Open Mike 08/07/2018

51 comments on “Open Mike 08/07/2018 ”

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1. Jenny 1

   8 July 2018 at 8:10 am

   It’s worth remembering that in New Zealand we didn’t arrest a woman for throwing a sex toy at a politician, so we clearly have a sense that protest is allowed to be offensive, but so-called “sensible centrists” in the USA have a long history with privileging civility over protest, sadly. We should do better. Civility doesn’t mean letting people get away with breaking our democratic norms and hurting other people. It means behaving in a way that reflects our civic duties- which arguably, in a modern democracy, obliges us to protest the intolerable, however we choose to do so.

   Matthew Whitehead – June 26th, 2018

   “….., obliges us to protest the intolerable, however we choose to do so.”

   Today in New Zealand in one particular instance we currently don’t allow this.

   For the first time in New Zealand’s history protest has been made illegal in law.

   Polls show a majority of New Zealanders are opposed to deep sea oil drilling.

   A smaller but more determined section of the population, found it “intolerable” and felt “obliged” to protest.

   Protests by Te Whanau a Apanui partnered with Greenpeace successfully disrupted the operations of Brazilian based oil driller Petrobras in the waters of the Raukumara basin off the East Coast of the North Island.

   Ultimately, Te Whanau a Apanui and their supporters achieved a stunning victory over Petrobras, but at a price, Elvis Teddy the skipper and owner of the San Pietro, the fishing vessel at the centre of the protests was charged with breaching the Maritime Transport Act.

   Clearly not satisfied the government did something that not even Muldoon ever did.

   The Anadarko Amendment

   At the behest of the oil companies the National Government passed an amendment to the Crown Minerals Act to make it illegal to protest within 500m of any oil company vessel or rig.

   This is the first time that protest has been specifically made illegal in law.

   In the past you could get charged with invading a football pitch or blocking a motorway, or breaching the Maritime Transport laws, but never before could you get charged with protesting.

   Even at the peak of the Springbok tour protests Muldoon did not make it illegal to protest within 500m of a football stadium. Neither did the Muldoon administration make it illegal to protest within 500m of a nuclear powered warship.

   This unjust law has got to go.
   • Gabby 1.1

     8 July 2018 at 9:49 am

     Think of the … implications … that might make close contact out at sea between bloodyminded protesters and bloodyminded oilers undesirable.
     • Jenny 1.1.1

       8 July 2018 at 11:18 am

       Indeed Gabby. In fact, it is my opinion that if this law was repealed, the oil prospectors would just pack up and go.

       I am informed of this by the effectiveness of the protests.

       The effectiveness of the protests is why, (after heavy lobbying by the oil companies to do so), National enacted the AA in the first place.

       And we are not talking about a small amount of exploration and exploitation here, but a massive amount.

       “There are 31 oil and gas exploration permits currently active, 22 are offshore. These permits cover an area of 100,000 square kilometers, nearly the size of the North Island, and run as far out as 2030 and could go an additional 40 years under a mining permit.”

       We will still be exploring for more oil reserves in 2030 and drilling them in 2070!

       And Simon Bridges says he will be issuing even more exploration permits when National returns to power.

       While the government ban on offering any more new block offers is good.

       The oil companies themselves have said they they have more than enough permits to go on with and don’t see this ban having any impact on their production or exploration activities.

       In the light of these statements…..

       Our only real long term gauranteed defence against new offshore and deep sea oil drilling in our waters will be in regaining the right to protest against them.

       NEW OFFSHORE DRILLING ON THE HORIZON FOR NZ

       Tamarind Resources and OMV in talks to secure rig for the first campaign in the country since 2014

       Negotiations are underway to bring an offshore drilling rig into New Zealand in early 2019 for a campaign of wells on behalf of at least two operators.

       The drilling programmes will involve the operators Tamarind Resources and OMV, and possibly one other company, said sources.

       Tamarind will have first use of the rig, followed by OMV, with both operators focused on the Taranaki basin.

       This represents the first offshore drilling campaign in New Zealand since 2014.

       Kuala Lumpur-headquartered Tamarind has previously outlined its plans to drill up to five wells in the Tui Area oil complex that it owns in its entirety following Tamarind’s purchase of the asset from the previous joint venture partnership.

       Sources said Tamarind is definitely going ahead with the programme in the second quarter of 2019 and has made a series of contractual commitments in terms of a rig and other services.

       The identity of the rig owner could not be confirmed, but sources indicated that it could be Diamond Offshore, which has the semi-submersible Ocean Monarch currently in work across the Tasman Sea in the Gippsland basin off Australia.

       The Ocean Monarch is currently engaged with Cooper Energy and will then spend the second half of this year working for ExxonMobil, also in the Gippsland basin.

       Diamond is doing rig marketing work directly and has been introduced to various operators in New Zealand.

       Tamarind’s chief executive Ian Angell said his company “is committed to proceeding with its 2019 Tui phase three infill development campaign, and we hope that by leading on the rig will be a catalyst for additional activity in New Zealand during 2019”.

       “The regulatory process is going very well… Any concerns that the industry may have regarding New Zealand regulatory policy changes are not in any way impacting our review so far,” added Angell.

       Meanwhile, OMV has begun its own process of seeking regulatory approvals for a campaign comprising nine exploration wells and three appraisal wells.

       The 12 wells are located in the Taranaki basin in six different permits in which OMV is the operator.

       The drilling, which OMV says will begin in 2019, will be completed as a part of one or more separate campaigns over the duration of the various exploration permits.

       One of the six permits is PMP38160, which contains the producing Maari oilfield as well as the Raroa floating production, storage and offloading vessel, and the Maari wellhead platform.

       The remaining five assets are exploration blocks — PEP 51906 (Cascade), PEP 57075 (Cloudy Bay), PEP 60091 (Te Whatu), PEP 60092 (Ridgeline) and PEP 60093 (Toutouwai).

       Water depths at the 12 well locations are shallow, ranging from 102 metres to 158 metres.

       The government environment regulator is currently processing the applications by both Tamarind and OMV. The Austrian company will be the dominant operator in New Zealand once its acquisition of Shell’s in-country upstream assets is completed in late 2018, giving it operatorship and major equity in three of the largest offshore fields — Pohokura, Maui and Maari.

       It recently shed light on seven exploration blocks in the basins it considers the most prospective — the Taranaki, the East Coast (Pegasus) and the Canterbury-Great South basin.

       The company is seeking to farm down some of its equity in two permits in the Taranaki basin — PEP 57075 and PEP 51906 — which it currently shares with Malaysia’s Sapura Energy.

       OMV is also looking to farm down up to 40% in one block in the Canterbury-Great South basin and one in the East Coast basin.

       The Austrian player also reiterated that the New Zealand government’s decision to not issue any new offshore exploration permits would have no impact on existing permits and rights, meaning that if OMV drills a discovery well it can be converted into a production licence.

       Chief financial officer Reinhard Florey said recently: “We are in a very good position in New Zealand. We’re having around 50% of all available exploration licences in New Zealand.

       “So even if there would be a tender of licences right now, we would not go for it because we have sufficient licences for the next 10 years, 15 years to explore. So we don’t see any impact on our business, not on the production as well as on the exploration activities.” *

       Russell Searancke – Wellington, June 28, 2018, 22:00 GMT

       * My emphasis, J.
       • Gabby 1.1.1.1

         8 July 2018 at 11:24 am

         I was thinking more of the vulnerability of protesters a long way from shore aboard a vessel crewed by angry oilers jenny.
         • Jenny 1.1.1.1.1

           8 July 2018 at 2:37 pm

           Why on earth would protesters want to get on board a vessel crewed by angry oilers Gabby?

           Honest question, especially when the protesters have been using far more effective proven tactics.

           The most effective tactic used by the protesters to date, has been to blockade the survey sight lines of the oil prospecting ships, ruining their surveys and making the data incomplete and worthless. Any break in the seismic survey data stream means having to restart again from scratch, causing delays running into the tens of millions of dollars it costs to run one these ships for even just a day.

           This was the tactic used by Te Whanau a Apanui professional fisherman and skipper. Elvis Teddy, who used his fishing trawler the San Pietro to successfully block the progress of the Petrobras Seismic Survey ship.

           Iwi leader Rikirangi Gage was on board fishing boat San Pietro alongside Apanui fisherman, Elvis Teddy, when Gage stoically informed the oncoming seismic ship by radio that “we will not be moving, we will be doing some fishing”.

           A few days earlier, activist Kylie Matthews (Ngāpuhi), had entered the dark blue water in front of the blaster with a ‘Stop Deep Sea Oil’ banner, forcing it off course. These three are surely the first among many heroes who, over coming years, would join the campaign to defend New Zealand’s waters from the invasive dangers of oil exploration.

           https://www.greenpeace.org/new-zealand/story/greenpeace-oil-campaign-seven-years-in-the-wilderness/
           • Jenny 1.1.1.1.1.1

             9 July 2018 at 7:14 am

             The overwhelming success of the campaign spearheaded by Te Whanau a Apanui using the fishing boat San Pietro, (referred to above), inspired Greenpeace to crowdfund the purchase of their own similar sized vessel that could get out to the deep water to continue the protests against off shore oil drilling. where the seismic surveying is being done.

             This Greenpeace vessel was christened the Taitu. The meaning and purpose of Taitu is in the name.

             ABOUT THE MV TAITU

             Taitu is a verb meaning to hinder, impede, deter, and thwart an enemy. As a name for a boat it references the sea (Tai) and Tu means standing, strength, warrior spirit.

             MV Taitu is Greenpeace NZ’s new crowdfunded boat. It was purchased in March 2017 following a crowdfunding campaign. It now wears the rainbow stripes and follows in a long tradition of similar Greenpeace vessels and crazy dreams and protest at sea stretching back some 40 years.

             http://www.greenpeace.org.nz/taitu/taitu.php
   • Ad 1.2

     8 July 2018 at 10:41 am

     Fair enough to amend it, and the BORA riders to drafting bills are just tattered ribbons from all the holes they’ve had shot through them.

     But if a protester is about to put any ship at risk, they need to be cleared legitimately out of the way. Run the same scenario around protesters around trains, planes, or trucks, or cars, or bulldozers. If there is an accident – as occurred when the driver for Chester Burrows ran over the foot of a protester, it’s ridiculously hard to be accountable for the physical safety of a protester. At some point it’s not the drivers’ or captain’s culpable fault if there’s a major accident or fatality.
     • Jenny 1.2.1

       8 July 2018 at 1:46 pm

       Ad do you really think a New Zealand Centre Left, or even Centre Right government would be prepared to kill to keep destroying the climate?
       • Ad 1.2.1.1

         8 July 2018 at 4:01 pm

         Been done before in our past for far smaller reasons.
         • patricia bremner 1.2.1.1.1

           8 July 2018 at 7:27 pm

           The targetted strikes against striking workes or protestors has happened before.
           The miner Evans struck down by hired strike breakers, and killed in Waihi.
           There have been easily enacted statutes on the books to bring in Marshall Law.
           Now they can also spy on any New Zealander for any reason. We have less rights!! Not more, since Key.

           We seldom get them back.
           There is no ombudsman for protestors, or strikers.
         • Jenny 1.2.1.1.2

           9 July 2018 at 5:34 am

           Well, I don’t know about that. Maybe you should give a link.

           But finding justification for killing protesters, Ad?

           You would make a good Assadist.
   • Draco T Bastard 1.3

     8 July 2018 at 12:56 pm

     At the behest of the oil companies the National Government passed an amendment to the Crown Minerals Act to make it illegal to protest within 500m of any oil company vessel or rig.

     [citation needed]

     Considering National’s support of business over everything else they probably wouldn’t need an actual request before passing such a law.
     • Jenny 1.3.1

       9 July 2018 at 6:27 am

       Kia ora Draco

       My apologies. I have written you a response to your request for a citation. Unfortunately the site won’t let me post it for some reason.

       I keep getting this fault message.

       Request Timeout
       Server timeout waiting for the HTTP request from the client.

       Apache/2.4.29 (Ubuntu) Server at thestandard.org.nz Port 443

       Maybe there is something in the comment that the machine doesn’t like.

       I could hunt around, I suppose, to find something the machine might like. But really, I can’t be bothered.

       I hope you can accept this apology.
     • lprent 1.3.2

       9 July 2018 at 6:30 am

       Jenny’s response (presumably she had problems posting as it came in via email) is:-

       Draco T Bastard 1.3
       8 July 2018 at 12:56 pm
       At the behest of the oil companies the National Government passed an amendment to the Crown Minerals Act to make it illegal to protest within 500m of any oil company vessel or rig.

       [citation needed]

       Well obviously.

       With recent political announcements, now seems a fitting time to recount some of that history.

       By the year following the first Oil Free Seas flotilla, Petrobras had relinquished their oil exploration permit and announced their exit. I distinctly remember Apanui lawyer, Dayle Takitimu – a lynchpin and stalwart of the struggle – calling to see if the reports were a ruse of some sort. In the depths of fears for a treasured home, it sometimes seemed impossible that we might succeed.

       The next company to tarnish our horizon – literally, in a 34,000 tonne drillship – was Texan driller, Anadarko. Almost too bad to be true, they had a 25% interest in the worst oil disaster in history: the Deepwater Horizon blowout in the Gulf of Mexico, which spewed oil up from 1,500 metres below the surface for 87 days in 2011, choking the gulf and all the creatures that lived there in thick crude. It was a picture book apocalypse – oil on fire at sea – billowing columns of black into the sky.

       Now Anadarko were coming to our seas, both the East Coast off Kaikoura to seismic blast, and the West Coast directly off Raglan, to drill at – you guessed it – 1,500 meters.

       Anadarko’s imminent arrival off Kaikoura incurred the wrath of local iwi, the wider community and eco tourism operators who, Led by Sir Mark Solomon, rallied to defend their customary waters in an unprecedented show of united protest.

       And then over Easter 2013, the Minister of Energy and Resources Simon Bridges snuck out an announcement of a new draconian anti protest law designed specifically to stop groups like Greenpeace and its allies protesting against oil ships at sea. The legislation, dubbed the ‘Anadarko Amendment’, was condemned as anti-democratic by former Prime Minister, Sir Geoffrey Palmer, and public figures including Dame Anne Salmond and Sir Ted Thomas.

       Steve Abel – April 21, 2018

       https://www.greenpeace.org/new-zealand/story/greenpeace-oil-campaign-seven-years-in-the-wilderness/

       Jenny: Next time tell me what is going on please..
       • Jenny 1.3.2.1

         9 July 2018 at 10:36 am

         Thank you lprent. Will do.
         • Draco T Bastard 1.3.2.1.1

           9 July 2018 at 11:24 am

           That still doesn’t show that it was the result of oil company lobbying. Just because it was dubbed the ‘Anadarko Amendment’ by Greenpeace doesn’t mean that it had anything to do with Anadarko.

           I wouldn’t be surprised if it was but you still need to provide proof of your assertion that it was because of oil company lobbying.

           I suggest using https://fyi.org.nz/ to make an OIA request concerning communications between the oil companies and National, ACT, and Peter Dunne in the times leading up to the tabling of the amendment. You may need to write several such requests.
           • Jenny 1.3.2.1.1.1

             9 July 2018 at 11:35 am

             Great idea.

             I will get right on to it.

             You say it might take several such requests.

             Maybe if lots of others did it as well, they might cough up.

             Cheers J.
2. cleangreen 2

   8 July 2018 at 8:25 am

   Agreed Jenny; 100%

   Your example of ‘The Anadarko Amendment’ is a very good example of National Party Governence; – “do what i say, not what I do”.
3. joe90 3

   8 July 2018 at 9:08 am

   Shorter, the US has no intention of ending the nuclear umbrella security alliance with Seoul.

   While Pyongyang had hoped the United States would “come up with constructive measures to help build confidence” and sought “balanced implementation” of the June 12 DPRK-U.S. agreement, it continued, the American negotiators had demanded unilateral nuclear disarmament.

   “What the U.S. is requesting is the cancerous demands from previous administrations that blocked all dialogue processes,” the statement said, arguing that a phased, step-by-step approach would be the “fastest way to realize the denuclearization of the Korean peninsula.

   https://www.nknews.org/2018/07/north-korea-expresses-regret-at-outcomes-of-two-day-dprk-u-s-talks/
   • Stuart Munro 3.1

     8 July 2018 at 2:09 pm

     I’m afraid the US designed progress to be stymied in Korea with the six party process.

     Surprisingly good incidental coverage of the issues can be found in Steel Rain: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6769508/
4. AsleepWhileWalking 4

   8 July 2018 at 10:04 am

   Why should you be concerned the IMF is influencing our Tax Working Group to introduce *land tax*??

   Because the IMF is independent of any government, its members cannot be held to account under any law (yep hard to believe but horrifyingly true), and don’t their members feature in John Perkins, Confessions of an Economic Hitman? When the IMF suggest changes to “help” Kiwibuild or our people in general should raise a very large red flag.

   https://www.interest.co.nz/property/94634/imf-are-calling-tax-working-group-consider-raising-land-taxes-bid-help-give

   Think sovereign nations being manipulated our of their resources, war and shitty social outcomes. This is how it starts

   The Fund is lobbying the Tax Working Group (TWG) directly, saying raising the tax “would increase the recurrent cost of holding land, thereby encouraging its re-development.”
   • AsleepWhileWalking 4.1

     8 July 2018 at 10:20 am

     Maori land is known for its lack of utilization. How would a TWG recommendation of land tax go down with the guardians of Maori land?

     Not very well at all I imagine.

     IMF, meet Treaty. Heh.
   • One Two 4.2

     8 July 2018 at 9:57 pm

     NZ was taken over by the IMF in the 1960’s…

     Anything the IMF come back for is because The Realm of NZ still has a debt* to the IMF…
5. Ad 5

   8 July 2018 at 10:17 am

   Good sharp article from Matthew Hooten in the NZHerald this morning on Trump and trade, and New Zealand’s approach to multilateral trade arrangements:

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12083729

   Particularly good to see him very positively cite both the Clark administration’s Growth and Innovation Framework, and the Ardern administrations’ handling of international relationships in the era of Trump.
6. cold_hard_facts 6

   8 July 2018 at 1:32 pm

   [lprent: I’m tempted to do my usual response to link-whores – deliberately disabling the links. But they are moderately germane to the discussion if your topic even if they do appear to have been written by historically illiterate idiots.

   For instance I could point out exactly every point you make here about Islam are also in the bible, the talmud, and we won’t even mention what the fuckwit crusaders did to justify their sack of fellow christians in Constantinople in 1204.

   Please attempt to actually mount an argument on this site rather than simply dribbling semen links as you religiously masturbate. We aren’t really a good site for juveniles discovering themselves. ]

   Dear Phil Goff and the “Southern-Molyneux ban gang” –

   A *huge* “thank you” for banning those nasty awful truth-mongers Southern and Molyneux!

   Heck, they would have told us that followers of Islam have killed an estimated 270 million people (and counting) in the last 1400 years!
   Source – https://www.politicalislam.com/tears-of-jihad/

   Who could *possibly* be against that? They are, but that just makes them “extremists” and “Islamophobes”.

   They would have told us that the Koran contains over 500 verses that are intolerant of non-Muslims –
   Source – http://dttj.blogspot.com/2010/08/intolerance-toward-non-muslims-in-quran.html

   – and over 100 verses calling on Muslims to wage war against non-Muslims.
   Source – http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm

   Who could *possibly* be against that? They are, but that just makes them “extremists” and “Islamophobes”.

   They would have told us that pedophilia is allowed in Islam. After all, Mohammed (Islam’s founder), married his wife Aisha when she was 6 and consummated the marriage when she was 9.
   Source – https://gloria.tv/article/L4x4aHUixC8j2ewQbWy6nd9mF – written by EX-MUSLIMS
   Source – https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Pedophilia

   Who could *possibly* be against that? They are, but that just makes them “extremists” and “Islamophobes”.

   They would have told us that “thighing” of infants is allowed in Islam.
   Source – https://themuslimissue.wordpress.com/2013/08/03/fatwa-number-41409-surah-654-mufa-khathat-thighing-of-infants/
   Source – http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2014/03/muhammad-and-thighing-of-aisha.html

   Who could *possibly* be against that? They are, but that just makes them “extremists” and “Islamophobes”.

   They would have told us that rape is allowed in Islam.
   Source – https://counteringislamism.wordpress.com/rape/

   So is wife-beathing.
   Source – https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Wife_Beating_in_Islam

   Who could *possibly* be against that? They are, but that just makes them “extremists” and “Islamophobes”.

   They would have told us that slavery is permitted in Islam.
   Source – https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Slavery
   Source – https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Law#Slavery
   Source – https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/slavery.aspx

   Who could *possibly* be against that? They are, but that just makes them “extremists” and “Islamophobes”.

   They would have told us that so-called “Muslim immigration” is part of Islam and is
   part of its plan to dominate non-Muslim countries.
   Source – https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2009/08/the_hijra.html

   Who could *possibly* be against that? They are, but that just makes them “extremists” and “Islamophobes”.

   They might even have told us of a site where you can find answers to objections when
   talking about Islam!
   http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2010/04/answers-to-objections-when-you-talk.html

   Thank you SO much, Phil and the gang! Britain should have had you in 1939!
   If they’d had you then, they would have realised that Nazism is an “ideology of peace”
   and that the flag is sooo pretty, as were the goose-stepping soldiers!
   How silly of ANYONE to think otherwise!

   You have saved us from the FACTS, Phil and the gang! Wonderful!
   Never let the facts get in the way of a good banning!

   To paraphrase Col. Jessup from “A Few Good Men” – “New Zealand can’t HANDLE the TRUTH!”.
   Thanks for saving us from it, Phil and the gang!

   Regards –

   cold_hard_facts
   • adam 6.1

     8 July 2018 at 2:31 pm

     Hire the hall yourself snowball.

     Stop whining.
   • cleangreen 6.2

     8 July 2018 at 3:06 pm

     Food for thought though Adam.

     “None so deaf as those who wont listen”

     Some history there to observe and consider firstly dont you think?

     I am for all views to be expressed and heard but believe in all inclussiveness also.
   • marty mars 6.3

     8 July 2018 at 3:25 pm

     Good stuff cold sad sack really impressive – lol just joking it really was shit bub.
   • Stuart Munro 6.4

     8 July 2018 at 3:35 pm

     Go back a few hundred years and Christians did all those things. Even Buddhists have been pretty warlike from time to time. But the average moderate Christian or Buddhist or Muslim is a pretty good neighbor. Which it seems you are not.
   • Tuppence Shrewsbury 6.5

     8 July 2018 at 5:11 pm

     A right wing ed. Marvellous
     • mauī 6.5.1

       8 July 2018 at 8:44 pm

       Dreams are free tupperware… dreams are free
   • Gabby 6.6

     8 July 2018 at 6:41 pm

     Col Jessy was a bad ‘un coldhardnuts.
   • mauī 6.7

     8 July 2018 at 8:50 pm

     You got your understanding of a different culture from a 23 year old caucasian internet celeb who represented Canada’s ACT party?
     • Incognito 6.7.1

       8 July 2018 at 9:09 pm

       To be honest, she’s wise beyond her years and loves travelling 😉
7. Incognito 7

   8 July 2018 at 2:30 pm

   It’s not what you know but whom you know. Similarly, it’s not what you say but who says what.

   In any type of debate arguments should stand on their own veracity and be well-supported with evidence. This is particularly the case in debates on scientific issues. Neither side should have an advantage based on popularity (name recognition), preference & privilage, reputation & credentials or past performance – this can easily slide into irrational personal hero-worship (cult leaders) on the on the one hand and derangement syndromes on the other. However, this is not how we use heuristics, not in daily life nor in scientific debates.

   If we were to delegate such debates to two supercomputers there would be much less if any favouritism and bias; it would be utterly boring and emotionless too. As it would not be a contest of ideas or facts even but rather a synthesis of everything (i.e. connecting all the dots), in the end there would be no winners either; a likely outcome would be that the two computers would skirt around the boundaries of all existing (human) knowledge and possibly extrapolate outwards with hypothetical predictions that can then be followed up experimentally (and conducted by humans).

   Even if we were in the position of letting computers ‘solve’ (our) scientific problems I reckon we should not go down that path. Because it removes an essential part of what it is to be human, which is to engage with the world and each other to come to a discernible truth and gain a deeper understanding of the physical world. We should not become fully subsidiary to output from computers and instead use and strengthen our own neural and social networks to figure things out for ourselves with the help of computers.

   We derive a large part of our personal/individual but also group/collective identity from these kinds of interactions and debates – we influence and are simultaneously affected – irrespective of whether we actively participate or lurk in the background, nodding our heads in agreement or shaking them with displeasure or anger, for example. We should never allow computers to take this (our identity and raison d’être) away from us, not even for the sake of expediency.

   The same reasoning can be extended and applies to any social and political discourse. Reality, however, is different in that public opinion and judgement is bestowed on the person more than on the message. (NB Sometimes the message and messenger are inextricably linked) We see this every day, in MSM and here on TS, for example, where labels fly thick & fast, where people get ridiculed and quickly stigmatised and even personally threatened. If we could get unstuck from this habit and lift our debates by focussing more on the message, but not completely ignore the messenger, I believe we would make more headway with progressive changes that we all want but cannot seem to formulate persuasively enough so that they can and do translate into actual actions.
8. adam 8

   8 July 2018 at 2:49 pm

   One has got to wonder, if India will once again vote in that very indian fascist Narendra Modi and his BJP?

   The war of words is starting afresh.

   https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/pm-narendra-modi-attacks-congress-in-rajasthan-says-party-called-bail-gaadi-1879526

   One has to wonder how many innocent people will be killed to keep this time around, to keep this guy in power?
   • OnceWasTim 8.1

     9 July 2018 at 9:08 am

     Quite likely he’ll be voted in again. But then there’s also growing dissatisfaction with the “Chai Wala”
     BJP, and in particular Modi are such shameless self-promoters, often using the public’s money to do so. (Every government owned petrol station has a gigantic photo of Modi telling everyone what He has done for them).
     They ride on the wave of the anti-corruption crusade whilst being equally corrupt.
     Eventually though, there’ll be a gigantic swing the other way – maybe after the next election
9. Poission 9

   8 July 2018 at 4:24 pm

   good agreement for foodstuffs distribution workers

   http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU1807/S00193/supermarket-giant-agrees-to-super-wage-deal.htm
   • Bewildered 9.1

     8 July 2018 at 6:22 pm

     Wonder how much automation and robotics is going into foodies new DC planned for completion next couple years Saying that less workers but higher skilled jobs not all bad
   • patricia bremner 9.2

     8 July 2018 at 7:47 pm

     That is really heart warming. We shop with them, and I’d be prepared to pay more if it helps these businesses pay their workers properly. They will have less sick leave, a more engaged workforce who will feel valued. The workers will have more going to savings (Kiwi saver) and less going to “Get me over the hump treats” Lollies coffee etc.
10. AsleepWhileWalking 10

    8 July 2018 at 7:30 pm

    This is unnecessary.

    http://i.stuff.co.nz/the-press/national/election-2011/105264519/Governments-shocking-6-5-million-funding-cut-to-cochlear-implants
    • Graeme 10.1

      8 July 2018 at 10:47 pm

      Looks like a one off funding by Coleman, that didn’t roll over to the new government, and next budget because it was one off, and maybe hidden a bit. New government got caught out and National pounced?
      • Incognito 10.1.1

        8 July 2018 at 11:03 pm

        You’re spot on, Graeme.

        In 2017, the adult cochlear implant programs got a one off funding boost of $6.5 million to enable 120 adults to get an implant in 2018, something that was well worth celebrating.

        https://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/article/undoctored/calling-sustainable-funding-cochlear-implants
11. AsleepWhileWalking 11

    8 July 2018 at 7:53 pm

    MSD needs to learn the difference between being given authority to act vs must act.

    Here they are feigning powerlessness over cutting a retiree’s Super.

    https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/105242391/superannuation-will-be-cut-after-retiree-refuses-to-apply-for-australian-pension
    • Gabby 11.1

      9 July 2018 at 10:30 am

      I don’t understand why she doesn’t want to help recover money from the ockers.
12. adam 12

    8 July 2018 at 8:20 pm

    God Bless all these good people.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/jul/07/chicago-gun-control-march
13. eco maori 13

    9 July 2018 at 11:48 am

    Some music I’m listening to at the minute

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOsM-DYAEhY&start_radio=1&list=RDgOsM-DYAEhY

    And one of my favourite bands is coming to Aotearoa UB40

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/entertainment/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501119&objectid=12064321

    Ka kite ano
14. eco maori 14

    9 July 2018 at 3:14 pm

    I agree with this persons views on Aotearoas Productivity Anuja Nadkarni if we don’t keep up with the Jones than we will slip down the OECD ladder into the 3 world status and thats a fact. Mean while all the right wing business owners leave Aotearoa with there money laughing .The Labour lead Coalition Governments Kiwi build using prefab built housing is a step in the correct direction for US.
    We have to keep up with the latest technology give all mokopunas the best education we can to stop Aotearoa decline in living standards I’m not going to say it link below

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/105323846/nzs-reputation-of-having-a-high-quality-of-life-could-be-under-threat-economist-says

    Ka kite ano
    • eco maori 14.1

      9 July 2018 at 5:53 pm

      Here is a phenomenon thats is new to Eco Maori we have to use alternatives to sand in OUR constructions around Papatuanuku as OUR use of sand is creating another environmental disaster link is below.Ka kit ano

      https://www.theguardian.com/global/2018/jul/01/riddle-of-the-sands-the-truth-behind-stolen-beaches-and-dredged-islands
15. eco maori 15

    9 July 2018 at 6:39 pm

    Newshub Many thanks to Elon Mus for offering to help and sending a small moko submarine to the Tai mokopunas trapped in the caves in Thailand .
    Japan is feeling the wrath of climate change Eco Maori sends his condolences for te tangata that have been lost is these natural disasters no matter how good a engineer tangata are Papatuanuku will win in the end we must learn to work with mothernature to survive Global Warming I know it a bit wrong using some people disasters to highlight Human Caused Global Warming but this will save many more Tangata than keeping quiet about this situation .
    Can anyone see whats happening with NZF Eco can see it a mile away same as I seen those two pro NZF on Marae yesterday morning showing there bad qualities are just like the person they were defending bullies .
    Eco Maori beleves that Tec is going to become a major export earner for Aotearoa in the near future I encourage everyone I can to get into computa gaming and codeing .
    Ingrd Tawhiri has been fooling the met service lately NO.
    Ka kite ano P.S were I come from Pakeha ment bad breath
16. eco maori 16

    9 July 2018 at 7:29 pm

    The Crowd Goes Wilde I don’t back sports stars any more but one could easily gess who I back all Kiwis ect .
    Those were some ball skills this weekend No the Foot ball has everyone on the edge of there seats ka kite ano P.S my computas playing up

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