Open Mike 09/09/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 9th, 2017 - 169 comments
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169 comments on “Open Mike 09/09/2017”

  1. ScottGN 1

    Guess who just sold his Parnell pile to a buyer in China for 20 million?
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11919697

  2. Ant 2

    GOOD TEACHER, BAD TEACHER (THE PERSISTENT MYTH)
    Dave’s students gain grades well above the national average. He focuses on the curriculum and how best to deliver the syllabus according to approved didactic theory. His eye is on assessment dates, the next ERO audit and his tracking milestones leading up to the end of year exams. He knows he can get the best grades out of his students by sticking to his plan, allowing minimum discussion outside of the main themes and by grooming his students for assessment. He feeds them a regular stream of past question papers with model answers. He gives his students feedback, rewarding them with praise when their answers align with conformity. His students know class-time with him is predictable, structured, and achievement orientated. Dave was pleased to receive a letter from the Ministry:

    Dear David Jones
    Congratulations on the excellent grades achieved by your NCEA students. You have demonstrated the high ideals demanded of your profession and it is our pleasure to inform you of a $20 000 bonus payable to you under our performance-based pay scales. Our assessors have identified you as an ‘expert teacher’ and would like to invite you to lead a series of seminars imparting tips and strategies to those struggling in the profession. We will be in touch with you early next year.
    Yours sincerely
    MINISTRY OF EDUCATION

    The grades of Sarah’s students approximate the national average. She focuses on the educational needs of young hearts and minds in her care and understands that the subject matter is not always of prime interest to a teenager. Accordingly she brings enrichment to her lessons and is delighted when greater numbers begin active participation. She encourages enquiry, independent thought and risk-taking. Her eye is not so much on grades in relation to national averages but on the number of shy, hesitant or poorly motivated students, who during the course of the year have ‘ah ha’ moments and begin to take ownership of their own education. Sarah’s students know class-time with her is an opportunity to explore thought processes, savour the subject matter and look more deeply into themselves as maturing human beings. Sarah received a letter from her school’s Board of Trustees.

    Dear Sarah Thompson
    Once again we note the grades attained by your NCEA students are barely above the national average. We would urge you to make a greater effort next year by embracing methods currently identified as best practice. We remind you too that the Ministry offers remunerative incentives for better performance. To this end we urge you to attend next year’s seminars conducted by an expert teacher from the Department.
    Yours sincerely
    CHAIRMAN (BOARD OF TRUSTEES)

    • ianmac 2.1

      Brilliant Ant. Yet that idiot Seymour cannot see that money damages authenticity.
      A few years ago Auckland Grammar claimed a high pass rate based on exactly your David Jones. Practice exam passing and practice again. It is why AG want to stay with exams like Lauriette.

      • tracey 2.1.1

        A few years ago the private college in Parnell had high fails in Cambridge. With no NCEA many of the students left and had to do 6 months foundation courses at Uni to get into Uni. But not made public cos they do not have to publish results. Needless to say many parents were ropable.

    • tracey 2.2

      Seymour from memory said no other “business” when referring to paying teachers well… It was galling to watch a guy representing 0.4% of the electorate getting so much air time…

    • Incognito 2.3

      The pressure to conform often masquerading as ‘well-meant’ professional advice.

    • Jilly Bee 2.4

      Excellent Ant – I was a couple of days ago trying to explain my wee rant on my Facebook page about David Seymours piece to my son, who incidentally went to Auckland Grammar, back in the day and his son also attends AG, not without more than a few problems at the beginning of the year. He cannot see the reasoning behind the collective agreement, and not simply applying performance pay for such teachers such as ‘Dave’, who fits the criteria of (only) results based teaching. I struggled to articulate my feelings about my misgivings about such methodology or pedagogy and like a lot of employers he sheets most of the blame to the unions, for simply doing their job.

      • Eco maori 2.4.1

        national are just using there divided and conquer technic so they can force any policies on teachers Jolly bee these people are control freaks and Don’t like the teachers unity putting them in there places they just want to privatise our schools and give a shit service.

      • ianmac 2.4.2

        Performance Pay is based on the belief that if you give people more money they will perform better. For jobs that depend on colleagues to cooperate, extra pay for extra work doesn’t work.
        How about Performance Pay for MPs? Someone would get to choose which MP is better than another and since a Party depends on a tight togetherness, there would be bad feelings among those who do not get chosen.
        “I’m damned if I am going to let that bastard pinch my ideas so I will not share and my staff will be bound to silence.”
        “And what if the Minister of Finance lets us all down with an idiotic lie about fiscal errors which don’t exist? Leaves all in our Party looking dishonest and stupid. Should his pay be docked by 50% like we would do to a common beneficiary? ”
        And in the ACT Party who would decide on his competence? Seymour has a huge belief in himself so would award a huge bonus.
        A huge number of workers work hard out of a belief and pleasure in what they do. Money is not the main driver and P Pay is an insult.

        • In Vino 2.4.2.1

          Well said Ianmac. But in my experience many people from the ‘world of business’ are devoted to their latest theory, and believe it will succeed everywhere if only people would apply their theory correctly. They do not countenance any basic flaw in their beloved theory. (Maybe because of self-interest?)

        • mac1 2.4.2.2

          “A huge number of workers work hard out of a belief and pleasure in what they do. Money is not the main driver and P Pay is an insult.”

          This performance pay malarkey has two main errors which people who come from outside the teaching/carer industries do not often understand. You are right, Ianmac in pointing out the tremendous cooperation and the reason why we teachers did as we did, to benefit kids.

          It wasn’t the money. What I remember from my association with teaching over forty years are firstly the students, then the staff, then the good teaching and real changes to people that sometimes occurred.

          Funnily I don’t remember the salary that well. But when I was a farm and industrial worker, wages and conditions were the main driver for my effort. I can still tell you the rates from forty to fifty years ago. $1 an hour plus overtime at time and a half for the first four hours and double time thereafter as a cleaner the Sixties and then $125 pw plus half a sheep, firewood and free accommodation as a farm worker in the late Seventies.

          • tracey 2.4.2.2.1

            If an employee is unhappy and you pay tgem more you get a better paid unhappy employee

            • gsays 2.4.2.2.1.1

              Hmmm.. perhaps.
              I am unhappy largely because of poor pay.
              I am in hospitality in a busy kitchen.
              I have suggested a non taxable travel allowance, profit share and a simple pay increase.
              All not doable.
              I am merely seeking the living wage for a fully qualified, 20 years experience chef.

              This is why I resent talk of ‘the average wage’. It is so far beyond me and my colleagues

              • tracey

                I am not referring to those poorly paid and in low wage jobs. I am referring to the Seymour/National notion that more money makes everyone happier.

                Research sjows when employees feel unvalued, bullied and/or mistrustful then paying them more makes them better paid under valued, bullied and mistrustful employees. Not more productive.

                Pay rises are nice but almost never solve the underlying problem which is lack of respect and value.

                • gsays

                  Hey fair call.
                  I have heard and have some empathy with: you can’t pay bad employees poorly enough,and you can’t pay good employees well enough.

          • In Vino 2.4.2.2.2

            +1 mac1.
            But this is one of the reasons that teachers are underpaid. Despite the ranting of rightie rednecks about how powerful the teacher unions are, teachers will not actually do more than a token one-day strike during pay negotiations. They get exploited because right-wing greedies say that they enjoy their ‘vocation’ so much that they are not seeking high pay. And they are not ruthless enough to really strike.
            Teachers by and large (me included) would accept current universal low pay before Seymore’s poisoned chalice of heaps of performance pay.
            We need a new government with educational vision, or we need a more vicious way of striking that hurts the govt more than students and parents.
            In the past, govt always caved in to teachers if the struggle went on a long time, and govt eventually realised that too many Boards of Trustees were starting to side with the teachers.
            Instant general settlement at that point.

        • Eco maori 2.4.2.3

          +100 imacmam

        • Craig H 2.4.2.4

          Performance pay only works for mechanical labour (physical work, basically), and is counterproductive for anything else – studies clearly show this.

      • Tautoko Mangō Mata 2.4.3

        Another aspect totally ignored is the fact that many students in private or high performing secondary schools have been “privately coached” for the exams. This is typically ignored by those who promote results based performance pay.

        This ability to ignore all the variables that cannot be controlled seems to be either irrational thinking or deliberate deceit which brings us to the real reason for performance pay- cost cutting and union busting.

        Those who have achieved a position by climbing over the backs of others, instead of joining arms and supporting others along the journey are probably those who would be first into the life-raft ahead of others more needy. I guess I will never understand their view any more than they will understand mine.

  3. Frida 3

    So I haven’t commented for a long time so forgive me (life has been busy having babies, becoming self-employed etc). I’d also become so disillusioned with NZ politics. But my left-leaning views hadn’t changed in all that time, and finally I feel some hope for a Labour-Green government as a prospect in two weeks time.
    Because of my passion, I started making comments on Facebook on Stuff and Spin-off articles again. Nothing rude, abusive or derogatory about the right. Just criticism of some of the dirty politics e.g. the made up “hole” this week. And I publicly gave Jacinda the win from the Town Hall debate because I think she wiped the floor with Bill and anyone who couldn’t see that was watching another debate!
    Anyway, the point of my comment here is this. Suddenly, after making such public Facebook comments, Facebook suggests Wayne Eagleson to me as a friend. I’m not a conspiracy theorist, I’m a very sane person haha but I can’t help feeling creeped out that suddenly he pops up as a friend suggestion. We know NO ONE in common, I have nothing to do with him in my personal or professional life. As far as I understand how these “suggestions” work, he has popped up because he has been looking at my page?! And presumably because I criticised the Nats? Does anyone else find this creepy and insidiously Big Brother-like? I am furious.

    • gsays 3.1

      Hi frida, the important thing to remember about Facebook is;
      you are not the customer, you are the product/commodity.

      • Frida 3.1.1

        Yes for sure, I’m under no illusions about Facebook! My fury arises from the fact that Wayne Eagleson is out there poking about on the pages of anyone who might be an “enemy” of the Nats! How dare he!?

        • joe90 3.1.1.1

          Wayne Eagleson is out there

          Dollars to donuts it won’t be Wayne Eagleson out there poking about on the pages of anyone who might be an “enemy” of the Nats, it’ll be Facebook, operating as a hands-on partner in Nationals campaign.

    • mary_a 3.2

      @ Frida (3) … That’s invasive as well as creepy! A form of subtle intimidation as well … ‘we are watching you’, sort of thing!

      • Frida 3.2.1

        @mary_a – exactly!! That’s what I thought. and the sort of action that would be so easy to deny by him.

    • joe90 3.3

      Anyway, the point of my comment here is this. Suddenly, after making such public Facebook comments, Facebook suggests Wayne Eagleson to me as a friend.

      At 2.30 in the video linked below, one of Trump’s digital managers explains how Google, Facebook and YouTube were the campaign’s hands-on partners, consulting directly with Cambridge Analytica to help get Donald Trump elected, because they were paid millions.

      • marty mars 3.3.1

        saw a good one the other day – someone posted

        “Do you ever feel like your being watched” and then the next comment was

        “It is you’re not your” from CIA (with logos and stuff) posted ‘just now’

        could be fake and was funny.

      • Eco maori 3.3.2

        They are hacking our democracy as they hacked the British exciting I think that is a big mistake Britain leaving the European union British is held up as WORLD leaders and if they leave the union America will have a stronger influence on Britain and it won’t be good like I say I don’t believe in coincidence Britain needs to have a nother vote on that subject the European union needs to demand this to happen.

    • lprent 3.4

      Facebook’s algorithms would have noticed your interest in NZ politics and have popped it up a a shared interest. If they don’t have much data on you then you can get some pretty wide choices.

      Most likely a dumb machine issue.

      • greywarshark 3.4.1

        Not dumb-enough machine issue to me. Get out of my face is the reaction I feel. I wondered why a well-known poster would show up as wanna-be-friend on my facebook other day. I didn’t know how it worked, and thought why would they want to friend me. So nosy machine is the answer, makes more sense.

  4. Hongi Ika 5

    Joyce has always been the Master of Spin and the Dark Arts ?

    Control of the media is a very powerful tool especially in political circles, Hitler & Goebbels did it very well in the 1930’s and 1940’s in Germany prior to and during WW2 ?

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

  5. ianmac 6

    Steve Braunias writes a charming piece with Jacinda on the Trail. Exhausting just reading about a long exciting day with Jacinda and reflects the amazing people response she gets.
    eg: “The turnout for Jacinda Ardern at Waikato University was bigger than orientation day.”
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11919861
    PS. Be interesting to contrast when Steve is to write about being with Bill.

  6. The Chairman 7

    Scotty Morrison gives the Green’s candidate Jack McDonald a good endorsement (from 25.30 in the clip linked below).
    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/marae/episodes/s2017-e27

    • tracey 7.1

      Scotty Morrison is one of the good guys. Sadly a bit of an exception amongst the other Morrisons I have met (3l), who behave a little self entitled and” royal” .

  7. Glenn 8

    Damien Light. Articulate fast speaking United Future spokesman.
    https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/damian-light-speed-dating-new-face-united-future-unexpected-hit-1-news-minor-parties-debate

    I thought he did darn well for a newbie on last nights debate.

    • In Vino 8.1

      But should he have even been there? UF is obviously gone.

      • In Vino 8.1.1

        Let me answer my own question. No, he should not. Gareth Morgan should have taken his place. The law was made with good intention, but on this occasion the law turned out once again to be an ass.

        • Carolyn_nth 8.1.1.1

          The law is also an ass in allowing rich men to try to buy political power.

          • In Vino 8.1.1.1.1

            Not in this case, but otherwise I agree. (Gareth could not buy his way in here.)
            However, it is not only Morgan’s wealth that gives him appeal – a number of naïve people are really impressed with his ideas. Whoops – did I say something bad then?

  8. Interesting for those who love the mountains and bush and wonder what the political parties are saying

    “Federated Mountain Clubs is the national association of tramping, climbing and outdoor clubs, with over 20000 members. We’ve been going (and growing) since 1931, and have always been politically neutral.

    We’ve got a few questions for you, as conservation spokesperson for your party. We want to know if you have policies that will protect and enhance our Outdoors and if your party will speak up for an outdoor life worth living.”

    https://wilderlife.nz/2017/08/political-parties-say/

  9. Well said Desmond Tutu

    The Nobel laureate Desmond Tutu has called on Aung San Suu Kyi to end military-led operations against Myanmar’s Rohingya minority, which have driven 270,000 refugees from the country in the past fortnight.

    The 85-year old archbishop said the “unfolding horror” and “ethnic cleansing” in the country’s Rahkine region had forced him to speak out against the woman he admired and considered “a dearly beloved sister”.

    Despite Aung San Suu Kyi defending her government’s handling of the growing crisis, Tutu urged his fellow Nobel peace price winner to intervene.

    “I am now elderly, decrepit and formally retired, but breaking my vow to remain silent on public affairs out of profound sadness,” he wrote in a letter posted on social media.

    and this which sums it up

    “It is incongruous for a symbol of righteousness to lead such a country,” said the anti-apartheid activist. “If the political price of your ascension to the highest office in Myanmar is your silence, the price is surely too steep.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/08/desmond-tutu-condemns-aung-san-suu-kyi-price-of-your-silence-is-too-steep

    • Tony Veitch (not etc) 10.1

      Just speculation, but I should imagine the military in Myanmar, after God knows how many years as a military dictatorship, is still the most powerful force in the country – and may well be beyond Aung San Suu Kyi’s control.

      • marty mars 10.1.1

        yeah I’m sure there are many angles to it and it is not good enough for her to defend the atrocities cos they are ‘whatever’.

        In 2017 this shit has to stop.

      • joe90 10.1.2

        and may well be beyond Aung San Suu Kyi’s control.

        She’s a fucking cheer leader.

        Nobel Peace Prize laureate Aung San Suu Kyi left even her most ardent supporters shocked when she lost her composure after being challenged by BBC presenter Mishal Husain on the massacres of Muslims in Myanmar.

        The Burmese politician was left ruffled as she was repeatedly asked by Husain to condemn anti-Islamic sentiment during an interview on the Today programme. “I think there are many, many Buddhists who have also left the country for various reasons,” she replied after being pressed for an answer. “This is a result of our sufferings under a dictatorial regime.”

        She was later heard complaining off-air: “No one told me I was going to be interviewed by a Muslim.”

        http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/aung-san-suu-kyi-no-one-told-me-i-was-going-be-interviewed-by-muslim-1551637

  10. alwyn 11

    A little piece of trivia for the weekend, and for all cycling enthusiasts.

    “Pod racing: human-powered speed

    Like a scene from “Star Wars”, a sleek white capsule zips across the scorching Nevada desert. But there are no rocket boosters here. The bullet-like vessels that will hurtle down State Route 305 next week at velocities of up to 145km (90 miles) per hour are driven entirely by pumping legs and arms. This will be the 18th edition of the annual World Human-Powered Speed Challenge, a competition for bicycles, tricycles and tandems. Most riders pedal in a recumbent position, accelerating for 8km before reaching a speed trap of 200m. This is no contest for crackpot tinkerers. Graeme Obree, twice holder of cycling’s prestigious hour-distance record, competed in 2013. The current mark for the fastest human vehicle was set last year by Google-sponsored Todd Reichert, a speed skater with a PhD in aerospace engineering. If high-tech racing is your thing, then these are the ovoids you are looking for.”

    I think these people must have been training on the shared footpath along Oriental Bay in Wellington. This is about the speed cyclists travel there.

    • weka 11.1

      If you’re going to quote someone, please cite.

      • alwyn 11.1.1

        It is actually out of an Economist prepared e-mail I get each day.
        Unless you are registered for it I don’t know where you would be able to see it.
        Anyway the source is The Economist. I meant to cite it at the end but I missed it out I’m afraid.

        • weka 11.1.1.1

          Citations don’t have to be linkable to on the internet. They just need to cite who the author is and where the quote is from. e.g. someone could type out a paragraph from a book, and provide the author and name of the book. Cite is a formal word, really I’m just saying to say where the quote came from, as respect for the person who wrote it and so readers have a bit of context.

  11. The Chairman 12

    I’d like to thank The Nation on TV3 for their effort in keeping poverty and institutional abuse front and centre.

  12. Eco maori 13

    Now these people harassing me just don’t get it. I take there attack on me and my credibility as a attack on my FAMILY one mite say your nest is empty and they be right.
    The way I interact with my family is I give them the advice I think they need sometimes they take my advice most times they don’t and then most times they don’t take my advice the come to me and say I should have taken your advice so I let my children make there minor mistakes and I DON’T make a big deal of there choices as most people learn by there mistakes.
    But when I see or hear that they are going to do STUPID SHIT I put my foot down and I make a big deal about a situation were they are going to make a big mistake and they listen to there dad.
    So I’m the head of a my family of 20 my wife children there partners and children our moko.

    Now as I have just seen on the Nation on the state cover up of child abuse while in the care of state was covered up.WTF.

    That is mentality of western state civil servants it is to cover up all the fuck ups they make at all cost this behaviour was displayed on the Nation and this behaviour is not Acceptable behaviour for the people who actually run our country or our WORLD these people need to be held accountable for there bad behavior or that bad behavior will continue to rot OUR SOCIETY.
    I have made challenges to these civil servants and the national party and the Intimidation stepped up more so I’m raffling a lot of big wig in our civil servants.
    Now these people are saying you can’t let this criminal no that he has a big following and keep making bull shit up to support there claims Now I’m not criminal because you no if they had anything but gossip and lies with the attention the state is giving me I would be locked up quick smart to silence me.
    They are saying we won’t let him no what he has achieved because he is going to hit us on the head with this power.
    I say help me correct these people bad behavior because they are the people whom have our future in there hands and we can not afford to let them fuck up our children future.
    A commission of inquiry is in my view lets stall this and when the waters are calm they will say no one is at fault.

    The way National is behaving is a direct result of the civil servants bad culture of never admit liability to anything at all cost .
    And this is the reason that I’m sceptical of Labour being able to change things because these civil servants will lie and cheat Jacainda to keep thing the same and our country World will never be able to right the wrongs if these people are not put in line.
    This behavior of our civil servants is why some MPs think they are above the law because they witness this behaviour by civil servants all the time you see all behavior is learned off other people.

  13. joe90 14

    Bulls eye.

    Allow me to demonstrate what sexist double-standards in the media look like. pic.twitter.com/NMUrXofLZq— Samy St Clair 📷 ✍️✈ (@SamyStClair) September 8, 2017

  14. Eco maori 15

    Pike River is a cover up of some ones fuck up they don’t give a shit who they hurt so long as there image is all nice and clean. The police force have the same cover there ass culture come on people’s we need to fight this shit.

  15. mikesh 16

    I have just been reading, on the Liberation website, Bryce Edwards’ affidavit regarding TOP´s exclusion from the minor parties’ debate. I was impressed by the strength of his arguments, and was surprised that the court went the way it did. I know the court needed to take into account TVNZ´s right to decide its own criteria, and I realise that TOP did not meet those criteria, but I would have thought that the public interest in the election outcome would have overridden such narrow considerations.

    • Eco maori 16.1

      They don’t want Gareth in government because he knows what is going on I seriously think of switching because of this farcical behavior from the courts Wtf

    • tracey 16.2

      If TVNZ is legally entitled to its criteria and TOP dont meet that then everything else, however compelling is irrelevant. There is also the problem of polls not reflecting final result and 1+- 4.9% only electorally relevant if you win a seat, so how is TOP doing in electoral seat polls?

      • Eco maori 16.2.1

        The polls are manipulate to suit the cause national mind set is if we lose this election we will rig things so whom gets in power won’t change things to much i.e. NXZZZZZFIrst Maori party. And national think they will win next election and THEY can carry on selling NZ to there M8s remember national are still pulling the strings.
        And who has been in the beehive since 1984. Manipulating our politicians !!!!!!😊😊

      • mikesh 16.2.2

        Although TVNZ may be entitled to set its own criteria I think it has a legal duty, given that an election is a public institution, to ensure that the criteria it decides upon should be both reasonable and democratic. For three percent support to be required doesn´t seem reasonable for a new party, particularly given that many small parties, even those with seats in parliament rarely poll as much as two percent. Two percent is actually quite high for parties other than the big four.

  16. ummm Labour and Māori Party – yeah nah

    “They continue to dismiss Maori issues as having no relevance or no importance – ‘Oh, it’s about the teachers Marama, we don’t have enough teachers.’ Well of course we have to make a plan but make a commitment first. If these people think having them MPs sitting in the Labour Party is the face they need to ensure they have better outcomes for Maori they are sadly mistaken,” Ms Fox says.

    She says Kelvin Davis was made Labour’s deputy leader as a tokenistic gesture to capture the Maori vote, and she doubts he will stay in the role for long.

    http://www.waateanews.com/waateanews/x_story_id/MTcyNDQ=/Fox%20blast%20for%20Labour%20Maori%20MPs

    Will be interesting indeed.

    The Labour Māori MP’s must be wondering what is going to happen – best scenario for them – take all the seats then the MP can bugger off but Howie is in the lead and Hone may still come through. The mana of these MP’s is being tested and it is a fascinating contest.

    • weka 17.1

      “She says Kelvin Davis was made Labour’s deputy leader as a tokenistic gesture to capture the Maori vote, and she doubts he will stay in the role for long.”

      I like Fox a lot, but I don’t find that credible tbh. As long as he does the job well, why would Labour replace him?

      I’m not sure what’s at the bottom of the antagonism between the two parties (I can but guess).

      But if the Mp had to choose between being in opposition to a N/Act/NZF govt and being in C and S with a L/G govt (or even in govt), why would they not choose the latter? And if Labour has to choose between being in govt with the Mp or not being able to form govt, why would they not choose the former?

      • marty mars 17.1.1

        It is all positioning at the moment – puffy chests and loud voices. When the votes are counted is when the real action starts imo.

        Interesting watching fox though – she is playing a dangerous game – she just isn’t that good, not as good as she thinks she is anyway imo.

        • weka 17.1.1.1

          I get disappointed when she does that stuff. I understand why, Labour have been stupid in all this too, but it’s still hard to see the point. The other night she had a poke at Shaw in the debate saying that at this rate they’re looking like they won’t make it back into parliament. Which was odd given her own position, and also just a stupid thing to say to a potential ally as an attack line. She’s been hanging out too long with Nact maybe.

          • marty mars 17.1.1.1.1

            Yep – she has a slightly heightened view of her own skills and abilities imo – and this is seen in her approach to Davis and Shaw and a few others. Very hard for Davis to shut her down – bit of auntie stuff and I’m not sure of their whakapapa but she may have better lines than him – I suspect so because of the way she is belittling him (undermining his mana). Will be up to Jacinda to sort out and she had better support her Labour MP’s (and I’m sure she will) because if not then it will get ugly imo.

            • weka 17.1.1.1.1.1

              Would that mean not giving Mp MPs ministerial roles at the expense of Labour MPs? Sounds fair enough in the first term, the Mp need to prove themselves good allies and the relationship needs time to be rebuilt.

              • I imagine if there is some arrangement with the MP and Labour then the MP are going to want something to show their supporters – ‘hey look we CAN work with both sides.’ Maybe associate this or that might work – if someone is in then someone is out and those equations are hard to calculate. Pleased it isn’t me doing it.

            • tracey 17.1.1.1.1.2

              Have you forgotten Davis’ confrontational about MP comment the first time he opened his mouth as Dep Leader? Macho peeing on his patch stuff.

              • Not sure what you are trying to say there.

                • tracey

                  “she has a slightly heightened view of her own skills and abilities imo – and this is seen in her approach to Davis and Shaw and a few others. Very hard for Davis to shut her down – bit of auntie stuff and I’m not sure of their whakapapa but she may have better lines than him – I suspect so because of the way she is belittling him (undermining his mana).  ”
                  Go read his comment at his first presser as Dep Leader about the MP. Substitue Auntie for whatever and change the pronouns.

                  This is a two way street and from where I sit Davis started it. Am sorry Fox has lowered herself.

                  • Deleted

                    I was offering a Māori lens in the specific situation.

                    • tracey

                      That Davis started the fight with the MP. You seem to sheeting it to Fox with some borderline sexist rhetoric. I am reminding you that Davis was like a kid picking a fight cos he thought he was bigger at that first press conference. My thought at the time was “wtf would you do that for when it is about buikding bridges to bring down Nat/Act.

                    • Yeah it’s obvious to me that you don’t get what I’m saying. All good – i’m not interested in continuing the discussion with you on this thanks.

                    • weka

                      The fight was already going on before Davis did that. I agree it was an opportunity and I seem to remember Labour opening the door or at least unlocking it whereas Little had locked it and put a chair under the handle on their side.

                      I think both parties have handled it badly, but I don’t understand Māori politics very well so I am sure there things I am missing.

              • weka

                Bad behaviour on both sides I think. It predates Davis too. Little’s thing about the Mp not being kaupapa Māori, that’s inexcusable.

                • tracey

                  I just had a WTF moment at that presser with Ardern when Davis’ first words were to goad the MP. A fresh leadership was a chance to build a bridge

          • Eco maori 17.1.1.1.2

            +100 Weka well they are fight each other they should be fighting national in my view that is a better strategy to benefit our people

      • Poission 17.1.2

        The antagonism was Helen Clark,and who is unrepentant for her racist response to orewa.

        http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/330148/helen-clark-no-regrets-over-foreshore-and-seabed

        Needs to be put back in the box with the lid firmly nailed down.

        • weka 17.1.2.1

          Sure, and when Turia was still leading the party it made sense. But this antagonism looks more recent (although I’m sure the history is part of it).

          • weka 17.1.2.1.1

            btw, Ardern said recently that she wouldn’t have done what Clark did re the F and S.

            • Bill 17.1.2.1.1.1

              Well I’ve no idea where she said such a thing, but NZ Labour are currently barreling towards a F&S redux with their insistence that everyone (ie, the state) owns water.

              The Green Party disagrees with them.
              Mana disagrees with them.
              TOPs disagrees with them.
              The Maori Party disagrees with them.

              They all agree that water belongs to Maori and that any process around water must be Maori led.

              • One Anonymous Bloke

                ie, the state

                Depends how the legislation is couched. The proposed bill might assert ownership. Then again it might simply establish charges for commercial use and leave the question of ownership off the table.

                • weka

                  Yes, and the state isn’t everyone, but I guess that takes us deeper into the question.

                  I don’t think NZ is able to have a conversation on this yet. The best we can do is try and protect water from neoliberalism, but let’s not pretend that making Māori use the Crown’s mechanisms in order to protect their rights is what should happen here. It’s a defensive action, not a proactive one, and it ignores nature rights and the possibility that we belong to the land rather than us owning it.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    @Weka, we can’t protect water from Neoliberalism; water doesn’t need protection: we do.

                    Turn the question on it’s head: should we protect Neoliberalism from water, or does Houston (and by extension everywhere else) need Socialism?

                    The conversation is going to happen whether or not we’re ready for it.

                    • weka

                      I would say we’re going to have a self-serving conversation (NZ). The fight is over resources and the only reason it’s being framed in terms of ‘ownership’ (as opposed to say kaitiakitanga) is because most NZers see the natural world as a bank of things to use. The Crown does too. We need to be careful in how we sure them, but ultimately nature is still a thing not a relation and therefore we are more comfortable exploiting it so long as we do so in ways that don’t make our own lives and ability to use the resources worse (would that we could even attain that standard).

                      Sure we can turn the question on its head, but socialism also tends to treat nature as a resource, which is why so many people just jumped from favouring voting Green to Labour (assuming the polls mean something).

                      We can protect water from neoliberalism to an extent which is exactly what Labour and even the Greens want to do. Or we can let water take neoliberalism down, but it’s a very rearguard action on nature’s part that will still result in a great deal of suffering and loss.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Of course it’s a rearguard action: this is (slowly, casually, relentlessly) turning into a rout.

                      Useful philosophies will survive. Neoliberalism, not so much.

                • Bill

                  I don’t think it matters how the legislation is couched OAB. Whatever process or whatever legislation, actions or proposals around water should be informed by the Treaty and Maori led.

                  NZ Labour proposing or drafting legislation unilaterally, or with some token consultation thrown in as an afterthought, is pretty damned arrogant.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Nothing I said precludes any of that.

                    And yeah, one good reason for upholding te tiriti is the way it affects how legislation is couched, whether you think it matters or not.

                    Edit: my personal position is that water owns us: none of us would be here without it. That’s one reason we’re all “stakeholders”.

                    • Eco maori

                      + 100 one anonymous bloke that is a good view that we should all have we must not let the neo liberals banks influence the policy on water because if they do water will only benefit the 1 percent I seen that happen to our fisheries

              • Gabby

                Stewards billie, not owners.

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  Not even that: water created us. It won’t care one jot if we squander that gift. It’ll just go on creating, preserving and changing everything.

                • Patricia Bremner

                  Jacinda used the term Kaitiakitanga, Guardianship, as a concept of care.

                  This was never advanced in the S/F debate sadly.

                  However, Jacinda and her younger members of Labour understand this term and the intent. Awa. Care.

                  Andrew Little’s comment was in regard to money held and work not done to assist the poorest.

                  • One Anonymous Bloke

                    Jacinda used the term Kaitiakitanga, Guardianship, as a concept of care.

                    I don’t know the details of Māoritanga well enough to comment on that, but this Pākehā rejects the notion that we are guardians of water.

                    We can guard our own livelihoods and preserve a future for our descendants by not destroying the world around us. The water will clean up after us regardless.

                    We don’t own the world. (To use a Capitalist metaphor) We aren’t its caregivers: we’re its property.

                    • weka

                      My (limited) understanding is that kaitiakitanga traditionally involved hapū responsibility for a rohe which included not over-using resources. But that this was relationships based and the relationship was not simply about resource management. It’s hard to talk about this without understanding other Māori concepts. Like that we belong to the land.

                      So we keep getting these translations of words (kaitiakitanga = guardianship) without adequately looking at the meaning in the wider understanding and cultural practices on all sides.

                      This is why I support compulsory te reo in schools. When we have a large number of NZers understanding the idea in language that they make sense in, then we might get somewhere.

                      In the meantime we will argue over ‘ownership’ because the selfish, greedy fucks got to set the agenda, for now anyway.

                      I would be surprised if Ardern was using the word kaitiakitanga outside of a Pākehā world view.

                    • One Anonymous Bloke

                      Then I hope her Pākehā world view is closer to mine than say, Shane Jones’.

                    • weka

                      Lol, so do I.

              • tracey

                My guess is Labour remain too scared to upset the comfy white voters…. collectively do tgey represent more voters than those who get that;

                1. Te Tiriti matters; and
                2. Maori are in partnership with everything other New Zealander

        • joe90 17.1.2.2

          Needs to be put back in the box with the lid firmly nailed down.

          Yeah, because women you disagree with conjour up visions of diabolism, eh.
          //

      • The Chairman 17.1.3

        “As long as he does the job well, why would Labour replace him?”

        Possibly, to accommodate for Winston.

        • weka 17.1.3.1

          I don’t think that’s what Fox was referring to. Labour, including Davis, have already acknowledged that the deputy PM role might go to another party MP. That’s not the same as the second in command of the Labour Party though.

      • tracey 17.1.4

        Fox was reaching out when Davis made that odd and confrontational comment at Ardern’s first presser.

      • NewsFlash 17.1.5

        Weka

        Fox was too aggressive, what I couldn’t believe, was what she said after saying the Greens might not make it, that if don’t think they’ll (Greens) make it, don’t waste your vote, vote for the Maori Party.

        I don’t think that Fox would make a very good coalition partner after that performance.

        Shaw was great, very positive summation at end, very polite, never butted in, unlike Seymore, who seems to think he’s the only politician there that matters, he’s so rude, and his opinions are so irrelevant, he’s talking to so few.

        A few were annoyed Peters didn’t show.

        • weka 17.1.5.1

          True, but Labour didn’t used to be good at relationship either, so there’s potential. I’ve seen Fox make good connections with the Greens and working with them, so I don’t know what was going on the other night. Daft.

          Seymour is a disgrace and an embarrassment. In one of the earlier debates I thought he was quite good in terms of debating, but the other night he was rude, aggressive, and showed himself to be an arsehole (and that’s not even getting to his politics but I’m sure it’s related).

          Peters’ no show was odd. Like he’s afraid of something (I’d guess Shaw pointing out the problem with NZF being a potential coalition partner for National. So glad that one is finally biting NZF on the bum).

          • tracey 17.1.5.1.1

            He was a buly. True colours and all that but his base seem to like that… Douglas, Prebble and Hide before him.

        • mary_a 17.1.5.2

          @ NewsFlash (17.1.5) … I guess Peters doesn’t consider himself to be leader of a minor party! Not a good look and considering he does have a support base, he’s showing disrespect to them by not putting in an appearance. He was a no show at another debate, if my memory serves me right.

        • Anne 17.1.5.3

          Marama Fox comes across to me as someone who has quite a nasty streak when she feels so inclined. Not sure I could trust her word in a coalition arrangement.

          • adam 17.1.5.3.1

            Odd comment there Anne, the Māori Party have no track record of not keeping their word. Indeed one of the few parties which have listened too, then followed the wishes of their constituents as well.

            So I’m guessing your personal take is you dislike Marama Fox, which perfectly OK by the way. But odd, as you are one of the people pushing for a change of government are you not?

            • Anne 17.1.5.3.1.1

              I neither like nor dislike her because I don’t know her. It is nothing more than an observation. Funnily enough I nearly added that Tariana Turia who felt deeply betrayed by Labour, never used spite as a weapon against them.

    • Ad 17.2

      Fox won’t get in but Howie Tamati will.

      They are still good for 2 seats, and will be a valuable option.

    • McFlock 17.3

      Dunno much about Fox, but Davis has made a few bad steps since becoming deputy leader. Not being on point with policy, being combative in interviews, that sort of thing. If he doesn’t play catch-up he might get kicked down a notch in a year or so.

  17. BIGDOG 18

    I watched the Aljazeera doco on NZ water quality,and if only half of it was true it still marks our descent into some kind of banana republic state.It is well worth 25 minutes of your time and there is more to come in the second segment .I must admit that the general stupidity of the whole plan was made a pleasure to view by the main protagonist looking and behaving like Boss Hog from the Dukes of Hazzard!

  18. The Chairman 19

    The part of the Leaders Debate we weren’t shown

  19. “The Crown has corrected a historic wrong dating to 1916 by pardoning Rua Kenana, Maori Development Minister Te Ururoa Flavell says.

    The Tuhoe prophet and leader, sometimes known as Ruatapunu, was arrested in 1916 during a raid in which his son was killed.

    The agreement was signed by descendants of Kenana and representatives of the Crown at Maungapohatu Marae on Saturday morning.”

    100 years – I hope some of the pain is now eased.

    “The statutory pardon will not be official until Parliament passes specific legislation, at which point it will only be the fourth arising from Crown/Maori relations”

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/96677130/crown-rights-historic-wrong-in-urewera-arrest-of-rua-kenana

    Only the fourth? – is that because only 4 injustices were done? Only 4 people wrongly imprisoned or demonised, only 4?

  20. ianmac 21

    “The Anglican Synod has decided to reinstate Christ Church Cathedral.”

      • greywarshark 21.1.1

        English: “”What they are doing there are building on their past to link the city to the future in a way that will be strongly symbolic for the whole country as well as the city of Christchurch.”

        It sure is strongly symbolic. The National Government have denied Christchurch democracy and interfered in its decision making for years. They don’t want to move NZ or Christchurch into a future that offers a decent life for all people in Christchurch or anywhere , can spend vast millions on vanity projects around NZ now Christchurch, and now want to build another highway – to heaven.

        If they think that will fast track them upwards to join the angelic chorus, think again the duplicitous oiks.

      • Stuart Munro 21.1.2

        It’s the best that could be expected from a government that lacks the vision to create something of comparable cultural and aesthetic value for the space. The wisdom of rebuilding stone structures, however reinforced, in earthquake zones is fairly shaky – not nearly as shaky as Bill’s recipe for economic growth of course.

        Hundertwasser would’ve solved the problem economically with a structure fit for the 21st century. The Gnats are simply too backward to even consider his kind of solution.

        • Pat 21.1.2.1

          the Nats have plenty to answer for in the ChCh EQ response…but this one aint on them

          • Stuart Munro 21.1.2.1.1

            It turns out that this one is more symbolic than all the other “keystone projects” they’ve made such a shambles of. If they actually had had any vision this would’ve been the place to show it – the Church was by no means sure it wanted to rebuild.

            • Pat 21.1.2.1.1.1

              it wasn’t their decision to make…..and there was further court action in the offing….Im actually surprised the Church didn’t offload the problem to the Gov by taking the gifting option.

    • ianmac 22.1

      What they were not committing to was cutting the National’s the punitive Beneficiary process. What the panel wanted was “demolish” the terrible means and manner of the system which intimidates and frightens those in need. But Labour wants to carefully assess just which bits to reform. A blanket promise would cause more harm that good.

  21. adam 23

    Balls to the walls. Vicente Fox is a star.

  22. AsleepWhileWalking 24

    What we knew already – good to see it in print.

    BUT the response from Min. Tolley could have been better. Nobody cares how difficult your job is.

    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/election-2017/339064/winz-staff-accused-of-withholding-entitlements

  23. greywarshark 25

    That moving image of Slater/Cameron for OM 9/9/2014 is a real piece of resistance.

  24. mary_a 26

    I take it when the government changes in a couple of weeks, there will also be a change of Speaker?

  25. mary_a 27

    FFS. Natz released a video outlining the life of Bill English! Not only is his wife Mary seen ringing her husband’s praises, but also Bennett, the holy man Joyce and Nikki Kaye.

    As to be expected, the Great Fraud himself has been rolled out to give his endorsement of his former deputy!

    This sideshow puts me in mind of a poor infomercial praising the wonders of a cheap nasty bowel cleanse product!

    With each passing day now, it seems to me Bennett is taking up more and more of the screen, horizontally that is! And this video is definitely demonstrating this point!

    Natz getting really desperate now with this lot of old cobblers!

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11920321

  26. Eco maori 28

    Now those civil servants would have shit there pants when they heard my humane ideas of using rewards instead of prison.
    They say this Idiot wants to give gang money to stay out of jail or trouble .
    Well no that is STUPID one does not reward bad behavior and being in a gang is bad behavior in my view. I Have seen what a jail does to someone he goes for the first time gets 18 months comes put of prison all pumped up because all they got to do in there is pump iron.
    He gets out act like he is bulletproof and his behavior is 10x worst than he went in those old buggers in prison con them to join there gang and make them run for them when they get out.
    Now the reward good behavior will kill 3 birds with one stone
    1 no gangs qualifies so this will erode the gangs base.
    2 this will stop people on minor charges will not go to jail and join a gang
    3 this will lower our jail population and produce some good citizens and workers it could be training subsidies and employee incentive spend early to save common people

    • ianmac 28.1

      They say that the first 30 days is the greatest deterrent. After that a prisoner becomes institutionalised and of course brutalised.

  27. Pat 29

    “You cannot take away someone’s story without giving them a new one. It is not enough to challenge an old narrative, however outdated and discredited it may be. Change happens only when you replace one story with another. When we develop the right story, and learn how to tell it, it will infect the minds of people across the political spectrum.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/sep/09/george-monbiot-how-de-we-get-out-of-this-mess

    it is worth noting that Monbiot uses the word ‘story’…..not ‘policy.’

    • ianmac 29.1

      For most people when they get a belief about something, it sticks even if contrary evidence should shift them. It takes a willingness to open the mind and look for adjustments. It is probably why intelligent well educated people are looking for solutions to problems where as those less educated tend to hang on to previous conceptions. Probably why people who support Greens and Labour are better educated but the others are conservative and narrow minded.

      • Pat 29.1.1

        wasn’t exactly what I took from the article

        • Incognito 29.1.1.1

          Story=climate; policy=weather?

          • Pat 29.1.1.1.1

            nothing so metaphorical….think Jacindamania.

            • Incognito 29.1.1.1.1.1

              Fair enough and although I’ve been lambasted here for explaining my metaphors I will explain this one too.

              Neoliberalism changed the thinking (attitudes) and actions of a whole generation and this is the “story” that Monbiot was referring to, which I labelled “climate”. Policies are the short-term manifestations of that overarching ‘story’, which I called “weather”. See /labours-climate-change-policy-nuclear-free-moment/#comment-1380619 for the climate & weather metaphors.

              To take the metaphors one step further, both neoliberalism and CC/AGC are caused by humans and have a ‘human’ solution, i.e. they can be stopped or changed and the outcome can be influenced or altered. This is the important message for both these problems.

              • Pat

                but not without a new story…says Monbiot…

                “When we encounter a complex issue and try to understand it, what we look for is not consistent and reliable facts but a consistent and comprehensible story. When we ask ourselves whether something “makes sense”, the “sense” we seek is not rationality, as scientists and philosophers perceive it, but narrative fidelity. Does what we are hearing reflect the way we expect humans and the world to behave? Does it hang together? Does it progress as stories should progress?

                A string of facts, however well attested, will not correct or dislodge a powerful story. The only response it is likely to provoke is indignation: people often angrily deny facts that clash with the narrative “truth” established in their minds. The only thing that can displace a story is a story. Those who tell the stories run the world.”

                https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/sep/09/george-monbiot-how-de-we-get-out-of-this-mess

                • Incognito

                  So true!

                  The one story flows into the next; there are connections (e.g. flash-backs) and repeated themes and characters. No story comes from absolutely nothing; they build on and with existing material.

                  We are the creators, story-tellers, and the readers/listeners all at the same time. We write these stories by and for ourselves, metaphorically speaking. Each individual has a role to play in the bigger story and ads his/her own unique part to the overall. For all and the one.

      • Eco maori 29.1.2

        I Mac man +100 that is the reason why the neo liberals don’t want our people educate so our people won’t be able to challenge the neo liberals state.This is the reason they stopped free education for all.
        Uneducated people are easier to lie to.!!!!!,
        I believe that most of the civil servants that run our country and World are neo liberals who don’t no how to come out of there glass bubbles and see the our real world.!!!!

  28. Cinny 30

    Not sure if this has been posted, but the nick smith sculpture drew a crowd next to nicks caravan at the nelson markets today, and it’s coming to Mot for our sunday market tomorrow. That should always happen. Massive thanks Sam Mahon, epic effort.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/96674993/nick-smith-trouserless-sculpture-lands-in-mps-home-town

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