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Open mike 09/09/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:40 am, September 9th, 2014 - 365 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

365 comments on “Open mike 09/09/2014 ”

  1. timbo 1

    A good start to the morning. The NZ Herald editorial is very critical of the vagueness of National’s tax cut proposal, and identifies the rift between Key and English on this. Vernon Small, in a bid for neutrality perhaps, says much the same…

  2. dv 2

    Current Debt clock
    NZ$ 86,891,553,770

    So being of the cusp of something really special means a $10 a week tax cut in 3 years!!!!

    • Paul 2.1

      Good financial managers.
      What a joke.

      • BM 2.1.1

        Yep, should have taken the axe to WFF and interest free student loans.

        Both those policies are a mill stone around the neck of NZ.

        • Paul

          And lower tax rates to 12.5% as well?
          Abolish the minimum wage?

          Return to The poorhouses of Victorian era…
          Just as long as you’re doing well, let’s not worry about others.

          • BM

            Then why are you whining about debt levels?

            As you no doubt know, money was borrowed to keep those two policies supported until NZ got over the worst of the financial crisis.

            • dv

              So tax cuts had nothing to do with it then.

              Not bailing out SCF would have helped too.

              • BM

                WFF is a tax cut.

                • mickysavage

                  Agreed. But you seem to prefer that tax cuts be given to the wealthy than to ordinary families. Why is that?

                • miravox

                  “WFF is a tax cut.”

                  It’s an employer subsidy. Employers are the ones who are off the hook with regard to paying a fair wage. It’s taxpayers who are making up the difference between minimum pay and the cost of raising a family.

                  • @ miravox..

                    ..+ 1..

                    ..(that cannot be be said often enough..

                    ..how us mug-punters are screwed every which way by these profiteers/tory politicians..

                    ..lying/thieving/oppressing bastards..all of them..)

                  • The Lone Haranguer

                    Yes Miravox, it is a wages subsidy from the tax payer to the employer, but to be fair, you are inaccurate to say its the difference between the minimum wage and the cost of raising a family.

                    Most folk who get WFF are not on the minimum wage at all.

                    Maybe a whole tax package/wages package needs to be worked on rather than an ad-hoc bunch of adjustments to tax which is what most parties do when they get into power.

                    And yes, a UBI as part of the whole deal

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      You start with the UBI and design the tax system around it.

                      IMO, The biggest problem we have is that the entire tax system is ad hoc. It’s never been designed but put together by governments for achieving ideological purposes.

                  • Murray Olsen

                    And the accommodation allowances paid by WINZ are a subsidy to landlords. Too much of Labour’s assistance to the poor actually ends up straight in the pockets of the wealthy. It’s no great surprise that NAct is happy to keep paying.

                • framu

                  no its not

                  its an employer subsidy

                  plus you side stepped the question

              • Graeme

                Check and see how much they have recovered before you make a rash statement like that

                • dv

                  I know that they recovered 44 million from the sale of scales(name?) to a neighbour of John Key
                  That co was listed on the market a year later for 144 million

            • Paul

              It’s easily solved..
              raise tax levels on the wealthy and make them pay their fair share,
              raise tax levels on large corporates and make them pay their fair share,
              Make overseas multinationals actually pay tax and prevent loopholes.
              Create a Robin Hood tax for financial transactions.

              Norway does it.
              And they’re not subject to the whim of large foreign moneyed interests.

              • BM

                Tax, Tax,Tax,Tax,Tax.

                Personally I’d like to see people having to pay as little tax as possible.

                • framu

                  i would prefer the most efficient delivery of peoples requirements to live and thrive in a safe and stable society

                  sometimes that means pooling resources as a nation

                  your making the classic mistake of thinking that costs disappear with tax cuts – often the cost to you increases

                  • miravox

                    “sometimes that means pooling resources as a nation”


                    Health system cost for care rankings by country are a perfect example of this effect.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    your making the classic mistake of thinking that costs disappear with tax cuts – often the cost to you increases

                    Not often, always. It’s why we see services that have been shifted to user pays costing more while providing less.

                • Paul

                  That’s because you don’t believe in society
                  You’ll also notice that most people wont get more tax.
                  Just the bludgers at the top of society.
                  And multinationals.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  It isn’t possible to sustain a level of taxes that exacerbates inequality and child poverty. Eventually you get loaded into a Tumbrill.

                  • .@ oan..

                    …+ 1..

                    ..continuing/growing inequality in this way only has two possible destinations..

                    ..a fascist state..

                    ..or a revolution..

                    ..certainly not a functioning democracy..

                    ..and the cruelty/uncaring of the bm’s of this world..is only surpassed by their economic stupidity..

                    ..their ignorance of an economics 101 maxim..

                    ..that the fastest way to grow an economy..

                    ..is to increase the incomes of the bottom economic-rung of society..

                    ..for the simple reason that pretty much 100% of that money instantly churns straight back into the economy at large..

                    ..into retailers’ tills..and the pockets of service-providers…

                    ..but it seems ideology/poor-hating blinds them to this most simple of concepts/facts of life..

                • Molly

                  Perhaps your idea of “as little as possible” should have the codicil “to maintain a healthy society and environment”.

                  Then your point is not so simplistic, and we can move the discussion on to what you consider to be a healthy society and environment.

                  • BM

                    I agree, I should have probably added that to my comment

                    Of course tax needs to be paid to maintain a healthy society and environment.

                    Every one understands that, it’s just at what levels that people disagree on.

                    • Molly

                      Be brave BM – and put it out there.

                      What is your idea of a healthy society and environment?

                      And don’t take the easy route of “what people should do…”. That implies that we all are born with equal opportunities and skills. I’m guessing you are old enough to know that is not the case. And also knowledgeable enough to know that monetary excess is not a driving force for many, so it can’t be the one and only consideration in creating community.

                      I would genuinely like to know what you believe the basic provisions of a healthy society and environment should be.

                    • dv

                      ‘Every one understands that

                      I am not sure that is not true.

                      But BM I agree with the rest of the statement.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      It’s whatever the National Party tells him.

                    • KJT

                      Lets go by the evidence, then.

                      All socially healthy, stable, prosperous countries with a decent standard of living have, or had, a State share of a mixed economy between 45 and 70%, and strong welfare and redistributive policies. 91% top tax rate in the USA, for example.
                      Including the USA, UK, Sweden and New Zealand in the past, and the countries that are doing well now.. Singapore, South Korea, Taiwan, Norway, etc.

                      National intends to reduce, by their own admission, State share to 26%………… Only dysfunctional third world economies have that low a State share.
                      Last time that was attempted we had a recession when no one else had one. Richardson’s era.

                      Since 1984 when there has been a deliberate attempt to destroy our functioning country for short term profit we have lagged behind all similar countries that did not adopt the neo-liberal religion.
                      Sweden, a recent convert, is going downhill just like all the rest who have adopted neo-liberal dogma.

                      Substituting infrastructure and services paid for by taxation with private sector profit making enterprises has not resulted in the promised efficiencies and lower costs anywhere it has been tried. We just end up borrowing, to pay for services that were formally adequately covered by taxes.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      a State share of a mixed economy between 45 and 70%,

                      I’m slowly coming to the conclusion that it needs to be between 70 and 80 percent so as to minimise the damage done when the private sector inevitably collapses.

                      Substituting infrastructure and services paid for by taxation with private sector profit making enterprises has not resulted in the promised efficiencies and lower costs anywhere it has been tried.

                      But it has resulted in much higher costs and a few people getting massively higher incomes from ripping off the country.

                    • David H

                      Of course tax needs to be paid to maintain a healthy society and environment.

                      So why vote for ACT and that fool Whyte who wants to give businesses a free ride by cutting their tax rate to 12.5%. How much will that cost? And more importantly, who will have to make up the shortfall? No answers to those questions.

                • tricledrown

                  Bereft Meaningless tax cut 6 months out from the next election if the National govt can balance the books which after 6 years and record commodities prices have failed!

                  • Rodel

                    David H
                    Don’t worry. Nobody except a few wealthy political sociopaths in Remuera/Epsom will vote for the joke that is act.

                • The Lone Haranguer

                  I would like to pay no tax at all either. But the paying of tax is part of being part of the community and the country. Theres some stuff we have to do for the common good.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    It could be argued that everything we do affects the common good. Cutting taxes so that the country can no longer provide the necessary services is a negative effect and that which National is proposing to do.

            • aerobubble

              Money is cheap globally, its being printed. The GFC was caused by financial over indebtedness. Key had to pay for tax cuts to the top 10%, though they were not hurting from the GFC, and he said that it was in order to keep benefits going. Oh please even the cretinous right know that was a big porker. The financial crisis due to a market failure that would have lowered house prices sent many wealthy people to the scrap pile, sounds like actually the market working properly. Unfortuately welfare for the richest is not an election winner, even with lower and middle class earners who pay more, work just as hard and get mugged by National.

        • Chris

          And sell New Zealand land to overseas interests because it lifts prices which means it’s worth more than we thought it was worth and that’s always good for the whole country:


      • Rich 2.1.2

        They are ‘good*’ financial managers, just not for the benefit of NZ.

        * I’m sure the owners of that 80 billion debt think they’re doing a good job.

    • Skinny 2.2

      Not one of Cunliffe’s brightest ideas referring to a block of cheese. Way too old hat how about he be a bit more original I think that was coined by that idiot Goff a few years back.

      • Paul 2.2.1

        Just imagine how the media would have torn into Cunliffe, Norman or Peters if they had put forward such a vague tax cut plan as Key’s….

      • CC 2.2.2

        Nah Skinny – probably a good call. Cunliffe has repackaged one of Key’s own lines and handed it back.

        • Skinny

          Without meaning to sound like a know all smart arse. I would prefer DC hang one on Key that is current that people can relate to. Something like “John Key is comfortable voters power prices rise by 20%…. that is $60 on a $300 power bill, so Nationals tax may just pay the GST. But the reality is he is talking 2017, meanwhile the public cop the 20% + GST today right bloody now!

          • Draco T Bastard

            We had this discussion the other day about the left over thinking things.

          • David H

            Or the other way is this Key will raise Prices by X plus the housing bubble will expo and interest rates will skyrocket the reserve bank steps in. Ad infinitum and give you 10 bucks in 3 years to pay for it. On the other hand. Labout will increase wages by 2.00 ph that works out to say $60 – $80 Gross, or what ever hours you work Plus fairer working conditions cleaner rivers etc etc. So they put on a CGT and raise the top tax rate, as they should they’ve been creaming it for the last 6 years.

      • ScottGN 2.2.3

        Actually the ‘block of cheese tax cut’ jibe was first used by John Key in reply to Cullen’s prosposed tax cuts before the 2008 election. It’s quite clever for Labour to paint Key and English in the same light since it reminds everyone what a bunch of hypocrites National are and how utterly devoid they are of any good ideas to take the economy forward and that maybe their elections chances aren’t quite so rosy as we’re lead to believe, otherwise why throw this desperate and pathetic effort into the campaign at this point?

  3. tc 3

    In todays national herald online a ‘leading’ economist states labour and national have the same policies but minor parties have policies that are not good for nz.

    no detail naturally just chucking it out there to keep that theme going.

    • Paul 3.1

      Shamubeel Eaqub used to be an economist for Goldman Sachs.
      Hardly a ringing endorsement of his credentials.


      • Molly 3.1.1

        Went to an Auckland Conversation a few years back with Eaqub, talking about housing affordability.

        Shamubeel’s contribution was text book neolib, along the lines of – why worry? If people can’t afford to buy they can rent…

        No mention of the breakdown of community ties by transient households, no concern for the low-maintenance housing stock some of our landlords own.

        After his twenty minutes – I had scribbled down a whole lot of contradictions in his presentation. As he has come forward lately expressing concern about housing affordability – my initial impression of him as an idiot has been reinforced. Guess he is looking for a house to buy now. He wasn’t at the time.

        • Weepus beard

          He’s recently come out and asked for reforms to the rental market in providing more protections for tenants. With the current government in charge I suspect he’s pushing shit uphill. The current government is quite comfortable with the level of residential property speculation and investment with cheap foreign money. Blame the councils for the high cost of housing seems to be their fall back line.

          The screwing of healthy communities is the result.

      • Rosie 3.1.2

        Shamubeel Eaqub seems to often be trotted out as a ‘commentator’ for the media when they need an apologist for the govt or a “nothing to see here, it’s all ok” guy. He comes across as a right wing puppet completely out of touch with the lives of people who have been shunted down the ladder a few rungs in the last decade.

        I remember shortly after Natz came to power and everyone was talking about “tough economic times” as a euphemism for widespread job losses, increasing cost of living and accommodation and the growing awareness that we had a serious child poverty problem, HE said “yes times are tough. Mrs Eaqub instead of going to the beauty salon now just splashes out on a new nail colour instead, as a treat” (words to that effect).

        He’s totes Planet Key. No idea.

    • RedBaronCV 3.2

      Well it was the right wing economists who made the mess in the first place so could he assume some personal responsibility there please and stop trying to blame the competition for the mess.
      Typical crap when he can’t even specify the dangerous policies – expensive moon landings perhaps?

  4. mickysavage 4

    A weird column this morning by John Armstrong. He spent 90% of the time reviewing Dirty Politics but then spent the last 10% complaining about David Cunliffe’s supposed gaffe. And nothing about National’s tax cut weirdness which Timbo mentions above.

    We live in a strange world where wanting to check details verses corruption and pulling policy out of your arse is thought to be politically more damaging.


    • Tautoko Viper 4.1

      I looked like he was going to finally get into the real issues then suddenly, as the shadow of Steven Joyce stood over him, he reverted back to his pitiful drivel. Note how he kept away from the subject of Jason Ede and the PM’s office. A poor effort, John. You will not look back with any pride on the way you have avoided the connection to the PM.

    • ScottGN 4.2

      All of John Armstrong’s efforts since the campaign started have been designed to reinforce the perception that National’s re-election is inevitable. I have given up reading him and I suspect everyone else has too.

      • phillip ure 4.2.1

        no no..mike williams hails him as the eminence gris of nzs’ political commentators..

        ..(just yesterday..!..)

        ..but that probably says more about williams than anyone else..

    • Hanswurst 4.3

      We live in a strange world where wanting to check details verses corruption and pulling policy out of your arse is thought to be politically more damaging.

      I don’t think that is the world we live in. We live in a world in which John Armstrong wants to make it more damaging. Having said that, while John Armstrong is clearly a tory, he’s far from the worst of the bunch. His articles at least sometimes reflect some of the ebb and flow of political ideas and performance, and he can be critical of Key. He is certainly a model of balance and critical analysis compared to that paragon of pro-Key puffery, Tracy Watkins, who I’m convinced actually lives on Planet Key.

    • Skinny 4.4

      Hey Mickey can you please get Labour’s position on GMO free in Auckland & Northland. I saw/spoke to David Cunliffe the other week. He said he would get back to me, it is a very important issue to many growers in Northland and votes hinder on a response.

      Submissions close today you can make a submission on the WDC website. Let’s ensure local councils don’t get overridden by central government, who inturn must stand up to the Multi National corporations such as Monsanto.

    • adam 4.5

      Armstrong is so far up the beltway, he be lucky if he can still smell roses.

  5. Red Blooded 5

    Is anyone else sick of Peter Williams reading the news on breakfast TV and every time he reads the shares for electricity companies fall or rise he offers the reason being that either the fear of a Labour Green coalition or the polls relieving the fear of a Labour Green coalition. Someone should tell him to STFU and just read the news instead of offering opinions. Does his Party Political Broadcast count for Election Funding. Grrr

    • Paul 5.1

      He’s just a puppet for the banks, like the rest of the media.

    • tc 5.2

      Thats the behaviour of an soe that lives in the shadow of joyce and key.

      Williams is well connected and knows where his bread is buttered as hes been through all this before, read a few ct lines then off to golf for petey.

    • Zolan 5.3

      “Does his Party Political Broadcast count for Election Funding. Grrr”
      Perhaps it should be put to the Electoral Commission, and maybe get some unwanted coverage. (I know, I’m dreaming)

    • RedBaronCV 5.4

      Yes to STFU but is he falling foul of the Financial advisors regime by handing out this opinion?
      And for every lab/ green policy that may affect a stock negatively there are some stocks set to be hugely advantaged by it. (and policies that give a huge advantage to the rest the rest of the country too)

    • Halcyon 5.5

      No his comments don’t count as Electioneering. They are an accurate statement as to the cause of the fluctuation. Having a single buying platform for power will drive down the price and thus reduce the profit paid to shareholders. If I had shares is one of the generating companies I would be watching the polls carefully. No, on second thoughts I would be selling now.

      • McFlock 5.5.1

        Attributing the cause of a daily price fluctuation is delphic bullshit. It’s attributing one aggregate motive to the purchase decisions of thousands or millions of actors, based on nothing more than guesswork and coincidence.

        If a priest attributes an earthquake to God being displeased at the possibility of a Labour government, that’s electioneering. And market analysts (alongside economists) differ only in that priests have flashier dress sense.

    • Tracey 5.6

      Meanwhile, Gerry Brownlee takes the moral high ground against revelation Greens made submissions on behalf of people on its email list, seemingly without their knowledge.;

      “Transport Minister Gerry Brownlee said it was disappointing a “democratic process can potentially be subverted by this sort of activity”. ”

      Irony much??

      Note Green Party immediately apologizes, they don’t lie and pretend they didn’t do it, and rely on the media to nod knowingly.

      For the record, am disappointed Greens have done this, they need far better systems and records if they are going to purport to represent people in submissions.

      • Tracey 5.6.1

        ” “It does tend to call into question many of the claims about public opinion made by the Green Party,” he said.

        A Greens spokesman said Brownlee was “scaremongering” over an “honest misunderstanding”.

        The emails were from an online submission form and others from a phone survey.

        It was possible email addresses were taken down incorrectly, the spokesman said.

        Sage said the emails were not checked before they were used.

        “We were using a new method of public engagement, having people call people on our database to alert them to the submission process,” she said.

        It been abandoned in Christchurch because of the botch-up but would continue to be used elsewhere.

        Sage said she had apologised over the phone to a person unhappy about the submission being sent on their behalf.

        ECan director operations Wayne Holton-Jeffreys said the submissions had been removed.
        Ad Feedback

        “It is important to us that we get a true reflection on what the community is thinking so wherever possibly we check the legitimacy of submissions to weed out those that might otherwise unfairly skew the result,” he said”

      • weka 5.6.2

        Link http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/10474271/Greens-rebuked-for-email-tactic

        I’m also pissed off at the GP. They’re moving too fast on these processes and need to take a step back and look at ethics, privacy, data sharing etc. My guess is that they have consultants who don’t have a background in those things, otherwise they would be getting built into the processes.

    • Draco T Bastard 5.7

      Does his Party Political Broadcast count for Election Funding.

      Make it a formal question to the Electoral Commission.

      • Red Blooded 5.7.1

        Yeah, thanks for the suggestion, rang them and they fobbed me off to Broadcasting Standards Commission. I know now slow those wheels turn and Nationals tax cuts will have kicked in by the time they slap Peter Williams with the wet bus ticket.

        • Draco T Bastard

          That, unfortunately, doesn’t surprise me. IMO, it’s a dereliction of duty on their part when they’re letting shit like this past.

  6. Paul 6

    RNZ headlining at 7 on a future birth in the Royal family.
    Even the father of the impending child told the British media they should be focusing on more important stuff…
    Scotland, Ukraine, Syria, Libya….

    And what is RNZ’s excuse for pandering to the Women’s Weekly market?
    Don’t we have more important things to be discussing?

  7. Rodel 7

    The first to fall?
    Charter school in Northland costing $27,000 a year per pupil compared to $6,000 for a nearby state school.
    And a failure from week one requiring massive amounts to fix.(and not fixed)
    Thanks John Banks and the other John for your clever secret idea.
    Hope Labour uses this to condemn the entire charter school dodgy fiasco.

    Also-Nice to hear Cunliffe showing a bit of mongrel to Espiner this morning on RNZ.

  8. Tautoko Viper 8

    I like this tweet

    John Key is doing to this generation what Roger Douglas did to mine Im voting the Nats out

    • weka 8.1

      I’ve been thinking that too. I wonder how many political parties will now look to their constitutions and make sure that they can’t be taken over by radical ideologues or groups with agenda different to the membership.

  9. northshoreguynz 9

    Where is Steven Joyce? Babysitting Jason Ede?

    • David H 9.1

      Where’s any NAT except TricKey n Blinglish? They have all been very quiet, probably in their home electorates trying to distance them selves from the so called leadership. I’m just waiting for my local NAT to darken my doorstep And I can tell Guy very publicly and loudly I don’t support polluting Farmers, Dirty Politics and TricKey.

  10. Ant 10

    Shouldn’t there be some stories on some emails?

    • Zolan 10.1

      It’s likely that Hager got everything that could be justifiably exposed from them.
      Exposing private individual ugliness for its own sake is below even our MSM’s threshold.

    • karol 10.2

      Hager said in his talk last night, he took all the most significant emails and wrote about them in his book. He said Slater’s injunction attempt last week came after the horse had well and truly bolted – ie little of significance now in the unpublished emails.

      I think the thing now is to look for further investigations by journalists, Royal Commission (?) and others (Unions?) into dodgy dealings that have been made public so far.

      Also, people need to keep on looking for evidence that Jason Ede (and thus Key) were involved in the Dirty Politics.

      • phillip ure 10.2.1

        @ zolan and karol..

        nothing more to see..?

        ..are you kidding..?

        ..the slater/ede emails are where the action is..

        ..and the whaledump person gave 50 gig to just one msm outlet..

        ..apn,,fairfax..and tv3 re the ones hogging the goodies..

        ..(i just hope others have copies..in case those msm entities decide to cover-up..)

        • karol

          Well, then Hager is not telling the truth? Go listen to what he says in the vid from last night’s talk.

          And, also, without corroborating evidence of what actually went on, Slater et al, can just continue to claim it was all idle talk in the emails.

          • phillip ure

            karol..i dunno what hager said last nite..

            ..but i do know has said several times that the hacker did not give him all the material that he had..

            ..(and surely that the email that brought collins down..was ‘news’ to hager..

            ..only confirms this..?..)

            (and i repeat..the hacker said he gave 50 gigs to just one media outlet..)

            ..there is much more still to come..

            ..and if it doesn’t..there has been a concerted cover-up..

            ..and that wd be just corruption piled upon corruption..

            ..and that is why slater sought that injunction..

            ..there are still lots of horses in that stable..

            ..that is what he was trying to shut the door on..

            • Tracey

              ” .i dunno what hager said last nite.. ”

              Hence karol gave the link so you could write from an informed position

          • hoom

            I thought it was quoted as 8GB.

            Even 8GB is a hell of a lot of emails to sort through.
            8MB (a thousandth of 8GB) of plain text email content could be over 5000 pages worth.

            Most of the data amount would actually be taken up with spam/images/newsletters or other attachments.
            Assuming most emails are fairly short, Headers will probably outnumber the plain text content by a fair margin as well.

            But thats still a vast amount of content.

            • phillip ure

              @ hoom..

              ..i thought it was 50..but even if five..

              ..as you say..’thats still a vast amount of content.’

            • yeshe

              Nicky Hager was given 8 gbs only from a large haul of several years worth. I can’t remember seeing a gb total for the whole of Rawshark’s work, but 8 gbs only for Nicky.

              So 50 gbs to someone else is hardly a contradiction.

              And Karol and Phil .. I don’t think Nicky’s comment last night re ‘locking the gate after horse has bolted’ necessarily means there is little else to come.

              I hear it more that Slater was three weeks late in seeking an injunction which has allowed so much already to be published.

              I think there are mountains to come; may it be soon.

              • karol

                Hager’s comment is at about 1 hour 23 mins into the video. He said the best bits are in his book. He said that there will probably be some more bits and pieces come via the media. But he makes it sound like they will be of lesser significance to what is already in the book.

        • Puddleglum

          the whaledump person gave 50 gig to just one msm outlet

          So are you saying that the 8GB that Hager received was only part of what Rawshark obtained?

          Also, where did you get this figure of 50GB from?

        • Tracey

          You were also certain banks barrister would apply for and get a discharge without conviction. He never applied for it.

          • phillip ure

            that is yet to be fully played out..

            .so you are looking at a half-baked cake/a half-played chess-game..

            ..and once again..i am astounded that you trained as a lawyer..

            ..(and i have to tell you this..?..


        • adam

          Yes Phillip, other media have it.

  11. One Anonymous Bloke 11

    Despicable Glucina.

    I wonder if Hager really said that or whether he was talking about her behaviour.

    He’s wrong about the press gallery: they won’t stop until someone stops them.

    • David H 11.1

      The pity is, that the Journalists not named, are up to their old games already.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 11.1.1

        Hager’s notion that time will help them recognise their degradation glosses over the fact that they were fully aware of it already.

        • karol

          But Hager does serve them notice, saying I know who you are, clean up your act.

        • Puckish Rogue

          Hes protecting his mates as he doesn’t want to burn his bridges, its completely understandable

          • One Anonymous Bloke

            Ah hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah



            • Puckish Rogue

              Don’t get me wrong, I think hes a gutless coward for not outing his mates (because lets face it politicians and Cameron slater are easy targets) but i understand why hes doing it

              Its not easy telling the truth about your mates

              • So you agree that many senior political Press Gallery journalists were (and presumably still are) being fed ‘easy’ stories amounting to smear-hits on National’s political opponents that the journalists knew were ultimately coming from the Beehive?

              • Hanswurst

                How do you know they’re his mates?

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                One flaw in your self-deluding notion: he explicitly dropped them in it last night, as quoted in the link.

                They’re all doing it, according to Hager, and no, your smears don’t work, trash.

              • weka

                “because lets face it politicians and Cameron slater are easy targets”

                You really, really haven’t been paying attention have you. Slater routinely smears and attacks people he has a problem with, and the politicians and their cronies help him. The politicians involved are part of the govt that uses its spy agencies to spy on NZ citizens, and have actively been smearing/attacking people for their own agenda.

                I’m sure Hager found all that easy /sarc.

              • yeshe

                Well Puckish, if you were my mate, it would not be easy, but I would tell you the truth that you need to get your nurse back to check your meds and increase them.

  12. Flipnz 12

    Last elections debt was biggest priority to reduce. It was used as an excuse to sell assets. Well according to this graph http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/09/08/another-half-billion-borrowed-each-year-for-tax-cuts/ has got worse. FAIL.
    John Key is supposed to be a money market wizard. Only thing he knows how to do is make money for his corporate clients. As the great salesman he is he has convinced NZ citizens they are his clients. Well they are WRONG. Sucked in badly. Lets see how gullible we are again.

    • Olwyn 12.1

      Well said Flipnz. You have it in a nutshell.

    • Draco T Bastard 12.2

      John Key is supposed to be a money market wizard.

      He is a money market wizard – he’s just not working for NZ.

      As the great salesman he is he has convinced NZ citizens they are his clients.

      He’s never been, and never will be, a great statesman. What he is is a great fraud.

  13. fambo 13

    Good points being made by “LegaSea regarding National’s proposed fishing reserves – The full press release is here – https://www.facebook.com/#!/LegaSea

    Further analysis of the proposal shows very limited small scale commercial fishing, and no trawling, is currently occurring in the proposed Hauraki Gulf recreational fishing reserve.

    There are also concerns about displacing fishing effort to already stressed areas such as the Manukau and Kaipara Harbours and the Bay of Plenty.

    National suggest they will pay compensation to the commercial industry and propose a discussion paper on how this might be achieved. The plan’s detail reveals it is likely that smaller local operators, who use lesser impact fishing methods compared with trawling, will be the ones who are removed from the proposed recreational only fishing areas. Most of these operators don’t own quota and rely on leasing it. They all depend on fishing for their livelihood, yet they may miss out on compensation altogether.

    • Halcyon 13.1

      Like all pressure groups legaSea have stretched the truth and shifted boundaries slightly to try and establish a case. I suggest you try to find the original public announcement and you will see what I mean.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 13.1.1

        I suggest you stop smearing “pressure groups” with your facile projections and take personal responsibility for your argument rather than bludging off other people.

        Make your case, don’t expect a hand-out.

        What stretched truths? What boundaries? Bring everyone up to speed, or is it down to your level?

  14. Tracey 14

    Strange thing happening out there in right wing land…

    I have two brothers and a father in my family. My mother died when I was 23.

    My father came from a working class Labour voting Family from the Manuwatu. After getting a job in Banking he has voted National and more recently ACT. he worked with Don Brash at Braodbank, the first merchant bank in NZ.

    One brother, after helen Clark became Labour PM, has voted right. One brother has voted nats and ACT for over 18 years.

    BOTH brothers have indicated they are party voting…


    One is in Epsom and will vote for GOLDSMITH (to get National back in) but Greens because he wants some of their policies.

    My father is 78. He is voting Simon Bridges for his electorate and CP or ACT for party…

    to follow is what I wrote to all of them following an email exchange between us all.

    My first response

    “You know those little animals that people had on their dashboards that nod a lot?

    That’s Peter Dunne.

    Colin Craig will say lots of words but be happy if we start executing burglars again, and Jamie Whyte will like that compromise cos David Seymour 4 weeks ago said the most important matter to Epsom voters was unsolved burglaries
    Maori Party will deserve the most because of their humility and focus on the future but will get the least and Winston will get a few things… but will he get his Royal Commission of Enquiry? ONLY if key decides he has done his bit and resigns to head the world bank or go home (to the USA).
    And Peter Dunne will still be nodding on the dashboard

    I’ve decided to cast my vote for the kind of world it would be cool to live in…

    So David Seymour (to try (unsuccessfully) to get rid of ACT – the party that wants everyone to stand on their own two feet, but requires a nod from Nat’s to even have legs) and Greens. I have no expectation the Greens will ever be a majority party in NZ. I’m happy at how they go about their work, focused on policies(whether you like their policies or not that is what they focus on) and as I said to XXXXXX they can work with National and labour (they worked outside Govt with Nats in 2008 giving them C and F in return for insulating homes in NZ, a very successful venture (which probably helped keep Glenn in work 😉 ) and so successful the Nats now claim it as their own. And before anyone tells me their economic policy is crazy or something is loonie, go and read their actual policy rather than what journalists or opponents say it is.


    follow up

    “Everyone needs to start thinking MMP. NOT to fiddle the seats but to get closer to what you want


    Dad wants National. He either votes Bridges and ticks National or votes Bridges and ticks someone else.

    CP and ACT seem to be his choices but why? He seems to prefer ACT for its policies not sure the draw to CP, unless it is to provide Nats with a partner to get them the control of treasury.

    That being the case why not vote Greens, Dad for your party. Don’t spit out you tea, read on.

    Under MMP they won’t be a major party. They have shown they will not be the tail that wags the dog, not under labour nor with National have they tried to do that. Who has? ACT? Yes. Winston? Yes. Colin Craig will try. Dunne nods.

    Truly Dad, take a look at that page I sent you. If you think some of what the Greens are on about is something you support but others you don’t, you can assume that National wont concede the things you don’t like, nor will the greens try to wag the dog because given the chance they have not done that. It’s also in their policy not to.

    So, in fact and by history this Green party, in many ways, delivers what you might want a few policies that the Nats don’t feel they can promote for the fear of scaring off their middle (even though they are the ones who have scared them of the Greens by their rhetoric)
    But national being in charge.
    Maori Party have NOT been at the Cabinet table with Nats. They sit outside Cabinet. Greens can too. National voted against Seabed and Foreshore NOT cos they disagreed with it, but because it didn’t go far enough, but they work with MP.

    I can see a far nicer NZ if MP, Greens and Nats worked together (with two parties outside Cabinet). The Greens have NEVER said they won’t work with national, that’s a lie. XXXXX is right, in 2008 to 2011 they got 400m of their polices, MP got 285m.

    I KNOW that seems an anathema to you, but if you truly think about it and examine the facts…

    Please DON’T vote for Colin Craig’s party… Vote ACT if you must but do not tick that CP box.”

    • karol 14.1

      Some good stuff there, Tracey, but I’m not keen on the way you are talking up Greens working with the Nats. The Greens will only work with the Nats, and any other party, on policies where there is agreement. But, actually, all parties do that. Some opposition parties have voted with Nats on specific policies.

      You make the Greens sound Blue-Green, which they are not.

      Interesting, though to hear how your family are going off National. They coming from Labour roots, so not tribal National.

      • weka 14.1.1

        “The Greens have NEVER said they won’t work with national, that’s a lie”

        That’s right, they haven’t. What they have said is that they will work with National on policy, but because National policy and GP policy are so far apart, it is extremely unlikely that the GP would support a National govt (so, no coalition, no C and S). If National changes its policies, it’s more likely that the GP would work with them.

        They remain open to working with any party on individual policy.

        I think saying that the GP would work with National outside of cabinet is misleading because it implies that they would actively support National having the power to govern and I don’t think that is true.

        • Tracey

          I re read Green policy last night and I can see things the Nats would compromise to the Greens.

          I certainly wasnt being deliberately misleading to them. I only get a slender window of opportunity to have my say so have to get as much in as poss.

          Of most interest to me two staunch right voters are looking at giving party vote to Green… Which is NOT where we are being told the green vote is coming from.

          • weka

            I found your original comment very interesting. I’ve heard ACT voters say they will shift to GP. This doesn’t surprise me particularly because there is a lot of smart policy from the Greens that could be cross party, which I think is what you are pointing out to your family.

      • Tracey 14.1.2

        Not when you consider the context of my audience and the practical reality of the Greens 12% position.

        I was clearly “talking up” the Greens getting some of their policy through, even if National are the majority party.

        IF Nats get back in, I would rather see them in an arrangement with the Greens, than ploughing on with its lap dogs

        • weka

          What do you mean by ‘arrangement’?

          • Tracey

            I mean like how they got the 400m for home insulation

            I mean the way the MP do…

            I mean a Green party with 12-16% of vote can garner much more than thatfrom National SO should the LP not be able to form a govt then Any influence exerted by the greens on Nats is better than Nats without them.

            • weka

              Ok, thanks, that makes more sense. I think if you talk about arrangement it sounds like supporting for forming and maintaining govt (eg C and S). But if you talk about policy gains, that’s different.

              However, when you bring in the Mp, it confuses things, because the Mp support National on C and S as well as working on policy. I just don’t think the GP will ever do that (or if they do they will lose half their membership overnight).

              • Tracey

                Thanks for the clarification Weka.

                I try to keep stuff more simple for my family, not cos they are not intelligent but because they have swallow the hollowmen soundbites.

    • hoom 14.2

      “So David Seymour (to try (unsuccessfully) to get rid of ACT ”

      David Seymour is the ACT guy -> use Electorate vote Goldsmith (Nat) to get rid of ACT.
      Party vote for whoever you want to have most seats in parliament.

    • “..The Greens have NEVER said they won’t work with national, that’s a lie…”

      ew..!..just ew..!

      ..are the rightwing moles in the greens still there..?

    • Chooky 14.4

      +100…Interesting Tracey!…and …this is also worth taking a look at and gives a concise summary of marginal Electorates and who to vote for if you want to vote strategically and maximise your vote for a LEFT Coalition

      “The Daily Blog 2014 progressive voter guide – who to vote for to change the Government’ ( please share with as many people as you can)…….

      – See more at: http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/09/03/the-daily-blog-2014-progressive-voter-guide-who-to-vote-for-to-change-the-government/#sthash.1gP5CuFk.dpuf

      • Tracey 14.4.1

        I think the polling being done and not necessarily released to the public is probably showing some of what my family is exhibiting. Some who can’t quite bring themselves to take National down, may be making themselves feel “better” (can’t think of the right word) by voting Greens… to show they do “care” or something?

  15. Rich 15

    Caught a bit of Key on the radio yesterday morning, talking about the Greens and how they wanted changes “just for the sake of the environment”.

  16. hoom 16

    “Battleground Auckland: The seats that matter”

    Missing from the article?
    Only the single most important seat in the country: Epsom.

    Nice one Herald!
    Great to see the usual good in-depth reporting there.

    I mean, its not like the residents of Epsom aren’t aware of the importance of this electorate but it could at least be mentioned, something like “Epsom -everyone knows its key & has had plenty of coverage but this article is about other electorates”

  17. Enough is Enough 17

    Where are Labour’s TV ads

    That row boat taking us backwards at great speed seems to be popping up everywhere I look.

    Are Labour just going to give us wall to wall coverage in the final week?

    • Puckish Rogue 17.1

      Where are Labours’s TV ads?

      – They’re broke, simple as that

      • Draco T Bastard 17.1.1

        TV ads are paid for by the government. No political party is actually allowed to buy more (It’s one of Acts pet peeves).

    • karol 17.2

      I don’t watch ads – mute or skip through them on recorded programmes, but in last few days I have had glimpses of the Labour ad being played several times. haven’t noticed any Nat ones.

    • Rosie 17.3

      Remember E is E The natz have truckloads of money from their corporate and individual wealthy sponsors. They have the big bikkies to be able to afford very expensive TV advertising.

      No Cabinet Club for Labour.

      • Puckish Rogue 17.3.1

        and yet Labour managed it under Helen Clark…maybe Labour need to take an honest look in the mirror

        • Rosie

          The policies of Labour are not targeted towards the upper 10% where as Nationals are. The 90% can’t fund TV campaigns. The 10% can.

    • Ant 17.4

      I noticed the Nat ads have been playing between all warriors games recently. Seemed like pretty good tactical placement.

      • karol 17.4.1

        My seeing more Labour ads may reflect the kinds of programmes I watch. Don’t watch Warrior games.

    • miravox 18.1

      Up too late to read through the post this morning PR? Tracey has already commented on this back up the thread.

      • Te Reo Putake 18.1.1

        PR’s working through today’s ‘talking points’ email. He’s up to bullet point 3.

      • Tracey 18.1.2

        Pukey’s head will explode at the idea that someone who supports the Greens would post something which shows them in a poor light.

        “does not compute. Does not compute”

  18. glen garforth 19

    i thought i was well informed politically and reasonably on to it.
    therefore last night i decided to find out where i could vote early.

    in doing this i came across the list of candidates in my electorate, rangitikei.
    no greens nor mana internet candidate.

    i foolishly assumed there would be a wider range of options as there were last election.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 19.1

      You also have a party vote.

    • karol 19.2

      I think some of the smaller parties don’t have the resources to run candidates in all electorates.

    • Te Reo Putake 19.3

      Glen, what’s the problem? Deborah Russell is an excellent candidate, she’s well worth your support.

      • glen garforth 19.3.1

        g’day karol, oab and trp. cheers for that.

        went into town and got the vote out of the system.

        i must say this early voting initiative (without needing a reason) is a great idea.

        tried to get my mum to come along as well, but for the first time in 5 deacdes, she is undecided.
        it takes a lot of discipline not to coerce or overtly pressure someone into voting the way you want them to.
        i left it at think of other peoples children/grandchildren when making up your mind.

    • Bearded Git 19.4

      hey glen most constituency votes have little importance in determining the shape of the government. If the Left wants to get Key out this is how to do it:

      Green Party Supporters-Party Vote Green
      Labour Party Supporters-Party Vote Labour
      Internet-Mana Supporters-Party Vote Internet-Mana (IMP)

      TE TAI TOKERAU Constituency
      Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote IMP-Hone Harawira

      EPSOM Constituency
      Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote National-Paul Goldsmith

      EAST COAST BAYS Constituency
      Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote National-Murray McCully

      OHARIU Constituency
      Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote Labour-Virginia Andersen

      WAIARIKI Constituency
      Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote IMP-Annette Sykes

      TE TAI HAUAURU Constituency
      Green, Labour and IMP supporters Candidate Vote Labour-Adrian Rurawhe

      If you don’t vote like this in these constituencies YOU ARE EFFECTIVELY VOTING FOR JOHN KEY.

      The effect of voting in the manner above is: 1. Hone wins and IMP coat-tails several other MP’s according to its % vote. 2. David Seymour (ACT) loses and ACT is history. 3. Colin Craig does not win the seat, the Conservatives have no seats so if they fall below 5% they get no MP’s. 4. Peter Dunne (UF) loses and United Future is history. 5. Sykes wins and Flavell (MP) loses and (probably) the Maori Party is history (see 6). 6. Rurawhe wins, McKenzie (MP) loses and probably the Maori Party is history (see 5).

  19. Puckish Rogue 20


    “Ms Harre told ONE News those are private communications and personally she wouldn’t use that language.”

    – Naah I think its in the public interest so its all good

    • karol 20.1

      I heard Harre on RNZ this morning. She pointed out the difference between Slater’s emails, and the Harawira one – the Slater emails point to a vast Nat Conspiracy to undermine democracy; Harawira’s email is just internal party communications over policy – unwise to use that sort of language, but an insignificant matter -and looks like just another of the VRWC’s diversionary beatups.

      Who leaked the emails?

      • phillip ure 20.1.1

        it doesn’t matter that harawira personally opposes legalisation of pot..

        ..as it is mana policy to have medical marijuana..end of story..

        ..the members have decided that..(and in fact i wd bet a majority of members would favour the internet party model of legalisation/regulation/taxation..so it is harawira who is out of step here..

        ..and if mana also used the policy-formation tool the internet party did..of member/open-forum policy formation..i am sure mana policy wd be in synch with the internet party model..)

        ..and harawira is there to do the will of the party members….not the other way around..

        ..so his beliefs..tho’ clearly important to him..

        ..do not..in the big picture..matter that much..

        (tho’ colour me puzzled..as the polling on native affairs shows domestic violence is the number one concern of voters in the maori seats..

        ..and the science shows cannabis can be a major tool to decrease domestic violence..

        ..(here is that science/evidence.. http://www.alternet.org/drugs/pot-smokers-are-less-likely-commit-domestic-violence )

        ..so..y’know..!..as i said..colour me puzzled ..as this is just one of the many reasons/ways why/how cannabis prohibition hurts maori..in particular..

        ..i am puzzled that harawira seemingly cannot see this..

        ..how ending cannabis prohibition will help those he cares/works for..

        ..much more than the guaranteed harm caused by continuing the logic-fail that is prohibition..

        ..i mean..!..the city of berkeley has just voted to provide free medical marijuana..to low income patients who will benefit from it..!


        ..we here in nz aren’t even in the ballpark on this isssue..)

        • The Al1en

          “it is mana policy to have medical marijuana..end of story….the members have decided that
          ..(and in fact i wd bet a majority of members would favour the internet party model of legalisation/regulation/taxation..so it is harawira who is out of step here..”

          So why didn’t they vote for it when making policy?
          It’s not because hone is a bit of a ranting dictatorial type leader who mustn’t be disobeyed, is it?
          The recent outbursts do add context to the mip party launch and his “I’m still the boss” comment.
          Harre was good dealing with the inapropriate swearing email, though it looked there was behind the scenes strife.

          “the polling on native affairs shows domestic violence is the number one concern of voters in the maori seats…and the science shows cannabis can be a major tool to decrease domestic violence..”

          No need to look at the ‘science’ to work out what you’re saying. Rather than Maori men (in the demographic of the topic) and violent abusive men in general sort their shit out, turn them into stoners and it will all be okay. Bunkum. If you’re going down that road, you might as well have mandatory prescribed inhibitor medication from the quack and pharmacy and do the job cheaper without increasing lung and associated cancers figures.

          Me, I’d rather the abusers manned up and took responsibility for their actions and worked to minimise, mitigate and control their anger.
          I’m sure if women really wanted dope head husbands and boyfriends they’d all be married to pete doherty.

      • Puckish Rogue 20.1.2

        Who leaked the emails?

        – Whaleoil obviously 😉

      • Puckish Rogue 20.1.3

        You have a political party paid for by a convicted crim that might just hold the balance of power and you have these type of ructions going on so yeah the public should know whats going so as to make an informed decision on who to vote for

        Can’t have it both ways

        • Hanswurst

          Which ways? What does Kim Schmitz’s historical record have to do with internal party communications about policy?

          • Puckish Rogue

            You can’t say its ok to hack Whaleoil emails because its in the public interest but then say its not to leak IMPs emails even though its very much in the public interest

            • McFlock

              Pukefest can’t see a difference between disagreements about party advertising campaigns, and telling bloggers about classified SIS memos (amongst other crimes against democracy).

              • Bob

                It shows that Hone is no longer the leader of the Internet-Mana movement, he is simply number one on the list because he is paid by Dotcom to be there, very much in the public interest. If people think they are voting for the Mana movement they are very much mistaken as shown by this email.
                Obviously you can’t see that McFlock.

                • McFlock

                  Dear Bob,
                  this email merely shows that IMP is a collaboration between two non-identical organisations.

                  Anyone with half a brain already knew that, because that has been publicly announced from day one. As has the post-election plan.

                  So apparently you think that the “public interest” aspect of making the email public was that it tells the public what had already been public knowledge.

                  As opposed to the Hager book, which confirmed conspiracies, vicious plotting, and outright corruption of democratic processes to a corrosive extent that had barely even been suspected, let alone already confirmed and confessed to the public.

                  Are you really incapable of seeing a distinction between uncovering previously-hidden conspiracies, and merely repeating already-known facts (albeit with some salty language)?

                • Tracey

                  See my response to Pukey, you guys are either by accident or design completely misunderstanding and representing the legal defintion of public interest in relation to publishing.

                • framu

                  pretty sure theyve figured out they would be voting for “internet mana” bob

                  it is their name after all

            • Tracey

              as long as you understand what “public interest” means. I am not sure you do.

              For example, emails between Slater and his wife have not been published
              Emails outlined a deliberate strategy to attack someone’s character through blackmail to bring about a political result are

              Emails to and from Slater’s children have not been published
              Emails indicating Slater is paid by various corporations to attack and harrass and bully opponents of those business are

              Emails to and from Slater’s lawyer/accountant haven’t been published
              Emails from the Minister of Justice indicating an unhealthy interest in smearing and bullying, assisting with OIAs, turning a blind eye tot he possible illegal handling of police evidence is.

              I am not surprised you seem confused about this legal concept of “public interest” given where you go for your education on this and other topics.

        • weka

          “You have a political party paid for by a convicted crim that might just hold the balance of power and you have these type of ructions going on so yeah the public should know whats going so as to make an informed decision on who to vote for”

          As opposed to a party run by a yet-to-be convicted crim, who uses other parties, with so little power that they can’t complain, to prop up his govt.

          What you call ‘ructions’ is most likely just robust disgreement and the process of working that out. Righties like you still don’t get that it’s possible to disagree and still work together cooperatively.

          • Puckish Rogue

            In NZ we have innocent until proven guilty although in certain cases Labour does want to change that

            So until such time as whoever you think is going to be convicted is convicted I suggest you sit down, have a nice cup of tead and calm yourself down 🙂

            • weka

              We also work on the premise that once convicted and time served that people are allowed to get on with their lives.

              You can’t have it both ways. Either you are going to be principled or you’re not.

              • Puckish Rogue

                True however past conduct is a pointer towards future performance

                • McFlock

                  $100billion crown debt here we come, then…

                • weka

                  “True however past conduct is a pointer towards future performance”

                  I guess that explains things, you are still behaving like you did when you were a child.

                • Tracey

                  No support from you for ACT then, or any party that will accept them, with 17% of their past MPs convicted for fraud or deceit crimes?

            • Tracey

              so you agree kim dotcom is so far innocent of all the charges he currently faces in NZ?

              Unlike ACT and Mr Garrett, Mr Dotcom has not hidden his past from any voter in NZ and all were known to NZ Govt when they ignored the official advice and granted him PR

              Glad we cleared that one up.

      • Rich 20.1.4

        Yes good question.

      • Rich 20.1.5

        Just one other thing though, bad language aside, there’s no democratic consensus there, just Harawira making demands, and although the sentiments are fine (personally I’d have weed and feed) I’d rather not have a tyrant on my side.

      • Tracey 20.1.6

        Stop that before PRs head explodes

    • Bearded Git 20.2

      Puckish-If Jason Ede won’t front how can any comment you make be taken seriously?

      Where is Jason Ede?

      • Puckish Rogue 20.2.1

        Puckish-If Jason Ede won’t front how can any comment you make be taken seriously?

        – Have you been smoking what philip ures been smoking?

        Where is Jason Ede?

        – In hiding so as not to answer questions would be my guess

        • tricledrown

          PR you have been watching Jason Edes pornography collection with Cameron Slater!

          • Puckish Rogue

            If you must smoke dope at least wait until the afternoon

            • tricledrown

              PR ok so you want everyone to follow your example but you forgot to follow your own parsimonious rousing and are suffering short term memory loss!
              Scoring an own goal!

      • Rich 20.2.2

        I’d like to know who he is. His bio is a bit light.

        A couple of reports from the 90s for TVNZ/CNN and that’s about it. Is he American by any chance, has anybody heard him speak?

  20. CnrJoe 21

    was he being truthfully honest?

    5.40sec in

  21. One Anonymous Bloke 22

    Looks like Guyon’s been thinking about ethics.

    He even gets one of those WEIRD* pseudo-scientists to comment.

    *western, educated, industrialized, rich and democratic.

    • crocodill 22.1

      New research Questioned? It’s been questioned for more than fifty years:

      Hannah Arendt:

      “” In her reporting of the 1961 Adolf Eichmann trial for The New Yorker, which evolved into Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil (1963), she coined the phrase “the banality of evil” to describe the phenomenon of Eichmann. She raised the question of whether evil is radical or simply a function of thoughtlessness, a tendency of ordinary people to obey orders and conform to mass opinion without a critical evaluation of the consequences of their actions and inaction. She was sharply critical of the way the trial was conducted in Israel. She also was critical of the way that some Jewish leaders, notably M. C. Rumkowski, acted during the Holocaust. This caused a considerable controversy and even animosity toward Arendt in the Jewish community. Her friend Gershom Scholem, a major scholar of Jewish mysticism, broke off relations with her. Arendt was criticized by many Jewish public figures, who charged her with coldness and lack of sympathy for the victims of the Holocaust.

      Because of this lingering criticism, her book has only recently been translated into Hebrew. Arendt ended the book by writing:

      Just as you [Eichmann] supported and carried out a policy of not wanting to share the earth with the Jewish people and the people of a number of other nations—as though you and your superiors had any right to determine who should and who should not inhabit the world—we find that no one, that is, no member of the human race, can be expected to want to share the earth with you. This is the reason, and the only reason, you must hang.””

      Along with others, she arrives at the Duty enables Evil ball park. Also has little good to say about ideology. One of the problems of psychology meets politics is that individual psychology often smudges into organisational and organisational is also political: many people wonder how “a person” can do anything so horrible as XYZ, but they are no longer looking at an individual – the case study is no longer “Real”. It becomes an undifferentiated inspection of the imaginary projected onto the individual without filtering out the influence of the group. It is really seriously complex work to find any sort of clarity.

      • Tracey 22.1.1

        Which is why many make the comparison to this govt, your comments in bold, but get shut down by squeals of godwin.

        No one is saying key is bent on exterminating certain portions of society when they make the comparison, imo, but thecmethod of indoctrination, propaganda is frighteningly similar and dirty politics is scary in terms of just how duped many are.

        “…, a tendency of ordinary people to obey orders and conform to mass opinion without a critical evaluation of the consequences of their actions and inaction ”

        By equating hitler exclusively with evil, it makes people believe you are born evil, so therefore good peope can never do evil or bad things, which, imo, is nonsense.

        • crocodill

          Indeed, Godwin Law it is not, Eichmann was not Hitler, Hitler was not all the issues of WW2, and what she studied was not an examination of Nzi-Germany for the sake of Nzi-Germany. She studied people, as individuals, and in general. That the context of WW2 happened in her lifetime could not have been foreseen or avoided. Otherwise the argument must be: Anything learned during the years 1937 – 1946 must be discounted as Godwin Law and therefore ignored. It would be impossible for her to study anything if she approached it as, “Eichmann was a member of groupX, so all groupX are bad”. She was concerned at the way he was scapegoated for the actions of the many – and she couldn’t do that unless she had given up her duty to the goals of her identity group. That there, is the cost of integrity.

          In the context of the radio “interview” it seems to me the problem and possible solution is this:

          The “interview” was a reply to the now common argument (now even propagated by psychotherapists no less!) that only psychopaths/sociopaths/evil can vote National when the results show increase of poverty, deprivation, greed, illnesses etc etc.

          The point is, are the “people” who vote acting as themselves? The line seems blurred when viewed with prejudice, but it is very clear when viewed scientifically.

          The study of psychology is not, and even philosophy does not have as it’s end, a collection of ideas to use as dysfunctional political weapons for partisan groups to bludgeon each other over the metaphorical head. Both disciplines scratch their way toward understanding and truth, not malicious fragmentation of individuals and groups.

          Anyone concerned that they might be called “Evil” for voting for the interests of their identity group would be better off asking themselves, “Why is it so important that I be thought of, or that I consider myself, as good or responsible?” That there would be real personal responsibility in action, and likely to change more lives and indirectly the way people vote than the escalating misuse of research into human motivations.

          • Tracey

            Many people genuinely believe we are voting solely on what “we think” and dismiss very quickly the notion that they/we/I are being pushed toward certain viewpoints by cleverly constructed strategies.

            Companies spend money on all kins of strategies from ads to hotbuttons, and not without good reason.

            Manipulation tends to be clever and under our radars.

            • crocodill

              In addition to that, the influence of our up-bringing and culture and even the influence of anything we see that is “not us” creates a identity that is not ourselves. By the age of seven, there is very little left of any particular child’s individuality or ability to independently interpret their world. It happens subtly, mostly without malice, without conscious strategy, and just gets piled layer upon layer. It is the error that comes from pursuing what is “right” or “what works” and trusting only in method. Two wrongs may not make a right, but two rights almost always lead to many wrongs…. the road to hell is paved with unqualified slogans. So it does not surprise me that fully grown adults can get really quite old, and still defer entirely to something not themselves, or relevant, when deciding serious issues.

              The scary thing, if we stand right back and talk long term strategy, and forget the weezing, crying or numb silence of children subject to the effects of poverty, is that it does not matter, overall. If National win again, a sudden increase in the depravity will only cause an equal rejection from large portions of the population against the policies of the right and the greater system. People will die, but not in vain. The system will break down. People will begin to locate themselves again “via negetiva”. The question is whether you or I could stand there and purposely neglect our responsibility to act as our emotions or conscience dictated in an effort to be Zen about it all. I don’t think I could, but at least it means that the imbalance we see in our country now cannot be maintained.

              • Tracey

                There was an interesting stufy in the US of employer practices according to grouping

                Black men hired more black men and women (of any colour) than white employers
                Women (of any colour) hired more black men and women than either other group
                White men hired the least black men and women of the three groups.

                So on the face of it some groups are able to set aside the “not us” mentality to a greater extent than other groups.

                Wish I could locate the study, tried but can’t seem to make my search terms turn it up.

      • Chooky 22.1.2

        Interestingly Hannah Arendt was a long time lover of Martin Heidegger


        • Chooky

          again interestingly… Gershom Scholem was very much influenced by Heidegger, if not a follower of Heidegger at one stage , and wrote his thesis on gnosis under the supervision of Heidegger.

  22. Potato 23

    While my thoughts go out to all affected by the tragic event that occurred in Ashburton last week, I am horrified that it is being used to turn our country into a fascist state. Anyone who has had difficulties in dealings with either WINZ, ACC, IRD, EQC, etc and got a bit ‘heated’ has the potential to be visited by the police. (and lets face it, its a large group) I am appalled by this story. Note that the fellow interviewed was found NOT GUILTY of making a threat by the High Court.


    • Puckish Rogue 23.1

      Maybe you should visit a fascist state to see what one is actually like

      • tricledrown 23.1.1

        Punkish Rogue we don’t need to visit when we have Keys henchman ,the likes of you putting the jackboot in trying to undermine democracy !
        aye Piffling Rodent!Pathetic Raver!
        When are those less than the cost of living tax cuts!

      • Potato 23.1.2

        No thanks, but I will defend democracy and exercise my freedom of speech to ensure that my grandchildren don’t have to live in one.

      • CrashCart 23.1.3

        And I am sure that all facist states sprung into life without going through early warning periods. Perhaps if people had pointed out that things were going the wrong early on they wouldn’t have been facist states.

        Maybe you should visit the real world where identifying worrying trends is the best way to stop them turning into dangerous ones.

        • Puckish Rogue

          Bollix, the problem with lefties like you is that you want NZ to be a fascist state so you can protest to your hearts content (the 81 protest syndrome)

          Except that NZ is a fairly benign state the envy of most of the world

          • Tracey

            I think most people now think that if ms collins is chosen to lecture thechinese on censorship we are in bigger trouble than you want to see. Your refusal to view material that challenges your beliefs is telling.

          • mac1

            Puckish Rogue, I’m interested to see you use the the qualification “fairly” when using the word ‘benign’ to describe the NZ state. Does this ‘fairly” have the meaning of ‘justice’ or is it a qualifier meaning it is ‘partly ‘ benign?

            I ask this because this use of language is like John Key’s tricky use of language, and secondly, having had my little dig, since I am sure it is the second, I’m interested in what you don’t think is benign in Godzone? What is not to be envied? What part of the world does not envy us?

            • Puckish Rogue

              I use fairly as most people would accept it I guess, are we the very best no 1 country…probably not but we’re certainly in the top 10 IMHO

      • joe90 23.1.4

        Well NZ is starting to resemble Joh Bjelke-Petersen’s Queensland – a state led by an authoritarian with a questionable financial background and dodgy personal associations who disregarded heritage, people and the environment to satisfy “white shoe brigade” demands for taxpayer contributions to irrigation, casino and conference centre developments while using organs of the state to further his own political ends.

      • Tracey 23.1.5

        Maybe you could study the concepts of slippery scale and placed on a continum.

    • bad politics 23.2

      ” But the move has infuriated Auckland resident Michael Cruickshank after two officers turned up on his doorstep at lunchtime on Friday.
      Cruickshank, who suffered back injuries and nearly lost a hand in a building site accident in 1995, has been in a lengthy battle with ACC.
      The department has paid him more than $150,000 in reparations for wrongly stopping his weekly compensation payments.
      During his battle for compensation, which he is still being paid as he remains unable to work, ACC staff accused him of making a threat to kill.
      He was subsequently found not guilty in a High Court trial in 2010.
      He says he has never threatened violence, and has not been into an ACC office in eight years.
      “The jury believed me because I did not hold back. I told them every ounce of the truth.”
      That his name was handed to police by ACC was a continuation of false claims against him, he says. “

      • Tracey 23.2.1

        Kudos to him

        • weizguy

          No kudos. I have personally been threatened with violence by Mr Cruickshank.
          He asked me if I would like him to “terminate [me] permanently” (or very similar).

          • Tracey

            if we follow the attitude of our leader, its nothing, everyone is doing it…

            I am being churlish I know but when we have a leader who lies with impunity, associates and relies on others who threaten to kill, to smear, to lie about, you have to expect others will adopt his attitude.

            Leadership is not about saying “meh”

            I hope you registered a complaint with your ACC bosses and the police.

            • weizguy

              I think you’ve missed the point. The guy regularly threatens staff. He’s regularly abusive. Please don’t suggest that I, or any other people who have been subjected to his abuse (or threats) have any role in his behaviour.

              • Tracey

                Please re read my response. I clearly wrote that i hope you have reported it to the police and your bosses.

                I was also suggesting the leader of our country bears responsibility for the behaviour he publically accepts and endorses. He is a liar and collins and others are bullies.

                Peopke dont have direct access to those targets.

                Of course cruikshank is accountable for his actions hence i hoped you reported him to bosses and police.

                Stuff like this is NOT one dimensional.

                • weizguy

                  It certainly was reported.

                  I’m not suggesting it’s one dimensional, I’m just taking offence at the Mr Cruickshank someone deserves kudos for threatening anyone.

                  I think politicians should be judged for their behaviour. I don’t think one person’s behaviour should provide any cover or justification for threats. We shouldn’t expect people to follow bad behaviour. It should upset us when they do. Hardly a one-dimensional view.

                  • Tracey

                    Kudos for him standing up to ACC and the subsequent charges. I know how hard it can be for people to fight ACC or WINZ when the policy on high shifts to put obstacles in the way of people challenging stuff.

                    certainly wasnt offering him kudos if he has threatened to kill people.

                    Again, I am saying stuff never happens in a vacuum (hence the one dimensional comment). Having multiple aspects to something is not the same as excuse people from consequences of their actions.

                    hence I can be sorry for those who lost loved ones at Ashburton and still wonder if there might be other aspects underlying that horrible action (might not be too).

                    • weizguy

                      The guy doesn’t deserve any kudos. I suspect we violently AGREE on issues of causation vs excuse, but this guy is not the poster child for the fight against the man.

                      As for the devil’s work (below), I have a different conception of public service.

                  • adam

                    If you do the devils work, you need to be ready to be treated as a minion.


  23. Conversation on Duncan Garner’s Twitter feed:

    “Lab effectively lost the election when it changed its rules to have leader chosen mostly by activists & unions.”

    “You mean when Labour democratised its leader selection.”

    “Is that how they marketed it. Very clever!”

    “Unlike your comment.”

    “Lol! Chg may have resonated with the brothers & sisters, but it’s sure turning off the ordinary voter.”

    “What’s an ordinary voter?”

    ” I suppose one who’s 52% National and only 23% Labour!”

    “You mean someone who has a split personality and isn’t quite 100%?”

    “Nice one”

  24. Ffloyd 25

    Absolutely brilliant portrait of John key on trade me. Called ‘A relaxed portrait of John key smoking’ The description by the artist is awesome. Nails him. Bidding up to 920.00.

  25. yeshe 26

    Stuff reporting this announcement detail:

    Monday, September 15: The day New Zealand and the world finds out what John Key, the National Government and Hollywood don’t want you to know.

    Join Kim Dotcom, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and author Glenn Greenwald, international human rights lawyer Robert Amsterdam and Wikileaks founder Julian Assange at 7pm on Monday, September 15 at the Auckland Town Hall for The Moment of Truth – an event that will present vital information to voters about Prime Minister John Key, the National Government and the sordid workings of Hollywood ahead of the general election.

    The elite panel of guests and experts will lift the lid on the New Zealand Government’s involvement in spying, mass surveillance and more at this unprecedented event.

    WHAT: The Moment of Truth
    WHO: Kim Dotcom, Glenn Greenwald, Robert Amsterdam and Julian Assange
    WHERE: Auckland Town Hall
    WHEN: Monday, September 15, at 7pm


    • Tiger Mountain 26.1

      Slippery the Prime Minister is not controlling this narrative! and the media lackeys are not either.

      US imperialism has long had deputy sheriffs in Australia, NZ, Canada and England during the fall out of the old cold war. And the state forces snooping apparatus has had serious mission creep for some time now–corporate affairs are firmly SIS and GCSB and Five Eyes and NSA and FBI business.

      Hollywood and Warner Bros snaffled $100 mill of kiwi taxpayers loot and our parliament passed the Hobbit Enabling Act to union bust the film industry. So it would be good if the Dotcom meeting can conclusively connect some of these dots.

      Do enough New Zealanders want an independent foreign policy?

      • yeshe 26.1.1

        well, we are still nuclear free!! and no-none is stupid enough to challenge it again since Brash had his pants taken down by it !

    • karol 26.2

      That announcement isn’t at the Stuff link.

      • yeshe 26.2.1

        I think it is .. you have to wait for it all to open and then scroll down .. it was posted at 10.04 and is still there.

        The intro to the Stuff page is instantly there which is what you are seeing I think .. then a whole lot opens up underneath .. it’s odd, but it is there.

        • karol

          Oh, it’s a copy of the KDC press release, posted by Tracy Watkins. thanks.

          I’m not holding my breath for this. I imagine it’ll be some sort of contestable evidence, presented with a lot of razmataz, and will just serve to give IMP some publicity in the days before the election.

          Greenwald, Assange, etc are likely to have something significant to say about the role of GCSB in 5 Eyes. But I doubt if it’ll really make Key look terribly bad in the eyes of his supporters.

          • yeshe

            I still have hope for this !!! So far Dotcom has not been shown or proven to have lied about anything ever in NZ even in the courts … so I am keeping my hope warm !

            • karol

              I hate being built up for something, only to be disappointed. Dirty Politics has been so energising partly because if was so unexpected. I doubt KDC’s big reveal will trump that.

              • yeshe

                your doubt; my hope ! let’s see …

                • Chooky

                  yeshe +100..i have great hope!..with that crowd! (the only one missing is the one stuck in Russia…Edward Snowden)

                  this will be the Meet OF THE YEAR!…the one to go down in history (like Germaine Greer flying in way back when to liberate women and the word “bullshit”!)

                  ….it will be a MUST attend or WATCH or FOLLOW!!!

                  Go Internet MANA !…

    • karol 26.3

      KDC will be streaming the event:

      Kim Dotcom, Glenn Greenwald, Robert Amsterdam
      Plus Special Guests

      Auckland Town Hall
      15th of September 2014
      Doors 6pm. Starts 7pm.
      Free Entry. First in First Served.

      And streaming from http://kim.com

      And, at about the same time WO is reporting that he and/or Sean Plunkett will be reporting that KDC lied.

      • yeshe 26.3.1

        thx for the streaming link.

        omg — Plunkett and WO together ? How does this man have any credibility left ? I guess Key is going to throw everything he can at this. Wouldn’t even surprise me if we have a major power blackout in Auckland central .. House of Cards anyone ?

      • Tracey 26.3.2

        Lied about what?

        If plunket cared about lies he could have made a great living covering Key’s lies for the last seven years…

    • Clemgeopin 26.4


      Dotcom has said his announcement would have a bigger impact than Nicky Hager’s book, Dirty Politics.
      Kim Dotcom has released further details of his “moment of truth” announcement that the Internet Party founder says will turn the election on its head.

      In a statement today, the Internet Party said the event on Monday “will present vital information to voters about Prime Minister John Key, the National Government and the sordid workings of Hollywood ahead of the general election”.

      “The elite panel of guests and experts will lift the lid on the New Zealand Government’s involvement in spying, mass surveillance and more at this unprecedented event.”

      The party confirmed journalist and author Glenn Greenwald, who published NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden’s evidence of mass surveillance, and Wikileaks founder Julian Assange would appear.

      Assange will presumably appear by video link as he is holed up in the Ecuadorian embassy in London in a bid to avoid extradition to Sweden, where he faces allegations of rape and sexual assault made by two women. No charges have been laid but authorities want to question him.

      International human rights lawyer Robert Amsterdam will also feature at the event, to be held in the Auckland Town Hall.

      Dotcom signalled the announcement at the beginning of Internet-Mana’s national roadshow in July.

      He said he would produce evidence backing his claims of political interference relating to the extradition case against him and that showed Key knew about him sooner than Key admitted.

      Dotcom has said his announcement would have a bigger impact than Nicky Hager’s book, Dirty Politics.


      • karol 26.4.1

        The topic is one of my interests – Hollywood and the spying etc. I will be interested to hear what they have to say.

        I tend to feel KDC is over-hyping this though. i think there maybe some significant stuff to follow up on, but not the killer blows KDC is promising.

        • Puckish Rogue

          I agree (surprisingly)

          • Tracey

            You wont watch or read it though will you pukish rogue?

            • Puckish Rogue

              I’m sure I’ll read all about it on here

              • Tracey

                That’s the thing though… you only read stuff that you assume in advance supports you view.

                Far better to watch it yourself, form your own view and then you don’t have to rely on others here or anywhere to form a solid view.

                Do you reckon you will read about here or go to WO first for his view (or the view of whoever he is cutting and pasting on behalf… he’s probably trying to email Warners now to get paid to do a smear piece… or has already been doing it.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Its from hager so its already biased

                  • Tracey

                    DotCom’s “event” is from Hager??? You need to post some evidence of that Pukey.

                    Bias doesn’t matter to you though,… you avidly read Slater who is VERY biased as well as paid for some of his misinformation and character assassination. He is also pretends he wrote something when he has just cut and paste a paying client. I wonder why he thinks he needs to lie to you, such an unswaying acolyte?

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      He doesn’t pretend to not be biased, I know exactly where hes coming from and so can judge accordingly

                      Its others who prefess to be neutral when they clearly arn’t that bothers me

                    • Tracey

                      When you say you know he is biased does that mean you also know he lies?

                      If he is openly biased why would he need to pretend to be posting something as himself when it’s from someone else paying him to do it. Can you show me where he has made that clear in the past that you can expect that from him?

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Go check his website out

                    • Tracey

                      I stopped reading him a long time ago and will not read him again unless he is fully open about whether he is posting as himself, on behalf of someone else (paid ) posting on behalf of someone else(unpaid) and stops attacking people in such a viscious way.

                      I also rather enjoy reading sites where the commenters don’t use words such as c*&^ liberally.

                      Can you tell me how I can tell if he has posted something he wrote or something he says he wrote but was paid to cut and paste from someone else?

                      In short, you have no evidence that Hager is responsible for Kim Dotcom’s “event” next Monday and you don’t know why he thinks he has to lie to you or you don’t believe he is lying to you to enable you to hold onto your beliefs.

                  • emergency mike

                    “Its from hager”

                    How do you figure that PR guy? Or is that just the sound of your brain farting?

                    “so its already biased”

                    Also how do you figure that PR guy? Is it because he wasn’t ‘fair and balanced’ enough to expose Labour’s version of Slater and their abuse of government power for political advantage and smear campaigns run through their Slater proxy? It seems a bit of a tough criticism when those things don’t actually exist.

                    So hager bad because biased, but Slater biased but dats ok. You still read WO nah but coz it’s ok because he doesn’t hide his bias. Even though he doesn’t tell you who his posts are really written by. Fruit loop anyone?

                    So if you know WO is biased why have you been coming here repeating his/their spin lines for ages? Hmm, actually I think I’ve already answered my own question. PR guy.

  26. yeshe 27

    And Vernon Small actually calls it as he sees it, for once :


    OPINION: John Key must think we came down in the last shower.

    After days banging on about the fine detail of Labour’s capital gains tax policy National has released its ‘‘tax cut’’ plan with about as much detail as throwing paint at a barn door ……..

  27. Anne 28

    Fringe party policies ‘mad’, risk to NZ – economist.

    I think we can safely assume he is talking principally of ACT and The Conservatives.

    • yeshe 28.1

      but wouldn’t it have been clear and oh, so useful if he said so ?

    • Paul 28.2

      Not according top crazed commentator Larry Lackwit Williams.
      As usual he saw this as a description of the Grrens.

    • greywarbler 28.3

      Know your economists.

      Shamubeel was born in Bangladesh. He migrated to New Zealand with his family in 1993 after living in Samoa for three years. He grew up in Lincoln, Canterbury and attended the local high school and university. He graduated with a Bachelor of Commerce with Honours in Economics. He is also a qualified Chartered Financial Analyst, a premier international qualification.

      Worked at Statistics New Zealand, and ANZ Bank in Wellington and Melbourne after graduating from university. He was the New Zealand economist and financial analyst covering the property sector for Goldman Sachs JBWere – a global investment bank in Auckland.

      Because of his cultural background he is able to work with Middle Eastern clients too.
      A man for all seasons. He has written a book advising us how to do things right called Growing Apart.
      In Google this has a heading NZ has zombie towns that need to close — economist

  28. yeshe 29

    I wish I had the money to take a full page ad in both Herald and SST and simply publish Blip’s list of Key’s lies.

    Ideas anyone ?

    HoS $9000

    SST $20 K

    • @ yeshe..

      ..u cd try crowdfunding it..

      ..find out the cost..then ask..

      ..it is a good ldea..to publish that litany of lies..

      ..just the publishing of it wd garner media attention..

      ..to those lies..

      ..and just how fucken many there are of them..

      ..(i wd contribute to such a fund/idea..)

      ..and if anyone has access to k dotcom..how about asking him..?..)

      ..that is such a valuable resource that blip has built..

      ..it wd be a shame if it were not used during this campaign..

      ..if not now..when..?

      • yeshe 29.1.1

        @phillip .. just posted approx costs .. would you think just go for one or both ? if just one, which one ? thx

        so little time … wd hv to be booked asap to make this weekend … maybe cd plan for Herald the following Wednesday ?

        let’s see if anyone else posts ..

    • greywarbler 29.2

      @ yeshe 11.14
      You could run off a few – and put them up where there are public noticeboards that are available, and even where they can sit for a while without covering up other more regular signs.

      It could be good to put up a few with a note at the bottom to look for Numbers 10-100 on other bulletin boards around. It would give the vandals and NACT supporters something to do to hunt them down! A great paperchase. It could be hard to get them out there.

      I thought of running some off and just leafletting them in letterboxes round certain streets. Which letter boxes though? The better suburbs don’t want to know. The poorer ones there may be no room when they are stuffed with glossy advertising spilling out. But some would be a start. I should force myself to do that.

      But just exposing the list of lies would be a brick wall of information too solid between the truth and people’s minds. Nothing would penetrate. It’s too massive and the mind would return to its default position after perhaps a brief shake.

      You probably won’t remember but there was an effort to get Rowling elected some years ago, with a big advertising campaign under Citizens for Rowling banner. It was an effort to get Nats out, I think Muldoon, and spelled out just what he was doing. But the sheeple reacted as if a nasty person was unfairly attacking this politician, who was just doing his best, and gave Rowling the cold shoulder (of lamb).

      Being told what is, can be uncomfortably to the myth-ridden, and testing to the cosy cliches. Too much information. Ugg.

  29. does anyone have any idea why labour would feel they would be unable to sell to the electorate..

    ..the idea/policy of a (small) financial transactions tax on inter-bank/financial-institutions transactions..?

    ..especially as treasury calculated this would raise the same amount of revenue as does gst..

    ..i am really puzzled..that in a time of those banksters taking record profits offshore..

    ..labour does not reach for this most obvious/easy tool..

    ..one that would give them enough revenue to end poverty..for starters..

    ..and this is not radical thinking..

    ..the eu is about to bring in an eu-wide f.t.t..

    .and some 22 oecd countries already have some form of a financial transactions tax..

    ..does anyone here from labour know if this has even been discussed..?

    ..and if not..why not..?

    ..how can labour not ‘sell’ this..?

    • crocodill 30.1

      Because they themselves do not want it. Labour makes the most bungled “sell” possible of the simplest most constructive of their policies. In reality they wouldn’t even have to sell it. Just “include it” and mumble here and there about it not effecting the average man etc etc and done. So in reality, someone they know intimately doesn’t want it.

      • phillip ure 30.1.1

        “.. So in reality, someone they know intimately doesn’t want it…”

        i agree..it isn’t an overlooking driven by any semblance of logic..

        .it is so bleeding obvious a thing to do..and so do-able..

        ..(fuck..!..u cd even package it by giving some of that tax raised back to the punters..!..

        ..but you wouldn’t need to..

        ..just point out:..’take from profiteering bankster bastards..use to fix what ails us..’

        ..visually-challenged-freddy cd sell that all day long..

        ..why the fuck can’t labour..?

  30. greywarbler 31

    Watching Ukraine developments? This piece by Chris Trotter is interesting. File it away for after the election if no time now. Seems the real deal. Informed commenters could add to it no doubt.

    • that piece from trotter is on the money..

      ..that is what has happened in ukraine..

      ..and interesting how it is noted that sincere middleclass demonstators are sucked in/used…

      ..the most recent example of that here was from those on the left who swallowed the cia-kool-ade..

      ..and supported the overthrow of gadaffi..

      ..who ultimately supported turning the most secular/stable of all the arab states..

      ..into the war-torn fundamentalist hellhole it now is..

      • Tiger Mountain 31.1.1

        Similarly there is much Western left support for Palestinians, that never has been and won’t be duplicated by the surrounding local dictators who do not want their own populations to get any ideas.

        That is the key in any liberation struggle, freedom from what to what.

  31. greywarbler 32

    I wanted to find out more about this jerk Gibson who used the Shylock term for a second time! What sort of electorate would pick someone like him and what was his background.
    I consider that the information supplied by Labour about their people, very poor. And in general there is not enough basic detail reliably available for any politicians.

    There should be a set list of information and then a two tiny sentences for the individual to state their passion or expertise.

    On Gibson –

    Steven Gibson
    Candidate for Rangitata
    Steven was born and raised in Timaru and his family has deep local roots dating back to the 1850’s. He is a local man taking up the banner of social and economic sustainability for Rangitata.

    I would like to know – how old, what line of education, where, all jobs and employment experienced, what interests, what special training that would enable political work, what projects involved with, partnered, children, broad concerns, vision for NZ and brief idea of most important initiative to reach vision.

    What is supplied at present is whatever waffle they choose to put. It isn’t good enough.
    If Steve Gibson’s main interest in life is fitness training by chasing his bulls around his paddock then I think we should be told. Then may be we would ascertain whether he has the nous to control loaded comments and restrain his language.

    Talking about language, so to speak. Hone is receiving critical comment for something he said in a private email to a supporter. How come these things get leaked? He uses strong language which I think he should tone down, but how come it gets out to everyone? Very undermining for him. Some sneak is around him making trouble.

  32. greywarbler 33

    Looking at Transport blg
    Better cities mean a wealthier New Zealand by Peter Nunns

    There is a piece on housing and income and where people choose to live and is there an anomaly from the data.
    There is a summary – In short, restrictions on population growth in productive places – i.e. large, relatively dense cities – force people to move to less productive places, and earn less.

    I don’t know if that is quite right.
    It appears that if restrictions on height in inner cities, and on density in the suburbs limit the provision of housing available, then it becomes dearer on a supply and demand basis. [I would think that if restrictions are too diminished then there would be the undesirable result of lots of low-rent slums as a likely corollary.]
    People do their sums and decide that it is better to move somewhere cheaper, even though the wages also are less than in their previous location. The reason that they move may have a number of factors besides merely housing and wages.

    This piece seems basically to be promoting Auckland and implying that desires to promote regional areas business and housing to limit Auckland’s growth is mistaken.
    But I may be mistaken. Prove it and explain why then.

  33. Puckish Rogue 34

    Hi, I am the Operations Manager for Pinnacle Steel and a part owner, we lease one of the old Hillside workshops, we employ 28 people.

    I challenged Cunliffe on this issue as I informed him all over the buildings were leased and where was this workshop to go (tv3 filmed this but didn’t put it on air).

    I got the “grasp this opportunity”.

    I said we don’t make trains we fabricate structural steel, then one of his union mates started asking the right questions.

    I asked why Labour would not have the common courtesy to inform us of their plan.

    Cunliffe replied “I can’t make an announcement before an announcement”.

    It is just vote grabbing, Curran came to see me and said Labour has been in talks with Kiwi Rail of the existing leases.

    It is none of Labour’s business, so why are they talking about my lease with Kiwi Rail?

    I had a my employees asking were their jobs safe now that Hillside was reopening?

    That’s real positive.

    Paul Hickey

    If anyones interested

    • Tracey 34.1

      Post the link pukey to avoid people saying you made it up.

      • Puckish Rogue 34.1.1

        Sorry the link is on the website of He Who Shall Not Be Named

        • Paul

          Always is.
          You don’t really have a wide and balanced source of news, do you?

        • emergency mike

          Is it Cameron Slater? The guy who’s just been outed as a major bullshit artist and shit-stirrer for hire? Why would any reasonable person continue to not only read such crap, but be one of his useful idiots by obediently spreading his crap around teh interwebs?

          Oh wait I think I know. PR guy.

      • alwyn 34.1.2

        That is a good idea of yours Tracey.
        Are you ever going to post the link I have been asking you for? That is the one that would justify your claim that Rupert Murdoch owns 30% of APN, and therefore 30% of the New Zealand Herald.
        You wouldn’t want me to think that you had just made it up would you?

        • Tracey

          Didnt know you had been asking. I dont always revisit every thread.

          i think I know the post you mean and I realise now I made a mistake (a genuine one), that was actually meant to read

          “The Irish company Independent News & Media has an approximately 30% stake in the company”

          “The Herald is now owned by APN News & Media, an Australian and New Zealand listed company whose largest shareholder is Ireland-based Independent News & Media.”

          If you revisit my post I did post the above relating to the 30% so you could see I had made a serious interpretation mistake

          • alwyn

            Thank you for correcting a mistake.
            I didn’t think that Murdoch had any interest in the Herald so I couldn’t see where it came from. Mistakes are easy. I make enough of my own.

    • wtl 34.2

      What a pointless comment. Obviously if the workshops were to reopen, there would be negotiations with any current leaseholders about possible options. And there is also obviously no point in starting such negotiations at this stage.

      Are you RWNJs really that bad at running a business that you run away crying as soon as the owner of the premises you are leasing wants to renegotiate terms or plans to use the premises for something else?

    • Molly 34.3

      Had a quick look for Paul Hickey, seems he is manager of the Pinnacle Steel workshops.

      Their website has them employing 21 staff based at Sturdee Street about 4km away from Hillside Road – and the workshops.
      “Pinnacle Steel Ltd now employs 21 plus staff and operates from its Sturdee Street workshop with a total floor area of 1800 sq. metres.”

      I think he is making a spurious claim – even if Pinnacle Steel is leasing part of the 500m long workshop.

      His attempt to divert from the discussion of reintroducing a training and procurement model using Hillside which has long-term benefits for NZers and NZ is typical of the quality of articles on Whaleoil.

    • tricledrown 34.4

      Once MacCraes gold mine closes hillside work shops will be pulled down if National get back in!

      • Puckish Rogue 35.1.1


        – Since Goffs admittided to Dirty Politics I expect a massive groundswell of condemnation for the left and cunliffe will show leadership by…ahh who’m I kidding the left will ignore it or claim its not as bad…

        • Potato

          Wow Puckish, spelling mistakes coming aplenty in your last few posts.
          Slow down on the G&T’s or whatever drug you’re using.

        • joe90

          He verbally objected and an official broke the law. So?.

          • Puckish Rogue

            A request was put in, legally, yet he didn’t like the recipient so put pressure on the official to delay the request

            • joe90

              so put pressure on the official

              A lie.

              The documents were to be released immediately until I challenged why the SIS was acting in the way he proposed.


              • Puckish Rogue

                Why challenge a perfectly legal request

                • joe90

                  Perhaps he suspected the apparatus of the state was being used illegally.

                  • Puckish Rogue

                    It was a legal request, he wanted it blocked because of who it was going to which is a massive breach of power wouldn’t you say

                    sorry I forgot, its different when the left do it

                    • joe90

                      he wanted it blocked

                      And you know this how? … oh, another lie.

                    • Tracey

                      I’m struggling to follow you, you are saying you 100% support what Goff did, right?

                      Goff has appeared before an Inquiry and made a sworn statement.

                      Can you remind me when Mr Key is appearing (without being called) to put his version on the record and in front of his God? Rememebr when he promised to answer questions the journalists forget to ask? This is one of those times.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Whether it was perfectly legal or not is already the subject of one inquiry. Your breathless display indicates your bias in that regard.

                  When the criminal Slater is sentenced you’ll still have your tongue up his arse. John Banks will be found not guilty because he’s not guilty, eh, trash.

    • PR : Why would anyone of any degree of intelligence and political nous believe a word that is said on Slaterbog? (sp. intended)

      Your nom de plume and usual style suggests you want to be seen as a sort of impish mischief maker, someone who is a step up from the usual crude red-baiting tactics of the ranting right. But when you post links like these, your mask slips and we see you are indeed a member of the Amygdala Brigade.

      BTW – confirmation bias is a feature of the low-effort thinking that’s typical of political conservatives. It’s a safety thing – they only register that which confirms what they already believe, never question those they have accepted as dispensers of the ‘truth’, and can become anxious and aggressive when their world view is challenged.

      It takes a lot of intellectual effort to step outside one’s comfort zones – and frankly, any person who has not bothered to read Hager’s book but still wants to assert the author is biassed, is taking low-effort thinking into the realms of insensibility.

    • Paul 35.3

      Whale OIl.
      Now that’s been proven to be a reliable source.

  34. McFlock 36

    bollocks, missed the reply tag.

    Since Goffs admittided to Dirty Politics I expect a massive groundswell of condemnation for the left and cunliffe will show leadership by…ahh who’m I kidding the left will ignore it or claim its not as bad…

    actually, given farrar’s associates I suspect most folks will wait for someone with a better reputation to make the allegation before even considering that it might be true.

    Someone like a used car salesman, maybe.
    Or one of those nice folks from microsoft technical support who phone to tell you that your computer is broken.

    • Puckish Rogue 36.1

      The links from scoop so you can protect your delicate little eyes

      • One Anonymous Bloke 36.1.1

        I don’t link to Slater’s blog. I use donotlink instead. I see the same drivel either way, so clearly my eyes aren’t as delicate as your notion of McFlock’s, and Slater gets nothing, which is the point.

        Your relentless excuses don’t launder him, they stain you.

      • McFlock 36.1.2

        you mean the link that said “kiwiblog” on mouse hover, you fucking tool?

  35. Richies McClaw 38

    I am concerned with David talking about his 3 party cabinet so confidently.

    Firstly, the bargaining position of the respective parties are unknown until the cards are dealt, so if there is a situation where NZF has a poor showing, then that effectively cuts Labour out of governing for another three years. I understand that David is trying to win back Labour voters from the Maori party, and i suspect that he will, but the question is just how many of these voters will come back, and if the impact it will make on Labours bottom line will compensate for the risk associated with cutting out a potential ally [and appeasing NZF]. I suspect that David played his hand as he has strong internal information that the Maori party are going with National and are simply positioning themselves as undecided to siphon off leftist votes, but the extent to which this is true effectively determines the wisdom of his decision. The effect that the rising influence of the Conservatives has on the Maori-National relationship is yet to be seen.

    Secondly, by placing his fate in the hands so firmly in the hands of NZF, he has given Winston a very strong bargaining position in any post-election talk, and is basically putting his chips all in with a person who is notoriously flakey and demanding, which not only undermines the stability of any coalition, but undermines the ability of the left-boc to put put its policy into action. David seems pretty certain that Winnie will be the Kingmaker, and that Winnie will go his way, when it isn’t certain.

    All in all it is a risky move, but i trust he analyzed all the details, it just seems really ballsy.

  36. Clemgeopin 39

    Judges Interim decision on Slater, National and Key’s attack dog:

    Blogger Cameron Slater had an overwhelming case for an interim injunction blocking the hacker Whaledump from leaking anything further to media, a High Court judge has ruled in a written judgment.

    Justice John Fogarty on Friday gave a verbal ruling on an interim injunction to stop media from revealing new information based on Slater’s allegedly hacked emails and Facebook messages.

    Slater, who runs the Whale Oil blog, took the action against Fairfax, APN and MediaWorks.

    Justice Fogarty published his written interim ruling today. A full hearing is due to be held tomorrow.

    A fourth ‘‘unknown person’’ was listed, referring to the person alleged to be in possession of the hacked emails and behind the Whaledump Twitter accounts that has been publishing Slater’s communications with PR agents, politicians and lobbyists.

    “The case for injunction against the hacker on an interim basis is overwhelming,” the judge wrote.

    “The common law knows no justification for breaking the law.”

    The judge said the cause of action against the hacker, whoever that person or persons are, is simple.

    The hacker got into Slater’s computer by guessing the password and took copies of information, his emails and social media accounts.

    Slater wanted common law remedies which are different to those in the Crimes Act.

    “There is no doubt at all that (Slater) has a serious argument that the unknown hacker has committed a wrong or tort against him, to which the common law will grant such remedies as can be practicably imposed.’’ The judge said taking the information from the computer was the same as entering private property and taking a person’s private papers.

    He said the torts were designed to preserve personal dignity, privacy, and the freedom of lawful conduct.

    “To my mind, these torts appeal to values which underpin the most ancient remedy of trespass, be it trespass to the person or trespass to property.”

    The case for granting an injunction was overwhelming.

    But there was a distinction between illegal conduct to obtain information which is released into the community, and subsequent orders by the courts as to the use of that information once it is in wider circulation.

    The judge said the courts balance the breach of law in the acquisition of the information, against the public interest in examining the information once it is in the public sphere.

    “The difficulties with this case are to address what, if any, remedies (Slater) has in respect of information now in the public sphere,” the judge said.
    Ad Feedback

    “But there is no difficulty in making an interim order restraining the hacker from committing further wrongs by releasing information, which very likely was obtained illegally, further into the community.”

  37. greywarbler 40


    Coalition for Better Broadcasting –
    Wellington protest against Dirty Politics

    Tomorrow at 12pm noon, Parliament steps, Wellington City

    Calling all Wellingtonions who are concerned about the issues raised in the Dirty Politics book and subsequent media. Please show your opposition to this style of politics tomorrow, Wednesday at this family friendly gathering and protest.

    Speakers include the CBB Chairperson, Dr Peter Thompson.
    More info is available on the Kiwis for Clean Politics Facebook page

  38. Dramaticus 41

    The are far too many of these so called proffessional educated successful aspirational yappers doin 2 5th of 5/8ths of f all about the real issues in this country like
    EDUCATION OF THE MAJORITY NOT THE MINORITY thats without class or racial barriers inserted by some psydo know all mart arse setting up a counter action to stop the statement in capitals being implemented something the ACT party is good at
    All the parts of society that contribute to Poverty like gambling, prostitution, alcoholism, violence, banks, advertising, credit cards, garbage sold as food, Supermarkets ,right wing politicians multinational corporates taking over our country, TPPA
    I could be here forever
    Cheer Up another day tomorrow

  39. Draco T Bastard 42

    Level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere surgesThe level of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere surged at its fastest rate in 30 years last year amid signs the world’s oceans and forests might not be storing the planet-warming gas as readily as they have in the past.
    Which, at this present moment in time, is rather disturbing.

  40. Draco T Bastard 43

    And can the MSM stop spreading the lies about there being tension between Internet Party and Mana. There isn’t any.

    • emergency mike 43.1

      Interesting that Harre reckons the source of this leaked email was WO. Was that just an off the cuff remark? Or is Slater’s 9th floor ‘tip line’ still, amazingly, active.

  41. tricle up 44

    The oceans are one of the most powerful forces on the planet it feeds us and produces oxygen,plankton are important to the long term health of the atmosphere as the worlds forests.The photosynthesis of the oceans tiny green plants account for about half of the carbon dioxide that plants remove from the atmosphere each year satellite data is suggesting plankton is in decline .National is out of touch on economic issues, these are important, what we all want is a balance. best en devours guys and i hope you achieve your goals.

    • tricledrown 44.1

      Thank for the the info the latest research says the oceans act like a climate shock absorber moderating the heat on the surface of the planet by storing excess heat deep in the ocean,But Mankind’s continuous and relentless abuse of our environment is now pushing the ocean beyond its capacity!

      • tricle up 44.1.1

        thank you tricle down…. the oceans acting as a stock absorbers is pretty much the essence of the matter covering the multitude of different sins or configurations as we dial up more events…

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