Open mike 07/09/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:41 am, September 7th, 2014 - 271 comments
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openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

271 comments on “Open mike 07/09/2014”

  1. Tautoko Viper 1

    Is the media going to be complicit in the coverup of corruption in NZ Politics?

    • probably..

      ..so it would seem..

    • yeshe 1.2

      it would seem so, doesn’t it ? No Ben Bradlee to be found … just sickening. Wonder what WD will make of it?

      At least it proves what we all know.

      • Anne 1.2.1

        If they don’t intend to release Rawshark’s final dump… why would the MSM go to the trouble and expense of fighting Slater’s injunction? Doesn’t make sense. Can someone explain it to me. Genuine question.

        • brian 1.2.1.1

          Are they playing it very safe, and publishing no more until after the Wednesday hearing? (Finding best possible spin for the NZ Herald and Fairfax for the delay)
          I was looking forward to analysing the new information today 🙁

          • miravox 1.2.1.1.1

            Karol linked to some of (what I presume) is the final dump yesterday

            Open mike 06/09/2014

            • Anne 1.2.1.1.1.1

              Thanks for that miravox. I was one of those affected by the nationwide outage yesterday so missed it.

              Jose Pagani – a doyen of the Left according to the right wing media who know it all of course. Not only is she an associate of the despicable whale boil but even socialises with him – and Lusk? Oh, does that not confirm what many of us have suspected for a long time.? She’s a traitor and I am happy to say it here because I would most certainly say it to her face if given the opportunity.

              Now we know why she has spent the past 12 to 18 months at least on Q&A, The Panel, ZB Radio – to name a few – dissing Labour at every turn.

              I would like to know if she is still a member of the Labour Party (suspect not) because it would be lovely to see her sent packing. No more could she claim to be a spokesperson for Labour or the Left in general. That should ensure she loses her cushy little number being paid to diss Labour on the telly, radio and in print.

              • greywarbler

                @Anne
                +1
                Further if Labour don’t make a fuss about the people who are being called on by media to supposedly give the left/Labour view and are actually giving a mistaken, but more likely deliberate lies and malign misinformation, then we know the quality of the ‘left’ running Labour.

                That would mean that the rubbish being spread actually does represent the leading opinion of Labour. And that is a possibility as the broadcasting of lies has continued over so many months, years.
                edited

              • Once Was Tim

                +100
                Pagani … the Clayton’s social democrat – the social democrat when you’re not having a social democrat – the one that likes it all in theory right up until the time it affects them personally and involves the slightest of inconvenience. Could some ‘in-depth’; ‘investigative’; wonder-boy/girl jonolist ask her some time WHAT Labour policies she actually agrees with? While you’re at it – ask her what little tipple she enjoys (I know Chardonnay is so passe these days, and her being the expert on everything and all these days, I’m curious about how I can hob-knob with the movers and shakers and become a high class whore – apparently the lifestyle is guaranteed). Btw, Oik Williams isn’t that far behind either – but then (like a few of them), he’s older and has bragging rights to having ‘paid his dues’; done this/done that …. pffffffffft.
                What’s the difference between Josie Pagani and Mike Williams?
                – Williams has an extra word in his vocab (‘tend’) ….. as in:
                “I agree with you Matthew” .v. “I tend to agree with you Matthew”

                • Anne

                  I don’t put Mike Williams in the same category Once Was Tim. He is on good terms with many people on the Right and that is fair enough. But he is tribal Labour and he never disses them on the air-waves. Over-all I think he is a good ambassador for Labour and he is respected within and beyond the Party.

                  On the other hand Josie is a media social climber. She likes to be with the in-crowd. She thought Slater and company were the in-crowd and she wanted to be loved by them. What’s the bet when Slater recently said quote “Labour people talk to him too” unquote, that he was pretty much referring to the two J Paganis.

                  • Fran

                    Not only is she giving “useful advice” to Labour she is giving many the benefit of her dubious wisdom. I heard Josie Pagani on Radio NZ, yes on the dreadful panel, a while ago where she said the most awfully racist things but seemed to think it was alright because she knows some Maori people who she felt sure would agree with her. I have switched of radio or TV when she is on ever since. There is no place for someone like her in our media.

        • Paul 1.2.1.2

          Maybe getting more detailed legal advice?

          • Tigger 1.2.1.2.1

            Complicit. Stop whining about freedom, press. It’s insincere. You are here for us but you work with them.

          • Ant 1.2.1.2.2

            Isn’t Keys tax cut announcements tomorrow? They probably want to be nice and considerate and not spoil it for him so the campaign can be about things that matter like policy, not these dirty attack politics from the left.

            • Tracey 1.2.1.2.2.1

              Tax cut?!? You mean lolly scramble and bribe, surely that will be the headlines?

              • Hanswurst

                Perhaps they want to be really nice and release it on the same day as he announces it, so that all the questioning will be focussed on that issue, rather than the tax announcement, and Key has no time to learn his lines. One can always dream…

        • yeshe 1.2.1.3

          @Anne: My last hope is that they have the full years of Slater’s emails — was it twelve ? And they need to find the real stories out of the soggy mess, that are safe for them to publish. Dumpster diving and coming up defamation free. My final hope.

          It took Nicky Hager many months to work through and produce a legally-safe book and he had only 8gb of sludge.

          But the united silence from the three Rawshark legacy holders … this is chilling.

        • Chris 1.2.1.4

          Media see any kind of muzzle an affront to ideas of press freedom in democratic society and so on, and view this as completely different issue to questions of when / what to publish.

    • David H 1.3

      They already are.

  2. there are two reasons to watch the replay of the nation this morn..(or online..)

    reason one is seeing parker hang english out to dry..

    ..i think it is parkers’ best performance to date..

    ..and you will also get to see english have his trainwreck-moment..

    ..where he admits that he has no ‘new ideas’ for the economy..

    ..according to bill..this is as good as it gets..

    ..we are already at our destination..

    ..the other reason to watch is to see gowers’ worst interview ever..

    ..the victims of this crime against journalism are harre/harawira..and the viewers..

    ..he spends 12 mins trying out some wedge-politics..

    ..over cannabis-policies..

    ..sneering his way thru this ‘controversial’-subject..

    ..a subject so ‘controversial’ that recent polling showed over 80% of nz’ers want prohibition ended..

    ..they only differ on what form this should take..

    ..(does gower even know this fact..?..and if so..w.t.f. was his performance all about..?)

    ..and the final comment from harawira sums up this waste of time/energy for all concerned better than i could..

    ..save to say it is gowers’..worst..ever..!

    ..and a must-watch for just that reason..

    ..and the fact that the city of berkeley has just voted to supply free medical-marijuana to low-income patients..

    ..only goes to show what a reactionary backwater we are on this subject..

    • crocodill 2.1

      Reason #1 not to watch The Nation: Your day will be that much more happy.

      Free new idea for English and Economy: Sorry to hear you were stuck. Have you tried doing the opposite? Will make no difference to your life, so why care? Go on have some fun!

      • David H 2.1.1

        Your day might be, Troll. But the rest of us really enjoyed seeing Parker turn English into a mop, and wipe the floor with him.

    • Hanswurst 2.2

      It’s amazing how much better a debate informs when it has no crowds brought in to cheer either side and no crowd-stroking fool in the government corner.

  3. Sans Cle 3

    Remember the important things in a representative democracy on polling day. Ask your family and friends whether it is worth their time voting! …..It is! But take a look here first:

    View post on imgur.com

    • weka 3.1

      Excellent.

      I like today’s OM pic too: Keep calm and vote left.

      Bugger the polls, this election will be won on getting out the vote.

  4. (this is a recommended-read i found earlier on..a disturbing read..but these are ‘disturbing’-times..)

    “..Chomsky: U.S. Plunges the Cradle of Civilization into Disaster.

    While Its Oil-Based Empire Destroys the Earth’s Climate..

    .Humanity has the effect of an immense asteroid hitting the planet..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.alternet.org/world/chomsky-americas-obsession-destroys-earths-climate

  5. kenny 5

    Do you trust John Key?

    I don’t.

    Do you trust National?

    I don’t.

  6. crocodill 6

    Jam Watch update:

    Reduced to Clear “Just Jam”. Fantastic colour, almost radioactive brightness, good taste, and as always, startlingly cheap. Added sugar around 62% of total jam weight. Fruit source uncertain, carbon footprint unnoted, child labour laws unknown, but the price did I mention the price? One tenth of Barker’s exclusive extra-careful health-revitalising Jam. You be the judge: Expensive difficult life, or cheap fun death.

    • i’ve switched to peanut butter topped with mashed banana..

      ..that works as a form of jam-methadone..

      ..it will get you thru the difficult first ten days..

  7. b waghorn 7

    I think decriminalize weed , hammer dealers hard, I have also woudered what effect on crime becoming a cashless society would have I doubt you can run a eftpos at a tinny house.

    • @ waghorn..

      why not just go with the colorado-model..?

      ..of a licensed/regulated/tax-paying cannabis-regime..?

      ..surely that is the tidiest option..?

      ..or..if you wanted to create employment and drive the blackmarket down..

      ..you could do what has been done in uruguay..

      ..where the state employs growers/retailers etc..the whole food-chain..

      ..and funds it all by selling pot at a state-mandated $2 per gram..

      ..(‘$2 per gram’..eh..?..whoar..!..)

      ..and of course people are also given the option of growing their own..

    • greywarbler 7.2

      @ b waghorn
      Your point about cashless society interesting.
      Could be the cause of individuals holding up small business, post shops for till cash! And WINZ paying basic costs for some with only a little spending money would reduce ability to accumulate cash to match the asking price for marijuana, alcohol etc.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.3

      I think going cashless is a great idea. It would pretty much kill crime based around money especially tax avoidance. It has a number of other advantages as well (Guest post submitted).

      • Rich 7.3.1

        It’s a lousy idea for anyone who does not wish to be tracked on their spending.

        • Colonial Viper 7.3.1.1

          It also makes communities extremely susceptible to technological failures/outages, network privatisation, political interference and incredibly enables the security and surveillance state apparatus.

          Draco – why do you continue down the track of fragilising core systems and exposing us to 24/7 surveillance. If we have nothing to hide we should have nothing to fear?

          • Draco T Bastard 7.3.1.1.1

            It also makes communities extremely susceptible to technological failures/outages,

            You may not have noticed but society is already dependent upon technology and that it fails every now and then.

            why do you continue down the track of fragilising core systems and exposing us to 24/7 surveillance.

            Why do you continue to ask loaded questions?

            It’s really not that fragile and we can do things to prevent surveillance.

            • greywarbler 7.3.1.1.1.1

              @Draco T Bastard
              People who are idealists and who don’t make allowances for failures, human mendaciousness and who trust in perfect systems are people who are flawed as are their ideas. I distrust such ideas, ultimately naive – being a realist is better than being an idealist.

        • Molly 7.3.1.2

          … that can be partly offset by local currency, bartering, exchange or giving away goods and services….

        • Draco T Bastard 7.3.1.3

          Not having spending tracked is how we prevent ourselves becoming sustainable.

          And, besides, pretty much all spending is tracked anyway – by the banks.

          • karol 7.3.1.3.1

            Not if we use cash.

            • Draco T Bastard 7.3.1.3.1.1

              Cash use is declining. Already some two thirds of transactions are electronic.

              • Rich

                I can only be tracked by cash for when I took it out of the bank and when I put it into the bank, and even that cannot be taken for granted. I cannot be tracked buying a packet of cornflakes at the supermarket if I pay cash and don’t use a loyalty card (and don’t take my smartphone with me, as large businesses, and some small ones, are starting to utilise tracking technology eg. http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jan/13/what-is-apple-ibeacon-retail-tracking).

                You seem to be very blase about this. Normally I find those that say that I shouldn’t worry about this are the ones who don’t have to worry about this (well yet anyway).

                • Draco T Bastard

                  I cannot be tracked buying a packet of cornflakes at the supermarket if I pay cash and don’t use a loyalty card

                  Don’t kid yourself:

                  Pam Dixon, executive director of the World Privacy Forum, says that although most of the focus in the media has been on how companies are tracking us through Internet browsers and smart phones, there is actually more danger of invasions of privacy occurring in physical retail outlets, mostly because consumers are unaware of the extent to which they are being tracked. “This is an entire business model that has sprung up that I think maybe three people in the entire country know about outside the industry,” she says.

                  And I do think that such tracking needs to be illegal. Security videos yes, tracking no.

                  You seem to be very blase about this.

                  But I’m not. What I am serious about though is fixing our economy and that requires that the resources we use be accurately tracked.

                  • Rich

                    I linked to the iBeacon technology in my post so I’m aware that supermarkets and other retail businesses track you, but to do that they need you to have a smartphone.

                    Only the large businesses at the moment are going to be able to utilise face recognition technology or maybe have a trigger based on a certain combination of product that you purchase, so that’s not a huge concern for me. I know that most businesses are not tracking me as long as I use cash, and sometimes (but not very often) as long as I don’t have my phone on me.

                    You suggest that we need technology so that you can run a society more efficiently. Well that is the current business model , and it’s much more fascist than democratic. It is not to the citizen’s advantage to have such monitoring, under no circumstances.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      I linked to the iBeacon technology in my post so I’m aware that supermarkets and other retail businesses track you, but to do that they need you to have a smartphone.

                      And I linked to an article that mentioned the ability of retail stores to track you using their in store security cameras.

                      Only the large businesses at the moment are going to be able to utilise face recognition technology

                      List of 50+ Face Detection / Recognition APIs, libraries, and software
                      Through in a local programmer looking for work and fairly quickly even small stores can be using face recognition to boost their sales.

                      You suggest that we need technology so that you can run a society more efficiently.

                      And we do.

                      Well that is the current business model , and it’s much more fascist than democratic.

                      Only because we allow the private companies to collect the data without informing us about what collected and also allow them to use that data to manipulate us through marketing strategies.

                      It is not to the citizen’s advantage to have such monitoring, under no circumstances.

                      That is a belief and one that happens to be wrong. We really do need to know what resources we have and how they’re used. If we don’t then we cannot become sustainable.

                    • Rich

                      For some reason I cannot reply to your post, so I’ll leave it here.

                      Your imaginary world does not exist, so you’re effectively enabling the one that does exist.

                      You’re wrong in my opinion (see what I did there).

  8. Dialey 8

    Good article by Rod Oram in today’s Sunday Star Times, ends with call for full Royal Commission – but I guess he’s just another left wing conspiracy theorist!

    • Bearded Git 9.1

      Brilliant Tautoko-thanks for that. Will change my vote to support that man with the fetchingly thinning hair.

      But wait-I’ve already voted Green!

      • Tigger 9.1.1

        +1,000,000

        “I don’t care if he’s a demon wearing the stretched skin of orphans, at the end of the day – at the end of the day, he looks like a prime minister, and I will vote for him,” says Petra.

    • Saarbo 9.2

      I just wish this was satire…these are actually real responses from kiwi’s voting for the Nats, people I have spoken too…I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

    • yeshe 9.3

      loved it ! ( and if you are into felines and their perfections, check out his work here … very fine and funny!)

      http://www.cakeburger.com/comic/cat-physics/

  9. karol 10

    Some of these people have no shame – driven by desire for power and wealth, to be achieved by any means. When exposed in all their disgusting (lack of) glory, they lie low for a while, then come back, trying again to play for the big stakes.

    Return of Wewege.

    A chapter of Nicky Hager’s Dirty Politics book rejuvenated discussion of cloak-and-dagger tactics used to reveal Brown’s affair with Bevan Chuang.

    Dirty Politics suggested numerous people had advance knowledge of Brown’s affair, or actively plotted to shame him into resigning.

    Despite Chuang’s allegations of a calculated smear campaign against Brown, Wewege insisted Chuang, xenophobia and jealous members of the Young Nats had undermined him. “I’ve been vilified and really pulled through the mud because I’ve passed on information,” he said.

  10. “hard to ‘blame’ the school..really .(moral-panic: sub-thread..)
    it’s about a rebellious teenager acting out/seeking attention”

    Open mike 05/09/2014

    Open mike 05/09/2014

    “The football coach who allowed a teenage girl to strip to her underwear on a busy street says he “completely and utterly” blames himself.”

    “This is a lovely bunch of girls … they’re the ones that are suffering,” he said. “There is some serious hurt going on for a simple, silly prank that should never have happened if I had done my job properly.”
    one student – understood to be aged 16 – stripped to her underwear, fishnet stockings, a dog collar and chains around her wrists while holding up a sign saying “toot 4 strip” on busy Fenton St.
    Another student was told to run through a Pak ‘n Save supermarket in a bikini.

    It is understood that some of the girls involved have been bullied badly online by their peers. A relative of the girl who stripped said she was “in a very fragile position”.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11320268

    • weka 11.1

      That article doesn’t really say what involvement the coach had. Was he there when it happened, part of the setting up of the initiation? Looks like the school took appropriate action (sacked the coach).

      • The Al1en 11.1.1

        “Stephen, with two other adults, was supervising the girls from elite St Cuthbert’s College’s first XI team during Rotorua’s Winter Tournament.”

        Doesn’t really matter who initiated, as supervisor, it was all on his watch, he’s fully culpable, not the children in his charge.
        Would it have happened if you were boss? I wager not.

        • Paul 11.1.1.1

          2 weeks out from an election and this is headline news.
          What a joke.

        • weka 11.1.1.2

          Yes, I agree about the responsibility but if he was actually part of the initiation, as opposed to knowing something was going to happen but not knowing what it was or being there, then that is way worse.

          • phillip ure 11.1.1.2.1

            stuff is reporting the students saying the coach was in the supermarket when it happened..

            ..didn’t know it was going to happen..

            ..and stopped it as soon as he saw what was happening..

          • The Al1en 11.1.1.2.2

            I reckon the big ‘toot to strip’ signboard was a bit of a clue as to what was happening.

            To be dismissed as rebellious teenager acting out/seeking attention is a shocker.

            • Colonial Viper 11.1.1.2.2.1

              The coach is bears significant responsiblity and is also a very easy scapegoat for the elite school and the parents of those children. It avoids any discussion of the culture at the school, how long these sports team “initiations” have been going on for, what is the role of peer pressure from the other girls, and if any other sports teams at the school have/had traditions like this.

              Also, if it were a decile 1 school with brown teenage girls publicly stripping and exhibiting similarly in dog collar and chains, there would be calls for investigations into parents, parental beneficiary status and CYF interventions.

              But because it is mainly white, wealthy, privileged families involved the discussion is –> well, not as bad as a Miley Cyrus video.

              • weka

                +1. I’d be interested to know the cultural stuff as well.

                • Colonial Viper

                  where these teenage girls were exposed to stripping/bondage/discipline material is also a question an outfit like CYF might want to ask. I saw a tweet from an AKL based journalism expert implying that the girls may have been picked it up from parents or friends of parents. What is that about. Why were 2 adult female and 1 male supervisor encouraging this. What are they part of?

                  Lots of questions are conveniently ignored by scapegoating a contract sports coach who is indeed culpable, but just one part of the puzzle.

                  • weka

                    Depends what you mean by ‘pick up from’. Care to link to the tweet so we can see the context?

                    How is the coach being scapegoated? I thought he was being held accountable for his own actions.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      The coach is being held accountable yes, and correctly so. What about the two women supervisors. What has been said about them. Nothing. Any confirmation that they are not teachers or other employees of the school?

                      I’ll try and find the tweet, but searching on Twitter even a day or two back is an absolute pain…tips anyone.

                    • weka

                      I asked about the women above. I wondered if they were parents, in which case the MSM would be treading more carefully perhaps. If they were parents, then the issues are somewhat different than someone whose job is to ensure care and safety. It’s possible that the school has taken actions that we don’t know about because of the reporting.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      If they were parents, then the issues are somewhat different than someone whose job is to ensure care and safety.

                      Agree. Although adults in a role where they are supervising their own and other children have clear legal responsibilities to ensure “care and safety” as well. If they were parents (mothers) encouraging their daughter’s friend to strip in public in chains and a dog collar, that raises different questions.

                      Again, if this was a less privileged group, the media, CYF, police would be treating this quite differently IMO.

                    • Tracey

                      He has been sacked but can not be sanctioned by auckland football or secondary school council. Perhaps that makes it a good reason to take it to the media, so those hiring him in the future do so with knowledge.

                      There is a code of conduct but they cant uphold it…

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Ahhhh the beauty of unregulated private sector contractors. You know what, I would be very interested in how he was hired in the first place eg contacts at the school etc.

              • Murray Olsen

                The country would be a better place if Kings and St Cuths were closed down. In the 70s a lot of weird stuff went on, especially with boarders, and I’d bet a lot of it still does.

    • Given that the only real harm in this episode was suffered by a school that is essentially a training ground for fascists, there’s really not much to care about.

      • The Al1en 11.2.1

        So the rights of children and young women in particular to be protected, doesn’t matter in this case because they all come from a toff school 🙄

        That’s a nugget position to take, and even worse than pu’s high jinks claim.

        • Paul 11.2.1.1

          Of course they count.
          It is just not the most important news at the moment.
          Party policies on Child poverty might be more worthy.

        • Tom Jackson 11.2.1.2

          We’re talking about teenagers here. Children in a legal sense, but not a factual sense. If there is evidence that this girl was bullied or hazed into doing it, then that’s a matter for the police. If not, then the episode was tamer than a Miley Cyrus video.

          • weka 11.2.1.2.1

            A male, paid coach, in a position of responsibility, watches at least one of the teenage girls in his care do sex work on the side of the road, probably under peer pressure, and you think this is a non-issue?

            There are several issues going on here. One is the initiation aspect, whereby 16 yr olds are expected to do something sexually exhibitionist in public to strangers. The other is the position of responsibility that the adults are in. I think there is also something seriously wrong with an adult male watching a 16 yr old school girl strip in public. All sorts of boundary issues going on there.

            “We’re talking about teenagers here. Children in a legal sense, but not a factual sense”

            Out of curiosity, at what age would it become unacceptable? 14? 12? 10?

            • Tom Jackson 11.2.1.2.1.1

              Nice slippery slope argument. The girl in this case is old enough to have sex and calling this “sex work” is ridiculous, factually incorrect and hyperbolic.

              I didn’t say that I thought it was a good thing. I just think you lot have no sense of proportion. Yes, it was a dumb thing for her to do, and the coach should have been fired, but do we need to go on and on about it? Doing so is a bit pervy IMHO.

              If you cared at all about the the girl at the centre of it, you’d drop the issue, but let me guess, you want to blame this on “rape culture”. If you want to minimise harm, you should let the parents and school deal with it. The papers are just looking for clicks on the “rich girl stripper headlines”. Don’t read them.

              • all i’ve read is the stuff report on the girls saying the coach didn’t know/wasn’t there/stopped it when he saw it..

                ..so i dunno where the truth lies..

                ..that ‘allen’ seems to have read/watched everything..

                .and is an enthusiastic-supporter of actual/physical emasculation for the coach..?

                ..and volunteering to do it himself..

                ..what an interesting grab-bag of ‘standards’..

                • “all i’ve read is the stuff report on the girls saying the coach didn’t know/wasn’t there/stopped it when he saw it..”

                  Open mike 07/09/2014

                  “..so i dunno where the truth lies..”

                  Hidden behind your misogyny perhaps?

                  “that ‘allen’ seems to have read/watched everything..”

                  30 seconds on google to sh!t all over your “all I’ve read” crap.

                  “and is an enthusiastic-supporter of actual/physical emasculation for the coach..?”

                  Yes it’s true, I’d kick the pea from his whistle if it were my daughter involved. Imagine it was someone who smoked your best buds and the outrage would be comparable.

                  “..what an interesting grab-bag of ‘standards’..”

                  Irony lol on my side of the ether.

              • weka

                I probably agree about the media (although unlike you I haven’t been reading it), but I’m not responding to that, I’m responding to your minimisation of the situation. There are reasons that people in positions of responsibility, esp where there are gender and sexuality issues involved, as supposed to have boundaries. You have no way of knowing which girls in that group were vulnerable, yet you are willing to say that the whole thing was stupid but safe. The point is that, the rules are there to protect the people that you can’t see.

              • “I didn’t say that I thought it was a good thing.”

                But you did write “Given that the only real harm in this episode was suffered by a school that is essentially a training ground for fascists, there’s really not much to care about.”

                “but do we need to go on and on about it? Doing so is a bit pervy IMHO.”

                Right, so criticism of those adults in charge and those who dismiss it as teen attention seeking is pervy, but the actual acts involved go uncriticised. Kin ‘el.

                • Tracey

                  Yup. Ignoring it will stop it happening to others.

                  When I was 15 i was selected for an U19 auckland football team. I was VERY self conscious and had very low body self image. I also wanted to play. Those who assume she must have been genuinely consenting, in a legal and psycholigical sense, could be wrong.

            • Rich 11.2.1.2.1.2

              Although I agree with you, I also have to note Tom Jackson’s point – that it was tamer than a Miley Cyrus video. <<< so maybe the problem starts there.

          • Tracey 11.2.1.2.2

            Why not children in a factual sense, cos they have breasts and menstruate? 16 might think it is an adult but it has an under developed part of the brain regarding consequences, this is why we put adults in charge.

      • anker 11.2.2

        Tom Jackson @ 11.2……………The is a despicable comment. I am 100% sure this young woman will be very damaged by it. A 16 year old girl! Her mental health will be suffering and she may well not recover. She is at great risk. And I am making this call as someone who has a professional background in the area.

        So we no longer care about young people because they happen to have parents with money who (stupidly) send her to a private school (who initially said the young woman let the school down)………….

        Imagine if that was your daughter……………………If it was my daughter I would be distraught…………….and very angry.

        I find the whole episode deeply disturbing on so many levels, but I expect better from men who post on the Standard. Shame on you.

        • Colonial Viper 11.2.2.1

          why would you be so surprised and shocked at your own daughter’s behaviour.

          • Tracey 11.2.2.1.1

            Are you saying you believe 16 year olds are adults? Physically, psychologically, brain development?

            • Colonial Viper 11.2.2.1.1.1

              Certainly not. The premise I was responding to was:

              Imagine if that was your daughter……………………If it was my daughter I would be distraught…………….and very angry.

              And I am saying that that behaviour in the Rotorua main street is not likely to be that girl’s first go at attention seeking horseplay.

          • anker 11.2.2.1.2

            Because I would hope to have instilled values in her about respecting herself and her body. Most important to do for young woman, surely you would agree?

            Anyway, I didn’t say I would be surprized and shocked, I said distraught. I am entitled to my own feelings surely. Or as a man would you prefer to dictate how I should feel about this incident.

            • Colonial Viper 11.2.2.1.2.1

              You can feel any way you wish about which ever daughter you are picturing in your mind; furthermore raise your children to whatever standards and morals you feel appropriate.

        • McFlock 11.2.2.2

          Meh. The mental health comment says more about your own foibles than the incident in question, IMO.

          I’m more concerned about the general use of hazing and “initiation” practises as a cheap way of team bonding, more than the particulars of the act that hit the media. Such practises tend to escalate over time until hospitals are involved.

          • anker 11.2.2.2.1

            Actually McFlook not my own foibles my professional opinion.

            • McFlock 11.2.2.2.1.1

              your professional opinion is to provide a 100% certainty of at least temporary (and possibly unrecoverable) mental trauma in a specific individual, based solely on media reports?

              that seems rather… odd

              • Murray Olsen

                +1
                We seldom learn enough from MSM reports to construct a reasonable view of anything. Doesn’t stop some people.

  11. cogito 12

    http://www.3news.co.nz/politics/labour-candidate-makes-more-shylock-comments-2014090707

    IMO Shylock is a great description. Another good one would be Fagin.

    Gibson is right – Labour are being “too respectful” to National.

    And it is not a question of being anti-Semitic… Christ threw money changers out of the Temple and had absolutely no time for them.

    • BM 12.1

      Vote positive.

      • anker 12.1.1

        glad to see you are finally accepting the truth BM…………so who are you voting for. Labour, Green or IMP? Great to see we have converted you.

    • karol 12.2

      Both those terms have anti-Semitic overtones. I would not be for using either of them as derogatory terms.

    • just saying 12.3

      I don’t like the ‘Shylock’ comments, but agree with the idea that Labour are being too respectful to National.
      Obsequious is the word I’d use and it’s sickening to see.

      What they appear to be signalling is that there will be no major changes under Labour, beyond being a bit nicer. The middle class can go ahead with the kitchen refurbishment at the five-bedroom three-bathroom “bach” at Wanaka, and planning the next overseas hols, without a care in the world.

      Thanks David, that’s what I joined your freaking party to vote for you to the lead the party for.

      • weka 12.3.1

        Do you mean how they are campaigning (as opposed to their actual policy)?

        • just saying 12.3.1.1

          I find the campaigning obseqious and their policies provide minimal change to the status quo.

      • Jenk 12.3.2

        If you’ve joined the Party, Just Saying, you’ve got access to all the policy and surely even you who appears to be a bit dim-sighted, must see there are major differences between the Nats and the Labour Party of today – as consistently stated by David
        Cunliffe. Labour is staying (or trying to) respectful of ALL political parties, not just the Nats – as a deliberate ploy – not to get down, down to the dirty level of the Nats.
        Whether it works or not – remains to be seen but it is NOT obsequious or ar–licking or fawning – its a clearly thought-out strategy to campaign along with clearly thought-out policies.

        • weka 12.3.2.1

          I agree that there are significant differences between Labour and National policy, and it doesn’t serve the left to pretend that they are the same, but I think js is saying that Labour still aren’t far enough left to make a difference. Which I would probably agree with. Myself, I think Labour should stick with the ground it covers now, and more people will vote GP/IMP who can then pull us left again. Narratives that Labour are not going to make a difference will mean less people vote and that gifts the election to National, or leaves us with weak left wing govt.

          But then I’m not a Labour party member being disappointed either.

      • Rich 12.3.3

        I don’t think there are any middle class with a 5 bedroom ‘bach’ (it would be a crib anyway) at Wanaka. Wanaka is not exactly the cheapest place in NZ to buy a house.

    • weka 12.4

      “When asked if people should vote for him, Mr Cunliffe said “we are campaigning hard for the party vote”.

      With voting having already started, Labour would have no chance of replacing Mr Gibson if they wanted to.

      Mr Gibson now faces disciplinary action from the party after the election, media reports suggest.

      Can Labour not expel the man from the party either now or, god forbid he gets elected, after the election?

      It seems odd that Labour has at least 2 MPs not towing the party line and actively undermining their campaign.

      • Tracey 12.4.1

        What about colin craigs guy, has colin had the balls to dump him off their list… Struggling to keep a leash on his own people let alone natsi

    • there are many pungent-terms that could be used to accurately describe these thieving bastards..

      ..descending to anti-semitic triggers/sniggers..

      ..shows a distinct lack of linguistic-imagination on the part of the user..

  12. karol 14

    In Sunday Star Times today, pA4: Conservative Party attack website has closed. The site was for candidate Steve Taylor and was threatening to break court suppression orders and name names.

    The website posted a lawyers children’s photos on the site, and called the lawyer same pretty sexist names because of the clients she represents. How contradictory can you get with respect to the children the children!?

  13. karol 15

    P A10 of Sunday star Times: an article by Adam Dudding – about to read – but it’s apparently based on an interview with Hooton telling how the VRWC attack blogs started.

  14. weka 16

    Anyone see something the other day about an ACT supporter fiddling the TVNZ online poll vote after the leader’s debate so that Whyte appeared to win? Howls of outrage from the right like they did with the billboards?

  15. joe90 17

    Lying sack of blubber.

    John Drinnan ‏@Zagzigger

    @NickDale ..and 2 per cent of whale readers are from the French speaking Caribbean island on Martinique – ad industry not fussed, it seems

    Nick Dale ‏@NickDale 9h

    @Zagzigger 2% of 2M supposed pageviews is 40,000! If we generously give each user an av of 3 pages, 3% of Martinique logged in last month

    h/t DeepRed over at PA

    • ianmac 17.1

      About 2 weeks ago Kim Dotcom published his analysis of Whaleoil visits. He said the stats showed that only 42% could be genuine visits to the site. The rest had overseas entry but no identifiable country of origin. Someone might remember reading that and find the original post from Kim. Something to do with bots. Average time of visits 3 seconds. All I can remember.
      Anyway Slater’s purpose in inflating his numbers would be to attract advertising I suppose.

      • dv 17.1.1

        Yes and the other interesting stat was that a large percentage were safari based. A mac browser about 80%

        http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/08/17/are-whaleoils-traffic-stats-a-bloated-illusion/#!prettyPhoto/0/

        • Melb 17.1.1.1

          Reposted from Reddit:

          Long time listener, first time caller…..

          I’m a bit of a data person…I’ve had a look at this.

          I’ve always been surprised at the popularity of WOBH. Especially in relation to blogs I visit, but I guess that goes for Pinterest as well. Despite the profile of WOBH its well down my list of blogs I visit.

          I just had a look at those same the site meter numbers. I’ve not looked at this in depth but…from the Who’s On link we can get more granular information. If you click through you can see some of this in more detail.

          http://www.sitemeter.com/?a=stats&s=s10whaleoil&r=15%5B1%5D

          Unknown IP addresses:

          The ‘unknown’ IP addresses are actually known but are legacy IP address space, held by ISPs such as TelecomNZ and VodafoneNZ.

          I looked at most recent stats, so I can’t link to the specific ones I looked at as the sample shows most recent (and thus is changing).[1]

          descr: Telecom New Zealand Ltd country: NZ

          netname: VODAFONE-AP descr: Vodafone New Zealand

          Browser Type:

          Browsers say different things about who they are – Safari 1.3 means more than Safari 1.3.

          Such as

          Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 5.1) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/35.0.1916.153 Safari/537.36

          or:

          Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_9_4) AppleWebKit/537.78.2 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/7.0.6 Safari/537.78.2

          So it can include Chrome, mobile browsers and Mozilla.

          Looking at the country – it seems most are from NZ or unknown (85%) which would include Telecom and Vodafone.

          http://www.sitemeter.com/?a=stats&s=s10whaleoil&r=83%5B2%5D

          [1] – You can check this by going doing a whois on the IP address. At the command line in Mac or Linux type in whois then the IP address (say whois 192.168.1.1). The site meter stats obsfucate the last octet, so replace it with one of the 254 available…so 192.168.1.# becomes 192.168.1.1)…or use a web tool.

          http://tools.whois.net/whoisbyip/%5B3%5D

      • David H 17.1.2

        I have the graphic that he put up. But how to put it up here?

  16. Jenk 18

    Thanks for the tips re what’s in today’s SST – going down to the dairy now to buy one for
    our Sunday reading !

  17. Ted Blaikie 19

    The hacker Rawshark ( or Whaledump) states in his tweets that all Cam Slater’s hacked emails were passed onto the media before he was closed down. If these emails provide evidence that Jason Eade (John Key’s “Black Opps” maestro) was supplying SIS or GCSB sourced information to others for political purposes, as has been suggested, the Media have a obvious responsibility to release this evidence proir to the election.

    Alternatively they have a responsibility to state clearly that the hacked emails provide no evidence of this type of illegal activity.

    Failure of the media to carry out their democratic function, as outlined above, will make them also complicit in political corruption.

  18. yeshe 20

    I am so disturbed and disappointed this morning, and clearly we have no Ben Bradlee in our fourth estate. Cowards, and owned. Bet there are some fights going on with journalists who want to publish and the ‘owned’ editors who will not.

    And the proof of their cowardice … here we are in the injunction:

    PLEASE RAWSHARK .. HELP !

    • blue leopard 20.1

      Check out The Daily Blog

      • blue leopard 20.1.1

        …that is weird, an earlier comment where I provided a link to the article has gone into moderation, so that is why I haven’t provided a link – in case it was adding the address that caused the problem.

  19. Rich 21

    On yesterday’s Open Mike I put up a comment about John Key and Merrill Lynch, and in passing mentioned that he was a director for 3 years in the late 90s of the UK Merrill Lynch. That elicited denials and an attempt to play his directorship down by a few commentators to this blog. They attempted to say that it was just a small associated company. But this is not the case. So in the interests of continuing the discomfort for them (I know not why that is) I again put this on Open Mike.

    John Key director of a company that used to be called Merrill Lynch International Bank Limited (the name has been changed) but note the Company Registration number – 1062001

    https://www.check-business.co.uk/business/01062001/bofaml-investments/

    http://companycheck.co.uk/director/905371938

    Now a letter from the UK Merrill Lynch to the International Swaps and Derivatives in 2000 (the year that John Key resigned as Director). Note the UK company registration on the letter, once again 1062001.

    http://www.isda.org/protocol/pdf/mlibl.pdf

    Apparently this could be conspiratorial. I have no idea why.

    • yeshe 21.1

      Hopefully with an address in Ropemaker Place, we will discover they made enough to hang themselves, Key included.

      Conspiratorial ? Ha ha ha. Then let’s have a Conspiracy of Truth.

      Key lied. Key is lying. And best we be very aware and conscious of what he did.

      If Key is cleaned out in the election, there is nothing to stop him destroying our currency once again, and reap hundreds of millions, just as he did then — and worse, he will 100% sabotage any new government with it. This is an avaricious and arrogant man without ethics, integrity or conscience.

      And how well it is hidden.

      • David H 21.1.1

        But this time he is not squeaky clean, and a wave of bad publicity of him, to the company that hires him shouldhopefully shut him down. Just like Cactus Kate got the boot from the Jeeves Group over her shenanigans that were revealed in the book. And now there is mad deletings going on in Whale slime and her web (Hate) site is gone completely.

      • Rich 21.1.2

        I’m wondering more about his address at Devereux Lane, currently occupied by Alexander Myachin. Previously occupied by a Swedish banker. Is it a company house?

    • Colonial Viper 21.2

      Rich: great work

    • Chooky 21.3

      @ Rich ….this looks very interesting!….can someone summarise and explain this all in plain English?….for the financial and share market illiterate

      …what are the implications?

  20. tc 22

    And across the ditch a fairfax rag, the age, had a PR piece entitled ‘jk is our malcolm turnbull’ just to remind expats what a great guy they should all be happy to have.

    its not for the weak of stomach esepcially the tory fan club accolades.

  21. GRiM 23

    Bit Angry, posted the following on herald opinion “Rodney Hide: ‘Sideshow’ fuels wildest poll race” piece as posting stopped on the Armstrong piece yesterday and my much politer comment did not appear.

    “The Odgers email is a National smokescreen, narrow inquiry focused on a specific claim supplied by one of their own, to avoid an inquiry into much worst allegations which are backed by proof, compliant media how about reporting on the whaledump data supplied to NZherald? or Catherine Michelle Odgers recent dismissal in relation not only to Dirty politics but also to international money laundering scandals, how many shell companies did she setup for Lana Zamba? Maybe one of the herald could google the name?

    Anyone noticed the Whaleoil campaign style?
    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/
    how about some investigate journalism, oh that’s right this is the herald.”

  22. Q & a was boring..boring..boring..

    ..a total snooze-fest..

    ..avoid..!

  23. Rodel 25

    Sad to hear Wayne Brittenden , explaining on RNZ- Counterpoint this morning, that in the USA election, Nixon won a landslide victory even after he was confirmed as corrupt .
    I think that the same will happen here in NZ.

    Nixon didn’t last long because of pressure from the media and the judiciary but they are too timid here.

    • cogito 25.1

      Three more years of dirty politics, lies and corruption coming up, courtesy of kiwi voters. Doesn’t get much worse.

      There is still time….

  24. karol 26

    Radio NZ has a fact checking page for the elections:

    Latest:

    Last week John Key said: “This month 80 New Zealanders left for Australia… I know their names…”

    Then in The Press debate this week he said under Labour 35,000 people had left for Australia each year.

    “Now they are down to 80 a month.”
    […]
    Mr Key is correct if was talking about all migrants, including people who are not NZ citizens or residents, moving both ways across the Tasman. Using those figures the net loss was 79.

    And does Mr Key know their names?

    “Well the names was a joke yeah. I took it you had a sense of humour but if you don’t let me know,” Mr Key replied.

    And over the year to the end of July the net loss to Australia was 7,300 at an average of 608 a month.

    There’s a load more checked facts on the page.

    • ianmac 26.1

      Thanks Karol. A very interesting read. Most of the errors are John Key’s. Funny that MSM are not trumpeting these mistakes nearly as loudly as they do David C’s. I expect Key minimises his own but maximises those stupid incompetent Lefts. And the MSM accepts it.

  25. Not a PS Staffer 27

    Scotland Independence latest YouGov Poll

    YES 51%

    No 49%

    Celebrations the night before NZ Election…after taking down all the hoardings of course.

    Meltdown in Westminster has commenced. Sadly the Labour party over there has lost its support base in Scotland because it became a Tories poodle.

    “Rupert Murdoch, the boss of News Corp, said they would be seen as a “black eye” for the British establishment. He said the poll would “shock Britain” and reveal that “everything [is] up for grabs”.

    “Scottish independence means huge black eye for whole political establishment, especially Cameron and Miliband” he tweeted. ”

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/06/scots-radical-new-deal-save-the-union

    • Rich 27.1

      Well the fact that Rupert Murdoch likes it might actually give the Scots pause to think. It would me if I lived there.

      • Not a PS Staffer 27.1.1

        I understand your sentiment, Rich. I added his quote to highlight the degrees of shock that is reverberating through Westminster, and the power elite, after the recent polls.

        The YES polls have been closing the gap on the NO lead inexorably for the past months. The London establishment (Tories & Labour) assumed they would win with a bit of bullying and fear mongering. Every action they took had an immediate negative effect. It has been comical to watch.

        This is the greatest shake up in the politics of that island since 1945. The consequences for all the political leaders and parties in England and Scotland will be far reaching. Their Constitution is effectively being dissolved. They will have to move the Westminster elections out by at least a year as the next Westminster Parliament cannot have Scottish MPs.

  26. David H 28

    Hooton so pleased to get a mention. Read what they say about him got him dead right. Even if the writer was tongue in cheek the description was apt.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/10465414/The-secret-diary-of-the-party-leaders

  27. Rich 29

    This is an interesting database, set up by journalists from all parts of the world who have had enough of the super-rich not paying tax. There are lots of New Zealanders in this database;

    http://offshoreleaks.icij.org

    • yeshe 29.1

      thanks Rich.

      Have you explored the SCF and guarantee scheme in any depth I wonder, as in who benefitted the most, and other night-time tales ?

  28. veutoviper 30

    I found this blog and post via the #whaledump Twitter account – a very thoughtful and insightful view on what Rawshark/Whaledump accomplished.

    http://t.co/dJMIW3Bq56

    The blog – The Shinbone Star – also has a number of other recent posts which are also worth reading IMO.

    • yeshe 30.1

      What an elegant analysis and requiem for our hero ! thx vv for posting.

      “The release rate was perfect, a slow exposition of the wires behind the rising flight of the right in the past few years.”

      🙂 thanks again, Rawshark.

      • yeshe 30.1.1

        and I like shinbonestar ! Exquisite, from Aug 19:

        “Key’s leap towards Slater as safe ground from GCSB and SIS questions seems about as sensible as jumping ship from the Titanic to land on the Costa Concordia.”

        http://shinbonestar.org/2014/08/19/first-as-tragedy

        • veutoviper 30.1.1.1

          I had not noticed that post – so thanks.

          Although the writer appears to have only come to NZ recently (presumably from the UK), his posts are very perceptive imho, and I have now bookmarked his blog for regular viewing.

          • yeshe 30.1.1.1.1

            snap!

            • Dutton Peabody 30.1.1.1.1.1

              Thank you both for your kind words!

              I’m a Pom, and have made the most of a few weeks awaiting employment – just got lucky I moved out here the week before Dirty Politics came out. Will try and maintain a regular post rate now I’m gainfully employed once more.

              Bloody foreigners, coming over here stealing Kiwi jobs!

              Thanks again,

              Dutton

              • yeshe

                Welcome, Dutton … so enjoyable, keep it coming please. Amazing how insightful you are as a freshly minted Kiwi.

                Enjoy being here … 😀

                (Excuse my question — are you named via Liberty Vallance, or is it your true name ?)

              • Clemgeopin

                You write well. You should take up journalism if you aren’t in that profession already.

              • veutoviper

                Thank for coming to TS. As I said, I found your site from a link on the #whaledump twitter feed – and am very impressed at your insight for someone new to NZ into what is a massive ‘situation’ we find ourselves (and NZ) in at present.

                IMO your insight also carries with it the lack of longterm baggage that those of us who have been here a long time carry.

                Again, welcome – to NZ and to TS.

                • Thanks, find The Standard good reading for triangulation – while I don’t have the baggage, there are times when I’m having to do a lot of background research into stuff. However, political science and such is pretty much the same game all over, like union – depends on how well you play it!

                  MMP is fascinating, and this election is staggeringly interesting. The fact we may have all this incident and yet almost zero change with regards to Government is just, well, odd. But not entirely unexpected.

                  Will occasionally pop up here, but have to balance work and blogging on shinbone now!

                  Thanks again everyone, you know where I am on twitter if you fancy a chat.

  29. Weepus beard 31

    Really disappointed that nothing has been published so far on the supposed Ede/Slater emails which, if they exist, are the ones would link the 9th floor to WhaleOil.

    Perhaps the story is so big that it’s taking a while to write.

    Perhaps timing is important at the right time is not today.

    Or, perhaps there’s nothing in the emails at all.

  30. Marcus 32

    I hope ‘the media’ included Scoop and Gordon Campbell.

    Surely if no Ede emails there, Hager wouldn’t have published his book.

    • Weepus beard 32.1

      Good point. I haven’t read the book. Were the Ede emails in there? If not then that may mean they were never collected.

      • Marcus 32.1.1

        Just two quick examples from the book..
        ch 9 “I asked research to start compiling the list this morning” Ede to Slater about collecting info re Labour leadership election
        ch 11 “If youre not so keen on this I might give it a rejig and push elsewhere” Ede to Slater about their ‘tricky DC’ campaign

      • veutoviper 32.1.2

        I have the book, but have only read small bits so far due to other commitments. But the book also has a index at the end and includes a large number of references under “Ede, Jason”. I had a quick skim of these, and it is apparent that Hager has seen and refers to many emails and other communications between Ede and Slater – as well as referring to many between Ede and Farrar. So presumably these comms exist, but who now has them …..

        IMO these are the crucial ones. It has crossed my mind that sending dumps to Fairfax, the Herald and TV3 is in fact a test (or even maybe a set-up) to see what their response would be. It may be that other journalists have also received dumps (including those sent to these three) but we are not aware of this and they are sitting quiet for the present. This could include overseas media. Rawshark strikes me as far from naive.

  31. greywarbler 33

    On Radionz Wallace Chapman this morning had a panel of young politicians talking about issues. On alcohol and age rise from 18 the point was made by a number that it wasn’t young people who were the problem, it was a nation wide problem, prohibition isn’t the answer education is. Etc etc.

    Then on midday news the report of drunken or drugged or both mob of about 300 in Hamilton attacking the fire service, the police, the authorities trying to bring about controlled behaviour.

    Youth have to come up with better ideas than just ignoring the way that alcohol degenerates the lives of so many young people, their self control, their morality, their civility, and if not brought under control empties their purses, and sets them on a diminished life. This will result, if they become heavy drinkers or clinical alcoholics, in their maintaining their life by living the lie that there is nothing wrong with them. Because they can’t face up to themselves as being similar to a cardboard image with no substance, often drawing their life support by sucking up help from the loyalty of their family while denying them the opportunity of the energy to make their own successful life, with no good role model to look to.

    Another news item this morning – foetal alcohol syndrome is serious problem and not being adequately funded and dealt with in NZ. Refusal again to deal to the problem in a way that is practical with good outcomes.

    • crocodill 33.1

      “Youth have to come up with better ideas than just ignoring the way that alcohol degenerates the lives of so many young people, their self control…”

      I agree, at least I think so, if what you’re saying is that “education” is completely ineffective when dealing with why and how people use drugs. The strange circle of logic is that in “coming-up” with alternatives, as far as I can see, you can’t reach alternatives by sitting down talking about it and saying “Just say no” or “know your limits”. The causes are slow/fast, local/global, personal/cultural, psychological/physical… they keep shifting and sliding and what works for one doesn’t work for another. It is literally a dynamic system we’re dealing with and standard yes/no politics is the least useful tool. Take “self-control” for example: I have not seen any evidence to assume that self control is a learned trait. In fact in my experience it appears almost like a talent – you either have it or you don’t and if you don’t that isn’t necessarily a bad thing because alternative traits arrange themselves to make you a person for a different purpose. It’s a really difficult job. Just like the issue of poverty, the solutions to these tenacious problems of humanity more or less involve a complete rethink about the way “we” live, because only in giving up some of our most cherished ideas about how life is will we free ourselves (and maybe only then to a small degree) from avoidable substance abuse.

      • Puddleglum 33.1.1

        Take “self-control” for example: I have not seen any evidence to assume that self control is a learned trait. In fact in my experience it appears almost like a talent – you either have it or you don’t …

        The most recent and robust study on self-control (regulation of emotions, behaviour, etc.) is by Moffitt et al. (2011).

        Here’s a presentation from Richie Poulton who was involved in the Dunedin Study that has followed about 1,000 people since they were born in the early 1970s and was a co-author on the Moffitt et al. (2011) paper.

        You’ll notice that in the last few slides he discusses the advantages (for society) of interventions to improve self-control at different ages. Clearly, he believes (presumably based on the literature) that self-control can be improved no matter how much (or little) one has of it.

        In other words, like just about every other human trait self-control is a developmental outcome rather than something we are just born with. A large part of that developmental process occurs in the post-natal social environment.

        In fact, as Eric Keverne (2004, p.1355 ) makes clear, the learning of social rules and, ultimately, the outcomes for adult well-being can depend on the nature of early social environments:

        The synergy between early brain development and the learning of social rules is also likely to be compromised when the developing infant–mother relationship is compromised early in life. Certainly, mother–infant separations in monkeys are known to have long-term consequences (Hinde et al. 1978) and extreme consequences for infant abuse when infants are separated from their mother and reared with peers (Harlow & Harlow 1965; Kraemer & Ebhert 1991). However, provided we are able to recognize developmental problems and provided they are not too traumatic, the plasticity of the developing brain may provide for remedial action. Humans tend to worry about the uterine environment and toxic agents or
        drugs, which may damage the fingers and toes of babies, but perhaps we should pay more attention to the postpartum period when the social environment exercises its effects on the developing brain and lays down the foundations
        for future well-being
        .

    • Chooky 33.2

      +100 greywarbler re your reference to Wallace Chapman: …Wallace Chapman is a probably the most politically stimulating of Radionz these days…and a MUST LISTEN listen for anyone on the Left or interested in politics

      …the crucial youth vote and young politicians were the focus today:

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/20148672/jacqueline-smart-on-youth-vote

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/20148525/insight-for-7-september-2014-sparking-the-youth-vote

      …but also very stimulating was Wayne Brittenden on Nixon ( shades of what is going on in New Zealand at the moment) and Media Watch on ‘Dirty Politics’:

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday/audio/20148681/wayne-brittenden's-counterpoint-watergate,-40-years-on

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/20148670/mediawatch-for-7-september-2014

      ( as regards your comments on youth and alcohol: …well alcohol and other substances have always been experimented with by youth…often with problematic behaviours…imo where it becomes long term abuse is where there are other problems going on causing it…youth have it pretty tough these days …no excuse for irresponsible behaviour but some understanding )

      • greywarbler 33.2.1

        You are right Chooky about alcohol youth and understanding. The point now is that we have a lot of understanding acquired over the years as to the seriousness of availability of alcohol and its use in binge drinking and so on. There has to be an end to the sort of understanding that complacently allows young people to indulge to the extent they do.
        Some firmness of resolve is needed.

        We could go back to the idea that only restaurants can serve alcohol to teenagers, and it must be with meals. Go back to the idea that we would learn a more European drinking style, which we have, but deter the hedonistic careless and irresponsible behaviour that has become accepted with binge style drinking that is not self-controlled or civilised.

  32. greywarbler 34

    My comment is marked for moderation. And I am unable to edit it because of that. (So I was advised but my change went through so…)

    • blue leopard 34.1

      I had a comment go into moderation for no apparent reason too, GW. I had an internet address in it, did yours? I was wondering if that is what caused it.

  33. greywarbler 35

    Hi blue l.
    No links. Can’t think why moderation. I used the word foetal, perhaps it’s triggered ‘Unknown Word, Beware’ alert. It will be interesting to see if this goes into mod. I’ll make an immediate note if it does, as part of our analysis of the problem!

  34. greywarbler 36

    No moderation message!

    Just add – son is saying something odd on internet very long ping times,. Mean anything?

    • weka 36.1

      There is a long standing bug whereby some comments drop into moderation/spam randomly. You won’t get a message about that. Admin will release the comment when they look to see if there are any there.

    • Rich 36.2

      A slow internet? Telecom/Spark’s 3/4g network has been down for a few days, apparently due to some downloading of naked celebrities. Maybe it’s a little more widespread than that.

  35. Morrissey 37

    Peter Jackson “hates bullies”? Really?
    Radio NZ National, 7 September 2014

    Wallace Chapman this morning had a fairly interesting interview with “West Memphis Three” member Damien Echols and his wife Lorri Davis. Echols was recently released after more than eighteen years on Death Row. It’s an interesting story, with a Kiwi connection: “Sir” Peter Jackson and his wife Fran Walsh somehow got wind of the story, and campaigned on his behalf. They even made a documentary about the case.

    It’s understandable that Echols and Lorri Davis would see Jackson and Walsh as heroic figures. And it would be churlish to deny that the great director and his wife were anything other than admirable in the way they supported the West Memphis Three.

    New Zealanders, however, will remember just how whiny, simpering and pathetic Peter Jackson was during the furore that broke out four years ago when his employers (Warner Bros.) decided that they would try, in collaboration with John Key’s government, to smash the Kiwi film industry workers who dared to ask for decent wages and conditions during the production of his god-awful Hobbit movie.

    Wallace Chapman should have set the record straight—after the interview was concluded, at least. He failed to do so, however, so I sent him the following reminder….

    Peter Jackson “hates bullies”? Really?

    Dear Wallace,

    Your interviewees Damien Echols and Lorri Davis were full of praise for Peter Jackson, and quoted him as saying he “hates bullies”.

    That will come as news to anyone who, in 2010, witnessed the hapless Jackson reluctantly parroting the brutal anti-union rhetoric of his Warner Brothers paymasters, and watched him squirming uncomfortably, in a fretful silence, as Philippa Boyens and Fran Walsh did all the talking during an infamous Q+A appearance.

    Damien Echols and Lorri Davis cannot be blamed for being ignorant of their hero’s less than heroic behaviour in his own country, but you were surely aware of his (albeit unwilling) involvement in the outrageous bullying of New Zealand film industry workers by the unholy combination of Warner Bros. and the National-ACT government.

    I am concerned that you did not see fit to at least say something after the interview, in case some people thought Jackson was a man of principle, rather than someone who is attracted by bizarre stories of wrongful imprisonment.

    Yours sincerely,

    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

    • Halcyon 37.1

      At least the films were made here in NZ and created jobs for the duration of the filming. Surely that is better than having the films made overseas. I think I am worth twice what my boss pays me. He doesn’t and thinks I am currently overpaid. He can easily find more workers to do the job. Therefore I continue to work for him especially as I can not find another job that pays better.

      • Tracey 37.1.1

        Kind of slavery with some coin

      • Morrissey 37.1.2

        Surely that is better than having the films made overseas.
        Ten interesting New Zealand movies could have been made for less than the $160 million the government granted Warner Bros. for that Hobbit yawner.

        I think I am worth twice what my boss pays me. He doesn’t and thinks I am currently overpaid.
        You need to join a union. That way you’re more likely to get something closer to what you deserve. Your attempted quip about being worth twice as much as you get paid is nothing more than an (unfunny) attempt to diminish the seriousness of the issue.

        • Halcyon 37.1.2.1

          And how do we evaluate what someone should be paid. A union tries to maximise the wage rate while trying to ensure that the company can afford to pay it. This is always the tension with our current wage system. If the labour content is too high and the company can not cover costs it closes. Then the worker is out of work. I would rather have a job than be on a benefit.

          • Colonial Viper 37.1.2.1.1

            Just have worker representatives on the board of directors to help make the right decisions. For large corporates, they are extracting far too much income in favour of shareholders instead of workers.

    • RedBaronCV 37.2

      Usually referred to sarcastically by a lot of people I know as “Saint Peter” everytime the paper sticks him on the front page. ( every few weeks). Reason is the number of people who have 1 degree of separation from someone who, in their opinion, has has had an unedifying experience somewhere nearby.

  36. Bill 38

    And with just 11 days to go, the polls have the ‘Yes’ vote ahead of the ‘No’ vote for the first time. Scottish independence just around the corner?

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/scottish-independence-poll-puts-yes-in-lead-1-3533686

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/06/scots-radical-new-deal-save-the-union

  37. yeshe 39

    Big black submarine fish sneaking round in our waters, nuclear probably … thx Mr Key.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11320202

    • Anne 39.1

      University of Auckland political scientist Associate Professor Stephen Hoadley said the secret entry of foreign naval ships into New Zealand waters would be “outrageous” if true. “If that’s happening, someone should blow the whistle on this and make sure we’re all aware of what’s happening.”

      I would give plenty of credence to any suspicion that Key has given the US a covert nod and a wink to them entering NZ waters – just for marine research purposes of course.

    • Draco T Bastard 39.2

      Linked on from that one:

      Defence analyst Dr Paul G. Buchanan believed the Navy would also be keen on drones.

      “They want to start procuring drones so they can do maritime surveillance with the drones because we don’t have the boats or the aircraft to do it. There will have to be some serious budgetary decisions in the years to come because the poaching in New Zealand waters is only going to increase now that fishing stocks are depleted in the rest of the Pacific.”

      To be honest, I think it’s time that we started calling our EEZ what is really is – territory. We also need to extend it out to the edge of the continental shelf.

      • greywarbler 39.2.1

        Defence analyst Dr Paul G. Buchanan – seems to know what he is talking about and has his head screwed on well! We should be investing in our own fishing fleet that can double for doing other duties. Practical for a small nation. And look after our fish stocks better. Eat what we catch, little waste. And be ready for predators. Cod depletion in mind. Also tuna.

  38. Once Was Tim 40

    “Try and imagine how you would feel if this was your daughter”

    I have imagined just that. Thankfully my daughter is long over any superficiality she encountered amongst peer influence and 24/7 dosing of RockFM/ZMFM/The Edge/ et al.
    My immediate thought however was roll forward 5-10 years. The next Hine Elder ….. next next next nek minit

    • anker 40.1

      Thanks Once was Tim at 40.

      I appreciate your comment and your thoughtfulness about this. Bullying and such events are potentially hugely damaging. Sometimes for life.

  39. yeshe 41

    Is it just me noticing, or is Joyce’s silence really creepy .. like someone hiding in your shower and the power has gone off ? don’t trust it.

  40. tricle up 42

    Climate change the ultimate market failure and market paralysis, a little insurance with a sound and fair carbon tax, future proof as we pass the rains of control to the next generation .Sensible government for all.If only we could see the economic activity and savings provided by a carbon fund .leaving prejudices and biases aside irrespective of what subject we wish to focus on ,the distribution of wealth would be loved dearly ,can we train a nat to row?

  41. Blue 43

    Interesting article on Key from Australia. Quotable quote:

    “Our opponents say more children are living in poverty than when we came into office,” Key tells me. “And that’s probably right.”

    http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-key-factor-20140901-3ennz.html

  42. Herodotus 44

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11320425
    How a simply policy can tempt undecided voters
    “This is a first for New Zealand … these areas will be reserved predominantly for recreational fishing and will enhance the opportunity for Kiwi families to catch fish.”

    • BM 44.1

      National will get a ton of votes off that policy.

      Really clever.

      • Weepus beard 44.1.1

        This is just tinkering around the edges. Whatever floats your boat, as it were.

        • BM 44.1.1.1

          Tinkering around the edges?

          You don’t think this is a good idea?, I’d say a huge amount of kiwis would disagree with you.

          • yeshe 44.1.1.1.1

            on a scale of 1 to 10 — timing is very fishy.

            • Rich 44.1.1.1.1.1

              National was asking passerbys yesterday if they were interested in the environment. The other meme was that as far as corruption goes, everyone does it.

    • ianmac 44.2

      But note that they are not announcing a plan re recreational fishing. They are announcing a plan to explore the possibility of creating this reserve. So sometime next year a committee will be formed and later in the year they will consult and in 2016 they will report back and so on and on and…

      This NOT a definite plan/policy to actually do it. Sneaky fishy Key.

  43. b waghorn 45

    To the people that added to my cashless society comment not ignoring just can’t work out how to join conversation sorry

  44. Jenk 46

    Just been watching – at this late hour – a recording of The Nation debate between Blinglish and David Parker – and like other posters above, totally agree Parker beat Blinglish by a mile long/wide.
    But what I really wanted to say : Lisa Owen – near the end – was asking Blinglish whether he would agree with a staff member hacking into someone’s computer and getting their personal details and credit card details, and if this was ethical. Blinglish said he wouldn’t ask that of a staff member, and wouldn’t actually answer the question as to whether this activity would be ethical. And during the discussion of this, Lisa Owen specifically mentioned Jason Ede as doing such activity. Did anyone else notice this ? Is this something TV3 are likely to bring up ? Is this a new item via WhaleDump or is this something that’s already been highlighted and I’ve missed it ? Does anyone know ?

    • joe90 46.1

      This.

      What is clear is the most grave thing National fears is the release of emails exchanged between Whaleoil founder Cameron Slater and Jason Ede – the Prime Minister’s point-man between his office and ‘the bloggers’.

      The Ede emails are communications that lead back to the Office of the Prime Minister, to John Key himself and his Chief of Staff who oversees the handling of this political appointee. Jason Ede was initially employed by former National Party leader Don Brash, his salary paid for by Parliamentary Service. But when Key took over he kept Ede on the payroll. And when Key became Prime Minister he appointed Ede as an advisor in his 9th Floor Beehive suite, vetted by the Security Intelligence Service, and once cleared, placed on Ministerial Service payroll.

      Contacts inside National say Ede’s appointment was initially a mystery not only to the Party’s officials, but to their Ministers too. The question of what Ede’s purpose was, has for some been answered by the revelations in Nicky Hager’s book Dirty Politics.

      […]

      What we now know is Ede used email extensively to communicate with Cameron Slater.

      One of Ede’s handles that he used to communicate with the blogger was political.animal101@gmail.com.

      But where Ede slipped up was using his Jason.Ede@parliament.govt.nz email address to receive digitised copies of official government documents from a photocopier/scanner in the Beehive. Its address is: l9-Photocopier@parliament.govt.nz. The l9 referring to Level Nine, the 9th floor of the Beehive Executive Wing, the Prime Minister’s suite.

      Once Ede received the documents from L9 to his Beehive email address, he forwarded the documents, adding correspondence and instructions, on-sending to nzedjed@hotmail.com which was a second handle he used to then communicate directly with Cameron Slater.

      As we now understand, Ede also used varied or dynamic IP addresses to access the internet in an attempt to mask his true identity. But again he failed to understand ICT communications protocols and sent on meta data and idiosyncratic hash data of which is forensically identifiable.

      http://livenews.co.nz/2014/09/04/nationals-campaign-flying-blind-what-national-fears-most-and-where-it-is-most-vulnerable/

      • Jenk 46.1.1

        Thanks Joe90 – seems to me that maybe Lisa Owen was signalling that they (TV3) would be asking more questions re Jason Ede. Certainly it sounds like the media all need to be asking more searching questions re JE of whomever they can. Blinglish didn’t like the questioning at all.

  45. joe90 47

    Where unclecousin wants to take us.

    But in New Orleans, there are no more neighborhood schools. Instead, parents must choose — a charter school, private school, or one of six remaining traditional public schools. This fall, more than 9 in 10 New Orleans students will attend charters.

    Parents apply through an open admissions lottery. They request their top choices, and then a computer makes assignments.

    The district set aside one day in July for last-minute enrollment. It expected about 300 parents. More than 2,000 showed up in the next few days, and eventually almost 7,000 students would be assigned to new school seats.

    Some had missed the spring deadline. Others, like the Dellandes, were unhappy with the lottery’s match.

    Ashton Jr. was placed at a French-immersion charter in Uptown, more than 13 miles from home, while Chloe was supposed to be attending Arthur Ashe, a B-rated charter school featuring a vegetable garden and a blended learning program. The family wanted both children in the same school, preferably one not too far away.

    http://apps.npr.org/the-end-of-neighborhood-schools/

  46. blue leopard 48

    lol Excerpts from an hilarious Stuff article:

    “Aroha Ireland, the former poster girl of John Key’s pursuit for the top spot, said she would never vote for National and has no plans to return home from Australia. ”

    And

    “A lot of people in the area were struggling and it did not seem like National was doing anything to help, Tamaloto said, adding that she and her family voted Labour. “

  47. b waghorn 49

    I watched the English/Parker interview my take was English was in some way signalling his distast for his own party

  48. b waghorn 50

    The fact he didn’t spell some spin makes me wounder

  49. brian 51

    Nicky Hagar
    speaking at Public Lecture, Hamilton
    Waikato University, Lecture Block L
    7pm Monday 8 September

  50. Tiger Mountain 53

    Internet Mana final Roadtrip event in Otara Auckland TUESDAY Sept 9 6pm
    8000 people have attended the small hall meetings so far up and down the country, come along and support!
    https://www.facebook.com/events/946760495350803/

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