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Open mike 08/02/2025

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 8th, 2025 - 117 comments
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For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

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117 comments on “Open mike 08/02/2025 ”

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  1. Morrissey 1
    8 February 2025 at 8:14 am

    The U.S. regime gave $17.9 billion in military "aid" to Israel in the last year. Israel has failed utterly in its stated aim: to destroy the resistance. It's without equal, though, when it comes to destroying women and children, the elderly, and the sick.

    ‘Great majority’ of Israelis would support Trump’s Gaza plan if it was feasible

    The Israeli response to Trump’s plan to ethnically cleanse Gaza has been largely “shameful”, Ori Goldberg, an Israeli political commentator, told Al Jazeera.

    “Israelis have now completely released their collective subconscious and everyone from the Zionist left to the hardcore right is waxing poetic about how wonderful it could be if Trump’s suggestion comes true,” he said, speaking from Tel Aviv.

    “The hard right is acting as though it’s expecting real ethnic cleansing. The Israeli centre and centre left is saying how ‘it would be great if it could actually happen but we know it won’t’.

    “The word shameful is the common denominator – the great majority of Israelis would support Trump’s proposal if it could come to pass.”

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2025/2/6/live-trumps-gaza-plan-condemned-as-palestinians-pledge-to-never-leave?update=3493337

    • KJT 1.1
      8 February 2025 at 8:31 am

      Why is anyone surprised.

      Israel was founded on removing Palistinians, since 1948.

      This is just a continuation of the project.

      The last thing Israel wants is peace. It would stop the project!

    • Ad 1.2
      8 February 2025 at 8:56 am

      Israel has got even more than it wanted.

      – Syria regime change

      – Iran support into Hezbollah dead, and Hezbollah stunted

      – Iran support into Hamas dead

      – Existing Abraham Accords in place

      – Jordan and Egypt no longer thinking of providing military assistance to Palestinians

      – Lebanon south + Golan Heights effectively expanded

      – West Bank accelerated takeover

      – Lebanon's ruler fully agreed by IDF

      – US actively undermining ICJ and preparing destruction of international law

      -No OPEC or other Arab threat in retaliation to Anything Israel has done

      – UN aid neutralized, USAID destroyed

      – Netanyahu strengthened internally, huge optics with Trump for all to see.

      – Israel economy trucking along

      – Captives returned

      – Qatar established as successful peace broker

      And finally, Trump takes credit and is ready with bulldozers and developer capital.

      It ain't fair but it's real.

      • Bearded Git 1.2.1
        8 February 2025 at 9:24 am

        Mmm…not sure there Ad.

        Israel is now a pariah state.

        Netantahi is widely accepted as a war criminal.

        Massive international response rejecting Trump's simplistic and knee jerk suggestion to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Massive support for a Palestinian state where before Gaza's destruction this was waning.

        Trump and Bibi have shot themselves in the foot.

      • francesca 1.2.2
        8 February 2025 at 9:40 am

        Who knows how the Syrian regime change will pan out?

        Turkey has emerged as top dog in Syria, backing HTR and Jolani as leader .That doesn't necessarily bode well for Israel in the long term

        Hamas , as a result of Israel's actions has recruited 15,000 new radicalised fighters

        Saudi has very clearly stated it's opposition to the removal of Palestinians from Gaza, there'll be no ties with Israel without a Palestinian state .

        13 primarily muslim countries still do not recognise Israeli passports

        Israel's reputation has plummeted amongst the populations of the world.

        These are very early days , too early for Israeli triumphalism

        Israel's "achievements " will have their backlash and may turn to bite them in the bum big time

        The hypocrisy of the "rules based order " is there for all to see

        There are consequences to this

      • weston 1.2.3
        8 February 2025 at 10:11 am

        Your so far up shit creek without a paddle ad its remarkable .For starters

        HAMAS HAS DEFEATED THE IDF ON THE

        BATTLEFIELD DESPITE THE ODDS

      • Morrissey 1.2.4
        8 February 2025 at 12:03 pm

        Certainly Israel is adept at sowing chaos, supporting Al Qaeda in Syria, and massacring civilians. It can do that because it is aided and abetted by the United States, Britain, and—irony of brutal ironies—Germany. The Trump regime's "Abraham Accords" that you cite lack any popular support, either in the Gulf States or anywhere else.

        Just a few generations ago, another outlaw state seemed to be in the ascendant.

        https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/map/german-conquests-in-europe-1939-1942#:~:text=Germany%20defeated%20and%20occupied%20Poland,and%20Greece%20(April%201941).

      • Muttonbird 1.2.5
        8 February 2025 at 10:03 pm

        You can't demand lefties adhere to convention one day then throw your hands up the air the next.

        Hope I don’t get banned for this comment. Hard to know these days.

        [Stop acting as a moron! As you know full-well, Ad is an Author and highly-valued contributor here; his comment was innocuous. You’re insidiously sniping at Mods, which is a self-martyrdom offence here, as you know – Incognito]

        • Incognito 1.2.5.1
          8 February 2025 at 10:21 pm

          Mod note

        • Muttonbird 1.2.5.2
          8 February 2025 at 10:45 pm

          My question for the author, highly valued contributor, and mod is why ask lefties for calm at the same time as celebrating Trump smashing long held convention.

          This is a very legitimate and on topic question. To me, Ad’s stance is contradictory and that’s kind of his schtick which I have an issue with because I’m really sick of people (authors and mods) telling us proles off for being socially conscious.

          Doesn't everyone here get to be questioned on their comments, or only some?

          Where to for us if we are chased off The Standard every time we question authority?

          [For your own sake I’m putting you in Pre-Mod, so that we can deal with you fresh tomorrow – Incognito]

          • Incognito 1.2.5.2.1
            8 February 2025 at 10:51 pm

            Mod note

          • Incognito 1.2.5.2.2
            9 February 2025 at 12:17 pm

            Where to even start with this collusion of confusions?

            Ad is an Author, not a Mod (Editor, in WP parlance).

            Ad’s comments can be contrarian, contradictory, and confusing but they generate robust conversations here. His dialectics are a refreshing step up from basic B&W reckons and rants, IMO.

            As such, neither Ad nor any Author or Mod is ‘telling you off’ for expressing an opinion, they are merely presenting a different opinion and counter-argument. This is the basis for robust debate here.

            You imply that there’s some kind of ‘editorial control’ occurring here on TS that’s not consistent with the site’s About and Policy. As you know, the TS team takes such accusations or even hints of ‘censorship’ very seriously and before one starts to lash out it may be wise to get one’s facts right and be very meticulous in one’s criticism.

            I find your othering into us vs. them, “us proles […] for being socially conscious” quite telling. To me it means that you see yourself not on the same team as TS Authors and Mods, which explains your ongoing hostility here towards TS’s team – it’s getting beyond tedious (and we’ve been here before too many times now).

            If you feel that you [plural?] are being chased off TS every time you attack, implicitly or explicitly, TS Authors and Mods then you must seek the reason with(in) yourself, your methods, and your engrained biases & prejudices against TS. Failing that you may wish to leave on your own accord, i.e., disagree to disagree, and take your complaints about TS elsewhere, which is what some banned people do (which, ironically, confirms the TS ban for bad behaviour).

            Of course, this site is left-leaning and both comments and Posts reflect a (strong) lean to the left. Lefties tend to be their own harshest critics (and worst enemies), rightly or wrongly, deliberately or accidentally.

            Moderation is on behaviour not on style & content of comments. Some commenters are being questioned more by the commentariat because of style & content of their comments and poor commenting behaviour can magnify this. However, this doesn’t mean those comment threads are high-quality discussions and poor commenting behaviour can result in wasting precious time & (mental) bandwidth here. This is when Mods tend to step in to try to stop the haemorrhaging and guide, gently or firmly/forcibly, the flow back into more positive and constructive waters, so to speak.

            I can only hope that this explanation, and the many others from Weka, will lead to a positive change in your attitudes towards TS’s team and your associated commenting behaviour if/when you come back here.

    • Jenny 1.3
      8 February 2025 at 11:37 am

      The whole Nazi' 'Madagascar Plan' thing, has really fired Trump's imagination.

      Trump contemplates sending US born Americans who commit 'heinous crimes' to another country.

    • Jenny 1.4
      8 February 2025 at 2:08 pm

      Hitler's initial plan for the Jewish population of Europe was to transfer them to Madagascar.

      When Hitler's initial plan to transfer millions of Jewish people to Madagascar proved to be impossible to implement in practice, the Nazis turned to what they called 'The Final Solution to the Jewish Problem"

      Here is IDF Jonathon Conricus talking about the Palestinian problem and why he supports the complete transfer of the entire Palestinian population of Gaza to Jordan and Egypt. Which he calls the "Long Term Solution".

      And when Colonel Conricus 'Long Term Solution' proves impossible to be implemented in practice, we all know what his "Final Solution" is. We are seeing it already.

      • Jenny 1.4.1
        8 February 2025 at 2:49 pm

        '

        Support for genocide abroad means repression at home.

        Trump's newly appointed US Attorney General, Pam Bondi, has launched a new dedicated US government task force to go after Palestinian supporters in the US and abroad.

        According to Colonel Conricus, above, the difference between Hamas and the Palestinian people is indistinguishable.

        No one is safe.

        According to Ted Cruz, even Joe Biden and the Democrats are supporters of Hamas:

        US attorney general launches Oct 7 task force, cracks down on Hamas and US-based supporters

        All Israel News Staff | Published: February 7, 2025

        …..The task force will offer assistance to Oct. 7 attack victims and the families of hostages in Gaza, investigate Hamas supporters in the United States – along with funders of the terror group – and pursue other means of going after the terrorism in collaboration with both U.S. federal agencies and the State of Israel.

        JTF 10-7 will also investigate and prosecute hate crimes and terror-related civil rights violations linked to Hamas supporters inside the U.S., including on college campuses…..

        …..the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, and U.S.-based individuals and entities that provide funding to Hamas,” stated a memorandum from Bondi’s office.

        The establishment of the task force comes after Texas Senator Ted Cruz alleged that the Biden administration had been secretly funding Hamas.

        “They secretly poured literally uncountable hundreds of millions of dollars toward Hamas, including tens of millions of cash they could never account for,” Cruz said. “Throughout the Biden admin, they knew the money they were pouring into Gaza would benefit Hamas. They did it anyway.”…..

        https://allisrael.com/us-attorney-general-launches-oct-7-task-force-cracks-down-on-hamas-and-us-based-supporters

        Maybe these so called Hamas supporters are slated to be the American born citizens that Trump wants to deport.

        • Ad 1.4.1.1
          8 February 2025 at 10:09 pm

          That Bondi is Joe McCarthy empowered with every legal and Budget and White House revenge-list and a completely unconstrained President and Supreme Court.

          Bondi is a power out of 1930s Louisiana.

      • Psycho Milt 1.4.2
        8 February 2025 at 6:34 pm

        This stuff would be more credible if you horseshoe-theory left types and the entire Muslim world weren't enthusiasts for Israelis to be exiled or killed.

        • Phillip ure 1.4.2.1
          8 February 2025 at 9:12 pm

          As one of those 'left'types..um .!..no..!

        • Jenny 1.4.2.2
          9 February 2025 at 8:19 am

          ‘
          Psycho Milt @1.4.2

          “…left types and the entire Muslim world weren’t enthusiasts for Israelis to be exiled or killed.”

          Hi Psycho, maybe you might like to listen to the views of someone with a different perspective on things.

          Here is an Israeli who's perspective is that the whole Muslim World and Leftists aren't enthusiasts for Israelis to be exiled or killed.

          The General's Son Miko Peled. Listen to what he has to say and give me your thoughts

  2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2
    8 February 2025 at 8:37 am

    In a word ?..No

    'Are we being tough enough?': Wineries fall short on wastewater compliance

    Wineries deemed non-compliant had issues with wastewater ponding, discharging in a sensitive soil area, exceeding daily discharge volumes, exceeding wastewater or soil sampling limits, and exceeding discharge volumes, a report prepared by Stewart for the meeting said.

    Marlborough Sounds ward councillor Ben Minehan questioned if the council was being tough enough

    "This is going on and on and on. Do we need to get harder?" he asked.

    I note they blame "High Staff turnover"….FFS. Do they not have Systems in place? IMO seems an easy blame shifter…

    A dozen wineries failed to meet wastewater compliance rules during harvest 2024, with high staff turnover partly to blame, a new report shows.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/541184/are-we-being-tough-enough-wineries-fall-short-on-wastewater-compliance

    I also note this is Marlborough, a huge wine making area, with of course a gigantic profit from same. And sadly, a history of well documented worker (ie Staff) abuse…..Here 2, many more.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/economy/employment/marlborough-wine-business-fined-120k-for-exploiting-vulnerable-migrant-workers/6HHL6T74N7U35K4XQHWVTUHA7Y/

    'Blatant exploitation': Migrant workers packed in freezing, damp rooms for $150 a week

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/129496019/blatant-exploitation-migrant-workers-packed-in-freezing-damp-rooms-for-150-a-week

    Otago wineries?

  3. Drowsy M. Kram 3
    8 February 2025 at 9:00 am

    Wanting to feel safe and secure – I can relate to that.

    Hottest January on record called ‘terrifying’ by climate scientists after defying expectations [7 Feb 2025]
    Scientists called the data ‘astonishing and, frankly terrifying’ after January broke climate records

    January 2025 is the 18th month in the last 19 months which saw the global average surface air temperature more than 1.5C above the pre-industrial level.

    “Yet emissions continue to rise, while fossil fuel corporations seek to expand operations. Grim doesn't even begin to describe our prospects.”

    Global reliance on fossil fuels shows little sign of letting up as Trump started his second term with the promise to “drill, baby, drill”.

    Jones Reveals Govt’s Actual Climate Policy – Expanding Fossil Fuel Extraction [31 Jan 2025]

    https://thestandard.org.nz/keep-on-digging/

    Critical minerals list supports coal, not batteries and solar panels
    [3 Feb 2025]
    With OMV set to announce unexpectedly good flows from its Pohokura field and Genesis buying in more coal, the tide is turning back to investment in fossil fuels.

    Steve Abel, the protesting Green MP, says this Government is showing no sign of being committed in any way to transitioning New Zealand away from fossil fuel dependency. “Everything they are doing takes us towards greater dependency – from tanking the electric car market, cancelling ferries and public transport, to sidling up to the oil and gas industry,” he says.

    The mining industry may defying the rising seawaters like King Canute, but Abel argues the tide of history is against the extractive mentality. “It’s incoherent. It’s basically Shane Jones’ reckons. We can’t mine our way to a liveable planet.”

  4. Phillip ure 4
    8 February 2025 at 9:02 am

    Re the 3 yr vs. 4 yrs parliamentary term debate…

    What could make shifting to a four year term more palatable would be to introduce a term limit for prime ministers…

    Two terms should do it…

    Of course the other benefit from this term limit would mean that prime ministers would no longer spend their second term trying not to offend vested interests/pitching for a third term..

    That way lies incrementalism. .which equates to failure ..

    And just looking at the environmental pressures fast building…

    .. surely incrementalism is the last thing we need..?

    A four year term ..and two term time limits… could save us from wasting that second term..as we do now ..

    • alwyn 4.1
      8 February 2025 at 12:39 pm

      How are you going to determine what a "term" is for a PM? We don't elect them and they don't change at any particular date.

      For example, Mike Moore became PM On 4 September 1990. He lost the election on 27 October and left office on 2 November 1990. Was that a term? If he had led his party to victory in 1990 would he have had to quit in 1993 at the next election?

      Did Holyoake's time as PM in 1957 (for about 2 months) count as a term?

      Unless we convert to a system like the US I don't see how we could have any way of limiting their time unless we just have a flat rule such as "No person can be an MP for more than X years". That could be a bit of a problem if a term went for a few weeks over the three years that is standard and half the house had to leave Parliament with a couple of weeks of the term left.

      • Obtrectator 4.1.1
        8 February 2025 at 4:56 pm

        Under the US constitution (as amended after FDR) a VP who takes over from his chief is allowed to serve the balance of that four-year term plus two more in their own right, if they run and are elected. Both LBJ and Harry Truman had that option, but chose not to exercise it.

        NZ could have a similar rule.

        • alwyn 4.1.1.1
          8 February 2025 at 6:25 pm

          It is slightly different to that. It includes the words "or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected". Thus Johnson could have been elected again in 1968 because he had less than 2 years in Office when finishing out Kennedy's term.

          If I read it correctly it wouldn't have applied to Truman at all. It says, again in Section 1, "But this Article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President when this Article was proposed by the Congress". It was proposed in 1947 when Truman was the current President so it wouldn't appear to have affected him.

          You suggest that New Zealand could have a similar rule but how would you word it? It is easy enough in the US where the President's term is exactly four years but what would you do in New Zealand when the term of Parliament is not fixed? The shortest I remember was 1949 to 1951 and the longest was from 1938 until 1943 after they postponed the election that was meant to be held in 1941.

          • gsays 4.1.1.1.1
            8 February 2025 at 8:06 pm

            Howzabout,'must retire at the end of second full term'.

            I'm picking that's what Phil was getting at.

            • alwyn 4.1.1.1.1.1
              8 February 2025 at 10:54 pm

              'must retire at the end of second full term'

              What would happen in the following case, which of course happened?

              We had a term from 1949-1951. It was about 21 months. Then we had about 3 years from 1951 to 1954. When did Holland complete a "second full term"?

              Was it in 1954? Was it after 6 years which would have been in late 1955? Or was 1949-1951 not a full term and it would have been in 1957 after a full term from 1951 to 1954 and a second full term from 1954 to 1957?

              I really isn't that easy, is it?

              • gsays …
                9 February 2025 at 9:00 am

                Rather than get caught in the weeds of pedantry, we cross these very rare bridges when we coma across them.

                Phil is talking reform that I think is worthy of consideration.

                • alwyn …
                  9 February 2025 at 9:22 am

                  Having seen what happens when you don't define very carefully what you mean I am not as sanguine as you.

                  Look at the total mess we have because Geoffrey Palmer happily introduced the concept of "the principles of the treaty of Waitangi" into a bill without knowing, or apparently caring what it meant. Do you want to repeat that?

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    9 February 2025 at 10:15 am

                    Look at the total mess we have because Geoffrey Palmer happily introduced the concept of "the principles of the treaty of Waitangi" into a bill…

                    Although, as you would know and happily acknowledge, the first appearance of this 'concept' predates Palmer's stint in Parliament.

                    The principles of te Tiriti o Waitangi: where it all started
                    [6 Oct 2023]

                    An election promise

                    The phrase “the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi” first appeared in legislation with the Treaty of Waitangi Act 1975, which established the Waitangi Tribunal, the permanent commission of inquiry that makes recommendations on claims brought by Māori about Crown actions that breach the treaty principles.
                    …
                    Norman Kirk’s Labour Party appears to have inadvertently kickstarted the principles controversy. In The Constitution of New Zealand: A Contextual Analysis, Justice Matthew Palmer and Professor Dean Knight recount how the Act came into being.
                    …
                    The Bill received royal assent on 10 October 1975.

                    • alwyn …
                      9 February 2025 at 11:41 am

                      In fact I wasn't aware that the phrase went back that far.

                      I read through these articles but I still don't know, in spite of he comment early in the one you linked to that "In this three-part series, LawNews will aim to answer basic questions about the principles of the treaty, such as what are they? Where can they be found?", I am still not sure what they are and where they can be found.

                      However it does appear that Geoffrey wasn't solely to blame. He just didn't see, or apparently care, what a can of worms they were.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    9 February 2025 at 4:14 pm

                    He [Palmer] just didn't see, or apparently care, what a can of worms they were.

                    smiley Nor, apparently, did the Hon. D. MacIntyre, Minister of Maori Affairs in the third National (party) government, when he committed in Parliament [on 5 November 1976] to "proceeding to set up the [Waitangi] tribunal", even though the National party had "strenuously attacked the Waitangi Tribunal as window-dressing" while in opposition.

                    Nearly fifty years later, I suspect that even our Deputy PM in waiting would characterise the Tribunal as less ‘window dressing’, and more a hinderance to the privatisation of Aotearoa New Zealand.

                    https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-21-01-2025/#comment-2021792

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    9 February 2025 at 4:30 pm

                    Oops – link for the 'strenuously attacked the Waitangi Tribunal' quote.

                    https://www.austlii.edu.au/nz/journals/VUWLawRw/1981/2.pdf [p.33]

          • Ad 4.1.1.1.2
            8 February 2025 at 10:17 pm

            From Bolger to Key nearly 3 decades we were blessed with stable 3 term governments.

            If we get to 1-or-2 terms tops and weak main parties apropos Germany we won't need term limits, but we will certainly need a much stronger Governor General. Or an Upper House.

            • Phillip ure 4.1.1.1.2.1
              9 February 2025 at 4:06 pm

              Two terms under a 4 yr term is eight years..one year less than three of the current 3 terms..

              So I am struggling to see/understand what you are concerned about…

              …and 'blessed'…. really..?

              They are what got us into the mess we are currently in…

              ..cursed ..more like it…

      • Psycho Milt 4.1.2
        8 February 2025 at 6:37 pm

        Good point. It's a basic problem if Prime Ministers aren't directly elected – how do you make them serve a maximum of 8 years? It's their party that decides whether they're the PM or not, voters don't get a look in.

    • Jenny 4.2
      8 February 2025 at 1:39 pm

      Phillip ure @4

      8 February 2025 at 9:02 am

      Re the 3 yr vs. 4 yrs parliamentary term debate…

      What could make shifting to a four year term more palatable would be to introduce a term limit for prime ministers…

      In my opinion we need more democracy not less,

      What could make shifting to a four year term more palatable for me would lowering the age of franchise to 16.

      Only twice in New Zealand's parliamentary history has there been a one term government.

      Eight years is a very long time in young people's lives.

      During WWII New Zealanders aged 18–46 were eligible for conscription.

      If another global war breaks out and our overseas allies could put pressure on us to send troops.

      A New Zealand government could take this country to war and even impose conscription.

      Against their will, young people could be conscripted to fight and die overseas in war, with no democratic say in the matter.

      That's not democracy that is the worst form of repressive government.

      And then there is climate change, which will affect upcoming generations more than those over the age of 20, What right have we to condemn these young people to grow up in a depleted natural environment in which they had no say in creating?

      Four year parliamentary term without lowering the voting age to 16. That's a 'Yeah, Nah' from me.

      • Phillip ure 4.2.1
        8 February 2025 at 6:40 pm

        (@ jenny)…

        I agree that the voting age should be lowered to 16…

        So how about four yrs/two term limits (as cited by ob..)..?…plus lowering voting age to 16..?.

        A tidy package..all in all..

        Do I have yr vote now..

        I hafta say that my initial reaction to 4yr terms was no way…

        But what swayed me was that 2 term limit reality freeing second term PM's from the current strictures/demands of campaigning for a third term..during their second term..

        They get eight years to do what they want to do…

        ..then they are done and dusted .

      • gsays 4.2.2
        8 February 2025 at 8:17 pm

        "In my opinion we need more democracy not less."

        Not necessarily more, tidy up and democratise the democracy we have.

        Severely limit lobbying. No swipe cards, 2 year stand down /restraint of trade when leaving parliament (3 years if in cabinet). Transparent register.

        State funded elections.

        Political donations only by individuals.

        No polling 6 months before election.

        I'm all down with lowering age.

  5. Jenny 5
    8 February 2025 at 9:27 am

    The killing of Hind Rajab:

    Rajab and her family were fleeing Gaza City when their vehicle was shelled, killing her uncle, aunt and three cousins, with Rajab and another cousin surviving and contacting the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) to ask for help while noting that they were being attacked by an Israeli tank. The cousin was later also killed and Rajab was left stranded in the vehicle for hours on the phone, as paramedics from PRCS attempted to rescue her. Both Rajab and the paramedics were later also found killed on 10 February after an Israeli withdrawal….

    The killing of Fatima Abdullah:

    Nine-year-old Fatima Abdullah was in her kitchen in Lebanon when a pager on the table began to beep, her aunt told the Times. She picked up the pager to bring it to her father, but it exploded in her hands, killing her…..

    On his visit to Washington a smug and smiling Benjamin Netanyahu presented Donald Trump with a gift, a gold plated replica of the pager that killed Fatima Abdullah.
    To normalise Israeli war crimes, Benjamin Netanyahu might just as well have presented Trump with a gold plated replica of the bullet that killed Hind Rajab.

    No doubt Netanyahu's grisly gift to Donald Trump will remain a treasured possession of the US president, kept on a ledge of a display cabinet in the White House, a sinister glittering executive toy, there to remind visitors to the Oval Office, 'Cross us, and your I-phone might blow a fist sized hole in your child's head.'

  6. Morrissey 6
    8 February 2025 at 9:53 am

    "The Austrian equivalent of MI5…."

    The persecution of journalists—real journalists, that is, not the stenographers of the BBC or the Grauniad—continues…

    https://x.com/richimedhurst/status/1887632785378021455

  7. lprent 7
    8 February 2025 at 10:20 am

    Waitangi weekend, fine for a change, a number of draft posts.

    Open Mike hasn't been at the top for a while.

    Obviously the rest of the world isn’t on holiday. Break-in attempts have shifted from the US to Poland to Türkiye as the hackers move server clusters.

  8. Michael Scott 8
    8 February 2025 at 10:22 am

    The journalist David Patrikarakos writes what I have been thinking about how Trump has changed the narrative with his Gaza Plan.

    https://unherd.com/2025/02/trumps-riviera-would-tear-the-middle-east-apart/

    But if this idea is dangerous, impetuous and unlikely to see the light of day, the impulse behind it (even though borne from instinct rather than design) — to think about a seemingly unsolvable problem in a new light, however crazed, is perhaps worthwhile. As policy, Trump’s Gaza plan is a disaster; as a thought experiment, it’s absurd. But such an unthinkable suggestion might actually kickstart the sort of unorthodox, disruptive thinking that has eluded more measured, knowledgeable and sharper minds — and which has helped to keep peace so tortuously at bay for almost 60 years.

    • Psycho Milt 8.1
      8 February 2025 at 6:40 pm

      I just wish western governments would see the approach of their taxpayers paying to rebuild Gaza yet again and paying aid money that Hamas will take to enable attacks against Israel yet again as being just as ridiculous and unworkable as Trump's idea is.

      • SPC 8.1.1
        8 February 2025 at 6:49 pm

        Ehud Barak outlined the alternative for Trump here.

        The resumption of all-out war in Gaza will not be allowed, and later on, an inter-Arab force will enter the picture, with the consent and inclusion of the Palestinian Authority and the backing of the Arab League, the U.S. and the UN Security Council, so that an alternative to Hamas will gradually be installed.

        The issue of transferring Palestinians from Gaza will evaporate rapidly. No consent will be given to annexation in the Gaza Strip or in Judea and Samaria. Israel will be given military equipment and threats will be made against Iran, but Trump will later strive for an improved nuclear accord.

        https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2025-02-04/ty-article-opinion/.premium/trump-will-twist-netanyahus-arm-in-the-white-house-israelis-can-use-that-to-topple-him/00000194-cd66-d78d-affc-edef32630000

        • Psycho Milt 8.1.1.1
          8 February 2025 at 8:37 pm

          It's paywalled – does he explain who will "not allow" all-out war in Gaza to resume? It sounds like wishful thinking at the same level as Trump's.

          • Muttonbird 8.1.1.1.1
            8 February 2025 at 8:56 pm

            https://archive.is/YaAzy

            That’s so you are able to read the article.

            But separately, I find it extraordinary that some commentators (those than don’t outright applaud it) dismiss Trump’s Gaza plan as just thinking out loud or ruffling feathers or helpful disruption. Might work, y’know?

            But when maligning the announcement, he was stood right next to the architect of a single, expansionist Israeli state, and child killer, benjanimin Netanyahu.

            • Ad 8.1.1.1.1.1
              8 February 2025 at 10:21 pm

              This little peace deal swap is the only thinking space the parties have had in over a year.

              It's good the White House is using it.

  9. tWig 9
    8 February 2025 at 11:14 am

    An uneasy world peace: the US has overthrown many elected 'socialists' governments and invaded independent nations via local wars ad nauseum since WW2. Keeping the world safe for US consumer goods.

    • tWig 9.1
      8 February 2025 at 11:37 am

      BHN from 59 min:

      The economy is worse than predicted, with reduced tax income of $13bi lower, due to less income from buisiness tax and wages; and $1.4bi higher government costs (borrowing to fund tax cuts? cost of the ferry fiasco…)

      Willis says even more cuts, more screwing NZers to get money, but also says the government plans to DROP corporate tax rates.

      In reply to TPU tax quoter at TS Michael Smith, BHN also point to an RNZ article on how a recent Treasury paper shows that poorer people can have an effective tax rate of 50%.

      Magenta and Emz at BHN are perhaps an acquired taste, but they pick up and connect info on an issue.

  10. Michael Scott 10
    8 February 2025 at 11:38 am

    Maybe we can live with Trumps craziness if he ends the fighting in the middle east and negotiates a solution that the Gazans and Israelis agree. Then he does similar in Ukraine.

    He was the first President in a long time to seemingly have little interest in starting or continuing wars in his first term.

    Of course he'll have to have the economy firing and begin to deliver jobs for those blue collar workers and blacks and latinos that voted for him for the GOP to get re elected.

    • weka 10.1
      8 February 2025 at 12:04 pm

      how is taking over Gaza not an act of war?

    • weka 10.2
      8 February 2025 at 12:05 pm

      do you think we can live with 47 administration removing voting rights in the US?

    • Morrissey 10.3
      8 February 2025 at 12:11 pm

      … a solution that the Gazans and Israelis agree.

      You're funny. laugh

    • joe90 10.4
      8 February 2025 at 12:26 pm

      Maybe we can live with Trumps craziness

      Well, people lived with Stalin's craziness.

      /

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekulakization#Under_Joseph_Stalin

    • Jenny 10.5
      8 February 2025 at 12:50 pm

      ‘
      Michael Scott @10

      "….Of course he'll have to have the economy firing and begin to deliver jobs for those blue collar workers and blacks and latinos that voted for him for the GOP to get re elected."

      One of the benefits of imperialism is to be able to buy off the home population with the super profits that accrue from domination of world trade.
      The use of force, (war), is one method of achieving global market and trade domination.

      To bring the world's most profitable trade route, the Panama Canal, under total US control Trump said he has not ruled out the use of force.

      The same with Greenland for its resources and its advantageous strategic position for US Imperialism. Trump has not ruled out using force to seize that territory either.

      Because of the super profits that it can bring to the US economy, imperialism is a bi-partisan supported policy in the US.

      If you think a hyper-imperialist like Trump, will usher in world peace, you are badly mistaken

      Because imperialism and war are intrinsically linked.

      Trump will not rule out force to take Panama Canal, Greenland

      By Steve Holland and Joseph Ax

      January 9, 20255:24 AM GMT+13

      PALM BEACH, Florida, Jan 7 (Reuters) – U.S. President-elect Donald Trump refused on Tuesday to rule out using military or economic action to pursue acquisition of the Panama Canal and Greenland, part of a broader expansionist agenda he has promoted since winning the Nov. 5 election…..

      https://www.reuters.com/world/trump-wont-rule-out-military-economic-action-he-seeks-control-panama-canal-2025-01-07/

  11. SPC 11
    8 February 2025 at 12:14 pm

    “‘I’m a free speech absolutist who thinks reporters should be fired for discovering unflattering information about public officials,'”joked Andrew Fleischman on X.

    Who is this about?

    https://www.mediaite.com/news/elon-musk-demands-firing-of-disgusting-and-cruel-wsj-reporter-who-uncovered-doge-employees-racist-tweets/

    Oh so a Musk appointee thinks there are too many Indians in Silicon Valley and Musk wants more in on H-1B visas.

    Despite that Musk’s reaction is to pose as someone prepared to bully towards anyone who report negatively on the Project 2025 enactment.

    He must have some agenda in play.

  12. joe90 12
    8 February 2025 at 12:23 pm

    Wonder what the DOGE death toll will be?

    /

    Abandoned in the Middle of Clinical Trials, Because of a Trump Order

    The stop-work order on U.S.A.I.D.-funded research has left thousands of people with experimental drugs and devices in their bodies, with no access to monitoring or care.

    […]

    The Times identified more than 30 frozen studies that had volunteers already in the care of researchers, including trials of:

    • malaria treatment in children under age 5 in Mozambique
    • treatment for cholera in Bangladesh
    • a screen-and-treat method for cervical cancer in Malawi
    • tuberculosis treatment for children and teenagers in Peru and South Africa
    • nutritional support for children in Ethiopia
    • early-childhood-development interventions in Cambodia
    • ways to support pregnant and breastfeeding women to reduce malnutrition in Jordan
    • an mRNA vaccine technology for H.I.V. in South Africa

    It is difficult to know the total number of trials shut down, or how many people are affected, because the swift demolition of U.S.A.I.D. in recent days has erased the public record. In addition to the disabled website, the agency no longer has a communications department. And the stop-work order prohibits any implementing agency from speaking publicly about what has happened.

    https://archive.li/nidsv (nyt)

    • Macro 12.1
      8 February 2025 at 3:33 pm

      Musk and his band of racist neophytes have blood on their hands – but what do they care?

  13. Jenny 13
    8 February 2025 at 12:59 pm

    Drones: From the category of things we didn't know we needed, till we had them.

    Handy in the age of climate change.

  14. Tony Veitch 14
    8 February 2025 at 2:58 pm

    Thom Hartman paints a very bleak picture of 'democracy' in the US. 6.30 mins long.

    • Macro 14.1
      8 February 2025 at 3:20 pm

      I think the word is "Tyrant". Dictatorships can be good or bad. Trump is just evil.

      When will the Republicans grow some balls and impeach the bastard? We cannot hope the Dems will do it. Repugnants – particularly the MAGA crowd – will only vote against such a move. It has to come from the Republicans – who after all consider themselves to be the bastions of the Constitution. And almost every day Trump rips up another bit of the Constitution.

      • Morrissey 14.1.1
        8 February 2025 at 4:03 pm

        It's a grim situation, too, in America's vassal state, Great Britain. As this report from Declassified UK makes clear, the Labour regime of Keir Starmer has even less concern for civil liberties than the Conservatives had,

        • Phillip ure 14.1.1.1
          8 February 2025 at 7:11 pm

          Yet another fun fact is guess which president before trump deported the most refugees .?

          Yep..!..it was Obama..)..

          (colour me surprised ..eh..?..)

          • gsays 14.1.1.1.1
            8 February 2025 at 8:25 pm

            Do you have the numbers?

          • joe90 14.1.1.1.2
            8 February 2025 at 9:12 pm

            deported the most refugees .?

            Undocumented migrants are not refugees.

            […]

            While the Obama administration record is characterized by much higher removals than preceding administrations, it also shows less focus on increasing absolute numbers of overall deportations and a higher priority on targeting the removals of recently arrived unauthorized immigrants and criminals. The administration also placed a much lower priority on removing those who had established roots in U.S. communities and had no criminal records. This prioritization was achieved by a slowly evolving but deliberate policy, highlighted by the administration’s November 2014 executive actions on immigration.

            https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/obama-record-deportations-deporter-chief-or-not

  15. joe90 15
    8 February 2025 at 3:17 pm

    Not a sausage about newly appointed interim chief executive of Health NZ Dale Bramley’s Harkness Fellowship.

    Dale Bramley 2003

    https://harkness.org.nz/fellows/

    The purpose of Harkness Fellowships is to provide mid-career professionals, particularly those focused on healthcare policy and practice, with an opportunity to conduct research in the United States, gaining deep insights into the American healthcare system while building a network for international collaboration and leadership development, ultimately aiming to advance health policy in their home countries; these fellowships are sponsored by the Commonwealth Fund.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360573085/who-dr-dale-bramley-interim-chief-executive-health-nz

  16. SPC 16
    8 February 2025 at 4:11 pm

    racially aggravated harassment

    Calling someone stupid is impolite. But in the UK to call someone white and stupid or black and stupid, one is liable to be charged with this offence.

    In this case it was said of a police officer, he was f….n stupid (and white).

    He made no claim of being offended by the racial comment till 11 months later – after it was decided not to prosecute. And "racial" offence taken, was required for a charge to be made.

    In court he said of this

    Jones asked if his race had “any relevance as far as you can see to what was going on”, and Lovell said “no” and later added that the reference to him being white “upset me, I guess”.

    https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/upset-police-officer-challenged-over-his-motives-in-sam-kerr-prosecution-20250205-p5l9ly.html

    They are spending days of court time over this (5th day so far), and apparently someone is at risk of going to prison for this.

    Given the many occasions where no charge has been made for worse, one has to wonder about the soundness of the UK prosecutors office – and the way police can use their jobs to get someone.

    I hope we have no one like him here in our police force.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/360574157/sam-kerrs-stupid-and-white-remark-racist-stupid-and-black-court-told

    • Macro 16.1
      8 February 2025 at 4:43 pm

      We have more to fear from stupid people than evil ones

      Dietrich Bonhoeffer

      Bonhoeffer argues that stupidity is worse than evil because stupidity can be manipulated and used by evil. He also argues that stupidity tends to go hand-in-hand with acquiring power — that is, being in power means we surrender our individual critical faculties. Evil is easy to identify and fight against; not so with stupidity.

      When we know something or someone is evil, we can take steps to fight it. With stupidity, it is much more difficult.

    • tWig 16.2
      8 February 2025 at 11:22 pm

      The Guardian has been covering this court case. It gives rather nore context on the incident.

      ' Mewis [Kerr's partner] described how she “immediately felt fear for my life” in a locked, speeding taxi. After a night out in London, the pair hailed a black cab back to their home. During the journey, Mewis said Kerr rolled down the windows of the cab and was sick outside. After this, she said the driver pulled over and “started yelling” before he resumed driving in a reckless manner.

      ' She said she had “never driven in a car that fast before” and “tried everything to get out”. She said, after the “initial shock wore off”, she knew she had to do “something dramatic” to save them. In the course of this, the taxi driver called the police.

      ' “I didn’t know if it was a kidnapping or if we were going to crash,” she said. Mewis said she was “kicking straight out with both feet” and broke the car’s window in a bid to escape before it parked outside Twickenham police station – on the instruction of police who answered the taxi driver’s call.

      ' When they went inside the station, Mewis said the police were “dismissive” of their claims'

      'Mewis said the ordeal they relayed to officers would be “different” when repeated back to them. “The way he would say it back would manipulate it back to us,” she told the court.'

      '….prosecutor Bill Emlyn Jones…asked [Kerr] whether she was using Lovell’s “whiteness as an insult”, which she denied.

      ' When pressed again about what “his race had to do with anything”, Kerr said: “I believed it was him using his power and privilege over me because he was accusing me of being something I’m not.” '

      Rather a bit more context, especially when Mewis, who is white, says she has seen Kerr being treated differently many times for not being white.

      • SPC 16.2.1
        9 February 2025 at 8:36 am

        Sure, but the issue is the prosecution being based on mention of him being "white" as racially aggravated harassment (not reason for why she mentioned it) – he was originally offended by being called fn stupid and made up the other part later to get a prosecution.

  18. Morrissey 18
    8 February 2025 at 6:04 pm

    Wallace Shawn: "What Israel is doing is worse than the Nazis. …Demonically evil."

  19. SPC 19
    8 February 2025 at 6:38 pm

    Joyce states the benefit of trade, from bartering, specialisation and commerce finance to the days of the modern nation and aggregation.

    https://archive.li/jZjNO#selection-3967.0-4145.391

    One of the economic concepts that has stayed with me since school is about why we trade, and the benefits of it. Benefits that are so strong that they have built modern society and the great advances and comparatively long lives we enjoy today.

    With trade and currencies, it doesn’t matter if you buy more from one country or another. A two-way trade imbalance is irrelevant to a country’s wealth and strength. It doesn’t matter if you buy more from the US and sell more to China, because currencies themselves can be used to buy from different countries to the ones you sell to.

    Onto Trump.

    The most powerful country on the planet is led by a President who is either wilfully or ignorantly disregarding this economic equivalent of gravity, thereby imperilling his own voters and consumers and their quality of life. In using irrelevant two-way trade imbalances to bully countries into doing things he wants, each time he is dampening the case for wealth-enhancing, cross-border investment and trade.

    He should have noted that the focus on illegal migrants, kulturkampf, big government and trade by the GOP is to distract from growing wealth inequality, more of the business profit going to shareholders than employees, health care affordability and people struggling to do as well as their parents generation.

    And the Trump/Musk mantra of being prepared to move fast and break things is a lesson to governments all over the world, including our own, about the restlessness of voters and their desire to see real change and quickly.

    He notes that Trump is making things worse, like Brexit, change has consequences.

    2025. 55% Brexit wrong, 30% Brexit right.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/

  20. Phillip ure 20
    8 February 2025 at 7:06 pm

    I had lunch with the fruit of the loin today…where we had to chuckle over the fact that there is a raw/('socialist' even?) appeal in the concept of switching government income to inter-government tariffs.. and away from workers incomes..

    Especially as what govts of both stripes both there and here have done..for decades ..moved the burden of taxation away from the rich/corporates..and onto the workers…

    And of course the rise of the right worldwide is because so-called workers parties/the left (both there and here too) failed in their task of protecting the workers…and also bent their knees to the rich/corporates…

    Let's not forget that those failures of the democrats made trump…

    Another curly one was how did we feel about him firing everyone in the CIA..?

    On the one hand it was 'yay..!'..and on the other wondering what his end game for the CIA is..

    Will they still overthrow governments/assassinate people..?..as they have always done…?

    And back here…we risk the same rightwing demagoguery as america is seeing ..

    'cos our left had in their last term the untrammelled power that trump now has ..

    And what did they do with it..?

    Not a lot…eh…?

    • SPC 20.1
      8 February 2025 at 8:21 pm

      inter-government tariffs and away from workers incomes

      The tariffs are collected by governments, but the cost falls on those that purchase the import.

      • Phillip ure 20.1.1
        8 February 2025 at 9:26 pm

        So it is pure user-pays..

        And if tarrifs mean/go hand in hand with real tax cuts for workers..that increase in income should lessen the impact of any increases in the cost of essentials ..

        What's not to love about that..?..from a left point of view…

        • SPC 20.1.1.1
          8 February 2025 at 9:29 pm

          Trump is not cutting taxes for workers, others not workers

        • tWig 20.1.1.2
          8 February 2025 at 11:28 pm

          Yup made this point yesterday. Before tariff removal in NZ, income tax used to be 20% of tax take, business tax, including tariffs, paid the rest.

          Tariffs on imported goods made them expensive to buy. But the basics and NZ products weren't. These days we pay tax on every god and srvice we buy.

  21. Muttonbird 21
    8 February 2025 at 8:30 pm

    Professor Robert Patman is an expert in international relations and a regular interview correspondent for many media organisations in NZ for a number of years.

    It would be difficult to find someone in NZ more knowledgeable about international relations. A student of international convention if you will.

    But he says:

    New Zealand should be robust in its response to the "unacceptable" situation in Gaza but it must also back its allies against threats by the US President, says an international relations expert.

    Otago University professor of international relations Robert Patman said the rest of the world also "should stop tip-toeing" around Donald Trump and must stand up to any threats he makes against allies, no matter how outlandish they seem.

    Professor Robert Patman believes Trump's flip the table approach to geopolitics is a worrying departure from international norms and shouldn't be tolerated.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/541302/new-zealand-must-make-gaza-stance-clear-stop-tip-toeing-around-trump-expert-says

    • Anne 21.1
      8 February 2025 at 9:00 pm

      Patman is right. I am no expert on foreign affairs, but the pussy footing around that is currently occurring is outrageous. I heard Starmer making conciliatory comments a few days ago and claiming a good relationship with Trump. I'm reminded of the "Peace in our time" rumpus in 1939. Have they not learned any lessons? And we have Luxon going to ground and refusing to come up with any response.

      Leaders around the world should be collaborating and presenting a united front in strong opposition to what the Trump/Musk duo are doing. If needs be, throw threats back at them if they continue on this path of total destruction. Its the only language these Hitler copy-cats understand.

      The lily livered approach is dropping all of us into it big time.

      • Muttonbird 21.1.1
        8 February 2025 at 9:14 pm

        Luxon is finding out he's an amateur at this, he's incompetent and irrelevant.

        Winston Peters is under serious pressure having taken on responsibility for Willis' screw up of the ferries and having to work out a response to Trump/Gaza, and dealing with Jones ambitious brain farts, and losing the Cook Islands to China.

        Seymour is ideologically obsessed with himself, nothing else matters to him.

      • SPC 21.1.2
        8 February 2025 at 9:17 pm

        Changes in meaning across time.

        Today

        Lily-livered means weak and cowardly. e.g. I do not want anything to do with lily-livered men like you. Lily is a white flower. Also, if someone is afraid, his face turns white

        Past

        In old folk medicine, courage was associated with the liver. Liver disease (of course) products jaundice, which gives a distinct yellow hue to skin and eyes, and so therefore cowardice became associated with the same condition. Thus we get "yellow bellied" and "lily livered" to indicate a lack of courage.

        • Anne 21.1.2.1
          8 February 2025 at 9:41 pm

          Thanks for the lesson. 😉

          • SPC 21.1.2.1.1
            8 February 2025 at 9:58 pm

            And to endeth the lesson, truth needs to be told while there are white knuckles on the hand of the orange faced man.

            "White knuckles" on the hand usually indicate a state of extreme stress or anxiety, where someone is gripping something so tightly that the blood is temporarily restricted from their fingers, causing them to appear pale or white due to the reduced blood flow

  22. Muttonbird 22
    8 February 2025 at 8:39 pm

    FAO mods: Where are my other comments from today?

    I served my 3 day ban on Thursday night and have since made contributions to the forum which have not yet appeared.

    I emailed the owner of the site about this but am not sure if that's what finally unlocked my account.

    • Incognito 22.1
      8 February 2025 at 9:16 pm

      FYI, people have to be released manually from the ban list; I released you today (@ 16:01 o’clock) when I saw that you’d tried to submit comments.

      When serving a ban (i.e. being on the ban list), all comments get trashed automatically.

      AFAIK, only Lynn can read those TS e-mails, not all Mods (I can’t).

      • Muttonbird 22.1.1
        8 February 2025 at 9:23 pm

        Why was I not released manually on Thursday evening?

        Note to all commenters, they will not release you from a ban of a determined length unless you ask. So you might keep contributing to the socially conscious cause in the hope those comment might be released and seen, but they will not be seen, those comments are by the mods definition, trash.

        You have to ask first, then wait and keep testing until one finally gets through.

        • Incognito 22.1.1.1
          8 February 2025 at 10:09 pm

          Why was I not released manually on Thursday evening?

          Seriously??

          Note to all commenters, they will not release you from a ban of a determined length unless you ask.

          Incorrect and misleading; Mods do what they can, when they can, without being asked necessarily. Unfortunately, some entitled people are too impatient and expect prompt service 24/7.

          So you might keep contributing to the socially conscious cause in the hope those comment might be released and seen, but they will not be seen, those comments are by the mods definition, trash.

          Again, incorrect and highly disingenuous; the system automatically blocks comments of commenters in the ban list – I believe Lynn is working on automating lifting bans and allowing comments to appear again. Neither the system (a stupid machine) nor the Mods, for that matter, pass any judgment on blocked comments. Many, but not all (!), blocked comments are from shitposters who tend to submit trash comments indeed. NB, when comments are blocked it almost always is because of the behaviour of the commenter not because of the quality or content of their/his/her comments although this may be a contributing factor but never the reason per se.

          You have to ask first, then wait and keep testing until one finally gets through.

          Saying it three times still doesn’t change this false fact into a truth. A little bit of patience and politeness go a long way, both of which you’re deprived of. That said, if you’re not happy with the way TS operates and/or the ‘service’ here – TS is run by a tiny few volunteers with busy lives and is entirely free with no fucking ads – then feel free to go to the nearest exit and go to another blog or start your own blog.

          • Muttonbird 22.1.1.1.1
            8 February 2025 at 10:20 pm

            I was patient. I waited two days before I resumed contributions. Didn't make any difference because no one could be bothered managing their own bans, and there aren’t many.

            Happy to volunteer if y'all under the pump.

            [I was the one that banned you. My political mind is currently full of making sense of actual fascism being rolled out in the US and what that might mean for the rest of the world. Meanwhile, here you are whining about being forgotten for a few days, and then basically making shit up about moderation.

            You clearly don’t respect moderation here, that’s a long pattern of behavious, and given what’s going on in the world, I’m not willing to prioritise pandering to you. Incognito’s done a good job of explaining how things work here and you just spit in their face. Away you go MB. 1 month ban, because I can’t be bothered managing dickheads atm. Consider yourself lucky it’s not 6 or 12 months, but it probably will be next time – weka]

            [ban doubled for having a go at mods and moderation after the fact, and telling us what to do. – weka]

            • Incognito 22.1.1.1.1.1
              8 February 2025 at 10:23 pm

              Where is your correction and apology?

              • Muttonbird …
                8 February 2025 at 10:28 pm

                For what? I was supposed to be released on Thursday night. Not hard.

                Where’s your apology?

                • Incognito …
                  8 February 2025 at 10:46 pm

                  Your apology for making up false facts about this site and its moderation, and trying to manipulate and mislead the TS commentariat. And for being impatient and entitled, and demanding prompt ‘service’ and an apology from ‘Management’.

            • weka 22.1.1.1.1.2
              8 February 2025 at 11:26 pm

              Mod note.

              I quite like moderating, because it's about maintaining community in a state that works, and this makes for good politics.

              One of the things that annoys me about it though is that moderation takes time away from writing posts.

              I think it's reasonable that in the past few days when I've been busy I've been more aware of the fact that there's been few new posts going up, than remembering to go look in the ban list to see who needs to be released.

              I love the commentariat here and see the commenters are essential to the site, but the site exists for its own reasons, not primarily for commenters. Authors and posts are central to TS existing. Without them, there would be nowhere to comment. I think some commenters forget this at times.

            • weka 22.1.1.1.1.3
              9 February 2025 at 10:12 am

              2nd mod note.

  23. SPC 23
    8 February 2025 at 9:42 pm

    Duncan Garner

    “I look at where New Zealand is today, and the multi-ethnic, multi-dimensional aspect, and I’m horrified by the prospect that by 2040 there could be 7 million of us in New Zealand, so if iwi are concerned about what they sense as marginalisation, how come no iwi leader is standing with me and challenging the mass immigration coming into New Zealand?

    “Not one single iwi leader. But no, they carry on about these esoteric things to do with a new Parliament or treaty principles and another 100,000 come into New Zealand. To me, that’s more of a threat to our coherence and to the foundation influences that have built. I’m a voice in the wilderness, no iwi would ever stand with me on this issue.”

    Jones continues to stand by his concerns and to voice them, but the silence of iwi leaders is deafening. I can’t recall any of our pre-eminent Māori leaders saying anything or voicing their concerns, perhaps because they’re focussed on opposing David Seymour and running their own iwi affairs.

    But does that mean they’re looking the wrong way and missing the main game?

    https://archive.li/TWRNB#selection-1225.101-1239.75

    Turia 2007

    Government does not see that a Treaty obligation exists in relation to immigration. The Maori Party contends, that until they do, no immigration policy can have any legitimacy.

    We believe, that as the Treaty partner, Mâori should be consulted on every aspect concerning migrants who wish to reside here

    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0708/S00302.htm

    Turia 2008

    Maori Party co-leader Tariana Turia says reaction to the party's immigration policy shows many people who come to live in New Zealand are hostile to Maori concerns.

    The policy calls for completion of a course on the history of Aotearoa and the Pacific as a condition of receiving citizenship, but Mrs Turia says reaction to the proposal is concerning.

    "Because that tells us we have got people coming into this country who bring with them the prejudices of their own country here, and have no desire to have a relationship with tangata whenua and nor do they want to integrate fully into the life of this country."

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/election-2008/86529/maori-party-says-many-immigrants-don%27t-want-to-integrate

    Tahu Kukutai

    Among the obstacles, though, in making progress down the path that you and Arama are advocating is the reality that the Treaty hasn’t been honoured and Māori don’t have the tino rangatiratanga promised in the Treaty. So Māori influence is limited.

    https://e-tangata.co.nz/comment-and-analysis/its-time-for-maori-to-be-heard-on-immigration-policy/

    • SPC 23.1
      8 February 2025 at 9:50 pm

      Post 2008 Turia moved onto whanau ora (retired 2014).

      Sharples focused on the 2016 signing of UNDRIP.

      It seems attacks on Maori as xenophobic maybe a factor.

      2023

      Te Pāti Māori has apologised to migrant and refugee communities for allowing what it described as "harmful narratives" on its website.

      RNZ has found an example of one such removal.

      The party's Whānau Build policy, published in August 2021, laid out the party's plans to address the housing crisis, and contained a section on an "indigenous first" framework. RNZ viewed the policy through Wayback Machine.

      The policy said Te Pāti Māori would ensure immigration was curbed until the supply of housing met demand.

      "It is important to still manaaki our refugee and displaced whanaunga and bring in skills where required. But for us to exercise manaaki we have to commit to indigenous first so that we can then support others later," it said.

      This section of the policy has now been removed.

      Te Pāti Māori now said it would treat everybody how they would be treated on a marae.

      "That means everyone will be welcomed, everyone will be fed, everyone will be housed, everyone will kept safe, and everyone will be loved. Manaakitanga & Te Tiriti o Waitangi is the foundation of all of our policies moving forward."

      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/496840/te-pati-maori-apologises-to-refugees-and-migrant-communities-for-harmful-narratives

  24. Joe90 24
    8 February 2025 at 10:52 pm

    tRump’s war on science

    Intro:

    This is a long post, and it just keeps getting longer although I keep removing curse words. If you only have time for some of it, see Part Two and Part Six.

    It's become apparent that the Trump Administration is trying to make major changes to the way that the scientific funding agencies of the US government operate. That's about as neutrally as I can put it: my own opinion is that said changes (as they appear at the moment) are an outrage, a vindictive ideological assault on agencies that (for all their flaws) have helped produce major scientific advances in more fields than I can name. But let's go into the details so you can see why I think that way.

    https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/what-s-happening-inside-nih

    • Incognito 24.1
      9 February 2025 at 1:15 pm

      A very good summary of the attempted destruction of science (both the actual research and the enabling system with its many components) in the US.

      There are shades & echoes of this here in NZ with the scraping of government language and documents of certain words & terms and the defunding of humanities and social science (Hass) research in NZ.

      ‘Existential threat’ to New Zealand humanities as grants shut off

      The bigger picture, here in NZ and in the US, is the dismantling of the State and the attack on the autonomy and independence of academics.

      The MO is similar too here in NZ: fear and disruption. For example, key positions not being filled, delays in releasing key reports, signalling funding cuts and then disestablishing whole agencies without a clear transition plan for affected staff, a refusal to commit to current levels of public funding for science and universities let alone promising a coherent plan for much-needed increased public funding, et cetera.

    • Macro 24.2
      9 February 2025 at 5:06 pm

      And Medical Research!

      Trump administration to cut billions in medical research funding

      National Institutes of Health said the $4bn loss will affect ‘indirect’ funding of buildings, equipment and staff