of Parliament would be a good place to start.
Speaker: We are honoured to be here in this House to represent the people of Aotearoa New Zealand and pledge each day to commit to the values and the responsibilities of that endeavour. So say we all.
Naturally the pledge would also be said in Te Reo Maori and MPs can respond in either or both.
If someone can add a Te Reo Maori translation it would be appreciated.
More seriously – some elements of tradition, incorporating symbolism, continuity and collectivity are necessary secure anchors for a steadfast and outward looking national identity. We need it.
My Mother was an atheist so for her funeral I suggested avoiding hymns but caved in for the sake of the others who were attending. Compromise? Some hymns do have great music though, but the sentiments I can do without. And the sonorous voice of Mr Speaker intoning rubbish irritates.
Went to a young man’s funeral this year, that followed his belief in non-Christian values, and was amazing in it’s recognition of his individual personality and energy. Was appalled to witness a(nother) Maori attendee use the introduction of giving a gift of waiata – to introduce the song “Yes, Jesus loves Me”.
There are so many different songs that acknowledge loss and grief without recourse to any specific religion.
(In saying that I recognise my hypocrisy, one of my internal refrains when dealing with loss comes from the vocal chords of Aaron Neville – a more Christian message is hard to find….)
Trying – obviously inaccurately – to describe how the memorial service was specific to the individual – who was not Christian – but was a keen boater, and involved in a lot of community learning. His parents read out a letter of reference that they had recently sent off for their son, outlining his learning and achievements over the years. People who had been in contact with him over the years recalled their interactions.
One of the songs was “Sailing” by Rod Stewart – which actually was really lyrically appropriate, and a couple of poems about journeying etc.
It was obvious that care was taken in selection of readings and items, to reflect the beliefs of the young man – which interestingly enough was not the same as his Christian mother. She had in her time of grief, the strength of respect to deliberately choose a memorial service that reflected “his” beliefs and not her own.
The trite offering – of “Yes, Jesus Loves Me” was ill-considered in my mind and the one jarring note of the service. An imposition of personal faith on another’s service. Especially considering the acquaintance of the singer was minimal, and not close.
(Non-Christian was just meant to refer to a lack of Christian references during the service – which probably would have been a better way to refer to it)
That is a pretty bad song in any setting, It certainly would be disowned by many religions with its line ‘The Bible tells me so’ Many Christians would not find that statement very good Theology.
The trite offering – of “Yes, Jesus Loves Me” was ill-considered in my mind and the one jarring note of the service. An imposition of personal faith on another’s service. Especially considering the acquaintance of the singer was minimal, and not close.
I got a mate who’s a Presbyterian minister to do my wedding, but told him I didn’t want any god stuff. He thought he’d get around that by mentioning Atua all the time. I wasn’t particularly worried because my atheism is more casual than militant. However, in the procedures of government, I don’t think it has any place at all.
We are honoured to be here in this House to represent the people of Aotearoa New Zealand and pledge each day to the values and the responsibilities of that endeavour. We commit to govern Aotearoa New Zealand with dignity justice and humility, to respect its past, to work together for its future and to enrich and protect all its people. So say we all.
Cunliffe is pretty open about his Christian beliefs.
Was at a networking breakfast a couple months back and the speakers were Cunliffe and Parker. Cunliffe spoke at some length about his faith while Parker basically started with “I’m an atheist”
It is my opinion politicians should not try to present other than what they believe, especially their religious views and that is how having a choice of parties in a democracy accommodates religion and its influence upon society. How parties internally and externally deal with religion in that democracy is for them and their members to work out.
I am also strongly of the opinion that Parliament should not, in the administration of its duties and protocols, be seen to show preference or allegiance to one set of beliefs over another.
Removing religion from politics =/= atheism.
Politics can’t represent the beliefs and traditions of everyone because some of them are in direct conflict with one an other.
The ones that don’t condemn others, yes. Most would consider the prayer at the start of parliament decent I am guessing – so they are already included.
I think that the converse – that of banning beliefs – like what has happened to Christmas – (it has fairly well been banned and turned into ‘Season’s Greetings’) – is pretty revoltingly mediocre. More colour, not less, is what I support.
I’ve already provided you with an example – the Christmas one – going ‘a religious’ ends up effectively turning into a ban. Yes, ban may be too strong a word for it – yet effectively it removes the influence of belief systems – which by and large provide some very good principles to live by – like ‘treat others as you would have them treat you’
Being non-biased or ‘fair’ is the same reason that Civics isn’t taught in schools – the worry of political influence.
There was a time when they introduced ‘religious instruction’ at school when I was in intermediate – I believe this also went out due to the controversial nature of it created by intolerance of some parents. Like I said, I am not Christian, yet think it was good to have some input that wasn’t solely secular. Being ‘fair’ to all just ends up supporting positivism to the exclusion of other important aspects of human life.
I am suggesting an inclusive approach because I don’t know how else one addresses the issue without excluding everything that isn’t secular. Spiritual belief is important too yet it gets ignored in this manner of not wanting to offend anyone.
I think if Christianity hadn’t weakened as much as it has there wouldn’t be so much difficulties created by dishonesty and corruption that has occurred since the 70’s in economics. People are very vulnerable to manipulation without some form of developed belief system – whether it be Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Paganism or learning philosophical forms of thinking. That is how consumerism has taken such a hold. Rip away belief systems and replace the answer to ‘How do you gain contentment?’ with ‘Buy this, buy that….money, money, money’
What would that leave Blue? Church of England or Anglican (condemns popery) is….gone. Catholic Church (condemns CoE etc) is….gone. Actually, I’d be surprised if a single denomination could be singled out that doesn’t condemn or frown upon another or others to some degree or other. Maybe the Quakers.
Anyway. What is the objection to removing institutional expressions of religion from political institutions again? I couldn’t give a monkey’s flying fuck about an individual’s religious belief or lack thereof. but I do object to religion being injected into politics in any way that could suggest that person a or person b is more or less worthy due to their religion.
“I’ve already provided you with an example – the Christmas one – going ‘a religious’ ends up effectively turning into a ban. Yes, ban may be too strong a word for it – yet effectively it removes the influence of belief systems – which by and large provide some very good principles to live by – like ‘treat others as you would have them treat you’
It isn’t banning, the state has no religion, people have religion but the state doesn’t. And removing the influence of particular belief systems is a good thing. How can the state accommodate all belief systems when many of them are in direct conflict? The state has no place in dictating the terms of religious belief nor favouring one over another.
And those principles you speak of predate every one of our modern religions
@ Bill,
That is why I put that little clause in. To me it is very clear that judging others is very much discouraged by Jesus in the New Testament – however I am well aware that there are Christians out there who do judge – and very severely. These Christians need to decide whether they would prefer to have their beliefs excluded for excluding large swathes of others – whether condemning is a core belief in their belief system – or whether they would prefer their belief to have some formal expression/acceptance in our society.
As for “but I do object to religion being injected into politics in any way that could suggest that person a or person b is more or less worthy due to their religion.”
I don’t see how this relates to what I am supporting? Does this occur? The only example I can think of is that currently the actions, attitudes and propaganda of certain nations may be having that effect on someone stating they are Islamic. This is starting to be moved away from by referring to suicidal bombers & co as having ‘Radical Jihadist’ beliefs rather than Islamic ones.
The main people being held up as more worthy than others are those that place the gathering of wealth above all else – this is one of the reasons I support affirming religious beliefs because I really think there is a correlation between the current belief system of money – and those with it – being valued over anything/ anyone else and the movement to remove religious beliefs from any point where we collect for societal purposes. I suspect we are encouraging “Black-Hole-ism” by doing that; a void of values other than money being upheld.
There is no need for the state to support, encourage or embrace any particular religious belief in order to just. The only way the state can judge effectively and fairly is for it to be totally impartial to all religious beliefs by holding none itself.
Thats odd, I could have sworn this discussion started with you referring to Cunliffe being open about his beliefs and followed by Freedom talking about Parliament:
“I am also strongly of the opinion that Parliament should not, in the administration of its duties and protocols, be seen to show preference or allegiance to one set of beliefs over another.”
When did the discussion start being about the State?
Was that when you decided that it was easier to argue your point if you shifted the topic in such a way? 🙂
“Parliament should not, in the administration of its duties and protocols, be seen to show preference or allegiance to one set of beliefs over another.”
If the state, or parliament if you prefer, has a particular religious viewpoint it can no longer be just nor impartial. The state MUST be a-religious to be just.
The “Christian Right” as it stands in the USA is very keen on the Ten Commandments from the Old Testament…they’ll say absolutely nothing about the Beatitudes as taught by Jesus though.
Tsk tsk you are not acknowledging my comments very well at all.
The parliament are full of our representatives whom are voted in (or out) on a regular basis and it is parliament that organizes, formulates and pursues political approaches that people vote in.
Parliament is part of the state, yet the state absorbs a much wider range of organizations such as the police, court systems and the military. The state is more static and doesn’t change as readily as parliament.
It is therefore, not a whim of mine that I point out that speaking about parliament is a different topic to speaking about the state.
I am not proposing that parliament takes on a particular religious belief I am suggesting that it is better for parliament to accept/acknowledge all beliefs that are practiced in this country – conditional that they are tolerant of others’.
I don’t see how this (preferential treatment or discrimination of individuals based on religious affiliation) relates to what I am supporting? Does this occur?
You fancy naming me the last PM of the UK (mother of all) Parliament(s) who was a practicing Catholic?
Firstly Parliament does accept all beliefs because there are no laws on the books the ban nor curtail anyone’s belief. Because we are a secular society. But if parliament favours one over another then parliament starts to judge some as more important than the other which is not conducive to a fair and equitable governance model.
I really don’t know where you are getting this ‘judging one over the other’ bit from?
I guess that is true re – no beliefs outlawed, however I thought this discussion was about a view of excluding all beliefs apart from secular ones – which doesn’t seem to be held as a belief by those who hold such a belief – whereas I was arguing it is more fair and equitable to include beliefs rather than exclude all apart from materialism – that way we actually might make some progress on areas such as religious beliefs tend to focus – honorable behaviour, fairness, community, sharing….just a thought….
Chris Hedges on secular fundamentalism and the cult of science
In May of 2007 I went to L.A. to debate Sam Harris, and then two days later I went to San Francisco to debate Christopher Hitchens. Up until that point, I hadn’t paid much attention to the work of the New Atheists. After reading what they had written and walking away from these debates, I was appalled at how what they had done for the secular left was to embrace the same kind of bigotry and chauvinism and intolerance that marks the radical Christian right. I found that in many ways they were little more than secular fundamentalists…
…I think a lot of their popularity stems from a legitimate anger on the part of a lot of Americans toward the intolerance and chauvinism of the radical religious right in this country. Unfortunately, what they’ve done is offer a Utopian belief system that is as self-delusional as that offered by Christian fundamentalists. They adopt many of the foundational belief systems of fundamentalists. For example, they believe that the human species is marching forward, that there is an advancement toward some kind of collective moral progress — that we are moving towards, if not a Utopian, certainly a better, more perfected human society. That’s fundamental to the Christian right, and it’s also fundamental to the New Atheists.
You know, there is nothing in human nature or in human history that points to the idea that we are moving anywhere. Technology and science, though they are cumulative and have improved, in many ways, the lives of people within the industrialized nations, have also unleashed the most horrific forms of violence and death, and let’s not forget, environmental degradation, in human history. So, there’s nothing intrinsically moral about science…I find the faith that these people place in science and reason as a route toward human salvation to be as delusional as the faith the Christian right places in miracles and angels.
CV:
nope. parliament fulfills the wishes of the electorate.
felix: separation is not a belief system or philosophy. It’s simply a method of ensuring that government does not raise one magic book above all others.
“Secularism is the principle of the separation of government institutions and persons mandated to represent the state from religious institutions and religious dignitaries.”
It goes on to say:
Holyoake invented the term “secularism” to describe his views of promoting a social order separate from religion, without actively dismissing or criticizing religious belief. An agnostic himself, Holyoake argued that “Secularism is not an argument against Christianity, it is one independent of it. It does not question the pretensions of Christianity; it advances others. Secularism does not say there is no light or guidance elsewhere, but maintains that there is light and guidance in secular truth, whose conditions and sanctions exist independently, and act forever. Secular knowledge is manifestly that kind of knowledge which is founded in this life, which relates to the conduct of this life, conduces to the welfare of this life, and is capable of being tested by the experience of this life.”
I don’t have much objection at all to the concept of ‘not being ruled by religion’ And I like the definition where it is saying ‘without actively dismissing or criticizing religious belief.’ I like this – it is not shutting out the possibilities of other belief-systems.
My objection comes in when I get the sense that things are tipping toward a dogmatic requirement for non-belief; where anything other than materialistic values are no-go areas – as the article CV provided touched on – where it becomes about not expressing any religiosity/non-materialistic/unprofane beliefs.
For example I don’t think it is very good if schools can’t provide any religious instruction because some of the population can’t stand other belief-systems – I would prefer that there is more acceptance than a rigid materialistic attitude toward life. Perhaps this could be a decision for the parents at each school? If enough parents approve then religious instruction can be allotted some time. As the Contrarian said somewhere in this Open Mike -and I agree with – that some people don’t require additional religious/spiritual input – however some do and benefit greatly from such, so why are those that have no requirement taking precedence?
What is ending up occurring is only the ‘lowest common denominator’ is ‘allowed’ and this turns out to be materialism and non-belief. The message becomes anything other than this is a no-go area/side issue. I don’t think it is for many and I don’t think this is the best outcome at all.
@ Felix lol oh dear me no you kind of explain the point pretty succinctly there.
…how about only drop the beliefs that refuse to tolerate others’ beliefs? A government needs to incorporate all of society – a belief that excludes some isn’t one a government can pursue. A belief that aims at forgiveness, nonjudgmental-ness, love and compassion – for example Christianity before the twerps start re-interpreting it – seems pretty compatible with community spirit – which is really what government represents isn’t it? Most religions can be interpreted in similar ways – and then most religions have intolerant offshoots created by small-minded bigots – so should the religion be interpreted with the best interpretation? Or simply be characterized by the way The Bigots reinterpret it?
I like the prayer at the start of parliament.
I am not a Christian.
“A government needs to incorporate all of society”
And it does so by not weighing any particular religious belief against any other. It does so by being secular and by making no ruling in favour of one religion over another.
You can ignore the arguments I provide – yet I would prefer that you admit that is what you are doing. I am stating that the best way to be impartial is not to ‘make everything secular’ it is to be inclusive of all the beliefs that exist in our country.
I have already provided fairly long comments as to why I believe this is the better way to be impartial.
So in the case of Northern Ireland – should the state come down on the side of the Catholics or the Protestants? New Zealand now has a majority of people not identifying with Christianity – where should the state stand in relation to this?
The state cannot endorse, promote nor ban any religious belief. The only way the state can be an impartial judge to all of its citizens is to hold all views as equal, therefore having no view itself.
Well like I said above – I really wasn’t arguing re the state – I was arguing re parliament. And if you were reading my comments you might have been able to work out that I would view that Irish parliament would have to acknowledge both beliefs – if the formal version of those beliefs were prepared to be tolerant of the other.
“The state cannot endorse, promote nor ban any religious belief. The only way the state can be an impartial judge to all of its citizens is to hold all views as equal, therefore having no view itself.”
Sure a state can. It can endorse one religious belief over another by acknowledging one over another. It can promote a belief by doing much the same – such as promoting valuing money over any other belief by ignoring all other beliefs other than that of valuing money or being aggressively neutral on the matter apart from that of the value of money. And a state can certainly ban a religious belief by creating laws that deal out punishments for certain beliefs – such as the one about believing it is o.k. to kill others. (Such a belief incurs punishment) If a state had knowledge of only one belief – it would not be capable of being impartial because those with that one belief would immediately receive more understanding than those of other beliefs.
So which belief do you think parliament should endorse? Which one of the 41000 denominations of Christianity should the state support? Which of the three major Abrahamic religions should the government judge to be more important than the other? Christians the world over eat beef but Hindus would find the idea repugnant. Should we ban bacon? How about Leviticus? Do we ban the wearing of mixed cloth? Or the eating of shellfish? Is polygamy is acceptable? How about death to homosexuals? If the parliament endorses Christianity say good-bye to your freedom of speech.
Gees Mary (she was quite contrary, so I thought that name might fit),
Inclusiveness doesn’t require judging or endorsing one belief as better than another it simply requires acknowledging it.
So now we hit the same quandary I have mentioned several time now – the state/govenrment/Parliament (whatever you like) cannot include every religious viewpoint because some are directly in opposition to others. Therefore the state/govenrment/Parliament must be a-religious. Only in being a-relgious can it be just to all viewpoints, and inclusive of all view-points.
I don’t think that is a decision for you to make Contrarian, I think that is up to the religious belief’s organisation to decide whether they are prepared to value intolerance over all their other principles. I do not believe that every religious person is intolerant of other religions – only some sects of certain religions are that hung up on intolerance.
Well if not a Christian why on earth would you want an Anglican Prayer out of BCP that is Three hundred 70 years old.
or for that matter why any prayer. A Prayer by its name is a plea or petition to the almighty God. If he listened at all it would be surprising he certainly has given no evidence that he has ever acted upon the petition.
Leave him out, replace it with a statement similar t what we proposed earlier in discussion or just say This session of Parliament is now open
Is good to see you back, by the way, Vicky32.
Considering I have been arguing to include all beliefs – I can’t understand where you are coming from in your comment here. What do you mean?
I made my comment before seeing yours, Blue Leopard… as a Christian, I felt very excluded. It’s always bothered me that Standardistas seem to, most of them, despise religion. They also seem not to understand that many leftists are Christian (or Muslim) and conversely, many Christians and Muslims are left leaning – as this is absolutely NOT the USA! (Where you would never find that)
Yes, it is a shame re people ‘despising religion’ – it would appear also that some such types do not see the detrimental effects of ‘aggressive secularism’.
Interesting what you say because I have a relative who is a strongly committed Christian and I was discussing how I didn’t understand why Christians are voting right in US (I see left-wing values as far closer aligned with Christian beliefs – or any religion I know of – for that matter!) this conversation informed me how off-putting the secularism expressed by Helen Clark was for that person- (she did something like cancel Christmas carol singing in schools?). I can’t say I think this was a good move for any reason – yet especially not if it alienates good people.
Perhaps what you express is more widespread than ‘secularists’ would care to believe?
“Perhaps what you express is more widespread than ‘secularists’ would care to believe?”
I think so! (This board used to have a good quote function, it’s a pity it’s gone). I remember being very surprised when I saw my non-Christian son say on a website called h2g2 years ago, to a person in the US or UK, I can’t remember which, that the religious right scarcely even existed here, and that most religious people here are leftists. I was surprised, because I had taken him to church with me until he was 17 and didn’t want to attend, and I didn’t think he had even noticed! But he had…
🙂
I think you are talking about the “aggressive intolerance” that many people seem to think their particular beliefs, or lack of them, justify.
It mystifies me how many otherwise intelligent people believe in things when their is absolutely no evidence to support their belief, but I accept it as one of the mysteries of life. And there are many religious people who do a lot of good. Equally there are many who are intolerant and “holier than though”.
All of the worlds religions have similar positions on how to treat others, as do atheists and humanists.
It is a pity that many “Christians” “Muslims” and others do not listen to their own religions teachings.
I do not have a problem with inclusiveness, just bigotry and intolerance.
“It is a pity that many “Christians” “Muslims” and others do not listen to their own religions teachings.”
It is also a pity that some of them listen to their own religious teachings. For example the 10 Commandments explicitly reject freedom of speech, association and expression – fundamental human rights.
Mmm Considering the Anglican Church is often called the Tory Party at Prayer it is understandable that many people of the left do not want a religion associated with all that things that they want to escape from. Yes you could replace the C of E with some other brand of religion but then you come up with which one? Someone once showed me some stats about the number of Catholics as a proportion of population as compared with their representation in the House. It was way way out of whack and one would have to wonder why so many of that religion find them self elected to parliament. I do not imagine that the situation has improved which may indicate why we have been so slow to make changes to legislation that catholics are opposed to. Eg Birth Control, Abortion, getting the taxpayer to fund their brand of religious schools for starters.
The only answer that I can see is that we remove all religion from Parliament and the School system. If people want to follow a certain religion that is heir business but not via tax funded institutions. We now have reportedly the Conservative Party Owner holding prayer meetings at work. I wonder how many atheists he employs. We have the Sallies now deciding who will get housing assistance. This organisation that presented a very large petition that wanted Homosexual people to continue to be imprisoned and punished for falling in love with a same sex person. I wonder how many gay people will get housing assistance from Salvation Army.
OF course I could be just paranoid but I would prefer that all dealings with the public social welfare or education or whatever be handled by public servants and not religious groups.
Nice of you to pop by Vicky32. It appears that some cannot accept the importance of spirituality and/or religion and/or faith in the life and wellbeing of a healthy people.
Exclusion is never part of my general outlook on life so don’t give up just yet Vicky32.
The reach of the idea’s intent is not to eradicate peoples’ beliefs from NZ politics.
I have written a more complete explanation of the off the cuff comments that appeared to be the catalyst of this interesting little excursion people went on today.
I am awaiting some Te Reo translation work and should have it all ready for general consumption later in the week. I will submit it as a guest post and if those that decide these things toss it back, I will put it into Open mike in the near future. Not exactly a topic that is critically urgent but still ….
Sooner or later this country will be having the big Republic dialogue for real and this very topic is going to be a part of that discussion. No reason we can’t jump a little ahead on the agenda 🙂
I didn’t hear that interview, but would I be right in thinking that his emphasis would be on the ethical and humanitarian teachings that are a part of a religious upbringing? That’s what I hear coming from him – a position, as a minister’s kid myself, I can clearly identify with. He is certainly not, if you look back at the way he has voted and the liberal beliefs he espouses, a conventional, moralistic and conservative christian in the way right-wing god-botherers have taught us to think is normal nowadays. It’s hard to think of anyone furtherer away from the likes of, say, Colin Craig or Brian Tamaki.
@ TheContrarian…..Christianity can be pretty broad …from the right wing war mongering , sexist , homophobic ,fascist fundamentalists to the liberation theologians …to the postmodern symbolic and non- literalist Gnostic mystic Christians…to the atheist humanist Christian theologians and priests like Don Cuppitt and Lloyd Geering…to the eco-theologians like Catholic Priest Thomas Berry and postmodernist Carol P. Christ…to the radical feminist gay theologians like Professor Mary Daly…to the Pacifist Christians
..Christianity is a broad church…and I would think that David Cunliffe would be of the enlightened liberal end of the spectrum
…i have huge respect for some Christians…so good on David Cunliffe for being open about his beliefs!…i doubt he will try and impose them on people
How low can Paula Bennett sink. She now wants all women who have been abused by Rolf Harris to come forward and lay a complaint because she wants them all ‘to feel safe’. Maybe she could refer them to a Rape Crisis Centre. There is nothing sincere about that woman. Fancy trying to use these women for political gain. She is an absolute poor example of womanhood. Nothing to recommend her at all.
Chooky. Yes, that was going to be my point in my comment above but forgot in my anger. Christchurch closed for want of $30.000.00!
And is she going to extend her ’embrace’ (spit) to include the girl attacked by the Malaysian ‘Diplomat’. Or any of the hundreds of women who are living in terror on a daily basis.
Or is her help only being given to victims of attacks by celebrities.
And how is she going to ‘keep them safe’. Perhaps because it’s easy to say that when he is already in jail. Anyway, what did she think he was going to do. Stalk them all???
“Or is her help only being given to victims of attacks by celebrities.”
Too broad a category there, ffloyd, clearly it’s only for women who can connect with Maggie Barry.
As for those who have put themsleves in the path of non-famous abusers – well, it’s far too expensive and time consuming to deal with their experiences! /sarc.
Poorer Benefit is amoral. Her type of thinking has just closed a rapeline in Christchurch, the suffering city. Her type of behaviour has caused suffering to thousands of women and men under punitive stupid policies still called ‘welfare’ I think.
Now Rolf Harris is to be a focus of blame and a deflector of attention while she goes on her merry way doing with legislation and systems what Rolf Harris did with his eager fingers, and both blatant abusers of people.
“How low can Paula Bennett sink.”? Bit of a silly question really. She can go totally subterranean. It’s only a load of sorta spin sorta doctors and sorta re sorta imagers that sorta keep her above ground (sorta) giggle giggle.
I think half her problem is that she makes pigshit look gifted. The other half is that she is nasty to the core. Once she’s surrounded by the intellectual prowess of the NAct caucus, this type of garbage will flow freely.
I can go with that. Would like to say something along the lines of ,,, and govern with justice and humility to enrich and protect all people of New Zealand.
I would like to see a statement that is inclusive and binding on such governments.
McIvor nee Woodham – I salute thee for your opinion piece Herald online this morning, part of which reads:
“And it’s appalling McCully’s first call was to grovel to John Key for putting his boss in it, rather than apologise to the alleged victim of the sexual assault. Typical, but appalling.”
Appalling ? Too right ! But “Typical” ?
Typical – of McCully ? Can’t be. McCully’s not alone in this.
Typical – of Key ? “First, you’ll apologise to ME”. Well, it’s been happening.
Conclusion – McIvor nee Woodham, your “Typical” points up that the first imperative in addressing dysfunction in governance is grovelling, abject mea culpa before the very man whose conceited distaste for “higher standards” founds that very dysfunction. And while we’re on the topic of immunity – for GodKey, immunity from any responsibility ever.
McIvor nee Woodham, you nearly cracked it mate but a mere Freudian slip does not merit a 21 gun salute. That said I appreciate how the prospect of the 22nd gun terrifies the shit out of you. Sterling jono’ you.
@ North
McIvor nee Woodham (aka goodtime gal-oh-but-that-was-a-long-long-time-ago) replies: ‘ How very dare you call me “mate”! I’m ABOVE you and don’t you EVER forget it or I’ll just have to show you who’s boss’ (Hog).
McIvor nee Woodham says that because she has a platform to do so (now). She was hideous (before ‘now’), and she’s hideous now.
ooooo Tim – you pig! No – it’s just that there are some (Kerry, Pulla Bent, and others) that will get my respect the minute they show respect for others. So far, they’re incapable, and I don’t hold out much hope for their future. Usually I ignore them and thank Christ I haven’t had the displeasure of having had to listen to McIvor (nee Woodham)’s voluptuous presence (in body and spirit) for fekkin years
sauce for gooses, source for ganders and all that
Didn’t catch his name but was disgusted at the panel member who was supposed to be championing the Left. He spent the entire session rubbishing Labour. His analysis was shallow and stupid. Not once did he acknowledge there had been a smear campaign against Cunliffe and Labour… he just blamed Cunliffe for everything. He chastised Cunliffe for not talking about policy during his interview with Corin Dann – ignoring the fact the interviewer sets the questions and naturally all Dann wanted to talk about was moas, being sorry for being a man and the West Coast tree felling controversy. He also dammed Cunliffe for not discussing Labour’s Education policy during the interview. Isn’t Cunliffe announcing a major Education policy plank this afternoon? Did he expect Cunliffe to reveal it on Q&A?
Add the voice of the woman standing in for the Right and a fence sitting “political scientist” and it was one massive anti-Labour talk-fest. The worst I’ve seen thus far!
@ Anne I think they said he was a Labour party communications expert… and then he went on the entire time about how appalling labour’s communications strategy and delivery was.
I didn’t hear anything about a L.P. communications expert, but the opening claim was that he is a Labour Party member. That being the case, I am considering a formal complaint to the NZ Council with a view to having his membership suspended at the least…
The worst experience was the look of joy on the faces of Susan Wood and the wholly unlikable right wing panel member. They couldn’t wait to make the most of it. Wood made no attempt to balance any of his claims which is part of her role as the Current Affairs host. She’s a disgrace!
Actually Wood did mention to Quin words to the effect of: ‘you are supposed to be hear to stick up for/ speak for Labour/Left’. (shoot – I can’t remember it very accurately, sorry)
It was pretty good that she said that – at least she provided a heads up that something was imbalanced about the discussion because the person put on to speak ‘for’ left wing interests wasn’t doing much other than shaft Cunliffe.
His name is Phil Quinn, (am just watching the hour-later version)
A google search on that name brings up a website for an Irish Medium with the same name …(who looks a lot like the guy on Q&A 😐 )….and also lots of Kiwiblog pages that quote someone of that name….
….??….
That’s enough for me. Left wing commentator? My Aunt Betty’s bloomers!!! He’s an arrogant right wing hack who pretends to be left wing. That explains his anti-Cunliffe tirade on Q&A.
North is right. A determined, unabashed editorial pose. Who is the Q&A producer? Think he/she may be going to get an earful from me.
Yeah its getting a bit much – starting to feel I won’t be bothering with watching political programs and even the cheap criticisms here on the Standard toward Labour are starting to get my goat; criticisms of Labour are increasingly appearing like direct reflections of the tone being set by the massive spin in the media.
People need to really check what their views are based on with the level of unadulterated propaganda going on in this country just now.
This is exactly how it works isn’t it? Poor political commentary full of bias and exaggeration puts people off politics so much that they neither feel like becoming more informed (if they do there is nowhere to go without having to trawl through mindless critique from people who have been brainwashed) nor do many people end up feeling like voting at all.
I agree, blue leopard, I can see no point in watching/hearing any more of it unless it’s to follow a variation of ‘keep you friends close and your enemies closer’. I just find it depressing that their are so many stupid or naïve journos and commentators around prepared to sell their souls in this way. You can see how easy it is for dictatorships and other obnoxious regimes to rise up, even in so-called first-world countries, when there are so many sycophants around prepared to make the outrageous seem normal in this way
When I was younger, after reading books about/set in the war, I was particularly fascinated with what you just mentioned – how obnoxious leaders/regimes got the support they did… like in WWII Germany – I guess I’ve witnessed the answers to my childhood curiosity. It is atruly sad spectacle to behold.
Yes, I hesitated to give that as an example in case it seemed overly dramatic, but it is what I had in mind, of course. Scary really – shows just how thin the line really is!
I am glad you persevered in using that example – because for me it nailed it. And you expressed something that has been bubbling under the surface of my awareness for a while – and reading what you wrote cheered me up…as perverse as that may sound.
Hmm to put it another way – I think you provided astute and insightful analysis to what is occurring by using that example – and I enjoy when people share their insights. 🙂
Yeah, Phil Quin was active with the Right-leaning Mike Moore faction during the 90s. Very much supportive of Rogernomics (at least in his younger days). Ran Phil Goff’s numbers for him during various attempts to topple Clark as leader before the 96 Election.
Also champions the idea that the NZ Labour Party should adopt the formal factionalism of their Aussie counterparts. I think it’s fair to say that Phil does enjoy – possibly revels in – having a bit of go at the Left of the Party (as well as the broader political Left outside the Party). So, I think there’s quite a bit of antipathy there.
From memory, he worked for a while as an advisor to Aussie Foreign Affairs Minister Gareth Evans. Very much at the Establishment/Neo-Liberal end of the Party, although, to be fair, he has, at times, sounded quite progressive and Social Democratic – particularly when having a go at the Nats.
The one thing I will say for him is that he knows his shit when it comes to the dark arts of extracting a winning strategy from a few shavings of the electoral vote. He has that gut instinct – from organising local campaigns in Aussie Elections, particularly, it seems, in Victoria – about what gets the punters into the polling booths. And, along with my good self, he was the only one that realised things were gonna be close in the 2010 Mana By-Election. So, he’s a long way from me politically (in fact, I seem to remember at one point he called me “a Trot” because I wasn’t entirely ruling out voting Matt McCarten in the Mana by-Election), but I do have a certain amount of respect for his campaign nous.
According to the National Business Review Phil Quin is “ a former adviser for the NZ and Australia labour parties and a strategic communications consultant”.
Some of his work:
NZ Herald: The anatomy of a failed Labour coup
9:22 AM Saturday Apr 2, 2011 Fifteen years ago, Helen Clark stared down a party coup mounted by her eventual successor, Phil Goff. But her victory came at a huge price for Labour. Phil Quin, one of the plotters, offers an insider’s account. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10716608
I was strangely propelled into some kind of alternate reality between how composed, assured and articulate Mr Cunliffe was during a provocative, hostile interview (not designed to shed any light on policy whatever) and the panels’ summation.
Was it the ‘bio-Hacker’ title that got you drooling Phillip, flew straight into your little fantasy world imagining a secret group of underground cheese makers did you,
Why not just make vegan cheese out of soy milk and save all the absolute frigging bullshit, don’t even need get into any of that cloak and dagger bio-hacking stuff,
Margaret Sparrow chronicles the experiences of 19th-Century New Zealand women who had managed to obtain abortions. Her new book ‘Rough on Wimmin – Abortion in 19th Century NZ’ explores the dangers, risks, prejudices and pre-conceptions of the day that befell those women who became pregnant out of wedlock.
Feminist and academic Rachel Brown also needs a mention for her research on which Margaret Sparrow bases her book
Dr. Margaret Sparrow honours pioneer sexual health activist Ettie Rout. Both these great women have braved controversy and opprobrium and saved lives… . Ettie Rout was honoured in France but neglected in New Zealand
I heard that interview Chooky, Margaret Sparrow has done much for NZ women and the country and the brave and determined doctors and supporters of abortion rights, men and women.
thanx greywarbler…she is a wonderful woman doctor for her compassion and resilience and intelligence and her fight for justice for all women to control their fertility and determine their lives ….. a truly great New Zealander!
just back from door knocking in karori. actually being positive and not just a crappy slogan. Surprisingly strong support from people who say they used to vote Labour but cannot vote for a man who is ashamed to be a man. This. is the show me the money turning point of 2014. Bring back Shearer.
just back from door knocking in Epsom actually being a crappy slogan and not just positive; Surprisingly strong support from people who say they used to vote National but cannot vote for a man who is ashamed to be honest. This is the show me a perk busting turning point of 2011. Bring back Rodney Hide.What???
The turning point Fisiani is, imo, cutting class sizes. This has mass appeal. Men who react like that were probably not left voters anyway, concern troll, not convincing.
He’s got no NAct friends. They all facepalm whispering asides about what a try hard he is. I got lots of NAct friends. They all tell me that. Laughing stock. They’re glad we got him here on TS.
sunday morning funnies.
prove you were in Karori this morning.
You are just a figment of Hootons imagination.
here to make trouble.
you worse than a moran!
Given that proven liar fisiani claimed the other day to be doorknocking in Hutt South, his move to Karori strongly suggests that National are desperate for activists. Or he’s lying again. Or both.
Still, you’ve got to admire Fizzy’s strenuous attempts at authenticity. He knows that Labour strategists know that Karori West is the ( slightly ) Left-leaning area of the otherwise relatively Blue suburb of Karori. He’s clearly determined to get under Labour’s skin any way he can. The bloke’s displaying a certain amount of tenacity on this. My guess is he’ll be talking about a middle-of-the road suburb in the Mana Electorate next – I’m picking Linden or possibly Pukerua Bay.
At the Labour conference afternoon session. There are about a thousand seats in the floor of the Michael Fowler, According to the Labour staff here, at least 800 seats are filled. Looks about right.
That was a very good speech by David Cunliffe. Most of the policy has been previewed earlier.
But he announced that the money that National was putting into overpaid part-time principals will go instead into employing 2000 more teachers. That will reduce class sizes.
Everything that I have seen says that smaller class sizes works.
Good. Paying people more for just doing their job seems like a useless idea to me. If there are cruddy teachers out there, then they just need to be either taught to do better or they should leave the profession. If they are burnt out, then just reducing the class sizes will help.
Dropping National’s pointless paperwork nightmare of “National’s standards” will help a lot in reducing the amount of burnout.
“Mr. Holdren’s zeal, and his tendency to present somewhat alarming visions of the future, have stirred controversy….”
“He’s somebody that people want to hear from,” Mr. McDonough said. “And even if he weren’t, he’d be sure he was heard from.”
Mr. Holdren, whose views and pivotal role in the administration have put him in the cross hairs of critics, also spearheaded the most recent National Climate Assessment report, which painted a stark picture of the impact climate change is having on the nation…..
….But even some people who admire his intelligence and ability to explain the science of climate change say his passion for the issue can work against him.
“He is a zealot,” said John W. Rowe, the former chief executive of the energy company Exelon, who was a co-chairman with Mr. Holdren of a panel on energy policy in the 2000s. “If you start off skeptical of his science because of the eminence of his zeal, you can be confirmed in your skepticism.”
Gimme protest consciousness ahead of lazy biddable fat arse at someone else’s tepu. This is how Peter Peter ShonKey Eater rationalises his abject failure ? More sneering at Maori ? Incredible !
Yeah, that’s how I read it. He’s been fèted and dined at National’s table and now thinks that the way thing are is fine – no matter what damage it does to his people.
WTF Paddy Gower interview of Cunliffe from earlier on in the Labour congress – just saw this – that Jonolist is a horrible little NAT weasel completely uninterested in serving the public. Hope he loses his access to the PM’s office in September.
Paddy’s tactics appears to be make Cunliffe focus on the small picture, the minutiae and the trivial
Poor Paddy is still obsessed with trivia like tongue in cheek Moa humour and his imaginary past Abcs. There are bigger issues but he doesn’t seem to understand why we have elections.
Actually I think Cunliffe enjoyed it CV. Paddy Gower was playing the devil’s advocate and Cunliffe knew it. There was a 12 minute sparring match and David won. His best line was quoting Gower’s producer who was complimentary about Labour’s policy planks and that left Paddy chortling.
Yeah I noticed that one. And I was very interested that Gower questioned Cunliffe on being too light blue. But Paddy missing all those chances to put PM aspirant Cunliffe on the spot about serious stuff, instead of trying to force DC to stay on small picture soap opera dramatics.
Herald bias watch.
Note is is the Japanese who are accused of taking ”the hard line” rather than New Zealand as they slavishly follow the neo-liberal policies of large corporates.
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Long stories short, the top six things in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Thursday, February 13 are:The coalition Government’s early 2024 ‘fiscal emergency’ freeze on funding, planning and building houses, schools, local roads and hospitals helped extend and deepen the economic and jobs recession through calendar ...
For obvious reasons, people feel uneasy when the right to be a citizen is sold off to wealthy foreigners. Even selling the right to residency seems a bit dubious, when so many migrants who are not millionaires get turned away or are made to jump through innumerable hoops – simply ...
A new season of White Lotus is nearly upon us: more murder mystery, more sumptuous surroundings, more rich people behaving badly.Once more we get to identify with the experience of the pampered tourist or perhaps the poorly paid help; there's something in White Lotus for all New Zealanders.And unlike the ...
In 2016, Aotearoa shockingly plunged to fourth place in the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index. Nine years later, and we're back there again: New Zealand has seen a further slip in its global ranking in the latest Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI). [...] In the latest CPI New Zealand's score ...
1. You’ve started ranking your politicians on how much they respect the rule of law2. You’ve stopped paying attention to those news publications3. You’ve developed a sudden interest in a particular period of history4. More and more people are sounding like your racist, conspiracist uncle.5. Someone just pulled a Nazi ...
Transforming New Zealand: Brian EastonBrian Easton will discuss the above topic at 2/57 Willis Street, Wellington at 5:30pm on Tuesday 26 February at 2/57 Willis Street, WellingtonThe sub-title to the above is "Why is the Left failing?" Brian Easton's analysis is based on his view that while the ...
Salvation Army’s State of the Nation 2025 report highlights falling living standards, the highest unemployment rates since the 1990s and half of all Pacific children going without food. There are reports of hundreds if not thousands of people are applying for the same jobs in the wake of last year’s ...
Mountain Tui is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Correction: On the article The Condundrum of David Seymour, Luke Malpass conducted joint reviews with Bryce Wilkinson, the architect of the Regulatory Standards Bill - not Bryce Edwards. The article ...
Tomorrow the council’s Transport, Resilience and Infrastructure Committee meet and agenda has a few interesting papers. Council’s Letter of Expectation to Auckland Transport Every year the council provide a Letter of Expectation to Auckland Transport which is part of the process for informing AT of the council’s priorities and ...
All around in my home townThey're trying to track me down, yeahThey say they want to bring me in guiltyFor the killing of a deputyFor the life of a deputySongwriter: Robert Nesta Marley.Support Nick’s Kōrero today with a 20% discount on a paid subscription to receive all my newsletters directly ...
Hi,I think all of us have probably experienced the power of music — that strange, transformative thing that gets under our skin and helps us experience this whole life thing with some kind of sanity.Listening and experiencing music has always been such a huge part of my life, and has ...
Business frustration over the stalled economy is growing, and only 34% of voters are confidentNicola Willis can deliver. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāLong stories short, the top six things in Aotearoa’s political economy around housing, climate and poverty on Wednesday, February 12 are:Business frustration is growing about a ...
I have now lived long enough to see a cabinet minister go both barrels on their Prime Minister and not get sacked.It used to be that the PM would have a drawer full of resignations signed by ministers on the day of their appointment, ready for such an occasion. But ...
“The ACT Party can’t be bothered putting an MP on one of the Justice subcommittees hearing submissions on their own Treaty Principles Bill,” Labour Justice Spokesperson Duncan Webb said. ...
The Government’s newly announced funding for biodiversity and tourism of $30-million over three years is a small fraction of what is required for conservation in this country. ...
The Government's sudden cancellation of the tertiary education funding increase is a reckless move that risks widespread job losses and service reductions across New Zealand's universities. ...
National’s cuts to disability support funding and freezing of new residential placements has resulted in significant mental health decline for intellectually disabled people. ...
The hundreds of jobs lost needlessly as a result of the Kinleith Mill paper production closure will have a devastating impact on the Tokoroa community - something that could have easily been avoided. ...
Today Te Pāti Māori MP for Te Tai Tokerau, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi, released her members bill that will see the return of tamariki and mokopuna Māori from state care back to te iwi Māori. This bill will establish an independent authority that asserts and protects the rights promised in He Whakaputanga ...
The Whangarei District Council being forced to fluoridate their local water supply is facing a despotic Soviet-era disgrace. This is not a matter of being pro-fluoride or anti-fluoride. It is a matter of what New Zealanders see and value as democracy in our country. Individual democratically elected Councillors are not ...
Nicola Willis’ latest supermarket announcement is painfully weak with no new ideas, no real plan, and no relief for Kiwis struggling with rising grocery costs. ...
Half of Pacific children sometimes going without food is just one of many heartbreaking lowlights in the Salvation Army’s annual State of the Nation report. ...
The Salvation Army’s State of the Nation report is a bleak indictment on the failure of Government to take steps to end poverty, with those on benefits, including their children, hit hardest. ...
New Zealand First has today introduced a Member’s Bill which would restore decision-making power to local communities regarding the fluoridation of drinking water. The ‘Fluoridation (Referendum) Legislation Bill’ seeks to repeal the Health (Fluoridation of Drinking Water) Amendment Act 2021 that granted centralised authority to the Direct General of Health ...
New Zealand First has introduced a Member’s Bill aimed at preventing banks from refusing their services to businesses because of the current “Environmental, Social, and Governance (ESG) Framework”. “This Bill ensures fairness and prevents ESG standards from perpetuating woke ideology in the banking sector being driven by unelected, globalist, climate ...
Erica Stanford has reached peak shortsightedness if today’s announcement is anything to go by, picking apart immigration settings piece by piece to the detriment of the New Zealand economy. ...
Our originating document, theTreaty of Waitangi, was signed on February 6, 1840. An agreement between Māori and the British Crown. Initially inked by Ngā Puhi in Waitangi, further signatures were added as it travelled south. The intention was to establish a colony with the cession of sovereignty to the Crown, ...
Te Whatu Ora Chief Executive Margie Apa leaving her job four months early is another symptom of this government’s failure to deliver healthcare for New Zealanders. ...
The Green Party is calling for the Prime Minister to show leadership and be unequivocal about Aotearoa New Zealand’s opposition to a proposal by the US President to remove Palestinians from Gaza. ...
The latest unemployment figures reveal that job losses are hitting Māori and Pacific people especially hard, with Māori unemployment reaching a staggering 9.7% for the December 2024 quarter and Pasifika unemployment reaching 10.5%. ...
Waitangi 2025: Waitangi Day must be community and not politically driven - Shane Jones Our originating document, theTreaty of Waitangi, was signed on February 6, 1840. An agreement between Māori and the British Crown. Initially inked by Ngā Puhi in Waitangi, further signatures were added as it travelled south. ...
Despite being confronted every day with people in genuine need being stopped from accessing emergency housing – National still won’t commit to building more public houses. ...
The Green Party says the Government is giving up on growing the country’s public housing stock, despite overwhelming evidence that we need more affordable houses to solve the housing crisis. ...
Before any thoughts of the New Year and what lies ahead could even be contemplated, New Zealand reeled with the tragedy of Senior Sergeant Lyn Fleming losing her life. For over 38 years she had faithfully served as a front-line Police officer. Working alongside her was Senior Sergeant Adam Ramsay ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson will return to politics at Waitangi on Monday the 3rd of February where she will hold a stand up with fellow co-leader Chlöe Swarbrick. ...
Te Pāti Māori is appalled by the government's blatant mishandling of the school lunch programme. David Seymour’s ‘cost-saving’ measures have left tamariki across Aotearoa with unidentifiable meals, causing distress and outrage among parents and communities alike. “What’s the difference between providing inedible food, and providing no food at all?” Said ...
The Government is doubling down on outdated and volatile fossil fuels, showing how shortsighted and destructive their policies are for working New Zealanders. ...
The Government’s commitment to get New Zealand’s roads back on track is delivering strong results, with around 98 per cent of potholes on state highways repaired within 24 hours of identification every month since targets were introduced, Transport Minister Chris Bishop says. “Increasing productivity to help rebuild our economy is ...
The former Cadbury factory will be the site of the Inpatient Building for the new Dunedin Hospital and Health Minister Simeon Brown says actions have been taken to get the cost overruns under control. “Today I am giving the people of Dunedin certainty that we will build the new Dunedin ...
From today, Plunket in Whāngarei will be offering childhood immunisations – the first of up to 27 sites nationwide, Health Minister Simeon Brown says. The investment of $1 million into the pilot, announced in October 2024, was made possible due to the Government’s record $16.68 billion investment in health. It ...
New Zealand’s strong commitment to the rights of disabled people has continued with the response to an important United Nations report, Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston has announced. Of the 63 concluding observations of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (UNCRPD), 47 will be progressed ...
Resources Minister Shane Jones has launched New Zealand’s national Minerals Strategy and Critical Minerals List, documents that lay a strategic and enduring path for the mineral sector, with the aim of doubling exports to $3 billion by 2035. Mr Jones released the documents, which present the Coalition Government’s transformative vision ...
Firstly I want to thank OceanaGold for hosting our event today. Your operation at Waihi is impressive. I want to acknowledge local MP Scott Simpson, local government dignitaries, community stakeholders and all of you who have gathered here today. It’s a privilege to welcome you to the launch of the ...
Racing Minister, Winston Peters has announced the Government is preparing public consultation on GST policy proposals which would make the New Zealand racing industry more competitive. “The racing industry makes an important economic contribution. New Zealand thoroughbreds are in demand overseas as racehorses and for breeding. The domestic thoroughbred industry ...
Business confidence remains very high and shows the economy is on track to improve, Economic Growth Minister Nicola Willis says. “The latest ANZ Business Outlook survey, released yesterday, shows business confidence and expected own activity are ‘still both very high’.” The survey reports business confidence fell eight points to +54 ...
Enabling works have begun this week on an expanded radiology unit at Hawke’s Bay Fallen Soldiers’ Memorial Hospital which will double CT scanning capacity in Hawke’s Bay to ensure more locals can benefit from access to timely, quality healthcare, Health Minister Simeon Brown says. This investment of $29.3m in the ...
The Government has today announced New Zealand’s second international climate target under the Paris Agreement, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand will reduce emissions by 51 to 55 per cent compared to 2005 levels, by 2035. “We have worked hard to set a target that is both ambitious ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Housing supply in Australia will be a key battleground in the election campaign. With home ownership more and more out of reach for young and not so young Australians, red tape and low productivity are ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Alexander Korolev, Senior Lecturer in Politics and International Relations, UNSW Sydney The United States and Russia agreed to work on a plan to end the war in Ukraine at high-level talks in Saudi Arabia this week. Ukrainian and European representatives were pointedly ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Karleen Gribble, Adjunct Professor, School of Nursing and Midwifery, Western Sydney University BaLL LunLa/Shutterstock Sleep is the holy grail for new parents. So no wonder many tired parents are looking for something to help their babies sleep. A TikTok trend claims ...
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A closer look at some of the homegrown talent currently commanding television screens around the globe. The new season of The White Lotus hit our screens this week, and with it a familiar face in New Zealand actor Morgana O’Reilly. To secure a role in one of the world’s most ...
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Gilmore Girls, Schitt’s Creek, even The Vampire Diaries – they’re all set in tight-knit neighbourhoods where everyone knows everyone. So what is it like to actually know your neighbours? My favourite television shows are set in tight-knit neighbourhoods where everyone knows everyone. Characters attend town meetings where they debate local ...
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Stats NZ’s head is stepping down over the agency’s failure to safeguard census data, and more officials may soon be in the firing line, writes Catherine McGregor in today’s extract from The Bulletin. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. An ‘absolutely unacceptable’ failure Stats NZ chief ...
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Two long-awaited reports into alleged personal data misuse, centred on census collection and Covid-19 vaccination efforts at Manurewa Marae, were released yesterday. Here’s what you need to know.“Very sobering reading” was how public service commissioner Sir Brian Roche described his organisation’s long-awaited report into the alleged misuse of census ...
Backbench MPs reached new levels of patsy questions in an extraordinarily dull question time on Tuesday. Echo Chamber is The Spinoff’s dispatch from the press gallery, recapping sessions in the House. Columns are written by politics reporter Lyric Waiwiri-Smith and Wellington editor Joel MacManus. “MPs ask questions to explore key issues ...
Wow, quiet here this morning! Did everyone sleep in?
Maybe its broken…
Nope it works, just a relaxed start to the day!
Just sunday. They always start slow. In my case I’m at congress
Hup Oranje!
well done the dutchies.. not a pretty watch but we got there in the end 🙂
Costa Rica missed by a whisker. Tense, exciting, sad for them.
Well no, as far as i can see the first comments were at 5.48am and 6.36 am this morning…
Jenny goes back into moderation for talking about climate change.
Veteran CIA officer destroyed by submitting an official information request
He wanted files which were already declassified by the CIA for release to be actually released.
Note how they dug up details about him going back decades to discredit him, then threatened him with taking away his pension.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/cia-employees-quest-to-release-information-destroyed-my-entire-career/2014/07/04/e95f7802-0209-11e4-8572-4b1b969b6322_story.html?hpid=z5
As mentioned to Phil Ure earlier in the week, the documentary on Aaron Swartz is a worthwhile watch for quite similar reasons. (Aaron Swartz – The Internet’s Own Boy)
He had come to the conclusion that lack of access to free public records and articles creates unnecessary barriers to good solutions. His crime was to download scholarly articles from MIT – which he could do as a Stanford associate – but using batch processes to do it in bulk.
He had done similar with legal documents and performed data analysis on them in the past.
The FBI and the administration decided to make an example of him, and pursued him even as MIT and JSTOR (the article database) did not prosecute.
After his death, the same approach led 15 year old Jack Andraka to come up with a early detection test for pancreatic cancer.
The cost of paywalling or restricting this kind of information is often much higher than that to release it.
Yes thank you for this Molly.
Reminds me of the very recent “open source everything” commentary in The Guardian.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jun/19/open-source-revolution-conquer-one-percent-cia-spy
thanks CV and Molly…very interesting!
I recommend the following link:
http://labornotes.org/blogs/2014/07/them-thats-got-are-them-gets-pikettys-lessons-activists
It has a US-centric view but is equally applicable here.
+1
+100…explains a lot…essentially workers /people should be fighting for laws/rights to allow collective action/bargaining…rights/laws which have eroded in the last 30 years when the unions were smashed
One of the factors behind accelerating climate change.
Dark snow.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jul/05/dark-snow-speeding-glacier-melting-rising-sea-levels
Dark Snow 2014: Why We’re Here (Video)
It’s not just dust that’s darkening the snow.
My wife and I walked on an Icelandic Glacier a couple of years ago and it wasn’t slippery because it was covered in volcanic ash. A nearby guide was not happy to see two Kiwis just walk up as he was preparing his cramp-ons and picks to take a paying group up.
Kiwis tend to do this stuff for themselves eh 🙂
This is only one of the positive feedbacks resulting from the burning of fossil fuels. The others are, methane released from melting permafrost on land and methane released from shallow water clathrates at Sea, the lowered albedo of open ocean over sea ice, and bare rock over glaciers, more warning also releases more water vapor caused by increased evaporation,(Though the jury is still out on this one. Because though atmospheric water vapor is an invisible and powerful green house gas, once condensed as suspended droplets to form clouds, switches from being a positive feedback to a negative feedback)
But added altogether the positive feedbacks greatly out weight the negative feedbacks and could if they continue much longer even overtake the general background warming due to CO2 pollution leading to an unstopplable runaway greenhouse effect, continually compounding and unknowably catastrophic. A chain reaction that quite possibly has no foreseeable end point. (at least, not as far as higher life forms like us and many others are concerned)
The message from all this is, is that the burning of fossil fuels must come to a screeching stop, nothing less will be enough. We need to be standing on the brakes right now. No coasting to a slow stop in 2050 or even 2030, (and which are purely aspirational targets, that allow politicians to avoid having to take action in the here and now).
New Zealand is the best country in the world to lead the way. Just by withdrawing fossil fuel subsidies to Solid Energy and Tiwai we could instantly have a fossil free power grid. As well as that we could become the first country in the world to set an example by becoming completely coal free. We could make these changes almost overnight without hardly any cost in lower living standards.
We could switch $billions set aside for the Roads Of National Significance into public transport. For the same price as the boondoogle that is the Waterview motorway tunnel we could have funded free public transport for Auckland for the next three decades.
(overseas examples have shown that providing city wide fare free public transport as a hassle free public service has got people out of their cars like nothing else, with resulting huge improvements in urban air quality and a complete elimination of traffic congestion. This is not even to mention the boon to the climate.)
‘
From Fare Free New Zealand http://farefreenz.blogspot.co.nz/
How mass protest twinned with political campaigning beat back Motorway Madness in Mangere
Wednesday, September 18, 2013:
Despite the fact that contractors had already started some of the preliminary work on this proposed motorway project, under intense public pressure the tarseal addicts had to back down.
Well day three of congress is off to a good start. Only thing that worries me is that singing of songs of praise to The Judeo Christian God of antiquity. I cannot understand why a political party feels the need to carry out this activity
Maybe its time to move away from such outdated actions.
The Houses of Parliament would be a good place to start.
Speaker: We are honoured to be here in this House to represent the people of Aotearoa New Zealand and pledge each day to commit to the values and the responsibilities of that endeavour. So say we all.
The House: So say we all.
Is it such a crazy idea?
Naturally the pledge would also be said in Te Reo Maori and MPs can respond in either or both.
If someone can add a Te Reo Maori translation it would be appreciated.
Well, I could definitely get in behind this 😈
More seriously – some elements of tradition, incorporating symbolism, continuity and collectivity are necessary secure anchors for a steadfast and outward looking national identity. We need it.
My Mother was an atheist so for her funeral I suggested avoiding hymns but caved in for the sake of the others who were attending. Compromise? Some hymns do have great music though, but the sentiments I can do without. And the sonorous voice of Mr Speaker intoning rubbish irritates.
Went to a young man’s funeral this year, that followed his belief in non-Christian values, and was amazing in it’s recognition of his individual personality and energy. Was appalled to witness a(nother) Maori attendee use the introduction of giving a gift of waiata – to introduce the song “Yes, Jesus loves Me”.
There are so many different songs that acknowledge loss and grief without recourse to any specific religion.
(In saying that I recognise my hypocrisy, one of my internal refrains when dealing with loss comes from the vocal chords of Aaron Neville – a more Christian message is hard to find….)
Hi Molly
Just as a matter of interest what are “non-Christian values”.
Trying – obviously inaccurately – to describe how the memorial service was specific to the individual – who was not Christian – but was a keen boater, and involved in a lot of community learning. His parents read out a letter of reference that they had recently sent off for their son, outlining his learning and achievements over the years. People who had been in contact with him over the years recalled their interactions.
One of the songs was “Sailing” by Rod Stewart – which actually was really lyrically appropriate, and a couple of poems about journeying etc.
It was obvious that care was taken in selection of readings and items, to reflect the beliefs of the young man – which interestingly enough was not the same as his Christian mother. She had in her time of grief, the strength of respect to deliberately choose a memorial service that reflected “his” beliefs and not her own.
The trite offering – of “Yes, Jesus Loves Me” was ill-considered in my mind and the one jarring note of the service. An imposition of personal faith on another’s service. Especially considering the acquaintance of the singer was minimal, and not close.
(Non-Christian was just meant to refer to a lack of Christian references during the service – which probably would have been a better way to refer to it)
That is a pretty bad song in any setting, It certainly would be disowned by many religions with its line ‘The Bible tells me so’ Many Christians would not find that statement very good Theology.
I got a mate who’s a Presbyterian minister to do my wedding, but told him I didn’t want any god stuff. He thought he’d get around that by mentioning Atua all the time. I wasn’t particularly worried because my atheism is more casual than militant. However, in the procedures of government, I don’t think it has any place at all.
something more like this perhaps ?
We are honoured to be here in this House to represent the people of Aotearoa New Zealand and pledge each day to the values and the responsibilities of that endeavour. We commit to govern Aotearoa New Zealand with dignity justice and humility, to respect its past, to work together for its future and to enrich and protect all its people. So say we all.
I’m liking it.
@Colonial viper
But possibly the Speaker would put comment on that as you did on my recent missive. TL;DR.
Yes!!!
Cunliffe is pretty open about his Christian beliefs.
Was at a networking breakfast a couple months back and the speakers were Cunliffe and Parker. Cunliffe spoke at some length about his faith while Parker basically started with “I’m an atheist”
It is my opinion politicians should not try to present other than what they believe, especially their religious views and that is how having a choice of parties in a democracy accommodates religion and its influence upon society. How parties internally and externally deal with religion in that democracy is for them and their members to work out.
I am also strongly of the opinion that Parliament should not, in the administration of its duties and protocols, be seen to show preference or allegiance to one set of beliefs over another.
The protocols of Parliament should reflect the beliefs and traditions of many different groups of NZers.
I’d say the protocols of parliament should leave religion, of all stripes, out in its entirety.
+1
+1
+1
Why would you respect the practice of only the atheists and agnostics in society?
Removing religion from politics =/= atheism.
Politics can’t represent the beliefs and traditions of everyone because some of them are in direct conflict with one an other.
+1 CV @5.2.1.1.1.4
Another way is to include the many beliefs – rather than ignore them all. We need more inclusion rather than further exclusion.
Christianity has around 41,000 different denominations. Each with it’s own varying practices and rites. Are we to include them all?
The ones that don’t condemn others, yes. Most would consider the prayer at the start of parliament decent I am guessing – so they are already included.
I think that the converse – that of banning beliefs – like what has happened to Christmas – (it has fairly well been banned and turned into ‘Season’s Greetings’) – is pretty revoltingly mediocre. More colour, not less, is what I support.
Who said anything about banning beliefs?
The state should in no way support nor reject religious belief. The state should always be a-religious.
I’ve already provided you with an example – the Christmas one – going ‘a religious’ ends up effectively turning into a ban. Yes, ban may be too strong a word for it – yet effectively it removes the influence of belief systems – which by and large provide some very good principles to live by – like ‘treat others as you would have them treat you’
Being non-biased or ‘fair’ is the same reason that Civics isn’t taught in schools – the worry of political influence.
There was a time when they introduced ‘religious instruction’ at school when I was in intermediate – I believe this also went out due to the controversial nature of it created by intolerance of some parents. Like I said, I am not Christian, yet think it was good to have some input that wasn’t solely secular. Being ‘fair’ to all just ends up supporting positivism to the exclusion of other important aspects of human life.
I am suggesting an inclusive approach because I don’t know how else one addresses the issue without excluding everything that isn’t secular. Spiritual belief is important too yet it gets ignored in this manner of not wanting to offend anyone.
I think if Christianity hadn’t weakened as much as it has there wouldn’t be so much difficulties created by dishonesty and corruption that has occurred since the 70’s in economics. People are very vulnerable to manipulation without some form of developed belief system – whether it be Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Paganism or learning philosophical forms of thinking. That is how consumerism has taken such a hold. Rip away belief systems and replace the answer to ‘How do you gain contentment?’ with ‘Buy this, buy that….money, money, money’
What would that leave Blue? Church of England or Anglican (condemns popery) is….gone. Catholic Church (condemns CoE etc) is….gone. Actually, I’d be surprised if a single denomination could be singled out that doesn’t condemn or frown upon another or others to some degree or other. Maybe the Quakers.
Anyway. What is the objection to removing institutional expressions of religion from political institutions again? I couldn’t give a monkey’s flying fuck about an individual’s religious belief or lack thereof. but I do object to religion being injected into politics in any way that could suggest that person a or person b is more or less worthy due to their religion.
“I’ve already provided you with an example – the Christmas one – going ‘a religious’ ends up effectively turning into a ban. Yes, ban may be too strong a word for it – yet effectively it removes the influence of belief systems – which by and large provide some very good principles to live by – like ‘treat others as you would have them treat you’
It isn’t banning, the state has no religion, people have religion but the state doesn’t. And removing the influence of particular belief systems is a good thing. How can the state accommodate all belief systems when many of them are in direct conflict? The state has no place in dictating the terms of religious belief nor favouring one over another.
And those principles you speak of predate every one of our modern religions
@ Bill,
That is why I put that little clause in. To me it is very clear that judging others is very much discouraged by Jesus in the New Testament – however I am well aware that there are Christians out there who do judge – and very severely. These Christians need to decide whether they would prefer to have their beliefs excluded for excluding large swathes of others – whether condemning is a core belief in their belief system – or whether they would prefer their belief to have some formal expression/acceptance in our society.
As for “but I do object to religion being injected into politics in any way that could suggest that person a or person b is more or less worthy due to their religion.”
I don’t see how this relates to what I am supporting? Does this occur? The only example I can think of is that currently the actions, attitudes and propaganda of certain nations may be having that effect on someone stating they are Islamic. This is starting to be moved away from by referring to suicidal bombers & co as having ‘Radical Jihadist’ beliefs rather than Islamic ones.
The main people being held up as more worthy than others are those that place the gathering of wealth above all else – this is one of the reasons I support affirming religious beliefs because I really think there is a correlation between the current belief system of money – and those with it – being valued over anything/ anyone else and the movement to remove religious beliefs from any point where we collect for societal purposes. I suspect we are encouraging “Black-Hole-ism” by doing that; a void of values other than money being upheld.
There is no need for the state to support, encourage or embrace any particular religious belief in order to just. The only way the state can judge effectively and fairly is for it to be totally impartial to all religious beliefs by holding none itself.
Thats odd, I could have sworn this discussion started with you referring to Cunliffe being open about his beliefs and followed by Freedom talking about Parliament:
“I am also strongly of the opinion that Parliament should not, in the administration of its duties and protocols, be seen to show preference or allegiance to one set of beliefs over another.”
When did the discussion start being about the State?
Was that when you decided that it was easier to argue your point if you shifted the topic in such a way? 🙂
Where parliament is the state it is right in that
“Parliament should not, in the administration of its duties and protocols, be seen to show preference or allegiance to one set of beliefs over another.”
If the state, or parliament if you prefer, has a particular religious viewpoint it can no longer be just nor impartial. The state MUST be a-religious to be just.
The “Christian Right” as it stands in the USA is very keen on the Ten Commandments from the Old Testament…they’ll say absolutely nothing about the Beatitudes as taught by Jesus though.
@ Contrarian
Tsk tsk you are not acknowledging my comments very well at all.
The parliament are full of our representatives whom are voted in (or out) on a regular basis and it is parliament that organizes, formulates and pursues political approaches that people vote in.
Parliament is part of the state, yet the state absorbs a much wider range of organizations such as the police, court systems and the military. The state is more static and doesn’t change as readily as parliament.
It is therefore, not a whim of mine that I point out that speaking about parliament is a different topic to speaking about the state.
Are you actually suggesting that if parliament embraces a particular religious belief it wouldn’t translate to nor influence the state?
“Christianity has around 41,000 different denominations.”
Er, 41,000? Where did you get that number from? That’s bizarre.
I am not proposing that parliament takes on a particular religious belief I am suggesting that it is better for parliament to accept/acknowledge all beliefs that are practiced in this country – conditional that they are tolerant of others’.
You fancy naming me the last PM of the UK (mother of all) Parliament(s) who was a practicing Catholic?
Firstly Parliament does accept all beliefs because there are no laws on the books the ban nor curtail anyone’s belief. Because we are a secular society. But if parliament favours one over another then parliament starts to judge some as more important than the other which is not conducive to a fair and equitable governance model.
Vicky:
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2011/12/ChristianityAppendixB.pdf
Exact figures may vary but any government that says “We are Christian” must then answer “What kind?”
I really don’t know where you are getting this ‘judging one over the other’ bit from?
I guess that is true re – no beliefs outlawed, however I thought this discussion was about a view of excluding all beliefs apart from secular ones – which doesn’t seem to be held as a belief by those who hold such a belief – whereas I was arguing it is more fair and equitable to include beliefs rather than exclude all apart from materialism – that way we actually might make some progress on areas such as religious beliefs tend to focus – honorable behaviour, fairness, community, sharing….just a thought….
Secularism is not a belief system.
If not a belief system then what? A philosophy?
What’s the difference?
I think you’re confusing a statement of existence one way or t’other with not making a statement at all.
Agreed. Secularism is not a religion. But just like atheism or scientism proponents can become dogmatic and fundamentalist about their viewpoints.
This is more to do with human nature and the need to be right about making sense of the world, than anything else.
Chris Hedges on secular fundamentalism and the cult of science
http://www.salon.com/2008/03/13/chris_hedges/
existential questions are not the domain of parliament.
Are questions of morality and of right and wrong the domain of Parliament?
Perhaps I misunderstand what secularism means.
I understand it to be about the separation of religious and public life rather than anything to do with theism or atheism.
CV:
nope. parliament fulfills the wishes of the electorate.
felix: separation is not a belief system or philosophy. It’s simply a method of ensuring that government does not raise one magic book above all others.
re your comment Felix:
Wikipedia has this:
“Secularism is the principle of the separation of government institutions and persons mandated to represent the state from religious institutions and religious dignitaries.”
It goes on to say:
I don’t have much objection at all to the concept of ‘not being ruled by religion’ And I like the definition where it is saying ‘without actively dismissing or criticizing religious belief.’ I like this – it is not shutting out the possibilities of other belief-systems.
My objection comes in when I get the sense that things are tipping toward a dogmatic requirement for non-belief; where anything other than materialistic values are no-go areas – as the article CV provided touched on – where it becomes about not expressing any religiosity/non-materialistic/unprofane beliefs.
For example I don’t think it is very good if schools can’t provide any religious instruction because some of the population can’t stand other belief-systems – I would prefer that there is more acceptance than a rigid materialistic attitude toward life. Perhaps this could be a decision for the parents at each school? If enough parents approve then religious instruction can be allotted some time. As the Contrarian said somewhere in this Open Mike -and I agree with – that some people don’t require additional religious/spiritual input – however some do and benefit greatly from such, so why are those that have no requirement taking precedence?
What is ending up occurring is only the ‘lowest common denominator’ is ‘allowed’ and this turns out to be materialism and non-belief. The message becomes anything other than this is a no-go area/side issue. I don’t think it is for many and I don’t think this is the best outcome at all.
Ahhhhh, if only it were to be, one day soon perchance.
I believe the term is “aspirashunil” 🙂
I am part of a long standing tradition of ignoring long standing traditions and I insist that my tradition be represented along with all the others.
Fine, we’ll have the polies only standing for the first half of the oath.
lolz 😀
@ Felix lol oh dear me no you kind of explain the point pretty succinctly there.
…how about only drop the beliefs that refuse to tolerate others’ beliefs? A government needs to incorporate all of society – a belief that excludes some isn’t one a government can pursue. A belief that aims at forgiveness, nonjudgmental-ness, love and compassion – for example Christianity before the twerps start re-interpreting it – seems pretty compatible with community spirit – which is really what government represents isn’t it? Most religions can be interpreted in similar ways – and then most religions have intolerant offshoots created by small-minded bigots – so should the religion be interpreted with the best interpretation? Or simply be characterized by the way The Bigots reinterpret it?
I like the prayer at the start of parliament.
I am not a Christian.
“A government needs to incorporate all of society”
And it does so by not weighing any particular religious belief against any other. It does so by being secular and by making no ruling in favour of one religion over another.
Do you mean like the conservatives don’t expouse Christianity and impose it on national?, or an actual secular society?
Hi Contrarian,
You can ignore the arguments I provide – yet I would prefer that you admit that is what you are doing. I am stating that the best way to be impartial is not to ‘make everything secular’ it is to be inclusive of all the beliefs that exist in our country.
I have already provided fairly long comments as to why I believe this is the better way to be impartial.
So in the case of Northern Ireland – should the state come down on the side of the Catholics or the Protestants? New Zealand now has a majority of people not identifying with Christianity – where should the state stand in relation to this?
The state cannot endorse, promote nor ban any religious belief. The only way the state can be an impartial judge to all of its citizens is to hold all views as equal, therefore having no view itself.
Well like I said above – I really wasn’t arguing re the state – I was arguing re parliament. And if you were reading my comments you might have been able to work out that I would view that Irish parliament would have to acknowledge both beliefs – if the formal version of those beliefs were prepared to be tolerant of the other.
“The state cannot endorse, promote nor ban any religious belief. The only way the state can be an impartial judge to all of its citizens is to hold all views as equal, therefore having no view itself.”
Sure a state can. It can endorse one religious belief over another by acknowledging one over another. It can promote a belief by doing much the same – such as promoting valuing money over any other belief by ignoring all other beliefs other than that of valuing money or being aggressively neutral on the matter apart from that of the value of money. And a state can certainly ban a religious belief by creating laws that deal out punishments for certain beliefs – such as the one about believing it is o.k. to kill others. (Such a belief incurs punishment) If a state had knowledge of only one belief – it would not be capable of being impartial because those with that one belief would immediately receive more understanding than those of other beliefs.
So which belief do you think parliament should endorse? Which one of the 41000 denominations of Christianity should the state support? Which of the three major Abrahamic religions should the government judge to be more important than the other? Christians the world over eat beef but Hindus would find the idea repugnant. Should we ban bacon? How about Leviticus? Do we ban the wearing of mixed cloth? Or the eating of shellfish? Is polygamy is acceptable? How about death to homosexuals? If the parliament endorses Christianity say good-bye to your freedom of speech.
Gees Mary (she was quite contrary, so I thought that name might fit),
Inclusiveness doesn’t require judging or endorsing one belief as better than another it simply requires acknowledging it.
So now we hit the same quandary I have mentioned several time now – the state/govenrment/Parliament (whatever you like) cannot include every religious viewpoint because some are directly in opposition to others. Therefore the state/govenrment/Parliament must be a-religious. Only in being a-relgious can it be just to all viewpoints, and inclusive of all view-points.
I don’t think that is a decision for you to make Contrarian, I think that is up to the religious belief’s organisation to decide whether they are prepared to value intolerance over all their other principles. I do not believe that every religious person is intolerant of other religions – only some sects of certain religions are that hung up on intolerance.
Well if not a Christian why on earth would you want an Anglican Prayer out of BCP that is Three hundred 70 years old.
or for that matter why any prayer. A Prayer by its name is a plea or petition to the almighty God. If he listened at all it would be surprising he certainly has given no evidence that he has ever acted upon the petition.
Leave him out, replace it with a statement similar t what we proposed earlier in discussion or just say This session of Parliament is now open
“I’d say the protocols of parliament should leave religion, of all stripes, out in its entirety.”
I have just been reading the last 10-15 or so comments and feeling that the left really wants to exclude people such as me…
Thank you for reminding me why I haven’t read the Standard for over a year… 🙁
Is good to see you back, by the way, Vicky32.
Considering I have been arguing to include all beliefs – I can’t understand where you are coming from in your comment here. What do you mean?
I made my comment before seeing yours, Blue Leopard… as a Christian, I felt very excluded. It’s always bothered me that Standardistas seem to, most of them, despise religion. They also seem not to understand that many leftists are Christian (or Muslim) and conversely, many Christians and Muslims are left leaning – as this is absolutely NOT the USA! (Where you would never find that)
Yes, it is a shame re people ‘despising religion’ – it would appear also that some such types do not see the detrimental effects of ‘aggressive secularism’.
Interesting what you say because I have a relative who is a strongly committed Christian and I was discussing how I didn’t understand why Christians are voting right in US (I see left-wing values as far closer aligned with Christian beliefs – or any religion I know of – for that matter!) this conversation informed me how off-putting the secularism expressed by Helen Clark was for that person- (she did something like cancel Christmas carol singing in schools?). I can’t say I think this was a good move for any reason – yet especially not if it alienates good people.
Perhaps what you express is more widespread than ‘secularists’ would care to believe?
“Perhaps what you express is more widespread than ‘secularists’ would care to believe?”
I think so! (This board used to have a good quote function, it’s a pity it’s gone). I remember being very surprised when I saw my non-Christian son say on a website called h2g2 years ago, to a person in the US or UK, I can’t remember which, that the religious right scarcely even existed here, and that most religious people here are leftists. I was surprised, because I had taken him to church with me until he was 17 and didn’t want to attend, and I didn’t think he had even noticed! But he had…
🙂
I think you are talking about the “aggressive intolerance” that many people seem to think their particular beliefs, or lack of them, justify.
It mystifies me how many otherwise intelligent people believe in things when their is absolutely no evidence to support their belief, but I accept it as one of the mysteries of life. And there are many religious people who do a lot of good. Equally there are many who are intolerant and “holier than though”.
All of the worlds religions have similar positions on how to treat others, as do atheists and humanists.
It is a pity that many “Christians” “Muslims” and others do not listen to their own religions teachings.
I do not have a problem with inclusiveness, just bigotry and intolerance.
“It is a pity that many “Christians” “Muslims” and others do not listen to their own religions teachings.”
It is also a pity that some of them listen to their own religious teachings. For example the 10 Commandments explicitly reject freedom of speech, association and expression – fundamental human rights.
Mmm Considering the Anglican Church is often called the Tory Party at Prayer it is understandable that many people of the left do not want a religion associated with all that things that they want to escape from. Yes you could replace the C of E with some other brand of religion but then you come up with which one? Someone once showed me some stats about the number of Catholics as a proportion of population as compared with their representation in the House. It was way way out of whack and one would have to wonder why so many of that religion find them self elected to parliament. I do not imagine that the situation has improved which may indicate why we have been so slow to make changes to legislation that catholics are opposed to. Eg Birth Control, Abortion, getting the taxpayer to fund their brand of religious schools for starters.
The only answer that I can see is that we remove all religion from Parliament and the School system. If people want to follow a certain religion that is heir business but not via tax funded institutions. We now have reportedly the Conservative Party Owner holding prayer meetings at work. I wonder how many atheists he employs. We have the Sallies now deciding who will get housing assistance. This organisation that presented a very large petition that wanted Homosexual people to continue to be imprisoned and punished for falling in love with a same sex person. I wonder how many gay people will get housing assistance from Salvation Army.
OF course I could be just paranoid but I would prefer that all dealings with the public social welfare or education or whatever be handled by public servants and not religious groups.
end of rant
WE
“The only answer that I can see is that we remove all religion from Parliament and the School system”
AFAIK, it’s already been removed from the school system – unless there’ve been changes to the Education Act that I don’t know about!
Nice of you to pop by Vicky32. It appears that some cannot accept the importance of spirituality and/or religion and/or faith in the life and wellbeing of a healthy people.
Yes, you are right, Colonial Viper… I am back as the election is coming up, and I am on tenterhooks! 🙂
Good to see you again Vicky32, like many here, I will be looking forward to your thoughts as the election lumbers near
p.s. you made a comment above about a quote function
– what function do you refer to?
“p.s. you made a comment above about a quote function
– what function do you refer to?”
Something for the non-html users among us, it was a clickable set of quote marks that would but what one cited in an offset box…
It also appears that some cannot accept that others don’t require spirituality and/or religion and/or faith in order to be healthy people.
lol
Oh yay vicky is back. I guess it’s time to start the countdown.
Oh ye of little faith 😛
Exclusion is never part of my general outlook on life so don’t give up just yet Vicky32.
The reach of the idea’s intent is not to eradicate peoples’ beliefs from NZ politics.
I have written a more complete explanation of the off the cuff comments that appeared to be the catalyst of this interesting little excursion people went on today.
I am awaiting some Te Reo translation work and should have it all ready for general consumption later in the week. I will submit it as a guest post and if those that decide these things toss it back, I will put it into Open mike in the near future. Not exactly a topic that is critically urgent but still ….
Sooner or later this country will be having the big Republic dialogue for real and this very topic is going to be a part of that discussion. No reason we can’t jump a little ahead on the agenda 🙂
CV, how does the current House Prayer [not sure of its title] that is read in the House every sitting day, achieve that?
Indeed – pretty sure it doesn’t.
I didn’t hear that interview, but would I be right in thinking that his emphasis would be on the ethical and humanitarian teachings that are a part of a religious upbringing? That’s what I hear coming from him – a position, as a minister’s kid myself, I can clearly identify with. He is certainly not, if you look back at the way he has voted and the liberal beliefs he espouses, a conventional, moralistic and conservative christian in the way right-wing god-botherers have taught us to think is normal nowadays. It’s hard to think of anyone furtherer away from the likes of, say, Colin Craig or Brian Tamaki.
@ TheContrarian…..Christianity can be pretty broad …from the right wing war mongering , sexist , homophobic ,fascist fundamentalists to the liberation theologians …to the postmodern symbolic and non- literalist Gnostic mystic Christians…to the atheist humanist Christian theologians and priests like Don Cuppitt and Lloyd Geering…to the eco-theologians like Catholic Priest Thomas Berry and postmodernist Carol P. Christ…to the radical feminist gay theologians like Professor Mary Daly…to the Pacifist Christians
..Christianity is a broad church…and I would think that David Cunliffe would be of the enlightened liberal end of the spectrum
…i have huge respect for some Christians…so good on David Cunliffe for being open about his beliefs!…i doubt he will try and impose them on people
How low can Paula Bennett sink. She now wants all women who have been abused by Rolf Harris to come forward and lay a complaint because she wants them all ‘to feel safe’. Maybe she could refer them to a Rape Crisis Centre. There is nothing sincere about that woman. Fancy trying to use these women for political gain. She is an absolute poor example of womanhood. Nothing to recommend her at all.
She’s milking it – ie. Maggie Barry’s experience – for everything she can. Disgusting!!!
Or trying to grab headlines of distraction Anne?
hasnt John Key’s National destroyed a lot of financial support for counselling services for rape and sexual abuse victims, particularly child victims?
…this would be a good question for Paula Bennett in the House ?…she needs to be put on the spot over nationals record here!
Chooky. Yes, that was going to be my point in my comment above but forgot in my anger. Christchurch closed for want of $30.000.00!
And is she going to extend her ’embrace’ (spit) to include the girl attacked by the Malaysian ‘Diplomat’. Or any of the hundreds of women who are living in terror on a daily basis.
Or is her help only being given to victims of attacks by celebrities.
And how is she going to ‘keep them safe’. Perhaps because it’s easy to say that when he is already in jail. Anyway, what did she think he was going to do. Stalk them all???
Sorry…………… She makes my blood boil.
ffloyd +100…it is deserving of great anger
“Or is her help only being given to victims of attacks by celebrities.”
Too broad a category there, ffloyd, clearly it’s only for women who can connect with Maggie Barry.
As for those who have put themsleves in the path of non-famous abusers – well, it’s far too expensive and time consuming to deal with their experiences! /sarc.
Poorer Benefit is amoral. Her type of thinking has just closed a rapeline in Christchurch, the suffering city. Her type of behaviour has caused suffering to thousands of women and men under punitive stupid policies still called ‘welfare’ I think.
Now Rolf Harris is to be a focus of blame and a deflector of attention while she goes on her merry way doing with legislation and systems what Rolf Harris did with his eager fingers, and both blatant abusers of people.
+1
Well said.
“How low can Paula Bennett sink.”? Bit of a silly question really. She can go totally subterranean. It’s only a load of sorta spin sorta doctors and sorta re sorta imagers that sorta keep her above ground (sorta) giggle giggle.
I think half her problem is that she makes pigshit look gifted. The other half is that she is nasty to the core. Once she’s surrounded by the intellectual prowess of the NAct caucus, this type of garbage will flow freely.
I can go with that. Would like to say something along the lines of ,,, and govern with justice and humility to enrich and protect all people of New Zealand.
I would like to see a statement that is inclusive and binding on such governments.
thanks Ron, have amended it here http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-06072014/#comment-845166
A minute of silence. That IMO is probably the best way to open Parliament.
Couple of hours of it might be nice
McIvor nee Woodham – I salute thee for your opinion piece Herald online this morning, part of which reads:
“And it’s appalling McCully’s first call was to grovel to John Key for putting his boss in it, rather than apologise to the alleged victim of the sexual assault. Typical, but appalling.”
Appalling ? Too right ! But “Typical” ?
Typical – of McCully ? Can’t be. McCully’s not alone in this.
Typical – of Key ? “First, you’ll apologise to ME”. Well, it’s been happening.
Conclusion – McIvor nee Woodham, your “Typical” points up that the first imperative in addressing dysfunction in governance is grovelling, abject mea culpa before the very man whose conceited distaste for “higher standards” founds that very dysfunction. And while we’re on the topic of immunity – for GodKey, immunity from any responsibility ever.
McIvor nee Woodham, you nearly cracked it mate but a mere Freudian slip does not merit a 21 gun salute. That said I appreciate how the prospect of the 22nd gun terrifies the shit out of you. Sterling jono’ you.
@ North
McIvor nee Woodham (aka goodtime gal-oh-but-that-was-a-long-long-time-ago) replies: ‘ How very dare you call me “mate”! I’m ABOVE you and don’t you EVER forget it or I’ll just have to show you who’s boss’ (Hog).
McIvor nee Woodham says that because she has a platform to do so (now). She was hideous (before ‘now’), and she’s hideous now.
ooooo Tim – you pig! No – it’s just that there are some (Kerry, Pulla Bent, and others) that will get my respect the minute they show respect for others. So far, they’re incapable, and I don’t hold out much hope for their future. Usually I ignore them and thank Christ I haven’t had the displeasure of having had to listen to McIvor (nee Woodham)’s voluptuous presence (in body and spirit) for fekkin years
sauce for gooses, source for ganders and all that
The gal’s a riot ! Bubble Bubbles Bubbles…….of the cheapo variety Richmond Road Countdown. Except when she’s at the BBQs in Parnellynellynelly.
Q&A has just finished.
Didn’t catch his name but was disgusted at the panel member who was supposed to be championing the Left. He spent the entire session rubbishing Labour. His analysis was shallow and stupid. Not once did he acknowledge there had been a smear campaign against Cunliffe and Labour… he just blamed Cunliffe for everything. He chastised Cunliffe for not talking about policy during his interview with Corin Dann – ignoring the fact the interviewer sets the questions and naturally all Dann wanted to talk about was moas, being sorry for being a man and the West Coast tree felling controversy. He also dammed Cunliffe for not discussing Labour’s Education policy during the interview. Isn’t Cunliffe announcing a major Education policy plank this afternoon? Did he expect Cunliffe to reveal it on Q&A?
Add the voice of the woman standing in for the Right and a fence sitting “political scientist” and it was one massive anti-Labour talk-fest. The worst I’ve seen thus far!
To the point where I’m satisified that it derived from a determined, unabashed editorial pose.
Who was the putative lefty ?
@ Anne I think they said he was a Labour party communications expert… and then he went on the entire time about how appalling labour’s communications strategy and delivery was.
I agree it was astounding.
I didn’t hear anything about a L.P. communications expert, but the opening claim was that he is a Labour Party member. That being the case, I am considering a formal complaint to the NZ Council with a view to having his membership suspended at the least…
The worst experience was the look of joy on the faces of Susan Wood and the wholly unlikable right wing panel member. They couldn’t wait to make the most of it. Wood made no attempt to balance any of his claims which is part of her role as the Current Affairs host. She’s a disgrace!
Actually Wood did mention to Quin words to the effect of: ‘you are supposed to be hear to stick up for/ speak for Labour/Left’. (shoot – I can’t remember it very accurately, sorry)
It was pretty good that she said that – at least she provided a heads up that something was imbalanced about the discussion because the person put on to speak ‘for’ left wing interests wasn’t doing much other than shaft Cunliffe.
Yes, she said that blue leopard, but from recollection she gave him one of her “lovely” smiles as she said it.
His name is Phil Quinn, (am just watching the hour-later version)
A google search on that name brings up a website for an Irish Medium with the same name …(who looks a lot like the guy on Q&A 😐 )….and also lots of Kiwiblog pages that quote someone of that name….
….??….
Thanks blue leopard. I’m going to see if I can find out more about who he is, but if anyone knows anything could they let us know? Thanks in advance.
Sorry Anne I spelt that wrong – it is Quin (not Quinn) here are some links, which I presume are written by him:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11266928
http://www.pundit.co.nz/blogs/philquin
and Q&A facebook refers to him as @philquin
That’s enough for me. Left wing commentator? My Aunt Betty’s bloomers!!! He’s an arrogant right wing hack who pretends to be left wing. That explains his anti-Cunliffe tirade on Q&A.
North is right. A determined, unabashed editorial pose. Who is the Q&A producer? Think he/she may be going to get an earful from me.
Yeah its getting a bit much – starting to feel I won’t be bothering with watching political programs and even the cheap criticisms here on the Standard toward Labour are starting to get my goat; criticisms of Labour are increasingly appearing like direct reflections of the tone being set by the massive spin in the media.
People need to really check what their views are based on with the level of unadulterated propaganda going on in this country just now.
This is exactly how it works isn’t it? Poor political commentary full of bias and exaggeration puts people off politics so much that they neither feel like becoming more informed (if they do there is nowhere to go without having to trawl through mindless critique from people who have been brainwashed) nor do many people end up feeling like voting at all.
I agree, blue leopard, I can see no point in watching/hearing any more of it unless it’s to follow a variation of ‘keep you friends close and your enemies closer’. I just find it depressing that their are so many stupid or naïve journos and commentators around prepared to sell their souls in this way. You can see how easy it is for dictatorships and other obnoxious regimes to rise up, even in so-called first-world countries, when there are so many sycophants around prepared to make the outrageous seem normal in this way
+100 exactly JanM exactly!
When I was younger, after reading books about/set in the war, I was particularly fascinated with what you just mentioned – how obnoxious leaders/regimes got the support they did… like in WWII Germany – I guess I’ve witnessed the answers to my childhood curiosity. It is atruly sad spectacle to behold.
Yes, I hesitated to give that as an example in case it seemed overly dramatic, but it is what I had in mind, of course. Scary really – shows just how thin the line really is!
I am glad you persevered in using that example – because for me it nailed it. And you expressed something that has been bubbling under the surface of my awareness for a while – and reading what you wrote cheered me up…as perverse as that may sound.
Hmm to put it another way – I think you provided astute and insightful analysis to what is occurring by using that example – and I enjoy when people share their insights. 🙂
This article may help.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10716608
Looks like he is a a bit of a Rogernome that worked with the right wing of the Labour Party in the 1990s.
OMG Karen. Just read it. Am in the process of putting my eyes back into their sockets.
You’re dead right. And they have him on Q&A representing the political Left?
Yeah, Phil Quin was active with the Right-leaning Mike Moore faction during the 90s. Very much supportive of Rogernomics (at least in his younger days). Ran Phil Goff’s numbers for him during various attempts to topple Clark as leader before the 96 Election.
Also champions the idea that the NZ Labour Party should adopt the formal factionalism of their Aussie counterparts. I think it’s fair to say that Phil does enjoy – possibly revels in – having a bit of go at the Left of the Party (as well as the broader political Left outside the Party). So, I think there’s quite a bit of antipathy there.
From memory, he worked for a while as an advisor to Aussie Foreign Affairs Minister Gareth Evans. Very much at the Establishment/Neo-Liberal end of the Party, although, to be fair, he has, at times, sounded quite progressive and Social Democratic – particularly when having a go at the Nats.
The one thing I will say for him is that he knows his shit when it comes to the dark arts of extracting a winning strategy from a few shavings of the electoral vote. He has that gut instinct – from organising local campaigns in Aussie Elections, particularly, it seems, in Victoria – about what gets the punters into the polling booths. And, along with my good self, he was the only one that realised things were gonna be close in the 2010 Mana By-Election. So, he’s a long way from me politically (in fact, I seem to remember at one point he called me “a Trot” because I wasn’t entirely ruling out voting Matt McCarten in the Mana by-Election), but I do have a certain amount of respect for his campaign nous.
Who is this Phil Quin?
According to the National Business Review Phil Quin is “ a former adviser for the NZ and Australia labour parties and a strategic communications consultant”.
Some of his work:
NZ Herald: The anatomy of a failed Labour coup
9:22 AM Saturday Apr 2, 2011 Fifteen years ago, Helen Clark stared down a party coup mounted by her eventual successor, Phil Goff. But her victory came at a huge price for Labour. Phil Quin, one of the plotters, offers an insider’s account.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10716608
Phil Quin: Jump to left puts Labour on rocky road
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11266928
http://www.pundit.co.nz/content/how-internet-mana-could-help-national-reach-50
National Business Review: OPINION: Thirty Percent Doctrine dooms Labour
http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/opinion-thirty-percent-doctrine-dooms-labour-157760
WhaleOil:
http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/06/phil-quin-dotcoms-pets-actually-help-national/
He says he’s a member of the Labour Party. Not for long, I hope.
He calls himself Phil Quin. I call him Phil Quisling. I also call him Scab.
Here’s his twitter thingie: @philquin
Exactly, Anne!
I was strangely propelled into some kind of alternate reality between how composed, assured and articulate Mr Cunliffe was during a provocative, hostile interview (not designed to shed any light on policy whatever) and the panels’ summation.
Can someone please explain? (seriously) !
lprent
How can a duplicate comment show up? Usually a wee sign pops up and prevents.
mm!!..cruelty-free cheese..!
..there’s a winner..!
“..Biohackers making ‘real vegan cheese’..”
“..Real Vegan Cheese is a not a cheese substitute!
It all begins with regular old baker’s yeast.
Through synthetic biology – we engineer our yeast to become milk-protein factories –
These milk proteins are then combined with water – vegan sugar – and oil –
(cont..)
http://boingboing.net/2014/07/05/biohackers-making-real-vegan.html
Was it the ‘bio-Hacker’ title that got you drooling Phillip, flew straight into your little fantasy world imagining a secret group of underground cheese makers did you,
Why not just make vegan cheese out of soy milk and save all the absolute frigging bullshit, don’t even need get into any of that cloak and dagger bio-hacking stuff,
Just Google for the recipes…
What is vegan sugar? I could google it of course, but where is the fun in that?
most sugar uses bones as a filter..in the manufacturing process..
Dr. Margaret Sparrow is a very great New Zealander !…along with Elsie Locke who fought for Family Planning and Ettie Rout
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/2602322/margaret-sparrow-rough-on-wimmin
Margaret Sparrow chronicles the experiences of 19th-Century New Zealand women who had managed to obtain abortions. Her new book ‘Rough on Wimmin – Abortion in 19th Century NZ’ explores the dangers, risks, prejudices and pre-conceptions of the day that befell those women who became pregnant out of wedlock.
Feminist and academic Rachel Brown also needs a mention for her research on which Margaret Sparrow bases her book
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsie_Locke
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ettie_Annie_Rout
http://abortionwiki.org/index.php?title=Margaret_Sparrow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sparrow
Dr. Margaret Sparrow honours pioneer sexual health activist Ettie Rout. Both these great women have braved controversy and opprobrium and saved lives… . Ettie Rout was honoured in France but neglected in New Zealand
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/local-papers/the-wellingtonian/7766412/Dames-grave-mission
I heard that interview Chooky, Margaret Sparrow has done much for NZ women and the country and the brave and determined doctors and supporters of abortion rights, men and women.
thanx greywarbler…she is a wonderful woman doctor for her compassion and resilience and intelligence and her fight for justice for all women to control their fertility and determine their lives ….. a truly great New Zealander!
just back from door knocking in karori. actually being positive and not just a crappy slogan. Surprisingly strong support from people who say they used to vote Labour but cannot vote for a man who is ashamed to be a man. This. is the show me the money turning point of 2014. Bring back Shearer.
more fake twitter followers for the keyster, eh…
just back from door knocking in Epsom actually being a crappy slogan and not just positive; Surprisingly strong support from people who say they used to vote National but cannot vote for a man who is ashamed to be honest. This is the show me a perk busting turning point of 2011. Bring back Rodney Hide.What???
I see your arse not working all out your mouth again FazzyUnus.
The turning point Fisiani is, imo, cutting class sizes. This has mass appeal. Men who react like that were probably not left voters anyway, concern troll, not convincing.
Actually all the comments regarding distaste for The Cunliffe’s false shame came from women in West Karori.
Actually all the comments regarding distaste for Key’s lack of shame came from men in West Epsom
find that hard to believe…sure you weren’t just visiting your NACT friends ?
lol! that sound like it would be closer to the truth Chooky!
He’s got no NAct friends. They all facepalm whispering asides about what a try hard he is. I got lots of NAct friends. They all tell me that. Laughing stock. They’re glad we got him here on TS.
sunday morning funnies.
prove you were in Karori this morning.
You are just a figment of Hootons imagination.
here to make trouble.
you worse than a moran!
xactly.
“fisiani” has never left the office.
Given that proven liar fisiani claimed the other day to be doorknocking in Hutt South, his move to Karori strongly suggests that National are desperate for activists. Or he’s lying again. Or both.
Still, you’ve got to admire Fizzy’s strenuous attempts at authenticity. He knows that Labour strategists know that Karori West is the ( slightly ) Left-leaning area of the otherwise relatively Blue suburb of Karori. He’s clearly determined to get under Labour’s skin any way he can. The bloke’s displaying a certain amount of tenacity on this. My guess is he’ll be talking about a middle-of-the road suburb in the Mana Electorate next – I’m picking Linden or possibly Pukerua Bay.
What’s a moran??????
[lprent: that… ]
At the Labour conference afternoon session. There are about a thousand seats in the floor of the Michael Fowler, According to the Labour staff here, at least 800 seats are filled. Looks about right.
A great speech from David. Mr Key and Whaleoil will be scratching in their dirt piles to try and negate David’s message. Fat hope!
Not people who think positive. Negative smearers usually.
That was a very good speech by David Cunliffe. Most of the policy has been previewed earlier.
But he announced that the money that National was putting into overpaid part-time principals will go instead into employing 2000 more teachers. That will reduce class sizes.
Everything that I have seen says that smaller class sizes works.
Good. Paying people more for just doing their job seems like a useless idea to me. If there are cruddy teachers out there, then they just need to be either taught to do better or they should leave the profession. If they are burnt out, then just reducing the class sizes will help.
Dropping National’s pointless paperwork nightmare of “National’s standards” will help a lot in reducing the amount of burnout.
and timely..re dropping of national standards..
..that is also about to happen in britain..
..for the self-same reasons..
Just wondering if Billy Shorten was the right person to cuddle up with so close to David’s meeting with Women’s Refuge.
US profoundly upset about this but what are they doing about this?
‘
How to offend friends and influence politicians
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/04/us/politics/john-holdrens-influence-seen-in-obama-policies.html
“Mr. Holdren’s zeal, and his tendency to present somewhat alarming visions of the future, have stirred controversy….”
Maori stuck in protest mode — Sharples
Wow, the arrogance in this one is strong.
Gimme protest consciousness ahead of lazy biddable fat arse at someone else’s tepu. This is how Peter Peter ShonKey Eater rationalises his abject failure ? More sneering at Maori ? Incredible !
Yeah, that’s how I read it. He’s been fèted and dined at National’s table and now thinks that the way thing are is fine – no matter what damage it does to his people.
WTF Paddy Gower interview of Cunliffe from earlier on in the Labour congress – just saw this – that Jonolist is a horrible little NAT weasel completely uninterested in serving the public. Hope he loses his access to the PM’s office in September.
Paddy’s tactics appears to be make Cunliffe focus on the small picture, the minutiae and the trivial
http://www.3news.co.nz/Interview-Labour-leader-David-Cunliffe/tabid/1356/articleID/351533/Default.aspx
Poor Paddy is still obsessed with trivia like tongue in cheek Moa humour and his imaginary past Abcs. There are bigger issues but he doesn’t seem to understand why we have elections.
Actually I think Cunliffe enjoyed it CV. Paddy Gower was playing the devil’s advocate and Cunliffe knew it. There was a 12 minute sparring match and David won. His best line was quoting Gower’s producer who was complimentary about Labour’s policy planks and that left Paddy chortling.
Yeah I noticed that one. And I was very interested that Gower questioned Cunliffe on being too light blue. But Paddy missing all those chances to put PM aspirant Cunliffe on the spot about serious stuff, instead of trying to force DC to stay on small picture soap opera dramatics.
a moran is something that begins with f and ends with i and votes national.
Such a pity that the New Zealand government does not take the same care for its citizens as the Japanese government.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11288704
Herald bias watch.
Note is is the Japanese who are accused of taking ”the hard line” rather than New Zealand as they slavishly follow the neo-liberal policies of large corporates.