Open mike 09/05/2023

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, May 9th, 2023 - 68 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step up to the mike …

68 comments on “Open mike 09/05/2023 ”

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  1. Sanctuary 1
    9 May 2023 at 7:10 am

    This sort of thing is unbelievably grim. BTW – how come youtube videos no longer embed automatically?

    https://youtu.be/TeOdxKozra0

    • aj 1.1
      9 May 2023 at 8:34 am

      Health and Safety in the workplace.

    • Incognito 1.2
      9 May 2023 at 8:45 am

      Lprent has been doing site maintenance, plugin trimming, fixing stuff, et cetera. I believe tweets also don’t embed at present. It is like reading MSM online with an ad-blocker, i.e., I quite like it this way!

    • bwaghorn 1.3
      9 May 2023 at 1:18 pm

      Land of the free

      Home of the brave!!!

    • Ad 2.1
      9 May 2023 at 8:53 am

      The answer is:

      With a written agreement that you then fulfil over multiple budgets.

      See: 2017-2020 coalition agreement

      If TMP has a brain, they will bargain for a specific agreement with dumptrucks of money attached, just as Winston Peters did.

    • Incognito 2.2
      9 May 2023 at 9:07 am

      Assuming you are older than 5, you do still think the world is B&W!?

      • Alan 2.2.1
        9 May 2023 at 10:02 am

        Trust is fundamental, no matter what your age

        • Incognito 2.2.1.1
          9 May 2023 at 7:53 pm

          Indeed, but this doesn’t mean it is unconditional, complete, absolute, infinite, permanent, or blind.

    • roblogic 2.3
      9 May 2023 at 11:41 pm

      Smells like BS to me. Looks like an attempt at self preservation. Waka jumping doesn't exactly demonstrate trustworthiness

  4. tWiggle 4
    9 May 2023 at 9:25 am

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/may/08/plan-75-ageing-japan-euthanasia-suicide

    A Japanese film that explores involuntary euthanaesia in drama form. The director has made it in order to pre-empt a slow creep in Japanese society towards demonising those who are not financially secure.

    'Over the past decade, [the director] adds, the Japanese concept of self-responsibility has become an obsession. “It means that we have to take care of ourselves instead of relying on the government or being a burden to society – and it has created a kind of hatred towards the elderly and the weak.” '

    I used to joke to my son growing up that his could be the first generation to have the chance to live for ever. And that his probably would also be the first generation with the legal power to euthanise their parents.

    Of course, I started from the age of four or five to inculcate him with "you'll look after me when I'm old, won't you" (no question mark). We talked about fun stuff, too, in case you judge me as morbid. I'm of the school 'prepare (psychologically) for the worst, hope for the best'. Oops, reading this through I realise I need to emphasise the /sarc.

    • AB 4.1
      9 May 2023 at 10:49 am

      Sounds like the evil twin of Bill English's "social investment". You identify a set of people as being in themselves problematic. Then you can either pretend to give them extra support (the Blinglish model), or you withdraw whatever support they might already have in order to kill them. Same underlying pathological idea, just some sentimental surface differences in treatment.

  5. arkie 5
    9 May 2023 at 11:48 am

    New Zealand Green Investment Finance, created thanks to the Greens, has been allocated another $300 million in the 2023 Budget:

    Budget 2023 will accelerate the uptake of low-emissions technologies across Aotearoa and help create new jobs and opportunities, Climate Change Minister James Shaw announced today.

    “Pioneering green investor, NZGIF, will be provided with an additional $300 million to invest in solutions to stimulate clean, green investment into low carbon companies and projects, and mobilise private capital.

    “Since its establishment in 2019 New Zealand Green Investment Finance has been a major player in the work to finance and incentivise climate innovation and drive down emissions,” said James Shaw.

    …

    “This capital investment will support existing and future projects, including transport, process heat, infrastructure and early-stage companies. It will also open up new parts of the market and enable NZGIF to attract larger sums of private capital.

    “As at June 2022, the total estimated lifetime emissions reductions of its investments was 580,000 to 710,000 tonnes of CO2e. That is equivalent to 480,000 to 590,000 homes energy use for one year.

    “We know we can’t plant our way out of the climate crisis. We have to stop putting pollution into the atmosphere that causes climate change. The great thing about NZGIF is that it invests capital into companies, technologies, and projects that focus on abating emissions rather than offsetting.

    “In addition to generating a rate of return on investments, the capital is recycled and can be invested into other projects. It’s a win win.

    “NZGIF shows that it is possible to deliver low carbon benefits alongside investment returns – and that capital coupled with purpose makes economic sense.

    “It is a Government and climate success story that not enough people know about”, James Shaw said.

    https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/pioneering-green-investor-gets-significant-boost

  6. tWiggle 6
    9 May 2023 at 12:08 pm

    Yes, targetted profiling a big theme for neolibs. The UK runs such a system of focussing on "problem families". That way you can blame the individuals and not societal conditions/pay rates. I prefer Labour's approach of investment to uplift a class, in this case Māori, who dominate in negative health and prison stats. The Nat/neolib approach smacks of the classist "undeserving poor".

  7. joe90 7
    9 May 2023 at 1:03 pm

    boom!

    Pocket•Cindy

    @Pocket_Cindy

    Saw this on Facebook, and The Men are foaming at the mouth. Way to prove the point.

    https://twitter.com/Pocket_Cindy/status/1655656375513382914

  8. roblogic 8
    9 May 2023 at 2:06 pm

    Noah's flood is deluging Auckland again, arrrgh! At least I got the washing done.

    Heard a rumour that Naniah Mahuta is not well and dropping portfolios?

    via Barry Soper on ZB (03:22)

    • RedLogix 8.1
      9 May 2023 at 2:09 pm

      Likely well enough to waka jump when the moment is right.

      • Belladonna 8.1.1
        9 May 2023 at 2:22 pm

        That seems to be baseless speculation – Mahuta has been explicit that she has no intention of following Whaitiri to TPM

        Mahuta told the Herald that following Whaitiri out the door was “not going to happen”.

        “Fundamentally, the mandate I’ve been put into Parliament to represent is one that has been firmly based on Labour policies but also the needs within my electorate, which ostensibly have always been bread and butter issues.”

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/nanaia-mahuta-rules-out-maori-party-as-meka-whaitiri-prepares-for-big-return-to-parliament/NLR2R6ZV2ZFBTME6JIJBF37PI4/

        • RedLogix 8.1.1.1
          9 May 2023 at 3:26 pm

          Yeah it is just speculation – but you have to admit it has some logic to it. It likely hangs on this calculus – have I peaked with Labour, or can I achieve more with TMP?

          What happens when middle NZ becomes aware of just how radical the separatist Maori sovereignty agenda really is?

          • adam 8.1.1.1.1
            9 May 2023 at 5:32 pm

            Well they are not that worried about the crazy far right radicalism of the act party, and the economic melt down their election would cause.

            Māori sovereignty or let me rephrase it so you don't have to run with your fearmongering line, up lifting Māori out of economic bondage seems quite tame in comparison.

            • RedLogix 8.1.1.1.1.1
              9 May 2023 at 6:00 pm

              Criticising a political policy is not the same as 'fearmongering'. No more than your not unreasonable objections to 'crazy far right radicalism' of ACT.

              As for "lifting Māori out of economic bondage" – the Māori I meet here in Australia seem more than capable of doing this for themselves. Not sure what is holding back the ones still living in NZ.

          • Incognito 8.1.1.1.2
            9 May 2023 at 8:05 pm

            Is “radical separatist Māori sovereignty agenda” your dysphemism for “co-governance”?

          • roblogic 8.1.1.1.3
            9 May 2023 at 9:49 pm

            I'm more worried that TPM is positioning itself as kingmaker with potential to form govt with the right. Big turn-off

      • Patricia Bremner 8.1.2
        9 May 2023 at 8:58 pm

        Rubbish Red !! Stop telling porkies. Nanaia is staunch Labour.

  9. Belladonna 9
    9 May 2023 at 2:26 pm

    It seems beyond belief that a school felt that it was a good idea to send students on a caving expedition in the teeth of a warning of heavy rainfall

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/northern-advocate/news/northland-weather-police-and-fire-respond-to-students-trapped-in-abbey-caves/4EBTF2452JHLPGZH7TN6QUHNPY/

    My heart goes out to the family of the missing student.

    • Cricklewood 9.1
      9 May 2023 at 3:01 pm

      Yep very poor decision and likely very tragic consequences. To enter a cave system which contains a waterway when rain any rain is forecast let alone when there have been numerous weather warnings is complete insanity.

    • Incognito 9.2
      9 May 2023 at 8:07 pm

      I think you may jumped to conclusions prematurely, but I feel it is too early to start waving fingers and go tsss, tsss …

      • Belladonna 9.2.1
        10 May 2023 at 9:34 am

        I'm sure the bereaved family will entirely support your position /sarc/

        I'm not quite sure what conclusions I'm supposed to have jumped to. The death of the student has now been confirmed. We all know what the weather conditions were. There is no question but that this was an 'official' school trip.

        What more information do you need to have?

        Can you think of *any* circumstances where this would have been a sensible and responsible trip to take, given the forecast weather?

        You can't even say that the consequences would have been unforseen – we've had previous tragedies where school trips have been overcome by bad weather.

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/centres-guilty-pleas-over-canyon-tragedy-welcomed/Y3CJ747JVU5OWCJ2MQ23FGMUXQ/

        Schools know that weather is a risk factor, and school trips are routinely cancelled because of weather conditions.

        • Incognito 9.2.1.1
          10 May 2023 at 9:02 pm

          In a statement to Newshub, the family said they're deeply grateful for the help and support from search and rescuers – and they wish for their privacy to be respected.

          […]

          "WorkSafe has opened an investigation into the incident, but cannot comment further while the investigation is underway."

          […]

          [David] Seymour is urging people to take a breath before criticising people involved in organizing the trip.

          "I can understand why people will say, 'It's hard to believe how they could go with a rain warning being a cave.' But, having said that, you shouldn't judge people before you know all the circumstances they faced at the time," he said.

          "I'm a bit worried that there'll be a national pile-on today when maybe there were circumstances or factors we don't all understand yet."

          Education Minister Jan Tinetti shared similar thoughts to Seymour, saying it was a day of grieving.

          […]

          "I will be talking to my officials today about just that but at the same time being mindful that today is a time of grief.

          […]

          "We [Police] acknowledge this event has been very distressing for the school and wider community, and that there are a number of questions the public will have.

          "At the moment, police's focus is on supporting those affected and we remind people to please not make assumptions as to what has occurred."

          https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/05/body-found-in-search-for-missing-student-in-whang-rei-s-abbey-caves.html

          The conclusions you jumped to last night have not changed, it seems.

          Each to their own.

          • Belladonna 9.2.1.1.1
            10 May 2023 at 9:07 pm

            I look forward to you imposing the same level of proof on all of your political commentary.

            And countering your selective quoting
            “The mother who spoke to Stuff said the school group should have never been in the caves given the weather warnings.

            She said communication from the police and school was “shocking”, with police urging the students not to answer their phones after they were rescued as distressed parents tried to reach them.”

            …..

            “Parents posted online criticising the school’s “absolutely insane” decision.

            Questions about why the outing was not called off remain unanswered, and intensified after Stuff revealed students were meant to be rock climbing but the forecast downpours forced the trip underground instead.”

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/abbey-caves-tragedy-lost-a-much-loved-and-treasured-son-and-brother-whangarei-boys-principal-pays-tribute-to-dead-student/TRCLN7XBFVD2VMSX6RXI4UFLAY/

            • Incognito 9.2.1.1.1.1
              10 May 2023 at 9:14 pm

              What level of proof am I imposing and on whom?

              • Belladonna …
                10 May 2023 at 9:21 pm

                "Jumping to conclusions"

                Valid commentary based on the publicly available information.

                If we are required to wait for the official W&S investigation before commenting – surely you will also wish to apply that 'level of proof' requirement to other commentary. /sarc/

                • Incognito …
                  10 May 2023 at 9:46 pm

                  Nah, you can jump the gun, if you must, even before the poor boy’s body was found and recovered. I find it insensitive, disrespectful, and premature, which is neither a requirement nor an imposition. You may want to be more careful with jumping to conclusions and accusing others – it seems a bit of a habit of yours.

                  • Belladonna …
                    10 May 2023 at 10:00 pm

                    Sure thing. I'll continue to make valid commentary.

                    And, always happy to respond to additional information as it is presented.

                    I call it forming an opinion, based on publicly available evidence. You call it jumping to conclusions.

                    I note that you didn't express this opinion in any of the criticism which has been presented on non-Labour politicians or figures (you might want to look at the Charlotte Bellis debacle – not TS's finest hour).

                    • Incognito …
                      10 May 2023 at 10:12 pm

                      You call it jumping to conclusions.

                      I said you “may [have] jumped to conclusions prematurely”. You couldn’t even wait till the body had been found.

                      Instead of sarcasm you’re now opting for deflection and whataboutism!? Not your finest comment.

                      I don’t expect you to change your spots, almost nobody here does anyway.

                  • Belladonna …
                    10 May 2023 at 10:22 pm

                    You said:

                    "The conclusions you jumped to last night have not changed, it seems."

                    Nothing about "may" or "prematurely"

                    However, little profit in debating form with a moderator.

                    Enjoy your evening.

  10. roblogic 10
    9 May 2023 at 3:28 pm

    Simon Wilson pulls no punches: “Tax avoidance is the ram-raiding of the uber-rich”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/simon-wilson-tax-avoidance-is-the-ram-raiding-of-the-uber-rich/XYERIHPL7VHGFGOP7E5P5JN3AM/

    • ianmac 10.1
      9 May 2023 at 4:16 pm

      Well said Simon. Thanks Rob.

      Of course the givers of huge amounts for Nat/Act expect nothing at all in return. Not a thing. The givers are just being kind as is their custom.

      • roblogic 10.1.1
        9 May 2023 at 4:30 pm

        Wilson makes an important point about our news media as well. Broken glass is more newsworthy than routine white collar crime, even though the scale is vastly different and impacts are systemic and hurt more people eventually

        • Peter 10.1.1.1
          9 May 2023 at 7:22 pm

          There is a blogsite I look at regularly where anger about ram raiders is common and ideas about what should happen to ram raiders (and their families) are freely shared. Ruthless treatment is to be meted out.

          Some young people do things which have profound impacts on victims. We know that.

          If a lawyer or businessperson operating in the same block of shops or offices of a ram raider ruthlessly destroys the lives of a number of people with crooked dealings, ripoffs and treachery do they get the same attention and contempt in that same forum? No, or at least very seldom and certainly not with the same venom and sustained attack. That stuff is ignored.

          Why? Because they are highly likely to not be young Māori offenders.

        • Incognito 10.1.1.2
          9 May 2023 at 8:09 pm

          Broken glass is so much more tangible and easier to prove than 'pretty legal' white-collar crime. Court cases are highly technical, long, and thus boring.

    • Jilly Bee 10.2
      9 May 2023 at 5:04 pm

      I (for better or worse – usually the latter) subscribe to NZ Herald – the comments to Simon's article are just so predictable, most of them are frothing at the mouth and possibly other places as well! One or two brave souls had the utter temerity to support what Simon said and they got shot down in flames as well.

  11. Catherine Bindon 11
    9 May 2023 at 3:40 pm

    Kia Ora. I have not been here for quite some time.

    I noted on a recent Open Mike there was a bit of discussion around Chloe Swarbrick talking about the cruelty of Greyhound racing.

    I have been campaigning for many years, along with others, for a ban on the sale of fireworks to the public. I have been motivated from an animal welfare perspective, after knowing of the loss of animals to fireworks, permanent disability and evolving psychological disorders.

    This is a move formally supported by FENZ, NZ Police, SAFE, NZ Veterinary Association, SPCA and others. that I have possibly forgotten.

    I've been through two Select Committees. The first report published in August 2020 was full of top notch evidence from the above organisations, and I think I put up a fairly good fight.

    The second Select Committee was a pared back version of the first and the report, written by Nat Jacqui Dean was verging on insulting and patronising.

    I am here to tell you that, if you are considering animal welfare when you vote, think about the Green Party. They have been the only ones who have actively engaged with me and supporting a ban. They also really mean it. It's not lip service for the feels.

    Thank you and that is all.

    Catherine AKA We Care, No Fireworks Here

    Labour Party member, Ohariu Electorate

    • weka 11.1
      9 May 2023 at 4:14 pm

      I’d be fine with a ban on public sales. The other aspect is people going to beaches and letting off fireworks and leaving all the shit behind from that (as well as impact on wildlife). And in many parts of the country November is a fire risk and this will only get worse with climate change.

      Are sparklers included in the ban? The biggest challenge is removing family fund and tradition.

      • Belladonna 11.1.1
        9 May 2023 at 4:53 pm

        I think part of the problem has been the H&S bar for local community fireworks displays being ridiculously and unreasonably high. It used to be a great little fundraiser for rugby clubs, Playcentres and schools to hold a 'bonfire night' event. Families would pay as small amount, and bring along their own fireworks to 'pool' for everyone to enjoy.

        Sausage sizzles, food sales, softdrinks etc. – were the major funding stream for the hosting organization.

        Many also did this as a community goodwill gesture – making a family-friendly, fun event.

        The requirement for OTT safety plans, and personal liability for risk for the organizers, has killed off all of these local events. In the last 15 years it's gone from a choice of 3 or 4 within walking distance – to nothing.

        Families have the choice of attending a large event, costing a lot of money, held miles away, and which is often not suitable for small children; or holding back-yard celebrations (often moving, illicitly, to beaches or local parks).

        What people really want is a community event: a safe space for kids to play (supervised) with sparklers, and seeing mid-size fireworks (catherine wheels, rockets, etc.) – touched off by adults or older children under supervision; with a picnic space, and with the odd treat food and drink option.

        If there's a community event, where they can freely participate, teens are much less likely to sneak off to the bush or the beach to let off their rockers and bangers. And people are much more likely to join in to the local event/s rather than letting off their own fireworks on their own schedule.

        There's space for the mega-events as well – but they can't be the only option.

      • Catherine Bindon 11.1.2
        9 May 2023 at 5:00 pm

        Hi weka. Yes, it's a problem with fireworks on beaches. In many cases there will be council by law in place that prevents fireworks being lit on beaches or council reserves. This can be enforced by Police. If in doubt contact your local council prior to fireworks going on sale to check whether there is a by law in place preventing people from using fireworks in public spaces.

        FENZ have already commented on the fact that this is a terrible time of year to be letting off fireworks. After all, they are heavily affected at this time of the year putting out fireworks related bush and scrub fires.

        As for us campaigners the resistance is not coming from families (largely they have the good sense to go to safety approved public displays) and tradition doesn't count as there is nothing to do with modern Aotearoa acknowledging the gun powder plot of 1605 in England. Our challenge is merely political apathy.

        Public polling was used as evidence in submissions to both SC's but later a man bv the name of Johnathon Hill commissioned a private survey showing that 65% want an end to public sales.

        "Helm’s call to ban fireworks has been backed up by a survey commissioned by Wellington man Jonathan Hill which shows two thirds (65%) of the 1085 people asked, now oppose the private sale of fireworks."

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/130533495/call-for-ban-on-fireworks-after-temuka-woman-has-to-put-seriously-injured-foal-down

        Yes, sparklers need to included in a ban given recent concern about the explosives toxins creating respiratory problems in children, however sparklers can be used in animal torture too.

    • JeremyB 11.2
      9 May 2023 at 8:42 pm

      "insulting and patronising" describes Jacqui Dean quite well.

  12. Visubversa 12
    9 May 2023 at 4:03 pm

    One of the many things that happen when same sex attracted people are force teamed with straight people with a bunch of medical and psychological conditions.

    "Resist Gender Education (RGE) objects in the strongest terms to our group being named in the above Stuff report about harassment and threats against teachers, librarians, trans people and their allies, and the implication that we have participated in such behaviour. We do not advocate for, nor condone, threats or harassment towards anyone and certainly not towards the rainbow community, which many of our group are part of.

    Stuff’s coverage of this issue is, as usual, one dimensional, implying that anyone who might challenge schools on education policies regarding sexuality and gender must necessarily be against same-sex relationships. RGE is a non-partisan and non-religious group of parents and educators, including lesbians and gays, who are (obviously) supportive of same-sex relationships and the marriage equality laws in NZ. Our challenge to education policies is focused solely on the teaching of gender identity beliefs as if they are fact and on teaching these concepts to children who are too young to be able to grasp the complexities involved.”

    https://resistgendereducation.substack.com/p/challenging-harmful-policies-is-not?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&fbclid=IwAR1VKIFdx6EeIil0Dns59fDew83awiArjiWc9_VIJ6BCuBt8K0wSQ9EMGpQ

  13. tWiggle 13
    9 May 2023 at 5:21 pm

    https://www.resistgendereducation.nz/information/gender-in-education

    Looking at RGE's website, of the three links with NZ content, one is from Family First, one is a very old article from 2016 about a student at an all-girls' school who didn't like the idea of sharing a bathroom with a transgender student, an issue which was resolved at the time with little fuss, plus a link to the I'm Local NZ Rainbow Youth resource site.

    https://www.imlocal.co.nz/#freestuff

    "Kicked off in 2014 by RainbowYOUTH, the I’m Local project focuses on contacting high schools, medical centres, hospitals, libraries, marae and community centres in more rural or isolated area of Aotearoa and supplying them with free resources about gender and sexuality."

    The educational material is clearly targetted at high schools, not primary schools, is voluntary, and seems quite a good idea to proovide support for gender-diverse adolescents in small rural towns. No kiddie grooming here, as far as I can see.

    The other site links are to overseas articles, eg, from the right-wing Spectator and culture wars mag The Critic, and refer to situations not relevant to us here. Full of the usual horror and indignation, though.

    • Visubversa 13.1
      9 May 2023 at 5:46 pm

      [deleted because of unlinked quote]

      • weka 13.1.1
        9 May 2023 at 6:33 pm

        I've deleted your comment. I'll reinstate it when you provide links for the quotes.

    • Molly 13.2
      9 May 2023 at 9:12 pm

      "The educational material is clearly targetted at high schools, not primary schools, is voluntary, and seems quite a good idea to proovide support for gender-diverse adolescents in small rural towns. "

      Where was the reference to the source material, and the indication who it was for?

  14. tWiggle 14
    9 May 2023 at 11:41 pm

    In quote marks at the start I give the self-description from the Rainbow Youth site, where they state who they think will benefit from the resources.

    I made a mistake in that the material is targetted at Rainbow Youth generally.

  15. roblogic 15
    9 May 2023 at 11:44 pm

    Holy fsck Seymour is an annoying prat. After all the RW scaremongering about 3 Waters he has suddenly realised it might be a good idea to build drains.

    https://twitter.com/StrayDogNZ/status/1655809769427570688?s=20

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