Open mike 07/12/2011

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1. ropata 1

   7 December 2011 at 6:48 am

   Hugh Pavletich on the political circus taking the ‘garden’ out of the Garden City

   There is a attitudinal change underway in Christchurch, New Zealand, following the first major earthquake 4 September 2010, the second 22 February with the third 13 June 2011.

   To date, there have been some 7,700 aftershocks in total and they are still continuing.

   In development and construction terms, Christchurch was on its knees prior to the September 2010 event, mainly because the failed amalgamation of local authorities some 20 years earlier, had bureaucratically buggered the city, sapping it of commercial vitality and enterprise.

   Development in the wider city had degenerated very much in to a “political game”.

   Some six months prior to the September 2010 earthquake, the writer discussed within “Houston, we have a (housing affordability) problem”, where Christchurch was getting it wrong with its ‘dense thinking’. And importantly – what some of the consequences are for the wider economy.

   The bloated centralized Council “ruled” – and still does – so that now, it is at war with its community and business.

   It is very much now a contest between the romantics and realists – whatever their political persuasions.

   The three key players to date have been the former accountant / forex dealer and current Prime Minister Rt. Hon John Key, former woodwork teacher and current Recovery Minister Hon Gerry Brownlee and former chemist / television presenter and current Mayor Bob Parker. From the time of the first earthquake event, September last year, these three people never grasped what needed to be done, to maintain public morale and ensure commercial confidence was maintained.

   An effort was made during the early part of this year to address the “leadership vacuum”, by bringing on board Roger Sutton, Chief Executive of the local Orion electricity network provider, to head up the Canterbury Earthquake Recovery Authority, responsible to Minister Brownlee.

   Sutton has failed to date. He has not replaced the civil service management team, with skilled specialist people from the private sector to support him. Sutton’s abilities appear to begin and end as a “communicator”.
   • pollywog 1.1

     7 December 2011 at 8:42 am

     meanwhile…

     EQC accused of ‘jobs for boys, girls’

     The Earthquake Commission (EQC) has been accused of “jobs for the boys and girls” after employing the daughter of its claims manager at $75 an hour

     Assessors are chosen for communication skills not for their building knowledge.

     http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/rebuilding-christchurch/6096870/EQC-accused-of-jobs-for-boys-girls

     …meaning talk to Daddy nicely.

     This is what id expect following on from Brownlees appointment of Shipley. It’s a precedent thats been set and followed from the top down.

     So if it’s alright for Gerry the Hut to dish out jobs for the boys ands girls,and pay them more than they’re worth, it’s alright for everyone to do it.

     Reminds me of Pike river where he looked the other way on safety and monitoring so everyone else did also.
     • Uturn 1.1.1

       7 December 2011 at 9:59 am

       Last week I was researching a prominent player in NZ HR and their statement was they hire based on who you know, not what you know. They want the potential connections of your wider contacts. Not at all a huge surprise in that idea, except that in context it was a statement of class division that contradicted the publicly stated aims of the organisation. If you’re out, don’t be thinking of getting in; and if you’re a client, figure on staying one. In this economic reality, that means huge increases in the gap between top and bottom. I don’t have a lot of sympathy for the middle classes, but the current attitude of class division will eliminate the middle classes faster than any yet-to-be-concieved socialist revolution. No more getting ahead. No more New Rich. Only way is down. Note to “Mum and Dad”: these guys aren’t your mates, support them at your peril.

       Further down this page Pollywog says we should enter into partnerships with these born to rule delusionaries. I’d like that to be an option, but some are clearly steadfastly committed to ideals that will never compromise, in areas of great importance to society. In those instances, the public must simply sidestep official authority. This does not require any illegal acts, only that we refind in ourselves the elements of humanity we have been taught to dismiss under the influence of consumerism and the belief that paternal government will do it for us if we’d only give them more money. (This might sound remarkably like any number of variations of trojan-horse right wing policy, but I mean it in it’s individual, humanist, sense) Sure, a responsible government can act effectively with social intiatives, but that must never abdicate our personal responsiblity. Just act, in small moments, where there is need, where things that are clearly wrong can be made temporarily right. It’s not hard. It might even feel good.
       • Ianupnorth 1.1.1.1

         7 December 2011 at 12:43 pm

         The town where I live dishes out various ‘research’ and ‘projects’ to lots of people – helpful if your surname is M****son or B**ois….
         • Vicky32 1.1.1.1.1

           7 December 2011 at 5:54 pm

           your surname is M****son or B**ois….

           I know what those names must be… I won’t say of course! 🙂
   • Spratwax 1.2

     7 December 2011 at 9:29 am

     Judging by the election results, Christchurch people seem to be very happy with how the Government is handling the recovery!
     • rosy 1.2.1

       7 December 2011 at 9:43 am

       Stockholm syndrome 😉 or the ones least happy have already left.
       • Puddleglum 1.2.1.1

         7 December 2011 at 3:31 pm

         “the ones least happy have already left”

         Or didn’t vote. Here’s the Christchurch Central Electorate results (Candidate and Party votes) for 2011 and 2008. National and Wagner haven’t gained any more votes (even after the specials they may, in fact, have fewer). So no more people have gone to National.

         The big drop is in Labour party vote (6,000 down) and Burns’ candidate vote (4,000 down).

         Overall, party vote was down over 9,500 and electorate vote down about 8,500 (or so).

         My guess is that a lot of people simply couldn’t be bothered to vote given their circumstances, rather than that there was a sudden mass disillusion with Burns, in particular. I don’t think anyone would argue that he’s done a bad job since the earthquakes. 

         There’s still the specials, of course. 
         • seeker 1.2.1.1.1

           7 December 2011 at 10:25 pm

           After seeing the report on Campbell Live last week about the stress people are under living in Christchurch and how severe stress is now really affecting so many, I believe it has also affected voter turnout. When severely stressed, everything seems too hard . This year’s election was extra hard to me, and I wasn’t even living in Christchurch.

           To me, many factors made these elections harder and far more stressful than others:

           1. I did not feel informed enough about policies and thus under prepared to make decisions. I think this was the short run up to Nov. 26 after the RWC. As Phil Goff said, “he”, but I think he could have said ‘we’, ” could have done with another couple of weeks” to thrash things out. I still couldn’t find out why Key, (‘cos I am sure it is driven by him mainly), was selling the electricity assets. I asked my nat electorate office and John Key’s office, no one could give me a straight answer. So many different answers were given, in fact, or none, in the case of the PM’s office.

           2. We not only had to vote on who to elect – and we had been waiting 3 years for this- we also had to vote in the referendum as to whether we should keep MMP. This made two, no four, huge decisions to think about.

           3. To add to the other two, there was the huge worry of the asset sales. All very well for someone to say to me -it’s simple -if you want the assets sold then vote national ,if not then vote Labour-this two days before the election. Which is when it hit me -me voting Labour gave me a voice to vote Labour, but it gave me no voice about the asset sales. why had I not realised this before?

           In the polling booth I had my say about the party I wanted, who I wanted for my electorate MP, whether I wanted MMP and what would be my second choice. OK this was a lot to decide, but I had a voice. How did I make my voice heard about asset sales,which could mean life or death to some?

           I needed another referendum sheet, but I did not realise this properly until I stood in the polling booth.

           This is where my feelings of unpreparedness and worry had come from. Thus the election was all too ‘tinpot'(never mind tea pot) and banana republic- typical national -smoke and mirrors . Give ’em cognitive overload, and while they’re puzzling about this, slip something else under the radar.They’ll never know what hit ’em , and by the time they wake up, it’ll be fait accomplis again. Fiendishly clever.

           No wonder I was stressed at the thought of voting. and as for the poor folks in Christchurch….Having been so devastated and shaken for so long, I bet many could not even bear to think about all these choices they had to make, let alone be upbeat enough to tramp to the polling booths. Stress can be so debilitating and almost soul destroying.

           Please God the severely stressed get through and are well enough to vote next time.
2. logie97 2

   7 December 2011 at 7:12 am

   Charter Schools.
   Will they be measured by the all-singing-all-dancing National Standards or not?
   Is the floating of the idea of these schools an admission that this government does not believe in the ability of National Standards to lift the “tail”?
   • Pete George 2.1

     7 December 2011 at 7:27 am

     No one measure on it’s own will ‘lift the tail’. Identification is important (National Standards may help with this) but the problems then need to be addressed and targeted.

     Failures in education are very complex, they involve not only schools but failures in families and society.

     Different initiatives need to be tried to see what works – and different things may help in different areas and demographics.
     • logie97 2.1.1

       7 December 2011 at 7:43 am

       Answer the questions know-all…
     • mickysavage 2.1.2

       7 December 2011 at 7:49 am

       So Petey do we have a good education system in NZ?  The rest of the world seems to think so.  And the ones that do really well, for example Finland, have even greater central control and management and more resources.

       Failures are predominantly due to poverty.  It is hard to be educated if you can’t hear because of glue ear or you are hungry. 
       • aerobubble 2.1.2.1

         7 December 2011 at 9:13 am

         Yes, our education system is far too good and is making the world worried. Our leadership need to wreckify matters by mypoically concentrating on schools and not on the wider issues that influence children throughout their lives. But we can thank the Human Rights Act for this, since Children have half as much spent on them as the Adults they will become (some TV doco), and thanks to the HA Act nobody can actually stand up for kids rights.
       • Herodotus 2.1.2.2

         7 December 2011 at 12:12 pm

         That is why 1/10 students (As per http://www.dyslexiafoundation.org.nz/index_flash.php )are grossly under supported regarding leading difficulties. Just look at the grossly inadequate funding that has been provided and the steps that parents have to under go to receive any assistance. We are so willing to sacrifice 10% away. If that is so Not so World Leading are we???
         http://www.dyslexiafoundation.org.nz/govt_funding.html
         http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/ED0806/S00041.htm
         http://www.minedu.govt.nz/Parents/AllAges/UsefulInformation/Dyslexia.aspx
         http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/992327
       • Colonial Viper 2.1.2.3

         7 December 2011 at 6:42 pm

         So Petey do we have a good education system in NZ?

         No, we do not.

         Roughly half the children in our schools are below average, for starters.
         • Chris 2.1.2.3.1

           7 December 2011 at 6:46 pm

           Ha, sometimes I think there needs to be a like button on comments.
     • mik e 2.1.3

       7 December 2011 at 6:31 pm

       Pompus git more boring the pants of everyone with the glaringly obvious
       The research has been done already.
3. mickysavage 3

   7 December 2011 at 7:24 am

   Wow.  Even the OECD is saying that the gap between rich and poor in New Zealand is too big and it is advocating for an increase in taxes for the wealthy.

   And the increase in the gap in New Zealand from the 1980s has been one of the largest.

   Banks was on Radio New Zealand this morning saying that an increase in tax will not solve the problem.  The guy really needs remedial education.  Maybe he went to a charter school when he was young?
   • Pete George 3.1

     7 December 2011 at 7:35 am

     An increase in tax won’t solve ‘the problem’.

     Widening income gaps, high unemployment levels and entrenched intergeneration social problems are far more complex than going back to tax rates that didn’t solve the problem over the course of a decade.
     • millsy 3.1.1

       7 December 2011 at 7:46 am

       How many hospitals were closed by National before Bill Birch cut taxes in 1996? 38.

       How many hospitals were closed by Labour after they raised taxes in 1999?

       Taxes pay for social programs, and the lower the tax, the more our schools and hospitals are starved of funds.
       • Pete George 3.1.1.1

         7 December 2011 at 7:55 am

         Tax rates don’t necessarily equate to tax take, they can cause the reverse.

         Increased funding doesn’t necessarily equate to efficient use of funds.
         • mickysavage 3.1.1.1.1

           7 December 2011 at 8:13 am

           Noooo, fortune cookie Petey is here.
            
           Tax rates only don’t equate to tax take if you have a poorly designed system and you cut out back office workers so that the tax cannot be collected.
            
           Read the report Petey before you comment.  There is a wealth of information there from a very fiscally conservative organisation and they have drawn a clear conclusion.  Which regrettably is something I have never seen you do.
           • Pete George 3.1.1.1.1.1

             7 December 2011 at 8:44 am

             Tax take is more important than tax rates. Increased tax rates can have a negative affect on tax take.

             If business conditions are improved then tax take increases and employment increases.
             If employment increases the tax take increases, demands on tax decreases, and income improves for more people.
             • mickysavage …

               7 December 2011 at 8:50 am

               Something is more important than something else.  Increasing something sometimes causes a decrease in something else.
                
               If conditions improve some things get better.
                
               I am just seeing if I can get even more generalised than Petey.
             • aerobubble …

               7 December 2011 at 9:26 am

               Increase tax rates have many effects pro and con. Those with influence will find loopholes to get around paying tax, usually a fee to a tax accountant. With too little tax government fails to churn money through the economy and allievate poverty, too much tax and government stifle innovation and companies move offshore. Now what is happening on the ground, well skilled individuals are leaving, private debt is huge, and we’re getting worse off. Stands to reasonable person that people who talk about matching taxation with OZ are actually fed up with arguing and just want the simpliest solution. Tax threshold, GST off fresh food, CGT, and take out the distortion that is sending kiwis flying to OZ. We are over taxed, newly skilled kiwis are over taxed, and those with wealth and property are under taxed. Because those over taxed LEAVE, the under taxed stay put and talk bollocks.
             • Spratwax …

               7 December 2011 at 10:11 am

               Improving business conditions will not necessarily increase tax take- the tax loopholes are still there to exploit- its just that businesses can write-off more ‘costs’ against the earnings- are you naive, stupid, or omitting the facts like most RWNJ’s. Not to mention the vast array of private tax loopholes, Trusts etc.

               I’d like to know what the corporate tax take is for a start- I’d bet it is very, very low to almost non-existant. So Pete, improving business increases tax -take from the minions that are on wages and salaries because there are more jobs? You’ve just admitted that tax-take only comes from wage & salary workers. Is that fair?

               Employment increases do not translate into income increases- maybe if you’re a CEO, but the policy of capping inflation introduced under rogernomics (and maintained by Treasury to this day) necessarily requires a policy of unemployment (around 5% minimum).

               Get with the programme Petey!
               • Pete George …

                 7 December 2011 at 11:14 am

                 I’d like to know what the corporate tax take is for a start- I’d bet it is very, very low to almost non-existant.

                 The corporate tax take was 8.6 percent more than expected at $2.71 billion in the four month period to October 31 2011.

                 http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1112/S00124/nz-operating-deficit-wider-than-forecast-in-first-4-months.htm
                 • Ianupnorth …

                   7 December 2011 at 12:46 pm

                   Spending money on what works (e.g. health promoting schools) and not spending it on things that actually increase the gap (Kiwisport) would be a nice place to start.
                 • McFlock …

                   7 December 2011 at 12:54 pm

                    
                   here is a breakdown of tax revenue proportions – gst revenue has doubles since 2001, whereas company tax has increased less than individual tax, as a proportion of itself. Below the graph is a link to an excel data table with the actual numbers.
                     
                   Business used to pay more, and they’re still bitching. 
                    
             • mik e …

               7 December 2011 at 6:33 pm

               Pompus Git tell me why when National have reduced the tax rate they found the tax take also reduced.
               • AAMC …

                 7 December 2011 at 7:51 pm

                 PG needs to be put in the #museamofneoliberalism

                 Try reading some economists that are still alive Pete,

                 From Krugman yesterday…

                 “These days, you constantly see articles that make it seem as if there was a great debate in the 1930s between Keynes and Hayek, and that this debate has continued through the generations. As Warsh says, nothing like this happened. Hayek essentially made a fool of himself early in the Great Depression, and his ideas vanished from the professional discussion.

                 So why is his name invoked so much now? Because The Road to Serfdom struck a political chord with the American right, which adopted Hayek as a sort of mascot — and retroactively inflated his role as an economic thinker. ”

                 http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/05/things-that-never-happened-in-the-history-of-macroeconomics/
     • Tiger Mountain 3.1.2

       7 December 2011 at 7:46 am

       Could be time for a Crosby Textor memo Micky, I enjoy those, always chuckle to myself. Obvious humour but funny because of being so close to the mark.

       Blinglish on RNZ this morning said “whether trickle down works or not is really just an idea”
       The OECD says trickle down has not worked. The inequality in NZ is more than just an ‘idea’ for hundreds of thousands of citizens. The new nats trick, now that they are available for interview again, seems to be just spray words around with little regard to their veracity, and keep moving.
       • mickysavage 3.1.2.1

         7 December 2011 at 7:49 am

         Cheers TM.  Will work on it.
4. kriswgtn 4

   7 December 2011 at 7:39 am

   Widening income gaps, high unemployment levels and entrenched intergeneration social problems are far more complex blah blah blah

   and this govt that Your LEADER is part of of is making it worse and increasing these problems dickhead

   Proud?? of course you are fukin tory
   • Pete George 4.1

     7 December 2011 at 7:51 am

     Proud?? I’m sure you’re not, abuse makes a very poor argument.
     • McFlock 4.1.1

       7 December 2011 at 3:35 pm

       Meh. Seems appropriate in your case.
     • mik e 4.1.2

       7 December 2011 at 6:36 pm

       Pompus Git Neglecting large swaithes of children causes a $6 billion a year drag on our economy
5. travellerev 5

   7 December 2011 at 8:14 am

   In the US the senate has just passed a law that will allow the US army to take to the streets of America and to arrest people and incarcerate them where ever they want whenever they want for as long as they like without a trial and without a jury of their peers.

   In Pakistan the US shot 24 Pakistani soldiers in an army base. In retaliation the Pakistani government has closed of the main supply road to Afghanistan and Russia is threatening to do the same.

   In Iran two army bases have been blown up nuclear scientists have been assassinated and a US drone has been shot down by Iran. The Mossad and CIA have been implicated.

   Two Russian war ships and an unknown number of submarines have arrived and a defence rocket system is installed in Syria as I write this.

   Russia has threatened to bomb the shit out of the countries where the US plans to install their rocket systems aimed at Russia and China is prepared to protect Pakistan even if that means WWIII.
   Fukushima has reached a China syndrome stage in Reactor one and pumped even more tons of radioactive water into the Pacific.
   And I haven’t even started on the continued Financial collapse of Europe.
   These are some of the things you don’t find in our mainstream media. Well perhaps on page 10 somewhere in amongst the feel god crap.
   I could link this to all kinds of sources but I’m sure deep in your heart you know this is all happening so I won’t bother.

   Sort of puts everything in perspective don’t you think?
   • pollywog 5.1

     7 December 2011 at 8:34 am

     So what should i be doing ev ?
     • Tiger Mountain 5.1.1

       7 December 2011 at 8:45 am

       Wait till the appropriate apocalyptic time Polly, and adopt the “in case of nuclear war” position.

       I’m not that cynical, people uniting got the yanks and soviets to pull their heads in a bit in the 80s, and it will have to happen again or everyone will be doing what the first sentence says.
       • pollywog 5.1.1.1

         7 December 2011 at 9:26 am

         I’ve had arguments with reductionists and idealogues about getting back to basics and doing their own little bit in their own little way as if it would make a difference in the wider scheme of things and got looked at like i was the enemy for suggesting that unless corporates and gov’ts come to the party it’s all for nought and that we should be looking to build constructive socially conscious partnerships with those who may be more receptive to change rather than trying to bring them down and start from scratch.
         • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.1.1

           7 December 2011 at 12:43 pm

           The corporates will be collapsing anyway – what we need to do is ensure that they psychopaths don’t take control again.
     • travellerev 5.1.2

       7 December 2011 at 8:53 am

       Start your veggie beds, buy a still, dig in and try to be as independent of the system as you can and here is why: http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/2011/12/02/cris-martensen-on-fiat-money-peak-oil-and-why-the-next-20-years-are-going-to-be-like-never-before/
       • pollywog 5.1.2.1

         7 December 2011 at 9:17 am

         Why do i need a still for ?

         Can’t see getting blotto every other day is gonna help and i hate hate feel of dirt under my fingernails.

         Agree on getting off the grid but i’m more likey to jump into the system boots and all and start pissing on the inside of the tent instead.
         • travellerev 5.1.2.1.1

           7 December 2011 at 9:34 am

           As my blog attests too so am I but I still tend to my veggie beds and distil my own. LOL.

           In Europe traditionally booze and cigarettes were great barter tools during times of distress. If Cris Martensen’s contention is right and I have no reason to doubt what he is saying, we are in for a massive change and massive changes are never painless. That’s why I put it in my previous comment. but I agree getting blotto everyday is most definitely not the way to go.
           • Colonial Viper 5.1.2.1.1.1

             7 December 2011 at 9:49 am

             Yeah the products of a still can get you life or death products and services after a collapse.

             Its a wonder what people will do for you for a bottle of gut rot when there is nothing else going.
             • Uturn …

               7 December 2011 at 10:07 am

               Alcohol also good for basic medical proceedures.
               • travellerev …

                 7 December 2011 at 12:36 pm

                 I use it for infusions with herbs and flowers too. The methyl alcohol I use for home made cleaning sprays Great stuff!
                  
                  
                 • felix …

                   7 December 2011 at 1:18 pm

                   Making some decent gold rum at the moment Ev. You must come round for a drop when it’s ready.
6. NickS 6

   7 December 2011 at 8:25 am

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/rebuilding-christchurch/6096870/EQC-accused-of-jobs-for-boys-girls

   My how surprising…

   And worse yet, assessors are chosen on the basis of communication skills rather than building or civil engineering knowledge.
7. NickS 7

   7 December 2011 at 8:32 am

   /groan

   We can haz sceptical tv programs for a fucking change?:
   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6096676/Sensing-a-rise-in-psychic-beliefs
   • Tiger Mountain 7.1

     7 December 2011 at 8:42 am

     Psychic beliefs. Not my cup of the proverbial, things that go bump in the day like tory governments are scary enough.
   • Vicky32 7.2

     7 December 2011 at 6:10 pm

     That’s just completely insane, Nick…

      

      
8. In Vino Veritas 8

   7 December 2011 at 8:36 am

   Thought for the day:

   “Government does not tax to get the money it needs; government always finds a need for the money it gets.” – Ronald Reagan

   [2 minute fact check of the day: Ronald Reagan increased US Federal government spending from 32% of GDP to 34% while cutting taxes. This resulted in $1.9 trillion of borrowing that the US is still paying interest on. Under Reagan, did not tax to get the money it needed, borrowed instead. A lot like National, really. Eddie]
   • pollywog 8.1

     7 December 2011 at 8:48 am

     Thought for the day

     “I’m a lumberjack and I’m OK” – Monty Python
     • Half Crown Millionare 8.1.1

       7 December 2011 at 9:00 am

       Shit hot reply
   • Campbell Larsen 8.2

     7 December 2011 at 8:57 am

     Thats not a thought, or a truism, in fact in the NZ context it is totally incorrect as we have posted surpluses, though notably these are far less common under a National government.
     As with other tea partyesque slogans it is simply anti govt idealism which offers nothing in the way of actual suggestions as to how essential services may be maintained or improved.
   • Colonial Viper 8.3

     7 December 2011 at 9:59 am

     $1.9T in borrowing? That’s like 12 months work for Obama.
   • Ianupnorth 8.4

     7 December 2011 at 12:51 pm

     My thought for the day is why is John Banks wearing the same specs that the main character wears in the TV series ‘The Kennedy’s’ (see http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2011/apr/07/kennedys-bodyshock-reviews)
     Does he think he is old man Kennedy now?
   • AAMC 8.5

     7 December 2011 at 7:56 pm

     IVV, Debt & Dumb, can I suggest you read this..

     http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/11/debt-and-dumb-201111
   • millsy 8.6

     7 December 2011 at 11:35 pm

     Yes, Ronald Reagan, who expanded social security, and created a new government department – Veteran’s Affairs. I think he also kept Medicare and Medicaid — programs he railed against during the 1960’s.
9. Spratwax 9

   7 December 2011 at 8:48 am

   Just read that a coal company in the US, Alpha Natural resources, is paying US$210m in damages for one of the worst US mining tragedies in decades, killing 29 men in April last year. A federal investigation found that the mine violated safety regulations.

   Will the families of the Pike River 29 get compensation?
   • pollywog 9.1

     7 December 2011 at 8:51 am

     I think they headed that one off yesterday in anticipation of liability.

     Pike River: No money in mine’s kitty

     http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pike-river-mine-disaster/6092596/Pike-River-No-money-in-mines-kitty
     • uke 9.1.1

       7 December 2011 at 1:13 pm

       This is why limited liability is immoral.
        
       It is not enough for the shareholders whose money enabled this disaster to simply lose their “investment”. They should be held criminally accountable. Just as they “own” the profits, they should “own” the responsibilities.
        
       “Corporation: An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility” (Ambrose Bierce)
       • Colonial Viper 9.1.1.1

         7 December 2011 at 6:40 pm

         Swiss banks don’t fail. In Switzerland, banking boards of directors are personally liable for outstanding debts if their banks go under.

         Therefore, the ‘give a shit factor’ is much higher on those boards.

         It is not enough for the shareholders whose money enabled this disaster to simply lose their “investment”.

         It’s the directors and executive management who should be on the hook. Not the shareholders.
         • Chris 9.1.1.1.1

           7 December 2011 at 6:44 pm

           Yeah I agree with this.

           You could never have shareholders having liability. Unless they are majority shareholders they generally have absolutely no control over what the companies do and need to rely on what management and directors tell them.
           • Colonial Viper 9.1.1.1.1.1

             7 December 2011 at 6:46 pm

             Damn I’m sounding like a capitalist this evening.
           • Draco T Bastard 9.1.1.1.1.2

             7 December 2011 at 6:52 pm

             Nope, the shareholders need to be liable as well as the directors.
         • uke 9.1.1.1.2

           7 December 2011 at 7:44 pm

           If shareholders were personally liable for what their money enables to happen, they would naturally take a lot more interest in what their companies are doing, whether this be polluting rivers, exploiting workers, supplying arms to dictators, etc. – I expect even less of this would occur than with making directors personally responsible.

           The whole idea of corporations was to free investors from legal obligations that arose with the “partnership” model. Limited liability is an essential component of the apparatus of capitalism.

           The documentary “The Corporation” sets it out very clearly.
10. aerobubble 10

    7 December 2011 at 9:03 am

    How hard could this be for you to understand!
    When Key gets into any kind of trouble he’ll
    invent stuff.

    Police have time on their hands!

    Christchurch schools are failing their pupils.

    Ad hoc justifications that have no basis in fact.

    Charter Schools are needed to keep the wall of
    noise around the government going, if controvesy
    should ever go silent National voters might just
    start questioning National handling of the economy.

    How hard could this be for you to understand!

    And why do you like being lied to? Well its
    simple, TV stopped informing you, your consent
    is nolonger required for them to peddle their lies,
    now even your election mandate can be ignored, Charter
    Schools and limits on government spending ad hoc invention.

    Because as a supporter of the government you
    immediately come to their side if they are under attack,
    and media make sure to reinforce the government line.

    Poverty increasing faster, and why would the media care?
    You’re too doppy to see the carrot and stick. The
    carrot you provide by supporting a mate (govt) under
    attack and the stick that if you question government you
    could be the next target of government lying. Oh, and
    expect to be used, like Police were used to create
    consent for the calling Police in to search media organisations.

    How hard could this be for you to understand?

    Take limits on expenditure, everyone knows the
    first thingthe next government can do is to remove the cap
    citing the need to grow the economy, when the economy
    picks up – as it slows help to industries crying out
    for help. Why would National want to slow increases
    in R&D spending by government when the economy recovers?

    So its all bullshit. In fact its pork bullshit.

    Its all about who they will put on the Charter School
    consultative group and how much they pay them, ACT
    party ‘pay back’ a doner alledgedly? So let’s sum up,
    National win by looking under attack (on National
    spin doctors CHOICE). Why not talk about CGT, or poverty,
    or education (not charter).

    In many ways, Key is treatened by education and by spending,
    and thats why the spin doctors need to set the agenda in
    these areas with ad hoc attacks. Growth down grade
    means lower taxation means spending blow outs. Government
    wants to move the anti-standard debate off the education
    debate.

    Key is quite happy setting precedents, like wanting
    to over rule courts, overrule magna carta protections,
    using police to investigate media during elections, and
    even shock horror invent stuff on manifestos even before
    the election count has yet to come in!!!!

    This is nologer smart politics, its lying, and the worst
    kind of politics, dictatorship of the powerful. MMP does
    not stop Muldoonism, its just makes the Muldoonist alter
    its methods. If we want good government we need our PM to
    respect democracy, Key doesn’t.

    And how can you not understand that lies in, means lies
    out, lies corrupt the invisible hand and the informed
    consent mandate. When we let lies stand we weaken the
    debate. There is no strength in National, the fact that
    they need to believe they can just distort means they’ve
    lost. They’re losers, desperately trying to hold on to wealth
    they never earnt and they now it.
    • Colonial Viper 10.1

      7 December 2011 at 10:10 am

      Not only are they losers…they are afraid.
11. Bunji 11

    7 December 2011 at 9:24 am

    An amusing comment/cartoon on the media…
12. joe90 12

    7 December 2011 at 10:10 am

    Came across this 2009 article from The Atlantic: The Quiet Coup.

    The crash has laid bare many unpleasant truths about the United States. One of the most alarming, says a former chief economist of the International Monetary Fund, is that the finance industry has effectively captured our government—a state of affairs that more typically describes emerging markets, and is at the center of many emerging-market crises. If the IMF’s staff could speak freely about the U.S., it would tell us what it tells all countries in this situation: recovery will fail unless we break the financial oligarchy that is blocking essential reform. And if we are to prevent a true depression, we’re running out of time.

    The article continues, waving the yellow caution flag, until this passage:

    Boris Fyodorov, the late finance minister of Russia, struggled for much of the past 20 years against oligarchs, corruption, and abuse of authority in all its forms. He liked to say that confusion and chaos were very much in the interests of the powerful—letting them take things, legally and illegally, with impunity. When inflation is high, who can say what a piece of property is really worth? When the credit system is supported by byzantine government arrangements and backroom deals, how do you know that you aren’t being fleeced?

    The pricks must be rubbing their hands anticipating all those lovely state assets just waiting to be snapped up.
    • Colonial Viper 12.1

      7 December 2011 at 10:16 am

      Go long guillotine manufacturers.
      • Pascal's bookie 12.1.1

        7 December 2011 at 12:47 pm

        + Tumbrils
        • Colonial Viper 12.1.1.1

          7 December 2011 at 10:36 pm

          For the lesser minions who have served the 0.1% town square stocks will be sufficient.
13. Colonial Viper 13

    7 December 2011 at 10:13 am

    Claims of corruption in NZ true

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/rebuilding-christchurch/6096870/EQC-accused-of-jobs-for-boys-girls

    Unfucking believable. This explains a lot.

    And this:

    (EQC) Assessors are chosen for communication skills not for their building knowledge.
    • Jim Nald 13.1

      7 December 2011 at 10:33 am

      “communication skills” can also sometimes, in some contexts, be the euphemistic expression for “spin”
    • Spratwax 13.2

      7 December 2011 at 10:44 am

      I know of a guy who works at a well-known bank (a manager)who had a son in 7th form last year and this year he got a job as an assessor in Chch- regularly flies down from Auckland to Chch. If he’s getting $75 per hr at aged 18/19 for ‘communication skills’, this country and its processes are seriously corrupt!!
    • Draco T Bastard 13.3

      7 December 2011 at 1:16 pm

      That’s interesting. My nephew, a qualified builder, was approached to be an assessor but was turned down because he didn’t have the correct assessing qualification – and now we find out that they’re only employing on communication ability.
14. Jackal 14

    7 December 2011 at 10:20 am

    Alcohol vs Marijuana

    Surely the government could work to reduce the harm caused by treating alcohol as a dangerous drug. From young people binge drinking themselves to an early death to fueling violence and drunk driving, the destructive effects of alcohol are by far the most costly to our wallets and society.

    Contrast that approximately 1000 alcohol-related deaths each year with the comparatively harmless drug marijuana, which is widely used and hasn’t killed a single person…
    • McFlock 14.1

      7 December 2011 at 3:51 pm

      While I largely agree with your comment, Jackal, I do take issue with “hasn’t killed a single person”. Besides the apparent corellation with various psychoses, which I won’t debate one way or the other, claiming that inhaling burnt vegetation into one’s lungs at the rate of use in the global population has never killed anyone borders on crass hyperbole (particulalry if you take into account the tar content of leaf, which although shit is still sold for consumption). Not to mention that much alcohol-related harm involves behavioural effects of alcohol, so you’d also have to include darwin-award behaviour like driving or operating machinery while stoned.
        
      Is dope safer than alcohol on a population basis? Almost certainly.
      Is dope perfectly safe? Hell no.

      Should it be decriminalised or regulated? From a public health perspective, there is a strong case for it. The only exception would be further research into its relationship with schiziod-type disorders, but that *might* be countered by the positive effect of quality standards regulations, e.g. not putting fly spray or class A/B drugs on it to heighten the effects. Same can be said for E.
      • Mutante 14.1.1

        7 December 2011 at 8:20 pm

        I’m a recovering alcoholic and booze cost me countless missed opportunities and an engagement. Works for some people but hooks others in hopelessly. Weed on the other hand I can take or leave without wanting to consume it until it’s all gone and then go looking for more. I have a stressful job so a bong and some shit TV at the end of the day is nice and relaxing. So I’m biased but I can accept that cannabis seriously disagrees with some people in the way drink did for me.

        Personally I think that all drugs should be out in the open and regulated and there should be drug education in schools not based around warmed over War On Some Drugs(tm) propaganda like DARE.

        There’s a big double standard going on when I could get a free trip to the cop shop for having a puff in the park when there’s bottle shops on just about every bloody corner.

        That said though, I think the booze culture goes a lot deeper than advertising or availability. It’s something culturally ingrained. Same with macho dickhead behavior. That’s something already present that’s just turned up to 11 by alcohol.
        • Vicky32 14.1.1.1

          8 December 2011 at 1:40 pm

          I’m a recovering alcoholic and booze cost me countless missed opportunities and an engagement.

          Having had alcoholics in my family, I very much agree with you! Alcohol needs to be more regulated… at the least!

          That said though, I think the booze culture goes a lot deeper than advertising or availability. It’s something culturally ingrained. Same with macho dickhead behavior. That’s something already present that’s just turned up to 11 by alcohol.

          Absolutely agreed!
15. Afewknowthetruth 15

    7 December 2011 at 11:36 am

    trav

    Thanks for trying to pull the discussion back to reality.

    Unfortunately, most of those who comment don’t like discussing real stuff -like peak oil, financial chicanery that will lead to a meltdown, long term environmental collapse etc. (even morality is off the agenda most of the time)- so they do their best to get the conversation back onto irrelevant and trivial matters such as tax rates. That is exactly what happened during the so-called election debates, of course: no mention whasoever of reality by either of the major parties. Let’s not have an informed public that will start making appropriate choices. No wonder Labour lost support and the turnout was so low. Fortunately not everyone is stupid.

    The period we are living through is very much like the world of 1928 combined with the world of 1938 …. ‘the market will go up for ever and there will be no war’.

    The ‘magic’ of Christmas (which is a fake festival anyway*) will keep the proles distracted and amused for the next few weeks. After that?

    * corresponding with the ‘rebirth’ of the Sun following the Northern Hemisphere winter solstice .
    • Uturn 15.1

      7 December 2011 at 1:39 pm

      “* corresponding with the ‘rebirth’ of the Sun following the Northern Hemisphere winter solstice .”

      I wonder if hanging decorations of angels on christmas trees has anything to do with Odin’s nine day self-inficted ordeal hanging from the “tree of life”. A god sacrificing himself to himself for knowledge of “the secrets”- there’s an interesting idea, almost artistic.
      • Mutante 15.1.1

        7 December 2011 at 8:26 pm

        That’s torn it then, I’m putting a tree of life up in the lounge with a big fuck off Odin hanging off it.
        • lprent 15.1.1.1

          7 December 2011 at 8:34 pm

          Three legs and a single eye? More of a example of alien life than anything else..
16. Mike 16

    7 December 2011 at 12:01 pm

    Cactus Kate over at Kiwiblog seems to be confirming rumours that David Shearer announced his candidacy after meetings with such people as Hooton, Odgers, Farrar and Slater.

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/12/own_goal-4.html#comment-911827

    [lprent: Moved to OpenMike. It is interesting but you’d need to reframe it for the post. ]
    • chris73 16.1

      7 December 2011 at 12:27 pm

      I thought this was more interesting:

      http://waitakerenews.blogspot.com/2011/11/who-should-be-labours-next-leader.html
    • felix 16.2

      7 December 2011 at 12:42 pm

      Labour and other lefties would be well advised to ignore anything Slater, Farrar and Odgers have to say on the matter.

      It doesn’t matter whether you agree with their assessments. It doesn’t matter whether you think they’re being malicious or not either. Time spent figuring their motives is time wasted.

      Just disregard them as you would a JW at the door on a summer’s morning and get on with your life.
      • Pascal's bookie 16.2.1

        7 December 2011 at 12:45 pm

        +1
17. travellerev 17

    7 December 2011 at 12:37 pm

    Another one for your John Key voting mates: http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/2011/12/07/christchurch-fletcher-and-zombie-banks-are-john-keys-masters-making-a-mint-out-of-the-christchurch-quake/
18. joe90 18

    7 December 2011 at 12:48 pm

    A sobering read from an unusual source.

    The American Conservative: He Was 22, She Was 12.

    He was 22, a corporal in the Marines from Preston, Iowa, a “city” incorporated in 1890 with a present population of 949. He died in a hospital in Germany of “wounds received from an explosive device while on patrol in Helmand province [Afghanistan].” Of him, his high school principal said, “He was a good kid.” He is survived by his parents.

    […]

    So who, that same week, was going to pay the slightest attention to the fate of 50 year-old Mohammad Rahim, a farmer from Kandahar Province in southern Afghanistan? Four of his children — two sons and two daughters, all between four and 12 years old — were killed in a “NATO” (undoubtedly American) airstrike, while working in their fields. In addition, an eight-year-old daughter of his was “badly wounded.” Whether Rahim himself was killed is unclear from the modest reports we have of the “incident.”
19. Ianupnorth 19

    7 December 2011 at 1:01 pm

    You know the world has finally gone mad when Fox News labels Kermit the Frog as a communist!
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/shortcuts/2011/dec/06/muppet-movies-communist-plots-revealed
    • Tiger Mountain 19.1

      7 December 2011 at 1:12 pm

      Komrade Kermit! Fox, they don’t like it up’em.
20. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 20

    7 December 2011 at 2:13 pm

    All you lefties who voted for Winsome getting a nice warm feeling inside?

    http://www.starcanterbury.co.nz/news/mp-wants-taxi-drivers-armed/1200350/
    • felix 20.1

      7 December 2011 at 2:16 pm

      Why?

      You worried that your mate John Key is going to listen to that idiot or something?
      • Tiger Mountain 20.1.1

        7 December 2011 at 2:26 pm

        Shooter toting cabbies and liquor store owners–ACToids, what say you? The USA, where you seem to get many of the National/ACT policies enshrines the ‘right’ to bear arms.
21. joe90 21

    7 December 2011 at 2:55 pm

    Earlier this week Strontium tainted water was released into the ocean and yesterday it was reported that Cesium has been detected in infant milk powder.

    Meiji said it is unsure exactly how the cesium got into the powdered milk, but it suspects radioactive substances emitted from the Fukushima accident may have been the source. A company spokesman told Reuters hot air used in the drying process may have contained cesium
22. tsmithfield 22

    7 December 2011 at 3:25 pm

    Hmmm… It looks like ex-Labour voters helped vote this guy in.. Nice.
    • chris73 22.1

      7 December 2011 at 3:44 pm

      Be careful what you wish…
      • Colonial Viper 22.1.1

        7 December 2011 at 3:56 pm

        Thank you John Key for maximising Winston’s airtime during the run up to election day!!!
      • McFlock 22.1.2

        7 December 2011 at 4:00 pm

        lol – “Walther PPK”!
         
        Obviously someone’s been watching the James Bond season on TV1. I’m surprised he doesn’t demand taxis have flip-up bulletproof screens and knockout gas for when passengers get a bit frisky. 🙂
23. chris73 23

    7 December 2011 at 3:39 pm

    So how come no ones saying anything about the strikes at the POA?
    • McFlock 23.1

      7 December 2011 at 4:02 pm

      How come you’re not mentioning the lockout?
      • chris73 23.1.1

        7 December 2011 at 4:16 pm

        For some strange reason I thought strike action might have got some sort of a reaction on a left-wing political blog
        • McFlock 23.1.1.1

          7 December 2011 at 4:25 pm

          Well, it’s come up in comments – if you want a post, why not write it yourself?
24. Tiger Mountain 24

    7 December 2011 at 3:42 pm

    ts, see my comment 20.1.1. How can ‘hang ’em high’ National or at the very least, ACT supporters, object to Prossers call to arms? Libertarian surely. Or is the point you are making just to have a snark at certain voters for unexpected consequences of voting Winston without being properly acquainted with the NZ1 list.
    • tsmithfield 24.1

      7 December 2011 at 4:30 pm

      I just think its kind of sad that many former Labour voters hate the party so much that they’d prefer to vote for a party that is fronted by a proven liar and includes at least one right-wing extremist as one of its MPs.
      • McFlock 24.1.1

        7 December 2011 at 4:34 pm

        Yeah – I hate it when people go from Labour to National, too.
25. Jackal 25

    7 December 2011 at 4:02 pm

    John Key dyscalculia

    Let’s see if John Keys claim that an increase of £7 to the APD is “four or five times the cost of offsetting the carbon emissions produced” is true?
    • Chris 25.1

      7 December 2011 at 6:36 pm

      He obviously said that the tax itself is set at 4-5 times the offsetting the carbon emissions, not just the increase part.
26. McFlock 26

    7 December 2011 at 4:03 pm

    No doubt this will be National’s Brighter Future in a few years…
    • Ianupnorth 26.1

      7 December 2011 at 4:18 pm

      Quite possibly, everything seems to be user pay – and then they take their 15% GST on my rates too! But what’s the betting that business won’t have any charge?
27. Herodotus 27

    7 December 2011 at 5:18 pm

    Soon 100% Pure will represent Travel to NZ for 100% exotic flora and fauna experience
    hate to think of how exposed the likes of Kapiti, Codfish, Little Barrier will be. It will be left up to the organisations like friends of Tititiri, Forest and Bird to save our uniqueness. Pity our environment is not worth spending a few $$. Extinction is forever 🙁
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10771535
28. randal 28

    7 December 2011 at 8:30 pm

    I prefer extirpation of invasive species a priotity.
    the gubmint commends it.
    twang.
29. lprent 29

    7 December 2011 at 8:49 pm

    My freeview is down in Grey Lynn. Anyone else….

    Analogue 4:3 urrgh…
    • lprent 29.1

      7 December 2011 at 8:50 pm

      Back again.

      Was out for quite a while..
30. Puddleglum 30

    7 December 2011 at 10:43 pm

    I don’t think Kate Wilkinson actually understands what it is to be a Minister of Conservation.

    Slash and burn (of jobs and species) didn’t use to be part of the job description. 
    • vto 30.1

      7 December 2011 at 11:03 pm

      It shits me puddle. Shrink the Dept of Conservation and expand the Dept of Mines and Irrigation. Says it all. Says it all. Says it all.

      And what of Pike River? Is it not exactly as was expected – deadly criminal negligence by corporate and regulatory and operational individuals?

      What a fucked up case. The most ever in NZ history I would postulate.

      so sad

      edit: and South Canterbury Finance… NZ is scraping its bottom on the bottom…
    • Colonial Viper 30.2

      7 December 2011 at 11:08 pm

      Sort of like the Minister for Social Welfare.

      Or the Minister for Education.

      The sad irony.
31. Colonial Viper 31

    7 December 2011 at 11:57 pm

    Southern Cross Insurance Wants Government Handouts

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/property/news/article.cfm?c_id=8&objectid=10771374

    Fucking typical, lets nick the money out of the public health system eh.
    • Draco T Bastard 31.1

      8 December 2011 at 12:37 am

      Just proves the inability of private healthcare to function without government handouts and regulations that benefit them. We need to be ramming this down Acts throat as it’s proof that the preferred economic theories are delusional.
    • rosy 31.2

      8 December 2011 at 1:07 am

      The difficult economic conditions of recent years have already had an impact. The number of New Zealanders with health insurance cover decreased by nearly 25,000 or 1.8 per cent in the year to June

      It seems to me that many healthy people simply can’t afford private medical insurance and those that have high medical needs can’t afford not to have it. The next thing is a greater loss of consultants who make most of their money in private health. A good proportion won’t work more hours in public health – they’ll be off overseas.

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