Open mike 07/08/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:25 am, August 7th, 2014 - 306 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

mickey savage wonders wtf ht william joyceOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

306 comments on “Open mike 07/08/2014”

  1. Sanctuary 1

    I think Mr. Savage was more a firm IMHO than a WTF. He knew WTF was going on. And he had a clear IMHO as what to do about it.

  2. michael joseph savage looks at the labour party of 2014….

  3. karol 3

    Interesting comment from Nat cheerleader, Tracy Watkins:

    Even Transport Minister Gerry Brownlee and Cabinet fixer Steven Joyce seemed to suffer early from “campaign brain” – Joyce has been the talk of the Beehive after losing his rag on TV3’s The Nation in a debate with Labour’s Grant Robertson,

  4. amirite 4

    If Labour wants us to ‘vote positive’, their candidates shouldn’t associate with scum like Slater and Farrar.

    • davis did not ask them for the donations..

      ..so yr choice of the world ‘associate’..is loose to say the least..

      • The Al1en 4.1.1

        “factcheck:..” “factfu*k more like.”

        Are you for real pu? The bollocks you threw my way for saying exactly the same thing, makes you out to be a untrustworthy flake.

        me “davis did not ask them for the donations..”

        pu “two of the donations were from whaleoil and farrar….and in the pitch for the site..a ‘plus’ was cited that ‘national party members wd contribute’….to this cause of taking out harawira..”

        me “Though it doesn’t say he solicited them from the bloggers directly, or KD knew who was donating. Obviously they outed themselves, but that proves no culpability on KD’s part.”

        pu “the allen shd not mistake a factcheck of his bullshit..for an opening of dialogue..…i wd rather bash my cock against a nail-studded stump…”
        “no..davis has said he has the money from farrar/slater…”

        • phillip ure 4.1.1.1

          that one has real difficulties in grasping basic facts..

          ..and is pretty much a nuance-free zone..

          ..seemingly unable to see the glaring contradictions in his own words..

          ..meh..!

          ..and i thought he held the allure of his imminent departure under our noses..?

          ..or did i just dream that..?

          • The Al1en 4.1.1.1.1

            If you want to retract the points you made yesterday about KD, and support the one’s I made (which you now accept as fact), do so, but show some respect and act like a bloke with a couple of balls.
            There are no contradictions in my words, unlike yours. Again, you must be having a laugh considering your about face. How do you hold your head up with such self inflicted embarrassing contradictions less than 24 hours apart?

            Slinging even more insults when you’ve just been exposed as a bullshirt merchant isn’t doing it for me.
            You can claim thick as a doorknob, but I’ve not done the 180 back track.
            Disingenuous and spiteful pu. “I’m a political commentator, that’s what I do” lol

            Outline the basic facts and show the “glaring contradictions in his own words”, though I’ve just done that in the post above.

            • phillip ure 4.1.1.1.1.1

              i wd change not a word i said yesterday..or today..

              ..thick as a sack full of door-knobs..

              ..q.e.d..

              ..my dick is hurting..over and out..

              • The Al1en

                “i wd change not a word i said yesterday..or today..”

                So you see no quandary over slagging me off for holding a position, then espousing the same position a day later?
                That makes you as credible as you are informed self proclaimed political observer.
                That really is a joke look to the illuminati of the political world you seek to ingratiate and align yourself with.

                “my dick is hurting..”

                Did you bang your head?

                • greywarbler

                  phillip u and The Allen
                  Why don’t you conduct a measured retreat and rethink and set an example for Israel and Palestine to follow? You would be achieving something intelligent in human relationships for yourselves and a big step for mankind as well. Go on – give it a go.

              • Rosie

                “..my dick is hurting..”

                A curious statement to read over coffee and toast………….

                • The Al1en

                  That’ll be concussion setting in.

                • @ rosie..yesterday i said i wd rather bang my dick against a nail-studded stump..

                  .. than engage in dialogue with the simple one..

                  • Rosie

                    Thank you for the background on that phil, puts it all in context now.

                    I did see that yourself and Alien had a “conversation” yesterday but I didn’t read it, due my theme of the week being ‘feel the love’

                    Seems I missed out on some entertainment though…………

                    • u missed nothing..

                      ..the ‘nail-studded stump’ was the best comment of/from the encounter..

                      ..(hence my reverential-reference..original material that good bears repeating..)

                    • The Al1en

                      Phil is being a hypocrite, today using the position I outlined yesterday, which he attacked me for.
                      Shonky political commentating, which apparently, is what he does.

                      “Seems I missed out on some entertainment though……”

                      Not really, but stay tuned. 😉

                    • Rosie

                      OK, Gentlemen. The reply buttons have run out and today’s b and d session hasn’t even started………

                      Have fun though. You both come up with some real pearlers sometimes. Makes me smile.

                      And then there’s the politics!

                    • greywarbler

                      @ Rosie 9.31
                      Feel the Love – good idea here’s the vid – enjoy

                    • Rosie

                      AWWW! Nice one Warbs, nice one!

                • Ennui

                  The imagery would put me off coffee and toast forever, woe!

      • tricledrown 4.1.2

        philip youre party needs coalition partners focus on youre party of the left this is MMP how many times have i read you denigrating right whingers for not understanding MMP.
        Sabatagure!
        you must be worried about loosing the coattails!
        The sugardaddy comments get under youre skin!
        Lailla should retort That John Key is a Sexist Dandy who has borrowed Bainimaramas Media Methods.
        Focus on attacking National not frigging your own it will back fire

    • bad12 4.2

      To be fair, Davis wasn’t directly associating with Blubber boy from ‘wail oil’ and the evil baby lookalike Farrar,

      Setting up an ‘attack’ web-page tho i would suggest is unbecoming of someone striving to become an MP,

      What i found at the Wellington leg of the InternetMana roadshow was a singular lack of any criticism of either Labour or the Greens,

      InternetMana know who the real enemy is, its a pity that that there are others who seem not to…

      • Rosie 4.2.1

        “What i found at the Wellington leg of the InternetMana roadshow was a singular lack of any criticism of either Labour or the Greens,”

        Nice one bad, as it should be. Having some standards and with holding criticism of those who would be your allies (cough) is a respectful thing to do.

      • marty mars 4.2.2

        In Nelson last night Laila was pretty direct about what she thinks will happen just after election night but she said it with grace and poise and enough power to light up the CBD.

        • bad12 4.2.2.1

          Were you there Marty, give us a ‘feel’ for the meeting down there, numbers and such, what you thought of ‘who’ the turnout is made up of…

    • ScottGN 4.3

      To be fair Kelvin Davis never solicited any donations from Farrar and Slater etc. He was probably just as surprised as everyone else at their stunt.

    • blue leopard 4.4

      +1 Amirite

      …and an addition for those aiming at fairness:

      To be fair to aim for National supporters purses – “it’s not aimed at traditional supporters, honestly I think national supporters may contribute” – and not consider that such an approach might attract the spinners from the Nats -like flies to a bad smell – one would have to be a completely short sighted, unthinking idiot.

      http://www.3news.co.nz/Portals/0/images/email-leak2.pdf

  5. Paul 5

    Espiner’s interview of Cunliffe a total disgrace from a public impartial broadcaster.
    He may as well just say Party Vote National.

    We pay taxes for his outrageous bias.

    • ScottGN 5.1

      Cunliffe dealt with him pretty well though. He finished strongly with his talking points.

      • Paul 5.1.1

        Agreed.
        And a public broadcaster should be treating both sides evenly.
        Don’t expect Key to receive such venom.

    • Clemgeopin 5.2

      Actually, I found that to be a good and robust interview with excellent tough but valid relevant questions being asked. Cunliffe was very clear and answered very well. True, Espiner at times was interrupting even before Cunliffe could finish his answer or sentence . That was irritating and rude pointing to the ‘ego’ and self imposed importance of the interviewer rather than the importance/seriousness of the question.

      But all in all, I thought it was a good interview and Cunliffe came out very well.
      It is always easy for an interviewer to ask rapid set of all kinds of questions thrown in left, right and centre, but pretty hard for a leader to respond well on the spot for all of them, especially when there is also constant badgering and off putting interruptions in between! I think Cunliffe does quite well and he did well here too.

      Here is the audio:

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/251547/labour-would-intervene-in-lochinver-station-sale

  6. Paul 6

    Hidden in this article below the editor’s headline.
    One Direction and all directions on PM’s campaign trail

    “But voters wanted to talk about other issues. They wanted to know when house prices would come down, how National planned to address child poverty, and when Resource Management Act reforms would get back on track.”

    Wonder how Key dodged all those curly questions…..

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11305069

    • i think it’s more scary that his musical-tastes have ‘moved from easy-listening to one direction’..

      ..how can we possibly trust an easy-listening/one direction fanboy..?..f.f.s..!

      ..how can we even bear to have such a person in the same room as us..?

      ..and that if not a politician..he would like to chop up dead animals all day..(!)

      ..he would choose to be a butcher..

      ..(i mean..this is all coming perilously close to ‘too much information’..)

    • bad12 6.2

      You have to wonder if the NZHerald runs a secret school for producing journalists hell bent on dumbing down the political discourse in this country,

      The writer of this piece of ”soothie” journalism Isaac Davidson chooses to ‘shield’ Slippery the Prime Minister by what is not included in this piece which simply screams ”Sluuu–uuurp”,

      Here’s some of the pointed questions asked of our Prime Minister by:

      The Porirua Chamber of Commerce,
      Discovery School Porirua,
      Kapiti College,

      *Would the PM intervene in Israel,
      *When will the price of housing come down,
      *What is He doing about the gap between rich and poor,
      *How did He plan to address child poverty,
      *Will He raise the minimum wage,

      Not an indication in sight of an answer from Slippery the Prime Minister according to the Heralds Isaac Davidson obviously acting to protect the PM’s image,

      i am tho heartened by the list of questions put to the PM and by whom those questions were asked, being a kid from Porirua it’s what i would expect,(although the local chamber of commerce expressing such concerns is a bit of an eye-opener),

      Lift your game Granny-Herald, that is a pathetic piece of journalism, the questions were posed and any journalist worth paying should have included in the published piece the frigging answers…

      • Clemgeopin 6.2.1

        For this PRIME MINISTER of the country to descend to the Wh Oil gutter standard by saying that Kim Dot Com is Laila Harre’s ‘Sugar daddy’ and we should ask her ‘what she is exchanging with him’ is extremely disgusting, rude, defamatory, sexist and really very crass. I think Key thought he would score some votes by this bottom feeding comment. But I think it will back fire. That cheap statement of Key alone should cost Key and National at least 3% of votes, in my opinion.

        • marty mars 6.2.1.1

          I agree – it shows how low and scum-like key is and also how desperate and worried they are about IMP. Women have fought for years and years to be treated with respect and key spits on all women and men who have worked for true equality.

          Expect more of these lines from key he is reaching his tipping point.

          • Clemgeopin 6.2.1.1.1

            I have a feeling that he knows that his time is finished and National will lose, is actually secretly glad and can’t wait to leave New Zealand asap!

          • The Pink Postman 6.2.1.1.2

            What an insulting creep this Key is. I find it hard to believe that a PM of Aotearoa would sink so low.
            However at least Lalia Harre is not licking the arse of War mongering Uncle Sam.
            So insulting is this remark that I would suggest that all women who vote for this creep are traitors to womens causes. What ever have we done to deserve such an arrogant dick as this present PM.

        • meconism 6.2.1.2

          Does that mean that he is Bronagh’s ‘sugar daddy’ one wonders?

  7. Tiger Mountain 7

    The woman hating filth seeping out of TradeMe, Kiwiblog and Whaleboil shows how spot on Laila Harré is in her opinion of the Prime Minister. If this misnamed leader keeps putting women down (eg Tania Billingsley) for speaking up it sends three messages;
    to ‘real’ radiolive men: go for it, talented women are bitches
    to women: don’t vote for me
    to men that make an effort: don’t vote for me

    Key has a very nasty side that is going to appear more often in the campaign. He is happy to slag off Laila on good ’ol boy radio but won’t debate her face to face at a candidates meeting at Kumeu Baptist Church.

    • You_Fool 7.1

      Hearing about this on the radio this morning made me make a double take; I couldn’t believe that the leader of our country would be so offensive to women. Then I remembered who was the current leader and realised that it was A) Par for the course, and B) that he would probably not really think of it as an insult because he has no empathy or understanding of real people.

  8. Paul 8

    George Monbiot at his best.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/05/neoliberalism-mental-health-rich-poverty-economy

    ‘Sick of this market-driven world? You should be’

    Some highlights…

    “To be at peace with a troubled world: this is not a reasonable aim. It can be achieved only through a disavowal of what surrounds you. To be at peace with yourself within a troubled world: that, by contrast, is an honourable aspiration. This column is for those who feel at odds with life. It calls on you not to be ashamed.”

    “So, if you don’t fit in, if you feel at odds with the world, if your identity is troubled and frayed, if you feel lost and ashamed – it could be because you have retained the human values you were supposed to have discarded. You are a deviant. Be proud.”

  9. Morrissey 9

    This is pretty much the same as happened to Malcolm Evans twelve years ago

    Look what happened to a Sydney Morning Herald columnist who dared to speak out against Israel’s crimes. A fortnight of the foulest abuse….

    http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1407325046.html

    • Draco T Bastard 9.1

      Not being able to criticise Israel is pretty much a worldwide disease now.

    • swordfish 9.2

      Yep, immediately put me in mind of Malcolm Evans when I heard about it, Moz.

      And, at the time, the small, local, loosely-organised Israel Lobby couldn’t even get their rationale straight. They were by no means singing from the same songbook. You had Israel’s Honorary Consul, David Zwartz, saying the objections had nothing to do with Evans’s criticism of Israel per se, but it was simply his use of the Star of David to symbolise Israel which was apparently deeply deeply offensive and borderline racist , implicitly attacking the whole Jewish Culture (I can only assume that Zwartz therefore went on demand the Star of David be removed from the Israeli flag so that this sort of anti-Semitism through conflation no longer arose ?).

      Unfortunately, at precisely the same time, David Cohen, the New Zealand MSM’s most high-profile Israel apologist, neo-conservative bore and would-be Internationally Celebrated Man of Letters, was (through his NBR column and on TVNZ’s Eating Media Lunch) pushing precisely the opposite spin to Zwartz. This was apparently all about Evans’s unhealthy obsession with Israel……Evans, as Cohen argued, had been asked by The Herald management to desist from drawing cartoons critical of Israel but was apparently unable to comply (with Cohen’s unspoken implication being – that’s because he’s an anti-Semite).

      But it gets worse, because you then had the NZ Jewish Chronicle insisting on a third and entirely different rationale for why Evans needed to be sacked – apparently Evans had drawn the Israeli Ambassador bending down to answer a question about Israel’s killing of Palestinian children from a small kiwi child. And this, to The Chronicle implied he had a bent back and wasn’t that sort of stooped pose precisely the sort of imagery that German anti-Semitic/Nazi cartoonists favoured in the 30s ?

      And then a fourth rationale popped up, as with Le Lievre now, Evans was accused of drawing Israelis with large noses.

      Actually, if memory serves me right, the Sydney Morning Herald cartoonist in 2003 was either fired or censured for precisely the same thing, drawing a cartoon critiquing Sharon’s murderous attack on the West Bank and employing Israel’s national symbol to do it.

  10. North 10

    Morning Report a short while ago – Little Guyon ‘Spinner darting around like an angry attack puppy snapping at Cunliffe’s trouser legs over Lochinver. Little Guyon firmly put in his place though with a sharpish recommendation to get himself clued up about NZ’s free trade agreements.

    Then not 15 minutes later the unmistakeable bias reflected in the RNZ 7.30 am news bulletin – “David Cunliffe says whatever about Lochinver but admits he hasn’t even read the OIO application……” A wilfully dishonest synopsis of what Cunliffe said and how he said it. Who the hell wrote that ?

    Let the cold wind of imminent joblessness fly right up that snapping little Young Nat’s bum-freezer jacket. I’ve never ever heard him go off at TheGodKey like that – ‘skim-the-surface’ soundbite mumblings……”thank you Prime Minister.”

    Morning Report is an important organ for accountability in a healthy, transparent democracy. It should not be in the hands of this contemptible, hubristic Young Nat.

    • i can’t listen to it any more..too too biased/govt. arse-kissing..

      ..and little different from the radio lives/newstalk zb’s of this world..

      ..espiner was hired because of his record in broadcasting as a rightwing-trout…

      ..the role of national radio is to hold those in power to account..no matter their political-brand..

      ..at this espiner/morning report fail…

    • Draco T Bastard 10.2

      I hope you’ve got an official complaint going.

    • greywarbler 10.3

      @North 7.58
      I have decided that Guy Le Spinner (I got that from someone else here) is an annoying little shit who gets in the way of elucidating (that’s probably not in his lexicon) the actual information we want to hear. He will interrupt as someone goes to answer his question, and appears to be doing so in a direct manner, and Guy will say ‘Well is it, what do you say, let us hear it’ etc etc and delay and smother the answer, apparently hoping to befuddle and shake up his respondent. I had hoped that he was going to develop a mature, clever approach but nah.

      If he is around for too long he will have run out of any goodwill that is left in the minds of determined citizens requiring good information coverage, Someone will push him at the top of some steps. This is how right wingers deal with people that annoy them, and lefties may find the temptation to copy irresistible.

    • Rodel 10.4

      North- Espiner’s interview with David Cunliffe was a good robust interchange.
      Cunliffe proving to be a formidable positive debater, presenting facts and refusing to be baited by Espiner’s pre-loaded , “you’re saying blah blah.”.techniques.

      He even managed to avoid using David Lange’s humorous put downs.

      When David Lange was confronted with this technique he’d reply with something
      like. ” No. I’m saying what I just said. What part didn’t you understand? ”

      I’d agree with you that Espiner probably wouldn’t have the courage to interview the PM in the same way.

    • Lanthanide 10.5

      I thought the interview was perfectly acceptable and appropriate.

  11. Tiger Mountain 11

    Metiria Turei made to leave Mangere WINZ office! while visiting Auckland Action Against Poverty IMPACT action. https://www.facebook.com/metiria?hc_location=timeline

    “Just been politely but firmly thrown out of the Mangere WINZ office. Ive been at the advocacy Impact at Mangere WINZ, talking with the advocates about the extent to which beneficiaries are still not getting their full entitlements. Then on the advice from the Ministers office, management asked that I leave. Protocols and all that. But for just this one hour I was transported back 25 years when I was doing this work. Nothing has changed for the better for people in need of some help. And needing help should not be an excuse for being treated like a second class citizen.

    We will roll back these cruel welfare reforms. We will restore the principles of decency and justice in social security. National is hurting families. We have to make them stop.”
    –From Metiria’s fb.

    • Tim 11.1

      “Then on the advice from the Ministers office, management asked that I leave.”

      ….. mmmm, so they DO interfere in operational matters!

    • bad12 11.2

      Applause to Metiria, good to see She has gone back to the coal-face for a reminder of where it all began,(where i first met Her),

      All beneficiaries are behind the inflation curve by at least 50 bucks and solo parents by at least $100, addressing this fundamental shortfall in the benefit levels cannot simply be by means of ”work will set you free”,

      It is obvious to Everybody now that no matter what the economic settings are within the current economic paradigm there will be at least 200,000 working age Kiwi’s reliant on benefits All The Time, whether or not they are long or short term recipients,

      This historic shortfall in income can be addressed directly, or, indirectly, for example, at a point of Low Income,(insert amount), everybody, and by that i mean everybody including those working with low wages, should BY LAW, only be paying as rent 25% of their household income, full stop,

      We can keep playing the inflation game where wages go up and those in control of commerce, rental housing, etc etc simply move the price of such commerce up to in effect ‘steal’ the wage rise,

      i prefer the ‘other way’, cut the biggest cost, Rent, for those who struggle with low incomes to 25% of their income…

      • Clemgeopin 11.2.1

        “Applause to Metiria, good to see She has gone back to the coal-face for a reminder of where it all began”

        Elections being so close now, is an added incentive to go there.

        “This historic shortfall in income can be addressed directly, or, indirectly, for example, at a point of Low Income,(insert amount), everybody, and by that i mean everybody including those working with low wages, should BY LAW, only be paying as rent 25% of their household income, full stop,”

        I agree with that even though you ended it with a comma.
        Should you preferably say, “a maximum of 25%” of household income?

        • bad12 11.2.1.1

          Lolz Clemeopin, is that a criticism, hell its kissing babies time also known as the election so Mets and everyone else will be out in the real world and the hope is there that She has the issue of ‘welfare’ front and center in Her mind in any coalition negotiations…

          • Clemgeopin 11.2.1.1.1

            I have what I consider, as a much better option re rents. I prefer not to state it here today as I have sent my ‘great’ idea to the Labour party for their consideration and if I state that idea here now, some other two bit party may try to steal it and try to steal some votes off Labour. We wouldn’t want that, would we! Would you?

    • greywarbler 11.3

      @ Tiger M 8.03
      Your piece about Metiria Turei’s treatment reminds me of something that Georgina Beyer related at the IMP meeting I went to last night.

      She was asked to leave her new job as a salesperson in Michael Hill because she had made the comment that she might stand for, I think, local government. The manager said that he didn’t like the sound of that, and she might then be leaving sometime in the future, and so put her out of her job under the 90 days fire at will regulations. So then she had to apply for unemployment.

      She said it was quite a turn around from when she has been in those offices in her official capacity. (But the problem for her is that she doesn’t have the right connections that the right has, that enable them to swan off. And she said that the pollies super has changed to less than the public perception, though didn’t specify how.)

      • alwyn 11.3.1

        “and so put her out of her job under the 90 days fire at will regulations”
        You are of course aware that this claim by Beyer is impossible?
        She left Michael Hill in 2010 and this law didn’t come into existence until 2011.
        Oh well, one never expected reality to intrude in Georgina’s world.

        • Clemgeopin 11.3.1.1

          +1, particularly if your dates are correct.

          • alwyn 11.3.1.1.1

            Yes they are.
            Here is the claim by Georgina. It is not directly the one greywarbler heard but it is the same claim. Note that the local body election was in 2010 so it had to be that year that she left Michael Hill:

            “In 2010, she aimed for the Masterton mayoralty while working for Michael Hill Jeweller in Masterton, but claims her interest in the contest led to her losing her job”
            That is from
            http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/6154368/Former-MP-Georgina-Beyer-unemployed

            Here is the date of the 90 day trial bill

            “From 1 April 2011 all employers will be able to employ new employees on a trial period of up to 90 calendar days.”
            This is from the Department of Labour at
            http://www.dol.govt.nz/workplace/knowledgebase/item/1517

            David Farrar also commented on this but I’ve given you sources you may regard as neutral.

            • Clemgeopin 11.3.1.1.1.1

              Ok, thanks.

            • greywarbler 11.3.1.1.1.2

              @ alwyn 5.40
              Thanks. Great we can rely on you to correct all the irrelevant facts hope you can help with the relevant ones.

              And my impression of Georgina’s meaning was just that. I may have got it wrong. Or she may have been fired within the 90 day period of her starting, even though that Bill had not been passed. It would then presumablyhave had some other grounds needed to justify sacking.

              It’s what could happen now though, so regard it as a possible example of the sad lack of controls for workers. Her, or me, being not correct doesn’t mean everything is hunky dory.

              • alwyn

                I am afraid I learned a long time ago that what Georgina says and what actually happened don’t have much relationship to each other. If we are expected to support a party based on what they say in their speeches I think that the fact that they are telling fairy stories is of some moment.
                I would like to think that the fact that they are telling porkies is always relevant, wouldn’t you?

    • karol 11.4

      Also a very good post about the impact by Simon Buckingham, on The Daily Blog:

      Queues stretching around the block. Crowds flocking to enter a building on the hope that their meagre subsistence can be increased by an uncaring Government Department, whilst the Minister, resplendent in luxury as an Apparatchik, claims that there is no issue. People getting frustrated as there are hundreds of people to be seen by a handful of volunteers and not enough time to see everyone

      We are not talking about North Korea. This is not Soviet Russia. This is New Zealand today, 7 August 2014.
      […]
      Before we begin, let me clarify. Last year when I was helping at the New Lynn WINZ office, I had the single mum who was sexually violated. She had her child, and WINZ wrongly started deducting the $20 per week for not naming the father. This was an error, as rape is the exemption, but this error had deducted $20 per week for ten years for being a victim. We managed to secure her a $10,000 rebate at a time that she needed the break!
      […]
      The second question is where? I know AAAP is trying to keep it non-political, but where are our Politicians? Metiria Turei swung by yesterday, much to the horror of the WINZ office. I am here as a private person, though I am on the Labour Party List. We have Green and Labour interest, which is fantastic, but if all is well in the Kingdom of Benefit, where is the Minister to tell us and John Campbell that all is well?

  12. Chooky 12

    David Cunliffe godd and strong and angry on Morning Report despite Espiner’s futile terrier ankle attack!

    The sale of New Zealand land is something that concerns ALL New Zealanders and could cost John Key the Election.

    ‘How Lochinver Station costs Key the election, our free market land ownership madness and China backlash’

    By Martyn Bradbury / August 7, 2014

    “The announcement of the $70million Lochinver Station sale to a hulking Chinese company is probably the last thing John Key would have wanted this week.
    The idea of Chinese companies buying up large tracts of NZs farming asset is perceived as worse than wealthy investors because state backed Chinese companies are effectively an arm of the Chinese Government. Allowing another country to have that level of influence over vital sections of your economy is as disquieting as John Key signing our economic sovereignty away to the Americans with the TPPA….

  13. ianmac 13

    John Key is broadcast making statements on National Radio. But when was the last time he was interviewed/challenged on any of those statements?
    Every Opposition Leader is challenged and every little detailed aggressively explored. But Key gets a free pass. Isn’t this how Putin retains his position?

    • Tiger Mountain 13.1

      Key has his morning back rub and hot towel session while talking to Guyon E’Spinner on Morning Report which has been put in my “don’t bother listening live” slot after all these years. It used to be riveting radio for politics junkies, Kim Hill slicing into a duplicitous hungover minister early in the morning. And in later years Geoff Robinson keeping some dignity and paying attention to detail.

      Now it is run to a script literally. I just play the occasional audio that others link to or I spot on the RNZ app.

      Kim Il Key. Dear Leader.

      • Lanthanide 13.1.1

        Personally I always found Geoff Robinson to be much more of a lightweight and more biased when interviewing politicians than Guyon is.

    • Blue 13.2

      I think Putin would be jealous as hell of Key. Putin has to apply a certain amount of, ah, pressure to get the media to behave like tame poodles for him. Key apparently just has to exist and the media can’t offer to shine his shoes for him fast enough.

      Even in a country as small as New Zealand you’d think there would be some enterprising media person willing to break with the pack for an advantage. Because you get such delicious reactions out of Dear Leader when he is challenged. He basically throws a huge wobbly when he is not treated with the adoration he believes he deserves.

    • Clemgeopin 13.3

      +100.

      Key is not interviewed in-depth on serious issues. Not enough anyway, often superficially and is given a much easier ride, an unfair and shameful Prime Ministerial deference, compared to how the opposition leaders are treated, especially Labour!! We have a crap unbalanced set of idiot journalists in this country. That should be pretty obvious to most people watching the media with an open mind, I think.

      The flip side is that Cunliffe can come across as a better and stronger performer! So, all good!

  14. The Lone Haranguer 14

    “This historic shortfall in income can be addressed directly, or, indirectly, for example, at a point of Low Income,(insert amount), everybody, and by that i mean everybody including those working with low wages, should BY LAW, only be paying as rent 25% of their household income, full stop”

    So Bad 12, does that mean that landlords will need to see the last years income from IRD for their new tenants? Or that they can ay “rent is $500 so house is only available to those with proven income of $100,000 pa?”

    Either way, the low paid will struggle to get any half decent housing in half decent areas.

    Option two is that the Landlord sets the rent at $600, (place went up in value aye) and the tenant pays $125 (quarter of their income) and the State pays the balance of $475.

    How how the hell will the tenant ever make the jump from tenant to property owner when he/she/they have to pay maybe $800 per week in repayments…..

  15. greywarbler 15

    Talking on Radionz about sale of land to foreign owners. The speaker thinks about 10% of productive land plus possibly housing though the firm figure appears to be 8.7%. In 2005 Labour altered the tracking method by wiping the statistics gathering. Something that they can rectify when they get into government!

    Murray Horton is secretary/ organiser of the Campaign Against Foreign Control of Aotearoa (Cafca)
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/ninetonoon

    • Chooky 15.1

      +100 greywarbler …good to hear Kathryn Ryan interviewing Murray Horton…that guy is one smart cool dude…always has been…calling for a moratorium on the issue is a good idea

  16. Ad 16

    Good red blooded stuff from Cunliffe on Lochnvar Station.

    It’s one of those moves that will get several percentage of undecideds off the fence for Labour. Every leftie party should get behind this with no equivocation.

    If anyone is worried about interfering with the evaluative process, lets firstly remember Key’s neck-deep interference in the Sky City and Lord of the Rings deals (such “interference” is in a Prime Ministers’ job description), and secondly let’s remember this: it’s an election. DC’s preferences will rise when bespeaks from the gut not the notes.

    And finally, there’s nothing wrong with just a smidgen of patriotic appeal from Labour. It’s time they took back more of this ground – many New Zealanders would respond if he stood for more strong moves.

    • Chooky 16.1

      +100 Ad…yes if Cunliffe carries on in this vein he will draw votes for Labour…this issue cuts across the whole political spectrum

    • Draco T Bastard 16.2

      Labour and the other left wing parties would, IMO, get a massive boost in the polls if they said that foreign sales would be banned outright.

      • Clemgeopin 16.2.1

        No, that would be stupid.

        Foreign sales (I would include business too) are Ok if ANY one of the following conditions are met:

        [1] The buyer first becomes a citizen of NZ or permanent resident.
        [2] The sale for foreigners or foreign entities can NEVER be on an outright ownership basis, but only on a lease basis if there is definite demonstrable economic and substantial employment opportunities for Kiwis for the long term and Kiwi entrepreneurs/investors are unable to provide that.
        [3] or it could be on an almost equal partnership basis, with the ownership of foreign citizens/residents limited to 49% with the majority 51% partnership being with a local Kiwi.

        I think they are fair and smart conditions,

        I am petty sure no country can object to such patriotic and wise rules.
        Why would they? Don’t THEY have similar rules?

        • Draco T Bastard 16.2.1.1
          1. Then they wouldn’t be foreign sales
          2. Foreign ownership/lease never provides any benefits greater than the cost
          3. And then they’ll lobby for full ownership

          And Cunliffe just did the right thing. Still a question of how far he and Labour will go on it though.

  17. “..Guess Which Country the UN Says Is the World Leader at Smoking Marijuana..

    ..The people of Iceland are the happiest on Earth –

    • according to an academic study reported by the Guardian in 2006.

    The UN’s latest Human Development Index ranking showed Iceland topping the charts as far as its economic and social issues go (wealth – healthcare – and education).

    Last month Iceland won another top world ranking:

    • most pot smoked per capita..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.alternet.org/drugs/guess-which-country-un-says-world-leader-smoking-marijuana

    • The Al1en 17.1

      Open mike 07/07/2014

      You ran this story a month ago, claiming NZ/Aus were the biggest pot smokers per capita.
      If you remember, I corrected you because you had it wrong.
      Dodgy memory, pu? Ever wonder why? lol

      “..always/still the first with the best..eh..?”

  18. wyndham 18

    Yes Greyw. Good discussion The man from Landcorp (Chris Kelly?) started off by saying that foreign ownership was a mere 1.7% of NZ land and that Lochinver Station, whilst large was not a big deal.
    His “facts” were demolished by Murray Horton of CAFCA in a stunning display of someone who has all the real figures at his fingertips The true figure of foreign ownership is in excess of 8%. I will acknowledge that Kelly finally agreed with everything that Horton had to say.

  19. Belladonna 19

    Yes David came across as a leader on this mornings interrogation by Guyon Espiner.
    Karyn Hay and Andrew Fagan are having a policy only night on each Thursday until the election at 7pm – 10pm. Policies only to be discussed, Tonight’s episode is finance with David Parker, Joyce and the other parties finance spokesperson.
    I find Karyn and Andrew to be fair most of the time when it comes to politics. The rest of Radio Live not so much.

  20. North 20

    Tiger Mountain @ 11 – Go Metiria !

    Recently a mature member of my whanau attended a 20-25 person WINZ seminar in South Auckland. Opening words (directive) from the ‘race = other’ facilitator – “This is MY house….you abide MY rules….or you LEAVE !”

    My whanaunga’s sense of a multi-generational turangawaewae in South Auckland was of course immediately lit up by this gratuitous intimidation (“shut your mouth or no benefit….”). This rough appropriation of an entirety in which my whanaunga is generationally rooted; this risible invoking then distortion by manuhere (visitor) of the concept of turangawaewae; this bullying display of negative predisposition. He expressed in a non-aggressive observational way. He was ordered to leave. Straight to the ‘race = other’ next up the ladder who condescended to non-listen. Straight to the Health and Disability Commissioner. No outcome yet.

    These ungifted, inept people must be fought at every turn. They are cheap bullies so artless in their functionality as to defeat such purpose as these ‘events’ are fantastically calculated to achieve. Cowardly ciphers ‘following orders’ in a chain of command notionally directed to upliftment but in fact deploying and celebrating social thuggery as the norm.

    Notably my whanaunga reports that after such ‘events’ discussion between attendees, while identifying risible ‘stroke-of-the-pen’ verbiage, focuses not on that which is nominally sought to be imparted but rather on the arrogance and disrespect to which attendees are subject.

    Who knows how much resource is squandered in this dark, vengeful social engineering ?

    • crocodill 20.1

      Kinda makes a mockery of the “cultural sensitivity” requirement during employment processes for government depts. Perhaps yet another case of… what did you call it… “race=other” appropriating the words, but never intending to comprehend the intent? On the upside, I’m happy to hear that your whanau still values the kind of things that people need to come together peacefully, and are not afraid to pursue them. Pretty rare these days. The bullies won’t last.

  21. Rodel 21

    Sorry to repeat myself but I’m still bemused at realising (thanks to Mike Hoskings) that the title name of the right wing blog,
    ‘Whale Oil- Beef Hooked’ if said quickly is contrived acronym for, “Well I’ll be f*cked”.

    I think this as an example of John Key’s good friend and confidante’s humour should be explained to mums and dads and grandparents who might still believe in that nice Mr Key.

  22. Bearded Git 22

    Excellent article by Peter Lyons here on Labour’s policy to increase the minimum wage by $2:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11304972

    I particularly liked this bit:

    “There is an irony in the debate over the exorbitant salaries paid to top management and the cuts in top income tax rates. These trends are often justified by the need to ensure these people are motivated and work harder. Such logic is seldom applied to the wages paid to the lowest income earners in the economy.”

  23. Sanctuary 23

    Clear evidence National’s internal polling has turned real ugly for the Nacts:

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2014/08/have_i_got_this_right.html

    • Puckish Rogue 23.1

      Theres always been the hint of anti-semitism when it comes to the (irrational) hatred of John Key by the left

      • marty mars 23.1.1

        That was probably a gnat supporter – dirty tricks 101 mate.

      • weka 23.1.2

        citation needed PR. Anytime I’ve seen anyone on ts do the anti-semitism thing they get shit for it.

        • Puckish Rogue 23.1.2.1

          http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/04/apparently-made-mistake-john-key-nazi/

          • You don’t need to read the article but the painting is quite disgusting

          http://blackcatsramblings.info/non-jewish-people-died-in-the-war-too

          http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2013/12/martyn-bradbury-anti-semite/

          • This ones generally anti-semite rather than specifically John Key but still

          http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/07/scott-simpson-dunedin/

          I don’t think most of the left are anti-semites (at least i hope not) but when you have someone like KDC inciting young people well you reap what you sow…

          • weka 23.1.2.1.1

            Sorry, but you can’t be expected to be taken seriously if all you can do is link to WO.

            • Puckish Rogue 23.1.2.1.1.1

              The links are of images posted on Whaleoil not commentary however I do understand that its easier to ignore rather than confront such appalling behaviour from some sections of the left

              • weka

                Are you really that stupid?

                1. the first image is of Key in a Nzi uniform. How is that anti-semitic? It looks to me like someone is comparing Key with the Nzis.
                2. the image is refenced back to kiwiblog, who make his usual smeary kind of accusations, which basically amount to someone on the interwebs putting up a request on FB for donations to get the poster printed and getting 41 likes. How you think that is an example of widespread anti-semitism within the left is beyond me.

                Needless to say, I’m not bothering clicking through to WO to check the other images.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  As I said its the hint of anti-semitism, these people only want point out Keys jewish heritage then slink away like the cowards they are.

                  So theres one image of Key in a Nazi uniform which, considering what his mother faced, is in pretty poor form

                  One of Key looking like Hitler

                  A general image of anti-semetism from The Daily Blog

                  and a couple of Keys hoardings vandalised using jewish iconography

                  Theres a rotten underbelly in the left whether you want to acknowledge it or not

                  • felix

                    “So theres one image of Key in a Nazi uniform which, considering what his mother faced, is in pretty poor form

                    One of Key looking like Hitler”

                    Anti-semitic? Seems more like you’re offended by anti-fascist imagery.

                    “these people only want point out Keys jewish heritage then slink away like the cowards they are.”

                    Yeah that’s you, dude. That’s what you just did. No-one else gives a damn that Key is occasionally jewish.

                  • tricledrown

                    puckish rogue of that rotten underbelly left and joined ACT and whyte power!

    • marty mars 23.2

      I agree – they dirty hounds will be given free rein now and they will debase us all with their disgusting tactics.

  24. More positive press for Labour and the Greens in the past few days than I’ve seen for quite a while.

    It’s warming to note while the nats embroil themselves with kdc’s lapdogs over sugar daddies and the unprincipled opportunist extreme left wing, the traditional center and green left are looking more and more electable.

    35%+15% isn’t beyond reach at all. More good policy and an honest campaign free of being tainted by the dotcom parties could well be enough to really celebrate come election night. The sensible left in NZ will rightfully rejoice.

    Tell your friends, we’re really close. Vote green/red if you want to change the government in September.

    • bad12 24.1

      🙄 Trawling for the usual flame are you Alien 🙄

      • weka 24.1.1

        You have to admit it’s funny and ironical seeing the GP being presented as part of the sensible, reliable left, lolz.

        • The Al1en 24.1.1.1

          But they are, aren’t they? They’re not the party of flakes once portrayed. They are credible and electable being the point. Good work by all in the party to achieve such a positive turn around.

          It would be a shame if personal mip idealism got in the way of a plus for Green politics.

          • weka 24.1.1.1.1

            “But they are, aren’t they? They’re not the party of flakes once portrayed. They are credible and electable being the point. Good work by all in the party to achieve such a positive turn around.”

            That’s missing the whole point. The GP were never the flakes they were portrayed as. Ditto IMP. It’s normal for new parties to make newbie mistakes. It’s also normal that when parties like the GP that were once more radical gain enough power to move into the mainstream that this opens space on the edge for something else. We need all the voices, and this marginalisation of the people on the edge sucks. The edge has always led the way. You think that AGW is on the agenda now because the mainstream wanted it there? Or that the Māori rennaissance in NZ happened because middle NZ wanted it? Or that women got the vote, homosexuality was decriminalised, we have a welfare state, we have some environmental protections… you think all those things happened because one day the mainstream decided they were good? What really happened was the radicals and people on the edge pushed the agenda on those issues until the mainstream shifted and accepted them as normal. Then things changed. That’s how politics works in this country.

            This whole ‘radical = extremism = should be disenfranchised’ thing is shit, and very disappointing to see it coming from lefties (not just you, there’s been a bit of it here this week).

            • The Al1en 24.1.1.1.1.1

              “This whole ‘radical = extremism = should be disenfranchised’ thing is shit, and very disappointing to see it coming from lefties (not just you, there’s been a bit of it here this week).”

              We can’t all be wrong, wood for trees etc… though radical/extremist doesn’t = disenfranchised.
              I’ve not argued you (if that’s how you identify yourself) shouldn’t have a voice, just be accepting that you are fringe and you can’t control debate if you don’t have the numbers. You have an equal voice, sure, but it’s disproportional representation when it’s shouty.

        • marty mars 24.1.1.2

          Another reason to thank IMP – the Greens though hmmm a few at the IMP meeting last night who i know are Greenies maybe moving the IMP way. Personally I hope we get a strong Green voice in there – that’ll get up winnies nose more than anything.

          • The Al1en 24.1.1.2.1

            Sure you can spin it like that if you’re a knob head intent on pushing a minor party agenda.

            • marty mars 24.1.1.2.1.1

              zip it sweaty

            • bad12 24.1.1.2.1.2

              The leaking fart sack also known as Alien can’t help itself, i suppose we are going to be subjected to this failure’s raving diatribe of hatred all the way to the election,

              What ‘it’ is obviously intent on promoting is a ‘flame’ between InternetMana and Green supporters here on the Standard,

              In doing so ‘it’ will feel as if ‘it’ has campaigned really hard for the party ‘it’ supports, the fact is the Green Party are more than happy to have InternetMana as part of the electoral landscape,

              InternetMana being there means the heat usually directed at the Green Party is focused by the ‘wing-nuts’, Alien included, on the InternetMana alliance and less so on the Green Party,

              Obviously everyone supporting InternetMana wants to respond to Alien’s attempts at flame starting, but, doing so for the next 8 weeks is going to wreck the flow of ‘Open Mike’ and i would suggest responding to ‘it’ thus 🙄 🙄 🙄 ,

              ‘It’ is here not for the imparting of useful info, ‘it’ is here solely to shit stir…

              • The Al1en

                Wanting a green lab government is now ‘raving diatribe of hatred”.
                With the greatest of respect, your insults show you to be a bit one dimensional.
                To start crying over my overt disdain for mip exposes you as a bit of a hypocrite, given your responses to anyone who disagrees with your views, especially the ones you labour over and over again like nobody heard you the first time.
                I won’t trade insults with you, so you’ll just have to take that like a man, but remember, you are the political minority with an equal voice, no need to insult and shout me down.

      • The Al1en 24.1.2

        And it’s wrong to push the red/green vote now?
        Goosey gander and all that.

        Serious comment on the media and press perception, with genuine hopes for the 35% + 15%
        Come on Greens and Labour.

      • marty mars 24.1.3

        lol – he’s not getting enough attention poor little wee fellow…

        • The Al1en 24.1.3.1

          I’m fine, bro. You seem to be in a bit of a spin (pun intended) about it though.

          • marty mars 24.1.3.1.1

            sure geezer – btw do you agree with key about the sugardaddy thing?

            sorry mispelled meant greezer 🙂

            • The Al1en 24.1.3.1.1.1

              Yep, he nailed it, just like anyone with half a brain would have foreseen coming.
              Harre wouldn’t be there without kimmies money, just like hh would have anything to do with him either.

              But to be clear, I think key agreed with me, rather than the other way around.

              “sorry mispelled meant greezer”

              You also didn’t use ‘misspelt’, but I got your back, bro.

              • Cool, so you’re as sexist as john key – noted.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Harres taken KDCs coin so now she has accept that people see her as bought and paid for, Key also agreed that KDC was also Harawiras sugar daddy as well

                  If KDC wasn’t bankrolling the whole thing she wouldn’t be there so unfortunately for her people will vote with their heads not their hearts 🙂

                  • Rubbish and complete double standards mate – key donates to a charity called the gnats and he’s as pure as driven snow?

                    The line was either scripted by key who used it deliberately in a sexist way or he stuffed up and let his mouth dribble too much and said what he finks. Either way the desperate rats/gnats are spitting, swarming and spinning – the true face of key being revealed daily and oh how unpleasant that real face is.

                    you wanted a trader – you got him – only he’ll trade you and everyone else to protect and enhance his own skin – welcome to reality…

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      you wanted a trader – you got him – only he’ll trade you and everyone else to protect and enhance his own skin – welcome to reality…

                      • Being that his personal popularity is the stuff of Cunliffes dreams and Nationals been voted back twice now i’d say I’m comfortable with him remaining leader as is enough intelligent kiwis
                    • Mate you’ll be comfortable right up to the moment you get ‘put’ on the wrong side and then it will get very uncomfortable. But it’s all good – we will get who we vote for.

                  • weka

                    “Harres taken KDCs coin so now she has accept that people see her as bought and paid for,”

                    evidence that Harre is bought and paid for like a prostitute? See, I thought she was on a salary, had an employment contract, and was a strong, intelligent, articulate politician capable of making her own decisions and being part of a team that worked together.

                    You do realise that the term sugar daddy refers to women who trade sex for money or gifts?

                    *and of course there is the convoluted smear, because Key wants to make out that there is something morally wrong with prostitution and thus there is something wrong with Harre, despite the fact that sex work in NZ is legal. He’s a sexist idiot, and so are you PR. Shall we all now start referring to Key as the US One Percenter’s bumboy?

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Shall we all now start referring to Key as the US One Percenter’s bumboy?

                      • Call him what you like, hes not the one playing the sexism card
                    • felix

                      chris, you’re a moran. Key is the one playing the sexism.

                • The Al1en

                  It’s not sexist, it just doesn’t portray saint Harre in a good light, which understandably you don’t like, but not sexist when taken in a political context.

                  • weka

                    Calling a woman politician a prostitute is not sexist?

                    • The Al1en

                      He didn’t call her a whore, but more to the point, neither did I.
                      Certainly rich benefactor expecting something in return sounds about right.

                      Urban dictionary.
                      “She uses her sugar daddy for his money, but he sure gets some service in return!”

                      I would say political service, not sexual, but you can read in to it what you will.
                      Point remains she wouldn’t be there without the money.

                    • Sure allen twist and shout all you like but Laila knew exactly the meaning that key intended and so do a lot of people. She is the leader of a political party, 6 weeks from an election, being subjected to disgusting sexist abuse from the Prime Minister and you agree with him – shame on you

                    • weka

                      stop being obtuse Al1en. Those services are sexual, that’s the general meaning of sugar daddy. Key’s clear implication was that not that Harre was being paid for being a good politician, but that she was selling herself somehow to a rich man in a way that society deems to be less than moral. Which is pretty rich coming from him lolz, but then we know that he doesn’t give a shit.

                      Even with your interpretation, there is no evidence that Harre has been ‘bought’. You just like to see her that way because of your antipathy towards KDC. That says more about you than anything.

                    • The Al1en

                      She wouldn’t be there without kim’s cash. Call it for what it is, even if you want to soften it up and call it political expediency.

                      You can’t convince me it isn’t true so you attack the messenger.
                      If I have to state Harre isn’t a prostitute for the record I’ll do so, but she’s only there because of the cash, in my opinion, so make of it what you will, like key did.

                    • “She wouldn’t be there without kim’s cash”

                      How the fuck would you know? You are just making it up to fit your right-wing agenda. Laila’s has done more for this country and the people than you ever will even in your dreams but you are happy to abuse her and sully her motives for what? Your infantile personal agenda against IMP – what a little person you are.

                      I’ll call you and your mate john key sexist.

                    • The Al1en

                      So not resting that “defense” after all 😆

                      “right-wing agenda.”
                      ” sully her motives”
                      “you and your mate john key”

                      Dry your eyes mate. I want a Lab/Green government, you don’t.
                      Using your logic = gtfo tory sympathiser.

                    • Yep laugh away at all the hard won rights for women and others disadvantaged in society – what a hero you are.

                      and I’m quite happy to cry anytime I want and I do when I see arseholes like you ‘apparently’ voting for the Greens – lol no, I beeelieve you, I really do lol

                    • The Al1en

                      “Yep laugh away at all the hard won rights for women and others disadvantaged in society – what a hero you are.”

                      Setting that agenda again, bro. Sling enough sh!t and hope some of it sticks. Great philosophy, and probably why you’re a 1.5 percenter and always will be.

                      “and I’m quite happy to cry anytime I want and I do when I see arseholes like you ‘apparently’ voting for the Greens – lol no, I beeelieve you, I really do lol”

                      Consistent all the way through in my voting intentions.
                      I want a green/Lab government and you don’t. Using your logic, gtfo tory.
                      Class. Lulz.

                    • The Al1en

                      Anyway, what did you say about kimmy and his twitter ‘joke’ in which Batman shoots a prostitute?
                      Any more/less offensive than a political sugar daddy jibe?
                      Where do you stand on that?

                      Stones in glasshouses, mars.

                    • weka

                      “She wouldn’t be there without kim’s cash.”

                      What does that mean? That she is there ONLY because she is getting paid lots of money by KDC ie she isn’t there because she believes in the cause or IMP’s policies, it’s simply the money.

                      Or, that without KDC’s money the IMP wouldn’t exist and she wouldn’t have a job. If it’s that, then how is that any different than any other politician who is dependent on other people’s money for their income?

                    • The Al1en

                      My opinion, I believe she passionately cares for the internet party, it’s causes and goals… 1. Because of the money. 2.Because she has to now, because of the money.

                    • weka

                      ok, so you do basically think she is a whore. Good to know.

                    • The Al1en

                      I do believe the money was the draw, yes, but that’s your word, not mine.

                    • weka

                      well you believe that she is only in it for the money, and has sold out her own personal values and politics, and that it’s ok to use a whore analogy to refer to her, so why not call her a whore?

                      As I think marty has pointed out, there is of course absolutely no evidence to support your belief, which is what makes it so interesting. I alluded to this the other day, that your antipathy towards KDC is seriously skewing your view on things related, but the more I read the more I am inclinde to think that the antipathy towards KDC is adjunct to other things not the cause.

                    • The Al1en

                      You claim it’s a whore analogy, key made the comment, I agree with the sentiment behind it that she’s only in it for the money in a political context.

                      You can make up some sexist sh!t and pretend to be all offended and have a little crusade til the cows come home, but ultimately it will change nothing.
                      Enjoy it, it’s been a long time between drinks for you.

                    • weka

                      Nevertheless you still have absolutely no evidence to support your belief that Harre is only in it for the money and has sold out her values.

                    • The Al1en

                      You win, it’s only my considered opinion.

              • Sorry that was wrong of me – John Key is as sexist as you.

                • The Al1en

                  Either or, you’re just being overly offended for political effect.

                  • yeah I’d try and shut down the debate too if I was you

                    • The Al1en

                      I’m not calling for you to stop anything, in fact, it’s exactly the opposite.

                    • lol – “the defense rests m’lud”

                    • The Al1en

                      You’re the one trying to shut me up, not the other way round.
                      If you are resting your defence (defense?), you won’t need to follow my posts again, right?
                      Let’s see how that works out for you 😉

                    • I’d love to shut you up but your types love the sound (geddit?) of your own voice – nevermind right wingers always turn into right whingers after a time as you have done 🙂

                    • The Al1en

                      Right winger 😆

                      That’s just stupid, but again, not unexpected.

                      “I’d love to shut you up”

                      You should learn how to debate your points more effectively, though to be fair, you need better points to begin with.

                    • you’ve got form guv – first attack and try to sully a 17 year old successful woman trying to get young people to vote even though she can’t. And then agree with sexist remarks about the female leader of a political party that you don’t like. A real stand up bloke eh? err nay.

                    • The Al1en

                      😆

                      Got the sack for standing up to a dirty old man indecently assaulting a younger, female colleague.
                      Yeah, you got me, I’m a sick one alright 🙄

                    • yeah riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight I believe you I really really do…

                    • The Al1en

                      Whilst you’re believing, you can always answer the question about kimmies tweeted Batman kills prostitute ‘joke’.

                      So much hatred for not supporting mip. What losers some of you guys are turning out to be.
                      Is that really the voice of the far left in NZ? No wonder you’re marginalised.

                    • sorry didn’t mean to spoil storytime…

                    • The Al1en

                      That’s incredibly weak.
                      First the sh!t slinging, then lame follow ups. That’s probably why you are a 1.5 percenter.

                      If you want to argue policy, go for it. If you want to argue your case for mip in government, do so.
                      Childish insults are a waste of bandwidth.

                    • sorry allen i just don’t believe your bullshit especially when you crow about it on the net as a device to gain sympathy for yourself – that is weak and sad

                    • The Al1en

                      “crow about it on the net as a device to gain sympathy” 🙄

                      Actually it was more like therapy and very cathartic it was too. Thanks for that TS.

                      I recall stating I was on meds at the time, so interesting your take on interactions with sufferers of mental illness. Very enlightened of you. That’s really quite outrageous, and for a supposed caring leftie too.

                      And all because I don’t like mip. Now remind me of weak and sad again.

                    • The Al1en

                      Mate, feel free to bully and mock the sick. I’m all good and healed up, so no skin off my nose, but still, wow.

                    • I thought you were taking time out allen – I agree with you that you may need to – all the best – go into nature, that’s what I do when I need to centre myself again, and listen to sounds of nature – the water, the wind, the sea – it really helps me and may be of use to you.

                    • The Al1en

                      I am shocked that you’d resort to abusing the sick in a very personal attack, but like I wrote, I’m good.

                    • Yes I know your shocked I get that. I’m not going to engage with you anymore but you have interpreted incorrectly – I was attacking you but not because of your mental condition, your prescriptions or anything like that – it was because I just don’t believe what you say or your reasons for saying what you say – that’s it – no more or less. My advice – take the time out – we all need it and we all gain value from it.

    • swordfish 24.2

      “35%+15% isn’t beyond reach at all”

      35% for Labour ??? – You’re joking, right ?
      32% if they’re very, very lucky.
      That’s the best Labour can hope for now.

      15% for the Greens ? Possible (especially if MSM presents election as all over bar the shouting) BUT still fairly unlikely, I would have thought. 12% yes, 13% yes, 14% quite possible, 15% unlikely.

      By the same token, claims that IMP will take 5%, 7% even 10% border, I’m sorry to say, on the delusional. 2.5-3.0% rather more likely.

      Just a little too much wishful-thinking going on, bereft of any kind of solid statistical grounding.

      • The Al1en 24.2.1

        Nope 35+15 is a reachable target, especially with a good campaign.
        Of course, factor in a bit of left shreddage to mip and they could easily screw up the plan, which would mean the mips cause Labour and the Greens to coalesce with NZ1st.

        • bad12 24.2.1.1

          Alien sets up the excuses for losing the 2014 election even befor the votes are cast, that’s you Alien, a leaking fart sack of anti-InternetMana invective,

          A real loser,

          Did you have to suffer much pain to contort so as to look up your posterior in such a fashion as to be able to see a Labour/Green Government,

          When you have time to snap out of your delusion for a moment tell us wont you which polls show Labour/Green being able to form a Government without either NZFirst or InternetMana…

          • The Al1en 24.2.1.1.1

            I’m as anti mip as pu is lab/green/nz1st.

            Piss off with the cry baby act, you’re meant to be a hard man or something.

            • bad12 24.2.1.1.1.1

              The leaking fart sack, what a font of wisdom, come on oh wise one, tell us, which poll shows Labour/Green anywhere near being able to form a Government without either NZFirst or IntenetMana,

              What leaks from the fart-sack known as Alien is becoming more bizarre than Phillips most outrageous ravings…

              • The Al1en

                That’s just childish stuff, Bad.

                Using the latest Roy Morgan, the Greens need 3% Labour 5%

                If you think, like you constantly inform, mip will get another 2.5 -3.5%, why not my picks?
                Polls historically narrow before elections, so all to play for.
                No invective, no insults, no need for mip.

                • bad12

                  What’s childish is you Alien with the air whistling out of that fart sack of a mind of yours,

                  Take Labour for instance, how much of their coin this election will come from THE RICH, are Labour then bought and beholden to such donors,

                  The Green Party 60 thousand dollars from one very very RICH corporate, are the Greens now beholden to that bloke for His coin,

                  And,

                  IF, we were to be getting ugly, which until you continued the diatribe i was trying to not get into, IF DotCom has bought InternetMana and you agree with Slippery the PM’s description of this you then have to IF you were being HONEST attribute the same BOUGHT and BEHOLDEN statement to EVERY RICH sponsor of Slippery’s own National Party, the Labour Party, and , the Greens,

                  In the case of the Green Party tho IF the same ugliness is applied about RICH sponsors as used by you and Slippery the PM you would have to add something else wouldn’t you,

                  Cheap….

                  • The Al1en

                    Didn’t make it past the first insult bad.

                    • bad12

                      Oh really Alien, want to know something, you and Phillip are one and the same with only one difference,

                      When your screws become loose as they have for the past couple of days with your ongoing diatribe attacking InternetMana the printed form of your screws loose text is far more readable than Phillips,

                      You have just retreated into classic Phillip Ure, Wah Wah Wah your covering your eyes now you cannot handle the detail of the debate,

                      Tell us all Alien, what the fuck is the difference of DotCom donating to InternetMana and the RICH donating to the Greens,

                      If such donations buy the Party then the Green Party sure as hell sold itself for small change didn’t it…

                    • did someone take my name in vain..?..

                    • The Al1en

                      I asked

                      “If you think, like you constantly inform, mip will get another 2.5 -3.5%, why not my picks?
                      Polls historically narrow before elections, so all to play for.”

                      in response to

                      “tell us, which poll shows Labour/Green anywhere near being able to form a Government without either NZFirst or IntenetMana,”

                      And you ignore it and spew out attacks.
                      That’s not debate, that playground stuff.

                      “Tell us all Alien”

                      I did last time, remember?

                      But I’ll have another go. That link I posted from the election org place that shows donations over 30k. Only one for the greens.
                      kimmie splashing $3m+ and setting up a whole organisation is not the same as being a mere rich ‘donor’, it’s a completely different ball game altogether.
                      If you can’t or refuse to accept it, no worries, the brighter sparks will.

                    • bad12

                      i have expropriated your name for the moment as a useful tool in pointing out to Alien that despite His own self perceived superiority He/it is no better than anyone else, even you…

                    • bad12

                      Actually the RICH donor says 60 thousand Alien, so IF donations of money makes a Party bought and sold, the Greens were bought and sold really really cheaply,

                      The only difference i see is your envy, Greens sold out for a mere 60 grand must piss you off right…

                    • The Al1en

                      “despite His own self perceived superiority He/it is no better than anyone else”

                      No need for the inferiority complex on my account, but I thought we were talking about red/green getting 35+15, before you changed the topic to Mr Mills giving 60k and equating it to the same as kimmie buying hone and Harre.

                    • The Al1en

                      “Actually the RICH donor says 60 thousand Alien”

                      I told you the amounts the other day and even provided you with the link. Wtf?

                      The rest of that post proves you’re a bit retarded or acting at it.
                      Now fuck off if you can’t/won’t debate properly.

                    • bad12

                      30 Grand, $60 thousand, whats a few thou here and there, better get that ‘link’ back up boyo coz while Granny Herald aint the most reliable rag in the town they say the donation was $60k to the Greens and as much to Labour,

                      Gym boss donates $125k to Labour, Greens–NZHerald,

                      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id-1&objectid...

                      Laughable is your accompanying whine Alien, you do not get to choose how i debate and your attempt at telling me how to do so with its following smacks of the usual toy toss…

                    • bad12

                      By the way Alien, after we sort out how much coin the mega-rich owner of Les Mills gyms fame slipped the Greens way lets have a really really nice little chat about who this bloke is actually fronting for,

                      Pure Advantage??? ‘the usual suspects’ a group of business people who are all seriously rolling in the filthy lucre lurk in the background of ‘Pure Adavantage’,

                      The likes of Fairfax New’s and Radio Live ex CEO Joan Withers springs to mind,

                      Lets have a wee discussion about why these people, reeking of deep National Party connections all want to ‘buy in’ to the Green Party,

                      It should be fun…

                    • The Al1en

                      RETURNS OF PARTY DONATIONS EXCEEDING $30,000
                      http://www.elections.org.nz/parties-candidates/registered-political-parties/party-donations/donations-exceeding-30000/returns

                      Open mike 05/08/2014

                      “30 Grand, $60 thousand, whats a few thou here and there, better get that ‘link’ back up boyo coz while Granny Herald aint the most reliable rag in the town they say the donation was $60k to the Greens and as much to Labour,”

                      Exactly what I wrote. What’s your point?

                      “according to the elections site, one person gave over 30k to each totalling $60,000 G and $64,999 L. Labour also had another 50k and a 430k estate plus a union donation.”

                      “you do not get to choose how i debate and your attempt at telling me how to do so with its following smacks of the usual toy toss…”

                      There can’t be a debate if you ask a question, get an answer, ignore it and then move on to another unrelated point. That’s not how it works.

                    • The Al1en

                      You can suspect what you like about their motives, but be prepared for the feral backlash, oh no wait, that only happens when you question the motive behind kimmies multimillion dollar buy up. lol

                    • bad12

                      Oh is it size envy you have Alien, according to how you ascribe donations they are buying the politicians you have repeatedly pushed this view for the past couple of days,

                      This must be your view then, cost of Green Party sellout to business interests a miserably cheap all up 60 thousand dollars,

                      Cost of DotCom setting up Internet Party, millions, laugh out loud frigging millions Alien so eat your heart out you cheap little prick…

                    • The Al1en

                      Like I’ve written before, if you can’t/won’t accept that spending $3m+ on setting up a political party and buying politicians to front it is different from a $60k political donation, then you’re being willfully incompetent or blissfully ignorant. I don’t mind or care which.

                      But getting back to the original point, if you expect mip to rise another 3 or so percent, why can’t labour and the greens, bearing in mind polls historically narrow in the lead up to an election?
                      That makes 35+15 a distinct possibility, as stated and hoped for.

      • bad12 24.2.2

        Swordfish, the smaller numbers are not hell of an important issue, i view the September contest thus: Labour 33%, Green 12%, InternetMana 5%,

        Those numbers, IF either Hone or Annette Sykes win their electorate battles are pretty much interchangable,

        Example: Labour 32%, Green 14%, InternetMana 4% plus 1 electorate = still the same result as my first proposition…

    • Clemgeopin 24.3

      It would be very good and sensible to have the Internet Mana that represents a different constituency in the country be part of the government support party too. The Labour led government will do well to implement a few of the good policies of the Greens, Internet-Mana and possibly NZF too for maximum good of the general public and the country. The only criteria would be that the tails should be constructive, sensible in negotiating and implementing doable policies and not try to hamstring or wag the dog too much, because if that happens, the voters will punish all these parties in 2014.

      Hope wise heads prevail

      • The Al1en 24.3.1

        Before kdc I would have liked to see an all inclusive coalition, but since then, no thanks.

        • Clemgeopin 24.3.1.1

          It matters not what you or me r Key would like to see. What matters is what the majority, 51% of voters, want.

          • The Al1en 24.3.1.1.1

            Well unless they all think like you, the point is moot.
            I can, like always, only give a personal perspective, as I respect you have.

      • Clemgeopin 24.3.2

        oops, meant ‘because if that happens, the voters will punish all these parties in 2017’ (not 2014. In 2014 there is a much bigger chance for Labour led Government, than a National led one!)

  25. ianmac 25

    Wikipedia “Sugar daddy is a slang term for a man who offers to support a typically younger woman or man after establishing a relationship that is usually sexual.
    Key has made a mistake I reckon.

    • marty mars 25.1

      Exactly ianmac – the reference was explicitly sexual and this will bite him back quite hard i hope especially if the fire in Laila’s eyes last night, when she mentioned it, is any indication.

    • Kiwiri 25.2

      Mistake or not, NZ deserves better from a Prime Minister.
      Higher standard from a two-term, six-year, John Key, please.

    • Puckish Rogue 25.3

      Usually being the Key word however Harre can shriek as much as she likes but more of NZ will agree with John Key that shes put out for KDCs money than will agree with her

      • The Al1en 25.3.1

        “more of NZ will agree with John Key that shes put out for KDCs money than will agree with her”

        Politically put out, yes, I agree.
        DC is so correct to distance himself. The voters won’t forget it.

        • Puckish Rogue 25.3.1.1

          I guess I should also add that I in no way suggest theres anything sexual between Harre and KDC

        • bad12 25.3.1.2

          Slippery, all sweet fluff with no substance, hit the nail on the head there Marty…

      • Clemgeopin 25.3.2

        Do you think NZ public are fools?

        • Puckish Rogue 25.3.2.1

          National voted in twice and most polls show labour under 30% so no I don’t the NZ public are fools

          • Clemgeopin 25.3.2.1.1

            That is because Key is Nigel no friends!…except for some dead, revived or dying zombies!

            Labour’s 30 to 35% with other worthwhile caring friends is WAY more valuable than Nat/Act/UF/Cons/Maori P’s 44 to 47%!!

            Oh, dear how sad!

            What parting gift does Key deserve after this election when he goes off at sunset to Hawaii, USA?

            • Puckish Rogue 25.3.2.1.1.1

              Yet hes won two elections and on track to win a third but don’t worry I’ll be here after Sep 20th just to say I told you so

              What parting gift does Key deserve when he goes off at sunset to Hawaii, USA?

              • Arise Sir John
        • The Al1en 25.3.2.2

          Is that rhetorical?

          • ianmac 25.3.2.2.1

            Hang on. Doesn’t every party depend on financing?
            How about Mr Gibbs financing the ACT party. Is he a sugar daddy to Mr Whyte?
            How about Mr Craig buying his mate Christine Rankin for the Conservatives. Is Colin Christine’s Sugar Daddy?
            And National. Is Mr Key a Sugar Daddy to his Party?
            Crazy really.

            • Clemgeopin 25.3.2.2.1.1

              Key HELPED the Maori party with their big corporate bought donations from very rich people!

              God knows how many shadowy rick pricks, crooked corporates, dodgy immigrants, shady multinationals, Hollywood executive gangs have given now millions in secret to National!

              Going by the infestation of the National party election hoardings all over the road side, all over the country and even all over the country side, seems like they have spent millions of moola on those eye sores alone!

              Yep, working for the wealthy alright!

    • nadis 25.4

      or this from the OED:

      “A rich older man who lavishes gifts on a young woman in return for her company or sexual favours.”

      When I first heard Key I didn’t think of the connotations Harre is going on about it. Key merely enunciated what everyone sensible is thinking. Dotcom has paid Harre (and Hone) for a service, they are now beholden to him in a master/servant relationship and he will want to collect. At one level, I actually would like to see what happens when the IMP demand the halt to Dotcom’s extradition as the price of a supply deal.

      She has the right to be offended just as most of the population has the right to believe she is hypocrite (along with Hone). I think if we were watching a dance off between Key and Dotcom as to who is the sleaziest, Dotcom would win by a mile. Rape jokes on twitter anyone?

      I’d like to see Key up the ante and call Hone “Dotcom’s b*tch – bought and paid for.” (now that Kelvin Davis isn’t allowed to say it).

      • crocodill 25.4.1

        Is it interesting though? Would you use it as the reason to vote one way or another? It could be said that Key has and will be a Rent Boy for his whole life. Is saying it an insult, or a really boring not quite distracting hyperbolic yawn?

        • nadis 25.4.1.1

          It’s interesting in a prurient sense.

          It won’t change my vote. It tells me nothing I didn’t know about John Key (deep down he is a smart arse, he is very calculating, he is way smarter than the hopeful left paint him).

          It tells me nothing I didn’t know about Laila Harre (she’s smart and calculating, she’s chosen to cry outrage here for marketing reasons, her entire role smacks of hypocrisy. If Dotcom hadn’t funded the party she’d be nowhere within a hundred miles of him, and would describe him as everything she despises about capitalism).

          I don’t have a problem with either Key or Harre – they are politicians, and truth is the first casualty in anything they do.

          This is a sideshow, but in light of how dotcom continuously inserts foot in mouth (the F John Key video) it just adds to the hypocrite label for Laila. Maybe won’t hurt her as the IMP core market of around 3% of the population won’t care but the 97% will harden their views against IMP.

          • weka 25.4.1.1.1

            “she’s smart and calculating, she’s chosen to cry outrage here for marketing reasons, her entire role smacks of hypocrisy. If Dotcom hadn’t funded the party she’d be nowhere within a hundred miles of him, and would describe him as everything she despises about capitalism)”

            citation needed. I know you think you are expressing opinion, but when you say you know something about someone, it pays to be able to back it up. Please provide proof that Harre would otherwise despise KDC’s politics.

      • Puckish Rogue 25.4.2

        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11305399

        • Hows the moral high ground Laila? Bit shaky?
        • marty mars 25.4.2.1

          “Ms Harre said she had no problem with the video, adding that it was a spontaneous reaction and Kim Dotcom did not lead the chant.

          “The video is a true representation of youth expression. We are on the road to engage with young people over politics. We are not about censoring the way that young people engage.””

          Don’t need a poll when these chants go up from young people – nope time to put the barricades up and issue weapons, but that never saves them for long. You’ll be feeling triple puckish I suppose eh puck?

          • Puckish Rogue 25.4.2.1.1

            Harre can say what she likes but KDC calls the shots and she does what he wants

            • marty mars 25.4.2.1.1.1

              like some sort of vulcan mind control thingy

            • tricledrown 25.4.2.1.1.2

              Bad PRAnd 66% of New Zealand believe KDC is not lying while only 33% believe Brain fade Key is telling the truth!
              The next polls will show a huge surge of support for MIPespecially from the young who weren’t interested in politics or voting but like free downloads and faster internet speeds!

              • Clemgeopin

                The young don’t get polled as much as the polls are mostly via land lines! Non busy home bound people will be over represented. After which the poll companies try to ‘adjust’ and make some funny ‘corrections’ Also, they ignore the undecideds!

            • weka 25.4.2.1.1.3

              “Harre can say what she likes but KDC calls the shots and she does what he wants”

              Back it up or it ain’t true.

              • Chooky

                +100 weka

                anyone who knows or has observed Laila Harre’s career would know she is her own woman and money is not her first concern! …so it is a meaningless smear attempt…Laila Harre has asked for remuneration as befits her experience both as a lawyer and a political activist… and a very effective politician

                ….I wonder if Puckish Rogue and Nadis and John Key are speaking from experience …and have a hidden sugar daddy or sugar mummy?….maybe they have hidden puppeteers who call the shots?…….eh Pucky?

        • tricledrown 25.4.2.2

          Poor PR Dodgy John Key NEW Zealands biggest benefit bludger Receiving $5 million in handouts a welfare cheque to save Merrill Lynch from the US government !
          PuppetKey ie pinokeyo

        • Paul 25.4.2.3

          Have you anything to say about the systematic poverty in New Zealand and how the National Party plans to deal with it?
          Or is your politics just about personalities and polls?

      • bad12 25.4.3

        nadis, email Slippery the PM and advise Him to use such a slur on Hone, make him up another one, just as ugly and abusive as the first you propose, for Annette Sykes,

        Demand He broadcast them on prime time,

        Watch the action that would then occur, InternetMana 5% off of the back of such abuse, easily…

        • nadis 25.4.3.1

          exactly – that why he’s gone quiet. I wasn’t advising him to do it, I was suggesting it would be fun to watch if he did.

        • nadis 25.4.3.2

          I’ve only ever emailed him once to say if the Govt further funds the Americas Cup challenge I’d never vote national again.

      • greywarbler 25.4.4

        @ nadis 2.22
        That’s all very snide. I thought you had wider vision than that.

        • nadis 25.4.4.1

          Isn’t it what most people are thinking? If you really think about who Key and Harre are talking to, it is their core constituencies. Harre doesnt care if 97% of voters think she is a hypocrite, Key doesn’t care if 52% of voters think he is rude. No core supporter of either party will be turned off by this wee tete a tete

          Not deliberately trying to be snide (though I have on several occasions been told it seems to come naturally).

          • bad12 25.4.4.1.1

            There’s a difference nadis, most of InternetMana support is ‘hard’, not likely to be able to be chiseled away from the party leading into the election,

            The total support for National, my pick despite the ‘polls’ tops out at 47%, i would suggest that at least 5–7% of that is ‘soft’ able to be swayed leading into the election,

            Not swayed i might add in a straight line from National to InternetMana, but, such ugly language from Slippery towards Lailla might move some of National’s ‘soft’ support across to Labour,(from where it obviously came)…

            • nadis 25.4.4.1.1.1

              I mostly agree with you except that voters wont go back to labour. Once they’ve left there there is no going back. Voters leaving National (which I don’t see this issue causing) would go to Winston First, not vote, or the conservatives. Can’t see any reason why Labour is attractive to someone who previously has left. Voters leaving IMP (which I don’t see this issue causing) would probably go to the Greens.

              IMP hard support – maybe 2-3% – possible to get 4 or 5% on a good campaign?

              The most critical thing in this election will be the overhang seats and this is where National has a huge advantage. They can potentially get 3 to 5 overhang seats depending on how the Maori party does. Whereas the left block will get nil overhang seats – even if Hone wins a seat he will do so with two or three percent which means no overhang seats. Overhang seats are way more valuable – to illustrate imagine a no overhang parliament with 59 right seats/61 left seats. Add in 3 overhang seats and you get 62/61. You guys should forget about adding the left block up to get to 50%. Three overhang seats with 0% of the party vote is worth nearly 2% to national.

              This is where our version of MMP is flawed – why should someone living in Epsom or Te Tai Tokerau or Ohariu have a vote that is worth more than you or me?

              • Clemgeopin

                “I mostly agree with you except that voters wont go back to labour. Once they’ve left there there is no going back’

                Not correct! I know from real examples both from Jim Bolger’s time and from after the first term Key government!

              • Leroy

                Nadis, As a political scientist you make a very valid point about the over hang seats – they could well be the key. However, you assertion they will favour National is wrong. The have historically favoured the left and if Hone wins and IMP get 3-4.5% of the vote, then the left will benefit from 1-3 overhang seats.

          • Puckish Rogue 25.4.4.1.2

            True but how many swing voters or undecideds might be put off by Keys attack on harre or KDCs Nuremburg rally?

            • McFlock 25.4.4.1.2.1

              haha you brought up Nuremburg because he’s German. You’re so smart. Not racist at all. /sarc

  26. ianmac 26

    All day yesterday I kept on visualising those Gaza pictures pointed to by Miravox in Open Mike.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2716749/Boy-killed-Israeli-airstrike-taken-mothers-bedside-final-farewell.html
    How do they survive and will those kids who live on be filled with love for the Israelis?

  27. Puckish Rogue 27

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11305409

    • At least some lefties can see the benefits
  28. Hayden 29

    Garth McVicar to stand for Conservatives: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11305416

    The trust’s spokeswoman Ruth Money said in a statement this afternoon: “Garth has made a bold personal decision to seek a Parliamentary seat with the Conservative Party for the 2014 election.

    “We’re very sorry to lose him. Garth has worked tirelessly over the past 13 or so years as an advocate for change to New Zealand’s offender-friendly legal system. He hopes to achieve more change through the political process.”

    Don’t worry, you’ll get him back.

    • Bearded Git 29.1

      Hopefully that will push their vote up to 4.8%

      • Clemgeopin 29.1.1

        I doubt it would reach that level even if they were to recruit Jesus Christ himself!

        • Puckish Rogue 29.1.1.1

          Hes committed to leading the labour party at least untill election night 😉

          • Clemgeopin 29.1.1.1.1

            Halleluiah!

            The judgement day is coming!
            And there will be a second and a third coming too.

            Repent my son, repent!

    • bad12 29.2

      Of interest but not quite on the topic you raise here, the Supreme Court has just given back to such organizations the right to be considered ”charitable”,

      GreenPeace i believe took the case to the courts in an effort to have their charitable status restored…

    • millsy 29.3

      The thought of Christine Rankin and Garth McVicar in cabinet should be motivation enough to get people down to the polls to vote.

  29. Clemgeopin 30

    Another very good interview of David Cunliffe on matters of FARM SALE, FOREIGN OWNERSHIP, WINSTON and IMP.

    Audio below:

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/listen-on-demand/audio/362343395-david-cunliffe–foreign-ownership-of-farmland

    • ScottGN 30.1

      It was a good interview though Smalley didn’t really press him very hard on anything much.

  30. SPC 31

    Re the unemployment figures – each region of the Labour party should state the local level.

    Half of the new jobs are coming into Christchurch where unemployment is now under 3% (but with a smaller population than earlier).

    Other regions will still be above 6% – and many now face the impact of falling dairy prices thus no prospect of any improvement under the policies of this government.

    • Blue 31.1

      “Other regions will still be above 6%” – No. From Stats NZ Southland 4.4%, Otago, 4.8%, Tasman, Marlb/Nelson 5.0%. That was for March so I imagine they will be lower still.

      • SPC 31.1.1

        Blue, sorry but yes applies in many regions. It is only a no for the South Island. And yes they are lower still in the June quarter (see Stats NZ Household survey tables).

        June 2014

        Northland 8.3%, Auckland 6.2%, Waikato 6.4%, Hawkes Bay East Coast 6.7%, Manawatu Wanganui 7%.

        Taranaki is 5.2 and Wellington 5.4%.

        Bay of Plenty is 5.6, but is a seasonal fall that happens each year – it rises in September and December quarters to its peak each year (anyone know why?) that is up to 2% higher than the June quarter figure.

  31. weka 32

    So, the Fuck John Key video…

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11305399

    This is very interesting. I think the giving Harre a hard time re the moral high ground is daft. It reminds me of when Harawira was first in parliament and wore causal clothes to work instead of a suit and tie, and got shit for that. Guess what powers that be? Democracy is for everyone, not just the people that look and talk like you. Young people at a rave chanting is normal. Using the word fuck is normal, esp to say ‘fuck you’ to someone else. What’s really scaring you is that someone in a political party is daring to do something that is outside the norm and lots of yoof are into it, and it’s on the internet for everyone to see and you can’t control it.

    I’m seriously curious what is so wrong with saying ‘fuck John Key’. It’s not hate speech, it’s just common language expression of wanting to get Key’s govt out.

    On the other hand, I am really glad that KDC is ineligble to stand for parliament. The whole celebrity bit makes me uncomfortable, and how many of the people in that crowd are going to go on to an indepth understanding of the politics of NZ, as opposed to chanting slogans because it is cool? Will the IP lead people to a better understanding, or lead them into a cult following?

    On the other, other hand, when I was young I’d have loved that video, and been into it even though my politics were yet to form much depth.

    btw, am pretty sure there is a cut in the middle of the video just before the chanting starts, which means we have no real idea of who initiated the chant. Could have been KDC or one of the organisers.

    • marty mars 32.1

      “I am really glad that KDC is ineligble to stand for parliament”

      Me too. I heard him at the roadshow last night and he was very good but I trust Hone, Annette, John and I trust Laila and Miriam – Kim would be last on my list. He says he created the Internet Party as a thank you to the public of nz for helping him after the raids – that’s cool but for me, as a hardened leftie, I want lefties in there. He is learning and growing and I’d say changing in many ways as you would if you hang around with the IMP crew and I really hope that all continues but once again I say that I’m pleased he can’t stand for Parliament.

    • Colonial Viper 32.2

      Demands for polite language are usually made by the privileged and the powerful who don’t like to be reminded how disliked they actually are.

      • ScottGN 32.2.1

        Exactly. It seems to me that while the political classes are tut-tutting over disrespect shown to the PM the IMP will be getting exactly the kind of exposure to the potential voters they are hoping to recruit.

      • Chooky 32.2.2

        +100…good on the students!… New Zealand youth have been fucked over …lets face it!

        …and crippling student loans and interest when so young ( unless your parents are rich and can afford to put you through university) …is knee- capping the most talented and the future of New Zealand…creating an education class divide

        …it is time students and youth got out and demonstrated against this John Key Nact government!

        • phillip ure 32.2.2.1

          @ chook..

          ..or yr parents have ‘arranged their affairs’..into trusts and the like..

          ..so that often the richest are scamming a full student allowance..

          ..don’t get me wrong..i want free education for all..

          ..but that is just another example of how the richest fuck the rest of us over..

          ..in so so many ways..

          ..and those students should be invited to keys’ helensville meeting..

          ..they could mass outside…chanting..

          • Chooky 32.2.2.1.1

            yes all true …and a good idea

          • Chooky 32.2.2.1.2

            @ PU .. actually I dont think Helensville is a good idea for students to demonstrate at on reflection!…they could get caught up and into trouble on other issues…let Laila Harre and Penny Bright handle John Key and Helensville without any distractions from John Key’s performance

            … I think it would be better if students concerned with education marched and demonstrated from their universities to the middle of their university town centres

            1.)….that way they would get much bigger crowds and support from the general public and teachers…as well as media focus on their special youth issues

            2.) they would be focussed on what matters most ….their education and their futures ( and showing how NACT have undermined their education and let them down badly)

            3.) it would show New Zealand that their issue for youth rights and equality of opportunity is separate and special…and demanding of attention from ALL political parties

            4.) it would be multi- political party in its reach and participation

            • Chooky 32.2.2.1.2.1

              Lets face it John Key and NACT and the Right wing spinners will make trouble if they can before the Election to swing voters away from legitimate concerns.

              People are going to have to be very careful about how they demonstrate so it does NOT backfire and become a law and order or security issue

              This Election ….there are high stakes …and some on the Right Wing will swing this Election whatever way they can..Here is just a taste of it .

              ‘ Faux outrage at “F**k John Key’ clip’

              By Martyn Bradbury / August 7, 2014

              “Oh here comes the faux outrage over a bunch of rowdy students chanting ‘Fuck John Key’…..

              • bad12

                This i find a total mind blast, the biggest hoot to hit politics in one hell of a lot of years, these youngsters, the demographic most unlikely to cast a vote, have obviously found, in DotCom, a political vehicle and who among us over the past nearly 6 years hasn’t snarled at the Tee Vee or radio exactly that, ”Fuck John Key”, or words to that effect,(c’mon fess up),

                Hell 2 days ago i was describing DotCom as a shy bloke at heart, suggested He should alter the message and did He what?,

                Seriously, i don’t think that all that hall packed with young people are going to vote InternetMana on September 20, but, a significant number will,

                From my perspective, being in the Mana camp of the InternetMana alliance those votes are still a vote for Mana, the sheer quixotic nature of this campaign, and remember, the fun has only just begun, has my interest piqued, so much so that i can’t wait to get out on the streets with the campaign,

                What’s getting me is this huge divide, from a hugely divided New Zealand, of differing demographics turning out in support of InternetMana,

                In Waiariki, the biggest political turnout in a decade was there when the ‘roadshow’ hit town, if you can move the locals up there in Roto-Vegas you can move em anywhere,

                And so He does, this big fella, along with the crew,the roadshow, Lailla,Hone,Annette,Callum, the local candidates, here in Whanga-nui-a-Tara my thought was this is good, this might get quite big,

                In the space of 3 days it got just that, Big, when a hall full of young people react like that at a political event you know its happening, with their social media habits 10’s of 1000’s who were not at the event will be partying all night Friday night and up and down New Zealand in places unimaginable they will bring the house down with that chant,

                Here’s quixotic for you, listening to Jim Mora on my wireless this afternoon commenting on the Nelson leg of the ‘roadshow’, the local ‘bridge club’, i kid you not, according to Mora, interrupted proceedings to attend the roadshow, the local ‘bridge club’, i am if you will excuse me, in fucking awe,

                i have been commenting ”i have a sniff of 5% for InternetMana in September”, another commenter, today yesterday?, sees 7%, it aint impossible, anything can happen here,

                The fun has just begun, this has been a message from the future, you all know the rest, be there….

                • Good one bad – loving the enthusiasm. Nelson had over 200 people which was double what cunliffe and craig got to their events. The energy was electric and the crowd was eclectic – only bummer for me – no Hone.

                  4 members and 5% will do me – time to say fuck john key and fuck inequality and fuck those who don’t like the message.

      • Clemgeopin 32.2.3

        In any case I doubt if the students were meaning it ‘literally’.

        • Chooky 32.2.3.1

          ..no I am sure not…but spinners will put a fascist anti semite spin on anything if they can…and distract from the real issues

    • just saying 32.3

      Hi Weka,
      My immediate reaction was similar. I thought good. Let’s say it how it is and fuck the ‘life’s sweet for me’ hypocrits and the desperate and frightened wannabes who keep ramping up the overdraught to keep reality at bay for as long as they can keep the illusion going. Why should we pretend and protect the comfort zone of the pampered middle? Things are shit for a whole lot of people and the only view is down the barrel of even deeper shit. That’s just how it is.

      This whole psychology-of-voting-habits-and-manipulating-public-opinion thing exemplified by likes of Polity has been ruinous to the left. Two decades of advice from the marketeers about how we should present ourselves in order to get elected and it boils down to kow-tow to your betters and everyone will like you more. So we give in and we simper and we smile. And we get more and more shafted but we still keep taking the advice. Even though the result is the opposite of what we want we keep going because we’re told that it will be even worse if we don’t.

    • felix 32.4

      “I’m seriously curious what is so wrong with saying ‘fuck John Key’. It’s not hate speech, it’s just common language expression of wanting to get Key’s govt out.”

      Key’s popularity is the only thing National has got going for them. They’re shit scared of this sort of sentiment being expressed in public.

      There’s nothing more to it, and no rationale for their suddenly very strong feelings about “hate-speech” will be offered.

      As the late great Lenny Bruce said, “If you can’t say fuck, you can’t say fuck the government”.

  32. ianmac 33

    Heard on the Panel that after talking about Key and the wrongness of his “Sugar Daddy” remarks that the woman (Katherine?) said that a new name for Key is going the rounds:
    “Smuggins.” Very apt I thought.

  33. Paul 34

    What are the National Parties policies to deal with systemic poverty in this country? Your leader seems a bit unwilling to debate, so I thought you’d be happy to explain the policies for us.
    Are you willing/ able to discuss the actual issues ?
    Or are you planning to focus on diversions, polls and personalities for the next month?

  34. Colonial Viper 35

    I did not know Dave Hereora RIP at 57.

    But his death notice here on The Standard, along with the mention of Parekura Horomia RIP at 63, clearly illustrates to me the section of society which would be most harmed by Labour raising the retirement age to 67.

    • ScottGN 35.1

      Actually I think it underlines the poor health outcomes for Maori generally and their shortened life expectancy.

      • Chooky 35.1.1

        ..another very good reason for Labour keeping the retirement age as low as possible and as simple as possible ie blanket universal coverage without bureaucratic hoops to jump ( eg ..I think i might die in 6 months so i deserve it NOW!…gimme , gimme …who is going to go begging for it?…no they will just vote for the political party that gives them the best deal without having to beg for it!…Labour BEWARE!)

  35. Clemgeopin 38

    BREAKING NEWS: Next month’s news today!

    Like SEMOUR of ACT in Epsom, DUNNE of UF too has LOST in Ohariu!

    Watch this election result news here!

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Nationals-Brett-Hudson-takes-Ohariu-worm-poll/tabid/817/articleID/355941/Default.aspx

    • Clemgeopin 38.1

      Hudson=(Nasty Nats)=37.2%

      Dunne=(Unliked UF)=26.7%

      Andersen(Lovable Labour)=24.4%

      Woodley=(Goodness Greens)=11.6%

      Personally I would have liked Virginia Andersen to win, but seems it would probably be just wishful thinking in reality as the Nats are obviously either very strong here or may be the voters of various hues have already made up their minds to gazump Dunne and kick him out by voting for Nat’s Hudson!

      So, the BEST strategy for Labour and the Greens and any other anti National/anti Dunne party (IMP, NZF etc) under the circumstances is to STRATEGICALLY give their party vote to their own preferred party, but to give their ELECTORATE vote to NATIONAL’s HUDSON to be more sure of defeating the discredited Dunne and hence prevent National and Key being able to form the next destructive nasty RW government once again! That is my considered opinion anyway.

      What do you guys think?

      • bad12 38.1.1

        Lolz Clem, i do not want to be disparaging of the Labour crew, but, they think they are going to ‘win’ Ohariu,

        i have tried befor here at the Standard to convince everyone that to get rid of Dunne noses will have to be held and electorate votes cast for the National candidate in Ohariu,

        i am thinking of doing a little advertising in Ohariu myself, along the lines of ‘retire Dunne’ and ‘i do not even support National, but, given the choice of Dunne or Hudson, lets vote for Hudson’…

        • Tracey 38.1.1.1

          PLUS ONE

          • The Al1en 38.1.1.1.1

            Dunne won’t bring more mps in with him should he win, so net result voting Dunne or Hudson equals Nat +1.
            Much better to campaign for Anderson electorate votes off the opposition parties in the hope of getting a net nat -1

  36. Murray Olsen 39

    What’s happened to the reply buttons? I was unable to reply to some right winger who was supporting Key in calling Laila Harré a bought woman. I would have said that Key goes to Bilderberg parties as an anal service slut, so just as well the buttons were missing.

    Apart from the jerkoffs on Whalespew and a couple of their kin here, I don’t think many people will appreciate Key calling Laila a woman of negotiable virtue. I hope it costs NAct votes.

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    Last week, English Prime Minister Boris Johnson boldly declared that he would rather die be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit. Unfortunately for him, the UK parliament accepted the challenge, and promptly dug one for him. The "rebellion bill" requires him to ask for and secure yet another temporary ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Warning! Warning! Danger Jacinda Ardern! Danger Marama Davidson! Warning!
    Lost In Political Space: The most important takeaway from this latest Labour sexual assault scandal, which (if I may paraphrase Nixon’s White House counsel’s, John Dean’s, infamous description of Watergate) is “growing like a cancer” on the premiership, is the Labour Party organisation’s extraordinary professional paralysis in the face of ...
    1 week ago
  • Union solidarity with Ihumatao land occupation
    by Daphna Whitmore Every Sunday for the past two months unionists from First Union, with supporters from other unions, have set out to the Ihumatao land protest, put up gazebos and gas barbeques, and cooked food for a few hundred locals and supporters who have come from across the country. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: The wrong kind of trees?
    Newsroom today has an excellent, in-depth article on pine trees as carbon sinks. The TL;DR is that pine is really good at soaking up carbon, but people prefer far-less efficient native forests instead. Which is understandable, but there's two problems: firstly, we've pissed about so long on this problem that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • No freedom of speech in Turkey
    Canan Kaftancioglu is a Turkish politician and member of the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP). Like most modern politicians, she tweets, and uses the platform to criticise the Turkish government. She has criticised them over the death of a 14-year-old boy who was hit by a tear gas grenade during ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speaker: Tadhg Stopford: Why I’m standing for the ADHB
    Hi there, just call me Tim.We face tough problems, and I’d like to help, because there are solutions.An Auckand District Health Board member has nominated me for as a candidate for the ADHB, because her MS-related pain and fatigue is reduced with hemp products from Rotorua.  Nothing else helped her. If I ...
    1 week ago
  • Good little vassals
    The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security has published their report on whether the SIS and GCSB had any complicity in American torture. And its damning. The pull quote is this:The Inquiry found both agencies, but to a much greater degree, the NZSIS, received many intelligence reports obtained from detainees who, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Who Shall We Turn To When God, And Uncle Sam, Cease To Defend New Zealand?
    Bewhiskered Cassandra? Professor Hugh White’s chilling suggestion, advanced to select collections of academic, military and diplomatic Kiwi experts over the course of the past week, is that the assumptions upon which Australia and New Zealand have built their foreign affairs and defence policies for practically their entire histories – are ...
    1 week ago
  • The Politics of Opposition
    For most of the time I was a British MP, my party was out of government – these were the Thatcher years, when it was hard for anyone else to get a look-in. As a front-bencher and shadow minister, I became familiar with the strategies required in a parliamentary democracy ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • More expert comments on the Canadian fluoride-IQ paper
    The Green et al (2019) fluoride/IQ is certainly controversial – as would be expected from its subject (see If at first you don’t succeed . . . statistical manipulation might help and Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear). Anti-fluoride campaigners have been actively promoting it ...
    1 week ago
  • The return to guerrilla war in Colombia
    by Gearóid Ó Loingsigh On August 29th a video in which veteran FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) commander Iván Márquez announced that they had taken up arms again was released. There was no delay in the reaction to it, from longtime Liberal Party figure and former president Uribe, for ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Air New Zealand identifies this enormous plot of unused land as possible second airport site
    Air New Zealand couldn’t believe its luck that this seemingly ideal piece of real estate had so far gone entirely unnoticed. Air New Zealand’s search for a site to build a second Auckland Airport may have made a breakthrough this afternoon, after employees scanning Google satellite imagery spotted a huge, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Redline on the Labour Party
    No-one on the anti-capitalist left in this country today puts forward a case that Labour is on the side of the working class.  There are certainly people who call themselves ‘socialist’ who do, but they are essentially liberals with vested interests in Labourism – often for career reasons. Nevertheless, there ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • New Fisk
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Labour’s failure
    When National was in government and fucking over the poor for the benefit of the rich, foodbanks were a growth industry. And now Labour is in charge, nothing has changed: A huge demand for emergency food parcels means the Auckland City Mission is struggling to prepare for the impending arrival ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Ardern attempts to vaccinate Clarke Gayford live on television to prove that it’s safe
    Gayford, pictured here on The Project, before things got wildly out of control. A bold public relations move by the Government to encourage parents to vaccinate their children has gone horribly wrong. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern appeared on tonight’s episode of Three’s The Project, where the plan was for her ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Has Mr. Whippy gone too far by parking on our front lawns?
    Mr. Whippy’s business model has driven it down a dark road of intimidation. Residents in major centres around the country are becoming disgruntled by the increasingly aggressive actions of purported ice cream company Mr. Whippy, who have taken to parking on people’s front lawns and doorsteps in a desperate attempt ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Cleaning up the water
    Today the government released its Action Plan for Healthy Waterways, aimed at cleaning up our lakes and rivers. Its actually quite good. There will be protection for wetlands, better standards for swimming spots, a requirement for continuous improvement, and better standards for wastewater and stormwater. But most importantly, there's a ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Fronting up
    Today I appeared before the Environment Committee to give an oral submission on the Zero Carbon Bill. Over 1,500 people have asked to appear in person, so they've divided into subcommittees and are off touring the country, giving people a five minute slot each. The other submitters were a mixed ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear
    Anti-fluoride activists have some wealthy backers – they are erecting billboards misrepresenting the Canadian study on many New Zealand cities – and local authorities are ordering their removal because of their scaremongering. Many New Zealanders ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Democracy – I Don’t Think So
    So, those who “know best” have again done their worst. While constantly claiming to be the guardians of democracy and the constitution, and respecters of the 2016 referendum result, diehard Remainers (who have never brought themselves to believe that their advice could have been rejected) have striven might and main ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago
  • Government says it will now build just one really nice home
    Following publication of this article, the Ministry has requested it to be noted that this supplied image is not necessarily representative of what the final house will look like, and it “probably won’t be that nice.” As part of today’s long-anticipated reset of the Government’s flagship KiwiBuild policy, Housing Minister ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Imperialism and your cup of coffee
    Over the next week or two we will be running three synopses of parts of the opening chapter of John Smith’s Imperialism in the 21st Century (New York, Monthly Review Press, 2016).  The synopsis and commentary below is written by Phil Duncan. Marx began Capital not with a sweeping historical ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Still juking the stats
    The State Services Commission and Ombudsman have released another batch of OIA statistics, covering the last six months. Request volumes are up, and the core public service is generally handling them within the legal timeframe, though this may be because they've learned to extend rather than just ignore things. And ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Hard News: Time for a New Deal: 25 years on
    In 1994, I was editing an ambitious street mag called Planet, from a fabled office at at 309 Karangahape Road. The thirteenth issue of the magazine was published in the winter of that year and its cover embodied a particularly ambitious goal: the end of cannabis prohibition.I wanted to do ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Not impressed
    KiwiBuild was one of the Ardern government's core policies. The government would end the housing crisis and make housing affordable again by building 100,000 new homes. Of course, it didn't work out like that: targets weren't met, the houses they did build were in the wrong place, and the whole ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Solar beats coal
    As the climate crisis escalates, it is now obvious that we need to radically decarbonise our economy. The good news is that its looking easy and profitable for the energy sector. Wind is already cheaper than fossil fuels, and now solar is too:The levellised cost of solar PV has fallen ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago

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