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Open Mike 09/07/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 9th, 2018 - 193 comments
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193 comments on “Open Mike 09/07/2018 ”

  1. cleangreen 1

    NZTA has closed the dangerous state highway 2 beteen Bay of Plenty and Gisborne again for the six time in two years.


    “Due to a major slip and poor weather conditions, the Waioeka Gorge slip site is closed between Waioeka Pa Rd and Te Wera Rd as a safety precaution”

    Rail services must be restored by Labour/NZF/Greens.

    There now must be a railway route investigated by the new Government now to relieve these disruptions caused by road closures.

    In our past history several rail routes were surveyed by NZ Governments from 1880 but most were stopped when the world war one & later world war two.

    A possible best route for a railway now has been proposed from Gisborne to Murupara and will follow the state highwway 38, so being easily accessed as being a good solution since the railway is still connected to Murupara and goes to Tauranga and Rotorua, so this is considered as positive for a freigh,t passenger and tourism services as a very attractive option as a good rail route.

    • Wayne 1.1

      A rail connection between Gisborne and Murupara would almost certainly cost hundreds of millions and hardly be used. Could not be conceivably be economic.
      A much more sensible investment would be to fully electrify from Hamilton to Auckland and Palmerston to Waikenae. That would mean the same locomotives Auckland to Wellington, probably commuter trains Auckland to Hamilton. Towns along the way could be revitalised.

      • You_Fool 1.1.1

        Which is fine, but in no way solves the issue raised by cleangreen.

        So what can we do to help the people of Gisborne not be cut off along SH2?

        Also should “economically viable” really be a thing? Shouldn’t we frame things in terms of socially responsible? Sure use $$ to discuss the positive and negative impacts, and even convert social impacts to $$ as well to keep the analysis straight forward, but cite your conversion factors.

        • Gosman

          How do you define “socially responsible” in a manner that is easily accepted and measurable?

        • Ad

          Maybe Gisborne isn’t viable anymore.

          – deprivation index is terrible.
          – average income is terrible.
          – exports bulk commodities and vegetables delivering stuff all value
          – population is in decline or at best stagnation.
          – ruined natural environment unlikely to ever recover.
          – totally reliant on Napier

          Just maybe the social life cycle of Gisborne itself is coming to an end.

          • You_Fool

            So is the answer to pack everyone up and move them out of Gisborne?

            • RedLogix

              It’s one option is it not? I don’t imagine Ad is suggesting some kind of enforced evacuation of the city, but on the other hand there is no iron-clad law of nature that says every village, town and city must forever remain a permanent feature on the landscape.

              Sometimes a place just comes to the natural end of it’s purpose; plenty of places have vanished, or shrunk dramatically and then later re-invented themselves. Maybe we should just let the place down-size to something it can sustain.

              I’m not advocating this to be the best or only option for Gisbourne, but at least we should be able to honestly examine it.

            • Ad

              Up to them.
              But they are leaving.

          • Pat

            I recall that Invercargill was suffering population decline a couple of decades ago….curiously their population was around the same size….it would be interesting to know whether theres a pattern amongst population areas of a certain size.

            • Ad

              But Invercargill has been slightly luckier.

              – Dairy boom
              – Tourism boom through Te Anau, Fiordland, Stuart Island,
              – Queenstown international airport proximity
              – Anchor industry in aluminum smelter
              – Sustained growth in seafood farms
              – Very go-ahead economic development agency
              – Trusts still intact preserving social capital
              – Related to Trusts, free tertiary education for locals into the Polytech
              – Big rebuilds of town centre coming up

              They have their own recipe, and it’s working so far.

          • mauī

            Ah what.. Gisborne is one of the best growing areas in the country and provides high value crops. That idea makes as much sense as banning all agriculture on the Canterbury plains.

            Gizzy also has some our longest settlement histories. We may as well disband New Zealand and move to Australia.

            • Ad

              Let the bumpkins grow their pumpkins.

              The veggies would support one corner dairy and one trucking company.

          • cleangreen


            I came to live in Gisborne from Napier in 2005 and am now a captured soul of Tariawhiti (Gisborne) as it has nice souls, gentle people, good climate and sunshine hours, and most of all the best beaches and fishing in NZ.

            I am now living my dream, – that we need to leave this beautiful place in a better place than when we came here.

            You say all this is not worth fighting to save?

            Just remember they spent ‘ billions on securing Kaikura’ again and will need to spend more later, didn’t they?

            This was only because it had a good fishing and beach history to draw tourism to, – and guess what so does Gisborne.

            But you have not lived in the mountains like I have; – high above the ranges that slowly drop back gently to reveal the beauty of rich scenery that is the valleys of Urawera National Park.

            That scenery daily reminds me why I am drawn here and this region holds some of the most beautiful scenery and lush native fauna that enyone has ever seen with lakes dotted around the ranges that make up this magnificent part of our country.

            If we can find a route through from Gisborne to the murupara and Fort Galatea valley flats, that gently lowers to the Kawarau basin that leads us all to either Tauranga or Rotorua, that scenery alone will make this railway the jewel in our crown of where everyone will one day want to come travel on this rail journey to discovery to find the hidden beauty that is up in the Urawaras.

            This value alone will make the proud Iwi who live here proud of what this beautiful place holds for them and visitors alike.

            Tourism is our key card here now, as we know how much money value Government has placed on Tourism.

            So this alone will enrich this region you regard as not worth staying here for.

            I hope that in my last years, i will see my own mokapuna travel on the ‘Urawera Express rail line’ before I leave this world.

      • OnceWasTim 1.1.2

        More short term thinking @ Wayne.
        It would provide a link to the Port of Tauranga for sea freight. I also seem to remember a freight interchange being built in the Hamilton/TeAwamutu area fairly near the airport which might provide a link for future airfreight.

        But since (as Cleangreen points out), proposals were interrupted by Wars, it may well be that the world’s economy going tits up will interrupt such a proposal since we’ll be worrying about our own needs rather than growth growth growth and exports of unprocessed logs.

        And equally – as you say – towns along the way could be revitalised (e.g. Murupara itself)
        Oh, and btw, there was also a proposal years ago to extend the Murupara line through to Taupo (though Winnie has suggested Kinleith to Taupo in more recent times).

        That’d really satisfy your Ocean-going Cruise ship dwelling mates during their NuZill stopover. They could do the old Tauranga/Mount M thing, then hop on a train to Taupo for some fishing

      • DH 1.1.3

        You might be surprised there Wayne. That would open up large sections of the Urewera National Park to more visitors and could revitalise the whole area. The TranzAlpine has been pretty successful.

        We’ve got prisons full of people who’d jump at the chance to get out in the fresh air and earn some decent $$$, learn a trade. Some smarts and lateral thinking could get that railway built for a very low cost to the Crown.

      • cleangreen 1.1.4

        Wayne Mapp, said
        “A rail connection between Gisborne and Murupara would almost certainly cost hundreds of millions and hardly be used.”

        We are not surprised the National Party clingons like you are not interested in regional railways.

        That was painfully made clear to our communities on the East Coast, when John key (your hero) allowed Steven Joyce to steal the rail maintainence budjet from the Gisboranse rail line in 2011 that cused a layoff of 12 of the 14 rail maintainence staff to be laid off and that was what caused the drains to become blocked and washed out the Gisborne one km s ection of track that closed the Gisborne to napier rail service for the last six years.

        National only close rail services not open them!!!!

        But stangely national in a reversal of their anti-rail stance, rushed iin to help restore the kaikura to picton rail line in 2016-17 up to the election.

        So we would now expect national to support our call to re-open the Gisborne to Wairoa rail line again now.

        Wayne Mapp – you (as usual) will not want to see any regional rail services to re-open.

        What ever happend to the “kiwi can do” in your ‘National party negativeness’?

        Grow some balls like our forefathers did to build our rail system again.

        The road freigjht folks dont want rail as it wikll affect their bussiness interests but they took 80% off the rail when it was de-regulated so what goes up may come down.

        As for building a rail line over to Murupara, it will be used as a freight and passenger/tourist route much mare than if we had a connection to Auckland instead of going down through HB and to Palmerston North then up to Auckland as it being done now.

        In 2012 the CEO of Kiwirail said on RNZ that if the Gisborne line was connected to Bay of plenty or Waikato he wouild have not vlosed the Gisborne line to Napier as more services would be needed.

    • bwaghorn 1.2

      You must be joking a rail through ruatahuna from murupara … ?? You ever been in there. ? You might as well just build the whole thing as a tunnel.!!

      • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1

        You might as well just build the whole thing as a tunnel.!!

        An excellent idea. Would it be longer or shorter than this one?

        • OnceWasTim

          Indeed again.
          Can’t, Won’t, Impossible, Risk, Expense, Stacked Cost-Benefit Analysis, Too Hard, Can’t Be Done, No Way, Fault lines, Subsidence, rinse and repeat, and spin dry with a load of road lobby (albeit, casting aside the cost benefit analyses, dangerous trailer couplings, paid and bought for ‘official’ advice, and all the rest of it ………….., and finally an “end of story” chant

          Jeeze @ Wayne, and @Bwaghorn. And here’s me thinking you were the ones pushing aspiration, entrepreneurship, weight.above.punching and all that kaka.
          Just as well you weren’t around when the Main Trunk Line was built.
          We’d still be worrying about the Mangawekas and Raurimu – though I’m sure you’d be the first to front up when a gold spike was driven
          It won’t be too long before the 3rd Whurl is showing us up (well actually they already are)

          Christ @ Wayne, even Rob, Tam and a shit load of lilies would be rolling in their graves, or on some compost heap.

  2. marty mars 2

    Gods I miss the weka and her moderating, I miss the diversity of views other than pale dudes who think their view is all that counts, I miss the nuanced debate. This place sucks when the cocks take over.

    • mickysavage 2.1

      Agree Weka was very valuable. I tend to be very laissez faire in my moderation. We have had a few internal discussions about tone and content without getting anywhere . Still working on it …

      • simbit 2.1.1

        I read TS less, and engage less (never posted much). Use to post on Interest.co.nz but can’t reestablish account for some reason (called Hickey out for not censoring racism once but not sure why I can’t get back on). Pundit likewise never acknowledged my request.

        Like tv, promises so much, delivers so little.

    • JanM 2.2

      It feels more like a kind of battle fatigue to me. There was plenty to jump up and down about before the election, but now we’re all sitting in front of some sort of tv sitcom not sure what to think of it all. No point in saying much even if one was inclined – it just provides opportunities for trolls to start on their truthiness crap and the whole conversation becomes very boring!

      • mickysavage 2.2.1

        Also its the maturing of the blogosphere. I have noticed similar signs at Pundit, Kiwiblog, Daily Blog, Imperator Fish, Public Address and a few others.

        Facebook is in decline. Much of the blogging talent now relies on twitter.

        It is an interesting phenomenon.

        I do think that we at TS could think about a revamp.

        • Sanctuary

          Perhaps the ability to one click promote a good post into an article?

          • Bill

            That has been done on a few occasions, and I’m all for it.

            But whereas today there are three people with the wherewithal to do that on site, often enough there’s no-one around.

            We also have permission to cross post from some other blogs. But again. Time.

            In the broader scheme of things, my reckons is that without a government to harangue, some authors found themselves with less or nothing to say. (I think I said this back-end just after the election when r0b said he was stepping back or down and concerns about the dropping volume of posts was expressed)

            And the same probably applies to readers and commentators.

            I think I might be right in saying that of active authors, I’m the one with the most free time that could be spent on the site. And much as it would lead to paroxysms of joy for some, the reality is that I’m not willing to “micro manage” this place as others have previously done because, among other reasons, bullshit and burn out.

            Nick Kelly might become more active, as might Korero Pono. And maybe, one day, suggestions that would spread the admin load, and take the onus off of individuals (and kill the inevitable reaction to their perceived personality) will be taken up.

            In the meantime…

            • RedLogix

              some authors found themselves with less or nothing to say.

              Yet oddly enough we live in times when there is more to be said than ever before, but feel like saying less than ever.

              What we ran headlong into was the ‘freedom of speech’ issue; we should be honest about that. We all played a part.

              • Bill

                Freedom of speech issue? Sorry, you’ve lost me, unless you’re referring to the general haranguing, labeling and shutting down and out of CV for being a disillusioned liberal going to very odd places looking to find his feet again . Which, for the record, I think was fucking lamentable.

                • RedLogix

                  The entire episode over CV was the headline issue; but symptomatic of a deeper issue. Over the years I had come to see moderation as a deeply conflicted tool; yes it has it’s place and purpose, but it could be so easily misused. Especially by those with strong views and a weak tolerance of opposing ones.

                  Critically we had lost sight of the importance of imposing moderation evenhandedly; that the rules as such had to be consistently applied regardless of the ideology. Of course some ‘ideologies’ are off-limits, we understood how to draw a line at race supremists, all the common garden varieties of vulgar bigotry, and the various forms of denier types.

                  The problem came when the idea of boundaries morphed into a confining trellis of left-wing purity; more and more conversation became off-limits, more and more people self-censored rather than deal with the aggravation and shaming.

                  It’s a truism that the ‘left eats it’s own’. I think that’s because we don’t deal with this kind of conflict well, it becomes too personal too quickly. Because naturally we are all people who are attracted to new ideas, to change and reform, we struggle a lot with the boundary between our ideas and our identities. Attack the idea and we immediately tend to feel attacked ourselves.

                  The natural and understandable response is to defend yourself with the tools at hand; and for some this meant using moderation in a way it was clearly not suited for. It may generate a short-term relief, but it causes more problems than it solves. And when someone intelligent and articulate like CV pushes back, you get mayhem.

                  • Bill

                    And maybe, one day, suggestions that would spread the admin load, and take the onus off of individuals (and kill the inevitable reaction to their perceived personality) will be taken up.

                    Open Mike 09/07/2018

        • Gosman

          How is anyone misrepresenting other people’s views here?

        • Anne

          If I may put in my cent-worth mickeysavage.

          TS has lost some top line authors in the past couple of years. I refer to karol and now weka who I came to regard as the ‘new karol’. We also lost several other authors who were clear thinkers and good writers. We lost some top line commentators too such as Felix and Pascals Bookie. TS has been the poorer for no longer having them around.

          It seems to me that some of the RW trolls who frequent this site are only here to drive people away. I think they are succeeding. If they are only prepared to abuse, destabilise and misrepresent other contributors’ statements, then get rid of them – no ifs or buts.

          Edit: just noted Sanctuary’s comment. I agree. We have seen ‘comments’ on this site deserving of elevation to posts. In fact, if it became TS policy that good comments would be considered it might act as incentive.

          • RedLogix

            In my view the issues were not about content or ideology as such, but around the use and misuse of moderation which created most of the tensions which led to authors stalking off in a huff as it were.

            Yes there will be stupid comments and abuse; but for the most part any mature person will have sufficient confidence and strength of character to rise above them. Moderation is useful for trimming off the most toxic, blatant trolls and misbehaviour, but for the most part we rely on people self-educating and learning to fit in with the community. Resorting to arbitrary, ‘no-ifs, no-buts’ censorship is an excessive wrong-headed response that causes WAY more problems than it solves.

            • mauī

              Very much agree with your comments here RedL.

              The commentary is more interesting when moderation sits nicely in the background. Also whenever moderation is used the question of fairness and bias goes hand in hand with it, that’s why I believe it’s better to be used as a last resort. There’s also the temptation for a moderator/author to use it to control/manipulate/silence others and that can have very nasty side affects.

              I think what would work best is if authors were totally seperated from the moderation work. You would need new volunteers that had responsibility to moderate the site and that only. I would see those sorts of people as being open minded, not holding strong beliefs/bias, encouraged debate, and could step in when a rule was broken.

            • Anne

              Resorting to arbitrary, ‘no-ifs, no-buts’ censorship is an excessive wrong-headed response that causes WAY more problems than it solves.

              I think you have misunderstood my intention Redlogix. Perhaps I was not clear enough.

              I was referring only to those who abuse and/or attempt to belittle left leaning contributors by misrepresenting them. There have been quite a few occasions recently when they have been allowed to get away with it. They shouldn’t… because it puts potential new commentators off and that is unfortunate.

              The long term R.W. regulars on TS are rarely the culprits hence their longevity – even if they do cause my blood pressure to rise now and then.

          • Puckish Rogue

            “It seems to me that some of the RW trolls who frequent this site are only here to drive people away. I think they are succeeding. If they are only prepared to abuse, destabilise and misrepresent other contributors’ statements, then get rid of them – no ifs or buts.”

            The problem is though who decides who is, and isn’t, a troll? Some on here think anyone supporting a right view is a troll but it simply isn’t that cut and dried

            The problem with calling for mass bannings is that its a pretty blunt instrument however, as someone thats had more than their share of being banned, I’d say the moderators have it about right or at least about as right as you can expect it to be

          • McFlock

            I agree to a certain extent, but also think there might be some burnout from the election adrenaline and also the polarisation within non-tory commenters regarding a variety of issues (and I own my own part in that, although I’m trying – trying – to be a bit less shirty in those discussions, and simply can’t be bothered somethimes).

            And it’s the new year, so people might just have stuff going on in the real world.

        • Booker

          The ability to expand and collapse comment threads would be handy in order to make it easier to navigate and see comments with higher numbers without having to scroll down the page so far

      • Hongi Ika 2.2.2

        Used to visit this site regularly however it has become infested with trolls like Gosman who appears here everyday distracting constructive comment ?

        • Gosman

          Like your racist comments below about Chinese immigration you mean?

          • Hongi Ika

            Not racist factual.

            • Gosman

              You think Irish people are more inclined to organised crime than English people. How is that not racist?

              • marty mars

                You should be banned for life from posting here imo.

                • RedLogix

                  We all understand how and why you dislike and disagree with Gosman’s particular view of the world. But truly marty are you so very narcissitic that you think yours is the ONLY way of viewing the world that it should be privileged above all others? Do you not understand there are other people who see the world differently to you?

                  Because if you want to extend your disagreement with Gosman to ban and silence him (and “for life” is a term that carries an absolute and sinister connotation) … then exactly what would be your argument against someone who would like the same imposed on you?

                  • marty mars

                    Yeah sure – I rate you less than gosman red. Do whatever you want.

                    • RedLogix

                      OK so you’re in a cynical and nihilistic mood today; sincerely I hope it gets better for you.

                    • cleangreen

                      Marty cant you learn to be civil?

                      We are tying to be constructive here, and if you just criticise without offering a solution you deliver nothing to the site.

                      We all are trying to offer our solutions but should not be ridiculed & scolded for our efforts to contribute.

                    • marty mars

                      Okay although I’m pissed off and struggle with both you two I will take the advice given. Thanks.

                  • JanM

                    My main irritation with Gosman, and his type, is that the comments he makes, for the most part, seem to be less for the purpose of expressing his opinion and more for the purpose of derailing the conversation.
                    My second source of irritation is the one who answers him and his ilk; thus giving them oxygen. Gotcha! There’s another conversation that could have been of interest dead in a ditch while some of us play word games with mischievous trolls and the rest of us walk off to do something more exciting like doing the dishes!!

                    • RedLogix

                      Yeah … you’re on the nail there. Gosman likes playing about and he’s prone to overdoing it.

                      Still it makes him a great foil to play against; he responds well to a decent argument and a good faith effort to counter him. The best way to deal with his word games and excesses is simply to name them and call them out honestly.

                      It’s good practice to hone your own thinking and rhetorical skills.

                    • Gosman

                      My main interest on The Standard recently has been about freedom of speech. Care to explain how exactly I am derailing the topic about freedom of speech or are you just making gross generalisations about me that are based on nothing more than your prejudiced opinion of my views?

                    • Stuart Munro

                      @ Gosman

                      Why is the onus always on us to explain your lack of contribution to the community of discourse?

                      Why can’t you make meaningful contributions instead of trolling?

                      You’ve obviously got plenty of time on your hands – make a guest post – make a real argument for a change.

                      Or it that not compatible with your brief of ideological suppression?

                    • Sacha

                      My second source of irritation is the one who answers him and his ilk; thus giving them oxygen. Gotcha! There’s another conversation that could have been of interest dead in a ditch

                      Yes, too many commenters here are baited into a reaction every bloody time. No learning from experience.

    • bwaghorn 2.3

      It was probably the start of the end when less educated fools (myself included) were allowed to hang round.
      And people like lanthinide left . Also banning the likes of Psycho Milt. Wtf

    • RedLogix 2.4

      Your views count too marty. If you want more diversity of opinion and ideas here, then do the work and contribute constructively. The more you do it the better you’ll get at it.

      Expect push-back and controversy, don’t expect everyone to fall over and agree with every syllable you print, take the knocks and bruises with some dignity, and then get up and make a better case next time.

      There is a natural tension of viewpoints here; we are all quite different people with different experiences of life; start respecting that a bit more and you’ll start having all the nuance you can handle 🙂

  3. Robert Guyton 3

    Elegantly expressed, marty mars and couldn’t be said better. Feels somewhat soulless around these parts, these days…

    • Puckish Rogue 3.1

      Personally I think the election has a large part to play in it, in that a lot of the posters here had (for a lack of a better word or explanation) a lot of passion in their postings because National was in government

      This meant there could lots of posts of what the government was doing wrong, why its wrong and how the left could do it better (and the very occasional John Key eats babies posts 😉 ) whereas now the battle has been won, National is ousted, Sir John Key retired not out and now we can all enjoy the fruits of a Labour led government

      Or not

      • Stuart Munro 3.1.1

        It’s partly a natural hiatus.

        There was a certain relief at the departure of the kleptocracy – for all that many of their corrupt minions remain in their positions, sabotaging the public interest for personal gain. And for the most part it’s too early to really get stuck in to the coalition’s shortcomings.

        • Puckish Rogue

          “And for the most part it’s too early to really get stuck in to the coalition’s shortcomings.”
          Well for some 😉

          • Stuart Munro

            Yeah well you’re so biased and useless you can’t be bothered waiting for real ones – so you run crap like the attack on Parker. And you deliver false framing like attacking Clark for improprieties that proceeded his appointment as minister, that, had you a shred of integrity, you’d have sheeted home to Coleman or his predecessors.

            • Puckish Rogue

              I am biased but I recognise I’m biased (at least most of the time)

      • mauī 3.1.2

        “Key retired not out..”

        Though not in the heroic Don Bradman way…

        Instead it was like continuing to bat on even though the chances of winning the test match were getting slimmer by the minute. The crowd getting more raucous calling for a declaration and Key continues to bat on. Even the coach is sending out a message to declare and it’s ignored. He eventually walks off the field 101 not out, a good personal achievement amidst a shocking defeat to a hodgepodge opposition comprised of three different nationalities. He runs up the tunnel straight to the dressing room and gives no press conference. Months later still nothing is heard from him and no one really mentions that last innings…

        • Puckish Rogue

          He’s gone, let it go, let it go 🙂

          • Stuart Munro

            I suppose you want all serious criminals released Pucky. Birds of a feather eh. Better for society however if justice is served and unmitigated scoundrels like Key and his accomplices are not allowed to profit from their wrongdoing.

            • Puckish Rogue

              Quite the opposite actually and if anyone, and I do mean anyone, is found guilty they should be punished accordingly,

              However I’m not in favour of mob decisions, or justice

              • Stuart Munro

                Smacks too much of democracy.

                And of course, crooks are no fans of justice.

      • millsy 3.1.3

        Or perhaps people just have a change in circumstance and aren’t really in a position to comment much anymore. Or, cannot be bothered commenting.

        Or, in CV’s case, just become a diciple of Jordan Peterson and sit on Twitter all day sharing posts about how evil feminism is.

  4. The Chairman 4

    Taking the centrist ground doesn’t seem to be working out too well for this Labour led Government.

    In fact, it seems to be disappointing both sides of the spectrum.

    Despite touring boardrooms and their Budget Responsibility Rules, this Labour led Government is struggling to get any traction in building business confidence. Meanwhile, their Budget Responsibility Rules are fiscally constraining their ability to win-over workers (nurses, teachers, etc) in their up and coming wage rounds.

    What are they to do?

    Move further left (recommended). Move further right? Or stay on course?

    • McFlock 4.1

      Workers are feeling empowered and business managers feel less confident.

      I don’t see much of a downside…

      • The Chairman 4.1.1

        Low business confidence tends to result in less investment, thus less employment opportunities.

        And while workers may feel empowered, it’s wages that better reflects their value is what they are largely seeking.

        Nevertheless, your answer seems to suggest you recommend the Government stays on course.

        • McFlock

          I have no major concerns.

          Business confidence has little relationship to how the country actually does. I wouldn’t be surprised if a similar non-relationship existed with unemployment.

          • The Chairman

            GDP is the measure of economic growth, not business confidence. So of course the two aren’t going to necessarily correlate.

            Therefore, it’s possible for there to be higher GDP growth compared to business confidence or vice versa.

            Nevertheless, what’s being overlooked here is if business confidence is high, more businesses would invest or businesses would invest more, further stimulating the economy, thus adding to GDP growth.

            As for the political bias mentioned in your link, it further brings into question Labour’s decision to maintain their self imposed fiscal constraint when it isn’t appeasing business concern and those in business aren’t likely to vote for them regardless, but is potentially putting their core support at risk.

            • McFlock

              Paragraph three contradicts the first two. Paragraph three also is inconsistent with the real-world observations reported in my link, that business confidence does not positively correlate with GDP.

              As for paragraph four, it ignores the possibility that the main reason for the fiscal restraint was to simply make Tory fear mongering to voters, and used their own “business confidence” boogie man against them.

              • The Chairman

                “Paragraph three contradicts the first two.”

                No, it doesn’t.

                “Paragraph three also is inconsistent with the real-world observations reported in my link…”

                No, it highlights what was overlooked in the report in your link.

                “As for paragraph four, it ignores the possibility that the main reason for the fiscal restraint was to simply make Tory fear mongering to voters, and used their own “business confidence” boogie man against them.”

                If that was the reason, it was a failure as well.

                • McFlock

                  Failures like being in government I can live with.

                  As for whether “aren’t necessarily going to correlate” (and the real data that shows no correlation) contradicts “…would… thus adding to GDP growth”, good luck fighting the English language with that.

                  • The Chairman

                    “And the real data that shows no correlation”

                    The data from your link shows otherwise.

                    Nevertheless, the main relationship between GDP growth and business confidence is how it adds to growth (as I explained above).

                    For example, we’d be better off with low GDP but high business confidence opposed to low GDP and low business confidence. Because when businesses are feeling confidant, they are more likely to invest, regardless the level of GDP, thus stimulate the economy.

                    I don’t believe those that voted to change the Government did so because of their Budget Responsibility Rules. In fact, it was rather controversial when introduced and still is today. Even the Greens are having second thoughts.

                    We’ve heard it time and time again, many from the left don’t want a National lite.

                    • McFlock

                      Whatever you believe, you’re a Monday morning sports fan saying you know better than the team that won.

                      Results speak for themselves. You have none.

                    • The Chairman

                      Labour’s Budget Responsibility Rules didn’t put them into Government but maintaining them may well see them out of Government for some time to come.

                      If Labour don’t deliver on the expectations they helped build up and come next election people find they are worse off than when Labour came into power, it could be the death of them as a political main player.

                    • McFlock

                      So you say. But they’re the ones who ended up in government. You just reckon you know better.

        • cleangreen

          The Chairman,

          I’m happy that this ‘labour coalition’ is running the country now.

          We are seeing changes now back to a much more ‘Environmental aware administration’ – than when National was roting the system.

          • The Chairman

            When compared to National (which is rather a low bar) Labour tend to look like the better alternative.

            Personally, I hold them to a higher standard.

    • Gabby 4.2

      ‘Confidence’ does seem to be synonymous with ‘impunity’ chairy. Businesses seem less confident in getting away with heinous shit.

      • The Chairman 4.2.1

        To some extent I agree, Gabby. Nevertheless, Labour Governments have never fully ceased businesses getting away with “heinous shit”.

    • Robert Guyton 4.3

      Chairman, it’s not done to try to guess true identities, but are you Eeyore?

    • corodale 4.4

      Ask Prince Harry to kick out Scotland to break Europe surprisingly early. As they reform in the foam, together with Ireland in a Greater Britian on a single currency. NI returns to the south, as a back door to undermine Rome’s strangle hold. Meanwhile, we re-peg our currency back to the pound and let the US sink with Israel and all the other babylonian bankers, back to Atlantis.

      That should clear the way for, high level select committes on Social Credit and UBI.
      Expecting the meat in the second round, but hope for announcements much earlier.

      Perhaps 4 terms in govt would be neat, help the child gently through the 9 year crisis, as it dawns on us, just what the world is.

  5. Hongi Ika 5

    Police concerned about P use and consumption in New Zealand ?

    Jim Bolger was warned by the British Intelligence Services in Hong Kong about letting too many Asian immigrants into NZ, back when Hong Kong was handed back to China.

    Jim was warned about the infiltration into NZ of the Asian Crime Syndicates.

    There is a direct correlation between the rise in P consumption and the importation of the active ingredient of P and the number of Asian immigrants coming into NZ.

    Asia is the major supplier of the active ingredient for the P manufacturing industry here in NZ.

    • Gosman 5.1

      How many of the Asian immigrants since the 1990’s have come from Hong Kong?

      Do you know or are you just scaremongering with little clue?

  6. Hongi Ika 6

    Not specifically Hong Kong but Asia as a whole, different countries were discussed and the different crime syndicates associated with those particular countries.

    Bolger and successive NZ Government’s have chosen to ignore that advice hence we are in the position NZ is in now.

    Not scaremongering purely discussing reality and facts ?

    • Gosman 6.1

      You linked it to the handover of Hong Kong so it was a reasonable assessment on my part to think that is what it meant. Regardless do you think Chinese people are more inclined towards organised crime than people of other nationalities? Should we not accept Russian or Italian immigration either? The Irish were well known mobsters in the US. Should we refuse to take immigrants from there or even people from Irish backgrounds from other nations?

      • Hongi Ika 6.1.1

        Not racist factual.

        • Gosman

          Racist because I doubt your views would extend to many other nationalities with a history of organised crime

      • Hongi Ika 6.1.2


        • Gosman

          You would specifically exclude Irish people from Immigration to NZ because of fears of organised crime would you?

      • Stuart Munro 6.1.3

        Migrant group crime tendencies are a reasonable thing for immigration to follow, and weight applications in favour of more law abiding groups.

        It’s well established that P is mostly Asian sourced. Not Korea or Japan so much though. Peddling citizenship through fake academic studies has been an Indian or Pakistani trope, as have numerous related fake employment scams. And the English are overrepresented in fraud.

        These are factors that should affect the number of points required for working visas or residency.

        • Gosman

          You want a nationality based points system do you?

          • Stuart Munro

            In respect to criminality it shouldn’t be ignored.

            And unfashionable though it may be to say so in progressive circles, some cultures are relatively poor fits for ours even in the absence of crime. The Somali refugees were one of the less compatible groups we attempted to resettle, whereas the Tampa refugees impressed most people who had anything to do with them. That kind of information ought to guide policy to some extent because ignoring it repeats mistakes.

            • Puckish Rogue

              Huh while I agree with the sentiments it could quite easily be abused so it’d have to be done very carefully

              • Stuart Munro

                My understanding is that it was done for many years, quietly. Some groups may have lobbied to change that, which is undesirable – it’s a public policy setting, it shouldn’t be allowed to become political. And it needs to operate on local data – Gosman claims Irish criminality in the US – but if that data isn’t replicated here it’s mere prejudice to use it – though it’s fair to investigate to see if there is a parallel.

                • Gosman

                  If Somali’s have a higher rate of crime in NZ you think we should make it more difficult for them to migrate here?


                  • Stuart Munro

                    In the case of the NZ Somalis it’s not so much a level of crime per se as what might be described as social dysfunction and difficulty integrating. There are exceptions, but those involved in resettling migrants have found Somalis do not thrive comparably with other groups. Somali refugees might fare better in majority Muslim countries like Indonesia.

                    As for the Lebanese, they’ve not to my knowledge established a comparable criminal reputation in NZ, in fact a number have visibly prospered by legitimate means.

                  • McFlock

                    Big “if”, by the way.

                • Gosman

                  What about the Lebanese / Arabs given their involvement in organised crime in Australia?

            • Gosman

              Interesting. You are essentially agreeing with the principles behind Trump’s ‘Muslim’ ban.

              • Stuart Munro

                There are no principles behind Trump’s Muslim ban – only prejudices. US domestic terrorism, things like school shootings and the state sponsored kidnapping of migrant children, is so high as to render Muslim efforts trivial.

                Nice trolling though, you sick racist shill.

  7. Puckish Rogue 7

    I hope her cheese has well and truly slid of her cracker otherwise the implications are staggering:


      • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1

        In that case hopefully there’s a few people feeling very uncomfortable at the moment…

        • marty mars

          Yes probably many and they will come out hard probably with ‘she’s got a mental issue’ – be good to keep an eye out for that talk i think.

    • marty mars 7.2

      What a disgusting wanker peckish rouge – youve got no decency, no morals and ZERO mana. You’re dead weight and shit.

      There are predators everywhere – they wear suits, they sit at the top, middle, and bottom, they appear innocent. The claims are devastating to EVERYONE concerned and I hope they are investigated. Such a shocking tragedy – arohanui to all victims.

      • Puckish Rogue 7.2.1

        The point I was trying to make was if shes merely not right in the head then there isn’t a pedo ring operating and thats a good thing (not for her but the rest of the country) but if she isn’t then that means there probably is a pedo ring operating, at the highest levels and thats a very bad thing

        I’ll accept your apology when you’re ready to give one

        • marty mars

          “not right in the head” – that right there is where you cross the line. You are offensive because you start from that assumption and dress it with ‘ifs’ and ‘maybes’ but only youngsters get sucked in by those tactics. You know it and i know it.

          • Puckish Rogue

            No, you assume it and therefore it is

          • RedLogix

            OK guys … breath deeply and back up the bus.

            PR … you could have framed your first comment smarter. Yes she’s making a big claim and many people will be at least a little skeptical; but leading with her mental health was not the brightest tactic around here.

            marty … back off on the personal abuse. Really. I know you had an angry reaction, but control it.

            This is a classic example of how flames start; you could both make it a good example of how to stop them.

            • Puckish Rogue

              Agreed, I shouldn’t have been so flippant when it comes to mental health

              • marty mars

                Provide a link between the person you denigrated and mental health? I’ll help – link to your own comments because you are the ONLY person doing that.

  8. Observer Tokeroa 8

    Moderators are inclined to support those who flatter them.

    I prefer the open clear statements of commenters who do not necessarily set out to please Moderators, but to discuss and widen the topic even if it displeases the Moderator – provided the discussion is pertinent.

    Which is the current situation.

    I do not condone any disrespect towards Management or Moderators. Nor do I condone any disrespect towards a commenter.

    Which again, is the current situation.

    If there is a sense of “Depression” among those who write on here – it is very likely because “First Past the Post” is by far the best way of achieving a clear cut majority vote in a democracy.

    All sorts of oddities emerge – under any other voting system.
    Concurrently, all persons with a seat in Parliament should have been voted in by the public. Thereby preventing Gerrymander.

    • simbit 8.1

      Gerrymandering was/is instrumental to FFP in the US.

    • Draco T Bastard 8.2

      it is very likely because “First Past the Post” is by far the best way of achieving a clear cut majority vote in a democracy.

      History tells us, quite clearly, that it’s the worst way. There are several times in our history where the winning party didn’t get a majority of votes.

    • Ad 8.3

      I just don’t get enough flattery these days.

  9. fender 9

    Getting very tired of hearing that drip Bridges on RNZ trying to create the meme “Shane Jones slush fund” every other day.

    • arkie 9.1

      Agreed. Giles Beckford, however, was a very effective interviewer this morning, I would be pleased to see him conduct more interviews outside of the holiday periods.

      • veutoviper 9.1.1

        Agreed, arkie. I was really impressed with Giles Beckford this morning (and from memory he was on last Friday as well and is on for the rest of the week in place of Suzie). In fact at the moment I am feed up with Guyon and would like a break from him! LOL

        And as for Bridges … Don’t even get me started, but I think he should remain as Nat Leader !!!!!

    • Puckish Rogue 9.2

      Can’t think why Bridges is saying it:


      ‘Sixty per cent of funding distributed so far through the billion-dollar-a-year Provincial Growth Fund has gone to Northland. ‘

      • Hongi Ika 9.2.1

        The other areas have not submitted their applications yet, selective grizzling by Slimin Bridges, or shall I say Simon No Bridges ?

      • Hongi Ika 9.2.2

        Room for growth in Northland it has been a deprived area for a long time ?

        • Gosman

          Do you wonder why it may have been a deprived area?

          • Pete

            Can’t think why. We’ve had only a handful of non-National MPs (including Matt Rata) since 1940 and those National MPs have been brilliant for the region.

            Their legacy sees a great rail network, outstanding highways and secondary roads, a buoyant economy built on great employment opportunities right through the region, Māori happy with schooling, a positive progressive outlook, and as a consequence of all those things, few social problems.

    • cleangreen 9.3

      Same here fender.

      RNZ and TV1 featured him but newshab ignored him thank god, he is such a wimp.

  10. Carolyn_Nth 10

    I now have given up trying to login to TS using Firefox browser. No amount of clearing cache or history fixes it. I get:

    Bad Request

    Your browser sent a request that this server could not understand.
    Size of a request header field exceeds server limit.
    Apache/2.4.29 (Ubuntu) Server at thestandard.nz Port 443

    I now read TS on FF – there’s something about being continually logged in to TS on a browser that impacts on this I think? And I post comments using a Vivaldi browser that enables me to login to TS, and which I use sparingly for TS.

  11. marty mars 11

    Pine trees and pasture as incubators of Kauri dieback disease?


    Not looking good this one, not good at all.

    • Gosman 11.1

      That’s hilarious. This means Shane Jones might be causing the destruction of the last remaining Kauri trees.

      • marty mars 11.1.1

        So pleased you pleasure yourself when reading about disasters – theres a name for people like you. Sick.

    • Draco T Bastard 11.2

      Should make those billion trees all natives with a 500 year protection on them.

      • Herodotus 11.2.1

        Follow the “Forest Succession & Regeneration” with the help on managed planting, with the by product in supporting the honey industry and assisting the Regional Development fund ??
        IMO this is an all win scenario 🙂

        • marty mars

          Nice link.

          Plant trees. Restore wetlands. Rest high countries. Plant flax and hemp. Reduce pasture. Grow food fruit nut forests. Plant lawns and verges with free food producers. Reduce exotic forests. Imo of course 😊

      • marty mars 11.2.2

        Yep – replanting trees and other flora has got to be the best future proofing we have.

        • Stuart Munro

          It would be good to recover the Golden Bay scallop population too – nearly wiped out by a deoxygenated particulate layer that seems to be the product of dairy intensification. A few weirs and a bit of aeration can stop that shit from killing the shell beds.

          • marty mars

            True Stuart – a shocker that and that we don’t have a fish shop in the bay.

    • cleangreen 11.3

      Yes Marty,

      I saw that article on TV after last nighht watching ‘sunday’ where the issue of forestry slah was down to planting to many pine trees, and the sunday crew asked MPI about this slash isue and they replied that “due to the million treen provincial program they may select to plant more varieties of other trees’ (native and other) rather than just pinus radiata” This may help.

      Our Iwis on the “‘East Coast” inform us that they are now planning to plan many native spiecies on the Gisborne East coast, so there are changes comming.

      They were also discussing the possibility of reqwuesting for a rail line to be placed arong the inland areas away from the East Coast road State Rd 35 as tjhey were given a Government survey department map in Wellington of a proposed rail route from north of Gisborne along the inland areas to East Cape, which we have seen also.

      • marty mars 11.3.1

        I support your call for rail everywhere – to move to the future we must look backwards.

  12. Morrissey 12

    Angry Matthew Hooton running amok on Kathryn Ryan’s show

    Hooton is out of control, bumptiously shouting down Stephen Mills and personally attacking him. It’s a fraught and fractious programme today, and the host is, as usual, utterly ineffective.

    I’d like to say I felt sorry for Mills, but he deserves everything he gets….

    Open mike 18/01/2016

    • tc 12.1

      Danger Low brow. Will that joint ever get a refresh from these shills and enablers.

    • veutoviper 12.2

      Here is a link to the recording for those who did not hear it.


      I thought Stephen Mills did well this morning. Hooton was well out of control – maybe he has had court papers served? I do agree that Ryan was yet again ineffective.

      • Gabby 12.2.1

        Hootie Blowhard is about the only person she doesn’t like to interrupt.

    • ianmac 12.3

      Yeah. Hooton must be getting really worried about this Government. Frothing he was. Decrying all and everything that was different from his point of view. As Stephen pointed out the previous Ministers of Education consulted only the few conservative Principals then dumped on the Educationalists. How terrible that all and everyone can give their point of view under Hitchens.

      And according to Hooton there will be no houses built by 2020. Really?


      • North 12.3.1

        Checked out the Mills/Hooton audio……poor Hootsie Tootsie……intimations of irrelevancy and no more clucking on the 9th floor and he turns like a snake. Very unattractive. Well done Hootsie ! Whomsoever you were trying to impress……you didn’t. Repugnantly screechy and vicious you were. Love it !

        Notice that at one point Mills mentions the inherited housing crisis and Hootsie Tootsie helplessly tosses in that there wasn’t one ????

  13. joe90 13

    The Natzi party.

    The member of the New Zealand National Party who holds John Key's old seat, which is so safe that he will still be in it in 2050 if he chooses, just approvingly retweeted Redbaiter on the topic of letting the Nazis speak. How you like them apples— Lew (@LewSOS) July 8, 2018


  14. Ankerrawshark 14

    Well I still read (and appreciate) this site daily and sometimes comment.

    We are in a different situation now folks with the new government, which is wonderful, but not perfect.

    I often read things on the standard long before I find them in the msm. I credit this site with increasing my awareness and being a catalyst to me working towards getting rid of National.

    Sometimes the scrapping on here bothers. Me a little, but I just scroll down.

    I welcome commenters like pukish rogue, because in my opinion he has somewhat of an open mind. I am afraid to have to say this, but Baba Yogi, not so much, so usually scroll past.

    Maybe we could have a list of people to ignore, unless they start presenting their views, whatever they are in a non trolling way.. i for one would nominate puckish, whose views are often different from my own to be a “worthy” contributor for want of a better term.

  15. Gosman 15

    Ummm… what is wrong with this exactly?

  16. joe90 16

    Oh dear, how sad, nevermind.

    Alt-right activist @Lauren_Southern's visa rejected on eve of Australian tour https://t.co/Mc79HhHgSN pic.twitter.com/HNNSjoHViA— The Daily Telegraph (@dailytelegraph) July 9, 2018

  17. cleangreen 17

    Yes Marty, at 11

    I saw that article on TV after last night watching ‘sunday’ where the issue of forestry slah was down to planting to many pine trees, and the sunday crew asked MPI about this slash isue and they replied that “due to the million tree provincial program they may select to plant more varieties of other trees’ (native and other) rather than just pinus radiata” This may help.

    Our Iwis on the “‘East Coast” inform us that they are now planning to plan many native spiecies on the Gisborne East coast, so there are changes comming.

    They were also discussing the possibility of requesting for a rail line to be placed arong the inland areas away from the East Coast road State Rd 35 as the road cant handle the weight size and volumes of logging trucks now, and they were given a Government survey department map in Wellington of a proposed rail route from north of Gisborne along the inland areas to East Cape, which we have seen also.

  18. Sabine 18

    to Brexit or not to Brexit

    and other assorted bullshit

    • McFlock 19.1

      Had some interesting ideas. Shame their financier/leader was such a jerk – but that seems to be a common failing in people who lead the political parties they choose to fund.

    • Hongi Ika 19.2

      The Lipstick on the PIG lead to the demise of the TOP Party ?

  19. joe90 20

    For your daily dose of pithiness

    • North 20.1

      Checked out the Mills/Hooton audio……poor Hootsie Tootsie……intimations of irrelevancy and no more clucking on the 9th floor and he turns like a snake. Very unattractive. Well done Hootsie ! Whomsoever you were trying to impress……you didn’t. Repugnantly screechy and vicious you were. Love it !

      Notice that at one point Mills mentions the inherited housing crisis and Hootsie Tootsie helplessly tosses in that there wasn’t one ????

  20. Hongi Ika 21

    The Lipstick on the PIG lead to the demise of the TOP Party ?

  21. eco maori 22

    Good morning The Am Show many thanks to the people who worked hard at the TOPS Party . Garth Morgan is a good Kiwi Bloke on one hand its sad to see him hang up his political gloves he is part of the equation that brought the national party crashing out of Government. In another view it really pleases me that Aotearoa is raising the Bar on Equality by condemning Garth for the words he used Hongi Ika is reminding us what he said the words are 20 years to late and are not accetable in Aotearoa at the Minute Ka pai .M8 You should have target one seat get in Parliament and then expand.
    Ron Marks planes purchases for our Air Force well thats trump diplomacy fullstop.
    Napier has quite a good refreshments seen thats were I did all my years of fishing and raised my children for a few years its has a good atmosphere te tangata are less raciest there and in Gisborne than other place I have been in Aotearoa .
    Mark well you look a bit seedy lol I agree with that story Duncan that there is no reason for business to have no conference Labour has a steady person at the helm and won’t do anything stupid .
    Amanda the beautiful Ra riseing over Tangaroa in Ngati Kahanunu whenua shining through the Napier sound shell.
    Chorus is doing a good job rolling out fibre optical internet around Aotearoa Ruatoria has fibre ka pai I will keep encouraging tangata to get into computa coding and gaming .
    I see you had a bit of drama yesterday I missed the power cut a coffee cart generator kept you on air thats a good yarn to tell in the future yes there is a lot of good Tangata in Napier I use to take my children to the Napier Aquarium all the time.
    Ka kite ano

  22. eco maori 23

    Here is the truth about How Tangata whenua are treated in Aotearoa from
    Chris Trotter link below.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/102768966/racism-and-colonisation-are-inseparable-twins-chris-trotter Ka pai .Ka kite ano P.S Eco Maori will be advocating for a tax break for tangata whenua because of the theft of OUR whenua this will give a lot of those right wing rednecks a lot of sleepless nights ana to kai

  23. eco maori 24

    This is how right wing people behave lie lie lie Mosanto round up I heard of storys that people would us this prouduct with out gloves ect and eat there food after using this poison its quite simple if it kills some thing its going to have a bad effect on any living organism its a poision these people were told it was that safe they could drink it
    .Link below

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jul/09/monsanto-trial-roundup-weedkiller-cancer-dewayne-johnson Ka kite ano

  24. eco maori 25

    Good evening The Crowd Goes Wilde Makere and James I pick England v France as the final game of the Russian held Football World Cup that would be a great game to watch Astrix and Obelix was a nice touch .
    I am hoping someone will win the Matariki Maori Sports awards but Eco Maori is not saying who .
    I will be watching some good Rugby Union and League on the weeked as well as the Foot ball World Cup. Ka kite ano

  25. eco maori 26

    Eco Maori Music links below ka kite ano

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