Open mike 06/09/2015

67 comments on “Open mike 06/09/2015 ”

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1. Saarbo 1

   6 September 2015 at 7:05 am

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11508551

   John Key gives no sign yet of third-term blues (NZH)

   I will explain to NZH why Key still rates so highly, despite Dirty Politics, Sabin, Flag Flop, denying Refugees, denying help for NZ’s vulnerable, Starving kids, Auckland Housing Crisis, Regions going down the plughole….

   Claire Trevatt,
   John Armstrong,
   Mike Hosking,
   Patrick Gower,
   Duncan Garner (possibly more stupid than biased)

   Media not holding POWER to account.
   • mickysavage 1.1

     6 September 2015 at 7:47 am

     As someone said on Twitter they were not aware that the Herald was allowing Mike Hosking to write editorials …
     • David H 1.1.1

       6 September 2015 at 1:17 pm

       They do look like they were penned by Hosking. Either that or My 4 year old has a hobby I don’t know about.
   • CnrJoe 1.2

     6 September 2015 at 7:54 am

     And JKs unassailable core voter base. .the aspirational bbq beer mate immovable low-information well-conned core vote. Nothing can shift the fanbois of the SunGodKeyreep in chief.
   • Barbara 1.3

     6 September 2015 at 8:29 am

     I suggest its bigger than that – the wealthy media baron/s who own the newspapers and airways are dictating the tune and “leading” the writers with their subject content – the writers/ radio talkback hosts etc obviously have no moral compass and do what they’re told or they lose their positions and fat paychecks – all round the situation is pretty hopeless – we need the old fashioned underground newspapers to reappear and to just stick to the internet for informed comment and news. The Herald is bleeding subscribers so there is hope out there people are waking up. The Listener is going the same way with its life style content – people will only take so much of this rubbish we are are offered before they turn off and cancel out out of it.
   • Hami Shearlie 1.4

     6 September 2015 at 12:22 pm

     Can’t disagree at all Saarbo!
   • swordfish 1.5

     6 September 2015 at 5:12 pm

     Right, well, let’s subject that Herald on Sunday analysis to a bit of critical scrutiny, shall we.

     The Editorial suggests that “This Prime Minister is completing the first year of his third term more popular than any at the same stage in our lifetime…..Helen Clark (as Bryce Edwards notes)…..was on the back foot by this time.”

     And

     “Key is sailing through his seventh year of office…..still as popular as ever. He had 64% support in the latest Herald-DigiPoll survey and National was on 51%, remarkable by any historical comparison.”

     So, there are four rather sweeping claims being made:

     (1) National is still as popular as it has ever been since winning office in 2008

     (2) National’s / the Government’s current support (a year out from their third Election win) is significantly higher than that enjoyed by any previous third term government at a similar point in New Zealand political history (“remarkable by any historical comparison / more popular than any at the same stage in our lifetime”).

     (3) On 64% Preferred PM, Key is still as popular as he has ever been.

     (4) Key (favoured by almost two-thirds of voters) is more popular than Helen Clark – and indeed any former PM – was at this stage in their third term.

     Reality:

     (1) First thing I’d say about taking a comparative approach to National’s current and previous support is you need to look at all the recent polls, not just the Herald-DigiPoll. The 5 polls taken in the last couple of months have the Nats on 43, 47, 47, 51, 51.

     Compare these current figures with where they were a year on from their first victory in 2008 – 57, 52, 54, 58, 60

     Since the 2008 Election, the Nats have received more than 51% support (ie more than their current apex) in a grand total of 92 opinion polls / they’ve taken 54% or more in 51 polls / and 56% or more in 23 polls.

     So, I wouldn’t quite agree with the HoS that they’re as popular now as they’ve ever been. Looking at recent polls, I’d say the Nats aren’t too far away from where they were throughout most of 2012-2013. Which was a low point for them. Almost always in the 40s but, just now and then, making it to 51%.

     (2) Because the Left/Oppo bloc vote (and poll support) is so dispersed between Labour, the Greens and NZF (unlike the Right/Govt bloc vote / poll support which coalesces tightly around National), we really need to compare current Government poll support…..with poll support for the Governing parties of the third term Clark Administration.

     National Government support a year on from third election victory (polls of last couple of months):
     45, 48, 48, 53, 52

     Labour Government support a year on from third election victory:
     57, 50, 51, 49, 55, 58

     There were quite a number of polls over the final term of the Clark Government, incidentally, where the governing parties collectively scored above 50% in the polls, quite often over 52%, and (before mid 2007) occasionally above 54%.

     (3) First thing to say about Key’s 64% rating being trumpeted by the HoS is that the Herald-DigiPolls greatly exaggerate PM/Party Leader ratings. That’s because – in stark contrast to the Colmar Brunton, Reid Research and Fairfax Ipsos polls…..the Herald-Digi exclude the always hefty number of Don’t Knows/None-of-the-Aboves.

     Hence, Key is on 64% Preferred PM here but just 40% and 38% respectively in the latest Colmar Brunton and Reid Research polls.

     So, we need to compare like with like….. while at the same time pointing out that 64% of poll respondents (and thus, by implication, voters) do NOT prefer Key as PM. More like 64% of the roughly 60-70% who chose one of the leaders. In other words, about 40% of all voters/respondents (as the 2 TV polls are currently suggesting).

     Is Key, then, as popular as he’s ever been ?

     Herald-DigiPoll (Preferred PM)
     Since 14 election:…..65, 65, 64
     2014:….. 67, 66, 66, 68, 62
     2013:….. 63, 65, 56, 62,
     2012:….. 64, 64, 66,
     2011:….. 68, 70, 71
     2010:…..58

     So, yeah, according to the Herald-DigiPoll results, kind of. He’s clearly been lower – 58% 2010, 56% 2013, but he’s also been quite a bit higher 68-71%

     What about the TV polls ?

     Colmar Brunton and Reid Research
     Since 14 election….. 44, 41, 42, 44, 39, 40, 38 (range: 38-44, average: 41% )
     2014:….. range: 39-48, average: 45%
     2013:….. range: 41-45, average: 43%
     2012:….. range: 37-48, average: 43%
     2011:….. range: 48-57, average: 52%
     2010:….. range: 45-52, average: 48%
     2009:….. range: 50-54, average: 51%

     So, in a word, “No”. Our esteemed Leader is by no means “as popular a he’s always been” according to the TV polls. Key’s average Preferred PM rating since 2014 Election:
     is down 10 points on 2009, down 11 points on 2011 and down 4 points on last year.

     His average over the last 3 polls is 39%, down 12, 13 and 6 points respectively.

     On top of that, the detailed Reid Research ratings on a whole lot of diverse measurements surrounding leadership attributes reinforce this evidence of a slow but steady fall in popularity and esteem for the said Key.

     (4) Key vs Clark popularity at this stage in third term.

     Herald-DigiPoll
     Key: 65, 65, 64
     Clark: 52, 51, 54

     So, yeah, true, but not exactly an overwhelming margin. Particularly, when you remember that the Herald-DigiPoll’s methodology exaggerates differences in support.

     Colmar Brunton and Reid Research
     Key: 39, 40, 38
     Clark: 38, 38, (Reid Research)
     (Haven’t got the exact Colmar Brunton stats for Clark in mid-late 06, but from a CB chart I can see that she was consistently rating between about 36-40% in CB polls at this point)

     So, virtually no difference between Key and Clark a year on from their third election victories, according to the TV polls.
     • ianmac 1.5.1

       6 September 2015 at 5:40 pm

       Well done Mr Swordfish. A lot of careful Research. Thanks.
     • tinfoilhat 1.5.2

       9 September 2015 at 9:02 pm

       “So, virtually no difference between Key and Clark a year on from their third election victories, according to the TV polls.”

       I think the biggest difference is there is no one in the current opposition that has captured the voters interest as Key did during Helen’s last term – which remains problematic if we want a change of government.
       • swordfish 1.5.2.1

         10 September 2015 at 12:04 am

         Two things:

         (1) Yeah, Key was something of a phenomenon

         Once it became clear that he was going to mount a challenge to Brash (whose leadership, of course, was in a certain amount of turmoil following the extra-marital affair rumours), Key’s Preferred PM ratings rose from zero to 9%.

         For the first few months after taking over as leader of the Opposition, he was in the mid-late 20s, then largely in the 30s through 2007 and (putting aside the Herald-DigiPolls), mid 30s-early 40s in election year 2008.

         But, it’s possible to exaggerate (as journalists sometimes do) just how rare this is.

         Helen Clark was certainly unpopular (especially in her early years as Labour Leader, when she often scored below 5% and was almost as disliked as Ruth Richardson). McClay of course suffered from similarly dire ratings, while Kirk and Bolger were by no means particularly popular Opposition leaders when it came to preferred PM (or Most Effective Leader as it tended to be in the late 60s / early 70s Polls).

         On the other hand, Muldoon was more popular than Key in his early days as Opposition Leader. In fact, Muldoon was already topping the polls at the time of the 1969 Election (30% as most effective leader), which, of course, was well before he finally toppled Marshal in 1974.

         In the 1992-1993 period, during the most draconian phase of a deeply reviled Bolger/Richardson government, Winston Peters was regularly scoring 20-30% as Preferred PM. By 1994, Peters’ bubble had burst and Jim Anderton began to eclipse everyone, always receiving in the 20-25% range (well ahead of Bolger, Moore and – by that stage – Peters). Anderton was also by far the most liked leader (by a majority of supporters of every single Party, yes even including National)

         Not so sure about Lange – I’ll have to dig out the figures for 1983-1984. But, if memory serves me right, he was regularly in the 20s as Opposition Leader.

         So various Party Leaders have, in Opposition, rivalled Key’s support – at least in terms of his ratings during the first year of his leadership.

         (2) Notice that Kirk (who reached a highpoint of 17% as most effective leader in 1969, before falling to 7% in July 1972 and 9% just before that year’s election) and Clark (on horrendously low figures for a good deal of her stint as Oppo Leader) both went on to win Elections by a pretty comfortable margin.
2. Tautoko Mangō Mata 2

   6 September 2015 at 7:33 am

   This article gives a good explanation of the current state of TPP negotiations.

   A few excerpts
   “Carmageddon: Why the TPP probably won’t be an election issue
   By Peter Clark | Sep 4, 2015 4:27 pm
   “The Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) negotiations remain mired in basic disagreements. Closure in 2015 is a fading dream abandoned by the realists.
   Others, recognizing that their best bet is passage on Obama’s watch, continue to press for an early ministerial conference to avoid the legislative timetable slipping into 2016. But their views have little traction these days.

   Post-Maui finger-pointing over the stumbling blocks is reaching epidemic proportions. Japanese TPP Minister Akira Amari claimed on his blog that U.S. Trade Representative Michael Froman didn’t push hard enough for closure at Maui. This jab was aimed at New Zealand Trade Minister Tim Groser, who was inflexible and extortionate in his dairy demands.

   There were bilateral discussions on the fringes of the ASEAN ministerial meeting in Kuala Lumpur. There were no major breakthroughs.
   https://ipolitics.ca/2015/09/04/carmageddon-why-the-tpp-probably-wont-be-an-election-issue/
3. ScottGN 3

   6 September 2015 at 7:35 am

   Here’s hoping…
   http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canadians-want-a-new-pm-poll-suggests/article26230989/?click=sf_globefb
4. GregJ 4

   6 September 2015 at 7:45 am

   I thought I would share this – perhaps it might put the flag referenda in “context” as well as adding some much needed humour!

   I live overseas in the Middle East and yesterday I was discussing, briefly, the flag referenda with some of my Arab staff (just saying we were having a vote for one of 4 new flag designs and then having a 2nd vote with the winner against the current one). I showed them the 4 choices for the 1st referendum and one of them said (and I’m paraphrasing slightly):

   “They are not really very good designs are they? The ones with a white feather are sort of OK – is it from that NZ bird? But why have you got a Black Hole on the other one?”

   I had to try really hard not to fall down laughing! 🙂
   • miravox 4.1

     6 September 2015 at 7:56 am

     hahaha – can I copy that?
     • GregJ 4.1.1

       6 September 2015 at 8:28 am

       Yeah if you like.
       • Graeme 4.1.1.1

         6 September 2015 at 6:32 pm

         We run a tourist retail business in Queenstown and have a Silver Fern for a logo. We spend a lot of time explaining the fern, “what’s with the feather, we see that everywhere?” Combined with a black background most of the world is completely confused as to what we stand for.
         • GregJ 4.1.1.1.1

           6 September 2015 at 8:26 pm

           When flat whites started becoming served here baristas would put a silver fern design into the foam. Most are from the Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, India as well as some locals. None had any idea of what the design was and what the connection to NZ was.

           And if I ask people what a Kiwi is they think it is a fruit (& with no idea of how the name came about). Even Indians & Pakistanis – rabid cricket fans as they are don’t really recognize the term “kiwi” and don’t recognize the fern.

           It was a salutary lesson in the prominence and recognition of a small country a long way away in the South Pacific. 😉
5. marty mars 5

   6 September 2015 at 8:10 am

   re flag stuff

   Q – what will piss key off the most
   A – not getting his own way

   Q – what does key want
   A – a flag legacy

   Q – what will piss key off the most
   A – not having a flag legacy

   Q – what can I do
   A – vote for the existing flag

   The deeper rationale is – my flag is not included and can never be included until we have grown up as a nation. The alternative designs are substandard imo and the process for deciding them is shonkey and flawed – any flag debate should discuss values and history not just be corporate logo (TPPA) hunting. The current flag (for all its many and detailed faults) actually does mean something – it shows us who we are today and who we were yesterday and is a symbol of many things including the non-delivery from the Crown of its Treaty obligations. So, for all of the reasons above I am going to vote (at this stage) for the existing flag.
   • JanMeyer 5.1

     6 September 2015 at 1:07 pm

     You can fool yourself MM but you can’t fool me! Not interested in a Union Jack on our flag. I find it fascinating that otherwise seemingly progressive folk are so attached to such a conservative symbol and one that explicitly represents our colonial history.
     • marty mars 5.1.1

       6 September 2015 at 1:58 pm

       The reason you have stated is exactly my reason – until the country changes no need to try and hide the symbol of the unchanging, namely the flag that displays it all.
       • JanMeyer 5.1.1.1

         6 September 2015 at 2:34 pm

         Ok I get the logic. I just want the Union Jack removed now, not in a decade or three!
         • Pascals bookie 5.1.1.1.1

           6 September 2015 at 2:49 pm

           Fair enough, but what’s the point of removing the jack when the Crown is still a thing?

           Is the latter you want to get rid of?

           This idea that we are totally post colonial now seems blind, to me. We just run off to join a war as part of a club. No one could explain how it was actually going to help anything, we just had to join in to show our commitment to ‘the team’.

           I don’t see the jack in the corner of our flag as a sign of subservience or anything, it’s just an accurate reference to the fact that NZ was colonised by the UK, and is still heavily influenced by that. Doesn’t mean we are a colony now, and we haven’t exactly put all that stuff to bed, so to me, getting rid of it now in order to show we have gotten over all that stuff would be putting the cart before the horse.

           I can’t help but notice, too, that the Lockwood designs, to my eye at least, seem very pakeha, and I don;t think it’s a coincidence that they are popular. Reminds me of all the talk about “why can’t Waitangi day be more like Australia day?’ and all that jazz.
           • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.1.1.1

             6 September 2015 at 5:23 pm

             I can’t help but notice, too, that the Lockwood designs, to my eye at least, seem very pakeha, and I don;t think it’s a coincidence that they are popular.

             And are thus going against the trend of greater Māori culture in our society. I doubt if that itself is a mistake as I’m sure that a number of older rich white guys are getting concerned about that shift in culture.
   • seeker 5.2

     6 September 2015 at 2:44 pm

     Agree marty@8.10am

     Until New Zealand can show the maturity and wisdom to vote out such a ghastly, incompetent, sly, uncaring government led by a selfish, divisive, untruthful, glee club wannabee, schoolboy/ query man who uses New Zealand as his very own playground and Parliament as his own playpen (think
     announcing his ‘besties’ All Blacks wc team from there as one
     example) I think you are totally on the button marty m.
     jan.m.::
     I like Hami Shearlie’s idea on comment red peak yesterday @11.37pm comment 53. (sorry can’t get this tablet to link)
6. Murray Simmonds 6

   6 September 2015 at 8:52 am

   New topic;

   “This month there will be a total lunar eclipse, visible from most of North America, South America, Europe, West Asia and parts of Africa (but not visible from NZ). In the Americas, the eclipse will begin on the evening of September 27.
   This eclipse is the fourth and last in a tetrad, a series of four consecutive total lunar eclipses in 2014 – 2015.
   The term Blood Moon has recently become popular when referring to the total lunar eclipses in the 2014 – 2015 lunar tetrad. While the term has no technical or astronomical basis, many people believe that it comes from the Bible, and that the occurrence of the lunar tetrad is a fulfillment of a biblical prophecy.”

   http://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/lunar/2015-september-28

   If you google “Blood moon, tetrad, armageddon” or words to that effect on Youtube, you will find an astonishing number of links to predictions about the end of the world on or about Sept 27 2015.

   I started watching one of American-Jewish origin, but was immediately put off by the overlaid “Request for a donation if you liked the video”. Seemed to me that the author shot himself in the foot right there. I couldn’t see how donating money to his cause would in any way help him if he actually believed in what he was predicting in his video (i.e. the end of the world later this month).

   There have been prophecies that “the end is nigh” pretty much since the beginning of time, as I understand it. But so far, of course, they have all turned out to be cases of “when prophecy fails”. I don’t imagine that this batch, due for the acid test later this month, will be any different.

   Nevertheless, if you add up all the viewings of these “prophecy videos” on You-tube, its a depressingly high number. All those people with nothing more important to think about, in a world where there is an urgent need for a complete re-think of what the governments of the world SHOULD be doing! A world that requires urgent action on issues like global climate change, issues like the need for an economic system that benefits all rather than just the 1%, and issues like what to do about the millions of people walking out of Africa and the Middle East in search of better governments; that is, governments that are supposedly in touch with the needs of the people.

   There seems to be some irony in that.
   • vto 6.1

     6 September 2015 at 9:16 am

     I suspect that there are many theories about the end-times because in the past there have in fact been a huge number of actual end-times…

     do you think this wont happen again?
7. Plan B 7

   6 September 2015 at 9:32 am

   Has this been covered here yet?
   If not it deserves to be well read.

   From interest.co.nz site

   . Does migration really help the economy? – Michael Reddell over at Croaking Cassandra has been doing some excellent work digging into the numbers and arguments behind New Zealand’s surprisingly lax and high migration levels.

   He has found that most of the migrants coming aren’t nearly as skilled as we might think and the economic value they add is not as high as we all assume.

   http://croakingcassandra.com/2015/09/04/immigration-a-critical-economic-enabler-or-a-deeply-troubled-programme/
   • Draco T Bastard 7.1

     6 September 2015 at 11:54 am

     That doesn’t actually surprise me as the fact of the matter is that it costs us to settle new people here. They need services and support that those native to NZ don’t need and if we don’t provide those services and support then it will cost us even more.

     It’s like they look at the 19th century and the differences made by the new colonists with their far greater knowledge and expect it to continue despite that fact that new colonists today don’t have that same discrepancy in knowledge and many often have less knowledge than the people already here – the people being displaced.
     • marty mars 7.1.1

       6 September 2015 at 10:49 pm

       wtf

       costs us – right wing meme
       native to nz??? – born here I think you mean
       cost us even more – right wing meme
       new colonists with their far greater knowledge – didn’t know how to survive here though those big brains
       the same discrepancy of knowledge – utter rubbish
       people being displaced – no one is being displaced, just another right wing meme

       so wrong, so selfish, so bennettpulltheladderup, wtf is wrong with you?
       • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.1

         6 September 2015 at 11:04 pm

         costs us – right wing meme

         Simple physics actually.

         new colonists with their far greater knowledge – didn’t know how to survive here though those big brains

         1. They would have survived fine
         2. They had the knowledge of industrial systems

         the same discrepancy of knowledge – utter rubbish

         You seem to have missed a couple of important words there – don’t have.

         people being displaced – no one is being displaced

         Of course people will be displaced. You can’t move people into a community without causing movement in the community.

         wtf is wrong with you?

         Nothing. It’s the people who refuse to accept the physical limits of the world that are wrong and causing extreme strife around the world through their stupidity.
         • McFlock 7.1.1.1.1

           7 September 2015 at 12:02 am

           draco, you’re the only one who brought up any sort of equivalence between bringing steel and industrialisation to 19C NZ, and refugees coming to NZ today (straw man, much?). But that doesn’t mean the refugees today have nothing to offer, or that we’ll be economically worse off for saving their lives.

           As for your “displacement” argument, nobody is forced to relocate, and nobody is kicked out of NZ, so the immigrants will add to the knowledge here, not subtract.

           BTW, 19C drowning rates alone tend to suggest that no, settlers didn’t “survive fine”. Google “the New Zealand Death”.
           • Draco T Bastard 7.1.1.1.1.1

             7 September 2015 at 1:05 am

             you’re the only one who brought up any sort of equivalence between bringing steel and industrialisation to 19C NZ, and refugees coming to NZ today (straw man, much?).

             Actually, that was Bill bringing up the bullshit that refugees would be really good for us when the evidence shows that immigrants aren’t. I suggested above that people are still looking to the 19th century and the effects of bringing industrialisation to NZ but the equivalence no longer works because bringing people in no longer brings in skills and knowledge not here.

             As for your “displacement” argument, nobody is forced to relocate, and nobody is kicked out of NZ, so the immigrants will add to the knowledge here, not subtract.

             Fuck, are you really that stupid? The refugees or even immigrants will not bring any knowledge to NZ as we already have that knowledge and skill here. There are many forms of ‘displacement’. There’s going to be displacement from jobs, changes in social circles and other social effects. And there will be a decrease in availability of resources as noted in the article linked to.

             Really, you should try reading these things some time. You never know, you might actually learn something and drop your preconceived, and wrong, notions.
             • McFlock …

               7 September 2015 at 1:31 am

               I suggested above that people are still looking to the 19th century and the effects of bringing industrialisation to NZ

               Yes, you did suggest that, and it’s a stupid suggestion.

               The link “showed” that immigrants, including short term working holiday “immigrants”, aren’t as good for the economy “as we all assume”. There’s a fucking massive gulf between that and immigration being a net cost to the economy.

               Do you seriously belive that we know everything that a refugee can offer? That someone coming from the other side of the planet will look at the same production or technical or farming problem and not come up with a different solution to what we already have, one that might actually be better?

               Displacement from jobs? Bullshit, because the tories have an objective of 6-8% unemployment, a target they reliably hit every fucking time thei’ve been in government the last 30 years. When the unemployment level is the result of government policy targeting a specific rate rather than a fixed number of available jobs, increased population doesn’t affect the population rate and therefore only an idiot woud yell ‘they took rrr jerbs!’
               • Draco T Bastard …

                 7 September 2015 at 9:32 am

                 The link “showed” that immigrants, including short term working holiday “immigrants”, aren’t as good for the economy “as we all assume”.

                 Actually, it showed that immigration always pushes prices up and causes a decrease in availability of resources in the short to medium term. As we don’t stop immigration that means we have a constant push on resources and prices. Now, the idiots will be saying great this is because it pushes growth but we really do need to stop growing and become sustainable.

                 That someone coming from the other side of the planet will look at the same production or technical or farming problem and not come up with a different solution to what we already have, one that might actually be better?

                 That’s a possibility but a very slim one and thus we’d probably be better off just importing the idea.

                 When the unemployment level is the result of government policy targeting a specific rate rather than a fixed number of available jobs, increased population doesn’t affect the population rate and therefore only an idiot woud yell ‘they took rrr jerbs!’

                 The RWNJs do, as a matter of fact, do that but that doesn’t preclude technological joblessness.

                 My main point here was that we shouldn’t be using economic reasons to justify immigration or taking in refugees as it’s really not economic.
                 • McFlock …

                   7 September 2015 at 11:59 am

                   So to recap: a few thousand refugees will cost a huge amount of money to bring over here and they won’t have any new skills so will live off welfare thus increasing inflation while at the same time they fiendishly use their lack of new skills and poor integration to take our jobs no wait robots took rrr jerbs. Because 19C NZ settlers survived fine. Sounds legit. /sarc

                   Actually, it showed that immigration always pushes prices up and causes a decrease in availability of resources in the short to medium term.

                   “all else equal”. And we know how accurate economic predictions are when they reduce it to a single line function based on “all else equal”.

                   And even if this were the case, the answer is simple: we take in 10,000 refugees and make it harder for non-skilled holiday-making migrants to get work visas, by about 10,000 less needy migrants per year.

                   That’s a possibility but a very slim one and thus we’d probably be better off just importing the idea.

                   Well, sadly even if we knew there was a better way of approaching the problem, the person who would have had that idea suffocated in the back of a truck.

                   Immigration means diversity. Diversity means adaptability. Adaptability means success in the longer term. No, we shouldn’t have to make it an economic argument, but we do have to because money is the only thing some tories value.

                   Do you know what I’m looking forward to? Syrian takeaways. Can’t wait. No idea exactly what it will be, but I’ve never met a cuisine that didn’t have something delightful.
                   • weka …

                     7 September 2015 at 12:16 pm

                     I really wish people would stop conflating refugees and immigration in this way.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     7 September 2015 at 12:30 pm

                     So to recap: a few thousand refugees will cost a huge amount of money to bring over here and they won’t have any new skills so will live off welfare thus increasing inflation while at the same time they fiendishly use their lack of new skills and poor integration to take our jobs no wait robots took rrr jerbs. Because 19C NZ settlers survived fine. Sounds legit. /sarc

                     That would be you proving your stupidity.

                     I said that they won’t bring new skills as they’ll have the same skills we already have.

                     All the rest is a similar misunderstanding of what I said. I can only assume this is a purposeful misunderstanding because you don’t want to face reality.

                     And even if this were the case, the answer is simple: we take in 10,000 refugees and make it harder for non-skilled holiday-making migrants to get work visas, by about 10,000 less needy migrants per year.

                     I’d be supportive of that idea but then I think we need a moratorium on immigration for about 5 years.

                     Immigration means diversity. Diversity means adaptability. Adaptability means success in the longer term.

                     That would be nice if that’s what it meant but it’s unlikely to do so due to them doing things the same way we already do. As I said, we won’t get any more knowledge.

                     Do you know what I’m looking forward to? Syrian takeaways.

                     Chances are it’s already here. That link doesn’t show any specific Syrian food places but does have Lebanese.
                   • McFlock …

                     7 September 2015 at 12:31 pm

                     It’s part of the process of excusing a dick move: by conflating refugees with standard immigrants, it lessens the emotional tug of the refugees need. I’ve also seen in some comments on this issue the argument that the refugees who make it to Europe aren’t poor, because they’ve paid smugglers for their passage (never mind whether they spent all their money on the passage, or indebted themselves to snakeheads to end up living as slaves). Not ‘real’ refugees, more economic migrants, sort of thing.

                     That’s where the pictures of the dead come in. Nobody risks that for themselves or their children just for a change of scenery.
                   • McFlock …

                     7 September 2015 at 1:16 pm

                     I said that they won’t bring new skills as they’ll have the same skills we already have.

                     No, they won’t have the same skills we already have. We do not know everything there is to know (even if you think that you do). They will bring new skills and new perspectives.

                     We don’t need a moratorium on migration, especially refugees. Swings and roundabouts – it wasn’t so long ago that net migration was in the negatives.

                     BTW, I suspect Lebanese food is as close to Syrian as Turkish food is. As in identical, but only if one has a dull palate and a head full of ignorance.
   • McFlock 7.2

     6 September 2015 at 10:38 pm

     Well, rather than saying what we might think and what we all assume, the simple question is: are migrants a net cost or net benefit to the economy?

     And if the answer is “net cost”, then the next question is: how much money are we prepared to save in order to feel ok about seeing photos of bodies on beaches?
8. Clemgeopin 8

   6 September 2015 at 9:57 am

   Did you hear the nasty and crap comments that Matthew Hooton made about Labour and the Greens on the Q ans A programme this morning? He came across as a complete arsehole stating that Labour and the Greens are simply leveraging this refugee crisis and the dead child’s photo to increase their own poll ratings. Hooton is a dirty politics playing despicable bugger. He is a disgrace as an armchair talking head.
   • dv 8.1

     6 September 2015 at 10:01 am

     Labour and the Greens are simply leveraging this refugee crisis and the dead child’s photo to increase their own poll ratings

     So what will Hooten say when the Nats accept more refugees.

     That is interesting at another level too. It means that Hooten accepts that NZers want more refugees to be accepted.
   • Anne 8.2

     6 September 2015 at 10:15 am

     No-one bailed Hooton up for it which is of even more concern because both parties came out expressing the urgent need to take more refugees BEFORE the photo appeared in the media.

     The only party playing politics is National who are going to do an about face tomorrow because they have found themselves on the wrong side of the ledger. Humanitarian reasons don’t come into it.
   • DH 8.3

     6 September 2015 at 12:09 pm

     I think Hooten is partially right. There’s been far too much shallow hand-wringing and emotional blackmail over this for it all to be genuine.

     Why has the plight of refugees only become a cause celebre when the wave hit Europe? The stories have been coming out of camps in Jordan & Lebanon for years and no-one gave a damn. Countless mothers have been forced to sell their underage daughters to rich predators flocking in from the gulf states, haven’t seen too many politicians clamouring to help those refugees. Countless tens of thousands of refugees have died on land while fleeing recent conflict in the ME. But they’re not on Europe’s doorstep, nobody cares.

     I think this is Europe’s problem, let them sort it. We should be helping people in our own way and on our own terms, not being forced to adopt some fake moral conscience for something we had nothing to do with. We’re no longer a colonial outpost, we don’t need to fight in Europe’s wars or bow to their arrogance.

     By all means increase the refugee quota but not because of this. It would be for all the wrong reasons.
     • Sabine 8.3.1

       6 September 2015 at 12:37 pm

       because they are now not internally displaced wretched existences anymore, they are not wretched existences that upset some fatty holidaymakers in their vacations spots.

       its actually quite simple, how dare these wretched existences disturb us in our wretched existence. Don’t they know we have problems too?

       We should have increased the refugee quote the time we took in the refugees on the Tampa, it was a missed opportunity, but hey better late then never.

       Also, we should get used to this, its just gonna get worse.
     • Draco T Bastard 8.3.2

       6 September 2015 at 12:42 pm

       By all means increase the refugee quota but not because of this. It would be for all the wrong reasons.

       QFT
     • locus 8.3.3

       6 September 2015 at 10:59 pm

       no no no

       finally the media throws an evocative image of the awful plight of refugees into the discussion and that makes it somehow okay to criticise the response because the media is feeding some emotion into it

       how can so many distant theorisers sit in their comfortable armchairs in nice safe countries and say that we’re getting all emotional and that’s not the right thing to direct our response

       – that our distance makes it the EU’s problem not ours

       – and that we are justified in doing nothing based on the attitude ‘look after our own first’

       good grief

       finally some sympathetic coverage from the media that’s making people around the world wake up to the wretched realities that the refugees from wars have been experiencing

       this is something i thought that compassionate people at all ends of the political spectrum might be able to come together on
   • marty mars 8.4

     6 September 2015 at 2:02 pm

     yep hooton is the classic political animal – changing his spots to appear more reasonable but within, a seething mass of hidden foulness, occasionally exhibited such as in this case about the refugee crisis.
     • rhinocrates 8.4.1

       6 September 2015 at 2:19 pm

       Hoots and Slater are the same in that they demonstrate the principle that mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself. Neither are capable or compassion and both are fearful of facing the consequences of conscience, so they must imagine that others must be the same as themselves.

       Slater’s more honest than Hoots (but not right) in saying openly that he feels that everyone is a foul-minded moral cripple like himself and both believe that everyone has motives no better than their own and they are therefore justified in their foulness.

       They will even claim to be better than anyone else because they think they are not ‘hypocrites’ like people who profess moral values but are ‘realists’ who profess none.

       Cynicism however is not intelligence and it is certainly not ‘realism’ when you bear in mind that politics is what we make it or allow it to be.

       They are not only corrupt and revolting, they are corrupting – poison in the well of discourse.
       • Reddelusion 8.4.1.1

         6 September 2015 at 3:08 pm

         What a load of sanctimonious simple minded crap. Same logic as lions are bad, lambs are good, on the basis lambs are cute peaceful herbivores, lions are dominant agrresive carnivores. simply labelling some one good or bad because they don’t fit your view of the world is dim witted at best This air of superiority by the hard left nut bars manifested in constant vilification of JK, dumb voters who just can’t see it, is why people just turn away from anything with the rancid smell of the left
         • marty mars 8.4.1.1.1

           6 September 2015 at 3:11 pm

           mate there are good lions and bad ones – fuck haven’t you watched the lion king – get an education fool
           • Reddelusion 8.4.1.1.1.1

             6 September 2015 at 3:20 pm

             From man who gets his knowledge from cartoons

             Go figure?
             • marty mars …

               6 September 2015 at 4:05 pm

               lol – I love the smell of a nonsenseofhumour in the afternoon…
         • rhinocrates 8.4.1.1.2

           6 September 2015 at 4:19 pm

           QED (Thus it is demonstrated). The fury of the mediocre soul that brands morality as hypocrisy to justify its mediocrity.
           • Red delusion 8.4.1.1.2.1

             6 September 2015 at 10:05 pm

             I have one response to your ramblings. The epistemological meta-narrative that you seem to espouse is not compatible with a teleological account of the real world 😀 ( for Marty as he needs some humour)
             • locus …

               6 September 2015 at 10:20 pm

               i thought rhinocrates put it rather well

               a clear explanation of his observations about people who are steeped in dirty politics

               mind you… i don’t agree that they are mediocre at what they do….. they are quite effective at derailing, framing and manipulating

               in my view not ‘bad lions’ more like hyenas
9. Snakeoil 9

   6 September 2015 at 10:14 am

   Erdogan professes sympathy, but his government is pushing refugees to take the sea route rather than crossing the Bosphorus, creating a humanitarian crisis as further reason to intervene in Syria.
10. Lanthanide 10

    6 September 2015 at 10:42 am

    If Key wanted to defuse some of the negativity around his flag change process, he should change the law to add Red Peak as a 5th option for this referendum. He can say the public have spoken, he’s listened, and so he’s doing the pragmatic thing and adding it to the list.

    It’ll come in 3rd behind the Lockwood designs, and everything will carry on as it always was going to.
    • Sabine 10.1

      6 September 2015 at 12:40 pm

      He should then also include the current flag. and be done with it. The resene swatches should include some green, to represent the Dairy farmers.
    • Gabby 10.2

      6 September 2015 at 2:09 pm

      Who’s this lockjaw fellow?
11. adam 11

    6 September 2015 at 12:05 pm

    Now I’m a bit loath to link to a shop. But I want you to scroll down this link a read what is said in the last blue frame on the page.

    Very cool from Mr Sanders, very cool indeed.

    https://store.berniesanders.com/
12. Draco T Bastard 12

    6 September 2015 at 2:39 pm

    David Kriesel: Lies, damned lies and scans (Hour long video)

    Out-take:
    Xerox had bug across wide range of scanners for several years before anyone found it
    That bug switched characters and thus no document scanned by those scanners can be considered accurate
    German government has now banned the use of that algorithm (Big2) across all manufacturers for scanning legal documents
13. Tautoko Mangō Mata 13

    6 September 2015 at 2:57 pm

    Charter Schools- read this Davit Seymour, John Key!

    In ‘Win for Public Schools,’ Washington Supreme Court Rules Charter Schools Unconstitutional
    “The Supreme Court has affirmed what we’ve said all along—charter schools steal money from our existing classrooms, and voters have no say in how these charter schools spend taxpayer funding.”—Kim Mead, Washington Education Association ”

    “The new ruling (pdf) states that charters, “devoid of local control from their inception to their daily operation,” cannot be classified as “common schools,” nor have “access to restricted common school funding.”

    Ravitch writes that the 6-3 decision “is a big win for parents and public schools,” and that it “gives hope to parents all across America, who see charter schools draining funding from their public schools, favoring the privileges of the few over the rights of the many.”
14. joe90 14

    6 September 2015 at 3:40 pm

    RIP ‘Rico’, TBone man extraordinaire.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-34162351

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbqiCxEIeEo
15. North 15

    6 September 2015 at 7:16 pm

    Not hard to work out the stuff of silly old duffer Armstrong’s bucket list is it ?http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11508719
16. Chooky 16

    6 September 2015 at 7:44 pm

    Meanwhile the real issues away from the msm preoccupation with the jonkey PR flag change diversion and the stupid All Blacks …

    This report dissects the looming financial crisis caused by the Western banksters….and billions of dollars fleeing out of China because of its consequent economic crisis …and propping up housing bubbles around the world..

    ( ..it has come to a place near you …the New Zealand and especially the Auckland housing crisis …and ..refutes those who accepted jonkey Nact framing and said this was a racism issue and castigated the NZLP for “crude racial profiling”..yes Greens )

    …Gerald Celente does not pull his punches

    Episode 806

    https://www.rt.com/shows/keiser-report/314493-hurricanes-global-financial-markets/

    “In this special episode of the Keiser Report from New York, Max Keiser and Stacy Herbert discuss the never seen before triple category four hurricanes heading for global financial markets caused by injection of too much hot air from central bankers. In the second half, Max interviews Gerald Celente about Rule 48, volatility and invasions.”
17. kushal kumar 17

    27 September 2015 at 7:57 pm

    The coming total lunar eclipse on Sunday ( 27 – 28 September) has certain distinguishing features such as : (1). It is combining with supermoon ( pegree Moon ), (2) It is the fourth total lunar eclipse in series, (3). Energies being generated by planets such as Saturn, Mars, Jupiter and Rahu as carriers of these lunar eclipses in contemporary times are not as positive as human beings would have wished . The likely impact of the said phenomenon on earth and its inhabitants was explained by this Vedic astrology writer in article – “Total lunar eclipse of 28 September 2015 and the world”- published in June 2015 in Summer 2015 issue of The Astrologer’s Notebook , a quarterly publication in print from North Port, Florida. Readers may like to know that impacts of such celetial phenomena are not confined to the day these occur. The eclipse comes to 27 September in some parts of west. Some months before and after also, the impact remains. Already in contemporary times recently , these happenings have hit the headlines of newspapers : migrant refugee crisis in Europe, global economy slowdown, volcano eruptions, huge tragedy in holy shrine of Mecca , devastating 8.3 magnitude earthquake in Chile, massive fire in California and elsewhere, threats of war by different countries, burning Middle East, unprecedented happenings in Japan, China and Thailand , danger to food crops by drought, floods, inhospitable weather and storms . It looks as if there is widespread environment of uncertainty. Are these uncommon or unusual happenings not a sign of said phenomena on 27 September 2015 ? But if by these phenomenon, world coming to an end or total extinction of mankind is meant, this writer does not subscribe to that opinion or prediction. Mankind is undoubtedly passing through tougher , harder and critical times which may likely cause before mid – 2016 wider damage or harm but end time of mankind as feared by some is neither disclosed nor supported by planetary impacts mentioned here.

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