Open mike 08/09/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:30 am, September 8th, 2014 - 246 comments
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openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

246 comments on “Open mike 08/09/2014”

  1. Tautoko Viper 1

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10470340/Collins-a-media-victim-just-like-Diana-sister

    STUFF Stuff! How can they sit on material that could bring down a government and yet publish this sort of STUFF!

    • tc 1.1

      Media by name but a large corporate by nature.

    • Rodel 1.2

      Thought it was satire at first..

      • weka 1.2.1

        Danyl Mclauchlan ‏@danylmc

        ‘Even when you resigned/All the press still hounded you/All the papers had to say/Was that you’d undermined the Serious Fraud Office.’

        😉

        • weka 1.2.1.1

          Phillip Mason ‏@masph984
          @ShakingStick @danylmc

          “Your whale-oil burned out long before, your vengeance never did”

          • disturbed 1.2.1.1.1

            Weka, What a hoot man (sorry for the pun)

            Lets go finish a version and get Planet Key revised?

            “Good bye no-good key, bet you were betting on your first billion you had made , when the feds came and stole your crown again,” ———-

    • Halcyon 1.3

      I still have not seen any clear evidence. All I have seen so far is Hagar’s allegations based on a number of emails that possibly could have been taken out of context. If Stuff or The Herald have further information it looks like they are waiting until closer to election day to release it. That will provide less time for the authenticity of the information to be checked. If that happens then it will demonstrate that the media is more focused on changing the Government than on finding truth.

      • James 1.3.1

        These guys don’t want the truth

      • Tracey 1.3.2

        Yea not like anyone sped to an all black match, something this PM would be cheered for byt he and others villified her for.

        One day when you wake up and find your kids dont respect you, remember what you taught them;

        Intergity doesnt matter
        Honesty doesnt matter
        Make lots of money

    • infused 1.4

      If there was anything in it, it would be out by now.

      • karol 1.4.1

        Too soon. They are probably checking it to see what corroborating evidence there is from other sources, and also getting a statement from the accused – then checking the statements by the accused, and running them through their lawyers – how journalists should work.

        • Ant 1.4.1.1

          The other explanation is that their agenda is that of corporate media…

          The risk is that the info will be parsed in terms of that agenda and how they perceive politics — the game of it, not the substance of it.

          Maybe they’ll balance each other out, maybe not, but we have been seriously let down by the news media in this country of late so I’m not holding my breath.

          • karol 1.4.1.1.1

            I agree with your last sentence.

          • yeshe 1.4.1.1.2

            1. The three media outlets shared one QC on Friday.

            2. Not one outlet has even hinted they are working on anything towards release.

            3. Not a single word has been published by any of them on the whole issue since the court hearing.

            I believe they are complicit in one of the biggest right wing rorts of New Zealand, continuing with what they have been doing for years.

            Is it evolving to be a corporate media vs internet battle.

            Come in Rawshark, your time is up. Please.

    • David H 1.5

      Because they KNOW that the MSM will get an overhauling if Cunliffe gets in. And they know they are dirty and are scared.

    • locus 1.6

      Not that I have any time for royalty or for for the public outpouring of grief over Diana’s death.

      But this article by Stuff is unbelievable, stupid, insensitive and utterly effing unforgivable. Diana was a giver, a kindergarten teacher, who only wanted to be loved, gave herself to charities, was genuine and naive.

      Judith Collins krgh..yuck (furball) is absolutely the opposite. A hardened self-serving, power-hungry, manipulative, corrupt individual who wants at all costs to have power. She would never give herself to any charitable cause for genuine caring reasons and is certainly not naive.

      J figjam C deserves everything she gets from the media. What was discovered by Rawshark is probably just the tip of the iceberg.

      • Kiwiri 1.6.1

        Stuff’s next piece will involve interviewing Judith Collins’ neighbour who reckons JC is like Mother Teresa.

    • hoom 1.7

      Not a lot of sympathy in the comments on this one.
      And rightly so.

      Being hounded by the media for your own attempts to hound people you don’t like when you are in a position of power is just deserts.

      • aerobubble 1.7.1

        Have you notice how quickly Slater turns himself into the victim. Oh, look a pile of death threats just turned up in my inbox…

        • Once Was Tim 1.7.1.1

          Yep ….. victimhood is always the safe option, bound to conjur sympathy. (It even trumps other ideological positions – personal responsibility and all).
          Poor Cam ….
          Pooor poor Cam ….
          I’m so tuff, but mummy – they’re ALL being mean to me!

          Mummy: Oh Chill Cam – get Aaron to deal with it – I’ve got the Caci Clinic and a hairdresser’s appointment – I’ll deal with it when I get back

    • greywarbler 1.8

      Princess Judith – she fills the space of the cute animal or celebrity story for today. But Princess Diana was a bit like Cinderella, dealing with problems at home and going out for a break to have some fun and look for a prince of her own. Judith C. would fit the role of one of Cinder’s unpleasant sisters.

    • anker 1.9

      I have made a decision that for the next week at least, I am not clicking on stuff. I am stick of giving these bastards the click.

      Will catch up on what happening on the Standard. I wonder about a boycott of stuff with just a few people on the left feeding it to blogs like the Standard so we can critique it. That way they get a significant decrease in clicks.

      If people think this is a good idea, I am sure we could organise it. I would be happy to be on a roster, where I feed what I thought was relevant to the Standard…………sure we could make it work somehow.

    • hoom 1.10

      Stuff so impressed with the amount of ‘lol wtf’ type responses they deemed it worth a separate article

      http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/10472211/Judith-Collins-Top-reader-comments

      Its curious that there would be quite such a voluminous & one sided response to this if the polls are actually right about Nats being over 50% I think.

  2. Draco T Bastard 2

    Natural Born Liars

    However the politics of the conservative right, the new Tories, the Libertarians, are the politics of selfishness. To believe that poverty is the fault and responsibility of the individual, to actively seek the reduction of the welfare state, to reward the rich and punish those left fortunate: that requires an absence of empathy.

    My concern is not that people in power behave this way. We should predict and expect that. My concern is that if, as a country, we return this Government to power, if we rubber stamp the heartless and cynical politics that are now a matter of public record, then we implicitly approve of this behaviour.

    And that makes us all a little less human.

    • @ draco..

      you want demolitions/unpacking of libertarian bullshit..?

      ..i have quite a bit of that..

      http://whoar.co.nz/?s=libertarian

    • crocodill 2.2

      Kyle MacDonald.. psychotherapist, huh?

      If that’s the case, then he knows that he’s left out at least half the story. The line’s he’s drawn in his blog post are purely subjective and to his taste. He isn’t writing as a “psychotherapist as scientist” – as far as such a thing is possible – and he’s certainly blurred the line. Theoretically the statement that “poverty is the fault and responsibility of the individual” is both true and untrue depending on the individual and the approach of the therapist/observer. Hypothetically, and not using politics, it should be possible to arrive at both the truth and/or a solution of each case from both positions.

      One of my pet peeves is people with social status e.g. doctors, lawyers, philanthropists etc, knowing full well what their status gives their voice in the public arena, betray the science and rules of their profession, maybe even vocation, to present a personal biased political argument. It brings their practice into disrepute, the idea of authority/elders as wise, and a the furthest end, undermines our community.

      Personally,I know full well the lie that underpins the idea of “don’t kill/starve/abuse the kids”. I know I can prove that either is acceptable, in a human animal sense. But I choose, through my own bias when faced with an either/or choice, to not kill/starve/abuse the kids.

      • anker 2.2.1

        Can you give me the link to the Kylie Mc article Crocodill??? I would like to see it with the view to writing to the psychotherapists board.

      • Once Was Tim 2.2.2

        “One of my pet peeves is people with social status e.g. doctors, lawyers, philanthropists etc, knowing full well what their status gives their voice in the public arena, betray the science and rules of their profession…..”

        That’s very perceptive @Croc – but actually also quite prevalent (especially amongst those that have succumbed to the neo-lib agenda – which is often a way of their rationalising their stance)
        David Brat anyone?
        Ladder puller uppers?
        Chief Science Advisors with sons who are … and trauma specialists with previous drug addiction problems who don’t have the balls to challenge the agenda (altho’ to be fair – they may also think not challenging allows them to continue with a positive agenda – @ PU – in your past life – perhaps you’ve crossed paths with them – thru’ a brother – now deceased, I Certainly have!)

        Wife beater journalists; complete asshole hotel owners, the voice of morality and conservative ‘once were swingers’ decrying the decay of (there’s no such thing as) ‘society’ as we know it… the list is endless – and most of them are amongst the most judgemental and oppressive of their next generation.

        I think though at times such as we have at present – it really is time for them to come clean. For me, nearing my dotage, it’s way passed time.
        But then I suppose given the state of our MSM media, at the moment they’d not be given a fair suck of the sav.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.2.3

        Theoretically the statement that “poverty is the fault and responsibility of the individual” is both true and untrue depending on the individual and the approach of the therapist/observer.

        Poverty is a result of the structure of our society.

        One of my pet peeves is people with social status e.g. doctors, lawyers, philanthropists etc

        If you disagree with what’s said then why don’t you say why you disagree rather going on an Ad Hominem attack?

        • Once Was Tim 2.2.3.1

          My pet peeve is the way lower socio-economic people with addictions are denegrated – OFTEN by the higher socio-economic classes with the very same additions. I commend them in their recovery of course, but its generally come by being able to take advantage of high cost, private services that are not available to everyone.
          Hanmer – dismantled
          Marton – dismantled, etc.
          Right across the country! Indeed there was a report tis morning (Morning Report I think) discussing a young lady’s morphine overdose pointing out just how services for the ‘average Joe and Josephine are no longer availabe, and haven’t been for quite some time.

          I’m sorry if all that offends you, however my brother’s addiction and eventual death was looked upon by his wealthier contemporaries with disdain as though their addictions were somehow excusable and ‘better/more respectable’, whereas his were not.
          There but for the grace of God etc.

          I’ll refrain from further comment because the double standards and hypocrisy make me just a bit sick at times.

          oops – not sure who I’m replying to here – can’t find reading glasses and the numbering is a bit invisible, but gtg.
          Later chasps

  3. Paul 3

    We know the Herald wants ACT and National to win the election, but this level of bias is worthy of a banana republic….
    The Herald’s headline is based on on a snide remark made by (one can only assume, as it I sun ascribed) a Tory hack. Talk about skewing a story to fit your newspaper’s political agenda.
    “That hall looks as healthy as the Labour Party,” someone remarked.

    And yet you sit on material which looks at corruption within our governing system and say nothing.
    Wow. Just wow.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11320550

    • tc 3.1

      Get used to it, democracy under attack granny styles using one of the more obviously biased nat sycophans audrey young who needs no instructions being a die hard tory.

    • Fred 3.2

      We should organise demonstrations outside mainstream media outlets pushing for the release of the material they have been given by Rawshark. If they don’t release it soon, it will prove how corrupt our mainstream media. Of course we know that – but so many sheeple don’t.

      • Gosman 3.2.1

        Or you could request Rawshank release the information to you. If you think he is too difficult to find Hager found him without too many problems.

      • Halcyon 3.2.2

        By holding off releasing any material until just before the election, and thereby preventing an accurate assessment of the validity of the allegations would demonstrate clearly that the media is corrupt.

        After all the main purpose of the media is to introduce the public to advertisers. The dissemination of news is secondary and a reliance on truth is not required.

        • Tracey 3.2.2.1

          Slater sued for the return of his emails. The judge ruled its in the public interest.

          Run back to Cammies site, theres some koolaid awaiting

  4. disturbed 4

    Tautoko Viper Funny that?

    Wasn’t it the press and National that said opposition should be talking policy while they try all we get is this sop.

    Surely they should at least be talking about the Government’s lack of any policy for climate change.

    NatZ Climate change Minister Tim Grosser was shamed at this debate last week, and never covered in the press.

    Opposition should go after NatZ on this in the last days leading up to the elections.

    http://www.climatevoter.org.nz/debate/

    Every where else it is the biggest policy decision being made in the world.

    Within these following headlines and still there’s no MSM comments about lack of a NatZ policy press are doing us a huge disservice that will come home to roost in the end.

    Lack of a Climate Change policy is NatZ weakest policy along with credibility, that lacks critical glare of the press.

    PD Gluckman, Chief Science Advisor has done nothing to focus on Climate change however.

    12:20 June 10, 2010 Pacific Press Releases Gluckman: Integrity in Science – Climate Debate Speech – Prime Ministers Science Advisory Committee. “If we overestimate, then in 2050 we might find that we have overinvested in climate change mitigation, but most of those mitigation strategies, such as sustainable energy generation, will help to meet our other challenges. The equation is not equal.”

    http://pacific.scoop.co.nz/2010/06/gluckman-integrity-in-science-climate-debate/

    Importantly this refusal to make a meaningful stand from National coincides with a climate Change debate taking place this week in the pacific Islands.

    July 2014 climate debate http://news.yahoo.com/pacific-summit-urge-action-climate-change-045854000.html

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/01/un-weather-forecasts-2050-climate-change-floods-drought

    United Nations predicts climate hell in 2050 with imagined weather forecasts

    ‘Reports from the future’ warn of floods, storms and searing heat in campaign for climate change summit

  5. Rodel 5

    act’s Jami whyte pathos this morning with Guyen/Guyan/Guyun?..ACT is dead in the water.

    • Gosman 5.1

      Yet Cunliffe and Peters felt the need to make formal statements on Act policy. Why would they bother if it was dead?

      • ScottGN 5.1.1

        Because it’s a lovely stick to hit National over the head with.

        • Gosman 5.1.1.1

          It is a stick with no relevance if Act is indeed politically dead.

          • ScottGN 5.1.1.1.1

            Dead or alive the stick can still be effective. The opposition parties will all be praying that Jamie Whyte talks about abolishing the OIO all way til election day.

          • Lanthanide 5.1.1.1.2

            Er, no, if it is a dead rotting corpse, that’s even better to hit National with, in the hopes some of the rotting flesh will stick to them as well.

            Pretty obvious strategy given Key conflates Labour with every other controversial party, policy and person on the left at every opportunity.

            • greywarbler 5.1.1.1.2.1

              ACT as the Zombie Party. Great image. Look out for that shambling walk and defaced face and bulging eyes of madness. Don’t let them touch you, and keep your baton to hand.

          • miravox 5.1.1.1.3

            Key has to pretend ACT is alive to use it to announce more neo-lib dross (like the previously announced Charter schools). Probably selling off part of the health system or education vouchers to improve ‘choice’ as part of the ever so necessary coalition agreement. Because National would never do such things, oh noes.

      • Tracey 5.1.2

        Key talks about labour policy all the time, why does he do that if they are dead in the water?

      • Clemgeopin 5.1.3

        It is to remind the voters not to waste their precious votes on stupid and dead parties such as ACT, Conservatives and the dodgy Dunne’s UF! Don’t tell me you are foolishly thinking of voting for one of these clowns?

      • Rodel 5.1.4

        Gos-respect for the dead is important

    • David H 5.2

      Whyte has been getting more extreme (desperate?) everyday. This morning on the News attacking all and Sundry. Show’s he’s ready for Parliament NOT. They would have him for lunch.

      • Tracey 5.2.1

        He has selective racism too. He rants and rages against Maori while lambastingwinston for bashing Asians

  6. Sanctuary 6

    Two interesting little local polls on the East Coast. The second is only a street poll of 50 and of little use statisitcally, but they both show up a massive number of undecided voters and a lot of damage to National over the dirty politics saga.

    Also, the Waiarapa poll does what no one else has – put the undecided voters into it’s graphic. National is on 34%. However, if you take out the undecided voters, then of the decided the Nats are pushing…. 50%.

    I suspect that is where the “govern alone” narrative is coming from – half of all decided voters are voting National, but up to one third are yet to make up their minds. I suspect this is where National’s sudden tax cuts come from – their internal polling told them they took a hit, and there is a huge number of undecided voters they are trying to bribe.

    • Cancerman 6.1

      I decent chuck of that non decided generally become non voters. About 30% you say, which is similar, maybe a bit high, to the non vote in past. It is not unreasonable to assume a amount of the electorate won’t vote and therefore their vote is divided amongst the other percentages.

      • weka 6.1.1

        30% is too high, even 2011 had 74% turnout. Usuall the turnout is higher than that, often in the 80s. The undecideds and the non-voters aren’t the same group, although there is some overlap.

        • Cancerman 6.1.1.1

          Yes you are right my 30% mention is too high, I think it was 25% last election and as CV says below turnout looks like it will be higher and high turnout usually hurts incumbents but my point is clear in that the undecided don’t make polls completely distorted.

          • weka 6.1.1.1.1

            The polls, as they are reported, are a complete distortion when the MSM discounts undecideds as non-voters, esp when the undecideds are such a high percentage in a close election.

            Worse, at the last election the MSM reported before the election that National would win. How many undecideds did that push into non-voters? How many decideds for that matter (mostly Labour voters who thought it would be a waste of time)?

      • Colonial Viper 6.1.2

        I think early voting results will show that people are deciding and acting at far higher rates than in 2011. This is of course a very bad sign for National, who would prefer lowered turnout if at all possible (one of the themes of their Dirty Politics).

      • yeshe 6.2.1

        wonder if John Campbell and TV3 will find that secondary school that has always opposed the ‘official’ polls to be spot on with prediction in the last three .. was it in Hawkes Bay somewhere ? I’ve been waiting …. anyone else remember ?

        (And I wonder how JC feels that TV3 holds Rawshark material and is not publishing ?)

  7. kenny 7

    The biggest threat to our democracy at the moment are the polls. They are obviously dodgy and unreliable and dare I say it, dishonest.

    Ignore the polls; they lie. Unfortunately the majority of voters seem to believe them (if we believe the polls) – see what I mean?

    • Cancerman 7.1

      Why are the obviously dodgy and unreliable? And if you average them out like Nate Silver they can become very reliable.

      • wtl 7.1.1

        Why are the obviously dodgy and unreliable?

        Because the difference between polls conducted over similar time periods by different companies show differences far beyond what would be expected by chance alone. In other words, at least some polls are suffering from uncorrected bias. Averaging poor quality data won’t make the results any more reliable.

      • Lanthanide 7.1.2

        “Why are the obviously dodgy and unreliable? And if you average them out like Nate Silver they can become very reliable.”

        But no one in NZ is doing anything close to Nate Silver.

        Also the electoral system the US uses is much easier to model and forecast than NZ’s system, and he also has far more data at his disposal to work with (both demographic and polling data).

    • Gosman 7.2

      How about you get together a bunch of your lefty mates and create a polling company that does it properly then.

      • ScottGN 7.2.1

        It’s not just the left though Gosman. Morning Report had Richard Prebble saying that the polls are all wrong and that the ‘telephone’ model doesn’t work anymore. ACT is going to get 7 MPs apparently.

        • Gosman 7.2.1.1

          Except Act doesn’t complain that any flawed methodology is as a result of some deliberate bias against them and also doesn’t claim that it will influence the election.

      • wtl 7.2.2

        How about you get together a bunch of your lefty mates and create a polling company that does it properly then.

        Why bother? The only thing that matters is the actual election result. I would prefer it if polls a few months before the election were banned – they are just a distraction from the real issues that should guide voter’s choices come election day.

        • Draco T Bastard 7.2.2.1

          +111

          Ban the damn polls. That should force the MSM to actually do some journalism and report actual news.

        • Gosman 7.2.2.2

          Now there’s a surprise. A solution from someone on the left wanting to ban what is essentially free speech [/sar].

          • wtl 7.2.2.2.1

            Meh. We already have plenty of regulations governing our elections to ensure they are free and fair. Opinion polls are already banned in New Zealand on election day itself (OMG a restriction on free speech!!!). In some other countries, they are banned for longer periods, so it’s an option that is at least worth considering.

          • Chooky 7.2.2.2.2

            @ Gosman …”free speech ” or free manipulation of statistics for a ‘poll’ instrument of right wing PR warfare?

          • Draco T Bastard 7.2.2.2.3

            Now there’s a surprise, a RWNJ using the excuse of free speech to continue the corruption of our voting system by the MSM.

      • Lanthanide 7.2.3

        It’s easy to imagine a model that would be much more consistent and hopefully less biased than current methods, it’s just it would be too expensive. Which is why we get the current level of shoddy polling that we do.

      • Puckish Rogue 7.2.4

        You want the left to stick their hands in their own pockets? Surely there should be a state funded polling company instead…Kiwipoll sounds about right

        • Lanthanide 7.2.4.1

          Probably the closest we would ever get to fair polling, but no government would set such an SOE up due to the embarrassment of having to answer questions about why “the official” polling office has them on such low support, etc.

        • millsy 7.2.4.2

          We have a state funding polling company — it’s called “The Electoral Commission”.

  8. Dont worry. Be happy 8

    Next time you start waving around your latest big shiny poll why don’t you examine the importance of the undecided percentage?

    I’m talking to you TV3, TVNZ, Fairfax, Herald, Colmar Brunton and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all.

    I double dare you.

    Of all the qualities Courage is the most important for without it all the rest are at risk. (Paraphrase J M Barrie)

    • Cancerman 8.1

      Like i have already stated the undecided are often at this late stage become non votes. 100% of the electorate does not vote.

      • wtl 8.1.1

        Like i have already stated the undecided are often at this late stage become non votes.

        Where is the evidence of this? Since polling companies do not follow-up with those polled to determine whether or not they voted, I doubt such evidence even exists.

        • BM 8.1.1.1

          http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2012/02/21/chart-of-the-day-used-to-vote-for-you-but-now-doesnt-vote-man-edition/

          Going by the above graphic 25% of people eligible to vote won’t vote, these are the undecideds.

          I doubt large numbers of people who were going to vote suddenly change their minds at the end and suddenly think “Aw fuck it they all suck, I’m not voting!”

          • wtl 8.1.1.1.1

            Going by the above graphic 25% of people eligible to vote won’t vote, these are the undecideds.

            Yeah, no shit. Turn-out is not 100%, I knew that. What you haven’t shown is that these people who don’t vote are the same ones who won’t give a response during a telephone poll.

            • BM 8.1.1.1.1.1

              Whats the percentage of people in the telephone polls who said they’re undecided? is it roughly around 25%-30%

              • ScottGN

                Depending on the poll I think it has ranged from about 6% to 18% in this campaign.

                • BM

                  Looking at previous elections the undecided/non-voter is either being under represented or we’re going to get a much higher turn out than the last couple of elections.

                  • weka

                    The undecideds and the non-voters are not the same group.

                    • BM

                      The undecideds will become the non-voters.

                    • wtl

                      The undecideds will become the non-voters.

                      Simply saying it over and over again doesn’t make it true.

                    • weka

                      “The undecideds will become the non-voters.”

                      Some of the undecideds will become non-voters

                      fify.

                      Your problem is you have no idea how many.

                      Plu, the general consensus is that non-voters who become voters tend to vote left.

                    • Cancerman

                      No your right and I stand to be corrected, hopefully someone could point to some studies, but I would say at late stage polling the undecided constitute a large portion of non voters. But your right they are not exactly the same group.

                  • ScottGN

                    Someone else will know better than me how the methodology of polling works but I don’t think non-voters and undecideds are the same thing. As far as I know the non-voters are removed from the samples, undecideds are those who say they will vote but won’t or can’t express a preference? Interestingly the IPSOS-Reid Fairfax poll which has National polling the highest also has the most undecideds and Tracey Watkins in her analysis of their latest poll said that dividing the undecideds (13% if I recall) support along the same preferences as the polling data would see National’s support drop by 2%.

                    • weka

                      yes, non-voters and undecideds are different groups, with overlaps. BM is spinning.

                      I don’t think non-voters are polled in those main polls. I asked the other day about people who said piss off to polsters, and Draco reckons those people are accounted for in the final results, but that’s a different set than official non-voters.

                      The polls, as reported, are biased. If they wanted to report what the NZ public is really thinking, they would include all the results.

                  • A large number of people refuse to participate in polling.

                    A useful statistic would be the number of people the polling companies called in order to get their overall sample of around 1000 (or 750 for the Herald Digipoll).

                    My guess is that the committed non-voters would be more likely to be in the ‘refuse to participate at all in the poll’ group.

                    I note that in the Wairarapa poll the number of people called was over twice the size of the sample:

                    Of the 1069 random calls made, 417 voters agreed to take part in the survey.

              • wtl

                Whats the percentage of people in the telephone polls who said they’re undecided? is it roughly around 25%-30%

                Why are you asking me that? Even if the percentages matched (I’m not saying they do), you would still be making an assumption, it doesn’t prove that undecideds=non-voters.

              • Tracey

                Imagine if you applied that analysis to john key and the revelations of ms odgers and mr hager…

      • Colonial Viper 8.1.2

        I reckon early polling data this week will show that you are quite wrong – interest in this election is far higher than in the last.

  9. Sans Cle 9

    lol (not) that Judith Collins doesn’t lie!!! Was she not caught out in Parliament doing just that? Has her sister forgotten about Oravida Dairy?
    Does her sister have a perspective on Oravida Kauri ltd (her brother in law’s company)? Adam Bennett in the Herald was rummaging around the topic a few months ago, but has gone quiet. (as has Adam Bennett). Radio NZ mentioned it last week in a programme – exporting of kauri logs with little to no “value added” to them.

    A comment I made on the Herald website got “moderated” last week. Took out reference to Oravida Kauri Ltd, but left my other (unrelated) comment.

    Media complicit in all this.

    • brian 9.1

      Judith Collins likened (by her sister) to Princess Diana!

      Just one subtle distinction. Being loved by your family, and being loved by a nation.
      Good on her sister for supporting Collins, but by coming out in the public domain with her crass comparison, Pamela Cassidy deserves to be mocked mercilessly

      • Te Reo Putake 9.1.1

        I always suspected it was John Key driving the white Fiat Uno in that Paris underpass.

        • yeshe 9.1.1.1

          When the headline top of Stuff page this morning should have been about emails from Key’s office, we get this saccharine and slithering attempt to rehabilitate Collins image.

          This folks is what PR and Crosby Textor do to our country.

          So, finally, we get Dirty Politics on the front page of Stuff ! It just wasn’t what we expected or needed. But omg, how they are proven complicit in how the game is played.

        • Puckish Rogue 9.1.1.2

          Don’t say that someone on here will probably believe it

          • Te Reo Putake 9.1.1.2.1

            Good point, PR. To nip it in the bud, I think Key should tell us where he was on 31 August 1997 and provide evidence of his alibi. While I think it most unlikely he was directly involved (he has minions for that sort of thing) it’s best he clears it up once and for all, lest the election campaign descend into farce. Pip Pip!

          • Tracey 9.1.1.2.2

            Its not a true lie til cam cam posts it on behalf of someone paying him to fib.

        • The Al1en 9.1.1.3

          “I always suspected it was John Key driving the white Fiat Uno in that Paris underpass.”

          Conspiracy theorist. There was no fiat. Everyone knows Judith’s limo spun out on oravida milk before crashing head first into a whale’s arse.

      • David H 9.1.2

        As does the idiot that scribbled that drivel.

      • Hanswurst 9.1.3

        I don’t think there’s any call to mock Mrs Cassidy. She’s entitled to her opinion, especially if it concerns her little sister. However, it really isn’t newsworthy, and publishing the story represents both sickening puffery on behalf of Ms Collins and a shameless exploitation of how forthcoming her elder sister is in making an unwitting fool of herself.

        • BM 9.1.3.1

          Almost as bad as that John Key, Aroha girl story rehash they had on stuff yesterday.

          I get the feeling stuff is going like the daily mail, all their stories are designed purely to get a reaction from people.

          • Hanswurst 9.1.3.1.1

            Key made that a relevant issue himself, though, by politicising the issue in the first place. The private views of Collins’ sister are different. If she was put up to it in a deliberate and calculated spin to puff up Collins’ image, then she deserves ridicule. However, I have no real evidence that she was. It just looks like the papers spinning to me.

          • Tracey 9.1.3.1.2

            How dare the girl who mr key used to support his great con, speak out, aye BM. Makes it harder and harder for dupes like you to stay the course being reminded of the cons

  10. Left Out 11

    Spot the deference between the original and the published version ( second one) in today’s NZ  Herald’s offshoot The Northern Advocate. I copied the original transcript   from the Matters Political Northland  F/B. The Rightwing Media twist the factors is clearly illustrated here.

     Our Unionist friend done a 
    super job shaking this Tory Town up well done comrade!

    In response to “Organiser defends line up”

    I would like to clarify some of the reporting on the Northland Regional Economic forum I organised. Mr Whyte did not contact me at all- not once, his local candidate and I spoke 3 times, and a female candidate called to say she was coming in support of Robin.  They made 3 requests in total. It was outlined that it was main party’s that indicated they could work together to form a Government, subject to NZF and all the variables. ACT, Internet & Mana plus the Conservatives all fell outside of this. 

    The request for National to be included came after a number of people (mainly business sector) intending to come, signaled they would like to hear what National had to offer in the way regional development policy. I thought that’s a fair call, and there were plenty asking. I then contacted Bill English’s office and extended the same offer as to the other 3 political party’s who had excepted. The brief was Leader, Deputy or Co, the offer to send Phil Heatley was rejected as this criteria wasn’t met, however I did make room for National to send a higher ranking MP other than a retiring local  MP- no response back. 

    Collin Craig never contacted me his  press secretary did, 5.30pm Sunday 24 hours before the event.

    The large crowd of 240 people were very respectful of all main speakers, as were the speakers of one & another and the party’s they represented. However they gave jibes directed at the incumbent government, which is what opposition party’s do. Also fueled by presumably by a frustration of a ‘no show’ by the National leadership and the sanctioning of their local candidate Shane Reti from attending the meet the candidate section.   

    All political candidates standing for Whangarei were invited, that part was totally democratic. I do take your point Jamie, thus I ended the forum with next time prior to the election let’s have ‘all the leaders of political party’s here’ and let Northland be the place where Regional development policies are heard, we have been left out for too long. 
    Shane Reti as previously mentioned was not allowed to partake, head office would not allow him, he told me this in person.

    The Maori party candidate did not return my call-invitation. All other candidates participated, David Curran represents the Internet Party, Mana doesn’t have a candidate standing in the Whangarei general seat.

    In my opinion either way Jamie Whyte was always going to make the headlines, this is politics and as Leader he needs the publicity. No other party is making a fuss, full credit to them.

    All candidates were congratulated ‘whatever they & their party’s idealogical views were. 

    What I am disappointed in, and from the feedback I’ve received. Where is  the reporting of the very good policies these political leaders spoke of? The focus was regional economic development not the sideshow reported in Thursdays edition.

    Lastly, Thanks  to all the positive feedback from those who attended and enjoyed themselves.

    Regards
    Alby Barr     

    No contact

    Re the Northland Regional Economic forum I organised.

    Act leader Jamie Whyte did not contact me at all-his local candidate and I spoke 3 times. They made 3 requests in total. It was outlined that it was main party’s that indicated they could work together to form a Government, subject to NZF and all the variables. ACT, Internet & Mana plus the Conservatives all fell outside of this. 

    The request for National to be included came after a number of people (mainly business sector) intending to come, signaled they would like to hear what National had to offer in the way regional development policy. I contacted Bill English’s office; The brief was Leader, Deputy or Co. The offer to send Phil Heatley was rejected as this criteria wasn’t met. However, I did make room for National to send a higher ranking MP other than a retiring local  MP- no response back. 

    The large crowd of 240 people were very respectful of all main speakers, as were the speakers of one & another. 
    All Whangarei political candidates were invited, that part was totally democratic. I take your point Jamie, thus I ended the forum with “next time prior to the election let’s have ‘all the leaders of political party’s here’ and let Northland be the place where Regional development policies are heard, we have been left out for too long”.

    The Maori party candidate did not return my call-invitation. All other candidates participated, David Curran represents the Internet Party, Mana doesn’t have a candidate standing in the Whangarei general seat.

    In my opinion either way Jamie Whyte was always going to make the headlines, this is politics and as leader he needs the publicity. No other party is making a fuss, full credit to them.

    All candidates were congratulated ‘whatever they & their party’s idealogical views were. 

    Where is  the reporting of the very good policies these political leaders spoke of? The focus was regional economic development, not the sideshow reported in Thursdays edition.

    Lastly, Thanks  to all the positive feedback from those who attended and enjoyed themselves.

    Alby Barr     
    Whangarei

    http://m.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=11319031

    • Skinny 11.1

      The reporter is having a moan on Cameron Slaters Uncles, Matters Political Northland Facebook page. Back to journalism school lady!

  11. brian 12

    .
    Repeating an announcement made on Open Mike yesterday:

    Public Speech
    NICKY HAGAR
    in Hamilton TONIGHT

    Waikato University, Lecture Block L
    7pm Monday 8 September

  12. weka 13

    Bugger the polls, keep calm and vote left.

  13. Bearded Git 14

    I think this is smart politics from Cunliffe, with the usual caveat about NZF. He just said this to Mike Hoskin:

    “Labour leader David Cunliffe says there will be a maximum of three parties in any Government he leads, and has ruled out including the Maori Party at the Cabinet table.

    Speaking to Newstalk ZB’s Mike Hosking this morning, Mr Cunliffe said he intended to only include the Green Party and NZ First in any government.

    People need to know before the election that a vote for the Maori Party is a vote for the National Party.”

    See: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11320534

    • Cancerman 14.1

      He also said crown limos for everyone. Yipee!

    • Puckish Rogue 14.2

      Of course confidence and supply is another story…

      • Lanthanide 14.2.1

        Yes, it is. Do you want a gold star?

        • Puckish Rogue 14.2.1.1

          The curia poll of polls has Labour/Greens/NZFirst on 45% whereas the same poll has National/NZFirst on 54%

          • yeshe 14.2.1.1.1

            then surely you (pr) can do the numbers yourself on Labour/Greens/NZF vs the rest ?

            oh, and farrar owns curia ? there we go then; you can rest now until the nurse comes.

          • Bearded Git 14.2.1.1.2

            But Puckish, a 3.5% shift to the Left would mean Cunliffe as PM. Perfectly possible in 2 weeks and given the polls overstating of the Nats vote in the past. Indeed Cunliffe may be in the box seat now, depending on Winston.

            The most accurate poll, the Roy Morgan, had Lab/Gr/NZF 48 Nats 45 in its poll a few days ago.

      • Tracey 14.2.2

        Yup, cos MP arent at the cabinet table under Nats

      • Clemgeopin 14.3.1

        Me too!
        I wrote this comment on his blog. What do you think?

        “Great post.

        This is the ideal coalition that the country can have now.

        It brings in experience, pragmatism, moderation and wisdom.

        Labour-Greens-NZF will be the best palatable tonic and medicine for the economic, social and environmental good of the entire country, instead of a dangerously corroding malady that is bound to afflict NZ if a National led coalition takes over. Hopefully over 50% of the voters selflessly recognise this very important fact.

        Internet-Mana and the Maori party can, if they wish, give such a government confidence and supply in return for concessions to some of their good policies.

        At the same time, the Greens’ excesses(perceived or otherwise)can be moderated, which will ensure a stable, fair and sensible government which can last for much more than a single term, enabling more of the progressive policies implemented over time without alienating the people.

        Bring it on, I say!”

        • Murray Olsen 14.3.1.1

          I’m hoping that the Greens and Mana will be able to moderate some of Labour’s neoliberal excesses. I don’t think there is anything excessive in any direction about the Greens.

          • Clemgeopin 14.3.1.1.1

            What are the ‘neoliberal’ excesses of Labour you stupidly speak of? Here are some of Labour’s core policies. Tell me which ones of these, or any other, that you think are ‘neoliberal’ excesses?

            *100,000 new, affordable homes
            *Free healthcare to under 13s, pregnant women and over 65s
            *Raising the minimum wage to $16.25
            *Ensure every rental is warm and dry
            *Everything paid for, plus we’re in surplus
            *Ensure all Kiwis under 20 are in work, education or training
            *Best Start for Kiwi kids
            *Reduce unemployment to 4% in our first term
            *Lower class sizes
            *Extend paid paternal leave to 26 weeks
            *Ensure that all our rivers and lakes are clean
            *Lowering power bills
            *Convert the dole to apprenticeships
            *Protecting our land from speculators
            *Christchurch recovery policy

            • Colonial Viper 14.3.1.1.1.1

              *100,000 new, affordable homes: these should be built by the state and offered to families at low interest rate government sponsored mortgages.
              *Raising the minimum wage to $16.25: this needs to be combined with a jobs guarantee, worker representation on corporate boards and worker ownership of businesses
              *Everything paid for, plus we’re in surplus: this is entirely neoclassical/orthodox economics
              *Reduce unemployment to 4% in our first term: Labour can’t do this and be in surplus at the same time.
              *Lowering power bills: while allowing the private sector to continue to rake in billions.

              • Hanswurst

                +1, although I think that, if one is generous, these represent left-wing timidity, rather than neo-liberal excess. Labour has been on a slow drift from the Right to the Centre since the Clark/Cullen years.

                • Clemgeopin

                  That IS the pragmatic, smart way, as we need to take the voters along WITH us because we need to get at least 50% of voters supporting a progressive government to even begin thinking of implementing the urgently needed changes. I am surprised and dismayed that many leftist fools (not you) don’t even understand that!

                  I think if we have a Labour party with about 33% support, The Greens and NZF at about 10% each would be ideal to achieve spectacular changes to society, slowly and steadily, without scaring the horses (voters and businesses) and be able to electorally last very well for three or more terms and be able to bid adieu to the RW Neo liberal nasty selfish agenda. With C and S from a 4% IMP and 2% Maori party for moderate policy concessions will be even better.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    You speak of a pragmatic smart way to bring voters along with you but sorry, this centrist timidity is never going to get Labour back up to 35%. Labour has lost its historical vision in favour of managerial caution, and it will keep being punished for that at the ballot box.

                    A very good result for Labour this year is going to be 30%-31%. Anything more than that would be a literal miracle.

                    • Hanswurst

                      I guess the argument for that would be that, if Labour can pull enough in this time to put together a government, that would sideline the Right of the party and give Labour a legitimate claim that there is an electoral appetite for more active and better-funded government. This would provide Labour with ammunition to position itself further to the Left in future. Unfortunately, that would be highly dependent on what sort of an agreement they reached with NZ First, and on the right-wing smear machine from National’s corner being severely wounded after the Dirty Politics revelations. I’m not terribly optimistic on the former, and I think we’ll have to wait and see on the latter. Unfortunately, I’m even less optimistic of a left-wing course for Labour should they lose the election.

                    • greywarbler

                      @ colonial viper 1.18
                      I think you have nailed it. Your observations remain sharp and I believe absolutely right. Wish they could get more traction,

                      I am sure they are getting some, but there is so much inertia. But you never know. I can push my car along with just my puny strength when it’s on the flat. Get the right conditions, and a pinch bar, and Labour might be moved from the gravity of its position in this deep rut.

                    • greywarbler

                      Further to my comment to Colonial viper I found this on Bowalley Road. Chris Trotter has this to say.

                      David Cunliffe is sending three important messages to the electorate. 1) That he considers NZ First indispensable to effecting a change of government. 2) By very publicly ruling out any kind of accommodation with either Internet-Mana or the Maori Party he is signalling that he understands “Middle New Zealand’s” current distaste for radical ideas. 3) He is inviting them to interpret his reaching-out to NZ First as proof of his moderate bona fides.

                      http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2014/09/threes-company-labour-greens-nz-first.html

            • Bearded Git 14.3.1.1.1.2

              Great list Clem. And Labour will not gut the RMA; it will not give stupid hairy-fairy tax cuts when we have debts in tens of billions. Labour also has a much better public transport policy.

              It is often the things that Labour will NOT do that the Nats WILL do that makes the difference.

              • Clemgeopin

                Thanks. I agree!
                It will be monumental mistake for the country if the voters fail to vote for a strong Labour led coalition government on Sept 20.

            • Murray Olsen 14.3.1.1.1.3

              CV has answered for me. I wasn’t going to bother, because you didn’t ask nicely.

  14. Bearded Git 15

    Cunliffe cooking up a storm on TV1-looking very relaxed and that blue cod looks superb.

  15. Tony P 16

    Interesting informal poll in today’s Hawkes Bay Today, a rag that usually parrrots the Herald’s lines. Out on the street Labour is ahead when it comes to the party vote. Looks like a change is going to come in the Napier electorate.

    • Bearded Git 16.1

      @tony: If that is true it is really interesting as party vote was 49-29 to National last time.

      I think the Nats have lost Hawkes Bay/Dunedin/CHCH/Wellington/West Coast this time around. I wonder if the polls are too Auckland-centric?

    • Te Reo Putake 16.2

      I had reason to call in to the Hastings’ office of the HB Today a couple of years ago. The first thing I saw as I walked to the reception area was a notice pinned to the wall advertising the local Nat MP. Subtle as brick to the bonce.

      • Tiger Mountain 16.2.1

        yeah that not so subtle group think that Nats promote through its dark networks particularly in the provinces. There is only “one way” and it is “blue mate” at the lodge, sports club, social club, cop shops, tradies stores and local associations etc.

        Lot of pressure put on the young and vulnerable trying to keep a job in some circles. I had to tell a woman the other day bullied by her self employed partner to vote “Key”, not those “Labour poofters” or else; that it is actually a secret ballot and you can vote which way you like.

  16. adam 17

    I know a bit about Auckland’s infrastructure, god knows I wish I didn’t. Our sewage system and indeed our whole storm water system is in trouble – it’s an open secret – ask around. So when I read this this morning, I had the most uncomfortable feeling I was looking into the future of Auckland. A future which working people get hammered once again. Also just so you never feel alone, we are not alone, the things we face, and the troubles we rally against – are not just happening here.

    http://libcom.org/blog/no-water-no-peace-states-emergency-water-shut-offs-detroit-31082014

  17. Puckish Rogue 18

    Ok so Matt McCarten talks to whaleoil, but do any labour MPs talk to whaleoil (ABC anyone?), the polls are looking better (for National) and what is it with labour candidates in the south being nuttier then fruitcakes?

    But hey I’m sure KDC will introduce (another) game changer on the 15th

    🙂

  18. David H 19

    Now after reading this. My first thought was who wrote this? And it still is.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11320529

    • Rich 19.1

      A sign that the elite see that it’s better to bring Key down now rather than to have a mess in 8 months time. Labour wins, he goes off to work for Merrill Lynch for 4 years and then retires to his home country, the US I believe that is.

      The alternative, everyone figures out that the system is rigged. What happened last time when that came to be I wonder.

    • adam 19.2

      Our resident fox liberal actually says something leftist. I can see why you questioned that one David H.

    • weka 19.3

      You don’t think it was Pagani?

      • adam 19.3.1

        I’ve never heard her be that left Weka. I can’t think when she has not been right of centre in her opinion or comments.

      • David H 19.3.2

        Nope she usually writes right wing drivel. This was way too well thought out for her

  19. greywarbler 20

    Just to reinforce the mendaciousness of Nats and Parata. Salisbury School in Nelson is the last girls school in NZ for disturbed or special needs youngsters.

    Parata tried to close it and was fought and withdrew. But she is preventing it getting new entrants who would normally have been recommended a place. The figures from the Nelson Weekly 8/4/2014 show student numbers at 71 in 2011 and now turned around to 17 in 2014.

  20. adam 21

    In the interests of international labour.

    Big ups to the truck workers in China.

    http://libcom.org/blog/port-trucker-strike-ningbo-china-06092014

  21. dv 22

    A scam Heads Up
    I have just had this call, he would not give me his name.

    From the spark website-
    http://www.spark.co.nz/help/servicealert/phoneservicealert/
    Spark has become aware that some of its customers have been contacted by fraudsters claiming to be from Spark.

    The fraudsters, are reportedly telling customers that their Spark services are about to be cut off because of security issues and then asking the customers to go online to a fake Spark webpage. Customers are also being asked to give remote access to their computer and provide personal banking information as part of this scam.

    These calls are not from Spark and Spark strongly advise anyone who receives one of these calls to hang up immediately, do not hand over any personal banking information and do not proceed to the fraudulent webpage. If anyone has passed on information, Spark advise you to contact your bank immediately.

    Please be assured that these fraudsters do not have access to Spark systems.

    • veutoviper 22.1

      I had a call last week – except they said they were from Telecom – not Spark!

      Having had (over the last few years) literally hundreds of the scam “Microsoft service dept” calls re supposed problems with your computer, I smelt a rat straight away and let them get far enough to confirm that it was yet another variation of this scam. I then used one of my responses to these calls – very loud, very foul language and then hung up. Another one of my responses, when I have it at hand is blowing a cheap $2 shop whistle down the phone.

      The immediate give away was that I am not a customer of Telecom/Spark!

      • dv 22.1.1

        I was very suspicious, especially the accent, and they were going to cut internet for 2 months.
        Didn’t get as far as the scam part as I asked his name, twice. Then he hung up!!

    • David H 22.2

      Oh Goody I love these guys. Run them around for an hour and then in with a mouthful. I had a Miccysoft fraudster on the hook for 90 mins once.

  22. (i see this as being pretty much inevitable..

    ..and should the planet-fucking tories get back in again..

    ..we could kick off with this..sooner than other countries..)

    “..The rebellion to save planet Earth: Why civil disobedience could be our last best hope.

    Traditional methods for fighting global warming have proven fruitless.

    It’s time for the people to take a stand..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.salon.com/2014/09/07/the_rebellion_to_save_planet_earth_why_civil_disobedience_could_be_our_last_best_hope/

  23. veutoviper 24

    For all of those who are feeling let down by the media re the Rawshark dumps, at least there seems to be one media person trying to do something.

    https://twitter.com/felixmarwick/status/508715576412217344/photo/1

    Felix Marwick has apparently been trying to get to the bottom of who in the PM’s office knew about Tucker’s intention to release SIS material to WO, but was thwarted by his OIA request to the PM’s office, He took it to the Ombudsman last week and has had the response that he has tweeted in the above link. Seems the Ombusdmen’s office is going into bat for FM and is seeking an urgent response from the PM’s office.

    • ianmac 24.2

      Great job Felix Marwick. Be interesting to see if Key does respond. If he refuses on the grounds that an enquiry is already under way, then it could be bad publicity for him.
      “Key refuses to respond to an Ombudsman’s direction.”
      “Key defies due process.”
      “Key is arrogant.”
      If it was the lowly unimportant Eade then Wow!

    • yeshe 24.3

      thx vv .. so good to know.

  24. veutoviper 25

    And another positive this morning (in addition to my comment at 24).

    The Court of Appeal has ordered the Police to release clones of all Dotcom’s electronic records back to KDC asap. (And those of the others).

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11320761

    • ianmac 25.1

      The Court seems to be fair no matter who you are, though you have to spend an awful lot of money to get that fairness.

  25. Saarbo 26

    Matthew Hooten reckons on RNZ, 9 to Noon that Stuart Nash is targeting the National voters, just wondering if someone can help enlighten me how a Labour candidate manages to target an opposition parties vote? This must be more spin (or something) from Hooten, because this souds like absolute bull shit to me.

    • Ad 26.1

      Nash is showing Labour’s other regional hopefuls how to kick provincial National’s ass.
      It’s a big paper majority turnaround to do it, and he’s going to do it.

      • aerobubble 26.1.1

        In the same way a politician got an easy ride by coming back on the list, so many businesses owners got a easy ride by not paying CGT while their Aussie competition does. Parliaments like to make it easy for themselves and their mates despite it harming our democracy and our economy. As Key has proven, cow effluent clogging our rivers, deaths in forestry, mines, and CTV. And now WINZ.

      • Saarbo 26.1.2

        @ad

        How? Hooten gave the impression he is some how doing it by going down a divergent strategy to the Labour Party…I struggle to see how that would be possible, just curious.

    • Bearded Git 27.1

      Puckish-the author of this twaddle failed to address the central issue-the stench surrounding National which permeates all the way to Key’s office.

      It’s called shooting the messenger.

      Where is Jason Ede?

    • tricledrown 27.2

      PR pity you haven’t seen some of Tremains cartoons pertaining to Key Slater Collins!

  26. CnrJoe 28

    from twitter – G.Tiso
    1. A system was in place for subverting the political process. We have been told repeatedly and haughtily that everyone knew about it.
    2. If everyone knew about it, why wasn’t the public told? I agree with Matt Nippert: journalism failed us on this one.
    3. This is why the blanket defense of journalism against its critics is distasteful. The media were the third track.
    4. If there was a failure, where are the consequences: has any political editor, reporter or commentator resigned?
    5. Has any newspaper or TV editor signalled a change in the way things will be done and whom will be asked for comment on politics & policy?
    6. It seems to me that none of this has occurred. All the media people mentioned in the book are still employed, including Glucina & Hooton.
    7. The Panel carries on inviting representatives of fake organizations that have exposed by Hager as government attack dogs, and so forth.
    8. Similarly, the highly-placed journos who ridiculed the story on day 1 are still holding court a month and several stages of grief later.
    9. I hope there are some VERY robust discussions going on behind the scenes about the need for the industry to change.
    10. Until then, all calls to stop being critical of journalists and journalism should be treated as the tone-based derails they are. ENDS.
    followed by
    Brent Edwards ‏@rnzgallerybrent @gtiso All fair points.

  27. Te Reo Putake 29

    Internet Mana final Roadtrip event in Otara Auckland TUESDAY Sept 9 6pm.

    8000 people have attended the small hall meetings so far up and down the country, come along and support!

    https://www.facebook.com/events/946760495350803/

    (I suspect Tiger Mountain meant this for today’s OM, not yesterday’s)

  28. Dialey 30

    interesting insight into John Key in the Herald’s rapid fire interviews on the topic of political heroes. All the other leaders referred to a personal quality or ethical stand or public benefit in the person they identified. John Key had to be asked twice what was it he admired and all he could say was Keith Holyoake elected for 4 terms. Even Coin Craig, who chose the same hero was able to identify a quality that was admirable.

    • Chooky 30.1

      maybe Key doesn’t do human qualities…just winning

    • millsy 30.2

      Craig and Key are not, and will never be half the man that Holyoake was.

      While “Kiwi Keith” despised socialism, he was equally suspicous of free market capitalism, and supported the mixed economy, being a admirer of FDR’s New Deal.

      • Chooky 30.2.1

        yes I like the story about a train traveller from Auckland down at Wellington railway station who could not find their bags and who rang Holyoake up to get help in the middle of the night ….apparently the story is that he went down to the station and helped them find them….like a good NZ farmer looking after his flock

        John Key a Holyoake?….NEVER!….and nor would Colin Craig be ….Holyoake was too ethical and intelligent and too much a pragmatic New Zealander. He would quietly and cynically despise them and Nactional !

        …Winston Peters is more in Holyoake’s old National Party tradition

  29. Tracey 31

    Goff has made his sworn statement to the SIS OIA inquiry

    ” Statement is attached

    Statement to Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security
    Ms Cheryl Gwyn
    Freyberg House, 2 Aitken Street, Wellington

    My primary concern in relation to the release of NZSIS documents in 2011 is that the wider context in which this happened represents a deliberate politicisation of the NZSIS in a way which is unprecedented at least since the Muldoon years.

    For nine years, first as Minister of Foreign Affairs and then as Minister of Defence, I maintained the total confidentiality of briefings from our security intelligence services.

    It has long been the convention that the Minister in charge of the Security Intelligence Service not comment on matters relating to security intelligence.

    That convention applied likewise to Ministers with access to SIS and GCSB briefings and to the Leader of the Opposition.

    As Leader of the Opposition briefings to me were strictly confidential. I did not comment on them. I was asked that the briefings given to me were given without the presence of staff or colleagues. Documents were not to be retained by me nor was I to take notes. I was not to comment to the media on any information I might have received.

    This convention was broken, first by the Prime Minister when he referred publicly to a briefing from the SIS in relation to Israeli backpackers who were suspected to have connections with Mossad, the Israeli Intelligence Service, that he says I was given.

    My position then and now is that I never received a substantive briefing on this matter, notwithstanding what the Director of the SIS may have recorded.

    The reason I can be confident of this is that having been Minister of Foreign Affairs and having dealt with the issue of Mossad agents criminally misappropriating New Zealand passports, I had a keen interest in the issue of Mossad agents operating in New Zealand. I would have recalled anything which might properly have been described as a briefing.

    The only explanation I can guess at is the Director may have said that there was a suspicion around actions of Israeli hitch-hikers in Christchurch at the time of the earthquake but there was nothing to it.

    No information of any substance was given to me or I would have recalled it.

    That, however, is not the issue under investigation.

    The issue is why John Key chose to raise the alleged briefing in a public and political context and how information held by the SIS was released into the public arena.

    My suspicion at the time, confirmed by material disclosed in Nicky Hager’s book Dirty Politics, is that material was disclosed to Cameron Slater who blogs under the name Whale Oil to facilitate his making a specific OIA request.

    Evidence for this is the specificity of Mr Slater’s request, even asking for any diary notation, his statement that he knew that the request was to be expedited expecting the documents to be released immediately, and his statement in a leaked email that he had been ‘sworn to secrecy’ about what he knew.

    The obvious explanation was that he had a source for this information which in the nature of SIS briefings could only have been either within the SIS itself or the Prime Minister or his Office.

    I would hope that the former is unlikely because it would represent improper conduct by the SIS.

    The Prime Minister and his Office however have close links with Cameron Slater whose blogs are used to attack political opponents of the Government.

    No one in the Prime Minister’s office would provide inside knowledge of what the SIS was saying or doing without the implicit or explicit approval of Mr Key.

    That is why I believe Mr Key should be asked to give sworn evidence on precisely who in his office had access to this information and the ground rules he set down for his staff as to how this information was to be treated.

    When I spoke to the Director of the SIS who phoned me suggesting he intended to release the documents immediately, he was coy about whether he knew of the identity of the Mr Slater who had requested the documents sought under the OIA. He then acknowledged that he did know who Cameron Slater was. The documents were to be released immediately until I challenged why the SIS was acting in the way he proposed. He at that point suggested he would delay the release for a number of days.

    It was unwise for the SIS to be drawn into a highly politicised debate. In my long experience of asking Government Departments for information under the OIA, it is unprecedented for a request to be turned around so quickly.

    I believe your Inquiry should examine the full political context of this matter and how and why material which would normally be held confidential was brought into the public and political arena.

    The use of SIS briefing material in this way undermines confidence in its role as an agency of state which has extraordinary powers.

    It effectively politicises the work of the agency and undermines expectations of impartiality and confidentiality in the way in which information which it holds is used.

    I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you and give sworn evidence on the issues under investigation.

    Hon Phil Goff
    MP for Mt Roskill
    8 September 2014 “

    • Puckish Rogue 31.1

      Hes just sad he got outed as telling porkies

      • Chooky 31.1.1

        hardly !…explain yourself!

      • Clemgeopin 31.1.2

        How do you know that Key, his attack dogs or Tucker were not telling porkies when they said that Goff as leader of the opposition was ‘fully briefed’ about it? In this instance, I believe Goff over the National dirty tricks brigade as Goff had no reason to lie about it. Goff has more integrity than these dirty tricks dodgy crooks.

        Anyway, the inquiry is not about that. It is about the dirty tricks that went on behind the scenes about the OIA release of documents to their attack dog. The inquiry can not even cross examine Key, the Minister in charge of SIS, as per the narrow terms set/approved by, wait for it, Key himself!

        This just looks like a Clayton’s BS inquiry to fool the RWNjobs like you and the gullible voters some more.

        • Hanswurst 31.1.2.1

          The inquiry can not even cross examine Key, the Minister in charge of SIS, as per the narrow terms set/approved by, wait for it, Key himself!

          I thought that was a question of the law pertaining to the Inspector General’s powers, rather than terms set down by Key. After all, she’s officially conducting the enquiry under her own motion using the powers of her office, rather than at his behest. Regardless, I’m still not entirely clear on what she can and can’t require of the Prime Minister. She isn’t allowed to conduct an enquiry into his conduct, but can she compel him to give evidence under oath regarding the conduct of those in his office? It would obviously be a step she shouldn’t take lightly, and only if she can’t establish a credible sequence of events by talking to his staff, but she doesn’t seem to be debarred from doing so.

          It is also unclear to me how she would be required to handle any evidence that does clearly implicate the Prime Minister in the leak or suggest that he has misled the public, given that she is not permitted to enquire into his conduct.

          • Clemgeopin 31.1.2.1.1

            There was a news item soon after the inquiry was set up that she would be calling the PM for questioning and it was reported that ‘ John Key says he’s prepared to answer under oath too’ [24 Aug, RNZ]

            If Key is not made to answer questions under oath to arrive at the truth, then such an inquiry is just a whitewash and a sham. A waste of time. If she has no powers to question the PM, then someone that has the ‘powers’ should be asked to do that part of the inquiry. Otherwise, what is the point of this BS exercise? Key is the guy in charge of the department!

  30. Chooky 32

    pretty damning evidence of Key’s misuse of power imo…and SIS information filtered through Slater !

    • Tiger Mountain 32.1

      Phil may be a recent rogernome but he is quite believable on this one, he seemed stitched up by the SIS at the time.

      The wood panelled rooms, leather club chairs and no minutes needed eh what! scenario is all very well for those in the real insiders loop but it illustrates why the current state security apparatus should be disbanded.

      • Chooky 32.1.1

        I believe Phil Goff has always been honest..if he says he was not briefed ….I believe him!

      • Murray Olsen 32.1.2

        I think Goff is an absolute prick and a right wing disaster zone, but I believe he will tell the truth. I suspect the SIS feel almost as much loyalty to NAct as they do to their true seppo masters, and I do not trust them at all. They’re basically the same type as cops, and their behaviour and ethics would be very similar.

        Anything the leader of the opposition is briefed on should be signed by that leader. That’s basic procedure. Why don’t they do it?

        • Clemgeopin 32.1.2.1

          “I think Goff is an absolute prick and a right wing disaster zone”

          What a lot of fashionable ignorant rubbish you are parroting. Goff is one of the most fair, pragmatic, sensible, efficient and decent democratic socialist MPs that is in our parliament.

  31. yeshe 33

    Oz has its own OIA release probs questioning if Abbott may not be eligible to hold office at all ! This is fun …

    http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/09/02/17/35/tony-abbott-may-have-been-ineligible-to-stand-for-election#wwTX87BqviihfDAp.99

  32. Morrissey 34

    Israel committed a massacre in Gaza; there was no “war”.
    Bryan Crump must know that, so why could he not say it?

    Radio New Zealand National, Monday 8 September 2014

    Just after the 5 o’clock news, a trailer featuring the voice of Bryan Crump played….

    BRYAN CRUMP: Coming up on Nights: our correspondent is Nida’ Tuma from the West Bank. She’s been watching the latest war between Israel and Gaza.

    . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    I am sure I was not the only listener to have felt despair when I heard that. On the off chance that he actually cares about his professional obligations, I sent Bryan Crump the following e-mail…..

    Israel committed a massacre in Gaza; there was no “war”

    Dear Bryan,

    In a trailer for your programme, you say that your correspondent Nida’ Tuma has been watching “the latest war between Israel and Gaza”.

    That implies some degree of parity between two evenly matched sides. In fact, what you referred to as a “war” was a massacre against an unarmed civilian population. Israel killed more than two thousand Gazans; according to the United Nations, 69 percent of them were civilians. Four Israeli civilians died. Not one Israeli bomber suffered so much as a scratch. 

    Surely journalists have a duty to use language rigorously and responsibly. Please leave the distortions and lies to the politicians. 

    Yours sincerely,

    Morrissey Breen
    Northcote Point

  33. Tiger Mountain 35

    Internet Mana final Roadtrip event in Otara Auckland TUESDAY Sept 9 6pm
    8000 people have attended the small hall meetings so far up and down the country, come along and support the finale!
    https://www.facebook.com/events/946760495350803/

    • Chooky 35.1

      +100… I wish I could be there!…i wish Internet Mana a great victory in the Election!….they have some very fine policies and candidates led by Hone Harawira and Laila Harre!

  34. Weepus beard 36

    There must be some legs in this Israeli ambassador thing.

    Most New Zealanders, to quote Jong Ki, would not want a bar of Israeli demands on this issue.

    Stupid idiot Jong Ki will only have Murray McCully onto this though. Bound to be a disaster.

  35. CC 37

    With Israel trying to determine NZ’s diplomatic policy, its war crimes against the Palestinians and the visitor permit rorts involving its ex-IDF troops as exposed on Campbell live, why would we want to maintain diplomatic relations?

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