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Open mike 09/08/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, August 9th, 2015 - 80 comments
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hiroshima poemOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

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80 comments on “Open mike 09/08/2015 ”

  1. Hanswurst 1

    Andrea Vance criticises the behaviour of the government with respect to transparency. In the standard, stuck-record narrative of most MSM commentators, she concludes that the Government have got away with dishonesty over issues like the Saudi sheep fiasco because the public has “moved on™” by the time the details come out in the wash. The media, if they were serious about such sentiments, could easily counter that. A front-page splash headlined “No evidence for PM’s $30m lawsuit claim” would do nicely. If the government got a few headlines of that ilk, they’d quickly find that they were constantly doing frantic battle with an impression of sleaze and dishonesty in a race against time before the public “moved on”, rather than sitting on their smug arses while media pundits did their work for them.

    • Charles 1.1

      “moving on”

      Probably assisted by the tendency of journalists to interview their own opinions; starting with conclusions and seeking out justifications to support those conclusions in their stories; tailoring their stories to popular fictional formats/archetypes for easy identification/absorbsion by reader; and do it all by end of trade each day. And this cycle of idiocy supported and encouraged by the ideology of various “capitalisms” of either persuasion – the Left (accumulation of social influence) or Right (accumulation of financial influence).

      A real news story stays a real story whether you write it today, tomorrow or next month. Possibly the difference between current events reporting and Literature is that reporting shouldn’t try to be (and can’t attempt to be) philosophically conclusive: It’d be an obvious conceit of the highest and most ridiculous kind. Which is probably why some people have noticed. Those opinion columns of various “Senior Journalists” are just myopic tautologies, yet so many readers seem to base their perspective around that axis.

      If newspapers are just there to create the impression of a culture remaining a static truth despite shifts in reality, and readers are happy with that because they’re horrified by the idea that people other than themselves exist, or that they exist, then papers/media are completely defunct because once a person knows they believe something, their minds can no longer keep up the charade.

    • Lanthanide 1.2

      Yip, the first sentence of that story can be “In the long-running scandal around a Saudi sheep deal, the prime minister has again failed to provide key evidence he repeatedly promised would validate all of his claims to date”.

      But that tone of reporting is reserved for Labour and Labour leaders like Cunliffe. Not Honest John.

    • Draco T Bastard 1.3

      “No evidence for PM’s $30m lawsuit claim” would do nicely.

      Actually, the headline for that would have to be:

      Evidence PM Lied

      • BLiP 1.3.1

        More Evidence PM Lied

        . . . lets be explicit

        • David H

          If we are going to be explicit here, then it should be.

          More Evidence PM Lied, again, as usual.

          There that’s fixed it .

          • tracey

            “PM comfortable with the level of lying in Saudi deal”

          • Stuart Munro

            Yeah – not newsworthy though.

            ‘PM tells the truth’ would be newsworthy.

            This piece of shit doesn’t know the meaning of the word.

      • Hanswurst 1.3.2

        Well, of course I considered that, but I was looking for a headline that would be neither actionable nor open to the “don’t pick on me” defence.

  2. Anne 2

    Disappointed with Andrew Little on Q&A this morning. Allowed interviewer (can’t remember his name) to ride rough-shod over him. Answers too laboured. That is not to say he didn’t have good points to make, but he isn’t projecting his voice so we can actually hear what he is saying.

    Winston Peters showed him how to do it later in the show.

    • whateva next? 2.1

      can’t agree with you there Anne, Parkin attempted to dominate and antagonise with ridiculous questions, but I think Andrew held firm and didn’t fall for the usual tricks of soundbite searching, which then lead to the usual tedious headlines.
      I raise you “an honest government” over the “strong, stable government” National have falsely seduced the masses with.

    • I thought parkin was fair and good – little was dismal, anxious and seemed under prepared.

      • whateva next? 2.2.1

        Parkin wasn’t interested in replies, only throwing the next question in attempt to produce a silly soundbite.
        Listen to Andrew’s answers and tell me where he was “dismal, anxious and seemed under prepared.”????? I am incredulous you have said that, are we are the same planet?

        • marty mars

          parkin gave him time at the start, then he realised where little was at, couldn’t believe his luck and went for the disrespectful talk over – all littles fault imo

          • whateva next?

            so, sort of went in for the kill, when Andrew was trying to be reasonable and honest you mean? So Andrew should have been more like Joyce, or Key and been combative? I don’t think so Sir, that is not what Labour are about.
            I chose an honest decent government over smart Alec’s anyday thanks very much for asking.

            • marty mars

              there is a middle road where he could have been confident, prepared and on top of his game – every time he fucks it up isn’t always because there was a ‘trap’ or he was ‘got’ – sometimes, like all of us, he just fucks it up. imo his stern, moral outrage pilgrim like face is his best – plenty to be outraged about too at the moment – lucky eh.

              • BM

                Little reminds me of Hank Hill from King of the Hill.

                Looks and sounds like him.

                • half crown

                  Yeah You have said that crap before Key reminds me of the fucking spivs my family had to deal with in the east end.

              • whateva next?

                ….which makes his grin so much more authentic when he realises people questioning him are just being ridiculous

            • gsays

              hi whateva,
              ‘I chose an honest decent government over smart Alec’s anyday thanks very much for asking.’

              i am kinda with you ,however..
              more people choose the “what is in it for me ?” approach, and we all end up with the smart alecs.

              i have been thinking about the approach the left should take.
              beyond appearing UNIFIED, is there a left wing crosby and textor around.

              simple short unifying messages leading to election then do the horse scaring stuff once the levers of power have been gotten hold of.

              • whateva next?

                “is there a left wing crosby and textor around.”? I wonder this all the time!!! or at least when will there be a ….?

    • Ch_ch chiquita 2.3

      I don’t know, Anne. We currently have a PM who knows how to project his voice but every time he opens his mouth only lies come out, so what good does it do to us?
      Maybe we all need to stop thinking the best person for the job is the one that can run a stand up comedy show and start listening to what they actually say and look at what they actually do.

      • Blue Horseshoe 2.3.1

        Nah we should whinge and then do nothing other than wait for the next opportunity to vote.

        That’s the Kiwi democracy we love

    • Karen 2.4

      Little desperately needs some media training.

      I would have expected by now for him to sound a lot better than he did when he won the leadership contest. IMO he sounds worse. You can barely hear him (it is worse on radio) and he seems disinterested.

      • whateva next? 2.4.1

        I do not think Labour will ever go for the “celebrity” politics, thankfully, and Andrew consistently comes over a reasonable, honest, thoughtful and immensely pragmatic. Not sure what more we can reasonably ask of him

        • Karen

          I agree with your assessment of Little’s personality and he exhiibits those characteristics when you meet him in person.

          However, most voters will never meet him in person and will assess him on his radio and TV performance, and IMO this could be greatly improved. I don’t watch TV news much, but on radio he sounds vague, diffident, and is virtually inaudible at times.

      • Ron 2.4.2

        Whats the point of Labour getting media training they always seem to use Brian Edwards who is useless. If you cannot afford a professional media training then forget it.

        • rhinocrates

          Edwards is worse than useless. He knows nothing about new media and hates it. The moment a media consultant declares that they hate a medium or talks about how people “should” behave using it, they’ve passed their retirement date. No matter how awful it might be, it exists and people use it they way they want to, not the way he wants them to. The first things a consultant has to do is observe and learn and Edwards refuses to do so.

          And look who else Labour has put in charge of communications over time: Curran and Robertson.

          I’m not going to suggest who they should use – it should be someone I’ve never heard of, someone new, bursting with energy and ideas. I’ve said it before, there’s loads of talent in the schools where they teach design and media – and precious few jobs waiting for them. There should be at least one going in Labour.

    • The Chairman 2.5

      I largely concur, Anne.

  3. millsy 3

    Andrew Little will not be PM. There are leaders and enforcers and Little seems to be more of an enforcer to me.

    • Stuart Munro 3.1

      I dunno mate – when I look at the miserable performance of the f**kwit in power I reckon absolutely anyone can be PM.

  4. ropata 4

    Keiser Report E792 ft. Prof. Steve Keen. Some great ideas to stop the boom/bust cycle instigated by bankers

  5. Murray Simmonds 5

    On “Stuff – The Press” – a review of Fiona Farrell’s new book:

    Quote from “Stuff”:
    “Came the earthquake, and everything changed. There were the 164 dead, the 100,000 damaged houses, and the 25,000 that had to be demolished. But there were now also CERA and a new bunch of central government authorities under Gerry Brownlee, which took the city over from local authorities. With them, they brought their neo-liberal philosophy. What was good for business or for private enterprise (property developers, demolition and construction firms) was good for the city. The traditional needs of residents had lower priority.
    Taking the Avon Loop neighbourhood as her example, Fiona Farrell argues that Red Zoning has often functioned as a form of land grab by developers. They wanted to change the social nature of the area by creating expensive riverside residences beyond the reach of the socio-economic group who lived in “the Loop” pre-earthquake.
    Parts of the book are white-hot expose, with Farrell showing the delaying tactics of insurance companies, whose aim was to pay out as little as possible to desperate householders in order to preserve their profits.”

    Rings pretty true, to my way of thinking!

    • weka 5.1

      thanks, that book looks a very interesting read.

    • tracey 5.2

      “showing the delaying tactics of insurance companies, whose aim was to pay out as little as possible to desperate householders in order to preserve their profits.”

      ALL insurance companies do that. They don’t make their money by meting every claim. parasites.

  6. ianmac 6

    Legal advice for the Sheep trade Saudi? Well sort of.

    From Tim Watkin writing in response to a column on Pundit by Andrew Geddis on Saudi Sheep Saga:
    “But today on The Nation Heather du Plessis Allan, who broke the story, said there is legal advice and it came from Clayton Kimpton. See her talk about this from 3:10 http://www.3news.co.nz/tvshows/thenation/panel-bernard-hickey-jacqueline-rowarth-and-heather-du-plessis-allan-2015080810#axzz3iBUEy6Ve . A quick google shows Kimpton left Kensington Swan to take up a position with MFAT based in Dubai in 2012.”

    • Gangnam Style 6.1

      HDA also said this Clayton guy was the same person who gave legal advice over the Sky CIty debacle I meant deal.

    • tracey 6.2

      I recall during the fallout from Winebox, when some big players didn’t like the advice they got in NZ about the legality of their scheme, they enlisted a Queensland Barrister who wrote what they wanted to hear and allowed them to later rely on it as having received “legal advice”.

      • whateva next? 6.2.1

        BBC Hardtalk, 2011, Key forgets himself and says openly that anyone can get a lawyer or a scientist to say whatever they want them to say….

  7. greywarshark 7

    Is that a clayton’s lawyer or a real one who has been given a notable name.

  8. Clemgeopin 8

    John Key’s birthday today. See the puff piece from Bill English and a journalist. As usual, I read the readers’ comments under the article. They were very interesting!


  9. joe90 9

    The planet isn’t going anywhere. We are! We’re goin’ away. Pack your shit, Folks, we’re goin’ away.

    George Carlin

    Historians may look to 2015 as the year when shit really started hitting the fan. Some snapshots: In just the past few months, record-setting heat waves in Pakistan and India each killed more than 1,000 people. In Washington state’s Olympic National Park, the rainforest caught fire for the first time in living memory. London reached 98 degrees Fahrenheit during the hottest July day ever recorded in the U.K.; The Guardian briefly had to pause its live blog of the heat wave because its computer servers overheated. In California, suffering from its worst drought in a millennium, a 50-acre brush fire swelled seventyfold in a matter of hours, jumping across the I-15 freeway during rush-hour traffic. Then, a few days later, the region was pounded by intense, virtually unheard-of summer rains. Puerto Rico is under its strictest water rationing in history as a monster El Niño forms in the tropical Pacific Ocean, shifting weather patterns worldwide.


    • Auskew 10.1

      Those quotes there which have been attributed to what the Pope has supposedly said cannot actually be traced to an authentic that is publicly available.

    • Blue Horseshoe 10.2

      I’d spend some more time examing the reasons why such a statement lifts your skirt if I was you

      Then assess your gullibility levels

      • Draco T Bastard 10.2.1

        Really? Why?

        I find quite a lot of truth in that statement no matter who said it. That’s the thing about truths – it really doesn’t matter who said them.

        • Blue Horseshoe

          It sure as fuck does matter, if was said by ‘gods main man on earth’

          • ropata

            Whilst Pope Francis may not have uttered those exact words, the meme is reasonably in tune with his sentiments. Here are the salient extracts of the message: http://en.radiovaticana.va/storico/2013/05/22/pope_at_mass_culture_of_encounter_is_the_foundation_of_peace/en1-694445

            “Instead,” the Pope continued, “the Lord has created us in His image and likeness, and has given us this commandment in the depths of our heart: do good and do not do evil”:

            “The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

            My summary: it is important for all people of all cultures and creeds to work together for peace and justice.

          • Draco T Bastard


            • ropata

              We pay attention because he also has the ability to declare a Crusade or an Inquisition if he feels it necessary to uphold Christendom. And we breathe a sigh of relief when he doesn’t.

  10. ianmac 11

    Draco @10. I once said online it was OK for me to be atheist and have a spiritual outlook. Some others were very scathing/hostile at that. I will have to get the Pope to have a word since Lloyd Geering has just died.

    • Macro 11.1

      I’m sure Lloyd would have agreed with you that religious belief was a not a necessary condition for spirituality. I am very saddened to hear of his death Ianmac. I worked with Lloyd on a national committee considering many public issues – he was a good man. I remember his talk at the Michael King Memorial Lecture in 2013 from which horses would not have prevented me from attending. It’s an hour long, but absolutely fascinating and anyone who hasn’t seen it, or doesn’t know his work, should take some time to view it.

      • ianmac 11.1.1

        Reporters always seem to preface his name with the myth that he was charged with um.m “blasphemy” or some such when in fact a few very Conservatives wanted him charged but it never made it to the floor. A great writer and thinker was Lloyd.

      • Tracey 11.1.2

        imo lloyd geering was a hero

  11. Nordy 12

    I hadn’t heard that Lloyd has passed away.

    Very sad – the passing of a prophetic voice in the wilderness of what passes so much today for organised religion.

    He was charged with heresy by the Presbyterian Church in the late 1960s. He was ‘acquitted’ . He was then principal of the Knox College (where Presbyterian Ministers were trained at that time).

    He subsequently left that role to head Religious Studies at Victoria University (around 1970).

    Yes, a great thinker. He was originally trained as a mathematician before taking up religious studies at Otago, which to me has always explained so much of his rigorous and principled approach to issues and questions of faith, theology, ethics and history.

  12. ianmac 13

    “He was charged with heresy by the Presbyterian Church in the late 1960s.”
    I don’t think so Nordy. A small group wanted to charge him but that never happened, let alone his being acquitted.

    • Nordy 13.1

      Hi Ianmac – it was at the 1967 General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church. Check his Wikipedia entry for some of the details.

      • greywarshark 13.1.1

        Can’t find any report of death of Sir Lloyd George Geering ONZ, GNZM, CBE (Professor)
        He is now 97.

        About the Lloyd Geering heresy. St Lukes Presbyterian in Remuera was planning to have a talk on the matter.

        11. The Geering Controversy. Thursday 27 August at 7.30pm. Join Allan Davidson to revisit the 1967 ‘heresy’ trial of Professor Lloyd Geering, its historical context, the trial itself and the impact on the church and wider society. In 1967, Allan was a first year student of Professor Geering who was principal of the Presbyterian Theological College. Yet another list at reception!

        • ianmac

          I am sure his death was reported on radio last week but like you I cannot find any record of it. Strange.

      • ianmac 13.1.2

        Gidday Nordy. it is a long time since I read about the trial so I found this. Sorry it is a bit long. From, “Lloyd Geering – God and Me” (Note no mention of “heresy”.)
        “Now, this book had to be finished by October, when the General Assembly was going to meet in order to hear charges that had been laid against me – charges of doctrinal error., Two Presbyterians – one a minister with good theological training, another a layman who had a very simplistic view of Christianity – had laid charges separately. And so on Friday, November 3rd 1967, I was called to the Bar of the House – the General Assembly turns itself into a court of law at this stage – where I heard the charges being expounded by my accusers. There was an electric air of expectancy…… More than a thousand people had packed into the church, ….. On Monday I answered the charges, addressing the Assembly for an hour and a half. After lunch came the debate. …..But before there had been very much time for any adequate discussion of the real issues, a motion was put to the House, and later carried firmly on the voices – and it said that “the Assembly judges that no doctrinal error has been established, dismisses the charges and declares the case closed”.

        • Nordy

          Yes – thanks Ianmac.

          Heresy is in effect a ‘simple’ way of describing ‘doctrinal error’. It became the common way (and still is) of referring to what occurred in 1967.

          PS – I was giving a quick summary – not a technical or precise description – of the fascinating and troubling events of that time.

  13. greywarshark 14

    Also from Radionz –
    Next Wednesday, radionz.co.nz launches the most significant Toby-based journalism project of the year: a tale of two Tobys; a force Toby reckoned with; great Toby here at last.

    We’re bringing together ground-breaking graphic artist Toby Morris and rapier-witted journalist Toby Manhire.

    Every week, they’ll combine to tackle an issue that has been making headlines, with a collection of words, images, questions and answers.

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    BeehiveBy beehive.govt.nz
    3 weeks ago