Open mike 08/05/2023

94 comments on “Open mike 08/05/2023 ”

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1. Stuart Munro 1

   8 May 2023 at 7:40 am

   The Finns can do it – and it saves money – so, let us hear no more neoliberal excuses.

   How Finland Found A Solution To Homelessness – YouTube
   • mikesh 1.1

     8 May 2023 at 8:55 am

     Apparently, in Finland, a lot of the land is state owned; perhaps we should nationalize a lot of land in NZ. Also, the implementation of such policies takes many years, suggesting that a bi-partisan political approach would be needed.
     • Stuart Munro 1.1.1

       8 May 2023 at 9:37 am

       A bi-partisan approach would require a reawakening of social responsibility among the Gnats – this is not to be expected while covert neoliberals remain within Labour, poisoning the well.
       • tc 1.1.1.1

         8 May 2023 at 9:59 am

         True that.

         Nationals political treatment of education, health and infrastructure rather than just fund it as population dictates puts us where we are.

         Key and blinglish did a lot of damage by not continuing to build and spend. Playing politics with kids futures, kiwis health, RONS and a general hatred of public transport etc.

         Interesting times.
         • Patricia Bremner 1.1.1.1.1

           8 May 2023 at 1:57 pm

           100% tc.
       • Ad 1.1.1.2

         8 May 2023 at 1:11 pm

         National-Labour unity has been done before on multiple major legislative proposals, including this term and previous term.

         No reason it couldn't happen, none at all.
         • Stuart Munro 1.1.1.2.1

           8 May 2023 at 1:28 pm

           Sure, all things are possible in Heaven and earth.

           But little good will come of Labour, and none whatsoever of the current Gnats.

           NZ needs something a bit more progressive and forward-looking than Brownlean motion.
           • Ad 1.1.1.2.1.1

             8 May 2023 at 2:55 pm

             Housing Supply Bill December 2021, both sides of House voted support.

             https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/bill-boost-housing-supply-passes

             Emissions Trading Reform Bill May 2022, both sides of the house voted support.

             https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300583605/climate-change-national-endorses-governments-carbon-budgets-act-opposes

             Both were groundbreaking legislation. Just takes dogged officials and skilled politicians.
             • Stuart Munro …

               8 May 2023 at 3:06 pm

               Emmissions trading of course, is a fraud – greenwashing inaction. Tesla might look on paper like a greenish enterprise, but every carbon credit they earn offsets carbon production elsewhere. The net result of all the subsidies is nothing.

               And where are the commensurate outcomes? Lord knows they collaborated on the creation of the housing crisis for long enough.

               What do we have to do to get it through their thick skulls that they are paid to take the country forward, not chase their personal rainbows or line their pockets.

               We are a nation of sheep led by goats and monkeys.
     • alwyn 1.1.2

       8 May 2023 at 10:26 am

       We currently have about 30% of New Zealand land owned by the State.

       Just how much more would you think was necessary to accomplish your aims?

       Ihumatao land was supposed to be used for housing. Protestors occupied it of course and that stopped anything happening at the time. Have things changed or is the land still bare?
       • Belladonna 1.1.2.1

         8 May 2023 at 11:06 am

         Apparently it may take another 5 years to have any sort of outcome

         https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/ihumatao-group-appointed-soon-but-decision-on-lands-future-could-take-five-years/A4J4V336BZ7VCGZGRG6E7QY4WM/
       • Stuart Munro 1.1.2.2

         8 May 2023 at 11:23 am

         Well, at a guess, the same amount we had before Roger Douglas's great leap backward set us on the path to poverty, ignorance, and entrenched political corruption.

         The last is the kicker. The current government spent $50 million not building a cycle bridge – Sochi-level corruption – yet no-one has been incarcerated for it. I imagine National colludes because their own corruption in the Christchurch rebuild will not bear scrutiny.
       • RedLogix 1.1.2.3

         8 May 2023 at 12:05 pm

         We currently have about 30% of New Zealand land owned by the State.

         A very large chunk of that will be the Conservation Estate – generally not suitable for housing at all.
         • mikesh 1.1.2.3.1

           8 May 2023 at 2:04 pm

           If we want to emulate Finland we would need to locate the necessary housing in towns and cities.
           • alwyn 1.1.2.3.1.1

             8 May 2023 at 2:27 pm

             I am not greatly interested in this topic but it appears that there is a great deal of publicly owned land within the Auckland area.

             If this linked story is accurate there are 93,500 ha of publicly owned land and of that 41,500 ha is publicly owned open space.

             The larger figure is described as "That doesn't include roads, railway lines or waterways. It does include schools, hospitals, parks, Housing New Zealand holdings and community halls used traditionally by groups who often don't realise they don't own the land they meet on"

             The smaller amount is described as being open space though and there must surely be a reasonable amount that could be used for housing.

             https://www.newsroom.co.nz/auckland-mapped-every-pocket-of-public-land-now-identified#:~:text=The%20Crown%20owns%2027%20percent,local%20government%20owns%2040%20percent.
           • RedLogix 1.1.2.3.1.2

             8 May 2023 at 2:30 pm

             Any time I have encountered Finnish people in my working life, I've been impressed. Well educated, pragmatic people who get shit done.

             There is a lot to like about this pathway to address homelessness. But then again NZ has some distinct aspects that we'd need to consider. One is that our building industry struggles with cost, the other is that if you live in Australia you can see plenty of good examples of housing densification that NZ could do a lot more of.

             The other element of concern would be how to manage the impact of gangs and criminality infiltrating these units.
         • Belladonna 1.1.2.3.2

           8 May 2023 at 4:02 pm

           It looks as though a large chunk of the government-owned land in Finland is also conservation estate – so probably comparable to NZ.

           https://www.metsa.fi/en/lands-and-waters/state-owned-areas/

           It appears as though their Ministry of housing, directly subsidises the building of rental housing. Which is definitely an interesting approach (though probably anathema to those lefties who think that private enterprise has no place in housing)

           The state supports the production of affordable and social rented housing by paying interest subsidies on loans taken out for this purpose and issuing a state guarantee for them. These loans, known as long-term interest-subsidy loans, generally have a loan period of 40 years. During this time, tenants must be selected on social grounds and the rent must be determined based on the cost price principle.

           https://ym.fi/en/rented-housing
           • RedLogix 1.1.2.3.2.1

             8 May 2023 at 4:17 pm

             Yes – when we first started building to rent 20+ years ago we approached the then HNZ in Porirua for some guidance, because according to their website at the time there was some sort of similar pathway available. I forget the exact details, but it offered a guaranteed contract for a minimum of 10 years. The incentive was that HNZ would not only offer market rent, no management fee, full maintenance and a renovation package back to original standard on handing back to the owner.

             Given we were also build to a Universal Access standard, the person we spoke to was initially very encouraging, but for reasons that have slipped off into the mists of memory, we never finished up pursuing it. I got the impression they were either not quite ready – or there was no reality behind it. I could be wrong.

             Or maybe we did not quite fit their desired profile; but my point is that someone did a bunch of work on this already in NZ. Not sure what became of it.
     • Binders full of women 1.1.3

       8 May 2023 at 5:09 pm

       Approx 1/3 of New Zealand is State owned. Approx 8 million hectares.
2. weka 2

   8 May 2023 at 10:31 am

   this is fascinating. A tiktoker says her Irish family say the English ate her ancestors, and she thinks it's probably literally true.

   https://twitter.com/hatpinwoman/status/1655194238890520576

   One of the replies,

   This is an example of what we mean in psychiatry when we differentiate between a delusional and culturally entrenched belief that would otherwise be delusional. This seems to be borne out of the culture where kids are having to come up with more outrageous grievances for likes.

   https://twitter.com/lascapigliata8/status/1655218862114086915

   Is the internet/social media creating belief based social constructs that are akin to religion except they are created very fast and there are many, many of them.

   I'll add that I think there are religious people who are rational and know how to use google to fact check things, and there are religious people who hold some out there beliefs and don't seem to be able to tell the difference between metaphor and literality.
   • Heather Grimwood 2.1

     8 May 2023 at 11:12 am

     To Weka at 2 : Agree with your observation that some cannot differentiate between metaphor and literality, and have long thought this fact predominates in contemporary global problems, emphasising the need for education that includes e.g. critical thinking and world history rather than patriotic.
     • weka 2.1.1

       8 May 2023 at 1:09 pm

       the critical thinking part is really hard to address, because. you need to have some degree of critical thinking to understand where the limits on your critical thinking are. I agree education would make the difference. Not sure how that could be done. Government probably can't touch it directly, maybe NGOs?
       • Heather Grimwood 2.1.1.1

         8 May 2023 at 3:39 pm

         to weka at 2.1.1 : I was envisaging an ideal world scene with optimal universal access to education. Dreams don't cost and if the huge global wealth presently squandered in war games was diverted to providing higher human needs (education being specific to this column), wonders could be achieved .
         • weka 2.1.1.1.1

           8 May 2023 at 4:37 pm

           integrating into the education system shouldn't be that hard if the will was there. I was thinking more about those outside of the education system and how to reach them.
   • joe90 2.2

     8 May 2023 at 12:01 pm

     More allegoric, representing through fiction, than metaphoric, comparing unrelated things. One person's inability to differentiate doesn't alter the truth of the allegory.
     • weka 2.2.1

       8 May 2023 at 12:24 pm

       thanks, yes allegoric is better.

       I wish it were one person's inability instead of whole swathes of people. The English obviously did eat the Irish, just not in the way she meant. Truth among humans relies heavily on being able to parse and communicate historical reality. Even allowing for different interpretations there are still facts and some ways of relating to them are better than others.
       • joe90 2.2.1.1

         8 May 2023 at 12:46 pm

         whole swathes of people.

         Indeed. The inability to identify allegory is quite something.
         • weka 2.2.1.1.1

           8 May 2023 at 12:48 pm

           lol, nice one.
     • Heather Grimwood 2.2.2

       8 May 2023 at 12:39 pm

       To joe90 at 2.2 : agree
3. joe90 3

   8 May 2023 at 1:05 pm

   Our tūī have arrived. They're three weeks late so I've not begun a count, but they're here, and they're warbling up a storm.

   btw, I thought the welcome swallows had buggered off after their chicks fledged but they've decided to use the back porch as a winter roosting spot.

   Thanks for the guano, guys.
   • AB 3.1

     8 May 2023 at 2:47 pm

     The swallows will probably keep coming back and won't be persuaded to leave. Our carport has been guano city for a few years. The upside is going into the garage at night and seeing 3-4 newly fledged swallows fast asleep and perched on the ledge just above my head. Nothing seems to disturb them – flashing lights, banging doors or rubbish bin lids clattering.
   • RedLogix 3.2

     8 May 2023 at 3:41 pm

     I'm going to do a shameless topping on that!

     From my desk, as I type, pink and grey galahs lined up on a branch, black cockatoos hooning about, a couple of pelicans crusing, a mass of black sheerwaters fishing, and a pair of rainbow lorikeets feeding their fledglings.
4. Anker 4

   8 May 2023 at 1:48 pm

   https://www.speakupforwomen.nz/post/responses-to-media-questions

   for anyone interested in knowing what Speak up for Women are all about (especially with the latest attempt by Stuff and the disinformation project to associate them with Alt right, Nazis etc, this is well worth a read.

   It is extremely well written and very clear about where SUFW stand
   • Shanreagh 4.1

     8 May 2023 at 2:49 pm

     yes but I suspect it will not be read/understood by the trans 'masses'…too well written, calm knowledgeable and nuanced. However good resource for others to have.

     Aftern the unbalanced, once over lightly effort by Stuff on 6/5 I have decided to forego my sub to The Post.

     I suddenly thought on Saturday 'this is not difficult' ie to get balance, write a balanced story and I fail to see why I should actually pay for dis/misinformation. I had already made the move to getting Saturday's edition only as it has had less of a tabloid feel than during the week. I have had a continuous sub to both Wellington dailies since October 1973, latterly just Saturdays.

     Vive la change!
     • Anker 4.1.1

       8 May 2023 at 6:15 pm

       Good on you Shanreagh. Are you going to let them know?
       • Shanreagh 4.1.1.1

         8 May 2023 at 6:53 pm

         Oh yes!
         • Anker 4.1.1.1.1

           8 May 2023 at 6:59 pm

           Brilliant. Way to go Shanreagh!
   • francesca 4.2

     8 May 2023 at 3:27 pm

     Thanks Anker

     How anyone could characterise that eminently sensible and considered response as hate speech and an attempt to erase transpeople is unfathomable

     Utterly ridiculous
     • Visubversa 4.2.1

       8 May 2023 at 3:33 pm

       It is known as "transperbole" and there is a lot of it about. Any failure to afford them the "validation" they desire is seen as an attack on their "right to exist".

       For a local example – see this one.

       
       • weka 4.2.1.1

         8 May 2023 at 4:41 pm

         It is known as "transperbole" and there is a lot of it about. Any failure to afford them the "validation" they desire is seen as an attack on their "right to exist".

         kind of supports their point. If you are talking about trans people as a class all wanting validation and seeing failure in that as an attack on their right to exist, it comes across as bigoted, thus never speaking up for the humanity of trans people.
         • Anker 4.2.1.1.1

           8 May 2023 at 6:11 pm

           Well yes and no Weka.

           I don't think it is a failure to want validation at all. But it seems for some trans people unless you actively validate their gender identity (think pro nouns, affirming any stereotypical female behaviour the trans women has engaged with and even endorsing their belief that they are a woman) they feel that you are intent on annihilating them and wish for them not to exist. IMO such an extreme need to external validation is unhealthy as it is in anyone who needs constant validation and is unable to tolerate it if they don't get it. By this I mean any non trans person who requires such an extreme amount of validation.

           BTW when I say unhealthy it isn't meant as a judgement. Maybe a better word would be extremely unhelpful.

           I am sure not all trans people want such a high degree of validation. I think SUFW make that point i.e that some trans people.
         • Visubversa 4.2.1.1.2

           8 May 2023 at 7:38 pm

           Humanity goes both ways. If trans people were concerned about the humanity of women and/or the humanity of lesbians they would not be demanding that they be admitted to all our services and spaces – literally and figuratively.

           I have known trans people for decades and one of the things I find most jarring is how different todays "trans rights activists" are from the trans people of the past. I used to collect the key to a lesbian club I helped to run in Wellington about 50 years ago from Carmen's Coffee Bar. Carmen sublet us the premises and at the end of the night we had to take the key back and pay the rent. There were no conflicts between the lesbian community and the trans communities then – they were same sex attracted and very much part of the Gay community.

           These days one cannot have a club for lesbians, or a lesbian dating service without being required to admit any man who opens his mouth and utters the magical incantation "I identify as". Our sexuality is described as a "genital fetish" which we should overcome in order to validate the requirements of autogynephiliac men.

           Things have changed.
           • weka 4.2.1.1.2.1

             8 May 2023 at 9:06 pm

             My problem is with you arguing as if all trans people believe the same ideology and act accordingly. They don't. It's easy enough to talk about TRAs instead, but when you talk about trans this and trans that, it's enabling bigotry.
       • gsays 4.2.1.2

         8 May 2023 at 7:29 pm

         Speaking of transperbole, I have a plump friend who has chosen to identify as slim, they are trans-slender.

         I'm aware this has done the rounds on the web, but since I heard it, I can't get it out of my head.
   • RedLogix 4.3

     8 May 2023 at 3:34 pm

     On a different note – and apols if someone has already referenced this – I found this article tackling yet another aspect of this debate.

     https://quillette.com/2023/05/04/fictionalizing-indigenous-history-in-the-name-of-gender-activism/
     • Anker 4.3.1

       8 May 2023 at 5:26 pm

       Its a great article Red Logix.

       And one of the inconvenient truths for people trying to smear Kellie Jay and the Let Women Speak event as Alt Right/Nazi Aligned is that Mana Wahine Korero were one of two groups who invited and hosted Kelly Jay to NZ. Doesn't quite fit does it that a Maori Womens group would be so involved in bringing a Nazi to NZ
       • Anne 4.3.1.1

         8 May 2023 at 9:03 pm

         Doesn't quite fit does it that a Maori Womens group would be so involved in bringing a Nazi to NZ.

         Big problem there Anker. Nobody with journalistic integrity accused Posie Parker (or whatever her name was but its the one she chose for her public personna) of being a Nazi. What they did note is that she attracted such people to her cause which, quite rightly, caused many to question the validity of her campaign. Big difference.

         If you and your friends want people to take you seriously, then don't allow extremists to align themselves with your cause.
         • Anker 4.3.1.1.1

           8 May 2023 at 9:33 pm

           With all due respect Anne, your sentence "nobody with journalistic integrity accused Posie Parker of being a Nazi" needs challenging.

           Of course we could debate which journalists in NZ have integrity.

           But the enclosed article I think best describes the role the NZ media had in vilifying and accsuing. Parker of being alt right/white supremicist/Nazi.

           https://quillette.com/2023/05/04/the-auckland-mobbing-of-kellie-jay-keen-was-fuelled-by-media-peddled-misinformation/

           It is a very thorough review of the NZ medias narrative that Parker was associated with the far right. Of course one of the most absurb of all the media claims was Three News, who blacked out what they claimed was Parker giving a white supremicist signal on a video clip ("too blah, blah blah to show you)". But once the clip was no longer blacked out, it was plan to see Parker was playing with her jersy zipper. After that pics circulated on the internet of a range of people giving the white supremiscist signal (this included Jacinda Ardern, and Shaneel Lal himself. Of course Parker wasn't even giving it)

           There are no Nazis associated with any of the gender critical causes I know, including Parkers. And I am involved in many GC networks in NZ.

           You have fallen for the smear Anne
           • Anne 4.3.1.1.1.1

             8 May 2023 at 10:21 pm

             https://thespinoff.co.nz/society/28-03-2023/how-nz-fringe-groups-latched-on-to-the-posie-parker-controversy

             Took me 10secs to find. You are in denial Anker. We saw them on the telly. Right wing extremists in all their ugly glory. Some were at Albert Park, others were kicking up their heels close by. One on a motorbike tried to run Marama Davidson over. Yet Posie and co. seemed quite happy to have them attach themselves to her campaign. Very bad look.

             Not taking part in this one eyed debate apart from this one-off. Off to bed to read a good John Le Carré. Much more illuminating.
             • Patricia Bremner …

               8 May 2023 at 11:05 pm

               Enjoy Anne love JLC.
             • Molly …

               9 May 2023 at 11:51 am

               Anne, given your oft-repeated experience of vilification at work (which sounds horrendous, and even more so, because it is believable), I would expect some form of due diligence and reservation at believing everything that is spoon-fed to you about others.

               However, if John Le Carré is where you want to spend your time, I'm not going to stop you.

               I leave these alternate links for others who might want to know more before taking such a strong position.

               A couple of local blog articles:

               https://cranmer.substack.com/p/violent-suppression-of-free-speech?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

               Bravo Kellie-Jay. You did the job that needed to be done.

               For all the talk in the days preceding Keen’s arrival in New Zealand of countering free speech with ‘more free speech’, that was never going to happen. We don’t have The Oxford Union or Speaker’s Corner. That’s not how we debate ideas downunder.

               The die was cast from the moment our Immigration Minister, Michael Wood, announced that Keen would be permitted to enter the country despite, in his words, her “inflammatory, vile and incorrect world views”. The Minister declared that he would prefer it if Keen “never set foot in New Zealand” and added, “I find many of her views repugnant, and am concerned by the way in which she courts some of the most vile people and groups around including white supremacists.”

               The message had been sent – by all means, come to New Zealand, but you’ll be on your own. Keen’s hotel cancelled her booking as she was mid-flight to New Zealand, and her security arrangements were also cancelled without explanation.

               https://plainsight.nz/posie-parker-and-the-problem-of-inconvenient-truths/

               In New Zealand, there is not a single right denied to people because they identify as gender diverse. The demand for males to be able to self-identify into women’s sport, to access women’s changing rooms, and for the sex on their birth certificate to be altered to state something that isn’t true is not a demand for rights. It is a demand for special treatment for a particular subset of people that requires women to put their dignity, privacy, and safety second.

               As for all those women saying “you don’t speak for me”. Remember how outraged you were when a group of women in the US gave away the reproductive rights of all women? Remember your anger, your marches, and your tears. Well you’re now them.

               You don’t get to give up other women’s sex specific spaces, services, and sports. You don’t get to say that a survivor of rape is not entitled to a female only space. You don’t get to say that a Muslim woman is not entitled to a female only swim session. And you do not get to give away the words that have described us for millennia. Woman. Mother. Daughter. Sister.

               If you want to be a menstruator, vagina-haver, or pregnant person then go for it. If you want to share your changing room, public toilet, or sports team with a male who identifies as a woman then go for it. But you don’t speak for me.
               • Anker …

                 9 May 2023 at 5:43 pm

                 I have been thinking Molly that all the women who want to give away women only spaces could be asked to support changing mens toilets and change rooms to unisex. That way these women who are so keen to give our spaces away to support transwomen, could support them by using the mens (unisex).

                 The women's only remain women's only for women and girls.

                 Interested to know what women who trumpet the trans cause think of that as a solution?
             • Anker …

               9 May 2023 at 5:36 pm

               Well Anne, I just had a look at your article and this is what it says.

               While the groups do not see eye to eye and some have routinely bad-mouthed one another, their various analyses shared a few elements: support for Keen-Minshull’s position; anger at the counter-protesters’ wall of sound which made it impossible for the British speaker to be heard; disgust at the examples of violence that were recorded at the Auckland event (though I could find no condemnation of the the incident in which a motorcycle hit Marama Davidson on a pedestrian crossing); and fury at the police for not stepping in sooner.

               You may have saw right wing extremists at Albert Park. Its an open space. Posie Parker could hardly stop them being their. Not sure how you were able to identify them. What I saw was an angry mob who intimated and were violent towards women (many older women, many lesbian).

               As for Marama's incident, I condemned it. But the accounts I read and the photographic evidence seems to suggest Marama wasn't run over but was bumped by a handlebar of a bike as she stood on a road taking a selfie. I couldn't say that is definitely what happened but that is the evidence I saw produced. Surely if Marama had have been run over the police would have found and charge the culprit by now????
               • Anne …

                 9 May 2023 at 6:35 pm

                 So, what did you see and what is just your opinion and what you thought you saw? Hard to tell with nothing to differentiate which is which. I'm surprised a moderator hasn't stepped in and admonished you.

                 Anyways… your comment makes little sense and I suspect quoted out of context.
               • weka …

                 9 May 2023 at 6:36 pm

                 I can't easily tell which are your words and which are quotes. Please make quotes clear in future.
                 • Anker …

                   9 May 2023 at 7:57 pm

                   "While the groups do not see eye to eye and some have routinely bad-mouthed one another, their various analyses shared a few elements: support for Keen-Minshull’s position; anger at the counter-protesters’ wall of sound which made it impossible for the British speaker to be heard; disgust at the examples of violence that were recorded at the Auckland event (though I could find no condemnation of the the incident in which a motorcycle hit Marama Davidson on a pedestrian crossing); and fury at the police for not stepping in sooner."

                   Sorry the above is from Anne's link.
             • Anker …

               9 May 2023 at 8:02 pm

               "We saw them on the telly. Right wing extremists in all their ugly glory. Some were at Albert Park, others were kicking up their heels close by. One on a motorbike tried to run Marama Davidson over. "

               From Annes comment above.

               You are saying that because there were right wingers close by (I imagine you mean Tamakis mob on Queen Street) that what? KJK shouldn't have held her event? That because we share one view with other groups that makes us right wing? That we should drop our gender critical views because some on the right agree with us? Is that what you are saying?

               What is your rationale for that?
     • gsays 4.3.2

       8 May 2023 at 7:44 pm

       Thanks for the read, Red.

       I have no doubt the Disinformation Project will be looking into and reporting back on Ahi Wi- Hongi's claims. Unless, of course, their's is the right sort of disinformation.
       • Incognito 4.3.2.1

         8 May 2023 at 9:31 pm

         You are misinterpreting the kind of research TDP does, which leads you to making wrong assumptions and baseless allegations.
         • Anker 4.3.2.1.1

           8 May 2023 at 9:37 pm

           Oh come on Incognito, the DP have been completely discredited across the political spectrum.

           I guess if you want me to provide links I can, but there are so many!
           https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2023/04/11/thomas-cranmer-from-academic-research-to-news-headlines-the-disinformation-projects-influence-on-nz-media/
           • Incognito 4.3.2.1.1.1

             8 May 2023 at 9:49 pm

             What’s this got to do with my comment? It is a red herring.

             As to your link: yawn
             • Anker …

               9 May 2023 at 8:06 pm

               Try this link then Incognito. I have more if you like

               https://democracyproject.nz/2023/04/12/bryce-edwards-the-need-to-take-disinformation-seriously/

               “Hattotuwa and Hannah have managed to gain a great deal of media coverage about their social media research, largely because they make quite extraordinary and colourful statements about what is going on online and it makes for good stories.

               Last week, for example, Hattotuwa claimed that in the aftermath of the Posey Parker visit levels of vitriol directed at the trans community had risen to “genocidal” levels. He argued that nefarious disinformation spreaders had entered into the transgender debate spreading hate about the transgender community, and claimed that it represents the importation of content from foreign “neo-Nazi, neo-fascist, anti-Semitic networks and individuals”.

               “These claims received plenty of sympathetic media coverage without question. Although commentator Thomas Cranmer said the claims about genocide were “absurd” and “outlandish”, and only serve “to highlight that the Disinformation Project lacks any perspective or objectivity”.
               • Incognito …

                 9 May 2023 at 8:50 pm

                 Why should I try this link or that link? Did I even ask for a link? Try what?

                 And if someone is yawning at your links, you simply do a copy-pasta dump to force them to read the stuff you want them to read?

                 My reply was to gsays who made a specific yet misleading allegation. If you don’t know what it is about you could have asked.
           • tWiggle 4.3.2.1.1.2

             8 May 2023 at 10:02 pm

             Discredited, or railed against?
             • Anker …

               9 May 2023 at 8:24 pm

               https://www.chrislynchmedia.com/news-items/thedisinformationproject

               Or this on the Disinformation Project

               “The Disinformation Project’s lack of scrutiny towards government officials and medical “experts” has raised concerns about its impartiality, with some accusing the organisation of being an extension of Labour.

               “The abundance of material available for scrutiny only adds to the suspicion that the project’s motives for avoiding criticism of the government may be motivated by ulterior political or ideological motives”.
               • Incognito …

                 9 May 2023 at 8:51 pm

                 More spamming with a copy-pasta dump. You’re starting to come across as a troll.
         • gsays 4.3.2.1.2

           8 May 2023 at 10:05 pm

           I think I have a handle on them.

           Spent way too long searching and reading them and about them. I had read somewhere (unreferenced) they had been set up as by/part of the PM's office. (I forget the official title). Trying to ascertain how they are funded too.

           In their own words:

           "The Disinformation Project is an independent research group studying misinformation and disinformation in Aotearoa New Zealand"

           "… including discourse shifts over time."

           Sums up Ahi Wi- Hongi and the quickly deleted Stuff article nicely. The discourse shifted a little too rapidly for Stuff by the sounds of it.

           I'm with Anker, the langauge they use, the framing of their pronouncements, the self importance… tdp (I can't take them seriously enough to capitalise their initials).
           • tWiggle 4.3.2.1.2.1

             8 May 2023 at 11:24 pm

             Yes, what TDP report can sound histrionic sometimes, while I find the main media interface person writes in a rather irritating tone.

             However, what TDP do is plumb the sewagey depths of our social media, when we only see the surface. The Telegram channels full of hate and lies; conspiracy pile-ons like Nuremberg 2, which drew up death lists of NZ politicians, dear Dr Bloomfield, etc; posted by the same people who brought nooses to Parliament. I saw a post around then where someone said they wanted to kill and eat Neve, Ardern's daughter. Those kinds of sewers.

             TDP sort through rhetoric that inspires NZ fruitloops of any persuasion to go out with a knife, a gun, a 4×4 people-smasher, or a bomb for Ernie. Even more, those ideas and memes, like 'Jabcinda', percolate into our daily discourse, shifting our broader society to a less tolerant, more polarised place. If you want hide your head in the sand, go ahead and call TDP discredited. That doesn't invalidate their work, or their messages.

             Wake up to the NZ alt-right conspiracy 'rent-a-crowd' anti-vaxers. They have picked up (or more accurately, been fed) anti-trans messaging as the latest outrage of the month, amping up the violent talk.

             Not helped by dear Posie Parker, who would like men who 'carry' in the US to protect their fragile womenfolk from ravening trans women perverts, by going into womens' toilets to keep them safe. With their gun(s).
             • tWiggle …

               8 May 2023 at 11:38 pm

               [deleted quote without link]

               Verbatim from Posie's video (which I've seen, but which is now deleted).
               • Anker …

                 9 May 2023 at 8:48 pm

                 tWiggle not sure what your point is there.

                 Something Parker said that has now been deleted.
                 • Incognito …

                   9 May 2023 at 9:03 pm

                   The point is that she has said it, allegedly, and she cannot un-say it.
               • joe90 …

                 9 May 2023 at 8:58 pm

                 which is now deleted

                 The interwebs are forever.

                 https://twitter.com/mimmymum/status/1355525072400875527
               • weka …

                 10 May 2023 at 12:28 am

                 there are multiple videos of that quote online that you can link to for those quotes, please supply one and I will reinstate your comment.
             • gsays …

               9 May 2023 at 10:06 am

               Yes, I have read the packet too, but didn't drink the Kool Aid.

               tdp is long and loud on rhetoric and very low on evidence.

               Another outfit making a living on the public test.
               • Incognito …

                 9 May 2023 at 9:05 pm

                 Pepsi vs. Coca Cola.
             • Anker …

               9 May 2023 at 8:46 pm

               "DP sort through rhetoric that inspires NZ fruitloops of any persuasion to go out with a knife, a gun, a 4×4 people-smasher, or a bomb for Ernie. Even more, those ideas and memes, like 'Jabcinda', percolate into our daily discourse, shifting our broader society to a less tolerant, more polarised place. If you want hide your head in the sand, go ahead and call TDP discredited. That doesn't invalidate their work, or their messages".

               I am sure there are these people out there. But why isn't it our security service doing this work? If there are very bad actors who are a threat (by that I mean violent threat) then it is the job of our security services to monitor them. They are the professionals. To my knowledge they don't publish much about what they are up to, because they need to keep a low profile to carry out their role.

               The publicity seeking DP are using their apparent finding for political purposes and to try and get contracts for funding. The fact that they engage in such hyperbolie shows them for what they are .
               • tWiggle …

                 9 May 2023 at 11:50 pm

                 Because it is outside the role of NZ’s security services to debunk mis- and disinformation for the general public.
           • Incognito 4.3.2.1.2.2

             9 May 2023 at 9:00 pm

             I think I have a handle on them.

             Sure you do, but I maintain firmly that you are misinterpreting TDP’s research.

             FYI, have a look at TDP’s resources (https://thedisinfoproject.org/resources/) and you’ll see that what you alleged @ 4.3.2 is simply not at all what TDP are doing.

             The other stuff in your comment is a school of red herrings.

             If you don’t like the message, don’t take it out on the messenger.
             • Anker …

               9 May 2023 at 9:27 pm

               I don't doubt that during the Covid pandemic and lockdown conspiracy theories were circulating, particularly amongs the anti vaxers. There have always been conspiracy theorists and most of us are capable of judging this for ourselves.

               That buried in the internet there were some bad faith actors that were possible threats I wouldn't doubt either. (i think one has been jailed recently for some plot to blow something up. Good).

               I don't doubt there are alt right people on telegram or 4 chan (sorry I don't really know what these things are, but have heard them referenced). I hope the security service is following them up and if it helps to use any of the research mthods that the DP use, well fine.

               The problem with the DP is they make public statements alleging an outrageous amount of threat (in one of the articles I posted above it means a significant amount of NZders are engaging in hate speech.) So they are alarmist and it is both polictically and financially motivated.

               I am
     • Anker 4.3.3

       8 May 2023 at 8:10 pm

       And from the link above posted by Red logix 4.3 From Mana Wahine Korero.

       "Māori history, culture, and knowledge (mātauranga) are carried forth orally and visually through the generations—via stories, songs, proverbs, carvings, tattoos, and performing arts. These have meaning beyond artistic expression and technical skill; they tell the genealogies of individuals, families, and tribes that have gone before, and mark great moments in their histories. There are no examples of anything resembling western ideas about “gender” in any of these cultural traditions.

       Nor are there any carvings, waiata (songs), or mōteatea (poetic tales of sadness, farewell, or grieving, put to music) dedicated to such themes. Not one mōteatea references the sorrow of a child “born in the wrong body.”
       • tWiggle 4.3.3.1

         8 May 2023 at 10:19 pm

         And yet, many Polynesian societies recognised more than two genders societally, from pre-colonial times.
         • Joe90 4.3.3.1.1

           8 May 2023 at 10:41 pm

           As did Babylonian Jews, apparently.

           ttps://lilith.org/articles/debut-124/

           https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-eight-genders-in-the-talmud/
         • Molly 4.3.3.1.2

           9 May 2023 at 12:06 pm

           When you say gender – do you mean sex, or a form of personal expression?

           (And also, so what? Many traditional societies have a history of misconceptions and misunderstandings – they tend to change over time. And can often be misconstrued or reinterpreted by later revisionism.)
         • Shanreagh 4.3.3.1.3

           9 May 2023 at 1:06 pm

           The question is not really about gender though, I see the expression of different identities at any time throughout history as unremarkable. Just showing that expression of difference is part of human life through the ages and often welcomed, or at least not railed against..

           What the current queries are all about though is sex. Apart from very small numbers of intersex or where sex at birth is not able to be immediately observed there are only two sexes.

           So the magic thinking that a man can turn into a women with the application of words, chemicals or surgery is a nonsense biologically.
         • gsays 4.3.3.1.4

           10 May 2023 at 6:17 pm

           “And yet, many Polynesian societies recognised more than two genders societally, from pre-colonial times.”

           There's a few societies that recognise and practice female genital mutlation.

           Oops, probably a poor example.
     • tWiggle 4.3.4

       9 May 2023 at 8:11 am

       https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/quillette-fascist-creep/

       "Quillette was founded in 2015 by Claire Lehmann, an Australian who in 2017 also served as an on-air contributor to the Canadian far-right, anti-Muslim network Rebel Media, where she once delivered a “report” titled “How feminism has fuelled obesity crisis.”

       "Lehmann has said she started Quillette to counter what she calls “blank slate fundamentalism,” or the proposition that educational outcomes, career success, capacity for ethics, and economic class are determined more by environmental factors than genetic ones. That is to say, she believes that social status, morality or immorality, and, yes, income itself are all genetically based."

       Quillette has been rated by media-rating orgs as a bit right-biased, producing articles with a range of factual integrity, ie it does little fact-checking. The Nation is an Aussie progressive opinion magazine.

       I put up this info not to address the content of the article (but note the Māori organisation mentioned is closely associated with NZ Speak up for Women). I put it up so that TS readers are aware of Quillette's ideological position when they cruise the back catalogue.
       • Molly 4.3.4.1

         9 May 2023 at 12:15 pm

         "I put up this info not to address the content of the article (but note the Māori organisation mentioned is closely associated with NZ Speak up for Women). I put it up so that TS readers are aware of Quillette's ideological position when they cruise the back catalogue."

         Isn't that always the case though tWiggle?

         Thank you for your concern that people's critical thinking may not be impaired by source, and your attempt to rectify that.

         Adults are often capable of following through on aspects in articles, to check out for themselves.

         As I did, after your request, here:

         .https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-20-04-2023/#comment-1946795

         Which despite the time and effort expended at your request, you never responded to.

         No matter.

         But it remains an example of how people can fact check without needing someone to pre-approve sources for them.
       • weka 4.3.4.2

         9 May 2023 at 12:29 pm

         two observations.

         1. No Debate means the usual outlets that progressives would get published in have closed their doors. This is in part ideological, and in part fear of being cancelled. The neoliberal left's enabling of this means that they can't complain about progressives publishing in non-left media. Or they can, but it's disingenuous to do so (we don't publish you and if you get published elsewhere you will be scorned, so basically fuck off Naziterf).

         2. if the genderist left won't read non-left media, they're in a bubble that will eventually implode. It's a disturbing theme across the left currently, an inability or unwillingness to tolerate dissent and difference which is why the left didn't see VFF coming and still don't have a good understanding of what is going on
       • Shanreagh 4.3.4.3

         9 May 2023 at 12:59 pm

         The points to note are

         1 Laura Lopez has been here on TS

         https://thestandard.org.nz/how-i-answered-the-census-gender-question/

         2 You are 'on a hiding to nothing', as they say, in trying 'to push a barrow' that women's issues have a strong left right political component. I know from talking, reading that women's issues and this issue in particular is apolitical. In different countries the impetus is coming from different ends of the political spectrum.

         So the shock, horror value in making a comment that a publication & its editorial slant come from a particular political leaning is not there.

         Following on from Molly I too would welcome you responding to the queries that people may have raised or acknowledging work, in an effort to see where the arguments (and possible points of agreement) are. As an example it would have been great to have had views/answers to my queries. As it is we seem to have to go back to ground zero every time the issue is raised.

         https://thestandard.org.nz/daily-review-20-04-2023/#comment-1946802

         22 April 2023 at 10:32 am

         Hvaing said all of this Media bias fact check is a good source.
       • Anker 4.3.4.4

         9 May 2023 at 8:32 pm

         Laura Lopez has contributed to the Standard!!!????!!! That must make her……a left winger……………………..
         • Shanreagh 4.3.4.4.1

           9 May 2023 at 10:29 pm

           I know thus supporting my view that people supporting women's issues are likely to be issues-based rather than political-side based.

           And surely that is the way we would want it to be, universal truths/needs are not or should not be the preserve only of a certain political leaning/party. If we can use our links to the political parties/side we support to achieve the ends we want that is a different matter.
5. Anker 5

   8 May 2023 at 8:06 pm

   LOL gsays!
6. tWiggle 6

   9 May 2023 at 9:52 pm

   Your questions were:

   1 Why are men not urged to accept and protect non conforming males into their spaces. 2 Why provisions could not be made for separate facilities to be built?

   I did not answer these questions because you advocate for removal of existing access of transgender women to e.g. female toilets and women-only sessions at swimming pools, which has been going on for years in NZ with no issue. You want to segregate people that you personally feel uncomfortable around from public spaces they currently share with you.

   Hence the onus is not on me to reply to your two proposed 'solutions' to what appears very strongly to be a non-existent problem in NZ. It is on you to justify your assertion that there is a problem, using solid facts and figures from our own society.

   I have already covered this in my posts around the 22 April, which you appear not to have read. I'm still waiting for the hard data from NZ that proves the problem you claim: please answer MY questions from 22nd April.

   I post here on this topic to provide a small balance for others who see mostly only your points of view. I post my own interpretation primarily, I am not parroting a party line. I analyse the information sources you post, because I believe that who someone's fellow travellers are says something significant about the social value of their argument.
   • Shanreagh 6.1

     10 May 2023 at 8:43 am

     Thanks……I was mainly after your point of view. I do not quote a party line, mine are views honed over years including formal women's studies research and with a family background in women's issues.

     The point about harm though is that as perceptive and far sighted indiviudals countries we should not have to wait until the harm that has been found overseas manifests itself here in NZ before taking steps to minmise the potential. So if this is your view the real query is

     how many women in NZ have to be harmed before we say the trend has been demonstrated?

     or are we sensible as a country and put in palce mitigations so our female population does not need to be experimented with?

     Is there some reason you are now saying transgender?

     Does anyone else have a view as to these queries. tWiggles views about my views, are incorrect.

     As a matter of scholarship and getting to grips with the transwomen argument for allowing male bodied people (many who do not have any steps along the way such as surgery or use of chemicals to enhance the characteristics of femaleness) into womens places and sports.

     1 Why are men not urged to accept and protect non conforming males into their spaces.

     2 Why provisions could not be made for separate facilities to be built?

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