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Open mike 09/06/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:30 am, June 9th, 2014 - 253 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

253 comments on “Open mike 09/06/2014 ”

    • i was talking to a middle-aged lady over the weekend..

      ..whose husband is in stage four cancer..

      ..and she told me that she has been told (unofficially) that after his latest round of chemo..

      ..that rather than him going on to morphine…

      ..that cannabis would be better for him…(especially high-potency cannabis-oil..which has demonstrated the power to shrink tumors..)

      ..so she now has to go and find some hash-oil..somewhere..)

      ..i took two takeaways from that..

      1)..how fucken ‘sick’ that is…that someone in the final stages of cancer ..has to turn to the blackmarket for relief for his suffering..when a proven low-risk palliative (at the very least..maybe more..)..is to hand..

      ..and for fucken why..?

      ..’cos some national party fucken piss-ignorant rednecks..have cowed gutless-politicans into silence/bowing to their will..

      ..and why am i talking about/bringing this up..?

      ..why the fuck isn’t the spokesperson for (say) the greens..?

      ..going on breakfast tv to argue the logic/humanity of a law-change..

      ..who is that green party spokesperson on that issue..?

      ..you wouldn’t know..(where’s fucken waldo..?..)..but it’s hague..(who knew..?..)..the green party cowardice on this issue..is beyond fucken contempt..

      ..and they roundly deserve their long-suffering/ignored constituency on that issue..

      ..to walk from them..to the internet/mana parties…

      2)..why the fuck are these cancer-doctors not going public on this..?

      ..they are offering this off-the-record advice..?..w.t.f..?..

      ..someone in a white-coat talking about cancer-patients vomiting their guts out..(when they don’t need to have that added layer to their suffering..

      .(.it’s just the will of those pig-ignorant/provincial-rednecks the national party serves/cowers in front of..)

      ..these cancer doctors speaking out might even cause politicians like (but not only) hague..

      ..to grow a set of fucken balls…

      • Gosman 1.1.1

        Are you attending the NORML conference this weekend perchance?

        • phillip ure

          did not even know it was on..

          ..(and don’t get me started on ‘cannabis-warriors’..who fell-silent..and morphed into legal-high peddlers..eh..?


          ..and as it’s campaign-financing goody-bag time..

          ..we’ll probable hear again soon from the aotearoa legalise party people..(person?)

          ..and for the first time in 3 yrs..

          ..where have they been..?

          ..and what have they been doing on this issue..in the interim..?

          ..just sitting around smoking bongs..?

          ..and waiting for the next election-campaign-funding goody-baggie to turn up..?..)

          • Gosman

            Isn’t that your chance to actually make a substative difference to the debate on Cannabis in NZ as opposed to posting here and on your blog which largely gets ignored?

            • phillip ure

              i have as much chance of an invite from them..(see above..)

              ..as i am likely to get an invite to jamie ‘just do nothing about climate-change!’ whytes next ayn rand appreciation society meeting..

              ..and given the stunning-silences from them..for so long..

              ..i wd question yr criticism of me for posting @ whoar..and here…

              ..if not me..here and there..

              ..fucken who..?..and where..?

              ..to me..the silences from all who should be speaking up/out..

              ..is fucken deafening..

            • Tiger Mountain

              NORML and Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party are largely ghettoised and subject to negative stereotyping similar to say Voluntary Euthanasia advocates and other one issue groups. Little progress has been made in decades by NORML their conference is highlighting Colorado experience so far.

              Cannabis debate has been bouncing for a week on facebook via the IMP pages so maybe cannabis reformers should make links there.

              I am for general legalisation and urgent attention to medical cannabis. But not putting time into an ineffective one issue group.

              • that coming out by laila harre..and that debate on this issue on the internet party site..

                ..has been a rare gust of fresh air..

                ..and welcomed..

            • phillip ure

              “.. and on your blog which largely gets ignored?..”

              ..i wont rise to yr slur on my work..

              ..save to say that one day people will notice that there is a local news-resource – that brings them a best-of from local/the world..every day..(40-50 new stories/links..every day..)

              ..and with/having built up over time… a hand-picked best-of searchengine of over 90,000 best-of’s..

              ..the value of that will come into its’ own..

              ..’till then..i’ll just plug on/away..


              ..and console myself with the 20,000 rss subscribers i have..

              ..and the over 20,000 other websites around the world that have whoar on their best-of websites lists..


              • (and of course..i am looking forward to the herald and stuff going behind a paywall..

                ..news hates a vacuum..eh..?.)

                ..and whoar will never paywall..

                ..i can promise you that..

                ..my political-imperative of free-access to (quality) news/info for all over-rides those/any commerical-considerations..

              • ’till then..of course..you have the supermarket-giveaway quality herald/stuff to read/rely on..eh..?


                • and maybe rawdy on breakfast telly for yr political-analysis..eh..?


                  ..this morn there was that (3 day-old) story about the spikes being put in the ground outside buildings in london..

                  ..to deter/stop the homeless from sleeping there..

                  ..’rawdy’..obnoxious oink that he is..was all for this idea..

                  ..and that if it were the case..he wd be urging his body-corporate/whatever..to do just that..

                  ..eh ‘rawdy’..?

                  ..even his co-compere seemed a tad shocked at ‘rawdy’ taking his callous/uncaring/fuck-the-poor!-side out for such a public-trot..

                  ..but he clearly could not suppress/hide it..

                  ..he just thought it was..all in all..a good-idea..

                  ..and if you weren’t watching..

                  ..you missed ‘rawdy’ giving ‘no worries!’ key..

                  ..his usual mon-morn reaming-out/rimming..

      • minarch 1.1.2

        god forbid you grow your own medicine,

        I mean where is the profit in that i ask you !

  1. amirite 2

    I had a good laugh when I was reading this porkie:
    “Prime Minister John Key says National would have refused to accept some votes of Act MP John Banks had he not said he would quit Parliament.”


    • ianmac 2.1

      Espiner asked Key this morning about his not accepting Bank’s vote. Key dodged the question (of course) but I wondered how they could refuse a vote from an elected MP. If they could then they could pass any legislation that they liked by say, not accepting votes from Labour. Clever?

      • logie97 2.1.1

        Sounds like a good Tui ad in there somewhere.
        The sad thing is that 50% of the electorate appear to accept whatever shit he tells them.
        Look at the different stances Key has taken since the court findings last week.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 2.1.2

        We’re supposed to believe that they wouldn’t have introduced legislation that relied on his vote, I think. Not that Key says that: what he says has no practical meaning: it’s an invitation to interpretation.

  2. Ad 3

    Anyone else do the Labour Zone 1 list conference on the weekend?

    I liked a couple of things.

    1. Degree of organization
      All electorates had clearly pre-debated with ranked lists. They had their shit together. This saved a lot of time and energy. The most successful candidates had worked very hard with blocs beforehand. It was well chaired.
    2. Fluid Blocs
      Alignments between electorates and sectors were usually temporary; supporting one candidate and not necessarily the next. This is a pretty mature attitude.
    3. Civility
      Despite everyone’s egos being traded live on the floor, there was only the necessary bruising of democratic full-contact rather than any real blood. There was also a noticeable smarts to the timing of some candidates, who despite being enthusiastically nominated early, made clever tactical withdrawals to come in uncontested later. I suspect being low in the polls and few gaps from retirements helped the reality of that.
    4. Skill emphasis
      None of the candidates told us they were donor rainmakers, washed up semi-celebrities, dick-swinging egos, or retreading from successful careers. The most successful ones figured out that what the party wanted were superior organizers and told us so. Even the “rebalancing” for gender etc criteria was handled gracefully.
    5. Life
      Every participant could see the joint was fizzing, with difference, with organisational drive, and with initiative.

    For the price of membership and a delegates tag, well worth the entertainment. And good democracy to boot.

    • Not a PS Staffer 3.1

      The seats were hard. My bum is sore. That is a high price for democracy.

      • Ad 3.1.1

        Skinny-arsed young people. 🙂

        I wasn’t in my seat for more than 5 minutes at a time.
        Apart from whipping, there was too much gossipping and scheming to do, and simply enjoying the micro-politics with the contestants.

  3. Wyndham, George 4

    Jamie Whyte is shyte. He was interviewed by Michael Wilson on TV3 and was a blithering stuttering mess!
    The Labour Strategy for Epsom must ask our supporters to “hold their noses” and vote for National.

    Labour should only have Party vote signs up and no no no electorate mp signs.

    • Tiger Mountain 4.1

      How bizarre. To help stick it to the right you need to vote for them!

      Glad I don’t live in the enclave of Epsom. Don’t feel bad though left voters that have the misfortune to reside there, you can still party vote to your conscience and ‘alter’ a few ACT hoardings.

      • phillip ure 4.1.1

        i wd love to be living in the epsom electorate..

        ..left voters in epsom are more empowered than in most other seats..

        ..they have the power in their hands to both kick the clowns from act out the door..

        ..and to bring down this ruinous rightwing govt..

        ..i don’t have that power living/voting in mt albert…

        ..i am suffering from power-envy..

        ..and you’ll get no crocodile-tears from me..

        ..about/over ‘poor-lefties’ in epsom..

        ..being ‘forced’ to tactical-vote for the national party trout..

        ..they should fall upon those ballot-papers..and give that electorate-tick to national..with gibbering-delight..

        ..i know i would..

        ..(and they can still give their (usually) more-important party-vote for their tribe of choice..


        ..watching genter from the greens..and the labour guy..dancing around this issue on wknd telly..

        ..had me both face-palming and banging head on desk..)

        • phillip ure

          f.y.i..banned from editing comment..4 mins + still to run..

        • phillip ure

          and of course..the other empowered voters on the left..

          ..are in dungs’ seat..

          ..and in the two maori seats contested by harawira and annette sykes..

          (..i also suffer power-envy when thinking what they have at hand to do..)

      • Tracey 4.1.2

        that would be me tiger.

        My first election i lived in doug grahams electorate. For a few after that in helen clark’s and since 2002 in the epsom enclave. Thank god for mmp or one feels totally disenfranchised

      • Gosman 4.1.3

        Are you advocating someone breaks the law to help influence an election?

    • Tracey 4.2

      i fell asleep. Literally

    • Gosman 4.3

      Jamie Whyte doesn’t have to appeal to you. He just needs to appeal to right leaning individuals.

      • phillip ure 4.3.1

        do they appreciate mumble-fucking idiots..?

        ..do they..?

        ..those ‘right leaning individuals’..?

        ..so a gibbering-monkey/bag of flour cd actually stand for act in epsom..?

        ..is this what you are saying..?

        • Draco T Bastard

          do they appreciate mumble-fucking idiots..?

          The seeming answer to that is if they’re told to by National.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 4.3.2

        …and he was the best you could get.

      • Tracey 4.3.3

        go read the party and electorate voting in 2011 in epsom… If john banks couldnt attract party votes…and he couldnt, jamie whyte isnt going to attract anything. National is giving act the most right leaning seat in the country and the greens get more party votes than ACT?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 4.4

      @WG I watched the interview and was surprised, because Mr. Unclecousin’s default setting until this point has been a blithering stuttering mess.

      This time he was relatively articulate. His argument’s still shyte though.

  4. Jenny 5

    An unfortunate choice of words.

    The corporate world is concerned about water quality, but this is not a good thing, the corporates are worried that an incoming Labour Green government may enact legislation to improve water quality. This comes hard on the heels of the news that the corporate’s choice of government, National, want to gut the Resource Management Act, RMA, to give economic concerns equal weight to environmental concerns.

    Primary sector leaders are nervous about the outcome of the election, reports KPMG New Zealand.

    This is one of the key themes of the KPMG Agribusiness Agenda, titled “Facilitating Growth in an Uncertain World”.

    KPMG interviewed more than 150 leaders for its fifth edition. Many were concerned about the prospect of a left-of-centre coalition, and the impact it might have over issues such as water quality and infrastructure.

    Stuff.co.nz June 9, 2014

    I can hardly believe what I am reading. What on earth are we to make of this? An incoming centre Left government is unlikely to want to make water quality worse, So the corporates must be concerned that they may want to make it better!

    The corporate sector are publicly raising worried concerns over better water quality!

    This statement is extraordinary blunt. What has gone wrong? Usually entities like KPMG are usually much better at spinning us some silky storyline than this.

    The sheer arrogance of these statements by National’s corporate cheer leaders shows that this country can barely afford another 3 months of this National government, let alone another three years of these corporate lackies.

    To match this Right Wing threat to our country, the Left will have to be equally blunt and determined. Labour throw the seat of Te Tai Tokerau, if that is what it takes. And to rid our parliament of National’s rabid Right support partner urge your supporters in Epsom to vote Goldsmith,

    I think that KPMG and the rabid Right are spinning out of control, they need to take a chill pill and take a little time to listen to Dr Vandana Shiva on water quality vs Growth

    • Ad 5.1

      TVNZ reported Labour’s alternative thus:

      “While honouring any contracts already in place, Labour would replace the Crown Irrigation Fund, established from the proceeds of state asset sales, with a freshwater pricing regime to encourage economically marginal irrigation schemes.

      “With a new irrigation proposal where the economics are just breakeven, as they often are, then maybe the price of water for the first 30 years is next to nothing,” said Parker.

      Parker also outlined numerous other planks in the party’s environmental platform, including a National Policy Statement to protect estuaries and resurrection of a plan for national freshwater management devised under the last Labour-led administration.”

      Labour shows that replacing the current regime with a properly priced allocation would give KPMG plenty of consulting work to get on with, should a Labour coalition win.

      Perhaps Mr Parker should call the Chair of KPMG and remind him that this major policy change will rack him major billable units, and the Crown’s got major direct interest in irrigation through its many farms and shareholdings. Figure it out KPMG.

      • Colonial Viper 5.1.1

        Pricing of eco-services being the way of the future? More market mechanisms to bring us environmental solutions, is that the idea.

        Where is the mention of tough nutrient limits and ensuring minimum flows.

        • Colonial Viper

          “Ecosystem services”

        • Ad

          Apart from a virtuous few, farmers tend to only respect market mechanisms.

          • vto

            bullshit they do. There is nothing free-market about the Central Plains Water scheme. They have received welfare from taxpayers and ratepayers the entire way through and continue today to ask for it. Bludgers.

          • Colonial Viper

            Apart from a virtuous few, farmers tend to only respect market mechanisms.

            Not correct I’m afraid Ad – farmers will respect Regional Council plan rules and decisions when they have been fully discussed, community consultation carried out and the measures are seen as necessary, fair and reasonable.

            In Otago water quality Plan Change 6A, now in force, is the perfect example.

            • Jackal

              I’m not so sure about that Colonial Viper. In a recent survey it was found that most farmers don’t give a rats arse about water quality. Also, the Plan Change 6A (PDF) still allows pH, temperature changes and suspended solids at reasonably high levels.

              Furthermore, these rules allow for discharges above where communities water supply comes from as long as the discharge is publicly notified. So a business can effectively contaminate a water source so it can no longer be used as long as there is a small notice in the paper.

              Gaining resource consent to pollute is still in place (with a few provisions that such pollution shouldn’t be seen or smelt by the public) and as always these rules rely on adequate monitoring by the council. Like most other regions in New Zealand, the Otago council will be made up of people with a vested interest in keeping the status quo and there will be no proper system in place for testing and enforcing these rules.

              Therefore it’s just business as usual whereby our waterways are treated as a drainage system by big business and the farming industry.

              • Colonial Viper

                You’re not going to get a 100% solution but to describe this as business as usual is pretty mean-spirited Jackal. Just look at how crappy the situation in Southland is compared to Otago, for starters.

                Otago now has amongst the tightest regs throughout the entire country – ones with the support of local communities, the Feds and environmental groups.

                Like most other regions in New Zealand, the Otago council will be made up of people with a vested interest in keeping the status quo and there will be no proper system in place for testing and enforcing these rules.

                Yep. Enforcement is always going to be a challenge. But very few in Wellington understand the issues down here. They certainly could not have delivered anything as good as Plan Change 6A, not by a long shot. Try running something like this out of Wellington without local support and see how far you get, mate.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Local support helps but, at the same time, I think we need national level rules else we end up with some of the country being good and most of the rest being bad.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    How are you going to get national level rules when soils vary up and down the country as do water management approaches for different geographies and climates. Like I said, most Thorndon bubble types struggle and struggle with the nuances.

                    • McFlock

                      At the most basic level, the problem areas are particulates, nitrates, ph and temp.

                      So water quality monitors at top of property, monitors at bottom of property, any addition/subtraction happened in that stretch of waterway. Where the waterway is the property border, or there are outfalls, place monitors on each side of waterway and adjacent to outfalls.

                      The national rules would be a basic level of per cumec change in water quality, or per km waterway.

                      There are some pretty good remote monitors around now – realtime telemetry, and if too much fertiliser runs off that’s money out of the farmer’s pocket.

                      Or if an overflow valve jams on the wine vat, as one story comes to mind…

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      You’re micromanaging too much. The national rules would specify maximum levels of pollutants, the local rules would take into account soils etc and then specify ways to stay below those maximum levels.

                    • McFlock


                • Jackal

                  So if you say Plan Change 6A is really good without providing any other reasons, I should just take your word for it Colonial Viper? Where is the support from local communities exactly and what environmental groups are in favour?

                  I’m not saying it has to be a 100% solution (straw man) because that’s currently impossible and pointing out the reality of the legislations failures isn’t mean spirited at all. I’m in fact being a realist about the situation.

                  From actually taking the time to look at Plan Change 6A it appears to not be too dissimilar from regulations in other parts of the country, which basically amounts to business as usual. In fact many of these regulations appear to be exactly the same as the ones in force in places like Taranaki which has terrible water quality problems, mainly due to agriculture and the fossil fuel industry.

                  Public consultation really amounts to very little at all if there is no proper enforcement when the rules are broken. The rules throughout Plan Change 6A appear to be designed to allow Otago’s waterways to continue to be polluted. For instance, the suspended solids and pH levels allowed will likely mean the water quality in that region will show no improvement at all.

                  In my opinion this would only amount to a mediocre plan if there was no pollution to begin with. It’s certainly not a “good” plan because it will fail to achieve anything of real value for the environment. It will of course provide a bit of PR for the council, which I suppose is the main reason for its development.

          • Draco T Bastard

            I’ve got a great market mechanism – if the farm pollutes the waterways the farm is nationalised with the farmer keeping the debt used to buy it. Oh, and we’ll lock up the farmer for 5 years and have it so that they can’t be in any management position ever again.

      • millsy 5.1.2

        Irrigation schemes should really be at least 51% controlled by local or central government. Like they used to be when the majority of irrigation schemes were controlled by the old MOW before 1988, and MAF there after until their sale to farmers in 1990. I do see the economic and social value in water storage for irrigation purposes, but allowing private sector interests to drain rivers and lakes while domestic and recreational users get pretty much nothing is quite sickening. Having some public ownership of irrigation schemes, ensures that the public interest is kept, with revenue (farmers dont seem to have any objection to paying for power) going towards water conservation efforts.

        • Chooky

          +100 millsy

          • Chooky

            And the problem of water in New Zealand is minuscule compared with other overpopulated countries

            …a very good reason to halt immigration from large grossly overpopulated countries which stress water supplies

            …lets face it overpopulation stresses water supplies particularly in overpopulated cities..Auckland already has a water problem!


            China has 20% of the world’s population but only 7% of its fresh water. A former prime minister, Wen Jiabao, once said water shortages threaten “the very survival of the Chinese nation”.

            The shortage is worsening because China’s water is disappearing. In the 1950s the country had 50,000 rivers with catchment areas of 100 square kilometres or more. Now the number is down to 23,000. China has lost 27,000 rivers, mostly as a result of over-exploitation by farms or factories.


            ….” rising temperatures are only part of China’s problems, many of which have resulted from overpopulation, aggressive industrialization and a huge reliance on elaborate engineering schemes to irrigate crops and harness scarce supplies.

            …”China’s water shortages stem more from problematic urbanization and water resource management, rather than the scapegoat of climate change,” said Zhou Lei, a fellow at Nanjing University who studies how industry affects the environment.

            …”In my home town in Jiangxi, the water system consisted of underground springs, ponds, wetlands, brooks, streams, and seasonal rivulets, but all these have been totally ruined in the last 20 years due to a catastrophic urbanization plan, a construction mania and transport megaprojects,” he said.



    • Jenny 5.2

      [2:44] We are repeatedly told by every politician in every country that we have got to have more growth to remove poverty, and the metaphor is the cake must get bigger for the people to have a bigger share, especially the poorest…..

      [ie raising GDP]

      [5:12] …when the abstract starts becoming the measure for the real world and for life, that’s when the destructiveness starts. Because.every abstract that relates to living systems must have a feed back, must check how is this measure working. Is it delivering on what I said would happen, or is it failing? The problem of using GDP as an abstract is that it insulates itself from feedback. And no matter what scale of destruction takes place there is no way to feed it back in.
      [5:58] I know that there are some rough calculations that actually if you take China’s growth and India’s growth and add the destruction of our rivers, just our water bodies and our rivers because of pollution, we would be having negative growth, [it is] just that, that pollution isn’t even counted. How have we reached the place that we can sacrifice our world for a flawed abstraction.

      Vandana Shiva Festival of Dangerous Ideas 2013

      • Gosman 5.2.1

        Except systems where individual liberty and freedom are more highly valued generally have better environments that those where the supposed neeeds of the collective are paramount. To see this you just need to look at the horrendous environmental catastrophes that occured in the former Soviet bloc.

        • vto

          complete simplistic bullshit

        • framu

          yeah im calling bullshit on that one aswell

          i bet you cant even prove correlation let alone causation

        • freedom

          View post on imgur.com

          that shelf must need reinforcing by now 🙂

        • dimebag russell

          what a lot of tripe.
          what about the world bank calling the NZ ETS scheme a rort.
          The thing about being free is if you dont like it then you can always f*ck off.
          hint hint.

        • Draco T Bastard

          Except systems where individual liberty and freedom are more highly valued generally have better environments that those where the supposed neeeds of the collective are paramount.

          We have one of those systems and our environment is turning into a blocked toilet for cows.

          Damned RWNJ, always denying the reality of what’s actually happening for their ideology of what they think should be happening.

        • millsy

          Coming back to this, I must point out that during those times, it didnt matter what political and economic system held sway. The Kremlin’s Central Committee was no less committed to development and economic growth at all costs than the White House Cabinet. Factories in the Urals were as free to dump as much toxic waste was factories in Michigan. No one cared in the world of the ’40’s, 50’s and 60’s, about environmental impacts.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.3

      This statement is extraordinary blunt. What has gone wrong? Usually entities like KPMG are usually much better at spinning us some silky storyline than this.

      They’ve gotten lazy after having National, who kowtows to all their desires, in government.

  5. Marius 6

    The giant behemoth Brownlee ‘doesn’t take advice from tourists’ regarding the lol – ‘rebuild of Christchurch’. Meanwhile the Christchurch mayoral legacy comedy show rolls out the next skit involving temporary pumps in case the Flockton basin is flooded. What a fucking joke. More than three years down the potholed road and we’re at the temporary experimental pump stage. I really do think Lianne Dalziel is morphing into the great Gadsby Jon.

    • cricklewood 6.1

      Pumping stations are a well recognised method of preventing or mitigating flooding in low lying areas… a permanent fix when the ground has dropped so much will be extremely difficult considering the geography.

      • Te Reo Putake 6.1.1

        Yep, had a look a few days ago at an Amsterdam building development where every shovelful of dirt comes out wet. Pumps and drainage channels were operating from day one. It needs to be remembered that Chch is built on a swamp. Good on Lianne Dalziel for getting stuck in and making sensible decisions around the rebuild. If only the previous administration were as on to it as she is.

    • Lanthanide 6.2

      “I really do think Lianne Dalziel is morphing into the great Gadsby Jon.”

      She’s been in the job for less than a year, most of which has been playing catchup for the appalling job the last mayor and council did.

  6. (one for that clown from act..jamie ‘just do nothing about climate-change!’ whyte..)

    “..9 Political Cartoons That Put Climate Change In Perspective..”


  7. North 8

    On The Savage Cost Of A Cuppa.

    Still being paid it would seem – Firstly, it breathed life into Winnie at the time. Secondly, would ‘anonymous’ mayoral race funding have got anywhere near the High Court if Banks hadn’t taken Epsom on a high tide of tea and arrogance ?

    Kia Ora New Zealand
    Now listen you well
    There’s sage old advice
    In the story I tell

    A Feisty called Banks
    A Bankster called Key
    Fulsome with thanks
    Sat down for some tea

    The air was thick
    On Broadway that day
    Two rorting pricks
    With cups all asway

    Each other they doted
    They bullshitted on
    And smarmingly voted
    For John and for John

    See how we love
    Smirked they to the people
    It’s we are above
    And you are the sheep-le

    The people cried “No !”
    They smell-ed a rort
    Neither stupid nor slow
    “This crap it ain’t sport !”

    In handsome numbers
    With vigorous burst
    They got off their bum-bers
    And ticked NZ First !

    The moral you see
    Important you trust
    Choose beer over tea……
    When it’s power you lust !


  8. chris73 9


    • I completely agree with this but I’d take it further and have an inquiry into all cases of alleged electoral shenanigans where the police failed to act
    • Tracey 9.1

      perhaps the first step chris is for you to oia the minister of police and ask how many mps have been referred to the police over electoral issues and how many moved on to charges.then call for a widening of the enquiry.

      • chris73 9.1.1


        • Cameron Slater already tried but I think part of the problem is its been going on for years (decades?) and maybe we do need something new as suggested in his post
        • Tracey

          I dont click links to whaleoil.

          Was his oia refused on the grounds of too long to research? So why not just agree to a finite period from computerisation of recordsd?

          • chris73

            If you can’t be bothered reading it then I can’t be bothered explaining it

            • One Anonymous Bloke

              Let’s assume that it is authored by a piece of right wing trash who mocks dead children’s families and discount it with contempt on that basis alone.

              • Rodel

                Sorry No clicks to Wo .Don’t want to soil fingers. Nice try tho’.

              • McFlock

                I find it fascinating that c73 apparently thinks that there’s no point in his trying simply because slimeboy didn’t succeed.

                He obviously doesn’t want to succeed enough. We should not make him dependant by helping him, he needs to be responsible for his own inaction on the matter.

            • dimebag russell

              well if thats the way you feel about it then you should just piss off.

    • Draco T Bastard 9.2

      I’d take it further and have an inquiry into all political donations. Especially Cabinet Clubs and high priced dinners.

  9. Bearded Git 10

    A good Morning Report for the left today at last:

      Key sounded like a blithering idiot on Banks as Espiner gave him a hard time.
      Andrew Little spoke well on the need for an enquiry into why the police didn’t prosecute Banks
      Good coverage of Labour’s just announced policy of an Earthquake Court
      Labour’s spokeman on Pacific Affairs made it clear that Key had been telling lies on his Pacific trip and made the point that National has made it harder for Pacific people to come into the country.

      Now we just need a few more weeks like this and to stop infighting (of which there is far too much on The Standard) and the election will be won.

    • Tracey 10.1

      thanks for your summary bg, didnt hear mr this morning.

    • Gosman 10.2

      National has made it harder for Pacific Islanders to come here have they? I thought that would please the Labour party as they wish to reduce immigration numbers at the moment.

      • Bearded Git 10.2.1

        Yes National has made it harder for Pacific people to enter the country Gosman.

        Listen to MR (at 8.38-Sua Willem Si’o Labour Pacific Island Affairs spokesman) and better still listen to Wallace Chapman’s show yesterday where this was brilliantly discussed by Pacific Issues correspondent Karen Mangnall (at 7.17) where she described how National had slyly made it harder for Pacific people to enter Godzone.

        Try and work with real facts Gosman.

        • Gosman

          Would you agree that this would satisfy the Labour party’s recent prounoucements on reducing immigration numbers at the moment?

          • Jackal

            The contradiction is with National saying they won’t limit immigration numbers while targeting Pacific people to do exactly that Gosman. The overall amount of immigration at the moment is not sustainable but specific ethnicities should not be targeted. In effect National is being both racist and contradicting their own political stance on the issue.

          • Draco T Bastard

            Stop trying to distract from National’s ongoing lies Gosman.

    • ianmac 10.3

      Agreed BG.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 10.4

      Espiner to Key, with a little laugh: “Aren’t you in another reality here?”

      • Rodel 10.4.1

        OAB Yes but Espiner still manages to sound obsequious.
        Why doesn’t he just say, “You’re bullsh***ing aren’t you?”

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          I would prefer he said something like “after all, this is just another example of the low ethical standards you set, isn’t it?”

  10. Tracey 11

    When does the pmb for paternity leave reappear? Was thinking, with banks vote gone, and english saying he would veto, the maori party would be caught in a pincer?

  11. Bearded Git 12

    Just thinking, ACT has no MP’s in parliament now at all. It also polls close to zero.

    This probably doesn’t matter but can anyone out there think of any implications this has for election funding, election coverage, party status, anything else?

    • Gosman 12.1

      ACT is currently polling as well as the Mana Party on it’s own so I doubt that it would make much of a difference.

      • Jackal 12.1.1

        Only in cloud cuckoo land does a cut from $163,000 to $77,000 in broadcast funding not “make much of a difference” Gosman. Please get a grip because your arguments are decidedly pathetic!

        • Gosman

          Why would Act lose their broadcast funding?

          • McFlock

            possibly this:

            What factors must the Commission consider in allocating time and money to eligible parties?

            The law requires the Commission to consider the following factors in allocating time and money to an eligible political party at a general election:

            the number of members of Parliament who were members of that political party immediately before the dissolution or expiration of Parliament; and

            • Gosman

              Selective quoting of articles is tending towards the dishonest. There are a number of factors impacting broadcast funding and that is but one influence. I doubt the commission will not provide any funding or reduce it to less than they were entitled to when Banks was in Parliament.

              • geoff

                Hah! But it’s ok for Farrar to do it eh! You’re a complete hypocrite, gosman

              • McFlock

                I doubt the commission will not provide any funding or reduce it to less than they were entitled to when Banks was in Parliament.

                So you don’t think that the level of funding will be influenced by one of the six (and only six) factors the commission “must consider” when allocating funding?

                Not that you actually give a shit, anyway.

                • Gosman

                  I’ll tell you what. If ACT receives significantly different funding and broadcast time to say what United Future gets (in the negative) I will make a formal acknowledgement that you were right and I had no clue. Will you do the same if they don’t get less than United?

                  • McFlock


                    I’ll wait for the outcomes of resulting complaints to the electoral commission, first.

                    Why you tories always want to reduce these issues to a wager is beyond me. Oh, I forgot – it’s just a game to you. You don’t give a shit about mass unemployment and child poverty at 27%.

              • Draco T Bastard

                So, you’re saying that Act should still get the same funding as if they had an MP despite not having an MP?

                • Gosman

                  I’m stating that is likely what will happen. Whether they should or not is a different matter.

            • Bearded Git

              Nice one McF.

              I think it would be worth Labour/Greens asking questions on this. The number of MP’s at dissolution appears to be important for funding. I guess ACT still has rich backers like Alan Gibbs, though even he might be throwing in the towel with wallies like Whyte and Seymour in charge.

              If nothing else asking the question would accentuate how completely and utterly useless ACT has become (or always has been?).

      • KJT 12.1.2

        ACT. Frauds, thieves and criminals who never take “individual responsibility” for them-selves, while advocating “sink or swim” for the victims of their policies.

        I hope there will come a day, when all those who inflicted the neo-liberal religion on the unsuspecting public, for the last 30 years, are bought to justice.

    • veutoviper 12.2

      The Electoral Commission released the advertising (public) funding for each party on Friday night, as reported in this Herald article on Saturday.


      The article sets out the criteria for the allocations. Both National and Labour’s funding has been cut, while NZ First and the Greens will receive higher funding this election.

      Taxpayer funding for National and Labour’s election campaign broadcast advertising has been cut for this year’s election but the Greens and NZ First will enjoy a substantial boost. …

      The Maori Party’s funding is slashed by $60,000 to $100,000 while Act suffers an even deeper cut, going from $163,000 to $77,000 — the same amount as new entrants the combined internet Mana party, Peter Dunne’s United Future and former NZ First MP Brendan Horan’s likely political vehicle, the NZ Independent Coalition.

      Colin Craig’s Conservative Party receives $60,000, up from $20,000 in 2011.
      Among the minnows, satirist Ben Uffindel’s Civilian Party gets $33,600.

      Taxpayer funding for party political broadcasts during this year’s election campaign:
      • National: $1.05m
      • Labour: $919,829
      • Greens: $401,380
      • NZ First: $200,690
      • Maori Party: $100,345
      • Act: $76,930
      • Internet Mana: $76,930
      • United Future: $76,930
      • Conservative: $60,207

      I presume that Banks’ resignation will not affect these allocations, but could be wrong. If so, I am sure we will hear this soon. I will check the Electoral Commission’s actual announcement to see whether it says anything as the Banks’ guilty decision would have been known at the time of the announcement with its likelihood that he could be gone.

  12. karol 13

    Internet Party Independence Policy – on TPPA, GCSB, FATCA (Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act).

    Mainly it’s looking for more transparency an more democratic procedures for deciding on such matters – and not to be just a client US-state, doing whatever the US asks.

  13. Gosman 14

    The downside of nationalisation of foreign owned banks.


    I believe at least one of the regular comentators here were advocating something similar for NZ.

    • vto 14.1

      total simplistic bullshit

      • Gosman 14.1.1

        Not really. The people who advocate for foreign banks to be partially nationalised (exactly the same sort of policies that Zanu-PF were pushing until recently) never see a downside. That is the simplistic BS. All policy settings have pros and cons. The negative impact of threatening to partially ‘indigenise’ or nationalise foreign owned banks is capital flight. Zimbabwe illustrates this in spades.

        • vto

          simplistic nonsense begets simplistic nonsense

          • Gosman

            Care to expand on this or has this become your new mantra for anything that challenges your world view?

            • vto

              the onus is on you mr simpleton, that is the entire point

              • Gosman

                The onus is on me to do what? If it is that there is a downside to threatening to nationalise or forceably divest foreigners of their stake in banks I believe I have done so.

                • sorry gossie..just shouting ‘zanu-pf!’ in a crowded-theatre..

                  ..comes nowhere near cutting it..


                  • Gosman

                    I’m not just shouting Zane -. I provided a link to an article which highlights what happens when you promise to ‘indigenise’ 51 percent of the banking sector. Credit dries up and business else’s have a hard time finding their operations.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      Credit dries up and business else’s have a hard time finding their operations.

                      Well then, they probably shouldn’t have given them to the foreign corporates in the first place.

                • framu

                  why dont you throw communist in there and be done with it?

                • Colonial Viper

                  The onus is on me to do what? If it is that there is a downside to threatening to nationalise or forceably divest foreigners of their stake in banks I believe I have done so.

                  Singapore did something similar very successfully a few years ago. Rationalised its retail banking industry and told a couple of the biggest players that they were gone, thank you very much for playing.

                  Of course, it takes a gutsy capable government willing to go toe to toe with the powers of international capital to pull off a move like that.

                  • “..Of course, it takes a gutsy capable government willing to go toe to toe with the powers of international capital to pull off a move like that…”

                    i recommend that (partial-nationalisation?) minister harre be tasked with that chore..

                    ..she’ll send them packing/have them begging for mercy…

                    ..toot suite..

                    ..i mean..she got epic-raises for the nurses –

                    ..when she was their union rep..

                    ..(the most abused/downtrodden component of the health system..(aside from the cleaners..)

                  • Gosman

                    Link please.

                    • do yr own fucken research..

                      ..u cd start with a definition of ‘simplistic’..

                      “The tendency to oversimplify an issue or a problem by ignoring complexities or complications..”

                      that’s you..ain’t it..?

        • Jackal

          Well since we’re being all simplistic and shit Gosman, weren’t the Nazis into privatization of the public sector as well?

          • Populuxe1

            Nope, pretty sure the SS ran the death camps

            • phillip ure

              @ pops..

              ..oh..so funny..!

              ..what a quick wit you are….eh..?

              ..with those ‘ss’-jokes..

              ..what a wonderful fellow dinner-guest u wd b..eh..?

              ..a player with words..are ya..?

              ..is that how you earn yr daily-crust..?


              ..in gummint..?..are ya..?

        • Draco T Bastard

          Oh noes, some foreign money, which is worthless in the nation, will leave.

    • how about..gossie..if you try a little bit harder..

      ..tell us the downside of the people taking a 51% share in the banks that rule over us..?

      ..are you quite ‘relaxed’ about the $15 bn in foreign-profits sucked out of nz each and every year..?..are ya..?

      ….an amount..funnily enough..almost exactly the same as our annual ‘deficit’..

      ..we aren’t in fucken ‘deficit..

      ..our problem is that profiteered $15 bn a year sucked straight out of our economy..

      ..and the people taking a 51% stake in the foreign-owned banks/supermarket-chains etc..

      .(with those shareholders bought out..and paid by a mix of initial-payment..followed by payment from annual profits..what’s not to love about that plan..?)

      ..this will keep a decent chunk of that ‘deficit’ here in nz…to be used to benefit new zealanders..

      ..fix that..and you fix a lot…

      ..and of course..having a 51% control of the supermarket duopoly..(as just one example..)..

      ..will make our upcoming war on obesity/battles for good-food..much much easier to facilitate..

      ..rather than having to fight these bastards arguing their ‘commercial-rights’ to flog unhealthy/salt/sugar/fat-laden crap..disguised/marketed as some ghastly impersonation of ‘food’..

      ..every inch of the way..

      ..so..gossie..what’s wrong with all that..?

  14. greywarbler 15

    If you want to support women and girls in India start to turn around a predatory culture of disrespect for women there, they are planning a campaign of posters to embarrass their new hard-right president. They want to draw attention to their cries for change when he is visiting the holy city of Varanasi with posters everywhere. They are asking for names of millions to show the world is watching.

    Two young girls were hanged from a tree after being gang raped in India. Shockingly a minister just responded by saying, “rape…sometimes it’s right.” The Prime Minister must take action and we can force him by delivering a millions-strong call for an end to the rape epidemic into the city where he holds his seat. Sign now:

    Alaphia Zoyab – Avaaz.org

  15. ffloyd 16

    Good grief! Could Hooton possibly get more irritating (National radio this morning). You can see why he likes key. Neither of them is EVER wrong about anything, but anybody who DISAGREES! with them is automatically wrong. No question, no doubt. And always pronounced so with that nauseating smugness they both possess. A few years ago key was asked if he thought he had ever got anything wrong and all he could come up with was that MAYBE! he could have handled the BMW situation a little bit better. To date I can’t recall him ever admitting to being wrong about anything. It is highly unusual for someone to NEVER being wrong.

    • ianmac 16.1

      MR Key and Mr Hooton both have the same saying:
      “I am always right and even when I am wrong I am still right.”

    • Gosman 16.2

      Pretty sure he has mentioned numerous areas where he disagrees with John Key and where John Key has stuffed up. I believe he stated that his handling of the Judith Collins situation has not been great and that he should have sack Heki Parata. On both of these he states the only reason he can see why he hasn’t is as a result of them being representative of a key demographic and power grouping in National.

    • bad12 16.3

      Wee Matty Hooton is totally wasted as a serious political commentator, this mornings efforts produced too many belly laughs to detail,

      Matty, to continue on in the vein of the comment i made here after lasts weeks little effort said of the Banks/Whyte/Prebble relationship that ”it would all come out in the wash”,

      It took Hooton a while to get the spin cycle to work this morning and i was thinking that He should recall the repair person who when attending to Matty’s spin cycle had obviously over tightened the belts leaving Matty way to uptight,(i could near on smell the neurons burning as He spoke),

      The effort sounded akin to a machine where the load had shifted while on ‘agitate’ thus slowing the ‘spin cycle’ to a slow grind interspersed with a number of clunks as the bricks in Matty’s head cannoned from side to side,

      By the time Matty had delved deep into the pool of ‘wisdom’,(some might describe this pool in terms of a smelly brown liquid), for the grand statement,”National can Govern alone” my aural facilities had been fatally interrupted by bursts of mad laughter so any more ‘pearls’ that escaped from Matty’s nether regions were lost to me,

      Seriously wee Matty, you sound like you have admitted to yourself the almost inevitable defeat that the ides of September will bring you, try and put some life into it wont you,

      ”And now they’re spinning spinning spinning through the magic land, heading back to the beginning of the end at the masters hand”….

      • Gosman 16.3.1

        Can you name a right leaning commentator you think would do better that him?

        • McFlock

          Chris Trotter…

        • Tracey

          what about getting one or two academics from a political science department and provide analysis.

          • bad12

            That sounds far too close to the Alice Cooper, ”Some folks love to feel Pain” song Tracey…

            • Tracey

              it would make it less like a sporting contest full of cheats and match fixers

          • Gosman

            They have them as well. However the basic political panel format is usually a commentator from the left and one from the right and the panel host. What you seem to be stating is you don’t like this format and would prefer the panel to just reflect a single or narrow view of a topic.

            • Tracey

              nope, i dont want a panel to reflect a single or narrow view of a concept, that is what we have now.

              You are right i dont like the concept because it is generally a shallow and manipulative spot to spin a view.

              What i suggest is the same topics get discussed as now, and political experts as opposed to political players discuss. In a similar manner to media watch. Analysis, criticism, evaluation of veracity, tactics etc.

              I still believe that given reliable information people can think, the current format is designed to think for people.

              BM is a good example of how that “works”

        • bad12

          Gosman, Crusty the Clown of Simpson’s fame has a certain appeal…

        • phillip ure

          mike williams..?..oh..hang on..!..he’s already there..isn’t he.?

          ..flying under a false-flag..

  16. Chooky 17

    Why the Greens will hit 15% and won’t form an alliance with National

    By Martyn Bradbury / June 9, 2014

    “How to raid into National’s soft green-blue underbelly without creating a backlash amongst their core supporters has always been the challenge for the Greens in an electoral market now too crowded on the Left by Internet MANA.

    It was a challenge I never thought they could pull off. I even compared such hunts on par with tracking Yeti and Lock Ness Besties, but the Greens over the last 2 weeks have unveiled policy that make deep runs within National territory while earning standing ovations from their core base.
    It is astoundingly shrewd tactics that haven’t been appreciated above the roar of the Internet MANA Drum n Bass block party.

    The Carbon Tax cut is genius because it targets the soft National vote so perfectly. Everyone who has the economic literacy to own a heat pump all sat up and listened to the mechanics of what was being proposed and saw its intelligent design and clicked the ‘Add to my Cart’ button with all the mercenary efficiency of upgrading an app.

    The Greens followed this up with a bold announcement on making Abortion legal. It’s a staunch stance that has real pull to progressive women and goes beyond political affiliation. I think it’s bold enough to truly appeal to young female voters inside National..”…


    Once again Martyn Bradbury hits the NAIL on the Head!…GO GREEN!

    …Lets hope that the women in Mana Party and the Internet Party also support the LEGALISE ABORTION policy !

    …….( also National and Act would do well to follow this policy if they want to keep women’s votes and in many many cases the votes of males )

    …and leave the religious nutters and male power and control freaks over women’s lives and bodies out in the cold !..(.with no place to go except to the embrace of Colin Craigs Party)

    • TheContrarian 17.1

      Why do you shill for Martyn on what seems to be a daily basis?

    • Gosman 17.2

      I don’t think Mr Bradbury would know a right leaning voter if one was sitting right in front of him.

    • bad12 17.3

      A ”bold announcement” as you attribute to the Green Party announcing ”open slather abortion for all” might in some quarters be seen as something entirely different in the vein of ”stupid”,

      In terms of electoral politics to enter a General election fighting with such a divisive policy is to invite the same situation that Phill Goff experienced during the 2011 campaign where He roared into the campaign touting the lead balloon that i suspect cost Labour % points by the truckload,

      Such policy is in my opinion better proposed by a sitting Government in its third term,

      The announced Laissez Fairre abortion policy has already cost the Green Party one member,(and thankfully the announcement was made befor i had parted with what was my intended election donation to the Party which i can now happily keep in my pocket for more deserving causes)…

      • Tracey 17.3.1

        and now you know why the big parties lie or shy away from this stuff and why colin craigs party exists, colin will welcome your vote.

        • bad12

          Ha Ha is probably all your comment is worth, if that, Colon has as much chance of securing any of my votes as, well as the Green Party who until a week ago were a shoe in to get my electorate vote,

          That after being subjected to god knows how many comments of mine you would for a moment consider that i would cast a vote for Colon says more about the vast empty spaces that occupy your mind than it does to say anything about me…

          • Tracey

            well, if you think mana will vote against decriminalising abortion you are dreaming, that goes for laila harres internet party, you seem to dislike labour, national, maori party, act and hairdo, so that left colin, or you will not vote at all.

            • bad12

              Oh you are now the all seeing oracle are you Tracey, there will be one hell of a debate among Mana Party members should the Green Party Legislation ever hit the floor of the Parliament…

          • Te Reo Putake

            If you were going to electorate vote green, then they have lost nothing, ‘coz they ain’t winning any electorates. Did you mean party vote?

            • Tiger Mountain

              …The Voice of Reason…

              …Bad is breaking up…

              • Te Reo Putake

                Walter White or Steve Austin? (We can rebuild him … we have the technology…)

            • bad12

              Nope, my Party Vote is going to InternetMana, yep a pretty symbolic withdrawal of a electorate vote that Russell might have liked to count but pretty meaningless as you say,

              Not entirely lost nothing, my intention as a member was to give my election budget to the Party while i voted for InternetMana, am not sure what the ratio is concerning money spent and MP’s gained,(am sure someone has worked that one out),

              You could say that my donation was probably worth an extra MP’s toenail clipping, of course, depending how deep the disquiet is about the abortion policy, after the extra MP’s toenail come the quick and after that….

    • Chooky 17.4

      ooops that link to Bomber Bradbury on why the Greens are so successful and will romp in!…. doesnt seem to have come up…try again


  17. karol 18

    Policies on a roll from Labour, Green and IMP today.

    Green’s Digital Manufacturing Policy (3D printing) Policy.

  18. Marius 19

    if it makes you feel okay to sit back and apportion blame to kermit the frog parker that’s lovely. The fact remains that after more than 3 years the Christchurch drainage system is still the biggest fuckup since Dunkirk. The Netherlands have been below sea level way longer than that and i seriously doubt it is criscrossed by a system of temporary pumps. My point was and still is that it is comical an international city has to sit back with fingers and legs crossed in the hope that the temporary fix might work during heavy rain. Get some bastard in here from the Netherlands or some other tourist to offer real advice on how to stop this thing going on longer than the second world war.
    P.s Ayn Rand was an arab hating headcase.

  19. dimebag russell 20

    read Rod Oram on Sunday and he says the world bank says the NZ ETS scheme is a sham an a rort. Furthermore richard preebble says Banks is an honest man. What is happening here is that we have arrived at an orwellian point where the truth has become lies and lies are truth.
    This government would have to be the most bent and corrupt administration New Zealand has ever seen.
    They have had their TURN and now its time to turn the rascals out.

  20. Marius 21

    @ gosman: anti semite! anti semite!

    [lprent: unlikely. And I can’t be bothered looking for the comment you are referring to. ]

  21. bad12 22

    Did pre-European Maori practice Invasive Abortion, befor you even think about answering such a moot you need remember that Pre-European Maori were not and cannot simply be described as a ”They”,

    Pre-European Maori were a number of what is best described as a series of sovereign nations formed around a tribal heart, thus ”they” depending upon where they lived and the Tikanga practices of that particular Tribal Nation might or might not have practiced invasive abortion,

    My view is that IF you can produce a definitive opinion that ”They” did practice invasive abortion you can along with at least a reference to an author you wish to quote,proved a specific ”They” in the form of one of those Tribal Nations i mention where you believe that Maori in pre-European times practiced invasive abortions,

    So far 2 Authors have been referred to: Gluckman LK born in 1920 i doubt had much contact with Maori that had lived their lives in an Aotearoa that was pre-European,

    Hunton RB, which Hunton RB would you be quoting from, the Hunton RB 1877-1963 sure as hell didn’t write the 1970’s view of Maori invasive abortions, perhaps it is the other Hunton RB that is quoted, the same Hunton RB that has written widely of modern abortion practices, he sure as hell did not undertake an extensive study of pre-European abortion practices,

    Elsdon Best, Tuhoe ethnographer, studied the practices of Maori in the lower North Island for most of His life and wrote prolifically and was respected by Maori for these writings much of which were simple copies of verbal history as told to Him by elders within the Tribes he worked and lived among,

    This is Best on Maori abortions practices from the Journal of the Polynesian Society:

    ”it does not appear that anything in the way of medicine was taken internally in former times in order to cause abortion, or to cause anything for that matter”,


    ”Since the natives have observed the use made of such by white people they have discovered ? many cures, generally simple remedies, decoctions of herbs etc for most complaints, and, also to procure abortions” unquote,

    Love the way Best discusses ”the natives”,(He was tho well respected by many), pre-European Maori had an abortion rite, along with fertility rites, this ”rite” carried out by a relevant Tohunga and consisted of waving the leaves of a significant tree over the womb of the woman while reciting prayer,

    Now that is the pre-European abortion practice from my Rohe which centers around the Porirua and Wellington areas of the lower North Island, and Lolz, i do not know how successful such rites were, but, invasive abortion was not practiced here by my ancestors as both the woman and the baby were simply Tapu and could not be touched…

    • McFlock 22.1

      so because the methods intended to induce abortions probably didn’t work, pre-E Māori would not approve of methods that do work?
      That’s some impressive thinkafying.

      • bad12 22.1.1

        You just about have it right Mac, i can only speak for who/what i know which is controlled from a view which i know existed in this particular Rohe,

        Tikanga says that a pregnant woman is Tapu, the baby in the pregnant womans womb is also Tapu according to Tikanga,

        Maori behaving according to Tapu and Tikanga could not have performed an invasive abortion…

        • McFlock

          but they still tried to induce abortions. Even if it was by waving leaves.

          • bad12

            You just do not get it do you Mac, i should imagine that the Tohunga of the time were not trying to induce anything,

            For anyone involving themselves in such practice was an invitation to bring upon themselves a Makutu,

            Like modern times there are probably many reasons for a woman to fear childbirth, especially if She had survived a specially painful miscarriage,

            The Tohunga according to Tikanga could neither touch the pregnant woman or the baby in Her womb, Such Tohunga according to Tikanga could not try and directly induce an abortion,

            The only means of intervention then was up to either specific Atua or Tipuna and the Tohunga would have been engaged in Karakia specifically asking those Atua and Tipuna to intervene on the pregnant woman’s behalf,

            Who says that the method did not work Mac???…

            • McFlock

              So, to clarify:

              without intending any particular outcome the Tohunga were requesting a particular outcome (miscarriage) and that it might have “worked” (the requested parties induced a miscarriage), even though saying it “worked” means that the outcome was desired and intended.

              That’s john banks-level bullshit right there.

              • bad12

                Nope, the Atua and/or Tipuna produced any abortion, well Mac it either ‘worked’ or it didn’t pick one, Yes or No???

                • McFlock

                  So the Atua and/or Tipuna produced the abortion regardless of any rite, prayers or leave-waving made by the Tohunga?

                  So why bother with all the prayers and leave-waving?

                  fwiw, I don’t believe it did “work”. But I do believe that an abortion was the intended outcome, even if it didn’t “work”. But if leave-waving isn’t an “invasive” abortion, does that mean you’re cool with ru-486?

                  • Colonial Viper

                    They didn’t believe that their actions were without deep metaphysical and spiritual consequences, McFlock, consequences which rested not just on the mother but the entire tribe, and which rebounded through time to worlds beyond this one. I am sure that their complex rituals and behaviours before during and after the entire process reflected that.

                    So why bother with all the prayers and leave-waving?

                    See my remarks above. Not that I expect you really give a fuck, as I am guessing that to you it’s all just bullshit leaf waving.

                    • McFlock

                      Pretty much.

                      But what I give a fuck about is the delusion that abortion was yet another colonial import, whereas it seems to have been the objective of at least one ritual, effective or not. Worst case scenario, medicine simply enables what was originally intended.

          • Tracey

            unless they are incredibly different to other indigenous folks on the planet, they did more than wave leaves

            • bad12

              So you were there Tracey???, you know better then Elsdon Best Tracey???, you don’t appear to know jack Tracey,

              Which Maori from which Rohe are you talking about Tracey???…

              • Tracey

                were you there bad?? Not like you to so easily take the word of the representative of the evils of colonisation. Do you think, given she was tapu, pregnany maori women procuring or inducing abortions invitedthe very white male mr best to watch? How are you doing reconciling infanticide amongst maori?

                Dont pull the if you are not maori you cant comment shit unless i can say you cant comment on abortion cos you have never been pregnant, and i have never said that.

                • bad12

                  Unlike you Tracey i do not base my thinking around a simpletons knee jerk, have you proof of infanticide and the further proof of where and by which Tribe(if any) that such was practiced,

                  As i said i will examine any evidence i can find of such later, such examination usually consists of a number of hours and unlike you i do not take ”probable” to mean anything except a ”slur” cast…

            • bad12

              Fiji Tracey??? that’s got as much to do with pre-European Aotearoa as the Earth has to do with Mars,(probably less when i think about it)…

            • Tracey

              clook bad, calm down. I posted it in response to someone else about indigenous practices.

              You can believe that maori are the only people in the history of humans who didnt abort foetuses. It is just an unlikely scenario. The word of a male who is unlikely to have been privy to women procuring such abortions is only part of the story.

              Abortion has been tabu, or tapu in all societies and it hasnt stopped it happening.

        • Tracey

          and abortion is a crime in nz, and was VERY criminal prior to current legislation, and yet abortions were performed.

          Are you conveniently ruling out herbal induced miscarriages?

          • bad12

            i am specifically ruling out nothing, Elsdon Best writing in the Journal of the Polynesian Society said that Maori that He had lived among and studied had no such herbs that induced abortion,

            Such herbs did not come into use until the Pakeha arrivals introduced them to Maori, as far as i know Best is in fact the best authority when it comes to written histories of pre-European Maori having as the saying goes gained the knowledge straight from the horses mouth,

            If you know of a better source of information on pre-European Maori feel free to provide us all a hint…

            • Tracey

              Looks like abortion amongst maori was rare, for the reasons you state, so instead they practised infanticide

              Anthropologists have found that abortion has been used as a method of birth control in nearly all societies that have been studied (Derereux, 1955) irrespective of social attitudes or legal prohibition.

              With regard to the pre-European Maori, Gluckman (1971) has shown that while abortion did occur rarely, it was probable that infanticide was practised more often, as there existed strong mythological opposition to abortion.

              Nineteenth century European colonization of New Zealand resulted in the introduction of British law concerning abortion. Traditionally, English common law permitted abortion if it was performed before quickening (about 16-20 weeks).

              The first British statute to govern abortion was passed in 1803 and this forbade abortion at any time during pregnancy. This prohibition was automatically imported into New Zealand in 1840. In that year New Zealand became a colony and all relevant British law was enforceable in the colony.

              The Offences Against the Person Act 1866, which was passed by both houses of the New Zealand Parliament without debate, was based on the earlier British legislation.

              Apart from some subsequent re-enactments and minor alterations, statute law has retained most of the features of the original Act.

              • bad12

                Gluckman 1971 Tracey???, Gluckman was born in 1920 so he would have gained His knowledge of pre-European Maori from???,

                Probable Tracey, right its ”probable” that you are clutching at an increasingly absurd series of ever thinning straws, yes/no???

                i will look into infanticide later, are you tho saying that ALL Maori practiced infanticide Tracey, if not, which Maori Tribe practiced infanticide…

                • Tracey

                  could you post a list of acceptable sources and researchers to save anybody wanting to debate with you some time?

                  Can i assume anyone not writing in support of your saintly notion of pre european maori is not acceptable.

                  You carry on with your belief that you are from a saibtly pure lineage where no one procured abortion, no one committed infanticide and no one tried to lose their foetus. You are entitled to do so but i dont have to be an enabler.

            • Tracey

              Have read it. Interesting to note that once medicines to abort were available they were used. Also interesting that given tapu, it is likely women, and men would have hidden any procurement and passed off tge result as miscarriage. Truly bad, i think it naive to think maori werent procuring abortin and that the means were not whispered from geberation to generation.

              ” Abortion (Whakatahe or Kuka).

              According to Maori belief, premature birth was usually caused by some infringement of the laws of tapu on the part of the mother, and for which she would be thus punished by the gods. When a woman, in former times, desired to procure abortion on herself, she would proceed to taiki the fœtus, that is, she would pollute a tapu person, as a priest, or one of her elders, by passing some cooked food over – 13 his garment, or his resting place. Or she might take a portion of cooked food to some sacred place, and there eat it. Such acts would, to the native mind, be deemed quite sufficient to cause a miscarriage. Generally speaking, when a woman noticed that she was papuni, i.e., that menstruation had stopped, and she knew that she had conceived, and, moreover, wished to procure abortion, she would probably proceed to some sacred place, as the tuahu, where priests performed various religious rites, and she would pluck some herb there growing and, applying the same to her mouth, would then cast it away. That would be quite sufficient, she has “eaten,” or polluted, a sacred place. The gods will attend to her case.

              There is a considerable amount of danger to man attached to abortion, so say the Maori people, inasmuch as the fœtus is liable to develop into a most malignant demon (atua), which afflicts man grievously in divers ways, and is much dreaded. Such a caco-dœmon is termed an atua kahu or kahukahu. It is the spirit (wairua) of the fœtus which thus developes into a mischievous and dangerous demon. The term kahu is applied to the membrane which covers the fœtus, as also is whakakahu.

              It is in this way. When a case of abortion occurs, the fœtus is taken away and buried. Now, should it so happen that a dog, or pig, finds, and resurrects, and eats the fœtus, then the spirit of the same will enter into the animal, which thus becomes an atua ngau tangata, or man-afflicting demon. Or this evil spirit may be conciliated by some person, and utilised as a war god. For an exhaustive description of such a development, see the Journal of the Polynesian Society, Vol. VI., p. 41.

              It is singular to note that the spirit of a stillborn child is, to the Maori mind, always an evil one, and a power for evil only, never for good.

              When a person is afflicted by one of these evil spirits, he hies him to the tohunga, or priest, who proceeds to exorcise the same by means of a certain rite and invocation. The afflicted person probably knows not what ails him, but, being ill, he consults the priest, who, being a seer, will soon locate the cause. He will then say:—“Your affliction is a kahu.” He will probably also know which woman produced that cause, and, on his asking her, she will admit it, and say that she buried it at a certain place, or threw it into a stream. The famous Tuhoean war god Te Rehu-o-Tainui was an atua kahu, which came from a still born child which had been cast into a stream, and was eaten by the small fish named titarakura. Hence that fish was possessed by the evil spirit, and no member of the Tuhoe tribe has – 14 since eaten of those fish, for they are tapu. The natives of this district are yet firm believers in these matters.

              However, to cure the sufferer introduced above, the priest will go in search of a plant termed keketuwai, which is used as an ara atua, or way by which an afflicting demon is made to leave the human body. Placing this object upon the body of his patient, the priest will repeat a charm, or incantation, in order to force the evil spirit to quit the body of the sufferer:—

              “Tenei to ara Haere ki o tipuna Haere ki o matua Haere ki o koroua Haere ki nga mana o o tipuna.” Etc., etc.

              This kind of charm is called a takutaku. It calls upon the demon to come forth from the sufferer’s body, and betake itself to the outer spaces, to the realm of darkness, or its original place, or to those from whom it sprang. Here is another takutaku:—

              “Haere koutou e patu nei Haere i tua Haere i waho Haere i te Pu Haere i te More Haere i te Weu E oho e nga atua whiu E oho e nga atua ta Haere i tua Haere i te pouriuri Haere i te potangotango Ko rou ora Ki te whai ao Ki te ao marama.”

              The tohunga will also proceed to the place where the fœtus was buried and there kindle a fire, over which he will repeat an incantatation in order to lay the evil spirit, and to render it harmless. He will also cook an article of food, usually a kumara, or sweet potato, at that fire. This he then proceeds to eat, and thus the evil spirit is tamaoatia, or polluted, rendered harmless, its powers to harm man are so destroyed. This rite is nowadays here termed a whakawhetia, a modern, introduced expression, and used in a very misleading sense.

              The above rite was often performed over the fœtus as soon as it was buried, in order that the evil spirit be rendered harmless before it could do any evil, otherwise it might turn on the relatives of the woman and afflict them sorely. Prevention is better than cure.

              • 15 The spirit of such a fœtus may enter an animal, or bird, or fish, or insect. Should a moth (purerehua) chance to fly over the fœtus it would be entered by the evil spirit and that moth would then possess powers inimical to man, passing dangerous to human life. If the fœtus be cast into the water, it may be devoured by a fish, which would thus become a dangerous atua. Such animal, fish, bird, or insect, thus becomes the aria, or form of incarnation of the evil spirit of the fœtus.

              In one case which came under my notice, a fœtus was buried under the perch of a captive bird, a tame kaka parrot. The evil spirit of the kahu entered the bird with the result that several people were seriously afflicted by it. Diseases of the eyes, and other troubles, were caused by that dangerous demon, a truly disreputable bird. When any person was affected by that atua, should he, or a relative, dream of seeing the bird with ruffled plumage (E whakakenakena ana), that was deemed a good omen for the sufferer, he would recover. But should the dreamer see the bird moving about, or with its feathers in a flacid, or ordinary, condition (mohimohi), that that was a bad omen for the patient.

              To destroy the evil spirit of a human fœtus, some of the leaves in which food has been placed for cooking may be used as a covering for such fœtus when buried. This will have the desired effect. There is nothing so inimical to tapu, or supernatural powers, as cooked food, or anything which has come in contact with it

              But in some cases these atua kahu were not destroyed, but were cultivated, conciliated with offerings, and developed into war gods, in order that their power might be directed against tribal enemies. Such was the origin of the atua (gods, demons) known as Te Awa-nui, Pare-houhou, Peketahi, and Te Rehu-o-Tainui, of the Tuhoe tribe.

              The terms tahe, whakatahe, mate-roto, and kuka are all applied to abortion.

              It does not appear that anything in the way of medicine was taken internally, in former times, in order to cause abortion, or to cure anything for that matter. But since the natives have observed the use made of such by white people, they have discovered (?) many cures, generally simple remedies, decoctions of herbs, etc., for most complaints, and also to procure abortion. A local native is famous for his skill in procuring abortion in this manner. Native treatment of disease formerly was essentially empirical, being based on observation and experience alone, or such afflictions were viewed as the result of witchcraft.

              • 16
              • bad12

                Lots of invasive abortions occurring there then isn’t there,

                You thunk it therefor it was or is Tracey is pretty much lightweight don’t you think,

                The obvious that appears befor you written by Best who lived among the people He wrote about was that they didn’t,

                Until that is pakeha introduced them to specific concoctions, by then i would suggest the Tikanga that ruled Maori pre-European lives was well on the way to breaking down completely…

                • bad12

                  Something else for you to consider Tracey, if you can drag yourself away from the notion of pre-European Maori killing their kids as a matter of course that is,

                  From what i have been told, and i will look later for the supporting literature, the act of sex among my lot was not instigated by the males,

                  He would have to wait until She wanted to engage, She would only engage when She felt She was ready to produce,(there’s an or goes here,which i will leave out for now),

                  That didn’t mean He missed out as my lot also practiced poly-whats-it,

                  Given that i am sure that such woman living by the rules they lived by way back then were far more in control of their bodies and their ”selves” i fail to see how there would be any great demand for abortion,

                  They all were certainly not going out on the piss on a Friday night to find a bit of ”fun”, i know more than a few among ‘my lot’ that still practice such methods of child birth…

                • Tracey

                  step away from the keyboard bad.

                  I posted your source because

                  A. I read it
                  B. It was interesting
                  C. Others might enjoy it
                  D. Unlike you i look at all sides of an argument.

                  But you just keep chucking your angry, frothing words into my mouth bad12, if you think it will make you feel better.

                  • Colonial Viper

                    It is singular to note that the spirit of a stillborn or aborted child is, to the Maori mind, always an evil one, and a power for evil only, never for good.

                    a little modification to the original sentence, which I believe is likely to hold true.

                    And why is the spirit always evil ( I read this as resentful/angry/vindictive)? Simple; because having come so close to that rarest opportunity of experiencing life as a human being in connection with heaven and earth, that chance was suddenly yanked away.

                    • bad12

                      Kerlap, Kerlap,Kerlap, a totally dishonest addition to something you have little knowledge of CV, imposing your beliefs upon the natives like a good colonizer would do,

                      Well done…

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Nah not saying it’s authoritative but I reckon it’s right on the dot.

              • It’s very difficult to get a direct link, but the LandCare Research database of Maori plant use lists several late-1800s attestations for using kareao in a dedoction to procure abortion. A 1940 source states puka could also be used.

                • weka

                  Murdoch Riley is a reasonable starting point. Most libraries have his ethnobotanical work. He talks about Māori women knowing the common Polynesian practice of external steaming to induce abortion. He uses the term ‘matter of course’. There were also wairua ways. I have talked to one Māori woman who confirmed that the knowledge of how to terminate pregnancies was amongst her people pre-contact with Europeans.

                  I wouldn’t consider Elsdon Best to be authoritative on abortion by Māori (although Riley says Best did know that abortion was practiced). The white male Europeans of the time wouldn’t have been asking the right questions, nor probably had access to the information that would have been held by Māori women. Māori women would have had their own reasons for sharing or not sharing (by the time Best was on the scence, anti-abortion Christian missionaries had been in NZ for quite some time). It’s a pretty common dynamic throughout the world where Europeans were colonising. If you want to know what women were doing at those times, talk to women and put the work of white male ethnographers in the proper context.

    • Daveosaurus 22.2

      I’m surprised any of you anti-choicers so much as dare to show your heads this month, considering the massive scandal brewing over in Tuam where, it appears, your mob were busy enslaving women and dumping dead babies in septic tanks, like a little miniature Bergen-Belsen.

      • bad12 22.2.1

        Now that is what i expect from the Pro-Lobby, a spirited debate connecting extreme events that have nothing what-so-ever to do with the debate here in New Zealand, the uglier the better right,

        So as a proponent of No change to the current Law what part are you suggesting that i played in the ugly fate of those children,

        That you can actually bring this into a discussion about abortion provokes in me cynical laughter(at you),how many baby lives have the Pro-Lobby promotions had flushed down the sinks of the abortion clinics so far,

        Damn but you lot are slipping, i should have thought you would have found at least a little space to be able to paste an accusation of misogyny in there some place…

  22. Marius 23

    hahaha ‘unlikely’

    • Te Reo Putake 23.1

      Have you ever wondered what the ‘reply’ button was for, Marius?

      • bad12 23.1.1

        Marius could be said to have found a means of conducting a running commentary…

      • Draco T Bastard 23.1.2

        He’s possibly on the mobile version that doesn’t have a reply button.

        • weka

          Yes but you can choose the desktop version of a page when commenting and get a reply button. Or quote.

        • lprent

          That was the code the I couldn’t get myself to work on today. sigh

          I went over and irritated the sewer instead.

  23. dimebag russell 24

    i never wondered and I never gave a shit either!

  24. thechangeling 25

    The Employment Relations Amendment Bill is stuffed cos the Nats don’t have the numbers! Horay!!

  25. bad12 26

    RadioNZ National News– the Maori Party will not support the current National Party employment Legislation,

    National now DO NOT have the numbers and will not proceed with the Legislation,

    Pfft, Lame-duck Government, Bring on September…

  26. miravox 27

    A comment on New Zealand forsetry/environmental practices?

    Keywi environment

    Seen on a grafitti wall alongside the Donau Kanal, Vienna.

  27. Marius 28

    although im not willing to apologize for any possible inconvenience, putake – im slightly puffy chested that you at least appear to enjoy reading my posts. that being the case i can only say that for now im not able to multitask (because im male) to the ‘reply button’ you mention as im consumed by trying to figure out what the numerals to the far right of my posts indicate.

  28. joe90 29


    Metal spikes installed outside a complex of plush London flats, apparently to stop homeless people from sleeping there, have sparked outrage.

    The 17-inch long metal studs are embedded in the floor outside a block of luxury flats on Southwark Bridge Road in central London.


  29. Colonial Viper 30

    Commercial property owners in UK now putting spikes up to stop homeless people sleeping

    Yes, homeless people are now considered vermin .


    edit gosh you guys are quick

  30. Marius 31

    i didnt say i wasnt cognizant of what the feature was there for, phillip – you double spacing pranny

    • hint..turn yr eyes slowly to the right..

      ..there you will see a button called ‘reply’..

      ..now..are you still with me here..?

      ..should you wish to reply to/rebuke ‘a double spacing pranny’ like myself..

      ..move the cursor..(that’s that little arrow that magically moves over the page..eh..)

      ..move that over that ‘reply’ button in that ‘pranny’-comment..

      ..and click on it..

      ..are you ready to try now..?

      ..(and have you always had this ‘thing’ about ‘double-spacing’..?..

      ..or is it recent..?


      ..you’re funny..!..i hope you stick around..

      ..in these troubles times..we need all the laffs we can get..eh..?

      ..you are doing good-works there..

  31. Marius 32

    see above

  32. joe90 33

    Hmm…digital gerrymandering.

    http://radioboston.wbur.org/2014/06/06/zittrain-google-election (podcast – scroll down for more)

  33. Marius 34

    look, phillip, i understand youre probably a little bit put out the lovely trace was waving her vagina at me in an introductory fashion a few days ago, but i want to assure you i have no interest in the borderline personality types. why dont you trundle off and watch ‘shortie’ or something.

    [lprent: I am failing to see any point in there. Read the policy on pointed abuse and why you must put points of possible interest to others in with any abuse you want to sling. ]

    • just fire-breathing righties for you..eh..?

      ..do you fantasise about collins ‘crushing’ you..?

      ..(i’ll leave ‘lovely trace’ to answer her/yr ‘vagina-waving’ bit/allegations..eh..?..)

      ..and you are in serious danger of lurching from ‘funny’..into ‘weird’..eh..?

  34. Draco T Bastard 35

    Computer passes Turing Test.

  35. Draco T Bastard 36

    Limits to Growth proven to be correct yet again.

    Infinite growth upon a finite planet is impossible and yet both National and Labour still call for more of it. When are we going to get a political party that accepts reality? When are we going to stop voting for political parties that promote insanity?

  36. Draco T Bastard 37

    Being a student in NZ gets you less than being unemployed – and you can’t live on the unemployment benefit.


  37. redfred 38

    Supportive comments from Brian Fallow this in the Herald regarding IMF warning on overvalued NZD and Labours policies to combat it.He also pointed out how they have taken a swipe at National head in the sand approach.

    Goes to show National have no idea in how to manage the economy, apart from making a few of their mates rich.


    Oh yeah and Reserve bank Governor… current account deficit widening, interest rates up….

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