Open Mike 08/02/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 8th, 2018 - 223 comments
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223 comments on “Open Mike 08/02/2018 ”

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  1. Ed 1
    8 February 2018 at 6:39 am

    An article by Soper about National’s obsession with and hatred of Winston.
    Soper has now written at least two articles critical of English.
    As a true Nat boy, I wonder which right clique he supports

    “Their elephant’s Winston Peters and they should be discussing why they failed to convince him that running the show is their natural habitat.
    That’s part of their problem of course, they like Hillary Clinton, couldn’t see themselves losing, it wasn’t part of their thinking.

    …….To do that though surely they’ll have to understand what went wrong and there are so many obvious things that they’d do well to consider.
    For starters they set out to destroy the very man they had to sit down with to try and do business with.
    English urged voters to cut out the middle man, during the campaign, and said he was a difficult character to deal with.’

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11990008

  2. Eco Maori 2
    8 February 2018 at 6:47 am

    Good morning breakfast people I say it ok to us a phone were ever you want I’ve spent 1hour at a jym .But I would ban them when one has children as the mokos are missing out on quality family time because there mum’s and dad’s have there faces stuck in there phones I rub my children out because of this Tec effect. 4 of my mokos have thrown parents phones In the toilet when they were in there terrible TWO’s I laughed when I was told and said to there parents put the phone down and pay more attention to my mokos. Lucky they always have phone insurance. Ka kite ano

    • Eco Maori 2.1
      8 February 2018 at 7:37 am

      Good story on kiwi saver there needs to be a inquiry into this industry as shonky would change the regulation to line his pocket and his m8 pocket at the expense of the PEOPLE. Most people don’t pay attention to there kiwis saver so there saving end up in a default fund who knows what these players do with it then. One can get %40 more by learning how the fund works and when the time is right move it into high risk high return fund that could be 10 of thousands more at retirement.

      The interview on our power industries was excellent to ECO MAORI all the organization of our electricity industry that are not floated on shonkys m8 stock exchange are highly regulated. This leaves the companies that are floated on the stock exchange un regulated .This situation lets these companies be in a situation to cream ally the profits at the expence of the regulated lines companies ETC and THE PEOPLE. We wonder why our transmissions network needed to have huge investments by the Government the profits are all flowing up to the 1% .
      Now it’s STUPID NOT TO HAVE POLICIES that make sure that all OUR transmission lines have NO TREES or any thing that could compermise OUR vital supply of eletrisity to the PEOPLE .This ignorance is costing NZ millions of dallors having the ambulance at the bottom of the hill once again. WTF come on let’s clean this mess up .Sorry
      Ka kite ano

      • Eco Maori 2.1.1
        8 February 2018 at 8:02 am

        No fertility problems with ECO MAORI offspring my problem is getting them to slow down lol but I feel for all the people in a position were the opposite is the fact of there lives .Ka kite ano P.S. yes Jack I have the same problem of people recording me and my Whano on there phones it a phenomenon that goes with FAME some one should invent a device that jams any devices within 50 mtrs I would give one to my mokos so they will get more quality time lol

        Ka pai

  3. Ed 3
    8 February 2018 at 6:51 am

    You can oppose factory farming because it is smelly.

    And the farm is certainly big.There will be over 1 million sentient beings existing inside it.

    And it will be ugly on the outside. Large Industrial buildings are not usually attractive with a rural backdrop.

    There is a much bigger reason to oppose Tegels factory farming plan.

    Animal cruelty.
    Because the real ugliness will be on the inside of that building.
    Hidden from sight.
    I bet you Tegel won’t be building their factory with glass walls.
    Because if they did, people would not buy their chicken.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11989880

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSas705XDN4

    • Anon 3.1
      8 February 2018 at 8:10 am

      Can we just legally force the meat industry to be humane* already? I like eating chicken :(.

      (*no, I don’t consider slaughter inhumane simply because it’s taking life.)

      • Puckish Rogue 3.1.1
        8 February 2018 at 8:44 am

        For the last few years I’ve only bought free range chicken, pork and eggs, its a little more expensive but I’ve noticed that there are more free range eggs available and a greater selection of free range meat at the supermarket

        If more people buy free range then there’ll be less battery farming going on, hopefully

        • JohnSelway 3.1.1.1
          8 February 2018 at 9:18 am

          I find free range tastes better – in particular the bacon. Maybe psychosomatic/placebo but that’s my opinion

          • Puckish Rogue 3.1.1.1.1
            8 February 2018 at 9:23 am

            Yeah I think theres a whole (free :-)) range of reasons to buy free range, taste, morally etc etc

            I do think the free range bacon frys up better and shrinks less, maybe less water?

            • Doogs 3.1.1.1.1.1
              8 February 2018 at 9:35 am

              How nice of all you lovely people to be able to afford the choice of free range or organically farmed, an option not on the agenda of probably three quarters of the population.

              You are, of course, right but hell’s bells stop talking about it as if it is a real option for most.

              This tends to be the problem thinking of those who are blind to the bleeding obvious – there is no real equity or even equality in this country. However, the born to rule don’t or won’t understand that.

              • weka …
                8 February 2018 at 9:52 am

                True, however I also think that for people that can afford it, buying only free range can be a political act.

                (whether what one is buying is actually free range is another matter).

              • JohnSelway …
                8 February 2018 at 9:52 am

                Yes it is more expensive so I reduce my consumption. If I am going to eat pig at all I will only buy free range and budget accordingly.

              • Puckish Rogue …
                8 February 2018 at 9:55 am

                Don’t worry about Doogs you’ll never be hungry when you’ve got that massive chip on your shoulder

                I wasn’t saying its an option for everyone, I’m saying its what I do but heres a song that might help you feel better

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vTomEuuIZA

                • Doogs …
                  8 February 2018 at 11:57 am

                  It’s just that my concept base seems to be a lot wider than yours, oh comfortable one.

                • AB …
                  8 February 2018 at 11:58 am

                  Interesting.
                  Doogs makes a completely uncontroversial observation – that many people can’t afford organic/free range food – and is accused of having “a chip on his shoulder”.
                  Doogs’ concern about this inequality is then mocked by likening it to a kids’ song about free stuff popping out of the ground or growing on trees. The implication being that any dissatisfaction with the way things are is just childish fantasy.
                  Nasty RWNJ stuff.

                  • Puckish Rogue …
                    8 February 2018 at 3:53 pm

                    “How nice of all you lovely people to be able to afford the choice of free range or organically farmed, an option not on the agenda of probably three quarters of the population.”

                    I personally found that this was quite condescending

                    “You are, of course, right but hell’s bells stop talking about it as if it is a real option for most.”

                    I wasn’t saying its an option for most (even though it is) I was saying what I do and making the observation that if more people did as well then the prices for free range will probably come down over time

                    “This tends to be the problem thinking of those who are blind to the bleeding obvious – there is no real equity or even equality in this country. However, the born to rule don’t or won’t understand that.”

                    I acknowledged that some can’t afford it but I can (for which I do not and will not apologise) and for those who also can afford it they should eat free range as well

                    So yeah I mocked Doog because I get a bit bloody sick and tired of the perpetually outraged actively looking for things to be outraged about

                    But for what its worth I’ve given Doog something else to be outraged about so Doogs probably happy

                    • Doogs …
                      8 February 2018 at 7:46 pm

                      I’m afraid you’re right PR – about one thing – I am perpetually outraged – about one thing – the fucking last 9 years of pretend government.

                      We gave them a go for 3 years, and they did nothing and lied.

                      We gave them another go, for another 3 years . . . and guess what?

                      Then they sleep-walked into another 3 years thanks to John boy the flexible man who had an opinion about everything and stood for nothing in particular.

                      Yep, you’re right, I am purple with incandescence about what that useless lying bunch did to this country for 9 long years.

                      Otherwise, I’m pretty relaxed and quite a nice bloke . . . really.

              • savenz …
                8 February 2018 at 10:44 am

                It’s not just a cost issue. Plenty of people in poverty smoke tobacco even though it is extremely expensive, because they are addicted. I don’t buy the idea we have to be cruel for cost purposes. People have priorities and they run their lives to what makes them feel the best or if they don’t know any different.

                I’d like bad products (like soft drinks for example) to be taxed more as they are less expensive than bottled water in many cases.

                Cheap eggs and chicken with antibiotics and growth hormones as well as inhumane living conditions are like soft drink, they are so bad they have to make them cheap or else nobody would buy them.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  8 February 2018 at 11:10 am

                  I’d like bad products (like soft drinks for example) to be taxed more as they are less expensive than bottled water in many cases.

                  True but, considering the damage that it does to the environment, should bottled water be available at all?

                  • savenz …
                    8 February 2018 at 11:57 am

                    Yep, the rise of bottled water – another pollutant. Yep good for emergencies like floods but yes agree a problem in itself and should not be ‘the better’ choice than tap water.

                    I guess my point is, why should poorer people be expected to buy worse and less healthy products and the poor buying them blamed for the unhealthy or cruel products existence and prosperity.

                    If the government really wanted the poor to have cheap eggs how about co operatives in deprived places operating as an alternative.

                    It’s just another way for poor business practise and ‘the markets’ to oppress people (and animals) and the environment when there is plenty of other alternatives.

        • Keepcalmcarryon 3.1.1.2
          8 February 2018 at 9:20 am

          The free range movement is well intended, yet there are some problems:
          1) intensively farmed chickens can be healthier ( parasites etc)
          2) free range isn’t necessarily, laws around labelling/ claims should be better
          This is not intended as a defence of the industry.
          3) Unfortunately too at our house we shop on price and don’t have ability to choose the more expensive free range option as many of us in this low wage economy must.

          The illusion of choice is relative to the size of your wallet ( wage and union busting laws) and the handful of corporations who control our food.

          • Puckish Rogue 3.1.1.2.1
            8 February 2018 at 9:25 am

            3) Unfortunately too at our house we shop on price and don’t have ability to choose the more expensive free range option as many of us in this low wage economy must.

            Yeah I accept some can’t always go the free range route but, maybe, if most farms go free range then the free range prices will drop, never drop as low as battery farming but it might help

          • Doogs 3.1.1.2.2
            8 February 2018 at 9:41 am

            +100 – to keepcalm not PR

          • adam 3.1.1.2.3
            8 February 2018 at 10:37 am

            Free range chicken, you can use more. In economic terms, buying a free range chicken makes more sense Keepcalmcarryon. Not only do you get healthy liver – the bones are better for stock and soup.

            Seeing at this time of year soup is really not on the cards, as stock bones, free range is way better. One chicken will get you a good stock, whereas for budget chickens it can be two, three, or more to get a good stock.

          • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.2.4
            8 February 2018 at 11:13 am

            1. [Citation Needed]
            2. True. There are many people who like the extra profits but not the extra work. Another great example of the profit motive bringing about poor outcomes.
            3. That is true for the majority of people.

            The illusion of choice is relative to the size of your wallet ( wage and union busting laws) and the handful of corporations who control our food.

            QFT

            • Keepcalmcarryon 3.1.1.2.4.1
              8 February 2018 at 11:54 am

              Here you go DTB re factory confined hens ( at least sometimes) showing better health outcomes.
              https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/135594.php , quality of life must come in to it too and surely that is better where hens can get outside.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                8 February 2018 at 2:33 pm

                You should probably read the conclusion:

                The authors emphasize that, because of the change in housing systems that occurred between 2001 and 2004, many of the farmers caring for these flocks lacked the experience and knowledge that would have prevented the higher mortality and disease rates. According to Fossum, “birds kept in indoor litter-based and free-range housing are more prone to disease but measures can be taken to counter this.” Fossum adds,“the health of Swedish laying hens kept in these systems has improved as the farmers have become more experienced in managing the new housing systems.”

                My bold.

                • Keepcalmcarryon …
                  8 February 2018 at 3:20 pm

                  For sure, the point is there have been some health benefits noted to caging birds if we are examining all the facts. Note the conclusion does not say things have improved to the point of equivalence.
                  Again, not defending the industry, our handful of chooks get to scratch around outside, but we should keep both eyes open eh

        • Keepcalmcarryon 3.1.1.3
          8 February 2018 at 9:29 am

          Actually looks like the farm under discussion IS considered freerange as birds have access to outside ( whatever that means).
          Also 32 jobs, is this all bad Ed (yes you don’t agree with any farming)?

        • James 3.1.1.5
          8 February 2018 at 10:59 am

          There is no making ed happy on this matter. Free range or not he only accepts the “vegan way”.

          I raise and have home kill my own beef and lamb – yet ed still finds this disgusting and went on about it – despite the animals being well treated and cared for.

          If you like the nicer taste of free range – you will love home kill. It taste soooo much better again.

      • Ed 3.1.2
        8 February 2018 at 5:21 pm

        Yes we could force them to be humane.
        And part of this would be to control the language used.
        I note below that many people still think that ‘free range’ chickens mean cruelty free chickens.
        You don’t really have to do much to get the label free range in New Zealand.
        You certainly don’t need to care about their welfare.

        The only requirements free-range farmers must meet are set out in the code of welfare for layer hens, developed under the Animal Welfare Act. The code states hens should have access to an outdoor range area.

        Access can be a small hole at the end of a very large barn.

        https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/free-range-eggs

        What’s Wrong with Free-Range?
        Commercial free range farms are often large-scale operations involving many thousands of animals. Due to the sheer scale of production, the welfare and individual treatment of the animals is compromised. The animals, especially chickens, are kept in unnaturally large groups that can cause stress and fighting. Free range animals are still killed at a very young age and suffer trauma both on the journey to the slaughterhouse and during the killing process.

        https://www.safe.org.nz/issue/free-range

        For many of us the term ‘free-range’ means that chickens are raised in much the same manner as you would imagine if you were to raise your own chickens at home (much like the two images above). Access to large fields roaming about free looking for worms amongst the grass. Well you find that this association is almost entirely untrue, despite what pictures on egg cartons and chicken wrappers will indicate. This is for the very simple reason of economics. Large scale, cheap eggs and chicken even if it is free-range needs to adhere to certain constraints of economics which revolve around the cost of land and the cost of chicken feed.

        https://roarfood.co.nz/blog/articles/features/buying-free-range-chicken-and-eggs

  4. UncookedSelachimorpha 4
    8 February 2018 at 7:14 am

    Developer brings in 200 temporary Chinese workers to construct luxury hotel

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/349897/200-chinese-tradies-to-complete-akl-hotel

    I think this is really bad. They say they can’t get enough local workers and that the imports will be paid the “NZ market rate”. But of course this is directly suppressing nz wages, because the local rate is obviously too low because it won’t attract enough workers.

    Why are we developing things like this hotel again? Neoliberals only support markets when they can be used to transfer wealth from the poor to the rich – otherwise they want to intervene.

    • Ed 4.1
      8 February 2018 at 7:26 am

      New Zealand has become a slave state.
      Thanks Roger Douglas, Ruth Richardson and John Key.
      We know why you were given your knighthoods.
      Jail for treason would be a more fitting prize.

      • BM 4.1.1
        8 February 2018 at 8:40 am

        Labour is in charge now you ding-bat, Ardern’s the one who’s allowing this to happen.

        • Doogs 4.1.1.1
          8 February 2018 at 9:27 am

          Look BM, things laid down by Douglas et al have been so fundamental and life changing that it will in fact take decades to undo them. Their policies have put tentacles into so many places and affected so many aspects of society that it will take many doses of worm tablets to clean out the parasites from the gut of our nation. Remember also that we, as part of the world fabric, are also inter-twined with cancerous elements of other nations.

          This government has had 3 months to begin the process of reversing 30 years of harm.

          Give. Them. A. Chance!!!

          • BM 4.1.1.1.1
            8 February 2018 at 10:30 am

            FTA with China, she won’t be changing anything, especially with Clarkula pulling all the strings.

            If anything I’m expecting to see a massive increase in Chinese workers coming to NZ to build houses and apartment blocks.

            How will that make you feel, thousands upon thousands of Chinese workers flooding into the country keeping locals out of work and it will be done under a Labour government!

            • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.1.1.1
              8 February 2018 at 11:21 am

              especially with Clarkula pulling all the strings.

              If I was a moderator repeating that lie and that abuse would get you banned.

              How will that make you feel, thousands upon thousands of Chinese workers flooding into the country keeping locals out of work and it will be done under a Labour government!

              Unfortunately, it wouldn’t surprise me. I’ll continue to vote Green and, hopefully, many others will also lose their fanboi admiration of Labour and vote Green.

              • cleangreen …
                8 February 2018 at 1:23 pm

                100% Draco

                BM is a long bad mouthed individual that is toxic to fairness, and civility.

            • Doogs 4.1.1.1.1.2
              8 February 2018 at 12:07 pm

              That wasn’t my point, and you know it.

              No – I wouldn’t like that to happen, but in fact they are already talking about 200 Chinese workers coming in to finish a large building. Bad move.

              However, my statement about it taking a long time to fix deep-seated and systemic problems still stands. It will likely take at least as long as the Key/English tribe were in power to even make a dent in the edifice.

              To answer your thing about the Chinese workers – it will take a large, complex and determined gear-up to provide training of our own resident workers to obviate the imbalance in the work force. That takes time, among other things.

              I say again – give them a chance!

            • mikes 4.1.1.1.1.3
              8 February 2018 at 2:07 pm

              Yea that’s one of the problems with these so called free trade agreements, it isn’t a level playing field. For example the average wage in China is $3 an hour so how can any NZ company possibly compete? There should be allowances within the FTA’s for these sorts of disparities I’m all for free trade if it’s fair free trade.

              • savenz …
                8 February 2018 at 2:23 pm

                Yep it seems our government loves/fears China so much but I’m less sure that the Kiwi public wants NZ to be part of Asia with a $3 an hour, factory farmed workers, extreme pollution, corruption and no democracy. So why are we still going in that direction?

          • Ed 4.1.1.1.2
            8 February 2018 at 10:50 am

            Spot on

          • mikes 4.1.1.1.3
            8 February 2018 at 2:03 pm

            Not gonna happen Doogs. This government are globalists just like Douglas and his treacherous mates.

            • Doogs 4.1.1.1.3.1
              8 February 2018 at 7:53 pm

              What’s not gonna happen mikes? They won’t be given a chance?
              Oh yes they will. How many followers they have in November 2020 will depend entirely on how they handle it. And I for one am prepared to give them space and rope to operate in exactly the way they intend and have started with already.

        • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.1.1.2
          8 February 2018 at 10:10 am

          Agree, BM, but also with Doogs’ comment.

        • Honki 4.1.1.3
          8 February 2018 at 10:23 am

          yeah right – she can undo 40 years in 100 days.

        • Draco T Bastard 4.1.1.4
          8 February 2018 at 11:17 am

          These laws were set up previously nd not just by National governments either. This government hasn’t had time to change them yet.

          Admittedly, I’d be surprised if they did.

      • mikes 4.1.2
        8 February 2018 at 2:00 pm

        This must be one of the first times i’ve agreed with you Ed…yay!… Roger Douglas and his cronies should have been charged with treason. There’s probably a reason the Labour party abolished the death penalty for treason in 1989.

        (Not that i agree with the death penalty, although there’s always an exception)

    • Stuart Munro 4.2
      8 February 2018 at 7:31 am

      I feel there should be a limit on temporary exemptions to NZ labour laws. If you bring in a technician for a few days work perhaps that can be controlled by the rules of where you hired him. But if he’s here for longer than that his employer should meet NZ minimums in terms of wages and conditions.

      • McFlock 4.2.1
        8 February 2018 at 11:53 am

        Should meet the industry-wide salaries they’re going to calculate

      • mpledger 4.2.2
        8 February 2018 at 3:50 pm

        Everyone keeps calling them tradies but does anyone actually know if these people are actually certified in any way?

    • Ad 4.3
      8 February 2018 at 8:08 am

      At 4.5% headline unemployment and falling, people with any specialist skills in the construction industry are working about as much as they can.

      Definitely need more specialist construction staff, but they aren’t trained, and there are not even enough coming through the tertiary education centres.

      There are multiple five star hotels in Auckland and Queenstown either underway now or consented and ready to go. Much of this is leading up to APEC and Americas Cup, but we’ve had a five-star room shortage for a while now.

      So in that absence we have to go and get them from overseas.

      • Stuart Munro 4.3.1
        8 February 2018 at 8:54 am

        Make the company pay NZ wages and accommodation and see if he still wants to pay the airfares.

        Better yet charge him with racism. No NZ hires? None at all? That would be because he never even tried to hire New Zealanders.

        • Ad 4.3.1.1
          8 February 2018 at 9:40 am

          They do.

          There are none left, unless you steal them from another company. Sometimes they do that. Other times it’s faster just to wholesale import.

          There’s no racism in it.

          If you are asking me the broader question: why aren’t there enough highly skilled stonemasons trained up and ready to go here, I would say after the earthquakes there is no excuse for it. So yes, this is a National-caused capacity problem.

          Plus weak unions from anti-union legislation that has kept wages low while productivity in construction continues to be high. Again, caused by National.

          • andrew murray 4.3.1.1.1
            8 February 2018 at 9:54 am

            The trouble with your rational assessment Ad is that again, it is only the discarded sector of the population- the untrained unemployed and under-employed- that must suffer the burden of 30years of cheaper options. let industry and its various hangers-on suffer the consequences of their actions over this same 30 years.

            ‘So in that absence’- they can reflect on the failure of their plan to undermine and supplant appropriate local trades training with cheap imported labour.

          • Draco T Bastard 4.3.1.1.2
            8 February 2018 at 11:24 am

            There are none left, unless you steal them from another company.

            Contrary to what you capitalists believe, the workers don’t actually belong to the company.

            Other times it’s faster just to wholesale import.

            And it’s always cheaper as it won’t raise wages.

            Also fails to train up people in NZ with skills.

          • Stuart Munro 4.3.1.1.3
            8 February 2018 at 1:30 pm

            “There are none left”

            Impose a requirement of 5% of the workforce and the employer would fill that by lunchtime. Make it 10% and they’d have them by tomorrow.

            You’ve been listening to employer lies so long you’re starting to believe them.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 4.3.1.1.4
            8 February 2018 at 5:26 pm

            Fuck the developers. Where were they when successive governments destroyed the institutions that would have prevented this situation occurring in the first place?

            The market forces have come home to roost.

      • savenz 4.3.2
        8 February 2018 at 10:22 am

        That’s because of the move to tertiary training with expensive courses rather than the on the job training apprentices for trades people. Everyone’s been told they need to be an accountant or lawyer and get a degree in that.

        I’m all for having people qualified but whatever the hell they came up with, migrant workers and some hybrid apprentice/training scheme, clearly isn’t working.

        And having so many migrants coming in then takes away the opportunities for local people to learn to do the work while keeping the wages and conditions suppressed which then leads to nobody wanting to go into that trade.

        Hey in the old days, there were plenty of houses and plenty of builders. Under the last 30 years all that has changed and I’m not sure we are better off with the leaky buildings and constant remedial work we have under the new system of all these ‘trained’ overseas workers and tradies with student loans.

        The overseas visas and residencies are a rout for developers to make more money and we now know that some migrants are paying the employer (often unwillingly and certainly outside of NZ law) to get into NZ not the other way around. It’s a scam.

        • savenz 4.3.2.1
          8 February 2018 at 10:34 am

          Also don’t worry if anything goes wrong in that luxury hotel, guess what, the ratepayers will pay for the remedial work due to the council signing it off. Seen it again and again. The developers will be working next door under a different name to avoid liability.

        • Draco T Bastard 4.3.2.2
          8 February 2018 at 11:29 am

          Recall that, according to Bill English, having trained people in NZ is less important than having people working at McDs.

          This is companies and government fighting against the market.

        • McFlock 4.3.2.3
          8 February 2018 at 12:06 pm

          The education thing is a classic example of why education should be free. Back in the day, professional courses had much more restricted entry. Yes, lawyers and doctors made more cash, but they also paid higher taxes.

          Snobbery over the trades was part of the problem, too, but also I suspect that a lot of trades are now more technical – navvies don’t dig trenches, they operate heavy machinery. Plumbers don’t just do pipes and brazing, they use air compressors and cameras and pump trucks. Builders use laser levels and nailguns. Mechanics work around engine management computer systems.

          But in the 1990s “bums on seats” became the norm for education and things became tougher for people, so there was a rush to the better-paying and newly opened up “professions”.

          As a mate of mine put it, when his local factory closed down he was offered relocation and training to work in another factory. He turned it down to get an education.

          Ten years later, he was getting his masters (which ain’t worth what it used to be) and his mate who took the forklift job had earned a few hundred thousand more than he had. Fortunately, he took the education for it’s own sake, but it’s interesting how time change.

          Lots of people “took a chance” to raise themselves up – the flipside is that if you lose the bet, you don’t get an inspirational movie made about you. And the house always wins

        • Doogs 4.3.2.4
          8 February 2018 at 12:10 pm

          Spot on savenz.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.3.3
        8 February 2018 at 10:57 am

        I accept the correct labour might not be immediately available locally, but if causing delay to this project and others is what is needed to create pressure to lift wages and investment in training in NZ, then that is what should happen.

        The problem with low training and wages in nz is hugely important.

    • Gabby 4.4
      8 February 2018 at 8:45 am

      I wonder if they’ll be ‘pooling their wages’ to pay for their accommodation and ‘other expenses’.

    • veutoviper 4.5
      8 February 2018 at 10:09 am

      Initial report on Morning Report at 6.10am
      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018631112/200-chinese-workers-flown-in-to-build-auckland-hotel

      Ian Lees-Galloway, Minister of Workplace Relations and Immigration, was interviewed by Guyon Espiner later in the programme

      http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018631149/investment-in-skills-not-done-by-last-govt-lees-galloway

      While his reply included that investment in skills was not done by the previous government, he also said that he had asked for a urgent report from the appropriate ministries. It seems that the applications were being done as individual ones rather than a block one. Although a fairly light response, Lees-Galloway had contacted RNZ re their initial report of his own accord, rather than failing to front up.

      • savenz 4.5.1
        8 February 2018 at 10:48 am

        The first thing the government should do is to remove the overseas work permits and residency paths. Then guess what, everything will change. Wages will go up not just for Maori, Pakeha but also the 15% of migrants already here! Then the taxpayers will get more revenue and less money going out in top ups. Then training will start to happen as after throwing out all their toys, the developers, food outlets, petrol stations and farmers will knuckle down with local labour and get it done. Hey they might have to import Australians if worst comes to worst. But I doubt it.

      • alwyn 4.5.2
        8 February 2018 at 11:44 am

        There was a statement made by the MD of the firm Building Recruitment in this first interview at 6.10am that was removed from the repeat broadcast at 7.17am.
        He said that “The people letting us down most are the locals we employ. They’re the ones not turning up on jobs”.

        RNZ cut it out later in the program when they only played the first part of what was, after all, a very short clip (less than a minute).
        They also left it out of the report linked to at comment 4.
        That comment of the MD of course backs up the things that Bill English said he was being told about New Zealand workers.

        Am I being unduly paranoid when I think first of the probability that someone in the PMs Office, monitoring Morning Report, immediately rang the RNZ news people and demanded that this particular piece of the interview must not be repeated? It didn’t match the line that this Government are spinning. New Zealand workers are wonderful and only the evil Bill English is telling lies about them. Red Radio would of course oblige and the line will never be repeated on their news service.

        • savenz 4.5.2.1
          8 February 2018 at 1:50 pm

          The problem is they are both right. Loads of Kiwis have got terrible work practises and don’t get to work on time or take it seriously. But we used to have an excellent work reputation for Kiwi workers overseas, so what’s changed?

          In my view, the last 30 years and in particular the last decade have robbed people the chance to have continual work at decent wages. In addition decisions like 180,000 work permits a year have robbed locals the ability to start part time work at an early age (aka part time time work as teenagers or students). This has mean’t more and more Kiwi’s were never given opportunities and have not been able to understand the process of work. If they can be fired after 30 days, made redundant after 30 years with little compensation the relationship has become adversarial.

          Bring in cheap workers bribed by the cost of a residency and citizenship is making the situation worse. We are cannibalising our own work force and replacing it with one that is often less skilled and educated but more able to be exploited. Our productivity shows this is not a workable situation of thinking overseas labour will help us.

          It’s pretty much like asset sales but with labour. The government has sold out our local labour force saying that the market will decide, but then the wages money just goes overseas while the locals have to be paid to be unemployed, imprisioned, going through the courts, drug and alcohol rehab etc etc. It’s a VERY expensive option and social experiment and why everything needs to be looked at as a whole, not just individual silos.

          • OncewasTim 4.5.2.1.1
            8 February 2018 at 7:46 pm

            Couln’t agree more @savenz, alongside ur 7 and 8 comments on openmike 1/1/2018.
            The bullshit continues! I see it daily here with false promises being made by consultants that should be monitored properly by IAA.
            INZ AND ASSOCIATED agencies under MBIE have been no care no responsibility-whether thru under resourcing or whatever. BOTH the immigrant AND The Kiwi workforce have been royally ripped. The gNats had no long term plan other than cheap labour with churn to keep it all propped up. It is actually a matter of record. The case today of the Philipinos being ripped is the tip of the iceberg.
            The starting point is as you say in 4.5.1 above. We need a starting point AND for those wh’ve ALREADY been lied and cheated to and who are already here, for say 5,6,7 years, allow them to stay in order to pass on their skills and train Kiwi labour – many I know are anxious to do so in various sectors.
            I’m still of the view that MBIE has the wrong organisational culture to be involved in immigration matters…..’the business of immigration” takes little account of any other imperative than the economic.
            That’s one reason, as you suggest, things have become particularly bad over the past ten years.
            As I travel around atm, I’m gathering more and more info of immigrants having been shafted by the NZ experience over and above the many I met 18 months ago.
            People trafficking is not too strong a fescription, however they have cared to dress it up.!!!! AND at the expense of Kiwi labour and education standards. It’s been all about the money

  5. BM 5
    8 February 2018 at 7:39 am

    Out of nowhere, Finance Minister Grant Robertson has made a significant U-turn, reversing what seemed to be a core Labour position.

    After years of criticising National for a significant growth in Crown debt to more than $60 billion over the last decade, Robertson now seems to think the state of public debt is the best thing about the New Zealand economy.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/101238392/grant-robertsons-uturn-on-public-debt-hints-at-deeper-concerns-about-debt

    • faroutdude 5.1
      8 February 2018 at 8:10 am

      Yeah, this is the idiot that has just lifted rents by $50 per week low & mid income families so he can get a few 1000 more young people into Sociology 101 courses.
      This Govt will (if not already) go down as the most incompetent in NZ History.
      But babies, & feelz, & conversations, & “we care more”…

      • solkta 5.1.1
        8 February 2018 at 8:16 am

        I wish you were right. Everybody should do Sociology 101.

        • Puckish Rogue 5.1.1.1
          8 February 2018 at 8:38 am

          Whenever I hear someone mention Sociology 101 this springs to mind:

          https://i.pinimg.com/originals/82/a8/f8/82a8f8a5921b393eeee9ff666d46e66e.png

          • Doogs 5.1.1.1.1
            8 February 2018 at 9:39 am

            Sociology – the study of the development, structure, and functioning of human society, or the study of social problems.

            What’s wrong with that?

            • faroutdude 5.1.1.1.1.1
              8 February 2018 at 9:45 am

              Sociology a la NZ Tertiary Institutions – an uncritical (and unhinged) love of Socialism & Marxism conveniently leaving out the 100% failure rate, the 100’s of million of deaths due to murder or starvation.
              FIFY

              • Draco T Bastard …
                8 February 2018 at 11:33 am

                You’re delusional. Everything you’ve said so far is simply wrong.

                • alwyn …
                  8 February 2018 at 12:01 pm

                  You are quite right. There weren’t 100’s of millions of death due to murder and starvation.

                  In Russia under Stalin there were only about 3 million deaths by execution, in the Gulags and in forced resettlement. There were about 6 million died in the famines his policies produced.
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_deaths_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin

                  Mao was much worse of course. Estimates of the number of deaths in the 1959-1962 famine his policies caused were probably in the region of 45 million.

                  That only counts the 2 major figures of course. It doesn’t count minor figures like Pol Pot and his monsters for example.

                  Even so there were less than 100 million deaths so faroutdude is exaggerating, isn’t he? Nothing wrong with killing of less than 100 million people is there?

                    • Wei …
                      8 February 2018 at 8:44 pm

                      Actually Mao probably saved more lives than any other political figure in history – the most rapid and stunning mortality declines and consequential increases in life expectancy perhaps in world history happened in China under his watch.

                      Salient points as follows:

                      “Between 1950 and 1980, China experienced the most rapid sustained increase in life expectancy in documented global history.” https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2850698

                      From 1966 to 1976 (the years of the cultural revolution), life expectancy rose by over ten years, from 51 to 64 years! https://tinyurl.com/y9aa32qr

                      Other researchers point out: “Despite China’s relatively low level of economic development at the time and that a large part of the population still lived in poverty, China’s mortality decline was faster than many countries with similar or markedly higher socio-economic development levels. This together with the successful experience of some other countries, such as Sri Lanka and Costa Rica, were widely regarded as “routes to low mortality in poor countries” https://tinyurl.com/y8b9jqug

                      Dikotter (the source of your linked article), gets his 45 million kill count by simply calculating excess deaths over 10 per thousand – essentially the same as the advanced industrialized nations of the time – which is patently ridiculous. As the renowned famine expert Cormac O’Grada points out (emphases are mine) “much hinges on what ”normal” mortality rates are assumed, since the archives do not distinguish between normal and crisis mortality. The crude death rate in china in the wake of the revolution was probably about 25 per thousand. It is highly unlikely that the communists could have reduced it within less than a decade to the implausibly low 10 per thousand adopted here (p. 331). Had they done so, they would have ”saved” over 30 million lives in the interim! One can hardly have it both ways.” http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1728-4457.2011.00398.x/pdf

                    • Stuart Munro …
                      8 February 2018 at 8:55 pm

                      Thanks for that Wei – the ill-natured cherry picking of stats gets pretty thick here sometimes.

                  • reason …
                    8 February 2018 at 6:26 pm

                    Communism starving hundreds of millions ??

                    I think Your being dishonest Alwyn …. or is there another reason you leave out important story changing facts ???

                    Things like Scorched earth ecocide and Infrastructure destruction, war crimes and extermination policy practiced on your population, support and recruitment of Nazis for sabotage, proxy fighters, economic warfare, bombings, overt and covert warfare … and every other means of dirty tricks combined with constant state aggression …all these things things …. were used by ‘the free west’ against russian and chineese people.

                    Pol Pots millions of dead can go on the usa death ledger though … seeing as they armed and supported them … as a extra gift to the people of Cambodia from uncle sam … after years of bombing. Pol Pot is in the following video

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5rVD_TXrjo&t=4s

                    William Blum provides books worth of information and details that help get a better more truthful record of the past.

                    Korea: “The two sides had been clashing across the Parallel for several years. What happened on that fateful day in June could thus be regarded as no more than the escalation of an ongoing civil war.

                    The North Korean Government has claimed that in
                    1949 alone, the South Korean army or police perpetrated 2,617armed incursions into the North to carry out murder, kidnapping, pillage and arson for the purpose of causing
                    social disorder and unrest …”,

                    …. “A State Department official, Ambassador-at-large Philip C. Jessup, speaking in April 1950, put it this way: There is constant fighting between the South Korean Army and bands that infiltrate the country from the North. There are very real battles, involving perhaps one or two thousand men. When you go to this boundary, as I did … yo usee troop movements, fortifications, and prisoners of war. Seen in this context, the question of who fired the first shot on 25 June 1950 takes on a much reduced air of significance. ”

                    Chinas food growing conditions :” By 1949, United States aid to the Nationalists since the war amounted to almost$2 billion in cash and $1 billion worth of military hardware; 39 Nationalist army divisions had been trained and equipped.”
                    13
                    “Yet the Chiang dynasty was collapsing all around in bits and pieces. It had not been only the onslaught of Chiang’s communist foes, but the hostility of the Chinese people at large to his tyranny, his wanton cruelty, and the extraordinary corruption and decadence of his entire bureaucratic and social system.”

                    “American political and military leaders had no illusions about the
                    nature and quality of Chiang’s rule. The Nationalist forces, said General David Barr, head of the US Military Mission in China, were under “the world’s worst leadership”.
                    14
                    The Generalissimo, his cohorts and soldiers fled to the offshore island of Taiwan (Formosa). They had prepared their entry two years earlier by terrorizing the islanders into submission—a massacre which took the lives of as many as 28,000 people.
                    15
                    Prior to the Nationalists’ escape to the island, the US government entertained no doubts that Taiwan was a part of China.”

                    The actions to make Russians suffer have gone on the longest.

                    World War One did not end until 1920 for them .. British and usa forces invaded them, blockaded them, mined their harbours …. and fought against them, on the side of the czar … for the continuation of serfdom … which was much like slavery for the poor.

                    As bad as the russian ‘communist’ economy was …. and it was really bad in many ways when they abandoned it under Glasnost ….

                    The following right wing free market economic ‘reforms’ with its privatization of state assets … plunged tens of millions into abject poverty……. Living standards collapsed for most …. Mortality soared.

                    Poverty, corruption ….. and a criminal Oligarch class of Billionaires and Millionaires have grown.

                    Russia around 37 minute mark
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

                    • Wei …
                      8 February 2018 at 8:53 pm

                      Good post.

                      Mao is called a mass murderer because of an elevated mortality rate during the Great Leap Forward. But this is compared to the stunning decline in mortality otherwise achieved in the first decade of the PRC.

                      Anti-communist critics (most of them completely innumerate) forget to mention that the mortality rates during that 2 or 3 year period (around 25 to 30 per thousand per year) were in fact quite typical for other developing countries of the time, and were in fact lower than the mortality rates China had endured for decade after decade up to the success of the 1949 revolution.

                      The Maoist era was by and large was defined by a huge decline in mortality —-with a reversal during the years of the Great Leap Forward (caused by the tragic convergence of a number of factors —most of them out of the control of the Chinese communists, and none of them intended to result in deaths, much less so murder).

                • faroutdude …
                  8 February 2018 at 12:02 pm

                  You’ll have no trouble pointing out exactly which bits are wrong, and how, then.
                  Unless of course you are one of the fools who swallowed all this bullshit and parrot it out at every opportunity.
                  Oh, hang on – that’s exactly what you do…

                  • alwyn …
                    8 February 2018 at 1:54 pm

                    I don’t think he is going to answer you.
                    I can’t comment on whatever is taught in a Sociology course but I really don’t think he is going to try and defend the argument that it was only about one hundred rather than multiple hundreds

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      8 February 2018 at 2:18 pm

                      He’s probably just losing the will to live when considering Faroutdude’s ability to dump irrelevant bullshit onto a thread as though it were some kind of response to a person’s comment. And your own admission that you have no idea what’s taught in sociology papers hardly makes yours a persuasive endorsement of his bullshit.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    8 February 2018 at 2:25 pm

                    You’ll have no trouble pointing out exactly which bits are wrong, and how, then.

                    All of it was wrong.

                    Sociology doesn’t teach Marxism. It teaches about society and how people interact.

                    Modern economics doesn’t teach about the 100% failure rate of capitalism that’s caused even more deaths throughout history than can be counted.

                    BTW, what Mao and Stalin wasn’t socialist either. It wasn’t even communist for that matter. It was dictatorial which more closely resembles capitalism and the dictatorial actions of the owners.

              • Doogs …
                8 February 2018 at 12:13 pm

                ????? . . . . have you done the course then?

                • faroutdude …
                  8 February 2018 at 12:17 pm

                  Of course. Proud to have opened the eyes of the young and impressionable students to the bullshit being fed to them.

              • reason …
                8 February 2018 at 12:19 pm

                Your a liar far-out-in-the-middle-fool … a fact free idiot.

                Which I will quickly prove …. as you fail to produce any free market country … to match the socialist example I’m putting forward.

                We’ll ignore the capitalist free market mass starvation ….. inflicted by choice …. upon the people of Ireland and India …. killing millions.

                We’ll also ignore the reversal of human rights, mass murders, torture, rape and imprisonment …..all the dramatic declines of living standards for millions ….

                When Miltons free markets were inflicted by the barrel of a gun and destruction of democracy ….Resulting in the very worst of fascist police states… and vast suffering for the people…Over most of Latin America …. and many many other counties

                Instead I simply challenge you to put up or shut up…. in a direct comparison of real world statistics and facts….

                Or are you all piss and wind …. ??

                The socialist country and economy I’m using as an example …..

                “Is a country which went from one of the poorest nations in its continent into the richest nation….it also gained the highest Human Development Index, the lowest infant mortality and the highest life expectancy.”

                “Health care is [was] available to all citizens free of charge by the public sector.

                infant mortality rates had decreased from 105 per 1000 live births in 1970 to an Infant mortality rate of 14.0

                Confirmed by the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), undernourishment was less than 5 %,

                Took literacy from 25% up to 87% with 25% going on and earning university degrees.

                University education was free.

                Gross primary school enrolment ratio was 97% for boys and 97% for girls (2009) .
                (see UNESCO tables

                The pupil teacher ratio in primary schools was of the order of 17 (1983 UNESCO data)

                It Went from a country beset with cholera and unsafe water problems …. to a very low percentage of people without access to safe water (3 percent), health services (0 percent) and sanitation (2 percent)

                With regard to Women’s Rights, World Bank data point to significant achievements, “In a relative short period of time … passed in 1970 was an equal pay for equal work law… In secondary and tertiary education, girls outnumbered boys by 10%.” (World Bank Country Brief,

                From the early 1980’s until 2003 it was placed under crippling sanctions by the US and UN.

                The Government [was] substantially increasing the development budget for health services.

                Its name is Libya ….. its socialist achievements as recorded by WHO, world bank , the UN etc, show a country which had the greatest improvements for its people in the shortest period of time ….

                I hope you attempt to compete and produce a example faroutdud …. before running off and changing your user name yet again…. like the sad arsed serial loser you present yourself as on the internet …

                I do not mind if you get some help, from a better rw troll than your own sorry self…. as your always faroutclassed

                • Brigid …
                  8 February 2018 at 4:42 pm

                  1000++

                  Similarly Syria, Cuba. In fact any country that has improved life overall for its citizens are those practicing socialism in one form or another.

              • Stuart Munro …
                8 February 2018 at 1:33 pm

                You don’t have a clue – more like Anthony Giddens, for what little he’s worth.

      • Pete 5.1.2
        8 February 2018 at 8:28 am

        A short time into their tenure and this Govt already down as the most incompetent in NZ History? I can understand pique and being pissed-off seeding anger and silliness but this is at Gold Medal level.

        • Psycho Milt 5.1.2.1
          8 February 2018 at 9:01 am

          You guys all seem very excited about this, but buggered if I can see anything even vaguely interesting in it.

        • faroutdude 5.1.2.2
          8 February 2018 at 12:06 pm

          The incompetence started at the Election of the Speaker, and it’s all gone downhill from there.
          But when you have the failed & discredited idiots from the last Labour Govt (Clarke, Cullen etc) pulling the strings it’s hardly surprising.

          • Stuart Munro 5.1.2.2.1
            8 February 2018 at 1:35 pm

            Does he require that ministers answer questions?

            If so he is infinitely better than that sleazy sack of complicity Carter.

      • Gabby 5.1.3
        8 February 2018 at 8:47 am

        Sounds like a pretty good deal for lawyers with big kids and rentals. There wouldn’t be too many of those in and around Parlyment though.

      • savenz 5.1.4
        8 February 2018 at 10:28 am

        Yep accountancy degrees are MUCH better, learn how to avoid taxes, become a day trader and you too like John Key can become PM and put in 0% taxes non resident no questions asked tax havens. What gift duty, what gift duty? gift duty gone quicker than Don Brash’s nuclear free moment so handy to move all that money around for money laundering purposes.

        Yep, we certainly need more accountants for society… and lawyers too of course! Social workers are for society and as Thatcher said, ‘Theres no such thing as society’ in the brave new world of the high worth sociopath.

    • Ad 5.2
      8 February 2018 at 8:11 am

      Partially agree with the opinion. He was a bit too quick off the mark to praise our public debt position.

      Would have been more balanced for the Minister of Finance to say that, while compared to overseas OECD countries our public position is fine, the private debt position is still grossly overreached, so there are always vulnerabilities to attend to …

      …. which get pretty stark when a major stockmarket shake occurs.

      • Bill 5.2.1
        8 February 2018 at 9:46 am

        Given that Hamish Rutherford is a happy disciple of neo-liberal economics, I’m not overly surprised that he casually threw the “evil” prospect of higher wages into the mix. Robertson seemed desperate to avoid that wee detail. By Robertson’s account, interest rate changes come out of no-where.

        It’s ye olde class war, and Robertson’s on the side of capital. That’s kind of all we need to know, realise or understand really.

        Levels of public debt are of little consequence except when understood through the lens of liberal economic orthodoxy. And it’s been what might be termed “30 odd years of criminality” that has seen successive governments transfer a more or less meaningless ledger book entry onto citizens where it assumes a potentially crippling reality.

        Now, about those wage increases “everyone” will be being denied because (it says in the bible of liberalism) higher wages will reduce profit, which will lead to profit seeking entities increasing prices to protect profit margins (inflation), which will entail (supposedly) independent central or reserve banks to bring in higher interest rates in a bid to maintain “economic stability”, meaning assets founded on debt lose value, which in turn means lower returns for those glorious investors as some of “their” future monies goes into servicing debt…and they will run, or cream it off the back of ‘selling short’ or whatever the casino speak is for making like a bandit off of others’ financial misfortune.

        I’m sure I’ve missed some steps/details, or not quite got some of that right. But the basics of the rationale are close enough.

        And you and me and who-ever else might be servicing any personal debt? Well, we’s fucked.

        But that’s okay. Importantly, we have to understand that’s okay. We need to understand and accept that those accruing money from playing with money; those who treat real things and people merely as “means to their profitable ends” – it’s important we keep them in the pink, because, y’know, we simply couldn’t survive in a world where they weren’t successful.

        Maybe one day a government will press medals and award them to dutiful citizens who have made appropriate sacrifices in times of need.

    • Carolyn_Nth 5.3
      8 February 2018 at 8:15 am

      Argh! Robertson – doing the neoliberals (and ultimately Nats’) work for them.

      We will never break from neoliberal chains while he is in charge of the finances and economy.

      • BM 5.3.1
        8 February 2018 at 8:33 am

        So much for a change government.

        The number of lies and backflips are off the charts, no wonder voters have such little faith in politicians.

        • Puckish Rogue 5.3.1.1
          8 February 2018 at 8:40 am

          Its almost like nothing much has changed 🙂

          • BM 5.3.1.1.1
            8 February 2018 at 8:50 am

            Yep, it’s so obvious Clark’s people are running the show, Ardern is just her mouthpiece, so much for the end of neo-liberalism, not that I’m complaining.

            If you can’t have National in charge, National lite is better than nothing

            Must be quite disappointing for left-wingers though, I can see the Greens doing quite well especially if they pick Davidson.

            • Psycho Milt 5.3.1.1.1.1
              8 February 2018 at 9:04 am

              It’s almost as though both major parties were based around centrist policies rather than wholesale upheaval. But whoah, hold on – that’s just crazy talk!

              • BM …
                8 February 2018 at 9:08 am

                That’s not the way Ardern was pitching it during and just after the election.

                You know, “this is a change government”, “Capitalism has failed”, etc

                • adam …
                  8 February 2018 at 10:45 am

                  Oh LOOK, a hate in.

                • Psycho Milt …
                  8 February 2018 at 11:02 am

                  Ardern is leading a change government, one that will and is already making good and useful changes to fix the crap work done by the last one. But it’s not a revolutionary government out to overthrow the liberal consensus and destroy capitalism (nice misleading “capitalism has failed” misquote there, by the way). For that reason, Robertson’s comments are unsurprising.

                  • Chuck …
                    8 February 2018 at 11:31 am

                    “(nice misleading “capitalism has failed” misquote there, by the way).”

                    I did hear Ardern say that as well, so just checked to make sure…

                    “Incoming prime minister Jacinda Ardern says capitalism has been a “blatant failure” in New Zealand when measured by child poverty.”

                    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11935456

                    BM did not misquote (other than paraphrasing blatant failure to failed).

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      8 February 2018 at 2:13 pm

                      Actual quote:

                      “If you have hundreds of thousands of children living in homes without enough to survive, that’s a blatant failure. What else could you describe it as?”

                      BM’s version of it:

                      “Capitalism has failed.”

                      Chuck: “BM did not misquote…”

                    • reason …
                      9 February 2018 at 11:36 pm

                      Chuck, Psycho Milt showed BM and yourself to be Billshitting …

                      But quoting The Herald …. a heavy weight member of ‘Dirty Politics’ … is like quoting a serial gossip monger.

                      The Herald, The Dom or David Farrar have not given up dirty politics …. they prove this by continual printing of ‘ The tax payers union ‘ .

                      The herald should be sold with a National party symbol on their mast head ….

                  • adam …
                    8 February 2018 at 5:10 pm

                    You can’t argue logic with a hate in Psycho Milt, that said – brave of you to try.

            • savenz 5.3.1.1.1.2
              8 February 2018 at 10:30 am

              Yes, we all know why you want Davidson in there for the Greens, BM.

              • BM …
                8 February 2018 at 10:36 am

                Which is what?

                • savenz …
                  8 February 2018 at 10:57 am

                  Because she will not increase popularity of the Greens for voters and therefore your beloved National party will prosper by default. Probably the right wingers have been polling whose worst for the Greens popularity.

                  • BM …
                    8 February 2018 at 11:06 am

                    Interesting I thought Davidson was the best candidate because she best reflected what the Green party membership would want in a leader.

                    Maori, Female, Activist, Feminist, SJW, she’s ticking all the green boxes.

                    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/73697102/i-come-from-a-long-line-of-stubborness-marama-davidson

                    The fact she will no doubt clash with Labour and NZ First is irrelevant, she’s there to represent Green voters not prop up the labour/NZ First government.

                    • savenz …
                      8 February 2018 at 2:00 pm

                      Maori, Female, Activist, Feminist, SJW, – yep so representative of society (sarcasm) – how many now living in NZ can identify with that – under 5% perhaps?

                      The Green Party was founded by Jeanette Fitzsimons, Rod Donald and Mike Ward… so the current idea of a narrow focus of identity politics and the cheerleading of that approach by right-wingers is not for the benefit of the Green Party survival but the survival of the National party.

                  • Chuck …
                    8 February 2018 at 12:00 pm

                    weka posted yesterday on what I think is a sensible analysis of where the Greens will (maybe) start to pick up votes again from here.

                    Which is to get back some of the support that deserted the Greens and went into Labour.

                    Then hope Labour picks off some of the current National support to compensate for votes that go to the Greens.

                    In theory a win/win for both the Greens and Labour.

                    Davidson appeal is perfect for those voters the Greens would like back from Labour.

                    • savenz …
                      8 February 2018 at 2:02 pm

                      @Chuck “Davidson appeal is perfect for those voters the Greens would like back from Labour”

                      yep I’m sure Chuck and BM would not want to advocate for anyone that might take disgruntled voters from National…

          • Stuart Munro 5.3.1.1.2
            8 February 2018 at 9:03 am

            Once again with the heroic levels of false equivalence. What hasn’t changed is you – empty and cynical as ever.

            • Puckish Rogue 5.3.1.1.2.1
              8 February 2018 at 9:16 am

              NZ, as a general rule, doesn’t want upheaval. It wants Clarks and Keys government, sure make some changes around the edges but keep the government in the centre.

              Look at all the issues caused by Douglas and Richardson, NZ doesn’t want radicalism it wants, for lack of a better word, conservatism

              • Stuart Munro …
                8 February 2018 at 1:39 pm

                The top 1%, having grabbed everything they wanted, sure.

                The lower 60%, having lost access to their traditional resources – housing, jobs, a future – they’d’ve liked a bit of conservatism back when government was practicing radical dishonesty.

                Now they need change, if only to pay their (grossly inflated) rents.

              • savenz …
                8 February 2018 at 2:08 pm

                I have to agree with you there Puckish, I think many voters are tired of the radical economic approaches like Rogernomics by Labour, laissez-faire capitalism by National. They just want a bit of a break from it all.

            • Johan 5.3.1.1.2.2
              8 February 2018 at 9:48 am

              BM doesn’t realize, due to his hate for Labour, that the implementation of change takes time, planning starting with the removal of roadblocks set up by 9 years of National legislation.

              • cleangreen …
                8 February 2018 at 1:36 pm

                100% Johan you are correct there.

                National took over and radically “raped and pillaged our public assets and sold all our forests to the Chinese mainly so they have set us up for failure but all those national trolls will ignore this fact and carry on as if they are doing the right thing for us all, ha ha ha, they are a ship of fools and traitors keen to sell NZ.

          • Doogs 5.3.1.1.3
            8 February 2018 at 9:53 am

            You do realise what you’ve said PR? Don’t you . . . don’t you . . .?

      • Draco T Bastard 5.3.2
        8 February 2018 at 11:42 am

        Robertson, a long with the majority of Labour’s caucus, is a neo-liberal and, no, we won’t break free of the damaging chains of neo-liberalism while they’re in charge.

        • mikes 5.3.2.1
          8 February 2018 at 2:24 pm

          Totally agree. I have a lot of respect for our Prime Minister and I think on a personal level she would like to undertake some radical changes to the ‘system’. Don’t know that, its’ just a feeling I get whilst observing her as she works. Sadly, her cabinet will have other ideas (Such as keeping their jobs or keeping the globalists happy) and it will be same as same as with a few little changes here and there.

          For example..Is Labour going to repeal the employment contracts act? Of course not, they’ll tinker round the edges of bits and pieces of legislation to appease some voters but the overall agenda will remain the same as it has been since the 80’s.

          Whatever you thought of David Cunliffe, he would have been an infinitely better finance minister than Robertson in my opinion.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 5.3.2.1.1
            8 February 2018 at 5:14 pm

            They will struggle to repeal the Employment Contracts Act – Lab5 repealed it in 2000.

  6. Ad 6
    8 February 2018 at 8:32 am

    Finally, they have a government in Germany.

    http://www.dw.com/en/eu-partners-welcome-german-coalitions-planned-new-departure-for-europe/a-42490408

    Importantly, the Social Democrat Olaf Schulz has gone from mayor of Hamburg to Minister of Finaince overnight.

    http://www.dw.com/en/olaf-scholz-the-man-headed-to-germanys-finance-ministry/a-42491906

    Hope to hear this means they clean up their banks, kill austerity, and does it with sufficient style that SPD doesn’t get completely annihilated in the next election.

  7. Herodotus 7
    8 February 2018 at 9:18 am

    When will we fund out schools adequately ?
    We have this from Labour (pre election) will substitute the funding from school donations
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/98205252/labours-150-per-student-per-year-promise-over-and-above-current-funding-minister-say
    Yet we are still waiting
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/western-leader/101177800/four-west-auckland-schools-opt-out-of-school-donations
    BUT many schools receive donations well and above the $150/student level
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/101095932/schools-split-on-governments-plan-to-overhaul-donation-system
    As a parent that our local school asked for $500/student to cover MOE shortfalls of funding. So our local school would lose out from this ill thought out policy. How will they make the shortfall up ?
    Then we have some who do not pay the donation for many reasons; some valid (cannot afford – fair enough) some Not. Yet those who have the means to pay, but for a philosophical reason or they don’t have to, do not pay, yet are willing for their children to receive the benefit paid for by others.

    • Cinny 7.1
      8 February 2018 at 10:14 am

      Down this way we call it a ‘voluntary donation’ I refuse to pay it, instead I do volunteer work for the school from teaching the kids how to grow vege’s in the school garden, to making all the costumes for their school productions.

      But $500 donation is off the charts, I suggest you take it to the board of trustees, maybe the school is not managing their finances very well. I understand schools have been underfunded for so very long but I’m absolutely gobsmacked at them asking you for a $500 donation. Do parents not get together and organise fund raising at your kids school Herodotus?

      • Herodotus 7.1.1
        8 February 2018 at 10:37 am

        I am fortunate to be in a position to pay, and I value what the school delivers and my partner teachers there so I am well aware of the situation, and how over time schools have been underfunded and have to rely on outside funding eg donations. At least those who pay can get 33% back in a tax refund. Tip to claim as soon as you can in April.
        Also the decile system of funding assumes “We use deciles to target funding, for state and state-integrated schools, to help them overcome any barriers to learning that students from lower socio-economic communities might face.”
        The major implication will be the amount of funding given to the school by the government. As a general overview, more money per child will be provided to Decile 1 schools, than to Decile 10 schools. As a result, you will often find that parents of children at higher decile schools will be asked to contribute more in terms of fees, donations, time and equipment.
        https://www.education.govt.nz/school/running-a-school/resourcing/operational-funding/school-decile-ratings/
        Unfortunately whose on the board, what was the PTA committee are also the ones who pay. There are some who don’t contribute anything (gala etc) in time or $$

        • Cinny 7.1.1.1
          8 February 2018 at 12:18 pm

          Excluding the decile system (which is a bit of a sham), I wonder what the difference is between both of our schools?

          I’m in Motueka, the school my youngest attends has a roll of around 250, Yrs1 – Yrs8. Just wondering if smaller communities are more supportive of schools/involvement/funding raising etc than larger ones? As the locals here turn out in droves for any galas that any of the schools put on, either by helping/volunteering or by attending. Also the teachers keep stationary costs for the kids as low as possible, stationary for Miss Ten cost less than $20 this year for everything.

          Sounds like some on the board at yours should not be there, one would have thought that those on the board would be the biggest supporters of the school and drivers of fundraising re effort and time.

          Looking forward to your reply, enjoying this discussion.

          • Herodotus 7.1.1.1.1
            8 February 2018 at 12:37 pm

            All our local schools range from Decile 8-10 . Of the 4 primary schools in the area the lowest roll is 550. Galas up here are for a specific need .eg playing field drainage (That IMO should have been installed when the school was established). All 7 of the local schools has had to do this at their own expense, and should shame those in the MOE for their lack of foresight.
            Board is not the problem(and I salute all those who volunteer for this) most can afford the “fees”, the school benefits and so do the students.
            here is what 1 local school has on its web page re Donations
            While this has many advantages such as a vibrant learning community, positive student attitudes, and strong work ethics. It’s biggest difficulty is that annually we receive only a fraction of the Ministry of Education funding that is given to low decile schools.
            This has a huge impact on what we can offer our students.

            • Cinny 7.1.1.1.1.1
              8 February 2018 at 4:38 pm

              Thanks for that Herodotus, really interesting. The school deciles here are around a 5, the lowest is a 3, and the highest an 8, most are a 5 or 6.

              Maybe it does have something to do with smaller communities as well as decile, most schools here are small, compared with your area, rolls vary from 100 – 250 kids.

              Galas here are annually, some schools use the money to provide all of the stationary requirements for students for the following year. Others to cut down on school camp fee’s, or provide sports equipment etc. Locals are generous with their time, working bee’s, supportive local businesses and horticulture growers etc.

              Decile funding aside, maybe wealthier people are not as resourceful, because they don’t have to be. A decile 6 school in our region has fires in every class room for winter heating, fire wood is gathered by locals, utilising donated wind felled tree’s from local farms that type of thing, community efforts, not just the parents of school children, everyone helps.

              All that aside, every school in the country should be adequately funded, and they should all have solar panels.

              It’s all rather complex, thanks for your feedback, much appreciated. Good topic, kids come first around here 🙂 Much respect to you and your partner, I’m massively supportive of educators and hold them in very high regard.

              Personally I’m thrilled with our new governments education team, looking forward to some real progress in this sector over the next couple of years.

    • Draco T Bastard 7.2
      8 February 2018 at 11:45 am

      School donations need to be banned.

      • Herodotus 7.2.1
        8 February 2018 at 12:13 pm

        Agreed, but when sectors of our education system are being consciously under funded, how else are schools/kindys to secure these needed funds?
        Some have reverted to paying overseas students, others fund raising – But only a few volunteer and they work damn hard for what they achieve eg Galas etc.
        Like housing we all know there is an issue but … Solutions are lacking (I note that IMO housing issues are so great that we have gone well beyond any real solutions- no answers- only means to attack peripheral issues)
        And a “free” education system is about as true as “100% pure”- Just PR spin

        • ropata 7.2.1.1
          8 February 2018 at 9:21 pm

          You mentioned the core problem IMO “housing issues” driven by the greed of Aussie banks and the property industry. It’s sucking the life out of the economy. Kiwis may be more “productive” but we have more people working longer hours for lower wages than ever.

      • UncookedSelachimorpha 7.2.2
        8 February 2018 at 1:37 pm

        As does fund raising and charging for ambulances. Another basic service that should be provided for all by the state.

  8. Cinny 8
    8 February 2018 at 9:49 am

    Netanyahu is going down and I’m going to enjoy every freaking minute of it.

    News reports for this corrupt piece of shite are just coming through, police chiefs have decided to recommend indicting him for corruption.

    Will post some links as soon as more info becomes available.

    “The Times of Israel reported Wednesday that police chiefs, including the general commissioner of Israel’s police force, were in “unanimous agreement” that Netanyahu should be indicted for allegedly accepting bribes and receiving lavish gifts from wealthy benefactors, including Israeli-born Hollywood producer Arnon Milchan.”

    http://thehill.com/policy/international/372772-israeli-police-recommend-indicting-netanyahu-for-corruption-report

    http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news/in-israel/local/police-recommend-to-indict-pm-for-bribery-34454

  9. eco maori 9
    8 February 2018 at 11:00 am

    I’m lstening to this very good music now
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFhs7WVvuXk&list=RDwFhs7WVvuXk

    The big PICTURE is that there is a direct link to the way the neoliberals who run the CROWN and the same type of neoliberals who ran the CROWN in the 1840 .
    That is in the way they are behaving and treating ME with propaganda lies and deceit .
    They weave a VALE over the common people eyes to justify there malicious ways they are treating me If the common people new how these neoliberals were treating MAORI
    during THE NEWZEALAND WARS they would have been up in arms over there behavior and put a stop to that ever happening . The NEWZALAND settlers were coned that all the LAND transactions were being carried out in a fair and Just way this was a Fallacy .
    It was a small % who benefited the most from this the neoliberal 1% this is how they gained so much control of the western society this is how shonky managed to cheat and change OUR society in the last 9 years to benefit the 1% .
    Give the police all they want to get there cooperation in his goal of the 1% dominance of OUR society. They will dispose of people who call them out on there real actions against the 99% of common people this is what they are trying to do to ECO MAORI but I have the internet and a brain that will beat them into submission in the END .
    They used Te kooti OWN people against him as they are doing that to me I know every single one of YOU I will forgive most of you but not all will be forgiven .

    MAORI have a lot to thank my Te puna Ropata Wahawaha and his advisers for saving us from total dominance from these neoliberals animals is to good a word to describe the un humane people .

    Ropata worked out that the CROWN was deceiving him he worked with the CROWN till he got well armed gave them a BROWN EYE lol retreated to his strong hold
    Te tairawhiti Ngati Porou .
    The neoliberals were not happy when they figured out Ropata had made fools of them as I am. They thought of taking OUR land by force they changed there minds when reality hit them that Ropata was to well armed so they tried other dirty tactics to under mine Ngati Porou as they are still doing to this day.

    Ropata Wahawaha move to counter there moves to dominate Maori was the nurturing and education of OUR GREAT leader my Te puna Sir Api Ana Ngata.
    Ngata and his helpers saved Maori from total dominance from these neoliberals .

    This is one of the reason that Ngati Porou have such High regards from all the Maori ELDERS the other is OUR Te puna we have a strong lineage so to those neoliberals ECO Maori gives you a BROWN EYE this is a major insult to MAORI .
    Ana To Kai Ka kite ano P.S can all my clients pay me as I provide a honorable service thanks Why is the book east coast myths and legends missing

  10. veutoviper 10
    8 February 2018 at 11:17 am

    Julie Anne Genter has now thrown her hat in the ring for the Green Co-Leader position according to RNZ News at 11am.

    • The Chairman 10.1
      8 February 2018 at 1:58 pm

      “Julie Anne Genter has now thrown her hat in the ring for the Green Co-Leader”

      Why?

      Has she no confidence in Davidson? Or is she seeking to boost her résumé and of course, salary?

      Will her standing be the start of ructions within?

      • savenz 10.1.1
        8 February 2018 at 2:12 pm

        I doubt there will be any ructions. Greens should have as many people standing as possible to say their special strengths and hopefully make the type of decision that changed Labour’s fortunes by electing someone that people can relate to and feel they can trust with policy that is meaningful to enough voters who will vote for them.

      • veutoviper 10.1.2
        8 February 2018 at 2:38 pm

        Why has she thrown her hat in the ring?

        I am not a mind reader so would not presume to say why. I am also not a Green Party member, so it is not for me to speak for her or the Party. (I am certainly not anti-Greens at all; far from it.)

        There are plenty of interviews etc going on with her today that you could find for yourself to see what she herself says as to her reasons.

        Who knows, maybe she has thrown her hat into the ring because yesterday Mike Hosking endorsed her as his choice of co-leader if the Greens really think they need one. LOL. ( /sarc)

      • McFlock 10.1.3
        8 February 2018 at 3:44 pm

        Maybe she just thinks people should have a choice. But thanks for your attempt to sow discord sorry “concern”.

        • The Chairman 10.1.3.1
          8 February 2018 at 4:00 pm

          There is far more chance of ructions due to her throwing her hat into the ring than me asking about it on here.

          “Maybe she just thinks people should have a choice”

          Rather than the party displaying a united front and getting in behind Davidson?

          • McFlock 10.1.3.1.1
            8 February 2018 at 4:04 pm

            You only need to display a united front if your internal structure is horribly fractured.

            Yet again you really don’t understand that grownups can disagree without “ructions”.

            • The Chairman 10.1.3.1.1.1
              8 February 2018 at 4:25 pm

              If your internal structure is horribly fractured, displaying a united front is fraudulent.

              There is strength in genuine unity.

              I understand grownups can disagree without ructions, what you seem to fail to understand is that disagreements can also create ructions.

              And as we’ve seen in the past, the Greens aren’t immune to it.

              • McFlock …
                8 February 2018 at 4:39 pm

                As we’ve also seen, they’re a fuckload more mature about it than most other parties. Get a life.

      • Robert Guyton 10.1.4
        8 February 2018 at 4:06 pm

        McFlock said to The Chairman:
        “… thanks for your attempt to sow discord sorry “concern”.”
        And it bears saying again.

        • The Chairman 10.1.4.1
          8 February 2018 at 4:30 pm

          And as I said to McFlock. There is far more chance of ructions due to her throwing her hat into the ring than me asking about it on here.

          Yet, me asking about it seems to have hit a nerve with you. Wonder why?

      • veutoviper 10.1.5
        8 February 2018 at 4:44 pm

        Will Bill English’s standing down be the start of runctions within?

        • The Chairman 10.1.5.1
          8 February 2018 at 7:25 pm

          Seeing as National are polling strong and are no longer in power, a messed up leadership change is one thing that could potentially harm them.

    • Ad 10.2
      8 February 2018 at 3:36 pm

      Genter is easy to respect in government already. She’s been such a consistent and wise transport and urban form advocate, a natural as Minister, and solid in central Auckland.

  12. Puckish Rogue 12
    8 February 2018 at 12:02 pm

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/101250500/mori-unemployment-still-needs-a-lot-of-work-despite-big-drop-in-figures-says-minister

    The exchange became heated when Jackson questioned where RNZ had got its figures from.

    They were from Stats NZ, said Espiner. “As the minister I’d expect you to know that – it’s only four pars in, mate.”

    Boom mic drop 🙂

    • faroutdude 12.1
      8 February 2018 at 12:09 pm

      The sheer competence of this Govt is breathtaking. Isn’t Jackson a Minister of something?

      • Puckish Rogue 12.1.1
        8 February 2018 at 12:18 pm

        TBH I’m more impressed with Guyon in this instance, it showed he did his homework

      • cleangreen 12.1.2
        8 February 2018 at 1:49 pm

        faroutdude. – Isn’t Jackson a Minister of something?

        He is far better than your ‘minister of everything’ and propaganda (Joyce the $11 billion dollar hole man) eh

    • McFlock 12.2
      8 February 2018 at 12:20 pm

      ~11% down to ~9% is a 20-odd% drop to a still unacceptable level of unemployment.

      Interesting interview – bit of decent sparring 🙂

      • Puckish Rogue 12.2.1
        8 February 2018 at 12:25 pm

        Oh yeah I mean its still to high but its just good to see journalists and politicians sparring

        • McFlock 12.2.1.1
          8 February 2018 at 12:30 pm

          been a while overall – nine years or so…

          • Puckish Rogue 12.2.1.1.1
            8 February 2018 at 12:32 pm

            Feels like approximately 18 to me… 🙂

            • McFlock 12.2.1.1.1.1
              8 February 2018 at 12:45 pm

              lol corngate

              • Puckish Rogue …
                8 February 2018 at 12:52 pm

                Campbell did good against Clark but couldn’t handle Key…I guess Campbell couldn’t manage the step up in intensity 🙂

                • McFlock …
                  8 February 2018 at 1:01 pm

                  Key (and Bridges comes to mind) didn’t spar, even when journos came after them (which was rare enough).

                  Bridges just got shouty and yelled over the interviewer, whereas Key would just shrug and maintain bullshit, saying things that sounded reasonable but were actually conflicting and inconsistent bullshit, like trump. Closest key got was the Hardtalk interview, and even then all he did was say he could pay other experts to agree with him.

                  Whereas Jackson and Espiner actually debated a commonly-agreed reality.

                  • UncookedSelachimorpha …
                    8 February 2018 at 1:39 pm

                    And the Nats all but boycotted the national broadcaster – preferred dog whistling on commercial talkback.

                • Stuart Munro …
                  8 February 2018 at 1:44 pm

                  Campbell didn’t get to handle Key because Key ran from him like a yellow dog.

                  Stephen Sackur didn’t get another crack at him either – Key bravely ran away.

            • cleangreen 12.2.1.1.1.2
              8 February 2018 at 1:50 pm

              PK cant count can he/she.

      • savenz 12.2.2
        8 February 2018 at 2:13 pm

        Is that still based on 1 hour of work a week?

  13. faroutdude 13
    8 February 2018 at 12:32 pm

    No doubt the COL will solve this. How much training will be needed to get those 100,000,000 trees planted this year? Oh, hang on – that’s another back track isn’t it..
    Well, at least those 100,000 houses will suck up 1000’s of the unemployed – oops, see above, & it’s only a few more than existing plans isn’t it?
    It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so tragic.

    • McFlock 13.1
      8 February 2018 at 12:54 pm

      “Backtrack” must be one of those irregular words: National makes promises it doesn’t follow through on, they’re “savvy”. LabNZ1Grn make promises that take more than 100 days to reach capacity, they “backtrack”.

  14. Muttonbird 14
    8 February 2018 at 2:22 pm

    If anyone is in doubt about the scale of Chinese military activity on the disputed Spratly Is reefs, take a look!

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11990179

    • Exkiwiforces 14.1
      8 February 2018 at 4:42 pm

      Yeah, seen it yesterday while I was reading the morning paper over a coffee down at the local cafe and I wasn’t really surprised at what I was reading, but somehow I still managed to choke on my coffee.

  15. Muttonbird 15
    8 February 2018 at 3:32 pm

    Further to a comment I made a week or so ago on the effect airbnb is having on the rental market with respect to the recent stats released by real estate and property management companies showing an up to 50% drop in the number of rental listings in the past year – here is what this trend looks like in practise:

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/property/101259878/from-290-a-week-to-4000-a-month–boost-from-joining-airbnb

    I think there is very poor information available on the numbers of multiple property owners who have taken their houses off the rental market and listed them as tourist accomodation but without that information it is easy to conclude it’s having a dramatic effect.

    Some councils are moving to regulate airbnb as has happened all over the world where there is housing issues and/or pressure from traditional tourist accomodation providers.

    Imo this information is pretty crucial nationwide. I imagine it’ll only eventuate when the bite really starts to come on employers not being able to get staff because there’s nowhere for them to live…

  16. Muttonbird 16
    8 February 2018 at 4:02 pm

    This is a fine example of research commissioned by the public service of our universities and technical institutes.

    Whether or not this is also an example of Bill English’s big data/social investment approach I’m not sure because how that works in practise has never been explained.

    Regardless if it is, there’s no point in collecting valuable social data which says vulnerable transience is damaging and that is increasing while at the same time you’re pulling down state houses, the very thing that fights vulnerable transience at the coal face.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11989070

  17. Stunned Mullet 17
    8 February 2018 at 5:42 pm

    I don’t know why you bother Wayne – the double standards on this site are a thing to behold.

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  18. BM 18
    8 February 2018 at 7:00 pm

    Yeah, Boob mones

    https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/61814107/fuck-you-owww.jpg

    Lol

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

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