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Open Mike 08/10/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 8th, 2018 - 154 comments
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154 comments on “Open Mike 08/10/2018 ”

  1. AsleepWhileWalking 1


    The previous government, under National’s control, got the ball rolling on Nongfu Springs’ potential investment but it was signed off in June by Land Information Minister Eugenie Sage.

    The application has prompted community groups to come together and appeal the consent application.

    Whakatane resident Mawera Karetai, who has a masters in environmental studies, told Newstalk ZB not enough was known about the aquifer to be taking water out of it.

    “I have a particular interest in water and I have quite serious concerns that we don’t know enough about the aquifer,” she said.

    “We don’t know how long it takes for the aquifer to recharge, all of the reports that were generated are full of ‘ifs’ and ‘maybes’.

    “There’s a lot of information missing and a decision has still been made. I think that’s wrong.”

    • Dennis Frank 1.1

      Has the appeal by local Maori against extending the existing water-extraction right under the RMA got a result yet? I agree with her that the viability of the aquifer is the crucial issue. I doubt that scientific expertise is capable of measuring aquifers.

      • AsleepWhileWalking 1.1.1

        I don’t know but it sounds like other groups are appealing too.

        I wish we could put a stop to bottling water altogether and have little springs to refill reusable bottles everywhere.

        • Dukeofurl

          “I doubt that scientific expertise is capable of measuring aquifers”

          Very easy to do. Look up something like HB regional council. They use both observations of aquifer pressure from monitoring bores and existing wells and computer modelling for the large aquifers under Heretaunga plains around Hastings.

          HBRC operates more than 100 wells for monitoring short and long term changes in groundwater levels and quality. We monitor key water quality indicators such as nitrate-nitrogen, bacteria levels (Escherichia coli or E. coli), dissolved iron, dissolved manganese, and total hardness. That is of course what science is about.

          The reality is the actual water take at Otakiri Springs is a tiny fraction of the aquifer flow in lower Rangitaiki.

          In this instance the bottling plant has been operation without effects for some time, the application was to have a larger land area around the existing plant.

        • Dukeofurl

          “I wish we could put a stop to bottling water altogether and have little springs to refill reusable bottles everywhere.”

          Asleep , only a few places have artesian supplies. So no springs everywhere like you say.

          There is that other thing which no doubt you must use . Its called a tap from city supply.

          Artesian water that isnt used mostly flows out to sea. I HB they have hundreds of wells and marge larger quantities that the bottling plant are taken for residential and industrial use –
          The bore pressure is down compared to decades back but the water hasnt run out, but isnt of course an infinite supply.

    • soddenleaf 1.2

      Getting one group leader to signoff, selling a property right, before the real assessment of value and full community has been consulted, so historical.

      Of course Pakeha also have interests, so it’s strange that Maori groups would suggest implicitly all those historic grievances, were fine. Selling land water what’s the diff.

  2. Sanctuary 2

    Takes outs from the Kavanaugh confirmation hearings?

    I once sat as a juror on a child sex abuse trial. The evidence from the victim was powerful, compelling and left the jury a wreck and ready to convict, convict, convict. The next day, the defense demolished the crown case and the jury was left confused, and weighed down by their duties. For the record, the case then collapsed.

    The point is, I have had direct experience of where unchallenged testimony is always powerful, emotional and compelling. But mere accusation is not evidence and in a world where the law must, by definition, be rules and evidence based you cannot attack someone with merely an emotional response to a powerful story and expect to succeed beyond your partisan choir. Down that road lies nothing but trouble and anarchy.

    Therefore I think the following:

    1/ Democrats – and US liberals in general – haven’t learnt a single damn thing from the defeat of Hillary Clinton. Kavanaugh could have been crucified on his views on abortion, womans reproductive rights, the powers of an imperial president. Instead, his nomination was fought on the basis of a decades old sex assault allegation. The US Liberal elite are just as enthusiastic for endless culture wars as the right. But they always lose that fight – the Democrat poll lead that had them in the box seat for the mid terms is now under threat – https://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/poll-kavanaugh-hearing-galvanized-republicans-erasing-dem-enthusiasm-edge

    2/ The US liberal class simply won’t talk about what counts – the destruction of the US working and artisan classes, wages, the drug epidemic, the health care crisis. They’d rather inflate Russian interference into a liberal Dolchstoßlegende (the “stab in the back myth” of interway Germany) moment and line up alongside a deeply corrupt political establishment in an endless, bitter culture war.

    3/ The culture wars may have gone beyond the point of no return in the USA. That in turn points to the collapse of the current USA political system sometime in the next 20-30 years. Who knows what will happen then, although anyone who has studied the devastating Thirty Years war will know how vicious wars that seek to open windows into the soul can be.

    4/ The US constitution as imagined in the 20th century is dead. It has been powerless to stop massive corruption, authoritarian partisan politics and has given rise to an Imperial presidency which will soon, by courtesy of a stacked Supreme court, be placed above the rule of law. Erdogan’s Turkey, Orban’s Hungary, Putin’s Russia, Trump’s America. All peas in the same pod.

    5/ The only hope for the USA lies with the progressive democrats, who are willing to talk about the real issues that impact on the lives of real Americans. They may have to fight a new civil war to achieve anything – unless the US breaks up.

    • Wayne 2.1


      This sort of doom casting about the United States has been raised at various times over the last 50 years.

      The United States is not going to descend into civil war. Yes, people are passionate, but are things as roiled up as they were in the Vietnam War? I think not.

      Elections roll around every 2 years in the US. Elections change things. Trump now, who knows in just two years.

      The Constitution is not dead. It works every single day. It is why the United States is the democracy that it is. Being so hard to change provides its own protection. The United States is flawed no doubt, but it is a much better alternative to say Putin and Erdogan.

      • tc 2.1.1

        The mid terms could eliminate the republican senate edge. Paul Ryan isn’t restanding as one example as polling tells him he’s gone burger.

        Many other ‘safe’ seats are no longer under the Donald’s man child reign as the chooks roost back home and even some republicans realise he needs a counterweight.

        • alwyn

          There are a few things you may like to think about
          1. Ryan’s got 65% of the vote last election and he usually does better in the mid-terms.
          2. He was widely reported as going to quit for a long time before he actually made his announcement. Trying to get policy through for a nut like Trump was soul destroying.
          3. His going won’t have any effect on the Senate, regardless of what you might think. After all he is in the House of Representatives, not the Senate.

      • greywarshark 2.1.2

        You are merely parroting things you have always said. Appealing to your own higher authority!

        I do not see how you can consider that the USA is ‘a much better alternative’ to Putin and Erdogan. It is in the same part of the spectrum that they are in, and just shows different variables.

        • Wayne


          Pretty easy to say the US is very different to Putin’s Russia.

          A proper democracy for one. Elections make a real difference.

          Rule of law. Trump can’t go around arresting his opponents.

          Vibrant civil society. Just look at the last two weeks.

          Many different centres of political power. No one party dominates for very long.

          Free press. Even if you don’t think so.

          But I guess none of that will convince you.

          • In Vino

            Funnily enough, Wayne, many of us have lost confidence in the ridiculous, not very truly democratic (note the small d, and the real meaning) system.
            ‘Proper democracy’ as you call it? – bullshit.
            You love the superficial, don’t you?

          • greywarshark

            But Wayne a superficial look at the USA would show to the interested that much of what you have said is not true.
            Are you into truthiness?
            Just because you have listed the accepted theme for the political play du jour or de decade, doesn’t mean that you should go around quoting those lines as if they are the received wisdom of the Gods.

          • Stuart Munro

            It’s a curious thing Dahlian polyarchy – in its own way as stagnant as the worst aspects of late Confucianism. The deadlock created by the separation of powers is not fast on its feet enough to respond to real issues like declining real wages, environmental degradation, or an overcapitalized low production economy.

            Yes, it’s better than Putin’s Russia. Just not much better.

    • RedLogix 2.2

      Sanctuary. I try not to avoid doing +1’s just for the sake of it. But I’m compelled to express a very strong agreement and respect for your comment above. Especially your third para.

      Sexual crimes were traditionally considered to be of similar gravity and consequence as homicide, but were always far more difficult to prosecute by their very nature. Homicide is rare, and the victim even more rarely consents to it. By contrast non-violent sex is exceedingly commonplace and almost always consented to; it’s only the relatively rare exceptions which are of interest to the law.

      In earlier times the law more or less confined itself to dealing with the most egregious sexual offences, involving violence, gross physical coercion and obvious forensic consequences. If an investigation could uncover forensic and corroborating witnesses, a prosecution would be no more challenging than your usual homicide.

      However in recent times we’ve expanded the definition of sexual assault so that at the margins it blurs onto the wide range of relatively commonplace sexual behaviours. Very often, as with Ford, there is no forensic or corroborating evidence, and it simply comes down to a matter of credibility. Which as you say, is by itself insufficient in every sense of the word and a prosecutors nightmare.

      Worse still we know that for many reasons, not all allegations are supportable. We only have a vague idea what fraction; I’ve read people make arguments for numbers as low as 2% right up to 40%. (Don’t flame me on this, I’m agnostic on the metric.) But we do know that our legal system is floundering, and the very understandable reactions on both sides of the deal are becoming increasingly anguished and polarised.

      • Sanctuary 2.2.1

        “…However in recent times we’ve expanded the definition of sexual assault so that at the margins it blurs onto the wide range of relatively commonplace sexual behaviours…”

        Well, Ford’s claims amount to sexual assault in any era, and IMHO Kavanaugh looks and sounds like the sort of asshole entitled frat boy who might have behaved that way. However, they are *just* her claims and that is *just* my opinion of the guy and there is no actual solid additional evidence to support those two things either way, and that means we have no alternative narrative of events that may simply reduce things to the crime of being found guilty now for things that were not seen as a crime then.

        No one knows, which is why this is such a weak issue for a full blown partisan attack on the GOP/Trump’s nomination for the Supreme court.

        Attack the guy on his record, on the facts, on his rank professional unsuitability to do the job, not some some liberal “fake news” outrage around decades old allegations of personal improprieties. The first option will eventually win you the war. The second will just ensure more paralysis in bitter trench warfare.

        • RedLogix

          Well, Ford’s claims amount to sexual assault in any era,

          According to her narrative I have to agree. But work with me on this; hypothetically how hard would it be to enlarge on this story. Three kids headed up to the bedroom for some monkey business. A mix of typical teenage bravado, risk-taking, alcohol and a total unawareness of consequences. Throw in a complete lack of honest and effective communication … also a standard feature of teenage life.

          And then one of them realises a bit late she’s in deeper than she’s prepared for and tries to back out. One of the guys is focussed on taking the initiative and pushing for action (it’s what guys are expected to do) and for a few moments there’s a complete mismatch of expectation, she wants out, he thinks he’s being smart and cool. Fortunately his less involved mate intervenes and within moments it’s all over. 38 years later and everyone recalls it quite differently, if at all.

          Let me be clear, my version doesn’t represent anything like a smart or good idea. But I think all of us can relate to things we did as teenagers which were dumb ideas and in hindsight we’re only grateful we grew out of that. And most certainly when it comes to a ‘job interview’ we’d be shocked if our youthful past came back to haunt us quite so dramatically.

          To wrap this however, I don’t want to distract to far from your original brilliant comment. In some sense Andre is right, the USA has been through torrid straits in the past and survived. But the internet does amplifying things for better or worse, and the degree of manifest philosophical polarisation is fearful.

        • alwyn

          You propose that they should have
          “Attack the guy on his record, on the facts, on his rank professional unsuitability to do the job”
          The American Bar Association, in their September 7 report to Congress on the nomination gave Kavanaugh a rating of “well qualified” which is the highest rating they have.
          Can you explain why you think your opinion of his abilities is somehow superior to theirs?

          • Dukeofurl

            the ABA is looking again at Kavanaugh as they now have reason to doubt on one of the 3 criteria they evaluate : Judicial Temperament.
            he got quite rancourous when asked about his drinking habits.

            They will want to look again at his lies told.

            • Dennis Frank

              Damn right. Even putting his lies to one side, he acted like a spoilt brat at the hearings. Entitlement. Privilege. No gravitas or integrity exhibited. The ABA could easily decide that his performance changed their view of him. If they take into consideration that compilation of the evidence that he lied, they’d have a sound basis to recommend that congress impeach the turkey.

              • + 1

                Yep he showed himself to be the man he is. Poor temperament, uncontrollable anger and lying – no wonder the orange freakpimple loves him.

                • Anne

                  I’ve had a few of those freakpimples lately. I find that if you keep scratching them and make them bleed, they will eventually dry up and disappear.

                  Maybe that is the right strategy to apply to the orange freakpimple. 👿

              • greywarshark

                The road to a USA Supreme Court judge has twists and turns. i remember the story of Clarence Thomas’ accession to the thrones, which was amazing to a naive believer in the great ole’ country of law and ethical people etc. He is a black judge which was an important consideration, as bringing balance to a white-dominated line-up. Unfortunately the role model aspect for USA citizens was not served by choosing Thomas. The racial affect overwhelmed the quality and experience affect, in the decision makers minds; they definitely were not looking for the best and right candidate for Judge, and particularly wanted the continuing bias to a right-wing, Conservative viewpoint that had grown to dominance after good ole’ Ronald Reagan.

                A run-through of the background to Justice Clarence Thomas selection and the sexual harassment case that was brushed aside to enable that.

                Now, Professor Ford may testify before the Senate, in an eerie reliving of Anita Hill’s 1991 testimony on the eve of Justice Clarence Thomas’s confirmation. Hill had to recount, on a national stage, the sexual harassment that she says Thomas subjected to her while working at Department of Education and the EEOC (charged with enforcing civil rights!). Thomas, Hill testified, would call her into his office to to tell them about how he enjoyed watching pornography featuring rape scenes and an actor named Long Dong Silver.

                20 February 2018
                Former New York Times executive editor Jill Abramson has penned an op-ed that makes a case for the impeachment of US Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas.

                Her argument is not based, however, on the infamous workplace sexual harassment allegations lodged against Thomas by Anita Hill during his Supreme Court confirmation hearings in 1991, or even those brought forward by Moira Smith in October 2016.Supreme-Court-Justice-Clarence-Thomas.html

                When will it ever end and the USA tidy itself and live up to its own hype? At present this debacle shows it is deja vu, all over again.

            • alwyn

              Well no. They asked that a vote be postponed until the FBI had investigated. Well it has investigated, found, surprise, surprise, nothing and he was voted into the job.
              The ABA never changed their recommendation.

              However, and much more to the point.
              Sanctuary was arguing that they should have attacked Kavanaugh on his record and unsuitability rather than old sexual misbehaviour claims.
              If they had they would have been laughed out of the hearings given the top rating given by the ABA. There wouldn’t have been any emotional reaction from Kavanaugh either so there would have been no reason for the ABA to reconsider.

    • Andre 2.3

      1/ A large part of the early part of the hearings actually was about Kavanaugh’s views on reproductive rights, imperial presidency etc. Where Kavanaugh easily evaded saying anything remotely controversial, so it was all a bit of a yawnfest, and Kavanaugh was cruising to an easy confirmation with all Repugs and a few red state Dems voting yes. But nothing fires up passions like issues around actually having sex, on both sides, for good and bad.

      2/ You’re misrepresenting what actually is being talked about. There’s plenty going on about healthcare, opioids, hollowing out the middle class etc. Sure it gets lost in the shade a bit when there’s a high-profile lurid shitshow going on DC, but if you actually look at what the Senate, House, state and local candidates are talking about, you’ll find most are strongly focused on those issues.

      3/ Culture wars have always been a big thing, and maybe 50 of the last 3 or or 4 “points of no return” have been clear when they were actually happening. It’s going to be at least the end of 2020 before there’s any kind of real sense of whether anything has really changed.

      4/ There have been plenty of attempted imperial presidencies before now. By people considerably more competent than the combover con. So I would be very surprised if he can actually pull it off over the long term, the real damage done by stacking the courts notwithstanding.

      5/ If the US as a whole is to change course, it needs many more moderate Conor Lambs that can win in red districts than it needs Alexandria Ocasio-Cortezes that can only win in deep blue districts. And it needs the fringe to be able to go to the polling booths, swallow hard, and vote for the most progressive candidate that actually can win.

    • alwyn 2.4

      You say that
      ” Kavanaugh could have been crucified on his views on abortion, womans reproductive rights, the powers of an imperial president”.
      The problem is that you don’t really know what they are and that one can never tell until he is actually on the Supreme Court bench and a case comes up.
      Anyone appearing before a Senate Committee these days simply refuses to give their opinion on these matters.

      In Kavanaugh’s appearances he said things like.
      “During his first round of testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Kavanaugh said he views Roe v. Wade, the landmark ruling that legalized abortion nationwide, as “important precedent of the Supreme Court” that has been “reaffirmed many times.” Yet he declined to say he would not vote to reverse Roe, saying that such a vow — on any case — would violate judicial norms.”.

      Then he said
      “During his confirmation hearings, Kavanaugh declined to elaborate on his views on executive power or protections for a president who might face an investigation and subpoena.
      When Democratic Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California asked Kavanaugh if a sitting president could be compelled to respond to a subpoena, he declined to offer his views. “I can’t give you an answer on that hypothetical question,” he said.”

      He simply refused to answer such questions and to have done so would have, as I am sure any lawyer would tell you, disqualify him from hearing cases.


      If you can crucify him for his views and claim you know what they are then, as Kipling so memorably put it.
      “You’re a better man than I am Gunga Din”

      • Dukeofurl 2.4.1

        His words were just a well crafted non answer thought out before hand.

        Like Politicians when previous precedents get in the way , Scotus judges dont ‘overule’ they just pretend they dont exist


        An interesting local case involving precedent was Dotcoms extradition, a previous court of appeal case had a kiwi local avoiding extradition to US for ‘racketeering’- exactly as KDC.
        Guess what the Court just decided to ignore that precedent ( which they can do) as it didnt suit their purpose and Finlaysons pick on the career path for a future Chief Justice , Appeal Court President Kos was on that case.
        Doesnt look like Kos will get that job now that we have a new government. Elias is 69 now and retirement age is 70. boo hoo.
        Kos -2011 High Court, 2015 Appeal Court, 2016 President Appeal Court ( who decides which cases judges sit on). I think that pathway was going to be Chief Justice in 2019 ?

        • alwyn

          “His words were just a well crafted non answer thought out before hand”.
          Of course they were. Candidates who answer in anything other than generalities get into trouble so they don’t say anything significant.

          Look at what happened to Robert Bork who actually seemed well qualified but was attacked by the Democrats. He really did answer all the questions. Opposing Senators didn’t care. They were going to oppose anyone at all who Reagan nominated.
          ” Senate Democrats had asked liberal leaders to form a “solid phalanx” to oppose an “ideological extremist” replacement to Powell”.

          It doesn’t change my argument of course. We have absolutely no way of really knowing what Kavanaugh’s views are and we won’t until he starts making them from the Supreme Court bench..

          • Dukeofurl

            Didnt Reagan nominate someone else, so what was your point.

            What about Obamas Merrick Garland who the republicans opposed no matter what ?

            • alwyn

              My point is, and I thought I made it abundantly clear, is that since Bork got done over, nominees hoping to get appointed DON’T say anything other than to give non-answers.

              Garland never even got a hearing. That stank. To not even give him a hearing was merely taking the partisanship one step further than it had been over the last 40 years.
              Appointments to the Supreme Court have been getting more bitterly party political since about 1970. Prior to that the appointees generally got through fairly cleanly. There were occasional exceptions like Abe Fortas but he was a pretty iffy, and sniffy, specimen when Johnson put him up for Chief Justice.

    • Gosman 2.5

      The idea of a new civil war in the US is ridiculous. the circumstances that lead to the initial civil war in the States were unique and rooted in the historical tension in the distribution of political power between the Northern and Southern States which the expansion of the the US to the West exacerbated. The Southern States did not wish to be dominated by the more populous and industrialised North. Hence why they broke away. There is no indication that significant elements of the US feel the need to break away.

      • RedLogix 2.5.1

        Only if you constrain your analysis to territorial concerns. But Ad didn’t draw a comparison on that basis; he pointed instead to the Thirty Year War driven by deep philosophical (theological even) differences:


        Prior to WW1 it was probably the most bloody conflict in human history, and the lesson the West derived it still informs our instincts around the separation of church and state to this day.

        • Gosman

          Even the Thirty years war had territorial concerns. The political struggles could not have occurred without the various nations and semi-independent political entities taking sides. It is why the majority Protestant nations are concentrated in the Northern parts of Europe and the majority Catholic nations in the South.

      • Dukeofurl 2.5.2

        It was a balance of power thing as well. They were careful to admit territories as new states to maintain the balance of slave states and free states.

        The underlying reasons there were that each state had 2 senators . Much as its is now the balance of senators decides things.

        Example after the civil war was the Dakota territory which was split into 2 states with 4 instead of 2 senators as an example of the then Ruling republicans increasing their power in senate.

        Not really any more territories to admit as states – unless Washington DC which has similar population as the smallest states – Vermont and Wyoming are smaller.
        Puerto Rico and Samoa Territories have other difficulties.

        The Presidential electoral college is an absurd thing but unlikely the small states will allow changes, but one better balalncing change is electoral votes only on the numbers of congresspersons , not like it is now Senators and Congresspersons. As every state has 2 senators no matter what while every state has minimum of 1 congressperson ( 7 states) and are fairly well balanced by population for the rest.

        What would happen if there is major event like an assassination attempt on Trump and his family ?
        If Trump survived he would change the definition of ‘unhinged’

    • cleangreen 2.6

      Agreed with this view here sanctuary up on (2) 100%

      The Senate and President Trump must indict George Soros for his activities to change the voting in our elections using his “ill gotten money” but his cabal is denying any wrongdoing. – Surprise suprise!!!.



    • McFlock 2.7

      Regarding 1/, the repugs care less about reproductive rights than they do about sexual assault allegations.

    • Dukeofurl 2.8

      Kavanaugh wasnt accused of a crime he was doing a ‘job interview’

      The things that occur at a trial didnt happen here, he wasnt aquitted or convicted. If voted down he would have gone back to his existing job, like other job applicants would do.

  3. Ad 3

    Great cartoon in the NZHerald today:

    Squillionaire rocks up to airport customs Kiwi Values Test, goes “I’m just an unassuming billionaire with plans to build an apocalypse proof bolt-hole for myself and my cronies.”

    “That’s zero out of five for egalitarianism………

    …… which luckily hasn’t been a kiwi value since the 80s.”

    Funny because it’s TRUE and sad.

  4. SaveNZ 4

    More stealing of our harbour for corporate gain…

    Not only that, cruise ships are exempt from the ‘conservation tourist’ tax of a pathetic $35 and are highly polluting in every way.

    Last day today to oppose in submissions, although completely understand many don’t bother anymore due to being ignored repeatedly in public submissions from Supercity to unity plan – Auckland council have trained people that public submissions are a waste of time because you will be ignored!


    From ‘stop stealing our harbour’

    “Our reasons for objecting to the proposed ‘dolphins’ are:

    An unnecessary 90 metre extension into the Waitemata Harbour from Queens Wharf into the busiest and most publically significant part of the harbour – something current political leaders including government Ministers, all opposed at the last election.

    Queens Wharf was purchased by the Auckland Council and the Government to be our premier waterfront space, our marae atea, connecting the city with the harbour – berthing the oversized vessels on Queens Wharf industrialises and commercialises the “Peoples Wharf”.

    Queens Wharf is a Cat-1 listed Heritage place, including the views to and from the end of the wharf. The mooring buoys and gangway will severely impact these features. A 35 year consent is not for a temporary facility as alleged. “There is nothing more permanent than a temporary structure.”

    The extension of Queens Wharf with concrete 15m x 15m mooring structures and gangways is an ad-hoc, inappropriate solution to allow mega-cruise ships to dock 3 to7 days only a year. It is not aligned with Council’s long-term waterfront planning objectives as underway in the Central Wharves Strategy that propose Captain Cooks wharf as the prime cruise ship berth.

    We believe the Market Economics economic report used as justification for extending Queens Wharf has used exaggerated revenue figures and does not use Cost Benefit Analysis methodology correctly.

    We believe alternative arrangements for these mega-ships should be managed within the existing Port, as the Queen Mary 2 has been accommodated previously.”

  5. SaveNZ 5

    Air quality on cruise ship deck ‘worse than world’s most polluted cities’, investigation finds
    ‘Each day a cruise ship emits as much particulate matter as a million cars’

    “Speaking to the Dispatches team, Daniel Rieger, of the German environment association NABU (Nature And Biodiversity Conservation Union), said: “Ships cause not only greenhouse gas emissions, but also sulphur oxides, nitrogen oxides and particulate matter.

    “Per day one cruise ship emits as much particulate matter as a million cars. So 30 cruise ships pollute as much as all the cars in the United Kingdom.”


    • Dukeofurl 5.1

      Dont they only have generators running in port , not the huge engines driving propellers ?
      I think as well they are considering Princes Wharf to get mains power connections for Cruise ships ?


      cant see how POAL wants others to pay for it.!

      • SaveNZ 5.1.1

        Crazy, POA is ‘supposed’ to be owned by the ratepayers but through various COO structures answers to no-one, kills employees, and now they (aka ratepayers) are paying for their reports into paying to do the research into ‘helping’ the polluting cruise ships… ahh shouldn’t the polluting cruise ships be paying for their own feasibility studies, nope because they don’t actually care…

        Here’s a hint, get rid of the cruise ships – then we don’t have the emissions or the negative noise, biohazards etc… and be a clean, green city.

        From their own report as linked by Dukeofurl above…

        “The environmental impact of emissions from berthed vessels is a significant challenge faced by city ports worldwide. To understand the range of technologies available for mitigating these, POAL engaged WorleyParsons/Advisian to complete a feasibility study. This sought to investigate options for reducing noise, pollutant and greenhouse gas emissions from berthed cruise vessels and determine the preferred solution(s) using a triple bottom line approach.
        The study reflects the POAL sustainability commitment and represents a proactive step to assist in reducing emissions within the Auckland airshed. It also follows growing global trends to address shipping emissions, such as incentive schemes and MARPOAL Annex VI regulations.
        At berth, cruise ships run generators to provide electrical power for on-board amenities, typically fuelled with high sulphur, heavy fuel oil (HFO). In addition to the noise impacts, considering the terminal’s central city setting, studies have highlighted direct correlations between some of the emission components and adverse public health outcomes.”

        • Dukeofurl

          Its a port. Ships use fuel, just like cars and trucks.
          Airports have planes which burn their fuel too.

          To my mind the fuel burnt in port is a fraction of that while at sea.

          • SaveNZ

            Nope, apparently one day of a cruise ship can burn more particulate material than a million cars. They are MASSIVE polluters, much less efficient that air travel and at least air ports are away from the public most of the time.

      • joe90 5.1.2

        Eventually operators will only call at ports that offer shore power so best POA get cracking.


        • SaveNZ

          Yep but that comes with massive pollution to everyone else in Auckland – they are worse polluters than even container ships and it’s heavy metals and lots of nasty stuff.

          I can’t work out why when we have a ‘Green’ government that are so keen to get everyone walking and cycling at great costs (aka petrol taxes) yet somehow burning a million cars worth of particulate matter a day for big business is actively encouraged and dumping massive sewerage and biohazards not to mention the sweat shop labour and disruption to the environment and taking public space away, is not worthy of their interest…

  6. AsleepWhileWalking 6

    If I could afford an egolf I’d be quite happy living in a garage, not being suffocated by high petrol costs.

    Four year supply gap and we’re just beginning…

  7. SaveNZ 7

    The world’s largest cruise ship and its supersized pollution problem


    Even ‘Green’ Cruise Ships Are Polluting the Earth at Incredible Rates

    Cruise ships dump 1 billion gallons of sewage into the ocean every year

    Cruise liner crews slave below decks
    Passengers enjoy luxury on the high seas, but a new study reveals the misery of those who serve them


    • Ankerrawshark 7.1

      Thanks for posting the article about exploitation of cruise ship workers save NZ. My husband volunteers for mission to seaman and they have just re-started cruise ship visits, he has distributed the article to his colleagues

    • cleangreen 7.2


      Good articles here, we often wondered what the air quality was like on those secluded cabins, as our family travelled from Southampton to “Port Everglades” (Ft Lauderdale) on the Camberra in 1987 and us two males got some type of poisoning during the 7 day cruise.

      They failed to really find the cause then, – uummmmm.

      • Dukeofurl 7.2.1

        Food poisoning especially norovirus- endemic on cruise ships and passenger ships.

  8. SaveNZ 8

    I guess in relation to AD comments

    ” egalitarianism………

    …… which luckily hasn’t been a kiwi value since the 80s.””

    totally on point.

    Sad that our public spaces are being decimated so that polluting industries can prosper – aka the cruise ship industry stealing the harbour with the Auckland council cheering it on (oh and don’t forget we have America’s cup full speed ahead)

    Yep, why allow the ratepayers and residents the right to have decent public space which they pay for, when instead we can pollute the air, water and sea life with more cruise ships instead…

    Yesterday a great link about a similar case of NZ grabbing the dollar at the expense of the environment and locals and an endangered species and conservation and air and water quality, with loads of wonderful economic figures to justify it. But all lies, instead 400 million of debt and the negative impacts in every direction.


    yep, egalitarian is not just dead, but worse than that, neoliberalism has also found new ways to make the less powerful subsidise and pay their costs…

  9. Sanctuary 9

    In other news, I see Labour is preparing the spectacularly mis-manage the politics of rising petrol prices by doing and saying absolutely nothing until the public rises in open revolt and blames them.

    Neo-liberal left. Utterly useless.

    • ScottGN 9.1

      Do you think the government is trying to have it both ways? High enough prices to drive behaviour changes and shift people from cars to other forms of transit and/or e- vehicles but not so high as to bring about a voter rebellion. I’ll bet they’re polling like crazy on this one…?

      • Dukeofurl 9.1.1

        The rising US dollar plus the rising crude oil prices are responsible.

        Outside Auckland less than 4c is from Government action.

        Against the Aussie dollar we are much the same Oct17 92c Oct18 91c.

        Typical rightwing economic bullshit. wouldnt know an exchange rate from a bitcoin.
        Watch Hosking fall into the same hole…..its the gumint

        • ScottGN

          Outside Auckland the current excise duties amount to about 70 cents per litre. And then, of course, GST is levied on top of that, including about 10 cents GST levied on the excise duties themselves, so a tax on a tax. In Auckland you can add the extra 10 cents Regional Fuel Tax and, of course, the GST on that.

          So while the most recent price increases can be ascribed to currency exchange and US foreign policy and crude supply etc there is still considerable scope for public unrest at what they see as government revenue gathering.

          I’m living at Auckland’s West Coast at the moment and I’m starting to think I should get one of Twyford’s LRT carriages named after me, given the contributions I’m making…

          • Dukeofurl

            Was there wild unrest for the price of petrol when national increased

            GST from 12.5 to 15% ? That pushed petrol up

            They added extra excise of 9c plus GST ( decision was announced a week before Xmas in 2012 but not flagged in previous election like all their tax increases …no siree)

            • ScottGN

              No there wasn’t which was due in large part to the political management of the increase to GST which just reinforces Santuary’s original point.

              • Dukeofurl

                So national is being hyprocrites now since Bridges had previously voted to increase GST and voted to increase fuel excise tax + GST by over 10c a litre.

                But its all good because of management ?

                Like to know how you manage the US dollar rising ?

                Like to know how you manage the rising crude price ( in US dollars)

    • Graeme 9.2

      But what can the givernment, if either stripe do?

      Reduce the tax component? Well that would have to come from somewhere else or no roads or congested roads.

      Engineer a rise in NZD? That would tank export sectors and drive up interest rates, fast.

      Or the Venesuela / Muldoonist option of subsidising fuel. We know how that would pan out.

      Oil has been up around USD100 before and we didn’t die, probably would have been a lot better off if it had stayed there. The reason for the current spike is the war between US and China.

      We can’t do much about that.

      • Sanctuary 9.2.1

        Two things off the top of my head:

        Signal that if petrol hits a certain price it will immediately fund full fare relief on PT for commuters;


        It could announce the electrification of government vehicle fleets wherever practicable

        • ScottGN

          Even better if they announced that they’ll no longer add GST to the excise portion of fuel prices. There’s a 10 cent per litre drop right there, the impact of which is offset for the government by higher GST on the core price of fuel as prices rise anyway.

          • Graeme

            That would be the obvious move if it was reasonably fiscally neutral, and didn’t open up a huge can of worms in other areas.

            I can remember the sales tax regime pre gst and it wasn’t pretty. We’d want to be careful we didn’t go back there bu opening up exemptions.

        • gsays

          ..and double the road user charges on trucks that carry more than 10 tonnes…
          Sure your purchases from Amazon or Ali baba will cost more and may take longer…
          Also supermarket prices will rise – so no downside.

          Once the big trucks are off the road, the maintenance bill shrinks to negligible, freeing up money for public transport.

          • Dukeofurl

            Charges are stepped so a small truck like 10tons pays a lot less than a super heavy 60 tonner.

            Big trucks off road ? Forget any food in supermarkets or goods to factories . Its a stupid idea.

            • gsays

              So duke, here in Aotearoa, countdown truck all meat to Auckland, process it, then truck it back to hubs, then move it to individual supermarkets.

              If you are advocating for that, there lies the stupidity.

              As for goods to factories, we have a train set to move stuff.

  10. esoteric pineapples 10

    Bernie Sanders speech on Kavanaugh becoming a Supreme Court judge.


  11. Mental Health Awareness Week.

    Listen a bit more.
    Be in the moment with people you love a bit more
    Connect with nature a bit more

    Lots of things happening around the country – be part of the awareness and activities.


  12. Sometimes it’s hard to hold the dialectic

    On one hand – I am vegetarian for 36 years. Originally because I couldn’t stand the animal suffering involved. I think we treat most animals terribly, as commodities, as things. We dont treat them with respect as living entities imo. This disconnect leads to many societal woes. If we treat animals with no regard, we treat people the same. Our society is insensitive and glorifies violence. I see a direct connection to the ills of society and how we treat vulnerable people and how we treat animals.

    I also think pests have to be killed.


    • veutoviper 12.1

      I feel quite sick after just seeing the pictures. Couldn’t bring myself to read the rest properly. Yes, pests have to be killed but the lack of respect etc …

      I am not vegetarian but eat very little meat these days and have many friends etc who are or who are vegan and highly respect their rights to be – and am quite good at vegetarian/vegan cooking. I was also involved in animal welfare organisations for many decades on a voluntary basis.

      Funny enough I saw this yesterday when I checked out Felix’s tweets to see whether he had tweeted about the Matthew Blomfield/Cameron Slater defamation trial which starts in Auckland today, and immediately thought of you!

      “Felix Geiringer @BarristerNZ Aug 24

      *Me teasing Mr 6*
      Partner: You’ll give him a nervous breakdown.
      Mr 3 (a vegetarian): Is there meat in a nervous breakdown?
      Partner: No.
      Mr 3: Can I have one too?”

      • marty mars 12.1.1

        😊 I find everyone eats the vegetarian pizzas first but my view could be slanted.

        • veutoviper

          They do – and it is not just pizzas, its anything!

          When I used to ‘entertain’ a lot and arrange food for animal welfare events, my rule was that vegetarians/vegans got first – and second – dibs on that food, and only when they had had their fill, did others get access to the leftovers.
          AND I used to do/order at least double the amount of vege/vegan offerings relative to the numbers of vege/vegan people, compared to non-vege food/people.

      • veutoviper 12.1.2

        Ooopps – only just realised from your 11 that it is Mental Health Awareness Week.

        Above tweet, and my posting/quoting it is in no way meant to belittle mental health – my position is quite the opposite – but did think it quite funny from a 3 year old. I actually have a niece who has been vegetarian from the time she went onto solids and would not eat anything with meat or fish in it.

  13. Adrian 13

    Bullshit to Bridges on fuel prices. I filled up the truck in Blenheim last week and bloody diesel was $1.81. I’ve have been away for 3 months and when I left it was in the $1.40s. That’s not TAX, thats fucking opportunism.
    The Auckland tax does not apply here BTW. But Bullshit Bridges is trying to convince the rest of the country that it is Labour Govt charges.

  14. greywarshark 14

    These are deep problems which I am beginning to think we can not overcome in time to prepare for the decimation of our society and land from climate change. We are linear thinking, narrow, conservative, and unreasonably large in positive myths about NZ character and leadership, from successes that have been brought about by other motivations rather than the vaunted one (womens suffrage was so they could limit the out-of-control alcohol intake of the men for instance, not so that women as a whole could have more respect and not be villified usually for their sexuality). MMP was the result of an off-the-cuff comment caught on television if I remember rightly.

    It’s no wonder we cannot get anything done that is good for the mass of the people, we don’t care two hoots about them. We choose to gloss over the reality of our poverty in NZ in living standards, we blame the poor and strugglers, they are deficient therefore it isn’t our problem, so we are not vocal and supportive to back money and action for a happy, working country with busy employed people. We have a pathetic lack of vigour when it comes to thinking about what we deserve for ourselves in our country, always wanting what they have overseas, wanting money from lower taxes at the cost of public services.

    We need to limit time spent watching tv screens and bullshit artists on all media, tablets, social media, cellphones, and put that time into thinking and working and face-to-face activities that will build resilient communities who live simpler, poorer lives that look to self-sufficiency. This period is like the time between the world wars, the 1920s and 1930s when the devil and evil were brewing but everybody was either looking for a good time, or just time spent trying to live through the Great Depression. Think about it, see the similarities now.

    • cleangreen 14.1

      Yes greywarshark,

      This period is very much like when the last messiah approached our lives pre world war two (Hitler and his propaganda machine Joseph Goebbels to stir up our population into a frenzy and preparing them for another second war then.

      We should look very carefully at the funder of all these groups that are being funded now as Goebbels arranged to get hitlers base started then beginning with George Soros, as he is a self confessed Nazi himself.

      Here is has activities now funding almost all groups on the left sadly they are taking the bait, so is he preparing us for the third war war? he was center stage out of the blocks accusing Russia .


      • greywarshark 14.1.1

        I won’t get centred on George Soros cleangreen as there are many really wealthy people out there who have lost touch with the real world and become malign. And the sort of real world I mention is one that has people who care about other people having lives, security, behaviour standards, and some joy in life.

        I think there are many George Soros’. I think be aware of them, and look for positives to do for now, helping oneself and neighbours, our country and trying to protect ourself against Australia. Their latest disgrace is manipulating poor little Nauru to the stage where they have given Medecin Sans Frontiere spelling?, the push.

        Try to keep cheered up cg. And watch some happy tv, and choose a book that has a positive ending. I have been reading The Long War by Pratchett and Baxter and it is wearying, but it is interesting. I have others thank goodness.

        • joe90

          Dude parrots the far right’s antisemitic hate speech. Fuck him.

          • greywarshark

            I noticed you feeling rather strongly about him joe 90. Didn’t know what set it off. There are so many things and people who can be faulted these days.
            I know though I can count on you to keep putting up useful links. Thanks.

            • Andre

              greywarshark, what do you think the appropriate response to cleangreen’s repeated antisemitic Soros smears should be?

              There’s plenty of evidence that Soros is simply what he appears to be on the surface: a jewish survivor of the Nazis who is now putting part of his good fortune to work trying to reduce the worldwide mistreatment of vulnerable people. Yes, he did a few dubious things on the way to that fortune (what immensely wealthy person hasn’t?), but there’s no evidence he’s now participating in some kind of shadowy global conspiracy.

              In contrast, the malignant smears that cleangreen propagates seem to come from alt-right hate groups, with no basis in reality.


          • veutoviper

            Its Mental Health Awareness Week joe90 and Andre. Mental Health includes aging conditions such as dementia and Alzheimers and there are a few here who are going down those roads who are losing certain abilities to see what they are condoning, advocating etc. Hard as it is (and I am part Jewish), probably the best response is really just to ignore and not respond or react. kia kaha

            • joe90

              I have first hand experience with both vascular dementia and Alzheimers and unless they’re expressing firm, long held held beliefs sufferers don’t suddenly take to the interwebs and parrot extreme right hate speech.

              At best your defence of CG is benignly deluded and at worst, you’re an apologist for a malignant anti-Semite.

            • Andre

              There’s likely to be people reading this site that may take the smears cleangreen is repeating at face value and not go digging further. Are you seriously suggesting that that kind of vicious shit be left unchallenged, simply because it’s being posted by someone that may be suffering age-related mental decline? If yes, then what other vile shit should just be ignored and not responded or reacted to?

              vv, previously you said you assumed I didn’t have anyone close suffering from those kinds of age-related disabilties. As it happens, both my parents are going through some of that kind of age-related decline. My experience has been the only way to “get through” is immediate feedback every time, in somewhat stronger terms than I would have used ten or even five years ago.

      • Dennis Frank 14.1.2

        You a making a big mistake recycling that fake claim without doing the necessary research. The actual history is available here: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/george-soros-ss-nazi-germany/

        He was nine years old when the war started. At the end of WWII he was 14. The entry age of the SS was 17. He cannot possibly have become a member!

        Secondly, that photo purporting to be him as a young man in the SS uniform has been sourced. Snopes tells us who it actually is. The campaign to discredit Soros because he uses his money to help leftist causes is a deliberate repetition of the methods used historically by both nazis & communists. You ought not to allow yourself to be suckered by it!

        I mean really, how can you believe that he’d openly disclose helping his caregiver when he was a kid if he was really guilty? Of course he would have kept quiet about it. He obviously had no idea about the job his caregiver was doing or the political implications of that. What kid would?? Add to that the fact that his father parked him with the caregiver to keep him safe, and the strategy obviously worked: “young George’s temporary protector (a Hungarian bureaucrat named Baumbach) was taking inventory of Jewish properties already confiscated by the Nazis”.

        “George’s father, Tivadar Soros, provided a similar account of the incident in his 1965 autobiography, Masquerade: Dancing Around Death in Nazi Occupied Hungary”. “The following week the kind-hearted Baufluss, in an effort to cheer the unhappy lad up, took him off with him to the provinces. At the time he was working in Transdanubia, west of Budapest, on the model estate of a Jewish aristocrat, Baron Moric Kornfeld. There they were wined and dined by what was left of the staff.” He was only there three days!

        Instead of reporting the actual history of Soros, the right-wing conspiracy theorists have deliberately created a false version to destroy his reputation, and they have used the traditional method of faking evidence to support it.

  15. greywarshark 15

    Wellington bus network: Consultant defends original scheme
    10:32 am today

    The American transport consultant behind Wellington’s new bus network blames the capital’s bus chaos on the implementation not the design.

    Sounds like Roger Douglas’ theme when he talks about our economy.!

    • ScottGN 15.1

      I’ve been following Jarret Walker via his blog humantransit.org for sometime grewwarshark. It’s worth a read for some context around the debacle that’s unfolded in Wellington.
      And worth pointing out too that the rollout of the hub-based bus systems in Auckland and loads of other cities in North America, Asia Pacific and elsewhere has been pretty good overall.


      • greywarshark 15.1.1

        I can see that Walker has many issues with Louisson’s report. So I think it would be important for Louisson to deal with those separately with him.

        You say that hub-based systems have been put in elsewhere. Being pretty good overall sounds a fishy measure of success and passenger satisfaction.

        In the meantime perhaps Simon Louisson can keep looking at what is happening in Wellington with the buses and passengers finding ways of serving the routes needed. The background to the design and what is actually behind the changes is always interesting. There is one quote in the link below that the previous transport system was not going to be suitable for future years. That would stand being more detailed. Here is earlier link to report on The Standard.

        Wellington bus debacle deeply damaging to Govt’s transport policy

    • OnceWasTim 15.2

      Thanks for the link. It’ll be interesting reading.
      Without reading it, I’d say (as do a lot of other bus users) that there are problems both with design and implementation. As to whether that is the consultant’s fault is another issue.
      Usually when undertaking a major project such as this, the USER requirements are identified first. One problem maybe GWRC’s understanding just who that USER is.
      It appears that they nconsider themselves as the user whereas it should be the bus users (patrons). Anyone will tell you that there was inadequate consultation with them despite the spin now emerging.
      As such it looks like the starting point was looking at a map and trying to cover territory RATHER than determining where if was people actually wanted to go and from where (e.g. in Wellington, from the various burbs to the ‘golden mile’, universities and the regional hospital); AND what would be a reasonable transfer system (e.g. those from the Kapiti Coast or the Hutt Valley might reasonably be expected to transfer, WHEREAS someone from the south coast of Wellington should not be expected to have to transfer twice – i.e. 3 buses – to get to their destination.
      THEN there’s the implementation which did not have to be ‘big bang’ unless GWRC prioritised trying to simplify bringing in new contracts, or disposing of existing services (along with overheads , etc.) OVER the requirements of the travelling public.
      The designer may well have had successes elsewhere (Seattle maybe for example), however if he was given a pile of shit and assumptions to work with based on shoddy data, he’d have been at a disadvantage from the start.

      Listening to the guy this morning, he did sound a little defensive, but he may well have reason to be. When this bugger’s muddle is over, there’ll be enough blame to share around.

  16. greywarshark 16

    Are these two the essential NZ spirit?

    Dame Lynda: ‘There’s been a lot of farmers trying to curtsey’
    8:55 am today

    Musical comedy duo The Topp Twins will celebrate their new status as dames at an investiture ceremony in Auckland today.

  17. greywarshark 17

    Politics health
    7 Oct 2018
    Presbyterian Church disagrees with euthanasia bill
    11:03 am on 7 October 2018

    The Presbyterian Church has come out against euthanasia in its biannual meeting, saying it is too dangerous for public safety in the long term.


    Sounds like the Health and Safety Reactionary Brigade should be the ones to decide on this weighty problem. Not surprising that religious institutions can’t allow people to think for themselves, we are the sheep and they are the shepherds. Baaa.

    • adam 17.1

      This might just be a bit hard for you greywarshar, but the Presbyterian Church listened to it’s congregation, before making this announcement. So on this one, you’re absolutely wrong, and your prejudice is showing.

      But then again how else to get your rotten law through, without lying about, and abusing those who oppose it.

      • greywarshark 17.1.1

        The Presbyterian Church and all who sail in her, have not got the right to abuse everyone and deny everyone, and I object to being called a liar – those in churches are not encouraged to think for themselves – I think that is almost an absolute truth. Submit to the teachings is the requirement as a rule. And it is not a rotten law, it is just the receptors in your brain are set on one line and cannot see any other point of view. You don’t care about others who can and ask for the country’s laws to set up a system that can be followed so they can go when they wish. And it would be to a kinder place than this one where I can be called a liar and abused.

        • adam

          The poor me routine response.

          Oh dear, really.

          You called people sheep, and unthinking then get all huffy when someone calls you on your B.S.

          Funny, if it was not so sad.

          Really a rotten law designed to disadvantage the vulnerable, maybe you want to read it, or at the least have a look at how badly it’s written as it stands.

          As for you ACT party propaganda – turn it down a notch ah – this is a site dedicated to the interest of the labour movement.

          • greywarshark

            You are so disgusting in your attitudes and comments. Not worth replying to. And calling me ACT. I have been commenting for a decade? here and you are just a new and wilfully ignorant superior-thinking smartarse who wants to dominate the discourse here with multiple opinions.

        • Gabby

          They’re worried you might request being offed in a moment of weakness greysie. They’ve heard tales of Belgian doctors putting demented old ladies down forcibly despite their last minute change of heart. I’d be a bit worried some kind hearted meddler would make the decision on my behalf.

          • greywarshark

            That was what the law is about. To enable us to make the decisions that we want. It is part of our life process to die. It would be good if we could make the decision ourselves, when we are capable of deciding and have had as much help as can be achieved.

  18. greywarshark 18

    Here are some NZ things to talk about. The USA can manage its affairs for a short time without our input I think. We need to look at our own, as i don’t think we will get much time to manage ours without their input.

    1 Oct 2018
    Marama Davidson: Get Work and Income out of people’s personal lives
    8:56 am on 1 October 2018

    Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson says there has never been a better opportunity to transform a punitive and limiting culture of the welfare system.

  19. greywarshark 19

    6:15 am today

    Revelations govt invited foreign water bottlers to NZ
    From Morning Report, 6:15 am today
    Listen duration 3′ :16″

    Anti-water bottling campaigners are gobsmacked by revelations government officials were actively encouraging foreign bottlers to set up in New Zealand. New Zealand Trade and Enterprise has confirmed that in 2015 it contacted the Chinese bottling giant Nongfu Spring and similar companies around the world about potentially investing in local water businesses. Earlier this year, Nongfu Spring was given approval to expand its Otakiri Springs water bottling plant near Whakatane with the aim of exporting more than one billion litres of water a year.

    What can one say about this??

    • Dennis Frank 19.1

      We can let NZTE speak for themselves: “New Zealand Trade and Enterprise (NZTE) is the Government agency charged with … one single purpose: growing companies internationally, bigger, better and faster, for the benefit of New Zealand. We employ 600 people, have over 200 private sector partners and draw on a global network of thousands more. We have people based in 50 offices, working across 24 time zones and 40 languages to support New Zealand businesses in over 100 countries.”

      We can therefore say that our public service is using the capitalist system to help kiwi businesses export goods. A public/private partnership model. Govt gets a share of these enterprises via tax. Who knows how much? Given that foreign trade enables our current standard of living, who would condemn such behaviour?

      Okay, so much for the general scenario. With regard to aquifer depletion, I’d condemn it real fast – unless the extraction can be shown to be sustainable.

  20. adam 20


    Another person dies from going to work.



    How many is that on our Waterfront this year? I’m thinking 3 at least, could be more.

    This is utterly unacceptable.

    But hey, trump is probably saying somthing silly – go over to that distraction.

      • adam 20.1.1

        That not a very helpful website joe90, I’m not 100% sure, but didn’t one of the construction deaths happened on the waterfront?

        • SaveNZ

          @ Adam, Someone died last month after accident at Ports of Auckland.

          Laboom Midnight Dyer, 23, suffered critical injuries from the accident on August 27. He was taken to Auckland City Hospital but died from his injuries on September 3.


          A few days ago they also had an inferno and worker rushed to hospital with burns.

          Worker in hospital after port inferno
          A machinery operator has been taken to hospital with burn injuries after a large fire broke out at the Ports of Auckland.
          Plumes of black smoke could be seen billowing across the city, including the North Shore, from the blaze this morning.


          They also have been fined for illegal actions against it’s workers.

          Ports of Auckland fined $40,000 for illegal actions against its workforce

        • adam

          Just re-read what I wrote – by “not helpful” in that the industries which the fatalities have occured seems to muddy the picture, not make it clearer.

          I’d hazard a guess and say some Tory muppet made damn sure that it was not clear web page.

          • McFlock

            Why are the industries not reasonable? They seem to be pretty standard classifications.

            • adam

              18/07/2018 Construction 57 Auckland Heavy vehicle rolled on to victim

              I’m pretty sure that happened on the wharf. A construction site on the wharf. Now would it not been better to make that clearer?

              Or this one

              15/12/2017 Arts and Recreation Services 74 Otago Drowned while recovering drifting boat.

              So he was working? Did it happen at wharf, in the harbour, or out to sea?

              That said, I agree some are clear. But some do leave room wiggle room for employers. Which I personally don’t think we need in workplace deaths

              • McFlock

                your pretty sure might be off. You sure you’re not thinking of the straddle crane overturn a few lines up?

                Is the object of interest which locations are more dangerous, or which industries?

                If it’s a construction site on the wharf, it’s the construction operator in direct control, rather than the ports company. Arts and rec services, same deal.

                The timeframe on the worksafe site is basically the reports with a summary of what seemed to have happened when the report was made. Whether the summaries are updated when investigations are resolved is another matter.

                • adam

                  Yeah OK, but one death was construction was on the wharf here in Auckland. And not not the one you’re mentioning.

                  I got the one I guessed wrong – but kinda proves my point – as you just have to guess where these happened and what company is responsible.

                  • McFlock

                    There aren’t that many deaths in Auckland so far this year. I count 5. None match what you’re talking about.

                    Either way, what exactly are you looking for – an itemised list of all workplace deaths, identifying individuals, companies, locations, dates, and investigation outcomes? That’s not what this dataset is for. Most of the deaths this year wouldn’t even have completed the investigative processes yet. And it would be unfair naming&shaming companies and workers on the face of it, when impartial investigation might find other causes.

                    Each of the cases for Auckland brought up the media reports that detailed the projects and often employers at the time. But then fault wasn’t established.

                    And what would you use the list for?

                    • adam

                      Did you see the list went back to 2013? Are they all on going investigations?

                      And yes, I do want to name and shame. Why do you want to protect bosses?

                    • McFlock

                      OK, so maybe a third of the cases could well still be unresolved (some can be unresolved for ten years, thinking of one case).

                      When you name and shame the companies, do you anticipate consulting the bereaved families first, or would you prefer to just exploit their grief for your political ends?

                      Helen Kelly worked with the families, she didn’t just wield a database. This is union work, not fodder for interweb exploitation.

  21. veutoviper 21

    This is two in just a few days, as there was also this death at a Kawarau sawmill just on Friday last week (5 Oct). Not on the Waterfront but again wood/logs related. Also both women.


    • veutoviper 21.1

      Oops – too late but that was meant to be a reply to 20 and 20.1

    • adam 21.2

      The wood/log industry just keeps killing it workforce.

      Something fundamental needs to change right across the whole chain of this industry.

      • SaveNZ 21.2.1

        Also places like Ports of Auckland, seem to have a lot of accidents and deaths… funny how they also were prosecuted for illegal work place practices too.

        Seems to be spreading because a swimmer was killed by ferries in the harbour too recently.

        Too many boats – time they moved the ports out of Auckland and get rid of the congestion and pollution too it creates.

        Happy for Northland to get ‘the money’ because when you work out how much public money is spend on corporate welfare, the corporate welfare is better spent of attracting more sustainable and less polluting work into the area, especially with the amount of people now living nearby.

        There is already a technical hub for example on Auckland waterfront.

        • adam

          The fact they drive it across town before they distribute it, makes Auckland bad as well. Funny enough, if they brought down by train from Northland, it would have the added bonus of decongesting the roads in Auckland.

  22. joe90 22

    The 44th journalist to die this year.

    Berlin, October 7, 2018–The Committee to Protect Journalists calls on the Bulgarian authorities to conduct a rigorous, thorough investigation into the killing of Victoria Marinova, presenter and administrative director for local television channel TVN. Marinova, 30, was found dead yesterday in the Bulgarian town of Ruse, 300 km (185 miles) northeast of the capital Sofia; she had been raped, beaten, and strangled, according to media reports that cited Bulgarian police.


    Marinova’s last broadcast was an interview with Romanian journalist Attila Biro from the investigative news site Rise Project and his Bulgarian counterpart, Dimitar Stoyanov, from investigative news site Bivol, who were looking into allegations of fraud involving EU funds for the global investigative reporting platform Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project (OCCRP), Bulgarian news site Terminal 3 reported. The two reporters were detained by Bulgarian police in September, CPJ reported.


    • adam 22.1

      That murder is way beyond creepy, it has a real feel of deterrence to it.

      • joe90 22.1.1

        The alleged murder of Jamal Khashoggi is up there, too.

        Turkish authorities suspect that missing Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi, who disappeared on Tuesday after entering Saudi Arabia’s consulate in Istanbul, was killed inside the consulate, Turkish sources told Middle East Eye and news agencies on Saturday.

        A senior Turkish police source told MEE that police believed that Khashoggi, a prominent critic of the Saudi government, was “brutally tortured, killed and cut into pieces” inside the consulate after visiting the building on 2 October.

        “Everything was videotaped to prove the mission had been accomplished and the tape was taken out of the country,” the source said.

        An unnamed Turkish official told the Reuters news agency that Turkish police believed Khashoggi had been killed and his body then removed from the building.


        • Morrissey

          No feigned outrage from Theresa May and co. after this one.

          • adam

            Where is the frothing at the mouth from the UK media and government.

            Oh wait Britain sells the saudis weapons to fight their war against civilians in Yemen.

          • joe90

            And stand up to the gangster oligarchs whose looted wealth oils everything from the City banks and law firms to private schools and Mayfair property prices. Nah.

    • SaveNZ 22.2

      Murdering journalists has become a lot more common.

      In the old days the media companies looked after and defended ‘their journalists’. Nowadays with the rise in cost cutting, journalists on contracts or gig work, trivia, paying for content, commercialisation, media now being bought as part of a portfolio for private investors as a ‘companion’ business to their other big businesses, journalists seem to be very at risk on the job when they do investigative work for social good, in particular.

      No market for that, within the ‘markets’.

    • greywarshark 22.3

      Women the perfect victims – there is so much more harm can be done to them than men. RIP Victoria Marinova and may the perpetrator and his boss and cohorts get theirs too before very long. Some people we can do without very well.

  23. Ad 23

    Just awesome to see Taylor Swift come out full political and support the Democrat Senate candidate.

    For the blowback this could cause and money she will likely lose, this is a gutsy move.

    Wish there were more like her.

  24. Herodotus 24

    We live in a great place, BUT…what of our diminishing NZ Values ??
    No wonder so many (Even Upper Middle class) are struggling to cope.
    Good to see that some govt is at least bring such to light, I am sure that there are many more instances that warrant investigation, which is so sad to make comment on 🙁


  25. Morrissey 25

    That dozy old All Black coach can’t even say
    the word “football” properly. Time to hang up his boots?

    Monday, Oct. 8, 2018

    Just heard, on the 5 o’clock news, that egregious old stumble-tongue Steve Hansen being asked to comment on the return from injury to the All Blacks of Dane Coles. Hansen slurred: “He’ll have enough footy under the belt….”


    Hansen is not merely gruff, surly and arrogant; he’s apparently too st000-pid to say the word “football”?

    More third rate crap by Hansen, for those who can bear it….

    Open mike 23/06/2013

    Open mike 02/08/2012

    • Alan 25.1

      rissy,who are you to criticize someone who has actually achieved something in their life – you are laughable.
      go out and do something useful.

      • Morrissey 25.1.1

        I wasn’t questioning his coaching, I was questioning his gross and unattractive public persona, and his contemptible choice of sub-moronic language.

    • gsays 25.2

      What’s the story Morrissey?
      Do you reckon Steve Hansen pooed in your handbag or something?
      I agree elocution isn’t his strong point, however that isn’t what he is paid for.

      Bad timing to take pot shots at arguably the best AB coach, within days of a unlikely victory in the republic.

      Are you a closet round ball sport fanboy?

      Save it till after the world cup in Japan when you can conjure up a haters diatribe regardless of the result.

      • gsays 25.2.1

        In a related vein, I am sparing a thought for Sam Cane who metaphorically dodged a bullet.
        Without knowing much, the high neck fracture could spell the end of his ‘footy’ career.
        A future captain who reminded me of McCaw in his playing style.

        • Morrissey

          …could spell the end of his ‘footy’ career.

          His football career. Come on, gsays, you can say it, even if oafs like Cane and Hansen are too stupid or too puerile or too afraid to. Football.

          • te reo putake

            We’ve had this discussion before, Moz. Footy is used all around the world as shorthand for football. Different countries, different codes though. Footy in Melbourne is AFL, and in Sydney it’s league. In most of the rest of the world it’s the beautiful game.

            This is how language works; it is, as Burroughs pointed out, a virus. And it gets simpler as it mutates. Complexity is smoothed out and spelling loses out to common usage. It’s a tide, Morrissey, give in to it!

            • Morrissey

              Footy is used all around the world as shorthand for football.

              No it’s not. If you said “footy” anywhere in Great Britain, you would be regarded, quite rightly, as a halfwit. It’s a puerilism that’s never used in the U.S., Canada, or Japan, or indeed by anyone with an IQ above room temperature in Australia or New Zealand.

              It is used, however, by the brutes at Fox Television in Australia, and clearly it’s enforced ruthlessly. Those poor slaves on the ridiculously named “Fox Footy” channel are obliged to say “footy” and “AFL footy” relentlessly and repeatedly throughout every broadcast. Only Hamish McLachlan insists, against orders, on calling football “football”.

              In most of the rest of the world it’s the beautiful game.

              In France, it’s Rugby football that is le beau jeu. (Of course, as we all know, there’s also an ugly side to French rugby, which also has a name: le jeu dur.) The advertising term “the beautiful game” has only been used by soccer authorities in recent years, and it’s strictly advertising-speak. The term comes from Pelé’s brilliant book My Life and the Beautiful Game, which is an endorsement of all that is wonderful in Brazilian football as opposed to the cynicism and dullness of the European game, with its routine back-passes to the goalkeeper, and its strangling systemization, as epitomized by Inter Milan’s wretched catenaccio.

              • Where to start? Rugby is not ‘the beautiful game’ in France. It never has been called that as far as I know and as I’ve shown you previously it’s followed by bugger all people in France anyway. Fun fact; league was the bigger version of egg chasing in France pre-war, but the local fascists preferred union and closed down the superior code.

                The word footy is most widely used downunder, for sure, but it is a recognizable term world wide, and particularly so in the in the UK.

                Still, carry on your one man campaign to limit the use of the word if you want. Nobody is listening, nothing will change.

                • Morrissey

                  Where to start?
                  Classic! Announce to everyone how bewildered you are. Effective strategy.

                  Rugby is not ‘the beautiful game’ in France.
                  Yes it is. You don’t know much about France, and especially French rugby.

                  It never has been called that as far as I know
                  As far as you know. Which is… not far. Your repetition of that dismal treiziste fantasy blaming the war for the failure of the Die-with-the-Ball game only underlines how little you do know.

                  The word footy is most widely used downunder, for sure,

                  Not by anyone intelligent. It’s football, whether the game is rugby or soccer. I’ve never heard a football (soccer) player or manager or commentator in either Australia or New Zealand ever use the infantile “footy” on television or radio; unlike their rugby counterparts, they’re much smarter and much more aware of the importance of speaking correctly.

                  but it is a recognizable term world wide, and particularly so in the in the UK.

                  No it’s not. It’s used as often in the U.K. as it is in the U.S. Virtually never.

                  Still, carry on your one man campaign to limit the use of the word if you want. Nobody is listening, nothing will change.

                  Well, YOU seem pretty upset about it. Still, if you want to endorse the moronic, morose and contemptuous “Shag”, go ahead.

      • Morrissey 25.2.2

        I agree elocution isn’t his strong point…

        You don’t need elocution lessons to say the word football. You just need to not be puerile.

        Bad timing to take pot shots at arguably the best AB coach…

        My criticism of Hansen has nothing to do with his coaching, and everything to do with his lack of graciousness, his gruffness, his arrogance, and (in his excruciatingly stupid comment yesterday) his seeming inability to speak like an intelligent adult.

        Are you a closet round ball sport fanboy?

        What? I like all sports. I detest a lot of the ideology and bullshit and the stumble-tongued coaches that they’re burdened with.

        • marty mars

          “his seeming inability to speak like an intelligent adult.”

          He might have a speech impediment or other speaking difficulty.

          Footy is a well used term from where he and I grew up. Get off your high horse and back into your high chair phool.

  26. Morrissey 26

    He might have a speech impediment or other speaking difficulty.

    ???? You know that’s a ridiculous statement. So why make it?

    Footy is a well used term from where he and I grew up.

    No it’s not. It’s a new and unwelcome puerilism. You and your friends used either “football” or “rugby”—never “footy” or “rugger”.

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