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Open mike 09/09/2015

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 9th, 2015 - 89 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeOpen mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

89 comments on “Open mike 09/09/2015 ”

  1. miravox 1

    Another Suicide by police?

    I guess it’s too soon to say there is a rise in these tragedies, or if it is an indication of a rise in suicide generally. What surprised me was that ordinary police shot him dead, not armed offenders. If this is the case, are police informally armed these days and are these officers fully trained in negotiations with unstable, suicidal individuals with guns?

    • JanM 1.1

      I would guess that in a situation like the one in the Hutt that the police’s first priority was the safety of the ‘innocent bystanders’. In a situation like this they don’t have much ‘wiggle room’.
      I always understood that many police cars carried guns in the glovebox and have for a long time

    • Undecided 1.2

      If events unfolded as reported by the media (and thats a big if) then the police did the right thing in stopping this person when they did

      • JanM 1.2.1

        I think an onlooker took video of it, so they’ll have to tell all

        • Undecided 1.2.1.1

          The media describe the victim as weilding a high-powered rifle, I’d like to know what a high-powered rifle is or is it merely the media trying to make the story sound even more dramatic…which probably just answers my own question

          • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.1.1

            I’d say that it was the MSM trying to make it all sound more dramatic. 99% of people wouldn’t know the difference between a 0.22 and a .308

            • Undecided 1.2.1.1.1.1

              I googled the difference between high powered and low powered and there does seem to be specific reasons to call a rifle high powered but how the media could tell from some grainy pics is beyond me but then controversy creates cash i suppose

              • Naki man

                That’s just the media isn’t it making things more dramatic but at close range even a .22 will do the job.

          • maui 1.2.1.1.2

            I’m guessing they’re meaning a hunting rifle (the bangs sounded very loud on the news anyway). I don’t know much about firearms but like a .303, not a .22 which you’d use to hunt rabbits.

      • arkie 1.2.2

        I think with the number of witnesses that there were it’s hard to fault the police response. However the Police Association spokesman is using this to counter the government and the police’s own stats on the reduction in violent crime which I find objectionable, scaremongering and calling for a constantly armed police force.

      • The Chairman 1.2.3

        Yet, Undecided, it was reported he was about to put the gun down but then he was shot.

        http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/71872891/upper-hutt-shooting-man-was-close-to-giving-himself-up

        • Undecided 1.2.3.1

          Well more like someones opinion they were going to put the gun down unfortunatel which means he was probably still holding the rifle in a threatening manner

          • The Chairman 1.2.3.1.1

            Your logic escapes me.

            A witness within meters from the gunman claimed he was about to put the gun down and you automatically assume otherwise?

            Holding a rifle in a threatening manner is not the same as beginning to place it down.

            It will be interesting to see what any recorded footage shows.

            • maui 1.2.3.1.1.1

              They released helicopter footage last night of “efforts to save gunman’s life”, the video only shows them performing CPR after the shooting, not the moments leading up to the shooting. Funny they’re happy to release video that gives a positive image, rather than the controversial stuff..

            • Undecided 1.2.3.1.1.2

              Well my logic is that the witnesses are stating opinion not facts ie

              The gunman killed by police was close to giving himself up before he was shot, a witness says.

              How do they know he wasn’t about to continue shooting indiscriminately

              “He said there was another staff member outside talking to the gunman, so I called her. She felt he was ready to give it up.”

              Thats opinion

              “He was about to put the gun down but then he was shot. They were doing resuscitation right outside the shop.”

              He was about to put the gun down (maybe he was maybe he wasn’t) which means he was still holding it

              But really its more the media twisting stories for their own benefit

              • The Chairman

                A witness sighting him lowering his weapon is not the same as their opinion on his intentions, which, in this case, coincides with what they saw.

                • Undecided

                  Unfortuantely for the victim he didn’t lower the weapon earlier in which case he would still be alive today

                  On the face of it the police proably did the right thing but hopefully the ensuing investigation will shed more light on the matter

                  • The Chairman

                    If he was lowering his weapon before he was shot (which an eye witness clearly claims) it raises some serious questions for the police.

                    The fact you believe the police probably did the right thing is merely your opinion. But it’s not based on what was reported as you incorrectly claimed.

                    • The lost sheep

                      This doesn’t sound much like giving up to me….

                      “Philipson said a group of those who escaped went to the other side of the road and watched events unfold.

                      “He stood out there in the middle of the road there with his rifle … One of the police with a dog came at him and he had a shot at the dog.”

                      The police dog managed to reach the man and bit onto his leg, Philipson said.

                      As the man tried to fire at the dog, police fired a single shot at him, which brought him to the ground. “He went down.”

                    • The Chairman

                      @ Lost Sheep

                      Reports are conflicting, thus can’t be used to substantiate the assertion being made. Which is the point being being made and my contention with Undecided’s initial comment.

                    • The Chairman

                      @ Lost Sheep

                      Additionally, setting a police dog upon him is not considered a negotiation tactic. It’s an attack.

                      Therefore, in such a highly volatile situation it’s only natural to assume he would respond in kind.

                    • The lost sheep

                      in such a highly volatile situation it’s only natural to assume he would respond in kind.

                      To someone who thought that walking into a public area and starting shooting with a high powered rifle was a ‘natural’ thing to do, then it might also seem ‘natural’ that continuing to shoot when the Police are very obviously trying to stop you was going to improve your outcomes.

                      But for me, it sounds completely nuts.

                      On the other hand, given the number of potential victims directly in the immediate line of fire of someone who was actively shooting, I would have thought it completely ‘natural’ for the Police to try and resolve that threat as rapidly as possible….

                    • The Chairman

                      @ Lost Sheep

                      Clearly walking into a public area and firing a firearm was a indication he was unbalanced, not natural. Nice attempted twist though.

                      Therefore, it’s only natural to assume that further provoking him would result in him responding in kind.

                      It’s yet to be established if lives were in further danger, especially if he was lowering his weapon as a witness claims.

                • Naki man

                  So he was lowering his rifle at the same time as he was shooting at the police dog that was about to bite his leg, sounds like bollocks to me. The only person that I feel sorry for is the police officer that shot him.

          • maui 1.2.3.1.2

            He might have been about to give up to the woman, but the police only knew that he was firing shots down the street and inside a building with a lot of people around. I think it could have ended up with no loss of life, but hard to blame the police for acting.

            • The Chairman 1.2.3.1.2.1

              Irrespective of the law, it should be common knowledge that brandishing a firearm (or what is perceived to be a firearm) is likely to lead to one being shot.

              • The lost sheep

                It is common knowledge?
                Not the first time by any means that has been demonstrated to be the case?

              • maui

                There has been lots of cases of people carrying and showing imitation firearms in public and not getting shot. Armed Offenders get called and try to diffuse the situation. I think it depends on the attitude of the offender on whether the police shoot or not, are they being threatening or relinquishing. In this case it appears the guy was doing both at times.

                I’m glad our police aren’t trigger happy like in the US, because we shouldn’t be killing people unnecessarily and I think our police show good judgement on when to use force or not.

                • The Chairman

                  And there have been cases of people being shot. There was one some years back where a metal pipe was mistaken for a firearm.

                  There was also the baseball bat incident.

                  The police are people just like the rest of us, therefore, you can’t blame them for not wanting to take the risk, thus the public need to take this into account.

                • The Chairman

                  Furthermore, police often warn of the dangers (people may actually end up being shot) of brandishing imitation firearms.

                  • maui

                    Sure, although over the years I’ve heard many more news stories of people showing BB guns and firing in public and AOS being called out without firing, rather than offender shot dead armed with BB gun.

                    In this case, the offender was a danger to the public early on and it appears to have been a highly volatile situation. I think it would be hard for the police to switch from that mindset to one of him not being a threat unless he was face down on the road with his hands behind his head. Just my take.

                    • The Chairman

                      When human nature is removed, the police are meant to act professionally and within the law.

                      An evaluation of the threat should have been (thus most likely would have been) taken at the time of the shooting. What the genuine threat level was at the time of the shooting is yet to be established, thus to early to point blame.

  2. Ad 2

    Pretty stark hearing Sharon Zollner from ANZ talking (National Radio this morning) about the “Truckometer” stalling for 6 quarters in a row. (The “truckometer” is a measure of freight movements, and is a pretty good approximation of economic activity).

    Her view was that the economy is stalling, that we are exceedingly vulnerable to the Chinese slowdown, and that GDP growth down to 0-2% increase makes our economy far more vulnerable to changes in sentiment.

    Here in Auckland it is incredibly easy to see the number of cranes on the horizon, hot new waterfront deals for luxury hotels, and think this is such a wonderful bubble we live in here.

    And – apart from what you don’t see in the rest of the country – the story of the economy for me is the number of people homeless and begging on our streets, squashed in garages, in our hospitals, doing labouring but preferring to live in a car (as seen in the Western Leader this week).

    When 6% unemployed goes to 7 and 8%, nothing will save Key.

    • BM 2.1

      Luckily for National there is no competition.

      Key wins by default.

      • Ad 2.1.1

        Key’s political competition is the economy, and he is losing.

        • BM 2.1.1.1

          Far more people trust Key with the economy than the Labour/Greens/NZ first combo.

          The economy could crash and burn and Key would still be first choice.

          • Ad 2.1.1.1.1

            Key has no rabbits to pull out of the hat anymore.
            He has no Lord of the Rings extravaganzas, Rugby World Cups, the Sky City development won’t show in the construction stats for ages, Christchurch rebuild has peaked, dairy is fucked for years while farmers recover, tax take is low, TPPA died. He’s got nothing (except the hope that Auckland’s real estate market is actually immortal).

            As for National vs Green-Labour coalition economic management trust, after 9 years it’s never about the alternative government, it’s about whether in the voters mind there is something so outstanding in a government that despite economic stagnation, they remain convinced the current lot are not stale and in need, as Michael Cullen said, of “Someone else’s turn to bat.”

            That is, as Sharon Zollner said above, 0-2% growth makes everyone far too vulnerable to sentiment.

            • BM 2.1.1.1.1.1

              Actually it’s about credibility, which is Labours problem, they have none.

              The way Labour has acted over the last 7 years has been abysmal, changing leaders and policy every 5 mins has destroyed the voters trust.

              They just don’t look like a party who has what it takes to successfully run a country anymore.

          • JanM 2.1.1.1.2

            Do you really believe all this BS, BM, or are you just bored and stirring for the fun of it?

          • dv 2.1.1.1.3

            BM current debt clock

            NZ$ 106,592,057,833

            • dv 2.1.1.1.3.1

              And in June 92,496,090,302

              Thus an INCREASE of 14 billion in 3 months

              NOTE an INCREASE of 14 billion in 3 mths!!!!!!!

          • Bearded Git 2.1.1.1.4

            @BM
            Key only has a 61-60 majority even where he was able to spin (lie) at the election that all was rosy in the economy. As more and more people see through Key and the economy tanks steadily towards 2017 Key and his revolting front bench will be in real trouble.

            I see his resignation in Autumn 2016-he hates losing.

    • Rosie 2.2

      “And – apart from what you don’t see in the rest of the country – the story of the economy for me is the number of people homeless and begging on our streets, squashed in garages, in our hospitals, doing labouring but preferring to live in a car”

      Yes, we do see it Ad. The rise in begging and homelessness in Wellington has been heartbreaking to witness. Any Wellingtonian can tell you how much this has risen in the last couple of years.

      I had a chat with a woman who was begging. You see her all the time down Lambton Quay. I was struck by her sense of dignity, her friendliness, her articulate speech, and wondered how the f*ck such a regular person who probably once had a job and a life ended up spending her days begging for food on the footpath.

      Not many people seem to care though. Perhaps exposing the stories of the the disappearing wealth and increasing debt of of the former middle classes, might be a factor in unseating Key.

      It seems so many people, perhaps excluding comfortable financially well insulated baby boomers and the very wealthy, regardless of their generation, have all been kicked down a rung in the last decade.

      Somethings gotta give.

  3. Undecided 3

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11510029

    Is Angelina Jolie advocating war? I did not see that coming at all.

    • Draco T Bastard 3.1

      I’m not sure what she’s advocating from that. She’s calling for a stronger response but the article doesn’t actually say what sort of response. That could be on purpose if the MSM is looking to build a case for war.

      • Undecided 3.1.1

        Yeah true thats my assumption I’m curious as to what sort of response shes talking about though

  4. Chooky 4

    Is jonkey nactional and his mates trying to undermine and create a crisis in the public health system in Christchurch….and create a climate for the vultures of privatisation of health to worm their way into Christchurch’s superb, caring, expert, efficient public hospital and state run health system?…SHAME!

    Annette King is a very good opposition spokesperson on Health!

    …GO Labour!

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/201769896/fresh-allegations-of-bad-behaviour-by-health-officials

    • Draco T Bastard 4.1

      Is jonkey nactional and his mates trying to undermine and create a crisis in the public health system in Christchurch

      He’s National so the answer to that question is: Yes, most definitely. National understands that the easiest way to get permanent super-profits is to get the government to pay the private sector to do what the government actually does best.

  5. Chooky 5

    Israel refuses to take refugees but tries to create more refugees

    ‘13,000 Palestinian buildings to be demolished in West Bank – UN report’

    http://www.rt.com/news/314682-palestinian-buildings-demolition-israel/

    ‘Israel destroys EU-funded West Bank shelter for Palestinians while expanding settlements’

    http://www.rt.com/news/240009-israel-eu-building-demolished/

    ‘Israeli court makes way for demolition of Palestinian village’

    http://www.rt.com/news/255933-israel-court-demolition-village/

    • KeepLeft 5.1

      Israel should be forced back to the 1948 borders and Amerikkka plus bankers and the military-industrial elite should stop sending them money and arms. It’s only because the neon-CONs want an outpost in the middle east to stir up trouble with the arabs! Israel out of Palestinian land!!!

  6. mac1 6

    Overcrowding in New Zealand. Some questions for the government here about infrastructure, health spending, tenancy laws, and adequate regulation and monitoring.

    Questions also for the landlord class.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/71825542/slumlike-conditions-anxiety-emerging-in-queenstown-amid-housing-crisis

    In the above Stuff article, a landlord gets $140 per week each for 14 residents. One bathroom provided.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/regional/283650/squalid-rentals-in-millionaires‘-resort. In this article on National radio this morning we learn about Queenstown, where up to thirty people are regularly living in one house, four to a room. Meantime, one third of luxury houses stand empty, as they are holiday homes.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/study-links-overcrowding-and-antibiotic-use-2015070313#axzz3lBTuvsHK

    Surprise, surprise. Housing has an effect on people’s health.

    And the ODT tells us that overcrowded hospitals kill some 400 patients a year, similar to the road toll.

    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/21330/overcrowding-killing-patients

  7. McFlock 7

    Hi lprent,

    I sent a post idea to the gmail address a while ago but never heard anything back, to I sent it through to your geek address yesterday (using my slightly dumb smart phone, which couldn’t handle an explanatory note using the keypad). Did you get it ok?

    • lprent 7.1

      Usual problem. Just very busy at work, spent the weekend with my parents (mother has been very sick), and I’m not getting enough sleep. Lyn caught that damn coughing cold that has been floating around and that laid me out for weeks.

      I have three guest posts that I need to look through. But they are down the list after doing basics like running moderation.

      • BM 7.1.1

        Put vicks on her feet

        Doesn’t work for every one but when the woman was coughing her lungs out and hadn’t slept for days, I came across this.

        http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2012/12/20/ridiculous-vicks-remedy-actually-cured-cough/

        I do not lie when I say the coughing literally disappeared within 5 minutes and she coughed maybe once during the night.

        Instead of thick socks we put freezer bags on her feet and covered them with a pair of light socks.

      • The Chairman 7.1.2

        Which would explain the lack of moderation the other day.

        • joe90 7.1.2.1

          *sniff*

        • lprent 7.1.2.2

          I usually moderate (as do others) every day. That isn’t to say that I don’t miss some. But I’d seldom drop below seeing 85% of all comments.

          What does happen is there is a shift in the depth when I don’t have time. I usually go draconian and start handing out bans like confetti. It becomes less work (for me) to get rid of people acting up for significiant periods of time than it is waste time to educate them about behavioral boundaries.

          When I have the time, I tend to be a whole lot ‘nicer’ and tolerant. People often view that as being being little or no moderation.

          But much of the time what people regard as things that should be moderated are simply people being impolite, offensive, curt or abrupt. None of which are commonly of interest to me as a moderator. I’m only really interested in things that constrain debate, lose authors and moderators, or otherwise affect the site. Peoples feelings are the least of my interests…

          But I usually sweep through several times during the day. Typically about 4 times. Generally there is little or nothing for me to do.

      • McFlock 7.1.3

        Cheers, thanks for that – just making sure you got it.

        You your loved ones get better soon.

        • weka 7.1.3.1

          a guest post, this sounds exciting. I’m kind of hoping it’s about the worship of Dionysis, and I’m really hoping it’s not about vaccination, but I’m sure it’s neither and I can’t think what it might be. Are you going to give us a clue?

          • McFlock 7.1.3.1.1

            A description of a pseudo-Weberian model of leadership and its application to political tactics.

            rather banal, sadly. But I let it gestate for a while after writing, and it has a point that still seems vaguely constructive, so I figure why not.

            My first attempt was a fairly ranty post following on from the Assange debate at its height a few years back, and it either got missed or simply filed in the round filing cabinet. Probably for the best. So I’ll be thinking many times before writing a post on vaccination, cyclists, or smoking – I know I’m right, but to what good? 🙂

  8. Draco T Bastard 8

    And now to throw a spanner in the flag debate:

    Do you notice how insecure companies change their logos and liveries more often than confident ones do? Do you notice how they use flashy look-at-me images instead of clean and enduring ones?

    Flashiness, fun, and novelty may attract customers, but only simplicity and reliability retains them. Which message do you want to put forth about your transit system, or your country?

  9. Something that put a smile on my face:

    Cameron Slater today again on his blog site not being able to write “NZ Herald.” Attributes an article to one of their writers and instead of ‘Herald’ puts ‘A newspaper’.

    It reminds me of kid putting his hands over his eyes in front of everyone and says, “I can see you but you can’t see me!” 😊

  10. Draco T Bastard 10

    My City Sucks and it’s Great

    It’s over in under two minutes, with a minimum of noise and fuss. Call me urbanist geeky, but I get a kick out of this. But I’ve been looking into this lately and I’ve found out that there are 240 of these systems in Denmark, sucking garbage from 27,000 flats. Not surprisingly, most of them are in the densely-populated cities.

    Many of the systems suck garbage from multiple backyards at once, from much farther distances than ours. Be still my urbanist heart. The advantages are many. I assume it’s more cost-efficient to do this rather than have garbage men traipse in and out of countless backyards dragging wheeled containers behind them. I certainly don’t miss the early morning noise waking me prematurely up. Eliminating smells is certainly a bonus. We have a big problem with rats in Copenhagen, so this kind of system separates them from the garbage, too.

    Interestingly enough, this is pretty much the same system that the Venus Project for not only getting rid of the garbage but also delivery of the groceries.

  11. adam 11

    10 years on from Katrina, and I have to say this is the best analysis I’ve seen so far.
    Oh and I laughed too.

  12. Draco T Bastard 12

    Call for submissions on the EPA. Submissions close tomorrow.

  13. weka 13

    The rather large shortcomings of stored solar electricity (eg electric cars) and why I see green tech as an interim not a true sustainability solution,

    • Draco T Bastard 13.1

      It’s one of the reasons why I hold that batteries for storing solar power should be illegal. Use the power generated to keep our dams full and our rivers flowing.

      But that requires that we act cooperatively and the RWNJs don’t like that idea as it means that they can’t become rich bludgers.

      And here’s the thing: I don’t really consider that hole in the ground to be an environmental catastrophe – it’s just a hole in the ground. How it was dug was, the poisons that leech into the ground from the processing of the extracted earth is but the actual hole in the ground not so much.

    • maui 13.2

      I probably would have said that is the way we need to go not so long ago. But now I think following any sort of world economic crisis this sort of new technology is the first that is going to go bankrupt. Then we’ve got dwindling oil supplies to deal with, so everyone having one of these in their home is a pipe dream.

      Not sure what the answer is, maybe people can fashion together old car batteries if they want storage capacity.

  14. weka 14

    Another commentary on the flag. My bold, doesn’t sound too hard, does it?

    We should have learnt from the process South Africa went through to find a new flag that a divided country had not only accepted, but has got behind as a symbol of a new era.

    When Nelson Mandela was released from prison in 1990 and South Africa began the process of ending apartheid, the nation’s flag became part of the negotiations about what post-apartheid South Africa might look like.

    In 1993, the National Symbols Commission held a nationwide public competition, which received over 7,000 designs. Six designs were shortlisted and presented to the public and the Negotiating Council. None were popular, so they tried again. The Commission asked several design studios to submit designs, but again, none were popular.

    In early 1994, the chief negotiators for the African National Congress and the government were tasked with resolving the flag issue. Getting the public to design a flag didn’t work. Even getting designers to design a flag didn’t work. So they went to Frederick Brownell, a flag designer (or ‘vexillographer’) who had also designed the Namibian flag.

    With the elections nearing, Brownell designed the South African flag as an interim measure, but the flag became so popular, it stuck.

    So what are the lessons here?

    http://idealog.co.nz/design/2015/09/seeing-red-peak

  15. Chooky 15

    “Say No”…fabulous music from the Wairoa whanau re- amalgamation

    ( when I watched I couldn’t help thinking about jonkey’s new New Zealand flag at $26 million)

    SAY NO!

    …and to the TPPA!
    …and to privatisation of social welfare and State housing
    …and selling off of State Assets…
    …and to foreign buy up of New Zealand !….SAY NO !

  16. Draco T Bastard 16

    Lessons from a crashed economy NOT learned:

    The number of households struggling with problem debt grew by a quarter between 2012 and last year, as stagnating wages forced a growing number to borrow to get by, according to the TUC.

    By 2014, 3.2 million families were spending at least 25% of their gross monthly pay on servicing unsecured debts, the definition of problem debt. The figure for 2012 was 2.5 million, according to research commissioned by the TUC and Unison.

    Young people, the self-employed and low-income families recorded the biggest increases in debt.

    Although that’s about the UK I’m pretty sure that the same holds true for NZ. Increasing debt is, IMO, the only thing that keeping the economy going and the only place it can go is down.

    As the saying goes: Debt that can’t be repaid won’t be repaid.

  17. Mike the Savage One 18

    Those that are day dreaming ones that think “negotiating” peace in Syria is possible, you are idiots, you have a choice between the following if you believe that:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQAc8dO3Ib0
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seMM7is9Hgo

    One or the other will win, or at least play a major role,
    So where do “progressives” stand, FFS?

  18. Mike the Savage One 19

    Logical analysis will show, that Jabhat Al Nusra and allied forces will win the war in Syria, leaving the US and the west to shame, and after all Osama Bin Laden will have won HIS war and Israel is next to fall. The West and Russia will all be screwed.

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