Open mike 08/10/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:58 am, October 8th, 2014 - 173 comments
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173 comments on “Open mike 08/10/2014”

  1. Richard AKA RAWSHARK 1

    Roger Douglas has been wheeled out of his crypt to give us all the way forward for Labour by those caring folks at the Herald.

    The Herald slaps the left yet again with a wet fish called Douglas.

    Douglas thinks we should all adopt the ACT way and things will get much better to concise it.

    How did we go wrong folks, if only we had followed Sir Shitforbrains we would get elected.

    Now I’m not saying there is a little hatred on the left for Sir Moron, but please take a deep breathe after reading this. Don’t go to the Herald, you might have a stroke or worse.

    But if anyone of you want a good gut laugh this morning here’s the link.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11337963

    • tc 1.1

      Granny continues its fine work as a national party rag, I guess hooten is too busy with all his other media gigs and prebbles a bit compromised after his act campaign leadership worked so well.

    • David H 1.2

      I read it yesterday but the comments should be a hoot if they haven’t been censoring them. Only 35 comments in a day, they must have been using the big delete button, as they didn’t want the shrivelled one to have a heart attack. But you need to have a heart first.

    • Not a PS Staffer 1.3

      The Herald did not publish my comment!

      • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 1.3.1

        I’d suggest to people that they also post a copy here, after they upload their comments on that rag and indicating here that is what they have done.

    • Clemgeopin 1.4

      Douglas should worry about the popularity of ACT instead of advising us. What an arrogant fool.

      • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 1.4.1

        And where was Douglas while writing that? Where is he these days, while drawing on the NZ people’s money?

    • greywarshark 1.5

      @ Richard aka Rawshark 1
      Here is a good fishgut laugh. I couldn’t resist bringing some mirth into your day. Doctors recommend a laugh to keep the mind healthy and functioning. Here is your morning dose if you choose to accept it – from Monty Python – fish slapping dance 27 sec and 2nd longer of Palin pontificating.

      • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 1.5.1

        🙂 ahh you know what I like.

        Monty Pyhon fan since a kid.

        Best is the silly walk by Cleese which Colin thunderbirds Craig has adopted a style of.

  2. Colonial Rawshark 2

    Ebola in Spain: slack procedures, poor discipline, lacksadaisical attitude, poor equipment and official lies

    Nurse contracts ebola from infected (now dead) patient in Spain. Several others now hospitalised.

    Decades of BS managerialism and under funding dangerously worsens performance when it actually matters.

    Who do you believe – officials who say strict quarantine was instituted straight away, or the hospital staff who say patient was just kept in a general ward surrounded by others.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/07/ebola-crisis-substandard-equipment-nurse-positive-spain

    • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 2.1

      Not being sarcastic much here CV, but if we ever get an Ebola case the way Nastinal are behaving they would take the patient on a meet the people tour. Poor people.

    • Scott1 2.2

      As with all these things the difference will be definitional.
      A quarantine procedure was initiated. It is strict relative to just dumping everyone in a pile. But it involves people probably getting a lot closer to each other than we would be comfortable with.

    • Tracey aka Rawshark 2.3

      Lots more people die annually from influenza

      • Tom Jackson 2.3.1

        Yes, but the fatality rate for influenza is much lower than that for Ebola. Having said that, the Spanish flu was far worse in terms of the combination of lethality and ability to spread than Ebola will ever be.

        • Tracey aka Rawshark 2.3.1.1

          Am not sayong Ebola isnt bad but the fixation is out of proportion to the many other lesser diseases killing millions more.

          • Colonial Rawshark 2.3.1.1.1

            please see my reply below. Maybe we’ll look back on this ebola scare in 12 months and think it was an interesting but short lived minor fizzle. And maybe we won’t, with infected numbers currently rising exponentially, killing hundreds of healthcare workers this year alone.

            • Tracey aka Rawshark 2.3.1.1.1.1

              The key word in my comment is fixation…

              I was alive thirty odd years ago when Ebola last hit the headlines in a major way.

              • Colonial Rawshark

                As long as you realise that the current outbreak is around 15x more severe than the one you remember from your younger days, in terms of probable fatalities and cases, and was isolated to provincial rural villages, not million person cities like Freetown and Madrid.

                • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark

                  The passing time might have generated a really virulent strain?

                  • tc

                    4 strains of Ebola with the Zaire strain having more than 80% fatality rate.

                  • McFlock

                    Nah. It’s hitting populated areas with good road communications.

                    • greywarshark

                      @ McFlock
                      I understand that was how the Aids virus spread so effectively. It was transmitted by itinerant truck drivers having a quickie along their route. It was supposed to start off between males, but wasn’t long before it showed up in females.

                      The desire for a short break results in known locations being places for prostitutes to wait. I saw in Italy a truck driver hop down, near a roundabout, leave his engine running, and then back again and drive off, and a prostitute then waiting at the roadside. So I think that it could be surmised that sex would have taken place, and perhaps a pee after, a relief stop.

                    • McFlock

                      Well, the big example is the Spanish flu 1918, which was partially related to troop movements and civilian relocations from late WW1.

                      Basically, travel networks affect how quickly a disease spreads geographically. Economic or war refugees (or refugees from the disease itself in an established epidemic), standard migration, and the close quarters of travel and shared facilities increase transmission, and population density increases opportunities for transmission, too.

                      ISTR that the first few ebola outbreaks within local populations were in relatively isolated areas, so could burn themselves out more quickly.

                      As a rule of thumb, once you hit a city or traffic route, you need stronger artificial controls, education, and quarantine efforts. The NZ Health Act, for example, gives the Health minister dictatorial powers that would make CERA-brownlee cum at the thought.

                  • Ergo Robertina

                    The passing time might have generated a really virulent strain?

                    The Guardian ran a Q and A with one of the researchers who identified Ebola in 1976 in which he was asked about it becoming more infectious through mutation:

                    ‘Yes, that really is the apocalyptic scenario. Humans are actually just an accidental host for the virus, and not a good one. From the perspective of a virus, it isn’t desirable for its host, within which the pathogen hopes to multiply, to die so quickly. It would be much better for the virus to allow us to stay alive longer.

                    Could the virus suddenly change itself such that it could be spread through the air?

                    ‘Like measles, you mean? Luckily that is extremely unlikely. But a mutation that would allow Ebola patients to live a couple of weeks longer is certainly possible and would be advantageous for the virus.

                    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/04/ebola-zaire-peter-piot-outbreak

      • Colonial Rawshark 2.3.2

        Hi Tracey, to be honest I struggle with this kind of comment, which I see all the time for instance on Twitter. To me it represents a misunderstanding of both risk and uncertainty. The format is “x phenomena kills more people a year than Ebola ever has in its history.”

        This is usually true as well, given that in its known history Ebola has killed only a few thousand people.

        The difference is this – things like influenza or traffic accidents or gun violence in the USA are a very well described, thoroughly understood, self limiting phenomena which have been observed over long periods of time.

        None of these descriptions match what is happening now re: ebola.

        • Tracey aka Rawshark 2.3.2.1

          I am referring to the media fixation Cv. When we are not being kept in fear by media focus on killings, murder, car accidents and acts of war, we are kept cringing for fear of our own bodies.

          Of course have strategies to deal with Ebola… Develop vaccines… But blast it in every paper news and radio report? Nah its just a continuation of keep the sheeple fearful. Its the fear de jour.

          • Colonial Rawshark 2.3.2.1.1

            I agree with your general point and usually I would back it 100% as I saw the media/govt nonsense around swine flu etc.

            However I understand the mathematical power of exponential growth in infections with an ebola R0 infection rate currently rated at ~1.75 (ea infected person is currently infecting 1.75 more) and until that comes down much closer to 1.0 (or of course ideally less than 1.0), the western world will have a serious problem within the next 6 months.

            Currently, the number of cases is doubling every 3 weeks.

            • TheContrarian 2.3.2.1.1.1

              Ebola is easily contained and has an extremely low R0 when compared to Measles or the flu.

    • joe90 2.4

      Damn facts.
      /

      The last sentence is the key point:

      To stop this outbreak, more needs to be done to implement – on a much larger scale – well-known protective and preventive measures. Abundant evidence has documented their effectiveness

      http://www.virology.ws/2014/10/06/who-on-ebola-virus-transmission/

      http://www.virology.ws/ebolavirus/

      • greywarshark 2.4.1

        I don’t think we can trust our governments to run any real hazardous disease outbreak to the necessary level. In the USA he private profit approach will prevent whole-hearted effort there and then worries about affordability by states, especially the poorer ones, when viewing the lists of tasks government needs to do, also what private companies need to do and the bills that the patients and their family will have to face.

        USA citizen Michael Katakis spoke to Wallace Chapman on Sunday 6th about his despair of the USA. He quotes the venality of the country there in a tale relating to his wife’s hospitalisation. While she was home recovering the hospital billing department phoned and asked when they could expect payment for $1200 that was outstanding. He explained that the insurance company had advised that $75,000 had been paid, and that a further $80,000 was pending. The clerk explained the bill was for doctors’ fees, and they were separate from the hospital fees paid by the insurance company. This was after paying $1,000 a month for a health insurance cover, and a $10,000 excess on hospital charges. So he had to manage finding $27,000 before the company would agree to cover them. He also had to sell most of their goods to cover all the costs including living costs before his wife eventually died.
        Michael Katakis – Traveller ( 22′ 31″ ) Sunday, 6.10.2014 http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/sunday

        In NZ we have hospitals under stress with managers with a grab bag of practices they can use to appear to be managing efficiently which includes employing contractors for ‘short’ periods instead of having permanent staff doing the work for less. At present we have doctors leaving a lower south island hospital because they can’t practice effectively and are under budget pressure all the time. The managerial style that sets targets and controls from above, rather than working with the doctors and staff is a barrier to efficiency and effectiveness.
        This radionz piece refers to a debit sum of $16 million at the Southern District Health Board.
        http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/regional/256398/%27changes-needed%27-at-southern-dhb
        At the end related pieces with a list of woes:

        DHB takes dispute to Serious Fraud Office
        Ryall credits targets for stable ship
        Southern DHB deficit over $15m
        DHB’s funding below inflation – Labour
        DHB: crackdown won’t affect care

        In 2006 Swann an IT professional at the Otago DHB was charged with fraud of $16 million. What’s the bet that this huge cost is still weighing down the unfortunate hospital board ever since….
        Further details of an alleged $16.9 million fraud at the Otago District Health Board were revealed in Parliament yesterday.
        Mr Ryall told Parliament that Swann had bought a 50m former marine research vessel in Hawaii and refitted it to be a luxury launch.
        The Otago Daily Times recently reported that the board was seeking to recover its losses through a High Court civil claim, which names Swann and 19 other defendants and lawyers, trustees, company directors and companies….

        A question asked – Is he [Mr Hodgson] telling the house that no one at the DHB asked how a former bankrupt and hospital manager on $200,000 a year could afford such extravagance over such a period of time?”
        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10411886

        • Colonial Rawshark 2.4.1.1

          Swann served 1 month in prison for each $300K he defrauded society. Sounds like a sweetheart deal compared to what people might get for stealing a car or pinching $10,000 from their employer.

          • greywarshark 2.4.1.1.1

            Colonial Rawshark
            Did you know that or just know where to look it up? You are so well informed. Are you a …savant or have a photogenic/graphic memory? Or just lay newspapers on the floor and soak up facts through your soles??

  3. parker on tv3 confirming that ..yes..!..labour too are keen that we go to war…

    ..against this latest version of ‘the bad guys’..

    ..(question:..how many innocent men/women/children have been blown to pieces by american drones…in the period of these executions by isis..?..

    ..i’m picking it is far more than the 5-6 people executed by isis..

    ..where is labours’/our indignation at that..?..no..?..)

    ..and from key i understand we will be doing ‘humanitarian work’..that we ‘specialise in’..

    ..which actually involves targeting sites to be bombed..

    ..(which is..one of the more unusual definitions of ‘humanitarian work’ i have heard in awhile..)

    ..and of course..this will make nz a legitimate ‘soft’ target for retaliation/terror-attacks..

    ..really great to see that labour didn’t just have a knee-jerk reaction there..eh..?

    ..and an unseemly rush to war…

    ..(oh..!..hang on..!..)

    • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 3.1

      On this one PU I want Isis wiped out. I want to see them suffer. The beheadings are atrocious and innocent people are dieing.

      Sometimes you have to fight.

      at times war is appropriate.

      On this topic I’m all for action. The bigger the better. I’d be prepared to defend them against slavery, forced prostitution and conversion or die.

      They are beheading humanitarians just like most left people are.

      • phillip ure 3.1.1

        @ richard..

        maybe you need to see some videos of those innocent men/women/children that have been blown apart by american drones..?

        ..you may also find you find that ‘atrocious’…

        ..and yes..’innocent people are dieing’ (sic..) there too..

        ..eh..?

        ..and you are all gung-ho that we help ‘target’ those drones/bombers..

        ..as our ‘humanitarian’-effort in the region..?

        ..eh..?

        ..it’s all pretty black and white thru yr eyes..eh..?

        ..and america is the one wearing the white hat..eh..?

        • Herodotus 3.1.1.1

          Tell the Kurdish people that Phillip, that their innocence is not worth protecting. As the U S solutionis not palatable prey tell what is a more acceptable solution ?especially given the lack of the UN’s ability to solve any conflict or to successfully take any action against any leaders in regard to genocide or crimes against humanity.

          • Colonial Rawshark 3.1.1.1.1

            All well meaning comments. And the Peshmerga would be able to hold off ISIS no problem if ISIS weren’t now equipped with the latest in US armour and artillery. And supported by many many Sunni ex-Iraqi Forces only recently trained up by the USA.

            • Tracey aka Rawshark 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Howxdo you see the problem being resolved?

              • Colonial Rawshark

                I do not believe that there is any resolution; just awful choices and worse ones.

            • Herodotus 3.1.1.1.1.2

              Whilst Isis have acquired equipment from the army I would expect the Turkish army to be better trained & better equiped than this group.
              The Isis forces would be exposed if they do face the turkishy army around Kobani, which to me looks likely would take a more traditional & conventional battle, with air support working in co ordination with a ground force attack.
              Unfortunately in such cases there is almost the justification othat the means of addressing such conflicts as by viewing the response by ” the lesser of 2 evils”. The problem I see is that “our” tradional view that of winning a conflict are not relevant in today’s world, or that those in the US even have an idea of what a successful outcome is

              • Colonial Rawshark

                Yes the Kobani battle could be won by a major mobilisation of Turkish forces. But the Turks are unlikely to do that because they see what is happening there as a fortuitous case of ISIS taking out a long standing enemy for them, the Kurds.

          • phillip ure 3.1.1.1.2

            @ hero..aahh..!..the ‘plucky’ kurds..we are there to help them..eh..?

            ..try and wrap yr head around this then..(a story/link i posted this morn..)

            http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/07/us-kurds-iraq-isis-massacre-syria-kobani

            “..Why did the US help the Kurds in Iraq – but leave Isis to massacre them in Syria?..

            ..The fall of Kobani is a microcosm for a policy that is doomed to fail.

            It was an avoidable tragedy..”

            (cont..)

            ..eh..?

            • Herodotus 3.1.1.1.2.1

              Whilst the U.S. have their problems in their Wild West , john Wayne gun ho attitude, unfortunately with all their short commings, there appear no other alternatives, as what other confederation is willing to enter to attempt to halt any crimes against humanity ? the UN ha straditionally been lacking
              As Obama does not confide with me as to his strategy and what outcomes he desires I cannot comment as to why the U.S. allowed the Syrian situation, perhaps they were unwilling to enter Syrian territory for obvious reasons.
              Should the Isis issue be solved the Kurds situation will not have progressed and they will continue to be a culture persecuted 🙁

              • y’ see..hero..

                ..this little/latest clusterfuck is a direct outcome of the ‘crime against humanity’ that was the american invasion of iraq..

                ..(and if i am scratching for something good to say about clark.i can cite her standing up against the screaming/hysterical war-mongers of the time..

                ..and not making us part and parcel of that ‘crime’..)

                ..and at that time the tory armchair warriors were jonesing/frothing for war..

                ..and simon power coined/cribbed his defining political-statement..

                ..when he said we should be ‘all the way..with george w..!’

                ..key is also on record voicing his disgust at clark for not taking us to that war..

                ..so that now he can’t even wait to be asked..he is that eager to be a spear-carrier..comes as no real surprise..

                ..i knew/predicted that if key won the election..he would rush to take us to war..

                ..mind you..going on parkers/labours ‘consent’ to this plan..they wd have been no different to key..)

                ..and so..hero..us getting involved in another ‘long war’ in the middle east..

                ..is the answer..eh..?…

                ..btw..what was the question..?

        • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 3.1.1.2

          AHH no P U you went off track there. Putting word in my mouth and claiming I had a pro USA stance. That was not in my comment at all. I think you owe me an apology for that.

          perhaps I should have been clearer. I did not mention the war mongering USA and I agree with you on them. But and it’s a big but, Isis is a total different kettle of bad.

          I only want ISIS wiped out to the last man if possible.

          As for bush and Blair I’m still waiting for the Haig to charge them., as for the USA the people for the most part are ok, there political structure is not. Won’t delve into it I suspect you know as much as I do or more on that score regarding military manufacturing and the links to government.

        • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 3.1.1.3

          In Albania, My Grandfather pre Hoxha was a top ranking general for King Zog,
          He’s famous there so are my family for it, so am I. So much so the then President wanted to meet the son of the son of him.

          During WW2 he led the Bali Kombatar fighting 3 invaders the Italians, the Germans, and later hoxha’s communists, My whole family was eventually after a 1 month fight from their castle estate, finally defeated by a bomb blowing the castle doors off.

          Then they shot all of them that we’re of age, I’ve met all the survivors 8 years ago, as they had been looking for my father who escaped, but found me as he passed away years ago, reunited I found a shocking story.
          The things they did to the survivors was so shocking I havn’t the time to tell you.

          So when you don’t want to help, you think it’s not your business, you end up leaving REAL stories of REAL atrocities.

          I care, I care a lot about all people, what I don’t care about, is people with no empathy what so fucking ever for the plight of others.

          I have a Albanian doco on what happened as told by grandfathers daughter, my fathers, sister, she retells the story of their final stand, what they did to her would shake your foundations.

          If you ever want to see it i’ll get it translated for you. At my cost, eventually when I get a pay rise.

          Sometimes you have to fight for democracy, the way things are going we may need to fight here.

          So harden up and grow a pair. Peace has to be fought for sometimes.

          • phillip ure 3.1.1.3.1

            did you feel the same way about saddam hussein..?

            ..and about gaddaffi..?

            ..that we had to fight them there..so we don’t need to fight them ‘here’..

            ..(you are sounding like the hysterics who built the guns on north head..

            ..’cos the russians were coming..eh..?..)

            ..and if you find that thinking back that yes..you did support overthrowing those ‘evil’ men..hussein and gaddaffi..

            ..you need to look at yr own propensity to be suckered by the propaganda-du-jour..eh..?..

            ..did you support them being overthrown – because they were the evil-du-jour..?

      • Scott1 3.1.2

        I’m happy to see ISIS wiped out – but sending troups over there may not help at all. ISIS is the renamed alquaeda in iraq which only exists as a significant issue because the west decided to go over there and blow stuff up in the first place.

        Beheadings are bad – but they are only beheading these people on videos to ask you to come and bomb them. (and to get advertising so that they can recruit more soldiers). They need the bombing to distract the people from the fact that they can’t run the country and that they are made up largely of foreign invaders.

        So to state phil’s point in pragmatic terms – will sending troups make the situation better or worse? So far it has made it worse.

      • Tracey aka Rawshark 3.1.3

        Its hard to see how more killing will help but doing nothing while people are executed and people are killed in their homes from the various bombings around the world will help either.

        More killing has not proven successful to date…

        We tried to kill taleban… Then we tried to kill al quaeda and now IS has sprung up…. So more killing doesnt solve the problem.

        Parker is talking like cullen, who would have been at home in national.

      • Colonial Rawshark 3.1.4

        On this one PU I want Isis wiped out. I want to see them suffer. The beheadings are atrocious and innocent people are dieing.

        You just asked for another decade long, hundred thousand white troops on the ground in a Muslim country, war.

        Just remember that was how we got here. And you want to do it again?

        • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 3.1.4.1

          FFS grow a pair. On this I’m right your feeble don’t start another war , blow what I said all out of proportions is a joke.

          Far out, they say there’s infighting amongst lefts, well all you lot do is argue for the sake of it sometimes. You lot like nothing more than rounding on people and I’ve had a hard day so fucking shut up.

          If your family was about to be wiped out , your girls sold to some fighter for sex, and told to convert or die, or you had to run away, you’d be wanting some fucking help to.

          Fuck pissed me off their you did.

      • Tom Jackson 3.1.5

        The optimal strategy would be to mostly leave them be. If necessary use defensive airstrikes to prevent expansion at the periphery. Otherwise, leave them alone and the people who they purport to rule will get tired of them in no time or the movement will split. Intervention just gives them what they want – foreign devils to blame everything on.

        • alwyn 3.1.5.1

          You had better hope that they will just fade away then and that this story in The Telegraph is only a fairy story then.
          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11064133/Islamic-State-seeks-to-use-bubonic-plague-as-a-weapon-of-war.html
          If there is any truth in it will be vastly worse than Ebola or the 9/11 attacks won’t it?

          • Tom Jackson 3.1.5.1.1

            …and Iraq was chock full of weapons of mass destruction.

            How can you fall for it every time?

            The problem with using biological agents is that at least some the people delivering them typically don’t want to be infected themselves. Given the biosecurity needed for this and the indiscriminate nature of the weapon, such bioweapons are really a non-starter.

            The same goes for chemical weapons. Terrorists don’t need ISIS to supply them as they can make them themselves as the Aum Supreme Truth cult did. The problem with chemical weapons is that they aren’t suited for terrorism. The Aum cult would have killed far more people with a couple of nail bombs than it did with its home made nerve gas. Gas is a battlefield weapon for use against unprotected mass infantry formations (which is why Saddam had it). It’s next to useless as a weapon of terror.

            This is all talk. Terrorists don’t use these weapons because they don’t work. They’ve tried before, and in the end you are better off using conventional weapons.

            Read this. It doesn’t work.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorine_bombings_in_Iraq

            • politikiwi 3.1.5.1.1.1

              Completely agree with your comments, Tom.

            • alwyn 3.1.5.1.1.2

              They did seem to be talking about biological weapons in relatively enclosed places for the distribution, not chemical weapons on a battlefield.
              In terms of delivering them by people who don’t want to be infected these groups don’t seem to have much trouble getting enough people to be suicide bombers to cause a lot of trouble. The four planes involved in 9/11 had about 20 al Qaeda people involved who were by definition suicide forces. The didn’t have any trouble finding them did they?

              • Colonial Rawshark

                The West has played its part in cultivating new generations of extremists in the middle east. Best to change course, don’t you think.

                BTW in terms of casualties, the west has killed 1,000x more Muslims in middle eastern countries than Muslims have killed westerners in western countries.

              • Tom Jackson

                They did seem to be talking about biological weapons in relatively enclosed places for the distribution, not chemical weapons on a battlefield. In terms of delivering them by people who don’t want to be infected these groups don’t seem to have much trouble getting enough people to be suicide bombers to cause a lot of trouble. The four planes involved in 9/11 had about 20 al Qaeda people involved who were by definition suicide forces. The didn’t have any trouble finding them did they?

                If you were to successfully create an epidemic of bubonic plague in Britain or the United States, you would have to be able to do it on a scale that would render their first world health systems ineffective at responding to infections. But if their containment systems fail to cope, then it would automatically become a worldwide epidemic that would affect the poorer countries where the terrorists come from far worse than the targets. That makes no sense given the goals of groups like IS.

                You also need to securely transport the biological agents to the target area and find a way to release them that will be effective. This is really hard to do. Chemical weapons have to be released on a grand scale to work (such as Saddam’s artillery barrages against Iranian infantry). Biological agents need a similarly wide spread to be effective if they’re ever going to be, and terrorists don’t have that luxury.

                If chemical and biological weapons were of any use, the major powers would spend a lot of money on them. They don’t. They buy nukes, because nukes work. As for terrorists getting hold of a nuke. The very idea is risible.

              • adam

                Two things alwyn:

                1. There is documentation missing from the 9/11 investigation – which many suspect, (including the us military, which is not a bastion of left wingers by the way) points the finger at Saudi Arabia.

                2. The problem with blaming al Qaeda was always the lack of technical ability. Yes al Qaeda were good at fight a guerrilla war, with people willing to die, but they lacked the skills to coordinate what we call 9/11. I:E- Piloting and logistical skill set to perform said attacks. Now go back to point 1.

                So the question for me, is why do we want to fight a rag bag bunch of criminals? When there is a rogue state, which is supposed to be our allie, who attacked our other supposed allie?

                We look to be entering a perpetual state of war economy, to prop up a failing economic system. Rather than look at the underlying social and economic issues.

        • Draco T Bastard 3.1.5.2

          The optimal strategy would be to mostly leave them be.

          That and stopping arms being supplied to them.

    • Clean_power 3.2

      Mr Ure, I hope you also want ISIS wiped out. Do you? Do you?
      Or are you a secret supporter of these criminals? Maybe your hatred of America is even bigger.

      • phillip ure 3.2.1

        @clean power..

        ..you are seeking a simple answer to a complex issue/problem..

        ..an issue/problem that has been fuelled exacerbated by the west/invasion of iraq..etc..

        ..and an outcome that was predicted by many of those opposed to that initial-invasion….

        ..and that is at heart..a muslim sectarian war…sunni vs. shia..

        ..(b.t.w..where were you back then..?..c.p..?..

        ..were you one of those insistant we must ‘wipe out’ that ‘evil’ saddam hussein..eh..?

        ..followed by yr support for getting rid of that ‘evil’ gaddaffi..eh..?

        ..can we conclude you are just a serial war-monger..?

        ..easily swayed/driven to blood-lust..?..

        .d’yareckon..?..)

        • Clean_power 3.2.1.1

          @ Mr Ure: your “reply” does not answer my questions: are you for or against ISIS?
          So, you believe this is a “muslim sectarian war” that poses no risk to the rest of the world. Incredible!

          Maybe your anti-West position is supported by other reasons unknown to the readers.

          • phillip ure 3.2.1.1.1

            @ clean power..

            “..Maybe your anti-West position is supported by other reasons unknown to the readers…”

            now i am fascinated..(and you seem to be breathing a bit heavier..)

            ..what on earth could those ‘reasons unknown’ be..?

            • phillip ure 3.2.1.1.1.1

              please clean-power..i am on the edge of my seat here..!

              ..what..in yr mind..are these ‘reasons unknown’..?

              ..am i a ‘secret agent’ of some murky power..?

              .(you aren’t confusing me with slater..are ya..?..

              ..he’s yr ‘secret-agent/murky-power’ go-to-person..eh..?..)

              ..(hang on..! i do have a copy of the koran on my bookshelf..!

              ..tho’..in my defence..it is one of a mix of different theological-tracts..whew..!..)

              ..please..!..do tell..!

              ..(and chrs 4 the belly-laffs..eh..?..)

              • swordfish

                And answer came there none.

                Which makes me just a little suspicious that Clean power is some sort of SIS Black Ops type.

                His (or her – probably his) framing of the issue as “Are you for or against ISIS” reminds me very much of an Israeli apologist called Hans who used to inflict various gotcha-style propaganda/rhetorical strategies on unsuspecting participants in The New Statesman discussion threads a few years ago (so much so that I used to refer to him as Hasbara Hans).***

                Whenever people were discussing an article / opinion piece on Israel’s bombing or starvation of Gaza, dear old Hans would pop up to ask everyone whether they were For or Against the Evil Hamas. A very clear propaganda technique.

                A year or two back, we all heard about SIS black ops, aiming to sew dissention on Left-leaning Blogs (although you’d have to wonder why they bother, there’s enough in-fighting going on as it is). Impossible to be sure, but there’s just a slight whiff of trouble-making underlying Clean power’s comments (taken collectively) since he suddenly turned up here in April.

                He’s mainly focussed on making anti-Cunliffe comments (arguing the need for a leadership change 3 months out from the election and, ironically enough, accusing Cunliffe of sewing dissention in the Party) and anti-Hager comments as well as accusing Matt McCarten of being a “Mana Mole”, attacking sections of the Labour Party as representing “Left-wing extremism” and numerous comments on The Greens’ alleged “insanity”, suggesting Len Brown will go down in history as a philanderer and an incompetent, while pushing the Tory meme that Labour risks becoming a minor component of the Opposition after the 2014 Election. All the while playing the role of concerned Labour supporter.

                I can’t help but notice a few signs of trying to create dissention – attacking Cunliffe and his advisors and demanding he stand down before this years Election, attacking the Left, but at the same time also making numerous comments blaming the ABCs for various things and attacking Mallard and King – before going on to change his tune somewhat after the Election (June 18: “The dirty hands of King and Mallard are all over this” / Sep 30 “Mallard knows loyalty to no one” / October 4 on Mallard “It seems the Labour Party and his voters love the man !”)

                Clean power may just be a Right-leaning Labour bloke who advocates for Shane Jones one minute, then attacks Jones’s ABC faction the next, but I’ll be keeping an eye out for any more Hasbara-style techniques.

                ***Hasbara = Various Propaganda techniques / Rhetorical strategies that Israel’s supporters in the West are expected to carry out on social media and in the MSM (letters to the Editor etc) on behalf of Israel.

                • greywarshark

                  swordfish 3.31
                  Interesting.
                  While we are thinking of that sainted country – 1 June 2014
                  Israel renews restrictions on nuclear whistleblower Mordechai Vanunu
                  Despite serving 18 years in prison, including 11 in solitary confinement, Vanunu is forbidden from traveling and speaking to the media. Recently, he was denied a permit to speak before the British Parliament, following an invitation by 54 MPs.

                  http://972mag.com/israel-to-renew-restrictions-on-nuclear-whistleblower-mordechai-vanunu/91564/

                • @ swordfish..

                  “..And answer came there none…”

                  ..and i am bummed about that..

                  ..i mean..imagine finding out what yr ‘reasons unknown’ are..?

                  ..i was so looking forward to the fevered imaginings of that little mind..

                  ..i guess being anti-war..and in general..not believing/calling-out the bullshit..

                  ..isn’t enough…

                  • Murray Rawshark

                    CP has probably got you pegged as one of the hash smoking assassins from that old Middle Eastern sect, Mr Ure. The evidence is in your own posts. 😛

          • greywarshark 3.2.1.1.2

            @ clean power
            Why don’t you go and fight in the war. Offer yourself to the forces when they decide to go and fight in the Middle East. Your motto – have convictions, will fight and die and kill for them. And this feeling of yours will remain whether it is helpful to solving the problems and bringing world peace or not. It is a feeling, it is not real thought or understanding of the problem and the disaster unfolding. People like you don’t make me feel safer from menace, you just increase it.

        • phillip ure 3.2.1.2

          btw..f.y.i…i don’t ‘hate’ america…

          ..i have lived there..new york is my favourite city..

          ..i think americans are the most open/friendly people in the world..(nz’ers cd learn a thing or two from them in that area..tight-lipped little ‘i don’t know you!’s that we are..)

          ..like everyone else i am steeped in american culture/music etc..

          ..i do however admit to ‘hating’ their blood-thirsty/cynical abuses of their global-power..

          ..in everything there are nuances..eh..?

          ..’black and white’ are very rare..

          • greywarshark 3.2.1.2.1

            @ phillip ure
            You would find Michael Katakis interesting. Wallace Chapman interview on Sunday 5/10/2014.

          • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 3.2.1.2.2

            That’s better. I have the same mentality.

            But Isis are not Mulsim, I have many Muslim family in Albania, I’m non religious. However true Muslims would never do this sort of thing. Isis have earned their wiping out. Islamic state my arse.

            The US defended Saudia Arabia and pushed them back. Bush senior had the decency to halt there, but along came the war monger Bush Jnr with an agenda like I’d not seen in a while. I reiterate Bush Jnr and Blair should be done at the Haig.

        • The Al1en 3.2.1.3

          “..can we conclude you are just a serial war-monger..?..easily swayed/driven to blood-lust..?..”

          Knowing how you like to bang on about an issue when you think it has mileage, it’s not all about the deaths of 5 westerners.
          Paraphrasing the fighting Kurdish women on TV, actively engaging isis on a daily basis in a fight for their survival, it’s ‘kill or be killed’. And they are fighting a well equipped, combat experienced, motivated ruthless murderous enemy.
          You are happy to leave them to it to fend for themselves, knowing the consequences of failure are rape and slavery as bounty of war?

          Maybe you don’t have enough invested to to get over being right on for the sake of it, but I support those brave women and hope they get all the protection the UN have to offer.

          “.d’yareckon..?..)”

      • Murray Rawshark 3.2.2

        Quick, Clean-power, take this test. If your score is above room temperature in Fahrenheit, we might be able to explain why the situation is a little more complicated.
        I suspect we won’t, though.

        http://www.free-iqtest.net/

    • Skinny 3.3

      There should be worldwide condemnation of America and their continued intervention in other countries affairs. These invasions by the yanks leave nothing but carnage. How many times have they invaded a country, taken out a so called despot dictator, only to pull out leaving the place in ruin and creating a civil war in their wake. Look at Sadam and the weapons of mass destruction nonsense, and the US backed tooling up of Bin Ladin, only for him too turn on them. Now this latest mess in Syria where they once supported the former leader to the tune of billions, only too take him out.

      The whole American economy revolves around their war machine where 1 in 5 (last time I looked) jobs are military/arms related.

      Your right Phil, our involvement does make us a very likely target for some nasty terrorist attack. What on earth Key thinks he is doing by telling the World “Our SIS will have a role like identifying targets for drone strikes and bombing missions.”

      Most of us shudder to think if that happens we can expect to be a target, bringing the doors wide open for Uncle Sam to setup shop here, Key-National are already smoothing the way by the looks of our likely involvement.

      • phillip ure 3.3.1

        @ skinny..

        “.. How many times have they invaded a country, taken out a so called despot dictator, only to pull out leaving the place in ruin and creating a civil war in their wake..”

        ..that..or similar..over 50 times since the end of the second world war..(57 ..i think..)

        ..each of them of course ..black and white battles of ‘good’ against ‘evil’…eh..?

        ..the ‘evil’-du-jour…

        • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 3.3.1.1

          Agreed PU but your mixing the issues, just because they previously fucked up big style doesn’t mean this time is wrong too.

        • The Lone Haranguer 3.3.1.2

          Be careful what you ask for Skinny. Theres a small but growing group in the US who seem to think the way forward is to pull all the US troops home, leave the Middle East to sort its own crap, and use the newly home troops to actually enforce their border with Mexico, to upgrade the war on drugs, and evict all the non residents from the US, and then seal their borders. No money for illegals, no medical help for illegals – the only help they would get was to get them back to their home country.

          And change the rules and get the oil out of Alaska and live independent of the rest of the world. And invite the UN head office to go to somewhere nice like Somlia.

          Hey 50 years of that and the USA would be like an upsized Japan. 🙂

          As one wag said recently “why spend all that money fighting “them” in the Middle East and having them hate us, when we can pull out and do nothing and they can still hate us for free”

      • Chooky 3.3.2

        +100 pu and Skinny…John Key is making New Zealanders and New Zealand a target…this is NOT in New Zealander’s interests!

    • westiechick 3.4

      you mean 5-6 westeners don’t you Phillip? Syrians and Iraqis are people too although their (mass) executions don’t get the headlines. IS are bad guys. However, the worst guys, Bush/Blair et al started this whole mess. National wanted a piece of that too. Thank God Helen had the sense to keep us out of it.

      • phillip ure 3.4.1

        it is the execution of those 5-6 westerners that is being used to whip up war-fever…

        ..the west shrugs its’ shoulders at arabs killing each other..

        • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 3.4.1.1

          Them, villages, towns, cities as ISIS continue to march on for more converts to their version of Islam. Will they stop, not until they are.

          Your safe here in NZ be glad about that. But for those in the firing line that’s not an option.

    • Murray Rawshark 3.5

      I don’t know what the answer to the problems in Iraq and Syria are, but given what Western military interventions have achieved in that region in the past, I’m pretty sure it’s not sending troops. The problems there now are happening on a stage mounted by the US and UK, and they have no ideas of doing anything except what hasn’t worked in the past.

      Israeli atrocities in Gaza were far worse. Why didn’t the US bomb Tel Aviv, if that’s the way to stop vicious extremists?

  4. Pat O'Dea 4

    Kiwi Blood for US trade deal?

    Ex Wall Street banker John Key is very keen to rush us into the latest round of murderous blood letting in the Middle East.

    Have you wondered why?

    Just listen in horror as an outraged John Key delivers a screaming skull pro war speech in 2003, to know.

    “Our traditional allies are in there, (in this agreement). We, in our name are missing.

    “MIA, just like it was in the war in Iraq. Missing.

    “And this country will… This country will pay for that, don’t you worry about that. Don’t you worry about that!

    “There will be no free trade arrangement here in New Zealand.

    “There will be one thing we won’t have to worry about, that is container ships going to America, because there will none of them leaving from out of this country, because there will no free trade arrangement……”
    John Key, Parliament, 2003

    Thanks to Travellerev @ A Wider Perspective

    • vto 4.1

      Direct evidence from John Key himself that he believes we must kill foreigners to be allowed to sell our wares in the US.

      Disgusting.

      What a lowly human being.

      In fact, his beliefs and actions make him worse than the beheaders in IS.

      • Pat O'Dea 4.1.1

        In 2003 in parliament on behalf of his US masters John Key impotently screams and threatens trade sanctions against New Zealand to force us into war. (Threats that were never carried out).

        In a nightmarish reversal we now have this disgusting quisling in charge.

        John Key’s 2003l Hitler like rant in support of war and demands that we submit to his hollow threats of trade sanctions, should never be forgotten.
        How many more New Zealand families would be mourning their war dead now if we had given in to this traitor’s threats.

        And what for?

        After ten years of incessant war and ten New Zealand dead, Iraq and Afghanistan are worse than ever.

        [lprent: I am not sure why you are getting put in auto-moderation all of the time. I suspect the ‘ in O’Dea. It will probably be the weekend before I can check. ]

  5. Morrissey 5

    If Al Qaeda are the bad guys, why is the U.S. arming them?
    And is the A.P. a news organisation or a propaganda arm of the government?

    In the 1980s the United States funded and supported the fanatics who became Al Qaeda. Now it’s bombing them AND arming them at the same time. The media, loyal and unquestioning as ever, are solidly in behind the Obama regime on this. Not only the bloodthirsty chickenhawk outlets like Fox News, but virtually all the media. The following Associated Press article is typical of the unquestioning support for whatever the government does. I’ve highlighted the first few examples of odious hypocrisy in bold, italicised type…..

    Obama praises House vote on arming Syrian rebels
    by JOSH LEDERMAN and DARLENE SUPERVILLE, 17 September 2014

    WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama praised a House vote Wednesday granting him authority for the U.S. military to train and arm moderate Syrian rebels, calling it an important step toward confronting the Islamic State group.

    The Republican-controlled House voted overwhelmingly Wednesday to authorize the program. Final approval in the Senate was expected Thursday.

    Obama said in a statement that the House vote shows there’s bipartisan support for a critical component of his strategy to confront Islamic State extremists, who have seized territory in Iraq and Syria. He said the training won’t be conducted in Syria and U.S. military personnel won’t be on the ground in Syria as part of the program, adding that the U.S. has learned from fighting al-Qaida that it’s better to use America’s capabilities to help partners on the ground defend themselves.

    At a White House picnic later Wednesday for members of Congress and their families, Obama singled out House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., for helping shepherd the legislation quickly through the House. He said the U.S. had gone through a difficult time recently with terrorist attacks and the financial crisis, but said the House vote showed that “when it comes to America’s national security, America is united.”

    Seeking to build on the brief moment of bipartisanship, Obama said if Republicans and Democrats can come together over the Islamic State threat, there’s no doubt they can work together to improve schools, cure diseases and rebuild the nation’s infrastructure.

    Read more if you can bear it…..
    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/fd504e179697404ebcecec0f00448e30/obama-praises-house-vote-arming-syrian-rebels

    • Ron 5.1

      Won’t be long before he calls on his BFF John Key to provide help. Here we go again. Will we never learn.
      Might be a good time to go watch the great Bobby Darin and what he had to say about war

    • Te Reo Putake 5.2

      All those muslims look the same to you eh, Moz? It must be the beards.

      • Morrissey 5.2.1

        All those muslims look the same to you eh, Moz? It must be the beards.

        ?????

        What on Earth are you trying to say?

        Are you trying to be funny?

  6. Chooky 6

    Workers become serfs and banksters as crooks…and threats to democracy in UK

    See Keiser Report :

    http://rt.com/shows/keiser-report/193724-uk-us-economy-windfall/

    Keiser interviews:

    1. Stacy Herbert on mythologies of Neoliberal Capitalism

    2. Neil Mitchell who has staked his all on pursuing the corruption of the Bank of Scotland…with implications of threats to democracy

  7. joe90 7

    If data is not property WTF were the plods looking for when they turned Hager over?.

    .

    In a decision released by the court today, it concluded the convictions should be quashed.

    “We conclude that the convictions entered in the District Court should be quashed, but only on the ground conceded by the Crown, namely that computer data is not ‘property’ as defined.

    “Having rejected all other grounds of appeal, it is now necessary for us to address the Crown’s submission that we should substitute convictions based on obtaining a ‘benefit’.”

    However, the court said it would not enter substitute convictions.

    “We consider the grounds for substituting new verdicts are not met in the present case.”

    The court also said it would not order a retrial.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/10589294/TAG-Oil-secret-stealing-conviction-quashed

    • Murray Rawshark 7.1

      It looks like property needs to be redefined in the statutes. If the data had been in written form and he’d photocopied it, would that have been property?

      I’m not going to cry any tears for TAG oil. In fact I wish he’d wiped their database, but this troubles me. It opens a whole can of worms about IP.

  8. Clemgeopin 8

    Australian couple tell Pope about joys of sex etc.

    A good article for a paradigm shift, understanding and enlightenment in the catholic church boldly spearheaded by the present pope. A good thought provoking article. Includes the homosexuality issue.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11339020

  9. Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 9

    Quick one for the morning. Apologies if someone else has already posted it as I have not read every comment on TS in recent days:

    TTIP (the Transatlantic version of the TPP): Six reasons to reject it

    1. National Health Service

    2. Food and environmental safety

    3. Banking regulations

    4. Privacy

    5. Jobs

    6. Democracy

    Read:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

  10. greywarshark 10

    That news about Alex Sweeney Auckland identity, owing millions in tax. Now I find his name is spelt Alex Swny or Swyney. or something. The obvious answer to the charge here is that he has been paying his tax correctly, under his peculiarly spelt name. It will be just an administrative error . The credit has gone to the normally-spelled name.
    So all you people called Smth and Brwn and Hne had better check.

    • adam 11.1

      MMMmmm and straight into attack mode. These rightwing players are just so obvious.

      • Te Reo Putake 11.1.1

        Textor is actually in defence mode. It was Ev that was in right wing attack mode in her weird post that extrapolated Textor’s part time gig writing for an specialist Aussie business mag being a sign that he totally controls Fairfax in NZ. Like it or not, Textor had her pinned exactly right when he suggested she was probably into chemtrails etc. And yes, Ev, you are batshit crazy, but then, you already knew that, eh?

        • Colonial Rawshark 11.1.1.1

          He would’ve simply pulled that content out of travellerev’s file at CT, and passed it off as his own off the cuff smart ass guessing.

          Put another way, these guys are professionals and don’t fucking guess when they take a swipe, they know.

          • Te Reo Putake 11.1.1.1.1

            Ha ha! Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t after Ev! While you’re probably correct that Textor already knew she was a flake, he wouldn’t need a file. Ev’s home page is chock fulla nuts, so he would have seen that when he read the original half arsed story.

            • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 11.1.1.1.1.1

              Batshit, just a point of perspective, if She’s batshit , key and English are barking mad and howling at the moon. As for Textor. just another bully who if confronted would run away from the repercussions of his crap like any other bully.

              but Putake, since I’m sure your very close to him tell him to bring the shit to my door if he’s got the kahuna’s. but no eh? he sends dogs like you to defend him. Tiny balls.

    • Clean_power 11.2

      You are famous now.

  11. wekarawshark 12

    Adobe’s Digital Editions 4 e-reader gathers user’s content and metadata and transmits it in the clear back to Adobe.

    My source told me, and I can confirm, that Adobe is tracking users in the app and uploading the data to their servers. (Adobe was contacted in advance of publication, but declined to respond.)

    And just to be clear, I have seen this happen, and I can also tell you that Benjamin Daniel Mussler, the security researcher who found the security hole on Amazon.com, has also tested this at my request and saw it with his own eyes.

    Adobe is gathering data on the ebooks that have been opened, which pages were read, and in what order. All of this data, including the title, publisher, and other metadata for the book is being sent to Adobe’s server in clear text.

    I am not joking; Adobe is not only logging what users are doing, they’re also sending those logs to their servers in such a way that anyone running one of the servers in between can listen in and know everything,

    http://boingboing.net/2014/10/07/adobe-ebook-drm-secretly-build.html

    • Colonial Rawshark 12.1

      Yep, it’s utterly shite and compromised. E-Books. In fact anything that you open and read with Adobe products needs to be considered suspect.

  12. greywarshark 13

    I’m reading activist Margaret Thorns book Stick Out Keep Left. The great days of Labour and the thoughts of an intelligent dedicated couple serving their fellows.

    A bit about the heady Labour days of 1920s and 1930s.
    Looking back, the enormous party propaganda…is hardly believable. Radio broadcasting had not yet arrived and big crowds would gather in halls and on street corners….The Empress Theatre could be filled on Sunday nights easily, and there was a plethora of capable and well-informed speakers. The Labour Party headquarters at 80 Manners Street was the scene of…lectures, debates, drama classes, socials and dances….

    We watched as Ramsay MacDonald formed a Labour Government in London in 1924 but the same pattern of post-war unemployment and declining prices prevailed, and no easement could come from a government without real power. Misery deepened… perhaps deepest of all in Germany. We read Maynard Keynes’s Economic Consequences of the Peace. That startled the horses.

  13. aerobubble 14

    Why high tax rates have a negative effect on jobs and real wages, and tend to lower productivity, which is essential if wages are to rise.

    Now let see, I have just become CEO of widget corp, and I decide to sell off my best dividend producing assets, downsize my service delivery, and raise more of my tax revenue from the poorer stockholders while giving the top few shareholders a huge bonus. Sure, it looks like a tax cut to the wealthiest, but was anything but.

    Our economy will continue to fail when people like Roger Douglas fail to see what happened right before their eyes, the massive reallocation of wealth from middle and lower NZ to the upper few. Strangely most of the TV medai who would have seen the tax cut boost their take home pay. You know their names, Henry, Campbell..

    You see productivity is a problem, and it starts with the productivity of our media to talk truth to power. That Key’s legacy of shorting us all, will increasingly cause pain across the NZ economy and into every household.

    • Colonial Rawshark 14.1

      Did you just try and put Paul Henry and John Campbell in the same sentence? Come on man!!!

  14. aerobubble 15

    Pro-weed party gets over twice votes that United Future got! Are we in Israel now? Dunne becomes minister, most outspoken minister in favor of industrial highs which would directly compete with natural weed. Imagine that, say, Pepsi being banned and more voters voting Pepsi yet Mr Industrial Coke gets a ministerial position.

  15. aerobubble 16

    Greens gain one MP in final count, back to 14. Labour lost two MPs from last election. Espom still has three MPs, Seymour, Goldsmith and Genter. And nobody in Labour has a clue about how MMP works, since most Labour constituencies have just one member of parliament, and they like it that way.

  16. minshark 17

    classic double think from the men @ the ministry

    We have to go to war because of the threat to New Zealanders from terrorism

    but dont worry because

    Isis fight: NZ won’t be a target – PM

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11339239

    • Paul 17.1

      The Herald always writes headings like that
      “PM : NZ won’t be a target.”
      Well if Key says so, it must be right.
      Go back to sleep New Zealand……The Block is on TV

  17. Pawsharkial 18

    I haven’t seen any discussion about the Te Tai Tokerau judicial recount, but then again I may have missed it (as I’ve mainly had TS open in a background tab while concentrating on other things rather than musing over every comment these last few days). I’m just surprised that it’s not Waiariki & Ikaroa-Rāwhiti (or in fact; all the Māori electorates), as well – seeing as the MANA movement has shown itself willing to question the methods of those employed by the Electoral Commission. I would have expected Ōhāriu too, but that’s down to Labour or the GP (rather than the IMPs who stood no candidate in that electorate).

    “I have applied for a judicial recount of the votes in the Tai Tokerau election because it is one step in trying to restore credibility to the electoral process in the north, and, I suspect, in all other Maori electorates as well” said MANA leader Hone Harawira.

    “Irrespective of whether the recount changes the result of the election in Te Tai Tokerau, these issues need to be independently examined and substantial improvements made ahead of the next election to ensure our people’s basic rights are respected and their participation in the democratic process is encouraged and affirmed.”

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1410/S00087/recount-just-one-step-to-restoring-credibility.htm

    “People handle defeat and loss in different ways. Hone’s predictable and we expected this,” Mr Davis said.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/article.cfm?c_id=1503450&objectid=11339030

    Being predicted by Davis (and thus his associates), there may not be much evidence left to find in Te Tai Tokerau; other electorates may have been less well scrubbed. But this is the only electorate that I know of that is facing even moderately independent scrutiny. Scrutineers were, in my experience, limited in the actual amount of scrutiny they could do. This recount is still in the “electorate’s returning office in Auckland”, but at least this time; “overseen by District Court Judge Tom Broadmore”:
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=11338559

    • Murray Rawshark 18.1

      I’ve read stuff on Mana’s FB pages about it. It doesn’t seem designed to get Hone a seat, not this time around anyway. What Mana is concerned about is the way Maori voters have been treated by electorate officials in the north. People were told they couldn’t vote in Whangarei and had to go to Waipu, for example. It’s all anecdotal at the moment, but it looks like a lot of rubbish went on. It reminds me of the lengths they go to in the US and A to stop minorities voting. If correct, the stories are extremely concerning. As someone who lived in Whangarei until I was 15, they ring true.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYFZ8M5NX0o

  18. Morrissey 19

    “I agree entirely with Michelle.”
    The dismal double act of Boag and Edwards is back.

    The Panel, Radio NZ National, Tuesday 8 October 2014
    Jim Mora, Michelle Boag, Brian Edwards, Zara Potts

    Brian Edwards is like Josie Pagani, Deborah Mahuta Coyle and Mike Williams: he says he’s a Labour supporter, but he’s more concerned about currying favor with whatever scowling right winger happens to be in the vicinity. This afternoon, the scowling right winger was the National Party power-broker—and mortal enemy of the Slater faction—Michelle Boag.

    Edwards seems bewitched and bewildered by the charms of the Prime Minister, and he’s not shy about expressing just how much he admires him…..

    BRIAN EDWARDS: Cundliffe’s performance is Shakespearian, you know. It’s big, grand, over the top. His interruptions of the Prime Minister led to Hosking having to intervene, and say “David you’re shouting.” The adjudicator had to stop him interrupting. And people DON’T LIKE THAT.
    MICHELLE BOAG: [approvingly] Ex-ACT-ly!
    BRIAN EDWARDS: Whereas John Key, on the other hand, is someone I’d be happy to have a beer with.
    MICHELLE BOAG: I can arrange that for you.
    BRIAN EDWARDS: Ha ha ha ha ha! But Key is easy and relaxed. The reality of television is that there are two people talking quietly in a studio. It’s an intimate medium.

    Later on….

    MICHELLE BOAG: Auckland Council should sell off its assets, such as the Ports of Auckland.
    BRIAN EDWARDS: I agree.
    MICHELLE BOAG: It should cease this ideological opposition to selling off assets.
    JIM MORA: Brian, what do you think?
    BRIAN EDWARDS: I agree entirely with Michelle.

    Perhaps the nadir of the program came in the course of a learned discussion about ISIS, just after Michelle Boag called it “totally evil” and averred: “These people don’t UNDERSTAND democracy like we do.” Mora paused for effect, then earnestly asked Professor Al Gillespie to answer the sort of moronic question that usually gets aired on Rupert Murdoch’s barking mad Fox News….

    JIM MORA: [with utmost gravitas] Are we looking at a great clash of civilizations?

    Or WAS it the nadir? Incredibly, Mora—or his producer—seems determined to make this show even lighter, even more trivial than what you hear on NewstalkZBigot. Just before the end of the show, Jim Mora raised the subject of tonight’s total eclipse (the “Blood Moon”). To learnedly discuss this, he wheeled on an astrologer, Don Murray.

    Edwards exercised his trademark sarcasm against Murray for a while, but clearly his heart was not in it.

    Rating for today’s show: D.

  19. alwyn 20

    Having just read the latest post on NRT’s blog I expect him to come out shortly announcing that the ACT party leader during the election has been dreadfully maligned and the NRT s going to vote ACT in future!
    http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/

  20. Richard AKA RAWSHARK 21

    Meanwhile the west uses Isis as a war cry and reasons for more survailence.

    While innocent people suffer.

    Can’t win on that one. Totally wrong.

    Freaking UN should do something about Isis not the bloody western democracies using it for political purposes.

    Some people will be against helping them(those suffering and about to suffer ISIS) for that reason.

    But my opinion is still they need help, we just have to find the honest and un political way to do it.

  21. Richard AKA RAWSHARK 22

    Meanwhile the west uses Isis as a war cry and reasons for more survailence.

    While innocent people suffer.

    Can’t win on that one. Totally wrong.

    Freaking UN should do something about Isis not the bloody western democracies using it for political purposes.

    Some people will be against helping them(those suffering and about to suffer ISIS) for that reason.

    But my opinion is still they need help, we just have to find the honest and un political way to do it.

  22. b waghorn 23

    Is there any chance nats are trying to shaft Nash to force a buy election.

  23. North 24

    RNZ The Panel this afternoon – good to hear the bossy, somewhat bawling Michelle Boag forthrightly corrected on her claim (apparently a significant factor in first home buyers’ housing difficulties) – “All these young couples expect to be able to get their first home in Herne Bay……” or some such throwaway rubbish. What ???
    So that’d be why there aren’t any busy high street real estate agencies south of Onehunga then ?

    Guest contributor Mark Graham (name?)…….an apparently qualified voice on the topic…….”No Michelle, that’s just not correct”. The dear lady chose not to argue.

    Such contemptibly dishonest spin from the National Party corner. Apparently……as long as you say ‘something’, however patently stupid…….lo, no problem. Or if undeniably there remains a problem – “Well, it’s their own fault !”

    And then she waxes lyrical about “Mang-a-ree Bridge” as fertile ground for the would-be home buyer. Oh really madam ? Not to dis’ Mangere Bridge at all but has she ever been there ? And has she ever seen current prices there ?

  24. greywarshark 25

    Abbott in Australia is reported as having been angry that some Muslims are visiting and holding meetings critical of the US intervention. Apparently he calls it hate speech.

    I hope that criticism, even strong criticism, isn’t inflated to meet the hyperbole about terrorism.

  25. Pascals bookie 26

    So that Nash story on 3news.

    Him and Lusk are denying that Nash ever paid Lusk, but Nash’s mates did. So that’s that story.

    The other story is how and why this came out.

    Bomber had this post 4 hours ago:

    http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/10/08/nash-lusk/

    It included an image of a section of the email. So there’s that.

    And Andrea Vance says she was shown the story a while back but didn’t touch it because:

    So there’s that.

    • Tracey aka Rawshark 26.1

      and nash saying people have had enough of this dirty politics, meaning stop talking about it, made him sound just like Key…

      People have been discussing the lusk/nash connection on this site for ages.

      Glad hes not in the leadership race. He seems to be another pretending hes not in the wrong party cos he wants to return labour to its Douglas days.

      • Ad 26.1.1

        The great majority of the New Zealand public saw the entire Dirty Politics prices, and decided that it was not sufficiently important to alter their vote.

        We need to accept that.

        Not saying it will be easy.

        National now have a further term to permanently install a new level of ethics, legal tests for slander, journalistic intimidation, renew every single public sector board to tilt governance their way for a generation, instal favorable judges for decades, and crushing the remaining parliamentary opposition.

        If we want an alternative government to form, it will include winning – and including people like Nash – despite all of that.

        • Pascals bookie 26.1.1.1

          lol

        • BM 26.1.1.2

          I agree.

          NZ isn’t some pommie/unionist outpost any more, if Labour ever wants to gain power again they have to completely change their approach.

          First thing I’d do if I was making the decisions is neuter the party member input, those ass hats have no idea.

          Bunch of myopic train spotters, they’ll be the death of labour unless you get them under control.

        • Murray Rawshark 26.1.1.3

          The great majority of the New Zealand public saw Key’s description of Dirty POlitics as a left wing smear campaign, and thinks Dirty Politics is when Labour does something wrong. The serious stuff of the inquiries has yet to happen. When it does, Nash will be toast.

          • Scott1 26.1.1.3.1

            I think the dirty politics thing did have some impact – just it was not enough to change most people’s votes because people were already going to vote right. It instead just made them want to vote NZfirst and Conservatives in the same way that a major labour scandal of corruption would probably not result in a huge defection to National (but might result in a significant defection to green).

            So I think one can say the public was taking it seriously and yet it not make a significant difference in the election due to other more significant factors.

          • Scott1 26.1.1.3.2

            I presume Nash is hoping that NZ first implodes and he can set up a middle party and be the king maker.

  26. greywarshark 27

    Don’t like the look of all those mouthful of white teeth on Nash – couldn’t be rawshark could it. And I think Bomber is concentrating on Labour getting onto the government benches. I don’t want a new crop of right-wing oriented types carrying forward the soiled red banner worn down since 1984.

    Can’t we actually get a crop of young Labour guys and girls who are involved in the politics and get trained and would have been thoroughly vetted? And then we will have some newcomers with broad interests and background coming forward. If it already happens, make it better.

    • Ad 27.1

      And put them through years of this?
      Best of luck.

    • Scott1 27.2

      I suspect that most NZ politicians have an ugly side where they have sacrificed ethics for political progress in some sense.

      Overseas they talk about how if you were ethically clean you could never even get off the ground in politics. Maybe it isn’t quite as bad here but I’m sure it still applies to an extent

      The problem is that if you turn on your advocates for this, you will cripple your own pool of advocates (which is relevant if one considers Nash an advocate of their general position).

  27. Ad 28

    We need this whole collective mind to start debating what an effective and coherent opposition would look like. The opposition is too scattered to do it themselves.

    The goal is an alternative government. This is not going to be evident in Parliament until either late this term or early the next one, because they’re still reeling from the evident distance from attaining power.

    So absent anyone else able to span the divides, we here are the default ground for thinking through an alternative government.

    Personally I would like to see more post from MPs from Labour, the Greens, and NZFirst. Could the Moderators reach out to the parties to do this?

    We are the collective base.

    • Tracey aka Rawshark 28.1

      I have yet to hear how the left, and labour in particular intend countering two track strategy and cult key. Until that is addressed it wont matter who leads, the left wont be back in power til national shoots itself through the heart.

      • Ad 28.1.1

        Forget Labour for now.
        It’s years before they recover into a believable fighting force.

        How would you do it?
        How can we start it?

      • Scott1 28.1.2

        I imagine the labour politicians have a “hope he retires” strategy.

        One could try ones luck with a One track Muldoon strategy I suppose. then undermine the faith of the public in politicians and then see if people will vote for the rat or the snake.

  28. Not a PS Shark Sashimi 29

    Expel Nash immediately.
    Expel Nash immediately.
    Expel Nash immediately.

  29. Richard AKA RAWSHARK 30

    They have a precedent for corrupting, like they did Shane Jones they seem to be playing a game with this Nash fellow I’ve never heard of until recently.

    Does he have a wiki page yet? Who is this Nash fellow, some National MP planted to cross the floor if Labour won?

  30. wekarawshark 32

    Anyone else staying up for the blood moon eclipse later on?

    • Richard AKA RAWSHARK 32.1

      Time Weka? Wouldn’t mind avid astronomer, but bad night here, spotted the moon earlier for a brief glimpse.

      • wekarawshark 32.1.1

        It’s happening now, about half the moon is black. Full eclipse starts at 11.27pm.

        It’s meant to be a reddy colour, but looks black to me. Maybe it looks better through a telescope.

  31. Richard AKA RAWSHARK 33

    The Blams sum it up pretty well to round the night off.

    Love the old NZ scenes half way through. Good old, bad days.

    • wekarawshark 33.1

      Excellent. I have the cassette release of that concert. Wish they would rerelease it on digital!

      “there is no spying in New Zealand,
      we can all keep perfectly calm”

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