"It’s a deceptively complicated question: What is a..?"
[Hi Robert, as per my earlier comment, you’re in premod until you respond to these two mod requests. This means your comments won’t appear on site until then.
Assuming the question in question is the question "what is a woman".
Well, our cave ancestors all those millenia ago managed to figure it out, so I don't understand why some in modern day civilisation are have so much trouble. 😉
Yes it was tongue in cheek Shanreagh. Glad you picked up on it and replied in kind. 🙂
We are never going to fully agree on this issue. Our viewpoints are often a result of past experiences, and I did have a very unusual experience which perhaps has coloured my personal view.
They have always known what a woman was. They knew when they refused us any legal rights. They knew when they demanded access to our bodies for sex and used force if we declined. They knew when they paid us less, fired us for getting engaged or married, and would not let us do certain jobs. Up to about 5 years ago, they knew.
Now, they just pretend they don't.
They pretend they don't know for 2 reasons.
The first is that it suits them to pretend they don't know. They resented our attempts to be our own people, to have our own rights and protections. They resented our rights to say "no". Many of them are very happy to employ that old male enforcement – violence and the threat of violence – especially sexual violence. They really want us to know that they are violent – so they write it on their placards. "TERFS can suck my big Trans cock".
The second is that it is convenient to not know. And it is fashionable. A lot of $$$$ has gone in to making sure that people have all the excuses in the world to not know. They have been told that it is about Gay rights, about human rights, that it is about a vulnerable and oppressed minority.
The question is also an indication of your fealty or otherwise to the ideology. Putting your pronouns on your email signature, calling people "cis" , wearing a button or a lanyard is just as much a statement of belief as wearing a crucifix or similar.
The answer is going to annoy one group or another.
If the answer is the dictionary definition "Adult, Human Female", the wrath of the Transcult will descend on you.
If the answer is "anyone who says they are", which is the correct ideological statement, about 90% of the population will say "what"?
Imagine the confusion when the Titanic went down and it was women & children first to the lifeboats but nobody could answer that quintessential existential life-saving question
Luxon has had the luxury of seeing Chippy stumble and his pr have been able to formulate a soundbyte for him. There is no way if blindsided he could’ve given a coherent answer.
Yes and what surprises me about Hipkins is that given the PP rally and media interest that one of his team had not already flagged that this could be something that could be asked at anytime by media and front footed it. I think Ardern would have had a succinct reply in reserve.
I'm guessing its a function of No Debate. If you believe that GI is virtuous and GC is right wing bigotry, then you will be listening to NZ's version of Stonewall instead of feminists who have been pointing and saying 'look, there's a political shitstorm for the left in the UK around women's sex based rights'.
Even with Sturgeon the mainstream progressive narrative was burnout, misogynistic abuse, and maybe her husband's financial mess. Whereas to anyone paying actual attention past No Debate, that Sturgeon interview where she said the rapist was a TW but wouldn't say if he was a woman was a masterclass is how to fuck one's career and political party.
I agree. And yet this has been playing out in the UK for a long time, so why weren't Labour prepared? It's almost like they don't know there is a gender/sex war going on and have bought into the idea that GC pol is based in bigotry and doesn't have any coherent politics or arguments. I hope Hipkins' PR and prep people got a talking to.
Hi Robert, I've read your note in the back end and won't publish as requested.
One of the problems here is that both sides are not taking notice of moderation. I've been cutting you, Shanreagh, Molly etc slack, hoping you would sort it out. I can see that neither side is willing, so will be moderating sooner from now on across the board. This is election year and the only way this site can have a functional commentariat is if moderation is respected. The entrenched conflict in the past few weeks is not unusual here, I've seen it many times before. If commenters don't work within the boundaries of the site there is no way to get out of that.
The bottom line is that commenters cannot ignore moderation. In this case, I've asked you to link to something for evidence, and to clarify your soundbite comment. You've refused, twice, to do so. I don't know why you've refused, but we have moderation for a reason and it's really clear that there are patterns of behaviour on both sides that are causing problems. What I am moderating you for is consistent with moderation across all commenters and over a long period of time. I'm afraid I cannot treat you differently to other commenters in that respect.
I don't consider that you are trolling, so you are wrong about that. That is yet another example of how communication has broken down. I also object to your characterisation of my position in all this, because you simply haven't had any real conversations with me about my views, values and politics.
What I do know is that TS works best when people bring their thinking and arguments to the table, and present them in clean ways largely free of abuse. Both sides have been failing on this.
I will be looking at who ignored my general moderation notes the other day (haven't had time until now), and reminding them. If you decide to come back I'm thinking two things. One is that if you continue to ignore moderation and treat the place as if the rules don't apply to you, then you will most likely get banned again, and eventually a long ban. Two is that if you feel unfairly treated by commenters, then please contact one of the mods and explain what you see the problem is. Without that it's hard to act.
Incognito is aware of all of this too, I'll leave it to them to comment if they want.
In my opinion the tolerance you showed to that contributor seemed endless.
We are poles apart politically Weka, but I doubt you have lost friends, you certainly have gained my respect in making what I suspect was, for you, a difficult call.
I moderated here for about 10 yrs before giving it away; it is not an easy task, and at moments a total bitch. On this matter I would say weka is speaking total truth.
The primary problem was not moderation. Believing this is missing the (main) point. Propagating it is diverting and/or deflecting away from taking ownership and thus of avoiding responsibility, which is ironically typical of the whole debate debacle.
Any strong relationship can withstand the occasional argument & disagreement. How you work through it, with trust and respect, is something for the two people involved to decide, and IMO is better done off-line.
I'm not sure who you mean is not taking responsibility, but from my perspective the primary problem was moderation and disrespect of it, and me (atm, it could be any mod though). Not just with RG either.
I disagree! Moderation became an (not the) issue later on when things were already going off the rails badly. It may have been or become the issue for you as Mod, especially once you put on your Mod hat.
Yes, disrespecting other commenters and Mods in particular has become a bit of an issue across the board. Because of this and because it is Election Year (and because I’m very busy with my paid job) I have shortened my Mod fuse.
I’ve said this before, just recently in a comment, when one is banned, a contributing factor is often other comments/commenters – bans are almost never ‘single-car accidents’, i.e., entirely self-inflicted. In my opinion, this was a large factor in the repeated dismissal of Robert’s comments and ultimately of his dismissal from this site. Undoubtedly, others won’t see it the same way (at all?) and (completely?) wash their hands off it, which is reflective (and symptomatic) of some of the things that have been and are still being said here since (but also before) the Albert Park event.
Wading into ‘the debate’ is like walking into a North-Korean minefield playing Russian roulette with a loaded double-barrel shotgun with an inevitable fate (demise) awaiting. For some, despite good intentions …
I disagree! Moderation became an (not the) issue later on when things were already going off the rails badly.
so what is the issue then?
Yes, patterns of behaviour arise in the context of debates that involve other people. But anyone who takes the position that the rules don't apply to them and they can just ignore them, is obviously a problem for maintaining robust debate.
There were problems on all sides, but this one today came down to the basics. I can't see how it is tenable to have people here who believe that they can do what they like without regards for the debate norms and moderation.
I intervened a number of times before today and both sides appear to have been ignoring that. I let it slide. Won't be doing that again.
The way I see it things were derailing badly well before you started formally modding and I’ve already said this. That was the primary issue – and it remains unresolved now Robert has been red-carded and sent off the field.
Other commenters can be quite persistent too and some have disappeared for good or copped long bans – the ban list is getting longer. The ones that keep trying need to walk a very fine line, which begs the question whether this is the debate people here want and on those terms.
Yes, not properly responding to Mod notes justifies a ban, no question about it and I don’t care who it is but I tend to give some people (a little) more credit than others based on track record and history of behaviour. I think you do too. Actually, I do care and find it harder to ban some than others …
At that point, and from Robert’s perspective, the outcomes were inevitable.
From my perspective, as TS commenter, it is regrettable.
The way I see it things were derailing badly well before you started formally modding and I’ve already said this.
Ok. Can you please explain how you see the things that were derailing badly? People were in a right over quite a number of days, which is no unusual for TS. I don't see how that per se is the problem here. Are you saying that it was a failure of moderation in addition to people doing something (as yet unnamed)?
I have never rated Luke Malpass and the first part of this article reinforces why I do not.
First of all it is clear that he has talking points:
'Culture Wars'
Ever since Plunket asked his questions of the PM this has been framed as a 'culture war' imported from overseas conveniently forgetting that NZ women fought hard against the NO Debate: Self ID concept. SUFW was taken to court by people seeking to have a declaration made that SUFW was a hate group for running a meeting where women could speak about No Debate.
The framing of the issue as a culture war is to minimise what is happening. It relegates it to an issue not much more important than whether exposure to all sorts of music, singing is good for developing minds….interesting but not seen as important in the 'heavy & weighty' ideas of government or should I provocatively say male politicians and journalists? .
It's a done deal
'however, it was effectively put to bed in December 2021 with a law passed that allows for gender self-identification on birth certificates. It will come into effect in 2023.
The interesting thing about this is that there appears no real appetite among elected officials to get into a culture war on this issue leading into the election'.
legislation is not static. Just because it is there does not mean
1 it is good legislation
2 it deserves to be there forever.
All parties I think were dealt a very clever snow job in relation to Self ID. It was framed as an equitable and perhaps honourable thing to help a so-called marginalised group. From its earliest appearance this concept has caused concern amongst women
From at least 2018 in UK there was concerns that led to the billboards
I think it's relevant to add that despite the #NoDebate political and public climate, 6,609 submissions were made in terms of the changes to BDMRR in 2021:
Of the 6,609 submissions, 73% are against the changes with just 25% supportive of them!
The remaining 2% represent duplicated/ supplemental/ unclear submissions.
Of the 73% of submissions that are against the changes, 20% are either stated to support SUFW or appear to have been created using our submission builder.
Numbers on their own are rather meaningless and only useful to bean counters and amateur statisticians with an abacus – not all submissions are equal in the same way as not all comments here on TS are equal when it comes to constructive debate.
Numbers can be indicative, even if they are not conclusive.
IIRC, SUFW had more details of their analysis on their Facebook account at the time, but I don't have a Facebook account, so just provided the link and quote I had booked.
Those numbers are indicative of how emotive the topic-issue is, IMO. They tell us nothing about the content of the submissions other than a most-superficial binary categorisation of “For” vs. “Against”. This might be good enough for some to base conclusions on that can feed into a narrative but it is a mug’s game nonetheless. A unanimous vote in Parliament as the legislative end result has more weight, which does not mean that we have achieved perfection.
The more this becomes a political issue, which has the potential to gut the vote to political parties, the more their self-interest will encourage them to change.
All parties I think were dealt a very clever snow job in relation to Self ID. It was framed as an equitable and perhaps honourable thing to help a so-called marginalised group. From its earliest appearance this concept has caused concern amongst women
Are you not prepared to accept that it does cause concern amongst women?
I think a provision about biological sex such as RT Hon Kemi Badenoche has said she will investigate could go along way. It works from the UK Equality Act
There is reference to safe spaces in our legislation that was put out as being able to lessen the concern for women. I am not sure it is strong enough to withstand legal challenges from the very wealthy trans lobby.
Your last sentence was not practical advice. It was designed to place me in the echelon of so called 'deluded' women like the ones who will huge amounts of money to the Battersea Dogs Home or Margaret Doucan who donated $10,00s to the Wellington SPCA. All served to me with a snide side of religious stuff …..St Jude.
I have been donating to the only organisation that I believe is trying to make a difference and that is Speak Up for Women.
Unfortunately to do this I have had to stop the admittedly small donation/s I was making to NZ Labour and NZ Greens. But I am sure you will be able to cover these donations by upping yours so they can both continue on their female exclusionary ways.
I have also bought myself T shirts ex PP and one ex Mana Korero Wahine.
Labour may get my party vote depending on how they shape up with climate change and 3 Waters.
I am unsure of the candidate yet. It won't be the Labour one though as our local was one of the shouters outside the SUFW meeting trying to debate the No Debate ideology. ie trying to disrupt the free speech of others.
I actually know I won't get much traction here……I've been commenting here on women's issues long enough and this issue in particular to know that. There are a good band of women here who I value and a few open hearted males who are trying to understand the issues and who I also value. I comment mainly to inform this group.
I do derive sustenance from and access to some sparkling research from Twitter and blogs from around the world. I have brought some of it here from time to time to move/inform the argument from a left woman's point of view.
I also try not to insult or belittle others in the pursuit of my women’s issues.
Too be clear,I’m speaking of you ADVantage.
Don't no whats wrong with you fellow,do you think your better/smarter than the rest of us. How about less of the ad hominem.
Yes but as you will see Ad and Incognito the public didn't support this bill. It was introduced by stealth and never campaigned on.
I think you will find that as more people realize how gender ideology has infiltrated the GReens and the Labour Party, the public service and the msm and start to realize what it is all about, even more people will swing in against self id.
Despite the massive hit job by the msm, politicians and the Labour Party, people saw with their own eyes what happens when you stand up to tras. Saturday Albert Park a day of great shame. Women there to listen peacefully to other women, threatened, assaulted, spat at and police activity avoiding intervening. Of course the pure trans joy crowd don't realize what a peaking experience this has been for many. People see with their own eyes the sort of authoritarianism that shuts down peaceful protest by women.
There is a new gender critial group on FB that in a week gannered nearly 2000 women in under a week. SUFW has been deluged with women wanting to join since Posie. If you read the comments in the Daily Blog, a left wing blog, the overwhelming majority are disgusted with gender ideology and what happened in Albert Park. They are saying they won't vote Greens.
Re an unanious vote in Parliament for the bill. The truth is many who don't agree with gender ideology are too scared to speak up. Politicians know that up till now it was career ending to defy the authoritarian cult of gender.
Let's accept then that there is no way the law will be changed in this Parliament or the next.
Let's also accept just for arguments' sake that no political party with MPs, and no current Member of Parliament, wants to change the law either.
What then is your practical avenue for your voice of concern about women being deprived of human rights here?
If some great pool of latent fear that New Zealand human rights really is being stripped away, then your legitimate avenue is to take case to the Human Rights Commission.
Go for it. Make the case and the report will be tabled in Parliament.
If you see some human activity that needs greater regulation, trust me New Zealand is one of the most law-regulated countries in the world, and you will find a regulator to take a case with.
Thanks Ad for the advice. We are strategising all the time on this.
We have taken a lot of heart from the own goal the tras at Albert Park scored.
The current Human Rights Commissioner was at Civic Square in Wellington on the 26th with the trans rights activists. After the violence in Albert Park, we were too scared to go to Civic Square, especially after the Wellington Mayor, Tory Whanau, had promised Let Women Speak the same response they got at Albert Park. We did meet to support each other. There we a lot of shocked women, who couldn't believe yet again their voice had been shut down, this time by violence and intimidation.
Paul Hunt is no friend to us. We will have to wait for the new government in October (I hope) to bring in a commissioner who is concerned with everyone's human rights.
Paul Hunt is no friend to us. We will have to wait for the new government in October (I hope) to bring in a commissioner who is concerned with everyone's human rights.
Glaring by its omission is the lack of confirmation that women have rights as well.
It could have easily been inserted in the paragraph confirming that trans people have rights……here:
As Te Kāhui Tika Tangata Human Rights Commission, we affirm that trans rights are human rights. These rights are grounded in international covenants, conventions, and declarations, and reinforced by the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act and Human Rights Act. By affirming trans rights, we are doing the job given to us by Parliament.
The Let Women Speak campaign has as one part, to stop the notion that giving rights to one section of our community means taking them away from other sectors.
I feel very sad that a practitioner/leader in the rights movement sees no need to reassure women that our rights will not be trampled on and will be respected.
Plus I do think that giving voice to unresearched talking points about the prevalence of human rights breaches in the trans community, that is a tiny part of our community is regrettable
There has been research done on these talking points.
Last but not least I am sad that you have to relate to women by using a made up word that places women (around 51%) and our roles/lives in a subordinate position in the world to the tiny trans community.
I believe that our trans community is deserving of living happy and free lives but not at at the expense of women.'
I have no doubt I will not get an acknowledgement/reply. Too hard, you know 'awkward'.
I have forwarded it on to SUFW who have acknowledged it.
It's comments like this that make me lament the fate of humankind.
We have a marginalized community being targeted by another marginalized community with no give on either side and both sides high on rhetoric and low on facts.
Where are the practical examples of a man falsely claiming to be a women to enter a safe space for women where he only was able to because of self-id? The actual women I have talked to are not worried about it because that same male could do that now if they wanted to, with or without a law…
Surely there could be some actual discussion on this where the Trans community is treated with respect and women feel safe?
Although I am not convinced any real woman is feeling unsafe because of this law as it seems more and more to be imported outrage manufactured to incite people who should know better… but then i wouldn't actually know… that is just my view from the outside looking in
Next we will be talking about the trans-agenda in schools and how they are brain washing our kids…
We have a marginalized community being targeted by another marginalized community with no give on either side and both sides high on rhetoric and low on facts.
So far, so rhetorical. Where are your facts?
"Where are the practical examples of a man falsely claiming to be a women to enter a safe space for women where he only was able to because of self-id?"
Convoluted way of saying that any man – if they so wish – can enter a female-only space, so why not break those single-sex boundaries?
When single-sex provisions are protected by legislation, policy and guidelines, breaching of single-sex boundaries are more noticeable and easily identified. The fact that this kind of argument is accepted as evidence of no harm, has led to the elimination of single-sex provisions in many policies and guidelines.
"The actual women I have talked to are not worried about it because that same male could do that now if they wanted to, with or without a law…"
That is not the issue. Your actual women have not considered the wider impacts, although they are right on this to a degree.
"Surely there could be some actual discussion on this where the Trans community is treated with respect and women feel safe?"
Women do not have to feel unsafe to say "No." Although it may be a factor for some, it is not the only one.
Trans community are treated equally to everybody else when they are requested to use the facility provided for their sex-category. That is equality. That is respect.
"Next we will be talking about the trans-agenda in schools and how they are brain washing our kids…"
I would add that it is hard to argue that the trans community is marginalized when they are so embedded in Government depts, msm and education etc etc. That line doesn’t stack up. They have more power and influence than almost any other group. Why do people think Hipkins was so reluctant to give a straight forward answer about what is a women..
And the police response in Albert Park, seem to indicate that tras are influencing the police
See now I know you have no desire to see anything work out… and why I know that this shit is just transphobia and possibly an attempt to get fundamentalist dogma as law… it may be the top of the slippery slope but it is still part of the same hill…
Trans need the safe spaces for the same reason women do,because we have a society which had spent hundreds of years allowing SDE men to think they can do what they want with other people's bodies… sure we could spend some time and energy on fixing that but then we couldn't demonize a whole other
One word for you "Fool" – autogynephilia. We are not talking Carmen and Georgina here. We are talking about Gender Ideology. We are talking about men who are sexually aroused by the thought of themselves as women. Mostly straight men. Sexually attracted to women.
women's sex based rights aren't fundamentalism. But I agree that the war is getting so partisan that some people are now refusing to have any sense of rapprochement. Both sides are doing this. It's the worst political fight I have ever seen.
"Trans need the safe spaces for the same reason women do,because we have a society which had spent hundreds of years allowing SDE men to think they can do what they want with other people's bodies… sure we could spend some time and energy on fixing that but then we couldn't demonize a whole other"
Everyone needs a safe space. Not necessarily for the same reasons.
Since you are advocating for facts, could you provide some to answer these initial questions about safety, that I posted in response to a comment made by Kit several days ago:
Single-sex provisions are because there are material, practical, privacy, dignity, fairness and safety reasons that returns value to all for such categories.
Safety is only one factor for the provision of single-sex spaces but since it is the one you focus on, let's address it:
1. Safeguarding is based on risk assessment statistics. That evidence provides the criteria for the best broad stroke categories that will significantly reduce the likelihood of harm for all users. In cases where users are in various states of undress or vulnerable, the provision category that provides the best outcomes is that of sex.
2. Therefore, the continuation of the benefit is reliant on maintaining single-sex spaces.
3. A compelling argument supported by robust evidence is required before single-sex provisions should be relinquished.
4. What kind of evidence should be part of the discussion?
a. Are men who identify as women included in current safeguarding statistics? (Yes.)
b. Is there evidence that men who identify as women pose a significantly lower risk than any other man? (No, statistically they hold the same risk factor. In fact, in terms of convictions, their risk for sexual offences is higher than men without gender identities)
c. Are they are higher degrees of risk if they continue to use the single-sex provision that they belong to? (There has never been any evidence put forward that this is the case, it is often an assumption that other men are unable to cope with a non-conforming male.)
d. If they are at higher degree or risk, is it higher than other vulnerable males? (ie. unaccompanied children, males with mobility issues, males impaired by substance abuse, homeless males, males with mental incapacity etc. I can think of many men who are vulnerable in ways that Alex Drummond from Stonewall is not, and they still respect the boundaries of single-sex provision)
e. That vulnerability – when it is finally evidenced and defined – still must be of such statistical significance that it outweighs the benefits (in terms of safeguarding only) of division by sex.
People within the transgender community are being treated equally to everyone else when they are expected to respect the social contract and boundaries of single-sex provisions.
They are not excluded in any way, because they are included with all others of their sex, in those single-sex provisions.
"All human beings need to be able to access public bathrooms, and those bathrooms need to be places of safety and security. "
Yes. As mentioned provision divided by sex, delivers that to a high degree.
Trans people by every measure are at the greatest risk of violence when made to use the wrong bathroom,
This is rhetoric unless it is supported by robust and impartially collected statistical data. Have you got any?
and are the only group society considers it acceptable to deny the use of these public spaces at all"
Not true. They can use the public space of their sex category without impediment.
If you are, I am not religious at all, let alone fundamentalist.
"You have know desire to have anything work out". Well we gender critical people have never been engaged with by politicians etc who maybe we could have worked things out with"
I reject the accusation of transphobia. It is the response of people who have no proper arguements. About a month ago I was in our local dairy and had a very pleasant interaction with a trans woman. I know he was a man, his voice, height and hands gave it away. But I take people as I find them. But women fought hard for their sex based rights and anyone encroaching on that will not be welcome by me.
You know what……it isn't my job to have things work out for trans people. That is up to them to lobby for their own safe spaces. I would encourage them to do so without imposing on ours.
Why do you fight with fundamentalist arguments then? why do you make transphobic statements? seems strange to me for someone who is neither of these things
You fool can you tell me what of my arguements are "fundamentalist"?
What statements have I made that are transphobic? I never quite understand what that word means.
I got peaked into being gender critical because a very dear relative of mine and her partner (lesbians) have faced harrasment and intimidation and cancellation by trans rights activists. It was vicious and the shutting down of the two lesbian women was abhorant to me. This has nothing to do with trans people but the activists involved in this malicious activity (who may have been trans, heterosexual, gay whatever). Their activism centred around a compulsion to say that trans women are real women. Neither my relative or her partner could say that, because they don't believe it. Neither do I. I don't believe it is possible to change your sex, there is overwhelming evidence that this is the case and I refused to be coerced into saying so. that is one of the many signs to me that gender ideology has strong authoritarian tendcancies. Confirmed of course by an angry mob shutting women down with violence and intimidation.
"I'm (not?) going to go back to the fact that that nasty sweaty man in pink, actually came over and spoke to me beforehand, and I said "You're not going to hurt us – are you?" and he said, I'm the organiser of the counter-protest and – um – I've just come to see what you are doing. And then he went off, and said, I've got a call here from the police. They're meeting me. And that was at about…."
(Plunket interrupts: Whoa, Hang on. So, the police would meet with him, but not you?)
"…Absolutely. Absolutely. I saw the number come up on his phone. Absolutely,"
"And the police response in Albert Park, seem to indicate that tras are influencing the police"
Here's another explanation. Many people in NZ want to be kind to trans people, and thus support their push for rights without understanding the issues very well. Some New Zealanders have people they care about who are trans and their rights matter a great deal to them. It doesn't require a TRA/police conspiracy theory to try and make sense of what happened, nor does it require making trans people the enemy.
We don't know what happened other than the police didn't do their job. We don't know why or who was involved in the decisions. With luck we will eventually know once the events are investigate by the PCA.
The women in the link I provided, is relating her experience as the police liaison for the event. She said that up until the 26 March, her contact with the police was as expected, professional, detailed and open.
It was only on the day, when there was a failure to meet set appointments, or organise the barriers, or return calls that her experience was negative.
I don't think reporting her experience – is coming to any sort of conclusion. It does however – raise possible questions – or directions for OIA's to be submitted to get clarification.
I don't think describing that the police were absent despite liaising with the Let women speak group for weeks before, is a conspiracy theory. It is what is being reported and is easily viewed in the on-line footage at Albert Park.
On another note the Police were at the Michael Fowler centre for Pride in 2021 when a gender critical woman , a lesbian tried to gain access to the event and was refused because of her gender critical views. The police attended in order to exclude this frail, elderly women.
To keep balance though, I note PP was very grateful to the police who kept her safe and saw her out of the country. She said the were great.
If you conflate gender/trans ideology/TRAs, with trans people generally, like you just have, then you will get people like You_Fool calling you transphobic and with some justification. This is an own goal and it's utterly unnecessary.
I didn't used to use it because it seemed like people were trying to make a connection between MRA (men's rights activists who are anti feminist and often sexist/misogynistic), but now I think things have moved on sufficiently that it's accurate enough.
It's important to see a distinction between trans people (who believe a range of things just like other groups do), and the activists pushing gender identity ideology. Trans people deserver respect and to have their rights upheld like other people do. TRAs deserve to have their positions and values challenged for the regressive politics they are and for the negative impact on women, lesbians/gays, and children
I use it for shorthand for trans rights activists. A lot of these people aren't transgender.
I heard a lesbian women talking about Albert Park and her perspective is that the Rainbow community now includes some heterosexual people who refer to themselves as non binary.
To date no one has ever given me a satisfactory definition of non binary.
Hi You Fool have responded to your question about my "fundamentalist" beliefs and "transphobia". Didn't seem to be able to reply to your question about this, but it is on this thread.
My big question no one from the trans side is answering is
Why does the safe space for the trans community have to be the same safe spaces that are precious to women?
Trans community are treated equally to everybody else when they are requested to use the facility provided for their sex-category. That is equality. That is respect.
Surely if transpeople are unsafe using the facility for their sex then the work needs to be done around making not only the facilities better say more cubicles (I don't know) or men's attitudes to non conforming males.
I have not had an answer, except the response from Visubversa. This response is so common world wide when we seek to understand why, that I have no reason to doubt it.
……autogynephilia. We are not talking Carmen and Georgina here. We are talking about Gender Ideology. We are talking about men who are sexually aroused by the thought of themselves as women. Mostly straight men. Sexually attracted to women.
But You_fool hopefully may be able to let us know……..please.
It would move the debate along immeasurably.
We would know then about building/maintaining/altering separate safe spaces for women and the Trans community easily accommodated I would have thought in the current men's spaces. Plus getting behind an attitudinal change to ensure that men are more accepting of gender non conforming males.
Good question, why isn't it been talked about? Or if it has why is one side ignoring the other about it?
This is actually my primary issue, we have women's rights basically descending into all-out transphobia that seems to be stoked by fundamentalist christian/religious ideals vs a trans community which is now being attacked and ostracised on 2 side
Why is it that this can only be about yelling at each other?
No one answered my question, what is it about self-id that inherently makes women unsafe? Or if you prefer, what is it about self-id that makes a women less of a women? As far as I can see the only arguments have nothing to do with Self-ID as all the worries would be the same with out self-id if the offending male wanted to offend all the same. Nothing changes
Self ID is both a legislative change and a sociopolitical change. It means that any man at any time can say they are a women and must be treated as if that is literally true.
This has led to rapists being housed in women's prisons and sexually assaulting women prisoners.
That has already happened. Women are so angry now, because we told society this would happen and we got told to shut the fuck up bigot terfs.
The prison example is just the most obvious and easy one to use to explain the problem. I'm happy to talk about other aspects if you want.
Generally gender conforming men don't use women's spaces. So when a man is in a women's toilet for example, it's going to get challenged. Self ID undermines that because we are being told that any man can be a woman. Self ID means that any man can be a TW without any kind of transition at all.
Women cannot predict which males will be violent to women. This is why we have single sex spaces. From this safety perspective, there is no difference between men, men pretending to be women, and TW. They are all male and of the class of people that commit violence against women in sufficient numbers and times to require female only spaces.
There are other reasons for women's spaces too, not just safety. Privacy, dignity, women's culture.
Good question, why isn't it been talked about? Or if it has why is one side ignoring the other about it?
No Debate has been an intentional political strategy, started by UK trans lobby group Stonewall and enforced first by liberals and then by institutions. People who spoke up, mainly but not only women, have lost their jobs/careers, been doxxed, been abused, had police harassment, been arrested for tweeting.
Because of that, many, many people are afraid to speak, because of risk to their jobs, careers, and social life.
This is actually my primary issue, we have women's rights basically descending into all-out transphobia that seems to be stoked by fundamentalist christian/religious ideals vs a trans community which is now being attacked and ostracised on 2 side
Why is it that this can only be about yelling at each other?
I'm a left wing, gender critical feminist. This war has nothing to do with fundamentalist Christians for me. The people I follow are mostly left wing gender critical feminists and other socially progressive GC people.
In the US it's different because fundamentalists have such a strong influence on politics there. And in other places there is an element of conservatism involved.
Think of it as a war with three sides:
1. GCFs (mostly left or centre left), and other GC people who span the political compass. Support gender non-conformity, oppose gender identity trumping biological sex.
2. Conservative religious people. Oppose gender non-conformity.
3. Gender identity ideologists/TRAs. Say they support gender non-conformity while simultaneously enforcing gender conformity. Push the idea that sex isn't real or is no longer that relevant.
See I hear this whole 3side thing but the arguments are only 2 sided either being Trans is a thing or it is not… hence my equating it with fundamentalism.. nothing here seems to suggest that there is a 3rd side
trans women are biologically male (if you disagree you’d have to make the case). And because trans woman now means any male can say they are a TW at any time, then they should stay out of women’s space.
Many GCFs argue for third spaces (myself included). The obvious solution to the prison problem is to build specialist units for males that are particularly vulnerable.
You Fool, If we are in a changing room, in a state of undress and a male bodied person who identifies as a women comes in, then the self id laws have just made two current crimes legal ie. vouyerism and exhibitionism.
I don't want male bodied people in my change rooms, my daughters change room or young girls change rooms. That's pretty much in on the change room issue.
It was introduced by stealth and never campaigned on.
Let me just check with you: are you referring to the same BDMRR 2021 that Molly referred to @ 2.1 that attracted 6,609 submissions? The same Act that has a history that goes back to 2016 (and beyond)?
the initial change to the Bill was done at select committee without consultation. Don't remember why that didn't hold, but it's clear that they were trying to have it go through without debate.
there was never a wide debate in NZ about the women's rights issues
The Bill was introduced to the House by the then National Government in August 2017 and was read for the first time in December 2017. It was unanimously referred to the Governance and Administration Select Committee.
…
The Governance and Administration Committee reported back in August 2018 on the Births, Deaths, Marriages, and Relationships Registration Bill. There were 67 submissions, including 26 oral submissions. Individual submissions can be viewed here: BDMRR Bill submissions
…
The Bill was deferred in 2019 due to interest groups not having the opportunity to submit on the recommended amendments introduced by Select Committee after public submissions had closed.
If people allege stealth they’d better support it with facts! It says more about the person crafting the stealth narrative than about what actually happened.
Not everything a Government does or does not during a 3-year election cycle can and must (or should) be campaigned on! Is our trust in our political system and politicians so low that we have to have everything in writing before we (can) vote for them?
well yes, in this case trust in our political system if very low, as evidenced by the number of left/centre left people currently saying they are politically homeless.
Your quote doesn’t address the ‘stealth’ issue of how the changes were made to the Bill initially. I’ll see if I can find some explanation on line later (someone else might here might have it handy too).
To me, ‘stealth’ means undetected, hidden, and secret. And in this context it is by design for nefarious reasons. This is just not consistent with the information that is out there.
These sorts of unfounded or ambiguous allegations only damage the dwindling trust that is still left. NB one would think that the Left has more trust in Government than the Right but even that notion seems to have been turned on its head.
If you go to page 5 of this document you can read about the stealth like process
In 2018, a Bill to introduce gender self-identification through a major change to the Births, Deaths, Marriages and Relationships Registration Act (BDMRR) was considered by the Justice Select Committee. This Bill had been intended as a technical rewrite to allow for technology and other changes related to registrations, because the Act “lacked coherence, and was difficult to read and understand”.
Provisions to allow selfidentification of gender, with no requirement for medical or legal evidence and the removal of the Family Court process, were introduced after the select committee process. A successful campaign made the case that the scale of the proposed changes needed proper consultation and an impact assessment. Crown Law provided advice that the Bill’s provisions, as proposed, risked making the category of ‘sex’ impossible to define12 and the legislation was deferred in early 2019.
Is it ‘stealth’ or ‘stealth-like’? And what do you really mean when you use these terms? And whether there’s some kind of maleficent intention behind it, because that’s the vibe your allegations and comments give off to me.
I read the section and I read how complex the matter was (and possibly still is).
Good question. I mean that Labour/Greens brought the bill in with as little public scrutinay as possible. And I think they did that, because they didn’t want to listen or consider anyone who opposed the bill. There is good evidence for what I say, including the behaviour of those women MP’s at the select committee. Anyone who was opposed to the bill was treated with hostility and accused of transphobia amongst other things. It was a shock to see our MPs behave in this way.
Thanks for accepting the material I linked by Jill and Jan. I hoped to find more, but am a bit busy nowadays.
The BDMRR Bill introduced by National was basically a non contraversial bill re admin of BDand M records. It went through select committee and then post select committee the Greens added the gender ID part. Tracey Martin (the Minister at the time) mothballed the bill, after advice that there were some conflict of rights that would need addressing. So people like me thought that that was done and dusted pretty much. As a member of the Labour Party in the numerous surveys they sent out in 2020 they never asked me about gender id. They asked about a range of other issues, trying to ascertain what the membership thought was important. Labour didn't put gender id in their manifesto either (they did put the conversion therapy bill in). So it was a big surprize that they resserected the bill. Most people I talk to who don't follow politics closely have no idea about the bill. And I can't quite remember how it played out, but it possible that they tried to avoid a select committee process on gender id. Don't quote me on that, that is my memory.
I am not sure what the justification is for allowing anyone, particularly males to change their sex on their birth certificate. A birth certificate is a historical record relating to details of your birth. I changed my name, and despite doing this, my original/maiden name is still on my birth certificate.
Kate Scarlet (Chair) Senior Community Lawyer and co-founder of Naming New Zealand
Jack Byrne Senior health and human rights researcher with expertise in legal gender recognition for trans and non-binary people.
Jeannie Oliphant Sexual Health Physician (FAChSHM) based at Auckland Sexual Health Service and vice president of The Professional Association for Transgender Health Aotearoa (PATHA).
Mani Mitchell Executive Director and founder of the Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand, Counsellor/Clinical Supervisor MNZAC
Fleur Fitzsimons Parent to a transgender child and a Wellington City Councillor with portfolio responsibility for community wellbeing
Ahi Wi-Hongi National Coordinator for Gender Minorities Aotearoa, and a Māori, transgender, human rights advocate who works to improve public health access for gender minorities.
The report is worth the read to see how many recommendations are made across ministries and policies from this small group, with quite a paucity of supporting data.
Shanreagh, also posted back in 2021 a comment pertinent to the consultation, particularly in regards to the heavily redacted regulatory impact statement:
As a public servant used to seeing and assessing Regulatory Impact Statement that go up with any proposed legislation I read the RIS for this bill with amazement. It is the 'thinnest' RIS that I have ever seen, and I have seen a few.
Instead of upholding the right to disagree the authors of this paper have labelled the views of those who do not agree with them as 'anti-trans' and 'nonsense.'
Some I have spoken to who are against the wide open and possibly anti bio female Govt proposals, are in fact supportive of extending rights to gender minorities. But of course that does not suit the narrative that has been built up.
I also attended one of those low decile schools, it has served me well throughout my whole life. Sure there were disadvantages…my year had a time when our teacher was away, he was an acknodleged maths/arithemetic teacher and our reefif teachers were really not fit for purpose. My whole class suffered with not having basic concepts taught. Not atlking times tables but maths etc as a way of seeing or interpreting the world. This could have happened anywhere though
The good thing though is that we did have other specialists such as the itinerant art teachers such as Sandy Adsett who would visit, we also had swimming coaches teaching swimming in our pool.
But even though the concept/reality of social mixing, schooling is full of benefits it is almost like the convention that co-ed schools are better for boys while single sex schools are better for girls….whose girl child is to be 'sacrificed' so boy children can be socialised.
Were there, are there advantages for girls being in co-ed schools? I am dead certain the girls from our house who attended co-ed schools learned a lot more about people across the board and the way the world works by being at co-ed.
Which is standing them in good stead in their adult working lives.
I can offer an anecdotal set of examples as well. My teen (15) goes to a single sex school – while local kids the same age (Mums are friends of mine) – go to co-ed schools. The amount of time, energy and stress that goes into romantic relationship building, crash, and recovery – is 10x greater in the co-ed sphere. And, that has to have an impact on learning.
Lest anyone be concerned, my teen participates in multiple out-of-school activities – which are co-educational – so – not devoid of experience in relating to the opposite sex.
Yes, kids from the co-ed educational background then go through that set of relationship dynamics later on; but by then their brains have had more time to rewire, and are better prepared to deal with the emotional fallout.
I don't think that Rashbrooke's (and your) experience in a low-decile school can be adequately translated into the experience today.
The problems facing today’s schools are orders of magnitude greater – with issues like foetal alcohol syndrome and meth babies, combined with mainstreaming of kids with learning and/or behavioural challenges, and the inability of schools to manage the safety of both pupils and staff (i.e. the MoE won't let the schools exclude dangerous or disruptive kids, and won't provide the staff required to manage them safely).
None of those were true when Rashbrooke was attending his low decile secondary school (notably, after attending a high-decile primary) – also, based on his age, his secondary was almost certainly streamed – as virtually all were at that time.
Speaking to Block residents, I’ve heard understandable concerns that such schools may have worse facilities, struggle to retain the best staff, or enrol disproportionately troubled students who consume teachers’ attention.
It's easy to point the finger (as the anonymous educator does in the article)
“There is no doubt in my mind that laced all the way through here is prejudice and racism and inequity.”
But has that educator actually addressed the stated concerns of the parents? If those concerns had been shown to be invalid (which they have not), then the educator's comment might be valid.
There is a reason why 'good' (as in high-performing) schools attract a premium price for the surrounding real-estate.
Of course I don't think the experiences cannot be strictly related but the benefits should not be minimised.
The school in my suburb was for years in the doldrums decile-wise until parents starting saying to themselves I actually value my suburb and the people there and there is no danger in my child going there. Berhampore from times gone by has been an intensely multi cultural place with all sort of people, religions etc.
Otherwise I agree with many of your points….I would far rather spend more money on the lower decile schools to make them into the treasures they could be, the same as I would hope that a great proportion of my health dollars are going into this community.
Eastern Porirua has a deprivation score of 10 (the highest) and decile 1 schools.
And this is exactly what the rest of Hasan’s interview (and what I’ve described above) lays out in great detail: Taibbi isn’t just sloppy with facts, which is problematic enough. He leaves out the very important context that highlights how the big conspiracy he’s reporting is… not big, not a conspiracy, and not even remotely problematic.
He presents it as a massive censorship operation, targeting 22 million tweets, with takedown demands from government players, seeking to silence the American public. When you look through the details, correcting Taibbi’s many errors, and putting it in context, you see that it was an academic operation to study information flows, who sent the more blatant issues they came across to Twitter with no suggestion that they do anything about them, and the vast majority of which Twitter ignored. In some minority of cases, Twitter applied its own speech to add more context to some of the tweets, and in a very small number of cases, where it found phishing attempts or people impersonating election officials (clear terms of service violations, and potentially actual crimes), it removed them.
There remains no there there. It’s less than a Potemkin village. There isn’t even a façade. This is the Emperor’s New Clothes for a modern era. Taibbi is pointing to a naked emperor and insisting that he’s clothed in all sorts of royal finery, whereas anyone who actually looks at the emperor sees he’s naked.
Which soulless marketer dredged up the name “the Block”? It has connotations of dystopian gated communities with hidden TV crews poking through windows for the sake of ‘reality TV’.
Having been brought up myself in working class kindergarten, primary, intermediate and secondary schools, and a working class family, I'd observe that only a few kids I grew up with ever got out of that situation.
Not sure when our class mobility was ever high, but it's pretty low now.
We moved around a lot when I was young but during my primary school years, I lived and grew up in a new-build block in the middle of a small but very mixed community that was highly integrated. There was some initial friction because of loss of space (land) & views, as with almost all new developments in an already reasonably filled-in area. Although I was young, looking back I’d say the income range of the households would have quite big – it was a literal stepping-stone for many, including my parents after about 6 years, for moving up & away to posher areas. Those posh areas were more homogeneous and much less exciting & fun for a child growing up. My primary school was as mixed as the area I lived in but with a higher representation of lower/working-class children and it was great!
You could say that I’ve experienced class mobility (i.e. upwards) strapped in the backseat and at high speed. In other words, I don’t have a typical Kiwi experience and background as far as all this goes. I do note that NZ society is much more class-based than I’m used to and the number of snobs I’ve met over the years here are too many for my abacus.
The State can only do so much – details are decided by local authorities & developers.
At risk of replicating the Four Yorkshiremen Sketch, Max Rashbrooke ought to give a bit of credit for what the state has been up to in large scale urban planning since 2010.
Kainga Ora together with Piritahi are underway with the largest civic masterplanned developments we've had since the mid 1970s: Hobsonville, Oranga, Mt Roskill, Mangere, Northcote, and more.
Then of course there's the Christchurch rebuild in partnership with Christchurch Council and Kai Tahu and Fletcher Building, and all the other large scale planning in its satellite town centres.
And then the very smart developers who get the need for community building.
Max has a left melancholic propensity to moan about the bourgeoisie around him without lifting his eyes to the good.
I don't see it that way. Porirua East is one of the single most deprived areas in the Wellington area. it is often at the wrong end of the scales for health, deprivation.
It suffers from white flight/income flight (if there is such a name where you have the money to either buy in the zone you want, or pay for a lawyer to argue a case why you don't go to this school) with its school. The Block is what some call it.
Max Rashbrooke went to what would be called a lower decile school as did I. neither of us have regrets, I am reading. I don't call that snobbish.
I don’t know what your “it” is. If you think I called Max Rashbrooke a snob then you have the wrong end of the stick.
Don’t be afraid to call a spade a spade instead of coming up with plausible explanations or excuses for status quo [anywhere] in NZ.
As for the name “Block”, I’ve lived in really unsavoury areas, and ghetto blocks or prison blocks are not associations that I want to have when I receive my mail. I have also lived in ‘sub-urbia’ and I’m glad that those days are over too. Town planners in other countries seem have different philosophies and not all of those are strictly country-specific. Obviously, my views are a personal thing.
If parents have the capacity to do so, why should they not be free to invest and form their own private school indeed their own private world of self-reinforcing wealth and privilege?
Inside the answer to that question is a big upcoming election debate on education and implied class mobility.
And, indeed, a chunk of them do.
Others use the value of their home ($500K difference between the street in the Grammar zone and the one outside, for the same house) as a proxy.
I've heard the ACT party on education vouchers. Do you see this coming up as an election issue for other parties as well?
In a past life, I worked in the Buildings Division of the Education Department in Auckland. The chap who sat at the desk behind me did all the number crunching for school zoning. When he was not in, I had to answer his phone. (No voicemail in those days).
I had a shedload of fun while working my notice telling stories to people who rang to enquire as to where the Grammar zone was likely to be when their "Little Lord Fauntleroy" hit the magic age.
I told one woman she should buy the house next to Hillary College in Otara as by the time her lad got to secondary school, they would probably be bussing them in like in Alabama.
Sure, they could also home-school their kids, hire private tutors, and vote for ACT and Partnership Schools. Or they could support the Public Good of public schools in the area, which is what their taxes provides for. Unless that’s not good enough …
Forget about class mobility for a moment and let’s focus on being able to have a dignified job that supports a dignified life – the grass in the other class is not greener despite the scattering of daisies in spring.
For what its worth, the Labour Party UK would lock that child molester up in prison with females.
For what its worth, under the Labour Government (Ardern/Hipkins) in NZ a four time rapist got 9 month home D and if that person would have identified as a women they would have she/her them and the victims would have to refer to their rapist as a ‘she/her’ and that they were raped by ‘her penis’.
And for what its worth, this year we locked an entire male into a womens prison for a few years. His crime? Going into a restaurant in Jan/Feb last year, stabbing his ex girlfriend and two others.
The Soup throwing person would also be declared a ‘woman’, their crime would be counted as female on female violence and should they be considered guilty and should any judge in NZ have the guts to actually serve this person with time, they would do time in a female prison.
So frankly when it comes to crime, sexual assault neither Labour UK nor Labour NZ are acting decently.
Keir Starmer no more can define what a women is, even though Keir Starmer is certain that some have dicks.
[TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
A single charge of common assault and you’re already pre-empting the verdict and sentence!? Wow! Where did you study Law? I hope the Judge will be a woman, as this will remove at least one prejudice from suspicious minds. Or maybe not.
Recently, Socratic thinking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_questioning) and the Socratic method (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method) have cropped up a few times here on TS. It was associated with a misconception based on the assumption that the questioner (aka ‘teacher’, who happened to be a real teacher in real life) possessed knowledge & answers but assumed a veil of ignorance. In other words, the questioner was not debating in good faith here.
I believe that assumption to be incorrect. Socratic questioning can be used in debate to tease out beliefs, biases, knowledge gaps, et cetera, in both questioner and the person(s) being questioned (aka ‘student’). The aim is to arrive at a discernible truth that both parties (can) agree to and build on.
So, I reject the accusations and criticism that were aimed at the questioner here on TS on these grounds.
W. K. C. Guthrie in The Greek Philosophers sees it as an error to regard the Socratic method as a means by which one seeks the answer to a problem, or knowledge. Guthrie claims that the Socratic method actually aims to demonstrate one's ignorance. Socrates, unlike the Sophists, did believe that knowledge was possible, but believed that the first step to knowledge was recognition of one's ignorance. Guthrie writes, "[Socrates] was accustomed to say that he did not himself know anything, and that the only way in which he was wiser than other men was that he was conscious of his own ignorance, while they were not. The essence of the Socratic method is to convince the interlocutor that whereas he thought he knew something, in fact he does not."
whatever Robert was trying to tease out, it would have worked way better to have stated it up front. I don't know what he was trying to do, because he wouldn't say.
if the idea is to "arrive at a discernible truth that both parties (can) agree to and build on", it patently failed here.
I'm not stupid, and can usually grasp concepts that I disagree with or haven't come across before. But there are limits to that when ideas are presented obliquely. Being patronised elsewhere that I can't see the bigger picture hasn't helped my impression that it just boiled down to not understanding what the gender critical feminist position is but still deciding it is wrong anyway.
This debate isn't going to go away. Having watched this play out in other countries that are years further down the track than we are, once women (and the public generally) find out what is going on many women get angry, very angry, at having their rights removed without being consulted. You can see Anker's comments above for an example of how women just stop caring at some point about trans people and put their energy into looking after their own rights. This arises from No Debate, and it just gets worse the longer No Debate is pushed. It's terrible, and the worst thing that could be happening at this point in time, and the left is ignoring those of us that are ringing the warning bell.
let me put it another way. For many women this isn't an issue of philosophical difference that can be teased out or where women can be taught to think properly. And this fact is being missed by many.
Please don’t be misled by the reference to Socrates, which was not introduced into this debate by me, BTW. I think it was mis-labelled (or mis-appropriated) and then used to dismiss Robert’s comments.
This about applying critical thinking tools to debate of a complex issue. Debating is what we do here on TS. The better the tools and skills of the participants, the better the debate. So far, it has not been a very good debate, IMO, also judging by the outcomes.
The topic of debate is very real and has real-life impact. I don’t think that anybody is denying this!
I have followed these dicussions and have learnt a fair bit.
eg The process of the rewrite of the BDMRR Bill and then the Green changes occuring post select committee to include gender self ID .
The range of those in the self ID community. From young teens and pre teens dicovering their identity/sexuality and autogynephylia in middle aged men through to the furries,
The reinfircement of the observation that the left looks for traitors, the right looks for recruits. Also it has strengthened my resolve to be wary of ideologies/ideologues. Very little in life is so simple.
TBH, I was a tad sceptical about the GCF position, there was a whiff of misandry about it – 'penis is bad', the GCF views appeared to be coming from an older, conservative (status quo conservative not right wing conservative) voice and initially, the horror stories were all coming from overseas.
Through following the korero here on TS the scepticism has abated. Yes, a warranted wariness of males exists, the conservativeness is akin to my own and now the horrible part of 'the struggle' is here. Witness Albert Park; the assault of a senior citizen that largely goes unacknowledged or gets the 'once-over lightly' in MSM. eg RNZ's media watch.
It is possible to hold a position where women's access to safe spaces is acknowledged and upheld while still maintaining a trans individual's mana. So far, this has been expressed largely by the GC side of the debate.
Another aspect that I have come to understand in this time is; Your rights are my responsibility.
You can see Anker's comments above for an example of how women just stop caring at some point about trans people and put their energy into looking after their own rights. This arises from No Debate, and it just gets worse the longer No Debate is pushed. It's terrible, and the worst thing that could be happening at this point in time, and the left is ignoring those of us that are ringing the warning bell.
I don’t think Robert knew exactly what he was trying to tease out either. He was asking questions and others started to distrust his line of questioning, or became tired and frustrated because of his persistence and/or the fact that they didn’t seem to get their intended/desired traction with him, and accused him of assuming a veil of ignorance (Socratic questioning) and trolling. When he denied this, there was more disbelief and condemnation. And so on and so forth.
I don’t follow your comment about not being stupid and being patronised!?
You are 100% right that this is not going to go away. I don’t understand why others (“stealth”) and you’re saying that there was no consultation when there clearly was, as far as I can tell. I do understand that there’s anger and it is pretty obvious that there’s a lot of it, which is not a good foundation for debate of a difficult topic.
I don’t think that even the TS commentariat is representative of ‘the Left’. I’ve raised this in another comment: if No Debate is an or the issue why then is the debate here so narrow and bordering on being exclusive of diverging let alone contrarian opinions? Even questioning is met with unfair scrutiny and scepticism if not contempt and distrust that induces an experience of gatekeepers testing everyone who wants to participate and the ones that don’t are told “Thou Shall Not Pass!”. You cannot have it both ways – the kaupapa of TS is robust inclusive debate and this is not what I’ve been observing.
When I asked Robert repeatedly to explain his thinking, he didn't. When I said I saw no evidence that he understands GCF positions, he said he does. When I asked him to demonstrate this, he refused. I can totally see why some people started to think he was trolling. The debate techniques he was using, intentionally or not, were almost impossible to work with.
I don’t follow your comment about not being stupid and being patronised!?
Robert said some patronising things that are in the Trash.
I don’t understand why others (“stealth”) and you’re saying that there was no consultation when there clearly was, as far as I can tell.
I'm not saying there was no consultation. Maybe others are using inaccurate language? But there was the point in time when MPs tried to get changes to a Bill in a surreptitious way. And later when the consultations were under way, MPs were rude and obnoxious even to people submitting. This is a big part of distrust of government process for NZ GC people I think.
I do understand that there’s anger and it is pretty obvious that there’s a lot of it, which is not a good foundation for debate of a difficult topic.
Women are angry and that's reasonable given the situation. People arguing from anger isn't new here either. The foundation of the debate is women's rights and the injustice of what is happening. Most of the time I see commenters making arguments despite the anger. It's not like they're here slagging people off (mostly).
I’ve raised this in another comment: if No Debate is an or the issue why then is the debate here so narrow and bordering on being exclusive of diverging let alone contrarian opinions? Even questioning is met with unfair scrutiny and scepticism if not contempt and distrust that induces an experience of gatekeepers testing everyone who wants to participate and the ones that don’t are told “Thou Shall Not Pass!”. You cannot have it both ways – the kaupapa of TS is robust inclusive debate and this is not what I’ve been observing.
Can you please point to come examples? The only people here who can stop others from speaking are you and me and other mods.
How is debate narrow? How is it bording on being exclusive? Do you mean the number of replies to RG's comments? Or what?
Even if what you say is true, that there are people gatekeeping (not sure how that is being done), what's the problem? No-one is obliged to respond to anyone and there are plenty of other people to talk with.
I'm not sure if you understand what No Debate is. No Debate in a TS context would be Lynn and micky succumbing to the external pressures to not have GC debate here and shutting me down. Or the revers No Debate would be all anti-terfers, pro-trans and even question people being banned because of their beliefs.
Given that Michael Sandel is acting in a formal teaching role in your example – it still seems to be a methodology which works most effectively in teaching rather than in debate.
Teaching and debating both involve learning and gaining understanding and this is the key point of my example that connects the two. Of course, if you think debate is a point-scoring competition with a clear winner and a deflected loser then you might have a point.
I'm a more utilitarian type of person. I hate becoming caught up in subjective abstracts when looking for practical answers. Ironically, most of the learning methods I use, created by educator, Win Wenger, have the Socrates method ( and feedback) as their base. However, he has created new methods that are superior to the former in my opinion.
I hate becoming caught up in subjective abstracts when looking for practical answers.
Excellent! You feel right at home here then on a progressive political blogsite that aims for high-quality robust debate of anything related to and ranging from political ideology to realpolitik.
Socrates obviously was a smart cookie but more so, he was wise – his long beard gave it away
Yet on my twitter feed about a bearded man coming up with an anti female pronouncement written on a T shirt we have this response
Here we have a specimen of the lesser Bearded Willy-wagger, a subtype of the Bearded Willy-wagger species. It’s main attribute is its propensity to shriek loudly at women with opinions it dislikes. It’s unmistakable mating call is TWAW! TWAW! TWAW! TWAW!
But I couldn't possibly comment.
[1 day ban for continual posting of quotes without links. Please reply to my mod note comment below with the link, when you return – weka]
Also, in the context of the debate – to ascribe wisdom as coming from a bloke with a beard (no matter how much it's intended as a joke)….. rather jars.
It is a sad state of affairs when commenters here pretend to take part in robust debate take umbrage with my innocent little reference to Robert’s beard, which BTW, has been mentioned and referenced here before without raising any ‘jarring’. It is almost as if some people are waiting (and wanting?) to feel ‘offended’, which might help explain the sudden (?) meteoric rise in popularity of men such as Sean ‘Ungrateful Hua’ Plunket and his ilk.
I had a complete techno meltdown yesterday with my keyboard resorting to a mix of letters & figures and my phone not keeping the charge. New keyboard makes all the difference.
Here we have a specimen of the lesser Bearded Willy-wagger, a subtype of the Bearded Willy-wagger species. It’s main attribute is its propensity to shriek loudly at women with opinions it dislikes. It’s unmistakable mating call is TWAW! TWAW! TWAW! TWAW!
To be honest one of the reasons I did not link was because God Zilla was replying to horrible 'Terf' type anti women stuff. But I guess we are all old enough to be able to deal with this anti women stuff.
Also, in the context of the debate – to ascribe wisdom as coming from a bloke with a beard (no matter how much it's intended as a joke)….. rather jars.
But then years ago I did not get some of the 'humour.' Many feminists had 'no sense of humour' apparently.
To be honest one of the reasons I did not link was because God Zilla was replying to horrible 'Terf' type anti women stuff. But I guess we are all old enough to be able to deal with this anti women stuff.
This says to me that you still think you get a choice about when to link and when not to. If you quote you have to link. Every time. I've told you this before.
If you don't want to link, then don't quote.
If you link to something you find problematic, you can explain your thinking on that in your comment so that people know.
Some people here could do with some deep-breathing techniques to loosen up. Or they could realise that context often makes all the difference and that people have different experiences and knowledge that gives them their unique personal context.
I’m not going to quote Nietzsche again though – once is enough today and it is already losing its meaning and impact here on TS.
Sorry I don't understand what you are trying to say. All I was doing was to say that for long time feminists we are often accused of having no sense of humour, so yes I do agree with Belladonna.
I did not want to link to anti women stuff (if a person clicked to the posts that led to God Zilla posting),
I have accepted the moderation, will link fully and will express my concerns at the time of linking in future.
I made a mistake in not linking, can we just leave it please…..please.
Feel free to not respond to this comment from me Shanreagh.
One of the problems I see atm (for the mods to sort out) is that it's become more unclear when a comment is from a moderator and when it is from one of us without our mod hat on. In this case, I think you could just have ignored Incognito's comment if you've had enough, but mine needed a response and I can see that it's hard to tell. I've already been thinking about this a bit, there are time when it's better not to use bold in-comment notes. I've seen this confusion in the past too.
No Mod hat anywhere in sight as far as I was concerned, so I have no idea why or how there could or would be any confusion about it.
For a number of reasons, one of which is to stay more impartial, I have not jumped into (recent) debates. However, the recent banning of a regular and highly respected commenter compelled me to start commenting on the ways discourse has been suffering badly here on TS, in my opinion. This has almost (!) nothing to do with Moderation per se, IMO, as I’ve already stated previously – explaining indeed starts to feel like losing.
And for what it is worth, be assured I am very aware of how difficult it can be to tread the path of impartiality. And especially to be seen to be doing so. When I said elsewhere that I have no desire to tangle with moderation, it is with this in mind, that I truly have no desire to make your task any harder than it already is.
In my mind it is usually better to step back from confrontation, than to persist to prove a point for little gain. I imagine all of us have made the error of failing to draw a distinction between our ego's and our opinions at one time or another.
In Election Year, we want to avoid any extra work for the Mods and certainly no ‘tangles’ with the Mods (which is begging for self-martyrdom at the best of times, as per the site’s Policy, as you know).
At this point, I’d like to ask you, please refrain from making subtle or not-so–subtle digs at any (!) Moderation that disrespect and undermine any (!) of the Mods’ hard work and well-intended efforts.
I thought I'd said what I thought the problem was. I use comments for moderation at times (instead of putting mod notes in bold inside someone else's comment). I've been thinking lately that people are getting confused as to when I (or you) comment, whether it's a mod note or not.
If people are confused about my moderation tech, they may be thinking that it applies to yours as well.
Whilst you may have point, generally speaking, I still don’t see how it applies to this specific case and why you brought it up here. Never mind, I want to let this go and move on.
Besides being less involved in the various discussion threads I’ve adapted a few other ways of modding to improve clarity, such as:
I fully expect commenters to read replies to their comments and take note, especially if they clearly come from a Mod who’s been modding them. I’ve wasted too much time chasing up offenders who play blind and shtum and follow-up with quick(er) action nowadays.
If you have a specific problem with how I moderated RG (other than banning a long term, respected commenter), I really wish you would say clearly what the problem is. You may well be seeing things I have missed. From my perspective he was moderated because he is one of the commenters who believe he is somehow exempt from the rules and mod requests. That was pretty clear.
If the issue is how he ended up in that position, all I can say is I don't think his disrespect for moderation is new or specific to the G/S wars, it's just that he's not really been that deep into the hard core debates before and so it hasn't shown up as much. He's not unusual in his position, there are others who likewise thing moderation can be ignored, and they usually end up with a ban after requests and warnings as well 🤷♀️
I hope when he comes back that 1) he pays attention to moderation and respects it, and 2) he changes his debate style and starts sharing his thinking. I would actually like to hear that.
If I have a specific problem with your specific moderation of RG, I will discuss this with you in the back-end.
FWIW, RG was worn down by the relentless pile-on from a small gang of commenters, wave after wave, comment after comment, and he had reached the end of the road, for him. That was pretty clear and he said as much in his defence; his idiosyncratic persistence (aka ‘stroppiness’), which is generally a positive trait, pushed him off the reserve. It is not the end of the world for RG, I’d imagine, but some of the culpability was not his to own. IMO.
You seem to cycle back to moderation being the issue for me, which is inaccurate, as I’ve already stated quite a few times (I’ve lost count now).
As to what the problems are in and with the commentariat, I’ve touched upon and highlighted already many issues, as I see them, and working my way through them. It is an ongoing process for me too, not unlike the process that RG was going through, ironically. My thoughts & views are scattered over many comments now, which might not help to get a clear succinct picture, especially when it means reading all those comments over a few days and stitching all the info together. I do realise that!
I reiterate that respect for moderation here on TS is paramount.
It would be preferable if everybody would pay a little more attention to clarity, accuracy, unambiguity, etc., in/of their comments and less effort on responding as often and quickly (aka ‘slow down’) as possible and/or trying to score ‘debating points’. However, I believe we do have to respect people’s individual (idiosyncratic) styles and ways of learning and debating, et cetera. But most of all, we ought to be able to assume that people here come in good faith and are genuinely interested in robust debate. I believe this assumption has become less certain in recent times and been invalidated by a few, be it unwittingly or not so much …
The experience I have had with Socratic questioning was in my law studies (over 4 years) and in with one CE in particular who used it to 'drill down' to the essential message from skilled and knowledgeable people.
So these were two examples where the questioner had a position of more knowledge. While often the questions were rapid fire and made you think on your feet I only ever had the view that the questioner was seeking to impart knowledge (firstly) & gain knowledge (secondly – as we can always learn from others)
I have not seen it used from a position of ignorance ie to gain knowledge but accept from your data that it can be used for that.
The kind of questioning used by people who do not know and who are information seeking is usually (from my experience) much more tentative and has a framing around it.
The rapid fire technique with the lack of opinion, framing or knowledge sharing made me suspect 'tone' perhaps that the questioner had a viewpoint but was not sharing this. I then 'leapt in logic' (based on my experience) that he had more knowledge/opinion than he was giving out.
Also, leaders must know that there is a rhythm to asking questions if they want to get the best answers. In my experience, you can’t dive right in with the tough direct question if you want a really good answer. In essence, you need to warm up your audience before hitting the toughest, most meaningful questions. You need to build a rapport with the audience. You need to develop trust if you want honest and insightful answers.
For instance, it might help to start with a general question such as, “What do you think?” Once you have your audience talking and sharing their ideas and opinions, then you need to make questions more specific to get to the heart of the matter. But if you jump right in with the specifics, it’s likely that your audience won’t respond as well because the question will come across as abrupt and jarring. Build a rhythm by asking simple, more general questions first, and let your questions build to the more specific and difficult as you establish trust with your audience. (my highlighting)
Perhaps I was incorrect to ascribe Socratic to it, it was my experience of Socratic (it was called Socratic) and is used, or used to be, in some Law schools. I think I did put some refs, I know I looked it up but probably slanted to a legal use.
Whatever the type of question it was, they were in my view, unsuccessful. It almost felt that they had turned into leading or trick questions designed to catch out the unwary.
Thanks. The backgrounds of commenters here are widely different, of course. I think there was definitely an element of Socratic questioning in Robert’s comments, perhaps unwittingly, but your assumption of his baseline knowledge was a little off. It was a petty, actually a real shame, that you didn’t accept his word that he was genuine and commenting with honesty and respect.
Your very last sentence phrased it perfectly: it had become a battle of wits & wills to trip (up) the opponent into a ‘gotcha!’ moment and claim (moral?) victory. This belongs in the realm of Social Media and Talkback shock-jocks, not on a site that aims for robust political debate, IMO.
(The four Quick reads from Test links are also worth the read to add further detail to an already informative article).
Nuance and numbers
“It’s not a science experiment or a greenwashing thing. The trucks are going to do the job the old ones did,” Mark says as we take a walk around the Wiri depot. “The trucks spend a lot of time stationary loading and unloading – we don’t need a big range.”
Grant opens the Daimler telematics app on his phone to illustrate the fleet benchmarks. “The 26 Euro-6 vehicles we can access data on are averaging 2.3km/l this week (between Sunday and Friday), over 31,000km, at an average speed of 22kph. The extremes are 1.8 and 3.3km/l.”
Mark explains the potential savings. “For diesel, we may look at 2kpl at $1.20. Fuelling an EV is four to 15 times cheaper, depending on how you source or produce your energy.”
He points to the array of solar panels on the roof of one of the buildings. On average, they produce 500kWh daily, enough to run three of the Scanias.
However, the setup is yet to be complete so, for now, the Scanias charge off a portable 40kW charger connected to the grid at Wiri and a 120kW charger (the maximum the trucks can handle) at Onehunga.
“There are all these little nuances,” Mark says. The megawatt charging standard coming in 2024 will revolutionise it, so we have to design our charging infrastructure for that. We can connect to the grid to trickle charge at night when the cost is low and have a 300kW solar setup and a 2mWh battery storage system to charge at a megawatt off- grid. That’s a couple of million dollars…
“But we’ve burnt a million litres of diesel a year for the past 15 years… so investing in the long term, we can drop energy to a fraction and fix that cost for decades with a microgrid.”
The four 125-metre wind turbines the company planned to build at Kokiri Rd, 5km northeast of Manaia township, would generate electricity to produce hydrogen used to make fertiliser by the nearby Ballance Agri-Nutrients ammonia-urea manufacturing plant,
but in five years would transition to supplying fuel for commercial and heavy transport.
Good article. Interesting that both applications (cotton and urea production) are considered to be significantly environmentally harmful in other ways, mainly to do with water use and contamination.
How we balance environmental priorities is a discussion that should be taking place.
I would hope the criteria for government grants should consider more than energy use and type.
I listened to this podcast from Sam Harris, my partner subscribes so I was able to listen to the whole thing. Excellent breakdown of language around gender, the two extremes of the trans debate going up against each other with no ground for the middle, many unable to express their thoughts and concerns etc, politics and much more. I haven’t listened to ‘The Witch Trials of JK Rowling’ yet but intend to.
the witch trials podcast is excellent. It's quite balanced, although obviously it's not taking the JKR is a naziterf position, which is pissing off some of the anti-terfs. But it’s probably a good thing to listen to for people that don’t really understand the situation. I also learned some stuff about social media and its role in the whole thing.
A particularly good (and imo sensible) interview on RNZ this evening with a spokesperson for the Fa'afafine community …unfortunately I have no direct link but it may possibly be found within the following…
This may be useful – about the Yogyakarta Principles and how they ignored the rights of women.
"The Principles were drafted and signed by a group of lawyers, human rights experts and trans rights activists, including Robert Wintemute, professor of human rights law at King’s College London. Since then Wintemute has had second thoughts. He says women’s rights were not considered during the meeting and that he should have challenged some aspects of the Principles. Admitting he “failed to consider” that trans women still in possession of their male genitals would seek to access female-only spaces, Wintemute, who is gay, says: “A key factor in my change of opinion has been listening to women.”
The Principles merge lesbian and gay rights with the right to protection and expression of “gender identity”. They provide a foundation for the view that “gender identity” — based on the feelings of an individual — trumps biological sex."
Having worked all those long years in the PS & being involved in the drafting and maintenance of Conflict of Interest registers I find it unbelievable that a person who is a signatory to these Yogyakarta Principles has not recused himself from involvement in the trans & women discussions.
To say that my world view has been a little shattered would be an understatement.
It is so concerning as I understand that the safe spaces regime is part of the Human Rights Act & Paul Hunt and his staff are the ones who will look at concerns around access to safe spaces. I was always of the view that the safe spaces regime in NZ was eminently challengeable by the trans lobby, made more difficult perhaps by having an insider. Perhaps he will recuse himself from dealing with this?
Seriously though, how was/is it possible to be appointed to such a post with being a signatory to something such as these principles.
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Monday left me brokenTuesday, I was through with hopingWednesday, my empty arms were openThursday, waiting for love, waiting for loveThe end of another week that left many of us asking WTF? What on earth has NZ gotten itself into and how on earth could people have voluntarily signed up for ...
Hello! Here comes the Saturday edition of More Than A Feilding, catching you up on the past week’s editions.State of humanity, 20242024, it feels, keeps presenting us with ever more challenges, ever more dismay.Do you give up yet? It seems to ask.No? How about this? Or this?How about this?Full story Share ...
Determining the hardest sport in the world is a subjective matter, as the difficulty level can vary depending on individual abilities, physical attributes, and experience. However, based on various factors including physical demands, technical skills, mental fortitude, and overall accomplishment, here is an exploration of some of the most challenging ...
The allure of sport transcends age, culture, and geographical boundaries. It captivates hearts, ignites passions, and provides unparalleled entertainment. Behind the spectacle, however, lies a fascinating world of financial investment and expenditure. Among the vast array of competitive pursuits, one question looms large: which sport carries the hefty title of ...
Introduction Pickleball, a rapidly growing paddle sport, has captured the hearts and imaginations of millions around the world. Its blend of tennis, badminton, and table tennis elements has made it a favorite among players of all ages and skill levels. As the sport’s popularity continues to surge, the question on ...
Abstract: Soccer, the global phenomenon captivating millions worldwide, has a rich history that spans centuries. Its origins trace back to ancient civilizations, but the modern version we know and love emerged through a complex interplay of cultural influences and innovations. This article delves into the fascinating journey of soccer’s evolution, ...
Tinting car windows offers numerous benefits, including enhanced privacy, reduced glare, UV protection, and a more stylish look for your vehicle. However, the cost of window tinting can vary significantly depending on several factors. This article provides a comprehensive guide to help you understand how much you can expect to ...
The pungent smell of gasoline in your car can be an alarming and potentially dangerous problem. Not only is the odor unpleasant, but it can also indicate a serious issue with your vehicle’s fuel system. In this article, we will explore the various reasons why your car may smell like ...
Tree sap can be a sticky, unsightly mess on your car’s exterior. It can be difficult to remove, but with the right techniques and products, you can restore your car to its former glory. Understanding Tree Sap Tree sap is a thick, viscous liquid produced by trees to seal wounds ...
The amount of paint needed to paint a car depends on a number of factors, including the size of the car, the number of coats you plan to apply, and the type of paint you are using. In general, you will need between 1 and 2 gallons of paint for ...
Jump-starting a car is a common task that can be performed even in adverse weather conditions like rain. However, safety precautions and proper techniques are crucial to avoid potential hazards. This comprehensive guide will provide detailed instructions on how to safely jump a car in the rain, ensuring both your ...
Stripping two Ministers of their portfolios just six months into the job shows Christopher Luxon’s management style is lacking, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...
It appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last year’s severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...
The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labour’s environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...
The Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...
Some of our country’s most important work, stopping the sexual exploitation of children and violent extremism could go along with staff on the frontline at ports and airports. ...
The Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a ‘get out of jail free’ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
Cuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for Tāmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
The Green Party has today launched a step-by-step guide to help New Zealanders make their voice heard on the Government’s democracy dodging and anti-environment fast track legislation. ...
The National Government’s proposed changes to the Residential Tenancies Act will mean tenants can be turfed from their homes by landlords with little notice, Labour housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty said. ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson is calling on all parties to support a common-sense change that’s great for the planet and great for consumers after her member’s bill was drawn from the ballot today. ...
A significant milestone has been reached in the fight to strike an anti-Pasifika and unfair law from the country’s books after Teanau Tuiono’s members’ bill passed its first reading. ...
New Zealand has today missed the opportunity to uphold the right to a clean, healthy, and sustainable environment, says James Shaw after his member’s bill was voted down in its first reading. ...
Today’s advice from the Climate Change Commission paints a sobering reality of the challenge we face in combating climate change, especially in light of recent Government policy announcements. ...
Minister for Disability Issues Penny Simmonds appears to have delayed a report back to Cabinet on the progress New Zealand is making against international obligations for disabled New Zealanders. ...
The Government’s newly announced review of methane emissions reduction targets hints at its desire to delay Aotearoa New Zealand’s urgent transition to a climate safe future, the Green Party said. ...
The Government must commit to the Maitai School building project for students with high and complex needs, to ensure disabled students from the top of the South Island have somewhere to learn. ...
Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey and his Government colleagues have made a meal of their mental health commitments, showing how flimsy their efforts to champion the issue truly are, says Labour Mental Health spokesperson Ingrid Leary. ...
Paul Goldsmith will take on responsibility for the Media and Communications portfolio, while Louise Upston will pick up the Disability Issues portfolio, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today. “Our Government is relentlessly focused on getting New Zealand back on track. As issues change in prominence, I plan to adjust Ministerial ...
Recreational catch limits will be reduced in areas of Fiordland and the Chatham Islands to help keep those fisheries healthy and sustainable, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The lower recreational daily catch limits for a range of finfish and shellfish species caught in the Fiordland Marine Area and ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone in New Zealand’s hydrogen future, with the opening of the country’s first network of hydrogen refuelling stations in Wiri. “I want to congratulate the team at Hiringa Energy and its partners K one W one (K1W1), Mitsui & Co New Zealand ...
The coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to improve resource management laws and give greater certainty to consent applicants, with a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) expected to be introduced to Parliament next month. RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop has today outlined the first RMA Amendment ...
Overseas models for regulating the oil and gas sector, including their decommissioning regimes, are being carefully scrutinised as a potential template for New Zealand’s own sector, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. The Coalition Government is focused on rebuilding investor confidence in New Zealand’s energy sector as it looks to strengthen ...
Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell has today released the Report of the Government Inquiry into the response to the North Island Severe Weather Events. “The report shows that New Zealand’s emergency management system is not fit-for-purpose and there are some significant gaps we need to address,” Mr Mitchell ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith is today travelling to Europe where he’ll update the United Nations Human Rights Council on the Government’s work to restore law and order. “Attending the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva provides us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while ...
Associate Agriculture Minister, Mark Patterson, formally reopened the world’s largest wool processing facility today in Awatoto, Napier, following a $50 million rebuild and refurbishment project. “The reopening of this facility will significantly lift the economic opportunities available to New Zealand’s wool sector, which already accounts for 20 per cent of ...
Hon Andrew Bayly, Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing At the Southland Otago Regional Engineering Collective (SOREC) Summit, 18 April, Dunedin Ngā mihi nui, Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Ko Whanganui aho Good Afternoon and thank you for inviting me to open your summit today. I am delighted ...
The Government is delivering on its commitment to bring back the Three Strikes legislation, Associate Justice Minister Nicole McKee announced today. “Our Government is committed to restoring law and order and enforcing appropriate consequences on criminals. We are making it clear that repeat serious violent or sexual offending is not ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has today announced four new diplomatic appointments for New Zealand’s overseas missions. “Our diplomats have a vital role in maintaining and protecting New Zealand’s interests around the world,” Mr Peters says. “I am pleased to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the ...
New Zealand is contributing NZ$7 million to support communities affected by severe food insecurity and other urgent humanitarian needs in Ethiopia and Somalia, Foreign Minister Rt Hon Winston Peters announced today. “Over 21 million people are in need of humanitarian assistance across Ethiopia, with a further 6.9 million people ...
Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Paul Goldsmith is congratulating Mataaho Collective for winning the Golden Lion for best participant in the main exhibition at the Venice Biennale. "Congratulations to the Mataaho Collective for winning one of the world's most prestigious art prizes at the Venice Biennale. “It is good ...
The Government is reforming financial services to improve access to home loans and other lending, and strengthen customer protections, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly and Housing Minister Chris Bishop announced today. “Our coalition Government is committed to rebuilding the economy and making life simpler by cutting red tape. We are ...
“China remains a strong commercial opportunity for Kiwi exporters as Chinese businesses and consumers continue to value our high-quality safe produce,” Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says. Mr McClay has returned to New Zealand following visits to Beijing, Harbin and Shanghai where he met ministers, governors and mayors and engaged in trade and agricultural events with the New ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has completed a successful trip to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines, deepening relationships and capitalising on opportunities. Mr Luxon was accompanied by a business delegation and says the choice of countries represents the priority the New Zealand Government places on South East Asia, and our relationships in ...
New Zealand is demonstrating its commitment to reducing global greenhouse emissions, and supporting clean energy transition in South East Asia, through a contribution of NZ$41 million (US$25 million) in climate finance to the Asian Development Bank (ADB)-led Energy Transition Mechanism (ETM). Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced ...
The Government is today releasing a list of organisations who received letters about the Fast-track applications process, says RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop. “Recently Ministers and agencies have received a series of OIA requests for a list of organisations to whom I wrote with information on applying to have a ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Wellington Barrister David Jonathan Boldt as a Judge of the High Court, and the Honourable Justice Matthew Palmer as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Justice Boldt graduated with an LLB from Victoria University of Wellington in 1990, and also holds ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford will lead the New Zealand delegation at the 2024 International Summit on the Teaching Profession (ISTP) held in Singapore. The delegation includes representatives from the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) Te Wehengarua and the New Zealand Educational Institute (NZEI) Te Riu Roa. The summit is co-hosted ...
A stopbank upgrade project in Tairawhiti partly funded by the Government has increased flood resilience for around 7000ha of residential and horticultural land so far, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones today attended a dawn service in Gisborne to mark the end of the first stage of the ...
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters will represent the Government at Anzac Day commemorations on the Gallipoli Peninsula next week and engage with senior representatives of the Turkish government in Istanbul. “The Gallipoli campaign is a defining event in our history. It will be a privilege to share the occasion ...
Science, Innovation and Technology and Defence Minister Judith Collins will next week attend the OECD Science and Technology Ministerial conference in Paris and Anzac Day commemorations in Belgium. “Science, innovation and technology have a major role to play in rebuilding our economy and achieving better health, environmental and social outcomes ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos Jr. The Prime Minister was accompanied by MP Paulo Garcia, the first Filipino to be elected to a legislature outside the Philippines. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon and President Marcos Jr discussed opportunities to ...
The Government has announced that $20 million in funding will be made available to Westport to fund much needed flood protection around the town. This measure will significantly improve the resilience of the community, says Local Government Minister Simeon Brown. “The Westport community has already been allocated almost $3 million ...
The Government is proud to support the first ever Repco Supercars Championship event in Taupō as up to 70,000 motorsport fans attend the Taupō International Motorsport Park this weekend, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. “Anticipation for the ITM Taupō Super400 is huge, with tickets and accommodation selling out weeks ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced an increase to the Rates Rebate Scheme, putting money back into the pockets of low-income homeowners. “The coalition Government is committed to bringing down the cost of living for New Zealanders. That includes targeted support for those Kiwis who are doing things tough, such ...
The Coalition Government is investing in a project to boost survival rates of New Zealand mussels and grow the industry, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones has announced. “This project seeks to increase the resilience of our mussels and significantly boost the sector’s productivity,” Mr Jones says. “The project - ...
Benefit figures released today underscore the importance of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker Support, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “Benefit numbers are still significantly higher than when National was last in government, when there was about 70,000 fewer ...
The Government’s commitment to doubling New Zealand’s renewable energy capacity is backed by new data showing that clean energy has helped the country reach its lowest annual gross emissions since 1999, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand’s latest Greenhouse Gas Inventory (1990-2022) published today, shows gross emissions fell ...
The Government is bringing the earthquake-prone building review forward, with work to start immediately, and extending the deadline for remediations by four years, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Our Government is focused on rebuilding the economy. A key part of our plan is to cut red tape that ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and his Thai counterpart, Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin, have today agreed that New Zealand and the Kingdom of Thailand will upgrade the bilateral relationship to a Strategic Partnership by 2026. “New Zealand and Thailand have a lot to offer each other. We have a strong mutual desire to build ...
RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Transport Minister Simeon Brown have today announced the Coalition Government’s intention to extend port coastal permits for a further 20 years, providing port operators with certainty to continue their operations. “The introduction of the Resource Management Act in 1991 required ports to obtain coastal ...
Today’s announcement that inflation is down to 4 per cent is encouraging news for Kiwis, but there is more work to be done - underlining the importance of the Government’s plan to get the economy back on track, acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “Inflation is now at 4 per ...
Refreshed health guidance released today will help parents and schools make informed decisions about whether their child needs to be in school, addressing one of the key issues affecting school attendance, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. In recent years, consistently across all school terms, short-term illness or medical reasons ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is streamlining high-level oceans management while maintaining a focus on supporting the sector’s role in the export-led recovery of the economy. “I am working to realise the untapped potential of our fishing and aquaculture sector. To achieve that we need to be smarter with ...
Associate Agriculture Minister Mark Patterson is speaking at the International Wool Textile Organisation Congress in Adelaide, promoting New Zealand wool, and outlining the coalition Government’s support for the revitalisation the sector. "New Zealand’s wool exports reached $400 million in the year to 30 June 2023, and the coalition Government ...
The Government is making legislative changes to make it easier for new early learning services to be established, and for existing services to operate, Associate Education Minister David Seymour says. The changes involve repealing the network approval provisions that apply when someone wants to establish a new early learning service, ...
Changes to the Resource Management Act will align consenting for coal mining to other forms of mining to reduce barriers that are holding back economic development, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. “The inconsistent treatment of coal mining compared with other extractive activities is burdensome red tape that fails to acknowledge ...
Trade, Agriculture and Forestry Minister Todd McClay has concluded productive discussions with ministerial counterparts in Beijing today, in support of the New Zealand-China trade and economic relationship. “My meeting with Commerce Minister Wang Wentao reaffirmed the complementary nature of the bilateral trade relationship, with our Free Trade Agreement at its ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kelly Saunders, PhD Candidate, University of Canberra There has been much analysis and praise of Justice Michael Lee’s recent judgement in Bruce Lehrmann’s defamation case against Channel Ten. Many people were openly relieved to read Lee’s “forensic” and “nuanced” application of law ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kathy Gibbs, Program Director for the Bachelor of Education, Griffith University zEdward_Indy/Shutterstock Around one in 20 people has attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). It’s one of the most common neurodevelopmental disorders in childhood and often continues into adulthood. ADHD is diagnosed ...
The Fairer Future coalition of anti-poverty groups say Whaikaha must be properly funded going forward, and that to argue that poor financial management of the new Ministry is a red herring by the Prime Minister. ...
The Taxpayers’ Union is today congratulating Hon. Paul Goldsmith on his appointment as Minister for Media and Communications and urges him to rule out state intervention in the private media sector. ...
Asia Pacific Report The West Papuan resistance OPM leader has condemned Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese and US President Joe Biden, accusing their countries of “six decades of treachery” over Papuan independence. The open letter was released today by OPM chairman Jeffrey P Bomanak on the eve of ANZAC Day ...
Welcome to The Spinoff Books Confessional, in which we get to know the reading habits and quirks of New Zealanders at large. This week: writer and one of Time Magazine’s 100 most influential people of 2024, Lauren Groff.The book I wish I’d writtenIf I wish I’d written a ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By David Fechner, Research Fellow, Social Marketing, Griffith University mavo/Shutterstock Imagine having dinner at a restaurant. The menu offers plant-based meat alternatives made mostly from vegetables, mushrooms, legumes and wheat that mimic meat in taste, texture and smell. Despite being given that ...
“Three Strikes is a dead-end policy proposed by a dead-end government. The Three Strikes law ignores the causes of crime, instead just brutalising people already crushed by the cost of living.” ...
By Don Wiseman, RNZ Pacific senior journalist An Australian-born judge in Kiribati could well face deportation later this week after a tribunal ruling that he should be removed from his post. The tribunal’s report has just been tabled in the Kiribati Parliament and is due to be debated by MPs ...
With its clear mandate for police use, political nuances, and nuanced public trust, Denmark's insights provide valuable considerations for Australia and New Zealand. ...
Books editor Claire Mabey reviews poet Louise Wallace’s debut novel. A famous poet once said to me that he’s always suspicious when a poet publishes a novel. I never really understood why but maybe it’s something to do with cheating on your first form. Louise Wallace is a poet. She’s ...
For a few months at the turn of the millennium, TrueBliss burned bright as the biggest pop stars in the country. Alex Casey chats to two superfans who still hold the flame. During a humble backyard wedding in Nelson, 1999, one of the cordially invited guests had to excuse themselves ...
How will the recent wave of job cuts impact ethnic diversity in the media? In November last year, I was working a very busy day in the newsroom of a large online news site, interviewing whānau about their concerns over the imminent closure of one of the few puna reo ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ruth Knight, Researcher, Queensland University of Technology Have you ever felt sick at work? Perhaps you had food poisoning or the flu. Your belly hurt, or you felt tired, making it hard to concentrate and be productive. How likely would you be ...
Despite heavy criticism and an ongoing select committee process, the Police Minister says the Government will forge ahead with a ban on gang patches. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sam Whiting, Lecturer – Creative Industries, University of South Australia Shutterstock Everyone has a favourite band, or a favourite composer, or a favourite song. There is some music which speaks to you, deeply; and other music which might be the current ...
A new survey says ‘outlook not great’ for those charged with building infrastructure, while RMA changes delight farmers and depress environmentalists, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. First RMA changes announced ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Olli Hellmann, Associate Professor of Political Science, University of Waikato Getty Images When New Zealanders commemorate Anzac Day on April 25, it’s not only to honour the soldiers who lost their lives in World War I and subsequent conflicts, but also ...
A leaked document shows the Canterbury/Waitaha arm of health agency Te Whatu Ora is scurrying to save $13.3 million by July. The “financial sustainability target”, which was “allocated” to Waitaha, is consistent with what’s happening in other districts, says Sarah Dalton, executive director of the Association of Salaried Medical Specialists. ...
A look at the state of the previous government’s affordable housing scheme, and what could come next.Remind me: What’s KiwiBuild again?First announced in 2012, KiwiBuild was a flagship policy of the Labour Party heading into both its 2014 and 2017 election campaigns. With Jacinda Ardern as prime minister, ...
Labour in opposition will be shocked to learn which party had six years in power but squandered any chance to make real change. Grant Robertson’s valedictory speech was a predictably entertaining trip down memory lane. The acid-tongued incoming Otago University chancellor administered a sick burn to the coalition government. He ...
The following interview with former Green Party MP Sue Kedgley came about because she features in the new memoir Hine Toa by activist Ngāhuia te Awekōtuku; the two knew each other at the University of Auckland in the early 70s, when they were both took on leadership roles in the ...
Taiwan’s semiconductor industry is seen some as its ‘silicon shield’ against invasion – but how will overseas expansion affect that protection? The post The state of Taiwan’s silicon shield appeared first on Newsroom. ...
There’s relief for building owners bending under the weight of earthquake strengthening rules – and costs – that came into force seven years ago. Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk has announced a scheduled 2027 review of the earthquake-prone building regulations will now start this year. Owners will also get ...
Opinion: It has been announced that nine percent of roles at Oranga Tamariki will be disestablished, presumably to help fund the tax cuts promised by the coalition Government. I am reminded of the graphics used to illustrate pandemic events, where five thousand people are standing in a field and then ...
After more than two sleepless days, running through savage terrain, Greig Hamilton didn’t know if he was going to finish one of the most gruelling psychological assaults in sport. He was metres away from the finish line, a yellow gate made famous in a Netflix documentary; a race he’d dreamed ...
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COMMENTARY:By Murray Horton New Zealand needs to get tough with Israel. It’s not as if we haven’t done so before. When NZ authorities busted a Mossad operation in Auckland 20 years ago, the government didn’t say: “Oh well, Israel has the right to defend itself.” No, it arrested, prosecuted, ...
NEWSMAKERS:By Vijay Narayan, news director of FijiVillage Blessed to be part of the University of Fiji (UniFiji) faculty to continue to teach and mentor those who want to join our noble profession, and to stand for truth and justice for the people of the country. I was privileged to ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Martin, Visiting Fellow, Crawford School of Public Policy, Australian National University Three weeks from now, some of us will be presented with a mountain of budget papers, and just about all of us will get to hear about them on radio, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Dan Lowry, Ice Sheet & Climate Modeller, GNS Science Hugh Chittock/Antarctica New Zealand, CC BY-SA As the climate warms and Antarctica’s glaciers and ice sheets melt, the resulting rise in sea level has the potential to displace hundreds of millions of ...
The government's plan to reintroduce a three strikes regime is being strongly opposed by lawyers, who argue there is no evidence it reduces crime or helps people rehabilitate. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Dan Jerker B. Svantesson, Professor specialising in Internet law, Bond University Do Australian courts have the right to decide what foreign citizens, located overseas, view online on a foreign-owned platform? Anyone inclined to answer “yes” to this question should perhaps also ask ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Giovanni E Ferreira, NHMRC Emerging Leader Research Fellow, Institute of Musculoskeletal Health, University of Sydney Last week in a post on X, owner of the platform Elon Musk recommended people look into disc replacement if they’re experiencing severe neck or back pain. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By David Hayward, Emeritus Professor of Public Policy, RMIT University anek.soowannaphoom/Shutterstock NSW Treasurer Daniel Mookhey caught the headlines yesterday, courtesy of a blistering speech condemning the latest GST carve-up. New South Wales, he claimed, would be A$11.9 billion worse off over the ...
While police are "broadly in favour", the government's proposed anti-gang laws are facing pushback from lawyers, rights groups and former gang members. ...
While police are "broadly in favour", the government's proposed anti-gang laws are facing pushback from lawyers, rights groups and former gang members. ...
By Miriam Zarriga in Port Moresby Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has arrived at Kokoda Station, Northern province, at the start of his state visit to Papua New Guinea. Both Albanese and Prime Minister James Marape will meet with the locals and the Northern Provincial government before they begin their ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Chris Wallace, Professor, School of Politics Economics & Society, Faculty of Business Government & Law, University of Canberra Shutterstock An important principle was invoked by Prime Minister Anthony Albanese last week in defence of the government’s Future Made in Australia industry ...
By Patrick Decloitre, RNZ Pacific correspondent French Pacific desk Security forces reinforcements were sent from France ahead of two rival marches in the capital Nouméa today, at the same time and only two streets away one from the other. One march, called by Union Calédonienne party (a component of the ...
A poll last August found that just 16% of New Zealanders oppose bringing back the ‘Three Strikes’ law. The nationwide poll of 1,000 New Zealanders was commissioned by Family First NZ and carried out by Curia Market Research. ...
The solo show from Ana Scotney is both sprawling and intimate, and a must-see, writes Mad Chapman. In the opening moments of Scattergun: After the Death of Rūaumoko, writer and performer Ana Scotney lays out the groundwork, literally. Silently moving around the square stage, Scotney is not so much dancing ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kate Burridge, Professor of Linguistics, Monash University Who makes the words? Why are trees called trees and why are shoes called shoes and who makes the names? – Elliot, age 5, Eltham, Victoria Good question Elliot! Let’s start with ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Stephen Duckett, Honorary Enterprise Professor, School of Population and Global Health, and Department of General Practice and Primary Care, The University of Melbourne at amRawpixel.com/Shutterstock Roles of health professionals are still unfortunately often stuck in the past. That is, before the ...
COMMENTARY:By Malcolm Evans Last week’s leaked New York Times staff directive, as to what words can and cannot be used to describe the carnage Israel is raining on Palestinians, is proof positive, since those reports are published verbatim here in New Zealand, that our understanding of the conflict is ...
In the case of New Zealand, the results confirm that there is no popular support for the vicious austerity program being imposed by the National Party-led government, which is backed in all fundamental respects by the opposition Labour Party. ...
The ‘Vampire’ singer has never visited our part of the world, but that might all be about to change. We assess the evidence.Olivia Rodrigo’s Guts World Tour is pulling in massive crowds as it whips around the US and Europe, even helping to catapult regular supporting act Chappell Roan ...
Testing of drinking water in rural Canterbury over the weekend by Greenpeace revealed that several public town supplies were reaching levels of nitrate above 5 mg/L - the threshold which a growing body of scientific evidence has linked to increased ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Rohan Fisher, Information Technology for Development Researcher, Charles Darwin University It may come as a surprise to hear 2023 was Australia’s biggest bushfire season in more than a decade. Fires burned across an area eight times as big as the 2019–20 Black ...
Responding to the Government’s announcement of changes to resource management laws, Taxpayers’ Union Executive Director, Jordan Williams, said: “These changes are a step in the right direction in terms of removing ideological and unworkable ...
More than two years after the Human Rights Council called for the establishment of a national human rights commission, such a body has yet to be formed. ...
Comment:An emergency management system with wide variations in performance, significant capability gaps, funding shortfalls and above all a setup that is not meeting the needs of New Zealanders at times of crisis. The Government’s inquiry into the response to Cyclone Gabrielle and other severe weather events in the North ...
Welcome to the whirring wonders of one brain trying to align its actions with its beliefs within a system it thinks is evil. My brain has been spiralling in a woke conundrum ever since I found out a bookshop I’ve never been to was shutting down. Good Books, a bookshop ...
We repeat our call for criminal justice policy to be based on evidence, something the three strikes regime neglects to recognise – with no evidence that it either reduces crime or assists with rehabilitation. ...
By Koroi Hawkins, RNZ Pacific editor in Honiara With only four more seats in the 50-member Parliament yet to be officially declared, there is no outright winner in the Solomon Islands elections. As of Monday, the two largest blocs in the winner’s circle, independents and the incumbent Prime Minister Manasseh ...
Two/fiftyseven is a multi-purpose space hidden in the heart of Wellington that is paving a way for sustainable building and responsible landlording in Aotearoa and beyond.By 2060 the world is predicted to double its entire building stock, which equates to building an entire New York City every 34 days, ...
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ECAN and aggressive farmers strangling Canterbury rivers.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/300797892/how-19-words-thwarted-efforts-to-save-our-shrinking-braided-rivers
"It’s a deceptively complicated question: What is a..?"
[Hi Robert, as per my earlier comment, you’re in premod until you respond to these two mod requests. This means your comments won’t appear on site until then.
.https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-04-2023/#comment-1944127
.https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-04-04-2023/#comment-1944129
Hoping we can sort this out promptly and then things can go back to normal. Thanks – weka]
[2 week ban for ignoring moderation – weka]
mod note above for you Robert.
@ Robert:
Assuming the question in question is the question "what is a woman".
Well, our cave ancestors all those millenia ago managed to figure it out, so I don't understand why some in modern day civilisation are have so much trouble. 😉
yes Anne…….best answer for ages.
And we like to think we have moved on from those days…..
Yes it was tongue in cheek Shanreagh. Glad you picked up on it and replied in kind. 🙂
We are never going to fully agree on this issue. Our viewpoints are often a result of past experiences, and I did have a very unusual experience which perhaps has coloured my personal view.
Considering what a dangerous world they lived in, our deep ancestors had to have been a lot smarter and tougher than we give them credit for.
I reckon if most of us moderns were popped back a millennia or so in some magical time machine, we likely wouldn't last 10 minutes.
They have always known what a woman was. They knew when they refused us any legal rights. They knew when they demanded access to our bodies for sex and used force if we declined. They knew when they paid us less, fired us for getting engaged or married, and would not let us do certain jobs. Up to about 5 years ago, they knew.
Now, they just pretend they don't.
They pretend they don't know for 2 reasons.
The first is that it suits them to pretend they don't know. They resented our attempts to be our own people, to have our own rights and protections. They resented our rights to say "no". Many of them are very happy to employ that old male enforcement – violence and the threat of violence – especially sexual violence. They really want us to know that they are violent – so they write it on their placards. "TERFS can suck my big Trans cock".
The second is that it is convenient to not know. And it is fashionable. A lot of $$$$ has gone in to making sure that people have all the excuses in the world to not know. They have been told that it is about Gay rights, about human rights, that it is about a vulnerable and oppressed minority.
The question is also an indication of your fealty or otherwise to the ideology. Putting your pronouns on your email signature, calling people "cis" , wearing a button or a lanyard is just as much a statement of belief as wearing a crucifix or similar.
The answer is going to annoy one group or another.
If the answer is the dictionary definition "Adult, Human Female", the wrath of the Transcult will descend on you.
If the answer is "anyone who says they are", which is the correct ideological statement, about 90% of the population will say "what"?
Your answer shows which group you favour.
Like language, dictionaries can react to changes of usage:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/woman
yes, thanks, we know that our rights are being removed via institutions and language.
that is what we all thought when Chippie said " That is an unexpected question from the left field and i don't have a 'preformulated answer' for it.
Imagine the confusion when the Titanic went down and it was women & children first to the lifeboats but nobody could answer that quintessential existential life-saving question
Apparently Luxon now can (almost).
https://twitter.com/aniobrien/status/1644492576224055296
Luxon has had the luxury of seeing Chippy stumble and his pr have been able to formulate a soundbyte for him. There is no way if blindsided he could’ve given a coherent answer.
Nevertheless a clear and simple response and position to a very simple question.
Yes and what surprises me about Hipkins is that given the PP rally and media interest that one of his team had not already flagged that this could be something that could be asked at anytime by media and front footed it. I think Ardern would have had a succinct reply in reserve.
I'm guessing its a function of No Debate. If you believe that GI is virtuous and GC is right wing bigotry, then you will be listening to NZ's version of Stonewall instead of feminists who have been pointing and saying 'look, there's a political shitstorm for the left in the UK around women's sex based rights'.
Even with Sturgeon the mainstream progressive narrative was burnout, misogynistic abuse, and maybe her husband's financial mess. Whereas to anyone paying actual attention past No Debate, that Sturgeon interview where she said the rapist was a TW but wouldn't say if he was a woman was a masterclass is how to fuck one's career and political party.
Luxon’s a useful parrot, for now.
I agree. And yet this has been playing out in the UK for a long time, so why weren't Labour prepared? It's almost like they don't know there is a gender/sex war going on and have bought into the idea that GC pol is based in bigotry and doesn't have any coherent politics or arguments. I hope Hipkins' PR and prep people got a talking to.
Exam cheating
Lol. National have better researchers than Labour.
Hi Robert, I've read your note in the back end and won't publish as requested.
One of the problems here is that both sides are not taking notice of moderation. I've been cutting you, Shanreagh, Molly etc slack, hoping you would sort it out. I can see that neither side is willing, so will be moderating sooner from now on across the board. This is election year and the only way this site can have a functional commentariat is if moderation is respected. The entrenched conflict in the past few weeks is not unusual here, I've seen it many times before. If commenters don't work within the boundaries of the site there is no way to get out of that.
The bottom line is that commenters cannot ignore moderation. In this case, I've asked you to link to something for evidence, and to clarify your soundbite comment. You've refused, twice, to do so. I don't know why you've refused, but we have moderation for a reason and it's really clear that there are patterns of behaviour on both sides that are causing problems. What I am moderating you for is consistent with moderation across all commenters and over a long period of time. I'm afraid I cannot treat you differently to other commenters in that respect.
I don't consider that you are trolling, so you are wrong about that. That is yet another example of how communication has broken down. I also object to your characterisation of my position in all this, because you simply haven't had any real conversations with me about my views, values and politics.
What I do know is that TS works best when people bring their thinking and arguments to the table, and present them in clean ways largely free of abuse. Both sides have been failing on this.
I will be looking at who ignored my general moderation notes the other day (haven't had time until now), and reminding them. If you decide to come back I'm thinking two things. One is that if you continue to ignore moderation and treat the place as if the rules don't apply to you, then you will most likely get banned again, and eventually a long ban. Two is that if you feel unfairly treated by commenters, then please contact one of the mods and explain what you see the problem is. Without that it's hard to act.
Incognito is aware of all of this too, I'll leave it to them to comment if they want.
with my mod hat off, I'm gutted. I feel like I am losing a friend. More than one probably.
In my opinion the tolerance you showed to that contributor seemed endless.
We are poles apart politically Weka, but I doubt you have lost friends, you certainly have gained my respect in making what I suspect was, for you, a difficult call.
I moderated here for about 10 yrs before giving it away; it is not an easy task, and at moments a total bitch. On this matter I would say weka is speaking total truth.
thanks hetzer, much appreciated.
The primary problem was not moderation. Believing this is missing the (main) point. Propagating it is diverting and/or deflecting away from taking ownership and thus of avoiding responsibility, which is ironically typical of the whole debate debacle.
Any strong relationship can withstand the occasional argument & disagreement. How you work through it, with trust and respect, is something for the two people involved to decide, and IMO is better done off-line.
I'm not sure who you mean is not taking responsibility, but from my perspective the primary problem was moderation and disrespect of it, and me (atm, it could be any mod though). Not just with RG either.
I disagree! Moderation became an (not the) issue later on when things were already going off the rails badly. It may have been or become the issue for you as Mod, especially once you put on your Mod hat.
Yes, disrespecting other commenters and Mods in particular has become a bit of an issue across the board. Because of this and because it is Election Year (and because I’m very busy with my paid job) I have shortened my Mod fuse.
I’ve said this before, just recently in a comment, when one is banned, a contributing factor is often other comments/commenters – bans are almost never ‘single-car accidents’, i.e., entirely self-inflicted. In my opinion, this was a large factor in the repeated dismissal of Robert’s comments and ultimately of his dismissal from this site. Undoubtedly, others won’t see it the same way (at all?) and (completely?) wash their hands off it, which is reflective (and symptomatic) of some of the things that have been and are still being said here since (but also before) the Albert Park event.
Wading into ‘the debate’ is like walking into a North-Korean minefield playing Russian roulette with a loaded double-barrel shotgun with an inevitable fate (demise) awaiting. For some, despite good intentions …
so what is the issue then?
Yes, patterns of behaviour arise in the context of debates that involve other people. But anyone who takes the position that the rules don't apply to them and they can just ignore them, is obviously a problem for maintaining robust debate.
There were problems on all sides, but this one today came down to the basics. I can't see how it is tenable to have people here who believe that they can do what they like without regards for the debate norms and moderation.
I intervened a number of times before today and both sides appear to have been ignoring that. I let it slide. Won't be doing that again.
The way I see it things were derailing badly well before you started formally modding and I’ve already said this. That was the primary issue – and it remains unresolved now Robert has been red-carded and sent off the field.
Other commenters can be quite persistent too and some have disappeared for good or copped long bans – the ban list is getting longer. The ones that keep trying need to walk a very fine line, which begs the question whether this is the debate people here want and on those terms.
Yes, not properly responding to Mod notes justifies a ban, no question about it and I don’t care who it is but I tend to give some people (a little) more credit than others based on track record and history of behaviour. I think you do too. Actually, I do care and find it harder to ban some than others …
At that point, and from Robert’s perspective, the outcomes were inevitable.
From my perspective, as TS commenter, it is regrettable.
Ok. Can you please explain how you see the things that were derailing badly? People were in a right over quite a number of days, which is no unusual for TS. I don't see how that per se is the problem here. Are you saying that it was a failure of moderation in addition to people doing something (as yet unnamed)?
The self-styled "guardians of the land" at work.
Actions speak louder than words.
Here is a link from an article by Luke Malpass from Stuff.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/131700713/this-election-may-be-negative-but-it-wont-be-about-imported-culture-wars
I have never rated Luke Malpass and the first part of this article reinforces why I do not.
First of all it is clear that he has talking points:
'Culture Wars'
Ever since Plunket asked his questions of the PM this has been framed as a 'culture war' imported from overseas conveniently forgetting that NZ women fought hard against the NO Debate: Self ID concept. SUFW was taken to court by people seeking to have a declaration made that SUFW was a hate group for running a meeting where women could speak about No Debate.
https://www.franksogilvie.co.nz/news/case-brief-whitmore-v-palmerston-north-city-council
The framing of the issue as a culture war is to minimise what is happening. It relegates it to an issue not much more important than whether exposure to all sorts of music, singing is good for developing minds….interesting but not seen as important in the 'heavy & weighty' ideas of government or should I provocatively say male politicians and journalists? .
It's a done deal
legislation is not static. Just because it is there does not mean
1 it is good legislation
2 it deserves to be there forever.
All parties I think were dealt a very clever snow job in relation to Self ID. It was framed as an equitable and perhaps honourable thing to help a so-called marginalised group. From its earliest appearance this concept has caused concern amongst women
From at least 2018 in UK there was concerns that led to the billboards
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-45650462
I think it's relevant to add that despite the #NoDebate political and public climate, 6,609 submissions were made in terms of the changes to BDMRR in 2021:
https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FSpeakUp4WomenNZ%2Fposts%2F1210846262756868&show_text=true&width=500"
Very relevant. Thanks Molly.
Many people saw this issue fitted into the concept of the Emperor having no clothes, not just one little boy.
Numbers on their own are rather meaningless and only useful to bean counters and amateur statisticians with an abacus – not all submissions are equal in the same way as not all comments here on TS are equal when it comes to constructive debate.
Numbers can be indicative, even if they are not conclusive.
IIRC, SUFW had more details of their analysis on their Facebook account at the time, but I don't have a Facebook account, so just provided the link and quote I had booked.
Weight the information as you wish.
Those numbers are indicative of how emotive the topic-issue is, IMO. They tell us nothing about the content of the submissions other than a most-superficial binary categorisation of “For” vs. “Against”. This might be good enough for some to base conclusions on that can feed into a narrative but it is a mug’s game nonetheless. A unanimous vote in Parliament as the legislative end result has more weight, which does not mean that we have achieved perfection.
That's an interpretation, Incognito.
As I mentioned IIRC SUFW did analyse the submissions further.
Perhaps someone else will post, if they have access to Facebook, or have bookmarked it.
SUFW have updated their website, and I can't find it there.
And one of the most exhaustively consulted bills in decades.
And voted 100% in favour across every single Member of Parliament.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/457575/parliament-unanimously-passes-bill-allowing-change-to-birth-certificates
Reversing a key provision of this law would require at least one party to put up a bill in the next parliament repealing it. There isn't one.
"Reversing a key provision of this law would require at least one party to put up a bill in the next parliament repealing it. There isn't one."
I know.
More's the pity.
Perhaps there's hope… There isn't one yet
The more this becomes a political issue, which has the potential to gut the vote to political parties, the more their self-interest will encourage them to change.
As I said Ad
Are you not prepared to accept that it does cause concern amongst women?
I think a provision about biological sex such as RT Hon Kemi Badenoche has said she will investigate could go along way. It works from the UK Equality Act
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/apr/04/kemi-badenoch-could-rewrite-law-to-allow-trans-exclusion-from-single-sex-spaces
There is reference to safe spaces in our legislation that was put out as being able to lessen the concern for women. I am not sure it is strong enough to withstand legal challenges from the very wealthy trans lobby.
Do yourself a solid favour Shanreagh and make an appointment with your local MP, or any MP you like, and try and change their mind.
It’s election year; maybe you’ll find yourself an aspiring Parliamentary Patron Saint of Lost Causes.
Uncalled for Ad.
Reported
If you're commenting about politics you're going to get practical political advice.
You want the law changed; you know what you have to do.
Ad
Your last sentence was not practical advice. It was designed to place me in the echelon of so called 'deluded' women like the ones who will huge amounts of money to the Battersea Dogs Home or Margaret Doucan who donated $10,00s to the Wellington SPCA. All served to me with a snide side of religious stuff …..St Jude.
I have been donating to the only organisation that I believe is trying to make a difference and that is Speak Up for Women.
https://www.speakupforwomen.nz/
Unfortunately to do this I have had to stop the admittedly small donation/s I was making to NZ Labour and NZ Greens. But I am sure you will be able to cover these donations by upping yours so they can both continue on their female exclusionary ways.
I have also bought myself T shirts ex PP and one ex Mana Korero Wahine.
Now you can spend the rest of the weekend feeling both politically homeless and offended.
Maybe try Twitter.
[stop trolling. I’ve got enough to do already without having to sort out a flame war – weka]
Labour /Greens won't get my little bit of money.
Labour may get my party vote depending on how they shape up with climate change and 3 Waters.
I am unsure of the candidate yet. It won't be the Labour one though as our local was one of the shouters outside the SUFW meeting trying to debate the No Debate ideology. ie trying to disrupt the free speech of others.
I actually know I won't get much traction here……I've been commenting here on women's issues long enough and this issue in particular to know that. There are a good band of women here who I value and a few open hearted males who are trying to understand the issues and who I also value. I comment mainly to inform this group.
I do derive sustenance from and access to some sparkling research from Twitter and blogs from around the world. I have brought some of it here from time to time to move/inform the argument from a left woman's point of view.
I also try not to insult or belittle others in the pursuit of my women’s issues.
Too be clear,I’m speaking of you ADVantage.
Don't no whats wrong with you fellow,do you think your better/smarter than the rest of us. How about less of the ad hominem.
mod note.
https://fyi.org.nz/request/14305-the-results-of-the-2020-election-vote-compass-question-on-gender-self-identification?unfold=1
Yes but as you will see Ad and Incognito the public didn't support this bill. It was introduced by stealth and never campaigned on.
I think you will find that as more people realize how gender ideology has infiltrated the GReens and the Labour Party, the public service and the msm and start to realize what it is all about, even more people will swing in against self id.
Despite the massive hit job by the msm, politicians and the Labour Party, people saw with their own eyes what happens when you stand up to tras. Saturday Albert Park a day of great shame. Women there to listen peacefully to other women, threatened, assaulted, spat at and police activity avoiding intervening. Of course the pure trans joy crowd don't realize what a peaking experience this has been for many. People see with their own eyes the sort of authoritarianism that shuts down peaceful protest by women.
There is a new gender critial group on FB that in a week gannered nearly 2000 women in under a week. SUFW has been deluged with women wanting to join since Posie. If you read the comments in the Daily Blog, a left wing blog, the overwhelming majority are disgusted with gender ideology and what happened in Albert Park. They are saying they won't vote Greens.
Re an unanious vote in Parliament for the bill. The truth is many who don't agree with gender ideology are too scared to speak up. Politicians know that up till now it was career ending to defy the authoritarian cult of gender.
Let's accept then that there is no way the law will be changed in this Parliament or the next.
Let's also accept just for arguments' sake that no political party with MPs, and no current Member of Parliament, wants to change the law either.
What then is your practical avenue for your voice of concern about women being deprived of human rights here?
If some great pool of latent fear that New Zealand human rights really is being stripped away, then your legitimate avenue is to take case to the Human Rights Commission.
Go for it. Make the case and the report will be tabled in Parliament.
If you see some human activity that needs greater regulation, trust me New Zealand is one of the most law-regulated countries in the world, and you will find a regulator to take a case with.
Report back on how you get on.
Thanks Ad for the advice. We are strategising all the time on this.
We have taken a lot of heart from the own goal the tras at Albert Park scored.
The current Human Rights Commissioner was at Civic Square in Wellington on the 26th with the trans rights activists. After the violence in Albert Park, we were too scared to go to Civic Square, especially after the Wellington Mayor, Tory Whanau, had promised Let Women Speak the same response they got at Albert Park. We did meet to support each other. There we a lot of shocked women, who couldn't believe yet again their voice had been shut down, this time by violence and intimidation.
Paul Hunt is no friend to us. We will have to wait for the new government in October (I hope) to bring in a commissioner who is concerned with everyone's human rights.
Here's a hint in policy discussion still afoot, this time within the NZ Law Commission:
https://www.lawcom.govt.nz/our-projects/legal-responses-hate#:~:text=In%20phase%20one%20(which%20the,hate%20speech%20or%20hate%20crime.
Attorney General Parker might not be one's cup of tea, so you could just engage with the Commissioners directly.
Second that
I wrote to him and got this reply
'You may be interested in reading his opinion piece about the rally, available here: https://tikatangata.org.nz/news/no-human-right-eclipses-another-is-lesson-from-parker'
To which I responded:
'Thank you.
Glaring by its omission is the lack of confirmation that women have rights as well.
It could have easily been inserted in the paragraph confirming that trans people have rights……here:
The Let Women Speak campaign has as one part, to stop the notion that giving rights to one section of our community means taking them away from other sectors.
I feel very sad that a practitioner/leader in the rights movement sees no need to reassure women that our rights will not be trampled on and will be respected.
Plus I do think that giving voice to unresearched talking points about the prevalence of human rights breaches in the trans community, that is a tiny part of our community is regrettable
There has been research done on these talking points.
https://thecritic.co.uk/neither-marginalised-abused-nor-vulnerable/?fbclid=IwAR2tG9aStkbefxA-3k5RNUjOO9Lo3Pe7fVT7wvTmtZcnJ1yHbB7SuHgcxEg.
Last but not least I am sad that you have to relate to women by using a made up word that places women (around 51%) and our roles/lives in a subordinate position in the world to the tiny trans community.
I believe that our trans community is deserving of living happy and free lives but not at at the expense of women.'
I have no doubt I will not get an acknowledgement/reply. Too hard, you know 'awkward'.
I have forwarded it on to SUFW who have acknowledged it.
Paul Hunt was a contributor to the Yogyakarta Principles which may give you some insight into his reply to you.
Here's a Twitter thread that may be of interest to you.
I've followed up previously to confirm my first sentence, but I haven't done so for the rest:
https://twitter.com/YPinfo101/status/1460722439881641992?s=20
also,
https://twitter.com/aniobrien/status/1518693369383243776
https://twitter.com/beth_nosnhoj/status/1518698160205361152
Thanks, weka.
Do you remember what the setting was for the conversation? (I'm unable to discern it from the replies I can see.)
I don’t, I’ve only seen it referenced sometimes on twitter. I would guess that it was a sit down between HRC and SUFW. I will ask.
@weka
Don't worry, it's not important. Just thought you might recall.
it’s ok, I want to know anyway. I’ve been meaning to ask about it for ages.
Follow up article regarding another signatory, Prof Wintermute:
https://www.genderdissent.com/post/the-man-who-suddenly-heard-women-and-renounced-the-yogyarta-principles
It gives an insight into the process and considerations that were made at the time.
It's comments like this that make me lament the fate of humankind.
We have a marginalized community being targeted by another marginalized community with no give on either side and both sides high on rhetoric and low on facts.
Where are the practical examples of a man falsely claiming to be a women to enter a safe space for women where he only was able to because of self-id? The actual women I have talked to are not worried about it because that same male could do that now if they wanted to, with or without a law…
Surely there could be some actual discussion on this where the Trans community is treated with respect and women feel safe?
Although I am not convinced any real woman is feeling unsafe because of this law as it seems more and more to be imported outrage manufactured to incite people who should know better… but then i wouldn't actually know… that is just my view from the outside looking in
Next we will be talking about the trans-agenda in schools and how they are brain washing our kids…
So far, so rhetorical. Where are your facts?
"Where are the practical examples of a man falsely claiming to be a women to enter a safe space for women where he only was able to because of self-id?"
Convoluted way of saying that any man – if they so wish – can enter a female-only space, so why not break those single-sex boundaries?
When single-sex provisions are protected by legislation, policy and guidelines, breaching of single-sex boundaries are more noticeable and easily identified. The fact that this kind of argument is accepted as evidence of no harm, has led to the elimination of single-sex provisions in many policies and guidelines.
"The actual women I have talked to are not worried about it because that same male could do that now if they wanted to, with or without a law…"
That is not the issue. Your actual women have not considered the wider impacts, although they are right on this to a degree.
"Surely there could be some actual discussion on this where the Trans community is treated with respect and women feel safe?"
Women do not have to feel unsafe to say "No." Although it may be a factor for some, it is not the only one.
Trans community are treated equally to everybody else when they are requested to use the facility provided for their sex-category. That is equality. That is respect.
"Next we will be talking about the trans-agenda in schools and how they are brain washing our kids…"
Already concerned.
Shaneel Lal apparently has been employed as a Youth Advisor for the Ministry of Education for over five years. This may explain the current state of the recent RSE curriculum, and the direction to third party organisations for curriculum resources.
https://hpe.tki.org.nz/assets/healthpe/pdfs/J000765-MoE-RSE-Where-do-I-go-to-for-2.0-EG.pdf
Thanks Molly for answering You_fool.
I would add that it is hard to argue that the trans community is marginalized when they are so embedded in Government depts, msm and education etc etc. That line doesn’t stack up. They have more power and influence than almost any other group. Why do people think Hipkins was so reluctant to give a straight forward answer about what is a women..
And the police response in Albert Park, seem to indicate that tras are influencing the police
See now I know you have no desire to see anything work out… and why I know that this shit is just transphobia and possibly an attempt to get fundamentalist dogma as law… it may be the top of the slippery slope but it is still part of the same hill…
Trans need the safe spaces for the same reason women do,because we have a society which had spent hundreds of years allowing SDE men to think they can do what they want with other people's bodies… sure we could spend some time and energy on fixing that but then we couldn't demonize a whole other
One word for you "Fool" – autogynephilia. We are not talking Carmen and Georgina here. We are talking about Gender Ideology. We are talking about men who are sexually aroused by the thought of themselves as women. Mostly straight men. Sexually attracted to women.
https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/this-never-happens?s=r&fbclid=IwAR1sWzaCaN5R4HquY3Ikv4C3yhoEWimm9xo8d5tsOr_gYt4eRucFdbpmZzY
SDE?
women's sex based rights aren't fundamentalism. But I agree that the war is getting so partisan that some people are now refusing to have any sense of rapprochement. Both sides are doing this. It's the worst political fight I have ever seen.
SDE = Small dick energy
"Trans need the safe spaces for the same reason women do,because we have a society which had spent hundreds of years allowing SDE men to think they can do what they want with other people's bodies… sure we could spend some time and energy on fixing that but then we couldn't demonize a whole other"
Everyone needs a safe space. Not necessarily for the same reasons.
Since you are advocating for facts, could you provide some to answer these initial questions about safety, that I posted in response to a comment made by Kit several days ago:
Single-sex provisions are because there are material, practical, privacy, dignity, fairness and safety reasons that returns value to all for such categories.
Safety is only one factor for the provision of single-sex spaces but since it is the one you focus on, let's address it:
1. Safeguarding is based on risk assessment statistics. That evidence provides the criteria for the best broad stroke categories that will significantly reduce the likelihood of harm for all users. In cases where users are in various states of undress or vulnerable, the provision category that provides the best outcomes is that of sex.
2. Therefore, the continuation of the benefit is reliant on maintaining single-sex spaces.
3. A compelling argument supported by robust evidence is required before single-sex provisions should be relinquished.
4. What kind of evidence should be part of the discussion?
a. Are men who identify as women included in current safeguarding statistics? (Yes.)
b. Is there evidence that men who identify as women pose a significantly lower risk than any other man? (No, statistically they hold the same risk factor. In fact, in terms of convictions, their risk for sexual offences is higher than men without gender identities)
c. Are they are higher degrees of risk if they continue to use the single-sex provision that they belong to? (There has never been any evidence put forward that this is the case, it is often an assumption that other men are unable to cope with a non-conforming male.)
d. If they are at higher degree or risk, is it higher than other vulnerable males? (ie. unaccompanied children, males with mobility issues, males impaired by substance abuse, homeless males, males with mental incapacity etc. I can think of many men who are vulnerable in ways that Alex Drummond from Stonewall is not, and they still respect the boundaries of single-sex provision)
e. That vulnerability – when it is finally evidenced and defined – still must be of such statistical significance that it outweighs the benefits (in terms of safeguarding only) of division by sex.
People within the transgender community are being treated equally to everyone else when they are expected to respect the social contract and boundaries of single-sex provisions.
They are not excluded in any way, because they are included with all others of their sex, in those single-sex provisions.
Yes. As mentioned provision divided by sex, delivers that to a high degree.
This is rhetoric unless it is supported by robust and impartially collected statistical data. Have you got any?
Not true. They can use the public space of their sex category without impediment.
Link to my comment that I've quoted from below:
https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-02-04-2023/#comment-1943590
I don't think any of this was a response to me, or was it?
in any regard… err… citation needed?
@You_Fool
Yes, it was.
But during my absence the conversation has moved on somewhat.
What citation do you want in regards to my comment, and I'll provide?
Were you responding to me you fool?
If you are, I am not religious at all, let alone fundamentalist.
"You have know desire to have anything work out". Well we gender critical people have never been engaged with by politicians etc who maybe we could have worked things out with"
I reject the accusation of transphobia. It is the response of people who have no proper arguements. About a month ago I was in our local dairy and had a very pleasant interaction with a trans woman. I know he was a man, his voice, height and hands gave it away. But I take people as I find them. But women fought hard for their sex based rights and anyone encroaching on that will not be welcome by me.
You know what……it isn't my job to have things work out for trans people. That is up to them to lobby for their own safe spaces. I would encourage them to do so without imposing on ours.
Why do you fight with fundamentalist arguments then? why do you make transphobic statements? seems strange to me for someone who is neither of these things
You fool can you tell me what of my arguements are "fundamentalist"?
What statements have I made that are transphobic? I never quite understand what that word means.
I got peaked into being gender critical because a very dear relative of mine and her partner (lesbians) have faced harrasment and intimidation and cancellation by trans rights activists. It was vicious and the shutting down of the two lesbian women was abhorant to me. This has nothing to do with trans people but the activists involved in this malicious activity (who may have been trans, heterosexual, gay whatever). Their activism centred around a compulsion to say that trans women are real women. Neither my relative or her partner could say that, because they don't believe it. Neither do I. I don't believe it is possible to change your sex, there is overwhelming evidence that this is the case and I refused to be coerced into saying so. that is one of the many signs to me that gender ideology has strong authoritarian tendcancies. Confirmed of course by an angry mob shutting women down with violence and intimidation.
"And the police response in Albert Park, seem to indicate that tras are influencing the police"
The woman who was the police coordinator to the #LetWomenSpeak event, said the following (timestamped for convenience):
https://youtu.be/TJ9FqiNcV80?t=577
(Plunket interrupts: Whoa, Hang on. So, the police would meet with him, but not you?)
Here's another explanation. Many people in NZ want to be kind to trans people, and thus support their push for rights without understanding the issues very well. Some New Zealanders have people they care about who are trans and their rights matter a great deal to them. It doesn't require a TRA/police conspiracy theory to try and make sense of what happened, nor does it require making trans people the enemy.
We don't know what happened other than the police didn't do their job. We don't know why or who was involved in the decisions. With luck we will eventually know once the events are investigate by the PCA.
The women in the link I provided, is relating her experience as the police liaison for the event. She said that up until the 26 March, her contact with the police was as expected, professional, detailed and open.
It was only on the day, when there was a failure to meet set appointments, or organise the barriers, or return calls that her experience was negative.
I don't think reporting her experience – is coming to any sort of conclusion. It does however – raise possible questions – or directions for OIA's to be submitted to get clarification.
I’m familiar with what happened on the day and the first hand accounts. I was responding to Anker’s sentence which you led with.
I don't think describing that the police were absent despite liaising with the Let women speak group for weeks before, is a conspiracy theory. It is what is being reported and is easily viewed in the on-line footage at Albert Park.
On another note the Police were at the Michael Fowler centre for Pride in 2021 when a gender critical woman , a lesbian tried to gain access to the event and was refused because of her gender critical views. The police attended in order to exclude this frail, elderly women.
To keep balance though, I note PP was very grateful to the police who kept her safe and saw her out of the country. She said the were great.
Of course. But you said,
Which does suggest police collusion with activists. If that’s not what you meant, perhaps you could clarify.
If you conflate gender/trans ideology/TRAs, with trans people generally, like you just have, then you will get people like You_Fool calling you transphobic and with some justification. This is an own goal and it's utterly unnecessary.
quick questions, is "Tras" meant to be a new insult against transpeople? Genuinely confused…
TRA = trans right activist.
I didn't used to use it because it seemed like people were trying to make a connection between MRA (men's rights activists who are anti feminist and often sexist/misogynistic), but now I think things have moved on sufficiently that it's accurate enough.
It's important to see a distinction between trans people (who believe a range of things just like other groups do), and the activists pushing gender identity ideology. Trans people deserver respect and to have their rights upheld like other people do. TRAs deserve to have their positions and values challenged for the regressive politics they are and for the negative impact on women, lesbians/gays, and children
So tras = terf
TRA = trans rights activist
TERF = trans exclusionary radical feminist (used as a slur by TRAs).
They’re two different and opposing sides of the war
I mean they are the same concept… a definition that had meaning but just gets waved at anyone that needs othering
Not quite. Terf is the word associated with extreme online violence, including sexual violence, being targeted at women.
TRA is politicising language in a different way.
But what is the word you would use to describe activists who promote gender identity ideology?
I use it for shorthand for trans rights activists. A lot of these people aren't transgender.
I heard a lesbian women talking about Albert Park and her perspective is that the Rainbow community now includes some heterosexual people who refer to themselves as non binary.
To date no one has ever given me a satisfactory definition of non binary.
Hi You Fool have responded to your question about my "fundamentalist" beliefs and "transphobia". Didn't seem to be able to reply to your question about this, but it is on this thread.
You are correct Weka we need to wait to see what the police complaints authority has to say.
I am usually someone who is on the side of the police. Their failure to act in Albert Park needs to be called to account
"The Ministry has Fallen" details the influence of the Transcult on the Ministry of Education and others.
https://theministryhasfallen.substack.com/p/the-terrible-coyness-of-trans-ideology?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=share&s=r&fbclid=IwAR3NdoIi7ttBDHJQOq7PDZoCLqqA0Q-UZJjoIH1-yEdckHQdeJEjMEJfrVY
My big question no one from the trans side is answering is
Why does the safe space for the trans community have to be the same safe spaces that are precious to women?
Surely if transpeople are unsafe using the facility for their sex then the work needs to be done around making not only the facilities better say more cubicles (I don't know) or men's attitudes to non conforming males.
I have not had an answer, except the response from Visubversa. This response is so common world wide when we seek to understand why, that I have no reason to doubt it.
But You_fool hopefully may be able to let us know……..please.
It would move the debate along immeasurably.
We would know then about building/maintaining/altering separate safe spaces for women and the Trans community easily accommodated I would have thought in the current men's spaces. Plus getting behind an attitudinal change to ensure that men are more accepting of gender non conforming males.
Good question, why isn't it been talked about? Or if it has why is one side ignoring the other about it?
This is actually my primary issue, we have women's rights basically descending into all-out transphobia that seems to be stoked by fundamentalist christian/religious ideals vs a trans community which is now being attacked and ostracised on 2 side
Why is it that this can only be about yelling at each other?
No one answered my question, what is it about self-id that inherently makes women unsafe? Or if you prefer, what is it about self-id that makes a women less of a women? As far as I can see the only arguments have nothing to do with Self-ID as all the worries would be the same with out self-id if the offending male wanted to offend all the same. Nothing changes
Self ID is both a legislative change and a sociopolitical change. It means that any man at any time can say they are a women and must be treated as if that is literally true.
This has led to rapists being housed in women's prisons and sexually assaulting women prisoners.
That has already happened. Women are so angry now, because we told society this would happen and we got told to shut the fuck up bigot terfs.
The prison example is just the most obvious and easy one to use to explain the problem. I'm happy to talk about other aspects if you want.
Generally gender conforming men don't use women's spaces. So when a man is in a women's toilet for example, it's going to get challenged. Self ID undermines that because we are being told that any man can be a woman. Self ID means that any man can be a TW without any kind of transition at all.
Women cannot predict which males will be violent to women. This is why we have single sex spaces. From this safety perspective, there is no difference between men, men pretending to be women, and TW. They are all male and of the class of people that commit violence against women in sufficient numbers and times to require female only spaces.
There are other reasons for women's spaces too, not just safety. Privacy, dignity, women's culture.
No Debate has been an intentional political strategy, started by UK trans lobby group Stonewall and enforced first by liberals and then by institutions. People who spoke up, mainly but not only women, have lost their jobs/careers, been doxxed, been abused, had police harassment, been arrested for tweeting.
Because of that, many, many people are afraid to speak, because of risk to their jobs, careers, and social life.
I'm a left wing, gender critical feminist. This war has nothing to do with fundamentalist Christians for me. The people I follow are mostly left wing gender critical feminists and other socially progressive GC people.
In the US it's different because fundamentalists have such a strong influence on politics there. And in other places there is an element of conservatism involved.
Think of it as a war with three sides:
1. GCFs (mostly left or centre left), and other GC people who span the political compass. Support gender non-conformity, oppose gender identity trumping biological sex.
2. Conservative religious people. Oppose gender non-conformity.
3. Gender identity ideologists/TRAs. Say they support gender non-conformity while simultaneously enforcing gender conformity. Push the idea that sex isn't real or is no longer that relevant.
See I hear this whole 3side thing but the arguments are only 2 sided either being Trans is a thing or it is not… hence my equating it with fundamentalism.. nothing here seems to suggest that there is a 3rd side
What do you mean ‘being trans is a thing or not’?
Obviously there are plenty of GC people who know that trans people exist and are fine with that. And many GC people are left wing and progressive.
That gets said but that isn't the arguments being raised… the arguments seem to be that Trans women are men and should stick to the penis having rooms
trans women are biologically male (if you disagree you’d have to make the case). And because trans woman now means any male can say they are a TW at any time, then they should stay out of women’s space.
Many GCFs argue for third spaces (myself included). The obvious solution to the prison problem is to build specialist units for males that are particularly vulnerable.
Perhaps you could link to TRA advocating for their own spaces, carved out from existing men's spaces, rather than infringing on women's ones.
Even, if was accompanied by a "we don't think this is an issue, but you (GCF) clearly think it is – so how's this for a solution"
That would be an example of this 3side thing from the TRA side.
You Fool, If we are in a changing room, in a state of undress and a male bodied person who identifies as a women comes in, then the self id laws have just made two current crimes legal ie. vouyerism and exhibitionism.
I don't want male bodied people in my change rooms, my daughters change room or young girls change rooms. That's pretty much in on the change room issue.
@You_Fool
"… the arguments seem to be that Trans women are men and should stick to the penis having rooms".
Actually, that is not an argument. It is a maintenance of existing single-sex provisions.
Because – as you know – sex and gender identity are two different classification systems.
The one that applies in this case is sex.
An argument needs to be provided as to why these boundaries should be broken.
Do you have one?
"We have a marginalized community…"
Neither marginalised, abused nor vulnerable | Madison Smith | The Critic Magazine
Let me just check with you: are you referring to the same BDMRR 2021 that Molly referred to @ 2.1 that attracted 6,609 submissions? The same Act that has a history that goes back to 2016 (and beyond)?
https://www.dia.govt.nz/bdmreview—history-of-the-BDMRR-Act
The rest of your comment is side-salad to me, to be tossed aside.
from memory,
I don’t rely on (my) memory. For example:
https://www.dia.govt.nz/bdmreview—history-of-the-BDMRR-Act
If people allege stealth they’d better support it with facts! It says more about the person crafting the stealth narrative than about what actually happened.
Not everything a Government does or does not during a 3-year election cycle can and must (or should) be campaigned on! Is our trust in our political system and politicians so low that we have to have everything in writing before we (can) vote for them?
well yes, in this case trust in our political system if very low, as evidenced by the number of left/centre left people currently saying they are politically homeless.
Your quote doesn’t address the ‘stealth’ issue of how the changes were made to the Bill initially. I’ll see if I can find some explanation on line later (someone else might here might have it handy too).
To me, ‘stealth’ means undetected, hidden, and secret. And in this context it is by design for nefarious reasons. This is just not consistent with the information that is out there.
These sorts of unfounded or ambiguous allegations only damage the dwindling trust that is still left. NB one would think that the Left has more trust in Government than the Right but even that notion seems to have been turned on its head.
I'm afraid it has.
What word would you use for the introduction of change to a Bill during select committee without doing that in an upfront and public way?
The Bill introduced in 2017 was focussed on admin of Births Death and Marriages.
https://www.publicgood.org.nz/wp/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/What-they-do-in-the-shadows-Part-1.pdf
If you go to page 5 of this document you can read about the stealth like process
thanks, I was hoping someone would have that to hand.
My next point would be the reason commenters on one of NZ's largest left wing blogs don't know about that is because of No Debate.
(I'm reasonably confident the BDMRR stealth change has been discussed on TS before)
Is it ‘stealth’ or ‘stealth-like’? And what do you really mean when you use these terms? And whether there’s some kind of maleficent intention behind it, because that’s the vibe your allegations and comments give off to me.
I read the section and I read how complex the matter was (and possibly still is).
I can think of two potential understandings.
I’m very doubtful that 1 is possible. I don’t think 2 has to be maleficent, more the actions of people who consider their cause righteous.
Stealth or stealth like, what do I really mean?
Good question. I mean that Labour/Greens brought the bill in with as little public scrutinay as possible. And I think they did that, because they didn’t want to listen or consider anyone who opposed the bill. There is good evidence for what I say, including the behaviour of those women MP’s at the select committee. Anyone who was opposed to the bill was treated with hostility and accused of transphobia amongst other things. It was a shock to see our MPs behave in this way.
Thanks for accepting the material I linked by Jill and Jan. I hoped to find more, but am a bit busy nowadays.
The BDMRR Bill introduced by National was basically a non contraversial bill re admin of BDand M records. It went through select committee and then post select committee the Greens added the gender ID part. Tracey Martin (the Minister at the time) mothballed the bill, after advice that there were some conflict of rights that would need addressing. So people like me thought that that was done and dusted pretty much. As a member of the Labour Party in the numerous surveys they sent out in 2020 they never asked me about gender id. They asked about a range of other issues, trying to ascertain what the membership thought was important. Labour didn't put gender id in their manifesto either (they did put the conversion therapy bill in). So it was a big surprize that they resserected the bill. Most people I talk to who don't follow politics closely have no idea about the bill. And I can't quite remember how it played out, but it possible that they tried to avoid a select committee process on gender id. Don't quote me on that, that is my memory.
I am not sure what the justification is for allowing anyone, particularly males to change their sex on their birth certificate. A birth certificate is a historical record relating to details of your birth. I changed my name, and despite doing this, my original/maiden name is still on my birth certificate.
Also, it is worth looking at the scope of the Working Group that was set up after that issue was brought up:
https://www.dia.govt.nz/diawebsite.nsf/Files/BDMR-Engagement/$file/Report-of-the-Working-Group-for-reducing-barriers-to-changing-registered-sex-(full-report).pdf
And the people who were part of it:
39. The Working Group has six members:
Kate Scarlet (Chair) Senior Community Lawyer and co-founder of Naming New Zealand
Jack Byrne Senior health and human rights researcher with expertise in legal gender recognition for trans and non-binary people.
Jeannie Oliphant Sexual Health Physician (FAChSHM) based at Auckland Sexual Health Service and vice president of The Professional Association for Transgender Health Aotearoa (PATHA).
Mani Mitchell Executive Director and founder of the Intersex Trust Aotearoa New Zealand, Counsellor/Clinical Supervisor MNZAC
Fleur Fitzsimons Parent to a transgender child and a Wellington City Councillor with portfolio responsibility for community wellbeing
Ahi Wi-Hongi National Coordinator for Gender Minorities Aotearoa, and a Māori, transgender, human rights advocate who works to improve public health access for gender minorities.
The report is worth the read to see how many recommendations are made across ministries and policies from this small group, with quite a paucity of supporting data.
Shanreagh, also posted back in 2021 a comment pertinent to the consultation, particularly in regards to the heavily redacted regulatory impact statement:
https://thestandard.org.nz/womens-space/#comment-1806572
I'll reproduce in full here so people don't have to link through, then link again:
Shanreagh:
Crown law nails all the fish hooks.
wow, I hadn't seen that Vote Compass OIA request before, thanks.
Max Rashbrooke makes us think again
https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131713265/max-rashbrooke-what-you-get-when-noone-is-focused-on-the-common-interest
I also attended one of those low decile schools, it has served me well throughout my whole life. Sure there were disadvantages…my year had a time when our teacher was away, he was an acknodleged maths/arithemetic teacher and our reefif teachers were really not fit for purpose. My whole class suffered with not having basic concepts taught. Not atlking times tables but maths etc as a way of seeing or interpreting the world. This could have happened anywhere though
The good thing though is that we did have other specialists such as the itinerant art teachers such as Sandy Adsett who would visit, we also had swimming coaches teaching swimming in our pool.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Adsett
https://pataka.org.nz/whats/exhibitions/sandy-adsett-toi-koru/
But even though the concept/reality of social mixing, schooling is full of benefits it is almost like the convention that co-ed schools are better for boys while single sex schools are better for girls….whose girl child is to be 'sacrificed' so boy children can be socialised.
Intractable really.
Were there, are there advantages for girls being in co-ed schools? I am dead certain the girls from our house who attended co-ed schools learned a lot more about people across the board and the way the world works by being at co-ed.
Which is standing them in good stead in their adult working lives.
Not educationally.
The single-sex approach seems to overwhelmingly result in better grades for girls.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/single-sex-over-co-ed-schools-girls-do-better-in-nearly-all-academic-measures-report/IFU4DDE5BXZU7TZGL6OJCEBYGY/
And, I'd argue, not in co-curricular activities.
In co-ed schools – the primary sports team (for example) is almost never the girl's one.
Increasingly, it seems likely that single-sex schools are better for boys, educationally, as well.
This is a slightly older article, but I don't think things will have changed.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/09/why-a-single-sex-education-could-be-best-for-boys.html
I can offer an anecdotal set of examples as well. My teen (15) goes to a single sex school – while local kids the same age (Mums are friends of mine) – go to co-ed schools. The amount of time, energy and stress that goes into romantic relationship building, crash, and recovery – is 10x greater in the co-ed sphere. And, that has to have an impact on learning.
Lest anyone be concerned, my teen participates in multiple out-of-school activities – which are co-educational – so – not devoid of experience in relating to the opposite sex.
Yes, kids from the co-ed educational background then go through that set of relationship dynamics later on; but by then their brains have had more time to rewire, and are better prepared to deal with the emotional fallout.
I don't think that Rashbrooke's (and your) experience in a low-decile school can be adequately translated into the experience today.
The problems facing today’s schools are orders of magnitude greater – with issues like foetal alcohol syndrome and meth babies, combined with mainstreaming of kids with learning and/or behavioural challenges, and the inability of schools to manage the safety of both pupils and staff (i.e. the MoE won't let the schools exclude dangerous or disruptive kids, and won't provide the staff required to manage them safely).
None of those were true when Rashbrooke was attending his low decile secondary school (notably, after attending a high-decile primary) – also, based on his age, his secondary was almost certainly streamed – as virtually all were at that time.
It's easy to point the finger (as the anonymous educator does in the article)
But has that educator actually addressed the stated concerns of the parents? If those concerns had been shown to be invalid (which they have not), then the educator's comment might be valid.
There is a reason why 'good' (as in high-performing) schools attract a premium price for the surrounding real-estate.
Of course I don't think the experiences cannot be strictly related but the benefits should not be minimised.
The school in my suburb was for years in the doldrums decile-wise until parents starting saying to themselves I actually value my suburb and the people there and there is no danger in my child going there. Berhampore from times gone by has been an intensely multi cultural place with all sort of people, religions etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berhampore,_New_Zealand
https://www.stats.govt.nz/tools/2018-census-place-summaries/berhampore
https://berhampore.school.nz/
Otherwise I agree with many of your points….I would far rather spend more money on the lower decile schools to make them into the treasures they could be, the same as I would hope that a great proportion of my health dollars are going into this community.
Eastern Porirua has a deprivation score of 10 (the highest) and decile 1 schools.
Work is being done
https://kaingaora.govt.nz/assets/Publications/OIAs-Official-Information-Requests/May-2020/Attachment-22-May-Porirua-Business-Case.pdf
A lot has changed since we went to school, starting with anything internet and electronic. Life has never been the same in the classroom.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/education/300847887/chatgpt-how-teachers-are-bringing-ai-tech-into-the-classroom
Tl;dr – Taibbi was wrong. About everything.
https://twitter.com/mehdirhasan/status/1644064242419617803
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a597e6Wv_xg&feature=youtu.be
And this is exactly what the rest of Hasan’s interview (and what I’ve described above) lays out in great detail: Taibbi isn’t just sloppy with facts, which is problematic enough. He leaves out the very important context that highlights how the big conspiracy he’s reporting is… not big, not a conspiracy, and not even remotely problematic.
He presents it as a massive censorship operation, targeting 22 million tweets, with takedown demands from government players, seeking to silence the American public. When you look through the details, correcting Taibbi’s many errors, and putting it in context, you see that it was an academic operation to study information flows, who sent the more blatant issues they came across to Twitter with no suggestion that they do anything about them, and the vast majority of which Twitter ignored. In some minority of cases, Twitter applied its own speech to add more context to some of the tweets, and in a very small number of cases, where it found phishing attempts or people impersonating election officials (clear terms of service violations, and potentially actual crimes), it removed them.
There remains no there there. It’s less than a Potemkin village. There isn’t even a façade. This is the Emperor’s New Clothes for a modern era. Taibbi is pointing to a naked emperor and insisting that he’s clothed in all sorts of royal finery, whereas anyone who actually looks at the emperor sees he’s naked.
https://www.techdirt.com/2023/04/07/mehdi-hasan-dismantles-the-entire-foundation-of-the-twitter-files-as-matt-taibbi-stumbles-to-defend-it/
Snobbery beyond the pale. Another solid piece by Max Rashbrooke.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131713265/max-rashbrooke-what-you-get-when-noone-is-focused-on-the-common-interest
Which soulless marketer dredged up the name “the Block”? It has connotations of dystopian gated communities with hidden TV crews poking through windows for the sake of ‘reality TV’.
It's not like the state is sitting on its hands in Porirua.
https://poriruadevelopment.co.nz/
Having been brought up myself in working class kindergarten, primary, intermediate and secondary schools, and a working class family, I'd observe that only a few kids I grew up with ever got out of that situation.
Not sure when our class mobility was ever high, but it's pretty low now.
We moved around a lot when I was young but during my primary school years, I lived and grew up in a new-build block in the middle of a small but very mixed community that was highly integrated. There was some initial friction because of loss of space (land) & views, as with almost all new developments in an already reasonably filled-in area. Although I was young, looking back I’d say the income range of the households would have quite big – it was a literal stepping-stone for many, including my parents after about 6 years, for moving up & away to posher areas. Those posh areas were more homogeneous and much less exciting & fun for a child growing up. My primary school was as mixed as the area I lived in but with a higher representation of lower/working-class children and it was great!
You could say that I’ve experienced class mobility (i.e. upwards) strapped in the backseat and at high speed. In other words, I don’t have a typical Kiwi experience and background as far as all this goes. I do note that NZ society is much more class-based than I’m used to and the number of snobs I’ve met over the years here are too many for my abacus.
The State can only do so much – details are decided by local authorities & developers.
At risk of replicating the Four Yorkshiremen Sketch, Max Rashbrooke ought to give a bit of credit for what the state has been up to in large scale urban planning since 2010.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue7wM0QC5LE
Kainga Ora together with Piritahi are underway with the largest civic masterplanned developments we've had since the mid 1970s: Hobsonville, Oranga, Mt Roskill, Mangere, Northcote, and more.
https://kaingaora.govt.nz/developments-and-programmes/industry-hub/piritahi-one-year-on/
Then of course there's the Christchurch rebuild in partnership with Christchurch Council and Kai Tahu and Fletcher Building, and all the other large scale planning in its satellite town centres.
And then the very smart developers who get the need for community building.
Max has a left melancholic propensity to moan about the bourgeoisie around him without lifting his eyes to the good.
To be fair to Max, there’s only so much he can cover in one opinion piece for Stuff. And I don’t consider him a ‘cry-baby’.
I don't see it that way. Porirua East is one of the single most deprived areas in the Wellington area. it is often at the wrong end of the scales for health, deprivation.
It suffers from white flight/income flight (if there is such a name where you have the money to either buy in the zone you want, or pay for a lawyer to argue a case why you don't go to this school) with its school. The Block is what some call it.
Max Rashbrooke went to what would be called a lower decile school as did I. neither of us have regrets, I am reading. I don't call that snobbish.
I don’t know what your “it” is. If you think I called Max Rashbrooke a snob then you have the wrong end of the stick.
Don’t be afraid to call a spade a spade instead of coming up with plausible explanations or excuses for status quo [anywhere] in NZ.
As for the name “Block”, I’ve lived in really unsavoury areas, and ghetto blocks or prison blocks are not associations that I want to have when I receive my mail. I have also lived in ‘sub-urbia’ and I’m glad that those days are over too. Town planners in other countries seem have different philosophies and not all of those are strictly country-specific. Obviously, my views are a personal thing.
More a kind of reverse snobbery.
If parents have the capacity to do so, why should they not be free to invest and form their own private school indeed their own private world of self-reinforcing wealth and privilege?
Inside the answer to that question is a big upcoming election debate on education and implied class mobility.
And, indeed, a chunk of them do.
Others use the value of their home ($500K difference between the street in the Grammar zone and the one outside, for the same house) as a proxy.
I've heard the ACT party on education vouchers. Do you see this coming up as an election issue for other parties as well?
In a past life, I worked in the Buildings Division of the Education Department in Auckland. The chap who sat at the desk behind me did all the number crunching for school zoning. When he was not in, I had to answer his phone. (No voicemail in those days).
I had a shedload of fun while working my notice telling stories to people who rang to enquire as to where the Grammar zone was likely to be when their "Little Lord Fauntleroy" hit the magic age.
I told one woman she should buy the house next to Hillary College in Otara as by the time her lad got to secondary school, they would probably be bussing them in like in Alabama.
Sure, they could also home-school their kids, hire private tutors, and vote for ACT and Partnership Schools. Or they could support the Public Good of public schools in the area, which is what their taxes provides for. Unless that’s not good enough …
Forget about class mobility for a moment and let’s focus on being able to have a dignified job that supports a dignified life – the grass in the other class is not greener despite the scattering of daisies in spring.
For what its worth, the Labour Party UK would lock that child molester up in prison with females.
For what its worth, under the Labour Government (Ardern/Hipkins) in NZ a four time rapist got 9 month home D and if that person would have identified as a women they would have she/her them and the victims would have to refer to their rapist as a ‘she/her’ and that they were raped by ‘her penis’.
And for what its worth, this year we locked an entire male into a womens prison for a few years. His crime? Going into a restaurant in Jan/Feb last year, stabbing his ex girlfriend and two others.
The Soup throwing person would also be declared a ‘woman’, their crime would be counted as female on female violence and should they be considered guilty and should any judge in NZ have the guts to actually serve this person with time, they would do time in a female prison.
So frankly when it comes to crime, sexual assault neither Labour UK nor Labour NZ are acting decently.
Keir Starmer no more can define what a women is, even though Keir Starmer is certain that some have dicks.
[TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
A single charge of common assault and you’re already pre-empting the verdict and sentence!? Wow! Where did you study Law? I hope the Judge will be a woman, as this will remove at least one prejudice from suspicious minds. Or maybe not.
Recently, Socratic thinking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_questioning) and the Socratic method (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method) have cropped up a few times here on TS. It was associated with a misconception based on the assumption that the questioner (aka ‘teacher’, who happened to be a real teacher in real life) possessed knowledge & answers but assumed a veil of ignorance. In other words, the questioner was not debating in good faith here.
I believe that assumption to be incorrect. Socratic questioning can be used in debate to tease out beliefs, biases, knowledge gaps, et cetera, in both questioner and the person(s) being questioned (aka ‘student’). The aim is to arrive at a discernible truth that both parties (can) agree to and build on.
This method of questioning was made popular, for example, by Michael Sandel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Sandel#Teaching) in his excellent series Justice: What's the Right Thing to Do?
So, I reject the accusations and criticism that were aimed at the questioner here on TS on these grounds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method#Method
Socrates obviously was a smart cookie but more so, he was wise – his long beard gave it away
whatever Robert was trying to tease out, it would have worked way better to have stated it up front. I don't know what he was trying to do, because he wouldn't say.
if the idea is to "arrive at a discernible truth that both parties (can) agree to and build on", it patently failed here.
I'm not stupid, and can usually grasp concepts that I disagree with or haven't come across before. But there are limits to that when ideas are presented obliquely. Being patronised elsewhere that I can't see the bigger picture hasn't helped my impression that it just boiled down to not understanding what the gender critical feminist position is but still deciding it is wrong anyway.
This debate isn't going to go away. Having watched this play out in other countries that are years further down the track than we are, once women (and the public generally) find out what is going on many women get angry, very angry, at having their rights removed without being consulted. You can see Anker's comments above for an example of how women just stop caring at some point about trans people and put their energy into looking after their own rights. This arises from No Debate, and it just gets worse the longer No Debate is pushed. It's terrible, and the worst thing that could be happening at this point in time, and the left is ignoring those of us that are ringing the warning bell.
let me put it another way. For many women this isn't an issue of philosophical difference that can be teased out or where women can be taught to think properly. And this fact is being missed by many.
Please don’t be misled by the reference to Socrates, which was not introduced into this debate by me, BTW. I think it was mis-labelled (or mis-appropriated) and then used to dismiss Robert’s comments.
This about applying critical thinking tools to debate of a complex issue. Debating is what we do here on TS. The better the tools and skills of the participants, the better the debate. So far, it has not been a very good debate, IMO, also judging by the outcomes.
The topic of debate is very real and has real-life impact. I don’t think that anybody is denying this!
Yes, you've been saying that but you haven't actually explained what that means. How is it not a good debate? What are the outcomes that make that so?
I have followed these dicussions and have learnt a fair bit.
eg The process of the rewrite of the BDMRR Bill and then the Green changes occuring post select committee to include gender self ID .
The range of those in the self ID community. From young teens and pre teens dicovering their identity/sexuality and autogynephylia in middle aged men through to the furries,
The reinfircement of the observation that the left looks for traitors, the right looks for recruits. Also it has strengthened my resolve to be wary of ideologies/ideologues. Very little in life is so simple.
TBH, I was a tad sceptical about the GCF position, there was a whiff of misandry about it – 'penis is bad', the GCF views appeared to be coming from an older, conservative (status quo conservative not right wing conservative) voice and initially, the horror stories were all coming from overseas.
Through following the korero here on TS the scepticism has abated. Yes, a warranted wariness of males exists, the conservativeness is akin to my own and now the horrible part of 'the struggle' is here. Witness Albert Park; the assault of a senior citizen that largely goes unacknowledged or gets the 'once-over lightly' in MSM. eg RNZ's media watch.
It is possible to hold a position where women's access to safe spaces is acknowledged and upheld while still maintaining a trans individual's mana. So far, this has been expressed largely by the GC side of the debate.
Another aspect that I have come to understand in this time is; Your rights are my responsibility.
Weka, I agree with this totally.
I don’t think Robert knew exactly what he was trying to tease out either. He was asking questions and others started to distrust his line of questioning, or became tired and frustrated because of his persistence and/or the fact that they didn’t seem to get their intended/desired traction with him, and accused him of assuming a veil of ignorance (Socratic questioning) and trolling. When he denied this, there was more disbelief and condemnation. And so on and so forth.
I don’t follow your comment about not being stupid and being patronised!?
You are 100% right that this is not going to go away. I don’t understand why others (“stealth”) and you’re saying that there was no consultation when there clearly was, as far as I can tell. I do understand that there’s anger and it is pretty obvious that there’s a lot of it, which is not a good foundation for debate of a difficult topic.
I don’t think that even the TS commentariat is representative of ‘the Left’. I’ve raised this in another comment: if No Debate is an or the issue why then is the debate here so narrow and bordering on being exclusive of diverging let alone contrarian opinions? Even questioning is met with unfair scrutiny and scepticism if not contempt and distrust that induces an experience of gatekeepers testing everyone who wants to participate and the ones that don’t are told “Thou Shall Not Pass!”. You cannot have it both ways – the kaupapa of TS is robust inclusive debate and this is not what I’ve been observing.
When I asked Robert repeatedly to explain his thinking, he didn't. When I said I saw no evidence that he understands GCF positions, he said he does. When I asked him to demonstrate this, he refused. I can totally see why some people started to think he was trolling. The debate techniques he was using, intentionally or not, were almost impossible to work with.
Robert said some patronising things that are in the Trash.
I'm not saying there was no consultation. Maybe others are using inaccurate language? But there was the point in time when MPs tried to get changes to a Bill in a surreptitious way. And later when the consultations were under way, MPs were rude and obnoxious even to people submitting. This is a big part of distrust of government process for NZ GC people I think.
Women are angry and that's reasonable given the situation. People arguing from anger isn't new here either. The foundation of the debate is women's rights and the injustice of what is happening. Most of the time I see commenters making arguments despite the anger. It's not like they're here slagging people off (mostly).
Can you please point to come examples? The only people here who can stop others from speaking are you and me and other mods.
How is debate narrow? How is it bording on being exclusive? Do you mean the number of replies to RG's comments? Or what?
Even if what you say is true, that there are people gatekeeping (not sure how that is being done), what's the problem? No-one is obliged to respond to anyone and there are plenty of other people to talk with.
I'm not sure if you understand what No Debate is. No Debate in a TS context would be Lynn and micky succumbing to the external pressures to not have GC debate here and shutting me down. Or the revers No Debate would be all anti-terfers, pro-trans and even question people being banned because of their beliefs.
My son kept asking my daughter, "why?" over and over and over. It was driving her crazy!
I said "son, stop socrates-ing your sister!"
They actually both seemed to like this one so im not sure it still qualifies as a Dad joke
(ps not my joke )
Given that Michael Sandel is acting in a formal teaching role in your example – it still seems to be a methodology which works most effectively in teaching rather than in debate.
Teaching and debating both involve learning and gaining understanding and this is the key point of my example that connects the two. Of course, if you think debate is a point-scoring competition with a clear winner and a deflected loser then you might have a point.
I'm a more utilitarian type of person. I hate becoming caught up in subjective abstracts when looking for practical answers. Ironically, most of the learning methods I use, created by educator, Win Wenger, have the Socrates method ( and feedback) as their base. However, he has created new methods that are superior to the former in my opinion.
http://www.winwenger.com/socrates.htm
http://www.winwenger.com/einsoc.htm
Excellent! You feel right at home here then on a progressive political blogsite that aims for high-quality robust debate of anything related to and ranging from political ideology to realpolitik.
Yet on my twitter feed about a bearded man coming up with an anti female pronouncement written on a T shirt we have this response
But I couldn't possibly comment.
[1 day ban for continual posting of quotes without links. Please reply to my mod note comment below with the link, when you return – weka]
Also, in the context of the debate – to ascribe wisdom as coming from a bloke with a beard (no matter how much it's intended as a joke)….. rather jars.
don't think Incognito is on twitter and probably doesn't appreciate the beard meme.
I’m not on Twitter, never have been, never will.
It is a sad state of affairs when commenters here pretend to take part in robust debate take umbrage with my innocent little reference to Robert’s beard, which BTW, has been mentioned and referenced here before without raising any ‘jarring’. It is almost as if some people are waiting (and wanting?) to feel ‘offended’, which might help explain the sudden (?) meteoric rise in popularity of men such as Sean ‘Ungrateful Hua’ Plunket and his ilk.
For those who don’t appreciate my ‘meme’, e.g., because they don’t read every comment here on TS, if you click on the link in this comment of mine 6 days ago (https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-03-04-2023/#comment-1943483) you’ll see a photo of the bearded man himself in his natural habitat. [for extra convenience: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/131677146/environment-southland-commits-to-reducing-emissions-to-netzero-by-2050%5D
Kia kaha, Robert!
mod note.
When I mentioned the beard, I had Robert in mind [obviously]. It was meant as a joke.
Weka, The moderation is acknowledged.
I had a complete techno meltdown yesterday with my keyboard resorting to a mix of letters & figures and my phone not keeping the charge. New keyboard makes all the difference.
References are from
Incognito
8 April 2023 at 3:18 pm
God Zilla
9:39 PM · Apr 9, 2023
To be honest one of the reasons I did not link was because God Zilla was replying to horrible 'Terf' type anti women stuff. But I guess we are all old enough to be able to deal with this anti women stuff.
I support this from Belladonna
8 April 2023 at 5:11 pm
But then years ago I did not get some of the 'humour.' Many feminists had 'no sense of humour' apparently.
Hope that this is OK.
thanks for the links.
This says to me that you still think you get a choice about when to link and when not to. If you quote you have to link. Every time. I've told you this before.
If you don't want to link, then don't quote.
If you link to something you find problematic, you can explain your thinking on that in your comment so that people know.
OK I will do – explain my reservations about the content of the posts that led to the reply I quote if it happens again.
Thank you Weka. I will link fully and explain my concerns about material that may emerge if links behind are clicked.
Some people here could do with some deep-breathing techniques to loosen up. Or they could realise that context often makes all the difference and that people have different experiences and knowledge that gives them their unique personal context.
I’m not going to quote Nietzsche again though – once is enough today and it is already losing its meaning and impact here on TS.
Sorry I don't understand what you are trying to say. All I was doing was to say that for long time feminists we are often accused of having no sense of humour, so yes I do agree with Belladonna.
I did not want to link to anti women stuff (if a person clicked to the posts that led to God Zilla posting),
I have accepted the moderation, will link fully and will express my concerns at the time of linking in future.
I made a mistake in not linking, can we just leave it please…..please.
Feel free to not respond to this comment from me Shanreagh.
One of the problems I see atm (for the mods to sort out) is that it's become more unclear when a comment is from a moderator and when it is from one of us without our mod hat on. In this case, I think you could just have ignored Incognito's comment if you've had enough, but mine needed a response and I can see that it's hard to tell. I've already been thinking about this a bit, there are time when it's better not to use bold in-comment notes. I've seen this confusion in the past too.
??
No Mod hat anywhere in sight as far as I was concerned, so I have no idea why or how there could or would be any confusion about it.
For a number of reasons, one of which is to stay more impartial, I have not jumped into (recent) debates. However, the recent banning of a regular and highly respected commenter compelled me to start commenting on the ways discourse has been suffering badly here on TS, in my opinion. This has almost (!) nothing to do with Moderation per se, IMO, as I’ve already stated previously – explaining indeed starts to feel like losing.
And for what it is worth, be assured I am very aware of how difficult it can be to tread the path of impartiality. And especially to be seen to be doing so. When I said elsewhere that I have no desire to tangle with moderation, it is with this in mind, that I truly have no desire to make your task any harder than it already is.
In my mind it is usually better to step back from confrontation, than to persist to prove a point for little gain. I imagine all of us have made the error of failing to draw a distinction between our ego's and our opinions at one time or another.
Accepted and appreciated!
In Election Year, we want to avoid any extra work for the Mods and certainly no ‘tangles’ with the Mods (which is begging for self-martyrdom at the best of times, as per the site’s Policy, as you know).
At this point, I’d like to ask you, please refrain from making subtle or not-so–subtle digs at any (!) Moderation that disrespect and undermine any (!) of the Mods’ hard work and well-intended efforts.
Thank you in advance,
Incognito
I thought I'd said what I thought the problem was. I use comments for moderation at times (instead of putting mod notes in bold inside someone else's comment). I've been thinking lately that people are getting confused as to when I (or you) comment, whether it's a mod note or not.
If people are confused about my moderation tech, they may be thinking that it applies to yours as well.
Whilst you may have point, generally speaking, I still don’t see how it applies to this specific case and why you brought it up here. Never mind, I want to let this go and move on.
Besides being less involved in the various discussion threads I’ve adapted a few other ways of modding to improve clarity, such as:
Mod note cont.: (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-07-04-2023/#comment-1944252) or [Consider this a Mod note] (https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-21-12-2022/#comment-1927691) at the beginning of my longer responses wearing my Mod hat but avoiding the bold font and all that other usual Mod stuff.
I fully expect commenters to read replies to their comments and take note, especially if they clearly come from a Mod who’s been modding them. I’ve wasted too much time chasing up offenders who play blind and shtum and follow-up with quick(er) action nowadays.
If you have a specific problem with how I moderated RG (other than banning a long term, respected commenter), I really wish you would say clearly what the problem is. You may well be seeing things I have missed. From my perspective he was moderated because he is one of the commenters who believe he is somehow exempt from the rules and mod requests. That was pretty clear.
If the issue is how he ended up in that position, all I can say is I don't think his disrespect for moderation is new or specific to the G/S wars, it's just that he's not really been that deep into the hard core debates before and so it hasn't shown up as much. He's not unusual in his position, there are others who likewise thing moderation can be ignored, and they usually end up with a ban after requests and warnings as well 🤷♀️
I hope when he comes back that 1) he pays attention to moderation and respects it, and 2) he changes his debate style and starts sharing his thinking. I would actually like to hear that.
If I have a specific problem with your specific moderation of RG, I will discuss this with you in the back-end.
FWIW, RG was worn down by the relentless pile-on from a small gang of commenters, wave after wave, comment after comment, and he had reached the end of the road, for him. That was pretty clear and he said as much in his defence; his idiosyncratic persistence (aka ‘stroppiness’), which is generally a positive trait, pushed him off the reserve. It is not the end of the world for RG, I’d imagine, but some of the culpability was not his to own. IMO.
You seem to cycle back to moderation being the issue for me, which is inaccurate, as I’ve already stated quite a few times (I’ve lost count now).
As to what the problems are in and with the commentariat, I’ve touched upon and highlighted already many issues, as I see them, and working my way through them. It is an ongoing process for me too, not unlike the process that RG was going through, ironically. My thoughts & views are scattered over many comments now, which might not help to get a clear succinct picture, especially when it means reading all those comments over a few days and stitching all the info together. I do realise that!
I reiterate that respect for moderation here on TS is paramount.
It would be preferable if everybody would pay a little more attention to clarity, accuracy, unambiguity, etc., in/of their comments and less effort on responding as often and quickly (aka ‘slow down’) as possible and/or trying to score ‘debating points’. However, I believe we do have to respect people’s individual (idiosyncratic) styles and ways of learning and debating, et cetera. But most of all, we ought to be able to assume that people here come in good faith and are genuinely interested in robust debate. I believe this assumption has become less certain in recent times and been invalidated by a few, be it unwittingly or not so much …
Thank you for all this information Incognito.
The experience I have had with Socratic questioning was in my law studies (over 4 years) and in with one CE in particular who used it to 'drill down' to the essential message from skilled and knowledgeable people.
So these were two examples where the questioner had a position of more knowledge. While often the questions were rapid fire and made you think on your feet I only ever had the view that the questioner was seeking to impart knowledge (firstly) & gain knowledge (secondly – as we can always learn from others)
I have not seen it used from a position of ignorance ie to gain knowledge but accept from your data that it can be used for that.
The kind of questioning used by people who do not know and who are information seeking is usually (from my experience) much more tentative and has a framing around it.
The rapid fire technique with the lack of opinion, framing or knowledge sharing made me suspect 'tone' perhaps that the questioner had a viewpoint but was not sharing this. I then 'leapt in logic' (based on my experience) that he had more knowledge/opinion than he was giving out.
There are many articles on asking good questions.
This is a simple one.
https://hrdailyadvisor.blr.com/2015/03/30/asking-the-right-questions-is-key-to-finding-the-right-answers/
Perhaps I was incorrect to ascribe Socratic to it, it was my experience of Socratic (it was called Socratic) and is used, or used to be, in some Law schools. I think I did put some refs, I know I looked it up but probably slanted to a legal use.
Whatever the type of question it was, they were in my view, unsuccessful. It almost felt that they had turned into leading or trick questions designed to catch out the unwary.
Thanks. The backgrounds of commenters here are widely different, of course. I think there was definitely an element of Socratic questioning in Robert’s comments, perhaps unwittingly, but your assumption of his baseline knowledge was a little off. It was a petty, actually a real shame, that you didn’t accept his word that he was genuine and commenting with honesty and respect.
Your very last sentence phrased it perfectly: it had become a battle of wits & wills to trip (up) the opponent into a ‘gotcha!’ moment and claim (moral?) victory. This belongs in the realm of Social Media and Talkback shock-jocks, not on a site that aims for robust political debate, IMO.
For a look at a local transport company making changes without regulatory encouragement, a good article from NZ Trucking:
Switch: On https://www.nztrucking.co.nz/switch-on/
(The four Quick reads from Test links are also worth the read to add further detail to an already informative article).
NZ Trucking YouTube link here (which I haven't seen but add for those who prefer videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1RpietQHr8
Big things happening over the ditch.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9eYLtPSf7PY&feature=youtu.be
https://www.januselectric.com.au
https://www.stuff.co.nz/taranaki-daily-news/news/300832635/taranaki-hydrogen-developer-warns-nz-risks-falling-behind-in-green-fuel-projects
Good article. Interesting that both applications (cotton and urea production) are considered to be significantly environmentally harmful in other ways, mainly to do with water use and contamination.
How we balance environmental priorities is a discussion that should be taking place.
I would hope the criteria for government grants should consider more than energy use and type.
I listened to this podcast from Sam Harris, my partner subscribes so I was able to listen to the whole thing. Excellent breakdown of language around gender, the two extremes of the trans debate going up against each other with no ground for the middle, many unable to express their thoughts and concerns etc, politics and much more. I haven’t listened to ‘The Witch Trials of JK Rowling’ yet but intend to.
https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/314-the-cancellation-of-j-k-rowling
the witch trials podcast is excellent. It's quite balanced, although obviously it's not taking the JKR is a naziterf position, which is pissing off some of the anti-terfs. But it’s probably a good thing to listen to for people that don’t really understand the situation. I also learned some stuff about social media and its role in the whole thing.
A particularly good (and imo sensible) interview on RNZ this evening with a spokesperson for the Fa'afafine community …unfortunately I have no direct link but it may possibly be found within the following…
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/tagata
@ 19:25
https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018885152
Thanks
https://www.rnz.co.nz/audio/player?audio_id=2018885384
Agreed, refreshing.
This may be useful – about the Yogyakarta Principles and how they ignored the rights of women.
"The Principles were drafted and signed by a group of lawyers, human rights experts and trans rights activists, including Robert Wintemute, professor of human rights law at King’s College London. Since then Wintemute has had second thoughts. He says women’s rights were not considered during the meeting and that he should have challenged some aspects of the Principles. Admitting he “failed to consider” that trans women still in possession of their male genitals would seek to access female-only spaces, Wintemute, who is gay, says: “A key factor in my change of opinion has been listening to women.”
The Principles merge lesbian and gay rights with the right to protection and expression of “gender identity”. They provide a foundation for the view that “gender identity” — based on the feelings of an individual — trumps biological sex."
https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/april-2021/the-trans-rights-that-trump-all/?fbclid=IwAR1-sPvx5yZjSJtdcic-nQ_Q5JsHKV37dP-mML-PUz63ukMaJAMTDjHfpuc
Visubversa
I had no idea.
Having worked all those long years in the PS & being involved in the drafting and maintenance of Conflict of Interest registers I find it unbelievable that a person who is a signatory to these Yogyakarta Principles has not recused himself from involvement in the trans & women discussions.
To say that my world view has been a little shattered would be an understatement.
It is so concerning as I understand that the safe spaces regime is part of the Human Rights Act & Paul Hunt and his staff are the ones who will look at concerns around access to safe spaces. I was always of the view that the safe spaces regime in NZ was eminently challengeable by the trans lobby, made more difficult perhaps by having an insider. Perhaps he will recuse himself from dealing with this?
Seriously though, how was/is it possible to be appointed to such a post with being a signatory to something such as these principles.
Here is guidance on how the HR Commissioner is appointed.
https://www.justice.govt.nz/assets/Guidance-for-the-appointment-of-Human-Rights-Commissioners.pdf
Here are the current Commissioners. They were appointed in 2019. So if appointed for 5 years the terms will expire in 2024.
https://tikatangata.org.nz/about-us/our-people
Announced 2018
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/new-appointments-human-rights-commission