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Open mike 09/09/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 9th, 2013 - 161 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

161 comments on “Open mike 09/09/2013 ”

  1. BLiP 1

    The Whitehouse must be getting desperate. In another application of standard US grievous hypocrisy, it has resorted to emotional blackmail in an effort to manufacture consent for the unliteral bombing of a sovereign state. Meanwhile, in an unusually honest manner, the “Villa in the jungle”, Israel’s actual position on the matter is made clear by former Israeli consul general in New York, Alon Pinkas:

    . . . This is a playoff situation in which you need both teams to lose, but at least you don’t want one to win — we’ll settle for a tie. Let them both bleed, hemorrhage to death: that’s the strategic thinking here. As long as this lingers, there’s no real threat from Syria . . .

    Couldn’t have worked out better for Israel than if the Knesset had planned it all along . . . oh, hang on.

    • muzza 1.1

      That’s quite a candid admission.

      Unfortunately the average Israeli, is as much a sacrifice as the Americans, or Arab tribes have been, and are going to be.

      • Greywarbler 1.1.1

        I was reading recently about early Israel settlement idealist Jews. And the Yom Kippur war of 1973 involving attacks by Syria and Egypt. I guess, remembering that, Israelis won’t be too quick to make any move to aid them that will weaken themselves or use up their resources.

    • ghostrider888 1.2

      “We didn’t think that it would Blow up with such might…even the ghost came.

    • This country needs an effective opposition ..

    • joe90 2.2

      Tony’s a real charmer.

      “She said: ‘I had just commenced speaking when I felt a hand between my legs on my lower buttocks. I was wearing jeans. I jumped back, turned around, and saw Tony Abbott laughing about two feet away. The people in the audience began laughing and jeering’, Miss Wilson said.”


      • Paaparakauta 2.2.1


        .. that’s just what’s on the public record. In common parlance he’s known as a bit of a
        ‘rough diamond’. That’s not necessarily a bad thing. Bob Hawke had a colourful
        past and broad extra-curricular experience can be an asset for a man of the people ..
        but Abbott is leading a party created by royalist Melbourne grandee Bob Menzies,
        inhabited by people who often barely deigned to recognise a colourless Sydney suburban personality like John Howard. There was, however, no argument with success ..

        It may yet come back to haunt him. With a contracting Australian economy and the end of the China boom, it promises to be an interesting few years .. on both sides of the Tasman.

        • Murray Olsen

          The common parlance among people I know is “fucked in the head scumbag.” If he’d been born and bred in Paramatta, he would probably have spent time in prison. Instead, he was chosen by the Liberals as something special quite early on and every “indiscretion” had top rank lawyers defending the prick.

          • Greywarbler

            Murray O
            It sounds a little like John Mortimer’s relentless climber up the political ladder Leslie Titmus – Paradise Postponed and ? Have you read the books Murray? He wrote good books – had a good head for character parts.

        • Colonial Viper

          Prediction: Kiwis will be coming back home in their thousands. A Coalition gift to the Cunliffe Labour Government.

          • miravox

            Better get a few Aussies over to help with the detent… oops refugee centre building then. They know how to do it, and because we sure don’t have enough houses (and they own a fair chunk of the rentals anyway).

            They can also be reassured that if they’re need healthcare, are made redundant or need disaster relief etc that they’re not discriminated against.

  2. Sanctuary 3

    Just a final thought on the TV3 poll on Firday putting Cunliffe in front. Fair enough on the general public figures, but TV3 say

    “…– but looking at just Labour voters – Cunliffe is even stronger, sitting at 45.6 percent…”

    Now, how many Labour party members could they have actually interviewed? The poll was of 500 people. Assuming Labour has, say, 20,000 members then on average TV3 would have only interviewed 4-5 Labour party members. Which leads to another question – how do they know the people on the phone who self-identified as Labour party members actually were NZLP members? Did they poll anyone who answered who was in a union as a NZLP member because their union is an affiliate?

    I can’t see any other way around it, TV3’s poll figure for the Labour party membership is very, very fishy. I can’t help but wonder if the whole poll was just part of the TV3 campaign for Shane Jones, trumpeting dodgy figures to promote their man.

    • karol 3.1

      TV 3’s poll was done by a company that does online polling with panels of people. So presumably the panels are drawn from people registered with them, and for whom they have a lot of background information. I surmise they call on panels of people, selected for how much they represent the section of society they are researching.

    • lprent 3.2

      I believe that they we looking at self-identified Labour supporters, ie who vote Labour in the general elections. Which as you say probably doesn’t reflect those members and hurriedly reactivated past members who will be voting in this election.

      • Tigger 3.2.1

        I’ve been watching these polls and wondering how they identify Labour Party members. It has to be self identified (Labour wouldn’t hand out their list) unless Labour is polling from eligible members?

        Voted last week anyway so polls mean shit to me.

  3. Saarbo 4

    Audrey Young – from the mornings NZ Herald

    “Caucus votes are worth more than other votes cast, with 34 MPs making up 40 per cent of the vote; the support of 17 MPs would give Mr Robertson almost 30 per cent of the total allowable vote.”

    How did she get 30%, I make it 17 over 34 * 40% = 20%

    Am I doing something wrong?

    • lprent 4.1

      Audrey is better at the qualitative than the quantitative. Without even bothering to startup a calculator you are correct

    • karol 4.2

      She’s massaging the numbers a bit. Young is estimating Robertson has the support of more than 17 MPs. She says:

      Despite the popular support for Mr Cunliffe, Mr Robertson still has by far the greatest support in caucus, thought to be at least 17 votes out of 34; with 10 for Mr Cunliffe and five for Mr Jones.

      Caucus votes are worth more than other votes cast, with 34 MPs making up 40 per cent of the vote; the support of 17 MPs would give Mr Robertson almost 30 per cent of the total allowable vote.

      • mickysavage 4.2.1

        Her comment that the support of 17 MPs would give Mr Robertson almost 30 per cent of the total allowable vote is clearly wrong. It only gives him 20% of the vote and with distribution of preferences the caucus vote could be all tied up.

      • LynWiper 4.2.2

        Whatever the maths, Caucus… ignore your Labour voters at your peril.

        • Enough is Enough

          What do you mean at your peril?

          What peril will there be if Caucus votes differently to the Party?

  4. felix 5

    Always knew there was something wrong with that little cryptofascist.


    • Tracey 5.1

      “The board said matters of religion were also outside the ERA’s jurisdiction. ” IF that turns out to be true then taxpayer funding should also be outside the jurisdiction of Tamaki College. Was having this discussion with someone yesterday. We both agreed that a school (reluctantly) can be free to be religious based but not a single dollar of taxpayer money should be put into that school. If people want an invisible friend to tell them how to live that is their prerogative but myself and selected taxpayers have no obligation to pay for it.

      • KJT 5.1.1

        I find it particularly annoying when you see a Teaching job add, for a State funded school, FFS, which says, “must support the special character of the school”. I.E. Believe in implausable beings in the sky.

        • Tracey

          Yup. Any “argument” which is deemed by the arguer to be “won” because I can’t prove their invisible friend DOESNT exist actually has no place in education and I am worried that such thinkers are in charge of teaching our children.

    • David H 5.2

      This goes to this now.
      A teacher claims he was forced to quit his job at Auckland’s Tamaki College because he was an atheist.

      Dont know what happened.

      • felix 5.2.1

        They’ve massively altered the story to edit out all mention of Ngaro punching the teacher in the back of the head. Same for the Herald article.

        I guess his lawyers have been busy this morning.

    • felix 5.3

      Original text of the article:

      National Party MP Alfred Ngaro allegedly punched an atheist teacher at his son’s school for not bowing his head during a prayer.

      Ngaro, a list MP and former chairman of the Tamaki College Board of Trustees, was last week dragged into the Employment Relations Authority dispute between Tamaki College and former art teacher Christopher Scott Roy.

      Roy claims he was constructively dismissed because he is an atheist and Tamaki College saw Christianity as “a core responsibility to which he was indifferent”.

      Roy added a new allegation to his employment claim, telling ERA member Tania Tetitaha that in 2009 he was assaulted by Ngaro as he was leaving a First XV rugby after-match function at Kings College.

      . . . Kings College officials had asked if anyone objected to a prayer or karakia being said before they ate.

      Roy said he did not take part due to his atheism but rather looked around the room as everyone else bowed their head.

      Ngaro, whose son was in the Tamaki First XV, came up to him and got “right in my face” after the prayer, Roy told the ERA hearing, eyeballing him just a few centimetres from his face.

      Representatives from Kings College saw the behaviour and asked after his well-being, and if he wanted security guards present, Roy said. As he went to leave he was confronted outside by Ngaro, who lashed out at him, punching him on the back of his head.

      One of the then-Tamaki First XV members, Unaloto Pita, confirmed to the Sunday Star-Times that a scuffle had taken place involving Roy as he left the Kings College function. Pita said he did not see who assaulted the teacher.

      Ngaro, appearing in person at the ERA hearing, categorically denied the assault.

      Roy said not going to the police was “the worst mistake of my life” but at the time he thought he would jeopardise any future employment opportunities.

      • Tracey 5.3.1

        IF true, the PM will sack him immediately.

        pause for laughter

        he has an interesting background. Until your article I hadn’t heard of him

        “Ngaro is of Cook Islands descent.[1] Ngaro’s father Daniel Ngaro from Aitutaki[2] and Pukapuka he was a union delegate, and the family has a long tradition of voting for the Labour Party.[1] His mother, Toko Kirianu, is from Mangaia.[2]

        Ngaro trained as an electrician and was self-employed in the trade for five years.[3] As per his grandmother’s wish,[2] he then completed a theology degree and became a pastor at the Tamaki Community Church.[4] He later won a Sir Peter Blake Emerging Leader Award for his work on the Tamaki Transformation Project.[5]

        Ngaro served as the Auckland District Health Board’s Pacific committee chairman and as the Tamaki College board of trustees chairman.[1] He is a member of various advisory committees for the Ministry of Social Development

        Select Committees

        Social Services
        Justice & Electoral”

        His maiden speech

      • Paul 5.3.2

        I thought Tamaki was a state school and therefore that no teacher or student had to be forced to kowtow to religious beliefs.

    • miravox 5.4

      National MP possibly rabid and drooling?

      Whose the wry humourist at stuff then?

  5. muzza 6


    There has been a 60 per cent increase in the amount of ocean covered with ice compared to this time last year, they equivalent of almost a million square miles.

    In a rebound from 2012’s record low an unbroken ice sheet more than half the size of Europe already stretches from the Canadian islands to Russia’s northern shores, days before the annual re-freeze is even set to begin.

    This sounds like old news, I seem to recall it was predicted there would be an increase in cooling , some time back.

    IPCC better get those wheels spinning to come up with something in its reports which stacks up, regarding these anomalies .

    • lprent 6.1

      Ice surface areas is a completely daft measurement suitable for the simple and jonolists. A moments thought would tell you that there is a massive difference in cooling potential between thick sea ice and a thin coverage, most notably in how much energy is required to melt it. Anyone who has had to deice an old fridge is well aware of that. The ice cover referred to in the article is a very thin surface freeze liable to be broken up (and melted) in the next storm.

      However idiots do rather like surface area as a measurement presumably because it is simple enough for them to grasp.. And I guess that defines you muzza.

      The rest of the article is more interesting even though it highlights just a handful of climatologists (ie Curry) and refers to all of the others as being the IPCC – the sign of a jonolist’s “balance”.

      Climate is multi-cyclic and there is an expectation of a leveling off and even a fall in average global temperatures because of the pacific oscillations and a number of other local climatic patterns. The nett effect is that more energy has been pushed into the oceans for later release than would happen on average. It makes absolutely no difference to the overall heat balances over a century – it is just a decadal shift. Furthermore the expectation was in the 2000’s that we’d see some falls in average work temperatures, but in fact we have seen peaks above 1997 several times.

      That was despite the much higher than expected loss of cooling ice masses in the Arctic ice sheet, Greenland’s ice sheet, and in the West Antarctic. There were also increases in ice volumes in East Antarctica that are hard to explain unless more water vapour is getting in past the jetstream (paradoxically snowfall is a indicator of increased temperatures if you’re at the coldest and therefore driest place in the world).

      Effectively heat going into melting ice masses keeps overall world temperatures down for a time, but gets less and less effective as those ice masses disappear. But if you’re focused on a single value of temperature over a decade or two to define changes in climate, then you’d have to be a fool…

    • Pasupial 6.2

      “In a rebound from 2012′s record low”… “a 60 per cent increase in the amount of ocean covered with ice compared to this time last year”.

      Surface area /= ice volume; the thickness of the ice-sheet will be minimal thus far – we’ll have to wait until later in the season to see how that results.

    • Draco T Bastard 6.3

      A Real Hole Near The Pole

      Sea ice extent for August 2013 averaged 6.09 million square kilometers (2.35 million square miles). This was 1.03 million square kilometers (398,000 square miles) below the 1981 to 2010 average for August, but well above the level recorded last year, which was the lowest September extent in the satellite record. Ice extent this August was similar to the years 2008 to 2010. These contrasts in ice extent from one year to the next highlight the year-to-year variability attending the overall, long-term decline in sea ice extent.

      So much more accurate when you get it from the scientists rather than newspapers with an ideological bent.

  6. Sanctuary 7

    Wow, Emirates Team New Zealand absolutely smoked Oracle in race 3 of the America’s Cup just now. Isn’t it great to see New Zealanders being recognised as fearless builders of advanced, world beating technology rather than constantly patronised Hobbits?

    And I must say I am starting to look forward to all the parties that’ll be happening in Auckland’s downtown.

    • Tracey 7.1

      Yup, it looks like unless our boat breaks Oracle are fucked.

      Of course Barker will now have to get knighted even though it appears the designers are the ones who have made this for us by making a faster boat.

      • Bearded Git 7.1.1

        Oracle just won

        • Tracey

          yup, see comment above, they are sailing better than us but we have the faster boat. In 3 of the 4 races so far we made BIG sailing blunders… only one of them resulted in a loss.

          • ianmac

            The predicted huge response from the public and a financial bonanza, has been a huge fizzer. So if NZ should win will it be a poisoned chalice for Auckland?

            • KJT

              If you look at our high end boat building industry the bonanza is happening. One of nationals few good investments.

            • Tracey

              sporting public loves a winner. So if the team wins the public will be temporarily happy, imo.

              given the lead of TNZ seems to be the result of the designers, then the spin-off tot he boat building industry should continue provided the designers are based in NZ.

              I also understand if TNZ wins they might move to the 45s and dump the 75s. The other day I saw the youth Amercias cup or something in the 45s and there were far more countries and log jams at the marks. Looked exciting.

              • KJT

                Always thought it should be in 45’s.

                The 40′ multihull racing in Europe, with their tight courses and thrills and spills, is awesome.

                Even as a sailing enthusiast I have to admit that watching 12 metres was like watching grass grow.

                I just hope they do not revert to monohulls.

  7. bad12 8

    Raising the minimum wage leads to more unemployment???, only if your economic education stopped at 101,

    Yet another in the series of links which whips those with an infants education into silence over their false claims on the effects of raising the minimum wage…


  8. Rogue Trooper 9

    for Bill owed sails,

    Why should I let the toad work
    Squat on my life?
    Can’t I use my wit as a pitchfork
    And drive the brute off?

    Six days of the week it soils
    With it’s sickening poison-
    Just for paying a few bills!
    That’s out of proportion.

    Lots of folk live on their wits:
    Lecturers, lispers,
    Losels, loblolly-men, louts-
    They don’t end as paupers;

    Lots of folk live up lanes
    With fires in a bucket,
    Eat windfalls and tinned sardines-
    They seem to like it.

    Their nippers have got bare feet,
    Their unspeakable wives
    Are skinny as whippets- and yet
    No one actually starves .

    Ah, were I courageous enough
    To shout Stuff your pension !
    But I know, all too well, that’s the stuff
    That dreams are made on:

    For something sufficiently toad-like
    Squats in me, too;
    Its hunkers are heavy as hard luck,
    And cold as snow,

    And will never allow me to blarney
    My way to getting
    The fame and the girl and the money
    All at one sitting.

    I don’t say, one bodies the other
    One’s spiritual truth;
    But I do say it’s hard to lose either,
    When you have both.

    just Larkin’ about. 🙂

  9. ianmac 10

    Plan B for Syria:
    5 or 6 prime targets identified. (A palace, a communication centre or two, barracks etc)
    A date set.
    The general area surrounding the targets swamped with leaflets/broadcasts warning civilians to leave the areas before target date.
    Missiles fired as warned on date given.
    Damage done with minimal collateral damage.
    How about that as my plan?

    • Tracey 10.1

      Anyone heard anything from Mrs Assad recently?

    • David H 10.2

      But they won’t they’ll prob go for the usual list of targets, which if the Syrians have any common sense are now just empty buildings.

      • Pascal's bookie 10.2.1

        From what’s being said, the list is growing. Once you decide to hit, you start looking for ways to get more bang for your buck. More birds to kill with the stone, as it were.

        the talk now about changing the outcome of the war, in favour of moderate elements of the FSA suggests that Assad’s assets won’t be the only thing targeted. The FSA can’t compete with the extremist groups.

        It’s looking more and more like Lebanon in the eighties, with w whole bunch of wars being faught in the sme place and between the same people.

        eg, Iran + Hezb +Assad + US + FSA vs AQ.

        Iran + Assad + Hezb vs FSA + AQ +US

        AQ + Hezb + Assad Vs FSA + US

        In Lebanon the different fights wern’t just in theory. Groups actively killing each other in one of the wars, were trading weapons and intelligence and co-operating on the battlefield in another.

          • Greywarbler

            With a sprinkling of The Shadow and dim lights for atmosphere indicating the forces of evil and smiling assassins with madness and megalomania in their eyes.

        • Greywarbler

          What’s in it for the USA apart from more armament sales to the government? Are they working their way along the Middle East? Is it a practice place to trial their latest weaponry? Is the Defence budget too big to fall over? Is it a proxy war for Israel, and what have Israel done for them as a quid pro quo? Where are the Saudis in this? Bush was supposed to be close to some Saudis who were close to Al Queda.

          Now that is confusing. Don’t anybody try to provide me a rational answer, in fact anything at all. I don’t want to know acshually. It’s an idle thought and I already have my worrying time all allocated. Some mathematician could provide some interesting stats on the permutations of all the countries in the world who are involved in war at some level at any one time.

  10. Here is a link to a page from the Daily Mail. No it is no longer on the official site (funny that) but on the waybackwhen site. (awesome archive of stuff we wouldn’t otherwise have access too anymore) the page is an article published on 29th of January 2013 and tells of a leaked email and gives us a view into the secret machinations leading up to the pending attack on Syria and whattayaknow… they were gagging for a false flag chemical attack on Syrian civilians to force an invasion into Syria!

    No wonder that page has been removed from the official DM site and replaced with the most hideous war mongering propaganda.

    But conspiring? No Sir never! Not our modern enlightened governments in our “really” Democratic countries! They would never do that to us!

    • Te Reo Putake 11.1

      Yeah, nah. An unproven email from people who may or may not exist sarcastically referring to Washington’s supposed support for a single CW bombing is hardly evidence of anything. Ev.

      I think the clues that this reference is bullshit can be found in the names ‘Daily Mail’ and ‘Infowars’.

      • travellerev 11.1.1

        Infowars seems to bother you doesn’t it. You keep mentioning it in relation to links while I probably linked to well backed up and linked articles from that site about maybe 5 times over the last 8 years. Or do you mention INFOWARS in the hope to smear whatever I post?

        • Te Reo Putake

          The quote that forms the basis for the Mail article comes from Infowars. Do you not read your own links before posting them?

          • travellerev

            And a well linked to other sources article it was too so no problem there for me but again it is a problem for you. Ok, maybe 6 times in the last 8 years? Dipshit.

            • Te Reo Putake

              Ha! I think you and I both know who the didpshit is here, Ev. Next time read the link before posting. Or, better, yet, save the right wing fantasies for your own site.

              • Funny how you do that right wing fantasy thing again. Just smearing and trolling. I think many would actually classify me as left wing as my preference for the MANA party is no secret. Not that it matters to me. I think that left and right are a paradigm pushed on us to keep us separated from each other and to stop us from fighting the 0.01% owning everything and you are a dumbass for complying. Have a nice day dipshit! 😈

                • Te Reo Putake

                  Sorry, pal, having no class understanding is not a defence. You are right wing. You run a right wing website. You publish right wing comments here and get abusive when the narrow perspective you push gets highlighted. Like it or not, using rightwing sites such as the Daily Mail and Infowars to back your fantasies does not make you left wing. Funny that. Particularly so when you don’t even appear to have read the link you posted. Here’s a clue for ya; the headlines don’t always tell the full story.

                  • Pal assumes a gender I am not.

                    For those of you not familiar with TRP smearing and trolling techniques here is what I believe in and stand for:

                    I believe in a just society where there is far more equality than there is now. I believe in workers rights and the need to protect them. I believe in fair taxes and that includes the rich. I believe that the weak and poor should be protected and that in a civilized country there should be free healthcare and a social support system. I believe in open and accountable government. I believe in the protection of our ecosystems and the protection of them. I believe in equality and marriage rights for all regardless of their gender. I believe that greed is serious disease and that people suffering from the obsessive need to have more than they could possibly need should be in hospitals for the criminally insane and expect that some day they will be.

                    In my ideal world there would be no war, no corruption and peace based on respect, love and compassion.

                    So tell me again why I am right wing? And to show I understand this should come from both sides I’ll refrain from calling you a dipshit again, how’s that?

                    • Purgatory? Must have been the T=words I used.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Cheers about the restraint, Ev. I hope you stick to it.

                      My estimation of your politics is based entirely on what you write. That’s the only way I know you. The list above is all very well, but it’s not backed up by what you do online, which primarily is run a rightwing blog narrowly focussed on absurd conspiracy theories. You are a climate change denier, a supporter of the racist theory that Barack Obama is not an American and a fevered believer that 9/11 was an inside job. These last 3 are all righty obsessions and they define your digital presence.

                      When your blog starts regularly featuring articles about workers’ rights, healthcare etc., I might reassess my view of you. But for the moment your output is overwhelmingly right wing. And, btw, if you deny the need for class analysis (your right/left paradigm), then why are you upset as being identified as right wing anyway?

                    • I am not. It says more about you and your need to classify me than about me. Absurd is the fact that you deny the science which tells us that buildings do not collapse in freefall speed into dust clouds after an office fire.

                      But other than that. What do you find so right wing about my writings?

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Ok, I’ll bite. Can you cite any comment of mine that denies the science? I’m picking not, because it’s the science that proves 9/11 deniers wrong. That and the intervening 12 years without any actual evidence of a gummint/NWO/illuminati conspiracy 😉

                    • So not a single one of my writings then? And I don’t think you ever gave good solid evidence to the contrary. You are a troll who smears and throws mud in the hopes that something will stick. You are what I would call a sad case

  11. Greywarbler 12

    When NZ Labour get in they should speak to the Oz government in their regular confabs and stress that we want to be treated fairly when we are in Oz. Then they should ask when they will be changing those laws that discriminate against us, their friends and allies. And if they won’t do anything by a certain time, then we should withdraw social assistance for Oz people here.

    Why should we be paying for the health treatment of Oz managers and their families, who come here to utilise our ‘sub-human’ resources (less developed beings than those in Oz). Education, would no doubt be a choice of free or private (which includes government funding) up to tertiary, and then they can study in Oz or if in NZ pay on the same basis that we do in Oz. They won’t even let NZ students have student transport travel concessions I understand. Also there are people that have NZ family (Mr Abbott!) who may be able to utilise health treatment if they can organise themselves around our regulations. I have heard of that being considered.

    We can’t afford to carry these shiralees. (Oz Swag, burden, load. Etymology: From one of the Australian Aboriginal languages).
    And we don’t want the same rotten treatment that Oz has meted out to their Aborigines in the past. They have made some attempt to respect, repair past wrongs and honour them lately. But then having all that racism and negativism loose and available, they have combined it, focussed it and fired it at us.

    • Watching 12.1

      Do you really think the OZ Labor or Liberal government gives a f… about this especially as this is a significant budget item.

      I am not supporting what the OZ labor and Liberal government are doing but I do understand the what is happening.

      Sometime down the track the OZ government will say this is unfair (maybe via a court decision) and the solution will be Kiwis will be entitled to the same benefits and right as say a Brit moving to OZ by something along these lines:

      Kiwi’s will need a work visa (i.e meet OZ immigration selection policy) if they want to stay beyond say 2 years. To uphold previous agreement with NZ kiwis will be allowed open travel to OZ BUT the open work visa will now have a time frame. It allows OZ to pick off the qualified and those with money in their pocket (especially Kiwis returning down under).

      • Greywarbler 12.1.1

        Yeah Watching wasn’t that what we had. You had to be in Oz for a while before you qualified, you had to be working. And do I think that Oz gives it time of day? Well I already commented on the possibility of them not doing so, as they apparently have when the matter has been raised with them. Or that’s what we are told, I haven’t got any spy info on that, no tapes over the teacups, no gps over the glasses, no leaks from the lagers. So who knows what has been said by our pollies apart from sqawk or sfa.

        The point is that it is easy for the Aussies to find excuses for not reversing this discriminatory abuse of our political ally relationship. And for our own respect, and savings on expenditure on the undeserving, we should follow suit. And put the money instead into an insurance scheme that NZs there and/or family can pay into which will provide the wherewithal to get them back here when the dream of better opportunities crashes. The stories of destitution are building up.

        • Tim

          In Australians’ eyes, since Howard – we’ve become lesser beings than bloody Tasmanians! (unless of course we achieve some sort of fame and can be claimed as an Okker).

          I remember as a kid growing up in Victoria, thinking that NZ was another state until I was put right. A journey to Sydney by road meant a mandatory stop at the border where one’s boot was searched for fruit and any contraband. Kiwis owned half of Bondi (now by South Africans, who are treated somewhat better than the Kiwis in the ‘ANZAC brotherhood’). The Kiwi dollar was on a par or worth more, and my primary school contemporaries were somewhat jealous.
          (That was because the only “bloody Abbos” they encountered were those living rough in the park, or during school holidays when parents would send their kids to the big smoke for us t babysit, and they had to deal daily with greesers and bloody spiks daily)

          Nah – fuk ’em. Let em rot in their bigotry and mine themselves to death. Thank God I no longer have an Australian passport (not that one ever required a passport to travel between Australia and NZ).

    • Tim 12.2

      Agreed – and until they do, they should drop the NZ in “ANZAC”. Supposedly something that represents a fair suck of the save for Kiwi and Okker brothers and sisters alike. Instead, all it represents is a morning one day a year to acknowledge hard times during war, a statue or two, and a way of forgetting that only 40 or so years ago – the tables were turned and opposite (with NZ being a more attractive prospect)

    • Murray Olsen 12.3

      It’s not all bad. There are possibly more Kiwi PhD students in Australia on Australian scholarships than there are in Aotearoa on Kiwi scholarships. Any Kiwi gets free hospital care in Oz, on the same basis that Aussies get it in Aotearoa. Although I couldn’t access any benefits if I had to stop working, I get free medical care under Medicare. This is probably better than what I’d get back home. Since I’ve got liver cancer and am now waiting for a transplant, this means something significant to me.

      There is discrimination against us, but not really in the health area. Benefits, yeah, and lack of access to student loans, plus we can’t go and help them fight for Amerika unless Key sends us, but I think you’ve got some of the details a bit wrong, GW. Anyway, I agree that it stinks that we pay tax and don’t receive all the things paid for by that tax.

  12. Tracey 13

    I am trying to find a speaker for my students on the Privacy Act. Specifically I am trying to find someone who can talk to them about why “nothing to fear so nothing to hide” is NOT a good reason to breach privacy?

    Anyone have any ideas and contact details of
    potential speakers. My students are first and foremost sport students, not law students.

    I am in Auckland

    • Murray Olsen 13.1

      Maybe try the Rev. Mua Strickson-Pua, Tracey. He can do a good rendering of Pastor Niemoller.

  13. Here is a link to a trailer for a 5 hour (English) documentary released by Luogocomune.net named The new Pearl Harbor. The makers of this film are keen for it to be shared far and wide and don’t hold on to copyrights so I’m happy to oblige.

    • leftriteleft 14.1

      At least I’m not the only one. Your’e on to it.
      Cheers for bringing that to my attention.
      But wait, there’s more.
      Don’t turn off your TV. Keep watching.
      WW3 in real time.

  14. Pacific leaders’ meeting exposes hypocrisy of US rhetoric about Syria and WMDs:

  15. I don’t know if many of you actually watch Russia Today but yesterday a 12 minutes segment aired world wide actually alleges that 9/11 was indeed a false flag event.

  16. Ennui 17

    An answer for CV. who asked me You say that “printing” money (in reality, electronically crediting it to a Treasury account) will cause the debt loading to go up. Why?

    The reason CV this creates debt is because credit gets spent by real people for real goods and real services.

    Credit does not exist in a vacuum, if it is generated to pay for existing interest on debt made possible by prior credit creation somewhere somebody has a claim against it. Credit is either for expenditure for something real, or more latterly something to enable debts to be propped up whilst current expenditure continues.

    Its about that point when things get really strange….logically if you print dollars the total available against goods and services in exchange should by rights diminish the value of the dollar (inflation) but as we know recessions are deflationary….I could explain but Illargi at theautomaticearth.com does better.

    • Colonial Viper 17.1

      Firstly the issuance of money can be done debt free and it is not the same as extending, or creating credit.

      If the government prints 100 x $100 notes, it has created $10,000 in money, with no associated creation of debt.

      That $10,000 in cash can then be used to destroy $10,000 worth of existing debt. Interestingly, the physical cash still exists at the end of this process, and can continue to circulate in the economy.

      .logically if you print dollars the total available against goods and services in exchange should by rights diminish the value of the dollar (inflation) but as we know recessions are deflationary

      A high level of monetary inflation is extraordinarily hard to achieve. It usually requires some or all of the following:

      – Massive war.
      – Currency collapse.
      – Massive destruction of infrastructure and productive capavity.
      – Failure of government tax and tax enforcement systems.

      • Ennui 17.1.1

        The bit you have missed is that money (once created) gets spent….whether you classify it as a debt or a credit is debatable. The goods it is spent on must be paid for somewhere some how with good / services / work etc….are you proposing to pay for everything with thin air?

        • McFlock

          He also doesn’t get that the money created increases the supply of money and therefore lowers its speculative value. So it will work when used with a deft touch, but increasing use exponentially increases the probability of a currency collapse.

          Currently the government/RB simply use interest rates as a method of adjusting the money supply, but the shortcoming there is that it doesn’t really circulate the new money outside of the banking sector.

          • Colonial Viper

            but increasing use exponentially increases the probability of a currency collapse.

            Reference please. Relating to any one of the major central banks openly acknowledged to be printing money in the last few years eg. BoJ, BoE, Fed, ECB etc. will be fine.

          • Colonial Viper

            the shortcoming there is that it doesn’t really circulate the new money outside of the banking sector.

            That’s why you have Government spend the money into circulation.

            • McFlock

              My point is not that it shouldn’t be done, just that it’s not a consequence-free blank cheque for all our economic and inequality ills. It requires more skill and subtlety than your anti-intellectualism is capable of.

          • Draco T Bastard

            He also doesn’t get that the money created increases the supply of money and therefore lowers its speculative value.

            Which happens every day/year as the private banks print huge amounts of money. Of course, most of that just goes back to the bankster sector making them richer and neither causing the currency collapse or inflation.

            To be more precise, what you see is inflation in mortgages and share prices – areas where a few people (the rich) get access to the tools of high finance for speculative gambling but this is seen as a Good Thing.

            Currently the government/RB simply use interest rates as a method of adjusting the money supply,

            Which doesn’t work because the private banks then add extra interest on top of that. The real effect is that the private banks are incentivised to massively over produce money and they do so with little or no constraint.

            • McFlock

              Which doesn’t work because the private banks then add extra interest on top of that. The real effect is that the private banks are incentivised to massively over produce money and they do so with little or no constraint.

              Doesn’t that contradict itself? If interest rates provide an incentive one way or another to banks to overproduce $$$, then they do affect the money supply, if indirectly.

        • Colonial Viper

          The goods it is spent on must be paid for somewhere some how with good / services / work etc….are you proposing to pay for everything with thin air?

          That is exactly how it is done now, apart from a small % of transactions which occur with physical cash.

          I’m not stating anything theoretical, just what is happening now, every day.

  17. just getting back to the really serious stuff for a mo’…

    ..this is really something everyone should hear..

    ..it’s a singer called little willie john..(unsure if that is a hookers’ in-joke/typecast..or what..)..

    ..and he is doing the standard ‘fever’ like you have never heard it done before..

    ..i just found it..and it has jumped to the top of my shake-people-by-the-shoulders-and-say:’you must listen to this!’-music-list..

    ..and it is so good i am putting out there with a money back guarantee..

    ..and i am just trying to un-peel myself from the ceiling – after listening to it twice in a row..

    ..(i think i need a cup of tea..and a you-know-what..)

    ..and i mean it when i say..’enjoy,..!’

    phillip ure..

    • Rogue Trooper 18.1

      it aint the size, it’s what you do with IT

      “People and their visions, you’ll see them everywhere
      Atomic people, they’ll all move away
      It’s a mass Exodus day, today; Non Stop Sex (or, “What Lesbians think about penises”).

    • Ron 18.2

      Nah There is only one version of Fever Just Miss Peggy Lee with drums and bass.
      Absolutely amazing singer

      • phillip ure 18.2.1

        yes..of course ron..you can’t go past peggy lee doing it..

        ..but (good as it is) we have all heard that multiple times..

        ..didn’t this one have the shock/delight of the new..?..

        ..for you..?

        ..i mean..hasn’t he got the most fucken amazing voice..?..

        ..and his timing..?

        ..and the minimalism/tightness of the backing/production..?


        ..phillip ure..

    • Rogue Trooper 19.1

      saw Kerry on the newz off drumming up more Tin Soldiers in Britain to jump into the fire.

    • joe90 19.2


      This site translates the key remarks this way: “The Syrian people have suffered much during the past two years. More than 100,000 were killed and seven to eight million have become displaced. Prisons are overflowing with people and they have turned stadiums into prisons. On the one hand the people have suffered a chemical attack by their own government. On the other, they have to await for US bombs today”


    • lprent 21.1

      I already dealt with the crock of crap the other day. But really, linking to *the* home of really stupid jonolists (now that the News of the world is dead)..

      Open mike 09/09/2013

      Basically in classic Telegraph style, it adopts an attitude that thin ice extent similar to the average for the last decade (apart from the last two years) is astonishing and essentially repudiates a decades long thinning of the ice volume in in Arctic.. It poses a single person Curry as being of equal weight as the whole IPCC.

      Basically written by a scientifically illiterate gormless fool, and now linked to by another one…

  18. felix 22

    So did Grant Robertson ever bother to turn up and respond to any of the many questions his post triggered?

    Nah, didn’t think so. He must have one of those one-way internets.

    • Olwyn 22.1

      He did not answer questions individually, but he did answer several in one go:

      Grant Robertson

    • Greywarbler 22.2


      Grant Robertson

      He had to fight his way through a lot from QoT duelling with a Ramsay and others at the beginning. Is that then trielling or quatelling or quarelling? Abortion etc. Very important but I wish that discussion about the Constitution could arouse as much heat, which could then be piped to my house and save a day’s electricity.

      There were also some very long and detailed ones. It’s asking a bit much of these pollies rushing around NZ and trying to remember where and who they are each morning to pick out too many queries.

      • felix 22.2.1

        Yeah it’s probably impossible. I wonder how Cunliffe managed it?

        Not that blogs matter anyway, of course…

        • Colonial Viper

          I hope your curtains are pulled tight.

          • felix

            Why’s that CV?

            • Colonial Viper

              Must conform to the stereotype…

              Ah, the bloggers. Shearer wants to dismiss it as background noise, saying that that is all it is worthy of.

              “The influence of people sitting anonymously in front of computer screens behind darkened curtains is not something I think we should be taking as seriously as we do.”

              He characterises it as “certainly a concerted effort to attack right before a Labour Party conference”.

  19. Rogue Trooper 23

    Here is Bryce Edwards on the media circus around this ‘primary’ and Jones etc. The Standard gets a link.

  20. Rogue Trooper 24

    “Brighter Future”?
    “nearly 2/3, that’s Two Thirds , 66% (or thereabouts) of young New Zealanders showing signs of depressed mood”.

    Was discussing the national well-being later yesterday with a manager of a Youth Health centre; like Alice, the funders are ‘going the wrong way’. According to her, “they (Ministry, DHB’s) are not allowing them to do what needs to be done”: Integrated case-management.

    • miravox 24.1

      Then the pollies wonder why kids self medicate.

      It’s not just integrated case management though – it’s the constrained life we’re presenting to them, imo.

  21. Rogue Trooper 25

    and Manufacturing dips in June 1/4 (Drought)

  22. ghostrider888 26

    Said , Assad to Charlie Rose ( Ivan to G.I Joe); “there is no evidence, and if there is, the US administration should show it” (para.)

    “Anything but sleep you rogue
    glow’ring at the moon…
    skirlin’ like a kenna-what…
    waukenin’ sleepin’ folk

    Wearit is the mither that has a stoorie wean”.

  23. newsense 27


    Would be interesting to compare Jones with Nanaia in a poll of Maori voters.

  24. geoff 28

    Well done Clare Curran, you’ve cemented your title as Captain Stupid.

  25. Greywarbler 30

    I dislike Greg O’Connor. He is supposed to represent the Police trade union and has always seemed quite right wing and an apologist for all their new useful tools for hitting shooting people etc. But when the police do need some advocacy as now, he is all uncertain and equivocal.

    It’s a yes for police to work in pairs especially when working from a car. It’s no time for police to be macho, or spout that crap you hear too often, ‘If the crims did what they were supposed to do, it (whatever) wouldn’t be needed’. That’s the very reason we have police.

    The pollies have to either allow for this in the budget or stop this mass netting of the thousands of the public with road blocks and breath testing and looking into police records hoping to get 100 unpaid fines and people over the alcohol limit. And then there’s the causing damage and injury chasing the excitable ones to prevent them causing damage and injury.

    Stop this (expensive) madness, this setting of unreasonable targets by pollies many of whom are themselves not meeting the expectations of the public because of their incompetency. It’s dumbarse right wing economics. The sort that wanted to penalise a funeral director in the 1980’s I think, for not calculating his likely future earnings right so he could pay tax in advance of such earnings. Which of course were mostly gathered from the estates of people who had just died. Which can only be guessed at in advance, unless you are the Syrian government.

    • felix 30.1

      Anyone who doesn’t suspect that O’Connor is a paid mouthpiece for the weapons industry first and a union rep second is naive in the extreme.

      I’ll include most of the media in that too, as they usually introduce him as the “Police Commissioner”. He never corrects them btw.

  26. vto 31

    So has anyone seen the evidence the US says it has that the Syrian Government chemicaled their people?

    Has John Kerry done anything to provide that evidence to an open and transparent third party for verification by that party and the public?

    Has John Kerry said what the evidence is?

    Has the USA said anything which is not hyperbole?

    Where is the evidence?

    What is the evidence?

    Is it the same as that for Iraq and WMD?… because it sounds so far exactly like Iraq and WMD.

    Where is it? Where is the evidence?

    • Chooky 31.1

      +1 vto….reckon they are blaming the wrong side …ie the rebels did it …they have more reasons to

      ……more to the point, where is the evidence the rebels didnt do the gassing?

      ….and if the US backed rebels did the gassing …..how wicked is that, if the US bombs Syria?

      The crucial question: Where is the evidence?

      • Colonial Viper 31.1.1

        There is also a possibility that a rogue unit of the Syrian government forces, or some mid level commanders were responsible – i.e. nothing to do with Assad or the senior levels of the Syrian govt.

        So what is the US going to do? Strike at and degrade Syria’s command and control infrastructure, because there was chemical weapons use due to unsatisfactory command and control?

        It’s dumbass day.

        • exkiwiforces

          I was reading a Jane’s defence article today work that was updated over the weekend and all arrows/ evidence points to the Assad regime as the FSA does not have the capacity to mount a CW attack. But in saying that the report also stated there are Hard-core elements of the FSA that are openly seeking WMD’s (CW and BW argents) and if they did conduct that attack last week then its now gotten very untidy or heading that way very fast.

          I’m starting to think this Civil war could the West’s Munich moment “dam with do and dam if we don’t”.

  27. geoff 32

    Chris Trotter better be wrong. He thinks caucus may attempt to ‘fix’ the leadership vote.

    • Alanz 32.1

      I thought there will be one deadline for all the votes and then they will be counted up so caucus does not, before voting, get advance information of the membership and affiliates votes.

      If otherwise, then the rules would have explicitly stated that.

      • karol 32.1.1

        Hipkins should not be involved in counting votes. That’s the concern.

        • Alanz

          That too.

        • Neoleftie

          I think it’s correct that the two section of the party are represented.
          Is it the position or symbol or just that its an ABC Hipkins doing the counting.
          Actually look to tims barnetts background if one is concerned, not that I am.
          The count will go in the second round to cunliffe then the real fight begins…can’t wait.

        • just saying

          Who is overseeing the conuting process?
          What are the checks and balances?
          I don’t trust Hipkins to count my online vote, or to maintain confidentiality about the tally from the caucus.

    • Neoleftie 32.2

      If this become a stitch up job by the old hands welding the power of the old party behind the scenes then the new found democratic rights of the members have been tramples upon.
      What are they so scared of…unsettling the staus quo and the trough perhaps.

      Time to see off the old non reactionaries and then the Tory raiders…

    • millsy 32.3

      It wouldnt suprise me if they did.

      I think Shane Jones name being announced as leader of the NZLP is a very realistic possibility. An SJ led party would have no real difference to the 5th Labour and 5th National governments, which some of the establishment wouldnt mind.

  28. Linz 33

    Six days to go and it’s all rumours, speculation, gossip, sniping. Time for nerves of steel, folks. Let’s not get caught up in all the crap that’s flying around. That’s just playing into the Nats’ hands, and the likes of Duncan Garner. No time for galloping paranoia

    Also, I haven’t got my voting papers yet, or the email with a pin number. I desperately want to vote so it’s hard to be patient. Got to thinking about people in other countries where democracy is much more fragile. Asked myself how far would I walk to be able to cast my vote? How long would I stand in the rain? Answers: 25 miles; 4 hours. (I hope I don’t ever have to prove it.)

    • Ron 33.1

      I would get on phone to head office and demand that they send you an email immediately. How hard can it be to ensure emails go out the day you contact them

  29. felix 34

    Just caught up with an episode of Backbenches from a couple of weeks ago in which Trevor Mallard claimed that The Standard is an “anti-Labour” website.

    Which is a bit like a borer claiming that the pesticides are anti-timber.

  30. Aotearoean 35

    If the ABC Labour MPs are successful in dumping Cunliffe who will they select as the deputyJones?

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