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Open Mike 09/10/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 9th, 2017 - 132 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

132 comments on “Open Mike 09/10/2017 ”

  1. Gristle 1

    It came to me overnight. No drugs, no alcohol, so it must have been the cheese.

    The answer as to who NZF will choose for Government is both. No wait and keep reading. For one half of the term NZF goes with National, and then for the other half of the term he goes with Labour/Greens.

    See my estimate is that the 7 year itch needs to be adjusted into NZ Government years (what will become known as the NZGY): One and a half NZGYs is equal to 7 human years.

    And so with the honeymoon is over, and everybody is fighting over who is the favourite child, it’s separation time and you need to find a new significant other. Luckily in NZ this time we have a spare. Now there are not many electorates around the world who plan so well.

    As to the sequencing, well that something that I hope will come to me after tonight’s bout of dreaming.

  2. Robert Guyton 2

    The “Peters Deal” has already been made. It requires that John Key, newly stripped of his titles, returns to Parliament to play the role of caddy to Winston, as the new PM strides about the Beehive dressed in plus-fours and spats, swinging a flanged niblick at politicians from all parties, foolish enough to venture onto the “Links” as Winston calls what were previously known as the Halls of Power. “It’s a simple and straightforward game”, quipped Peters at his first press conference as Prime Minister, clipping Key behind the ear for a momentary lapse of concentration and also for fun, “the aim being to belt these useless sods into the Joyce Hole with as many swings as I choose. Yes, my caddy “Jonny” was reluctant to take the role, but given what I’ve got on him, he had no choice, and certainly, I am enjoying the sound of his constant whining. The golf bag I have him carrying is loaded heavy with full bottles of wine from his own vineyard – rubbish I won’t be drinking, but then, neither will he!”. Prime Minister Peters said he’d be needing a course of Botox shortly, as the muscles in his face responsible for his trade mark grin are beginning to fibrillate from constant use.

    • The decrypter 2.1

      Wot bout paula?

    • ianmac 2.2

      Robert. Robert. Will it be true? Is it credible? Hope so but what will Jacinda be doing in your dream? Surely not bagging it like Paula!

      • Robert Guyton 2.2.1

        Well, she’d be really teed-off and as for the greens, it’d be rough going.

        • greywarshark

          Going at full power Robert G. Please hurry with the next episode. I feel like the eager USA residents waiting for the boat from UK for the next instalment of Charles Dickens’ Little Nell.

        • The decrypter

          Any handicap ratings listed in the clubhouse?–nick’s for example.

  3. Peter 3

    Post-Election Negotiations

    The Q&A panel suggested there should be set procedures for MMP party negotiations once all votes are counted. After all we should be better at it after 21 years of MMP one participant claimed. For example Russell Norman suggested that the party with the most votes lead initial negotiations rather than have a minority party manage “bids” from two large parties.

    So what ideas can be generated here, in this forum, to improve the status quo?

    • Andre 3.1

      Why? What is the problem with how things are currently being done?

      • Peter 3.1.1

        For many, including the panel, the tail wags the dog.

        • Andre

          It’s a fukn spineless dog that can’t manage a tail.

          • Robert Guyton

            “It’s a fukn spineless dog that can’t manage a tail.”
            Expression of the day!

        • One Anonymous Bloke

          What does that even mean? NZF policies are all going to be enacted by the new Parliament?

          The problem with having journalists interview one another is that none of them are particularly intelligent or insightful. That’s why we end up with these trite fortune cookies instead.

        • Xanthe

          Dont buy into that tail dog crap. The negotiations look fine its about giving the country the nearest policy match that we voted for. It is quite proper that the smaller parties should gain this influence thats why we have mmp

        • weka

          The only reason Peters is a problem is because the media gives him additional power and then Peters plays them. If the MSM were reporting to inform the public instead of being circus promoters and entertainers then we’d have a process that served us better.

          • Pete

            The problem is the media saying there is a problem.

            I’ve seen and heard so much stuff about Peters “holding the country to ransom” and implying he is doing terrible things.

            I thought he was doing what he has to do.

            And I am fairly certain that whatever is being said behind closed doors isn’t out here. So how can he be judged on that? At this stage judging him on policies we say are terrible is rubbish. He fairly got to that position with those policies. Like National and Labour got to their positions with policies some say are crap, destructive and dumb.

            • weka

              IMO Peters (historically) has been a big part of creating this situation, so I’m not that sympathetic to him personally (I rate him as one of the main reasons why we have a bastard version of MMP rather than a representative one). The MSM is out of control. They’re all power mongers.

              I’m not convinced there is anything significantly wrong with the conventions on how coalitions are formed though. I’m also not convinced that rules would force power mongers to behave better, or at least that this is the best way to get power mongers to behave better.

              I didn’t see Q and A.

        • Psycho Milt

          For many, including the panel, the tail wags the dog.

          Funny how all these right-wingers who are supposedly so familiar with how negotiations work in the private sector are suddenly horrified that one party to the negotiations might choose to exercise whatever leverage it has and somebody needs to do something about it. Harden the fuck up, you pathetic whiners.

          • tracey

            It would be funny if it weren’t important. They want rules about how to talk to other people…

          • red-blooded

            “Funny how all these right-wingers who are supposedly so familiar with how negotiations work…”

            Since when was Russell Norman (who made the suggestion) a right-winger?

            If Norman’s idea was followed this time, NZF would negotiate with National first and only talk to Lab+Greens if they couldn’t reach an arrangement with the Nats. They wouldn’t be able to weigh up different options and it seems to me that if they did move on to the “second choice’ negotiations they would have less leverage as that team would know the small party had used up its other option (while they would still have plenty of leverage in the first set of negotiations), so that would distort things somewhat.

            Personally, I don’t see a big problem and I’d be fine with them taking more time. I think Peters has created a perception of being a bit of a demagogue and a rogue, but presumably he’s learnt from his previous coalition experiences and he seems keen to handle things differently from 20 years ago. If anything, I think he’s rushing it this time. I can see an agreement in principal being reached by Thursday, but not an actual coalition deal. Confidence and supply may well be on the cards.

            • Psycho Milt

              Since when was Russell Norman (who made the suggestion) a right-winger?

              He’s a late jumper onto that particular bandwagon, which is otherwise stocked with right-wingers, and probably its least significant advocate.

            • Anne

              I can see an agreement in principal being reached by Thursday, but not an actual coalition deal. Confidence and supply may well be on the cards.

              If I was betting person that would be my choice. The fact he is adamant an agreement can be reached by Thursday suggests to me he has already made up his mind to go with C and S. The question is, will it be with National or Lab/Greens? No bets on that one.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 3.2

      Let elected representatives decide how they’ll represent their constituents in whichever way they choose. The “problem” with the status quo is impatience.

      Who’s going to police Russel’s attempt to legitimise the “moral mandate”?

    • Ad 3.3

      It would only need a simple signal from the Governor-General, within a timetable saying they had x days for the highest -polling party to propose a government, after which it goes to second place to have a go within x days.

      • Andre 3.3.1

        Why should any party be given negotiating privileges not given to all the other parties? Governing is about managing a variety of competing demands. I think the first grouping to show they can come together for a majority, in a completely unstructured negotiating arena, is genuinely the best outcome for the country. Put any preconditions on that and the chances of a not-the-best outcome increase.

        • Psycho Milt

          Yeah, I was surprised to see Russel Norman promoting the idea of privileging the party with the most votes. It would reward National for cannibalising its potential coalition partners and encourage Labour to do the same. Strictly a proposal for FPP enthusiasts, I would have thought.

      • Hell no. We’d never get a bloody government.

        We need to let the parties negotiate first.

    • ianmac 3.4

      In Negotiations with big countries like China or USA, tiny NZ manages to gain some advantages but the tail waggers would argue that NZ should jolly well sit down and do what those big countries dictate. Small players have no rights!

    • tracey 3.5

      I heard the all white male panel wanting rules for how to talk to each other.

      What a bizarre concept. It really is simple.

      After the election parties approach each other and have a conversation. This is called “talking”. Then if they want to, they raise the level of the talking to negotiation. Negotiation is talking with a view to making an Agreement.

      WHy is this so hard? I suspect part of the problem is having an all male, white panel for a start.

      • NewsFlash 3.5.1


        “After the election parties approach each other and have a conversation. This is called “talking”. Then if they want to, they raise the level of the talking to negotiation. Negotiation is talking with a view to making an Agreement.”

        That’s pretty well it, like minded parties will have more in common and commit sooner to negotiations.

        The J Key trained media is PATHETIC, has no idea about how to deal with the outcome of the election and has no info to pass on so just makes stuff up, surmises and in some cases tries to influence negotiations towards their beloved party.

  4. Cinny 4

    For nine long years national have unfunded and under valued our schools and educators.

    Schools have been struggling and asking for change for years, but national have not listened, rather they have done what ever they want to do and to hell with how our educators feel about it. NewsRoom have published an article today about it.

    The value of education in any society is enormous, education lifts people out of poverty, reduces crime, educated people raise economies and save lives.

    One of the greatest gifts we can give children is to help them feel valued and important, a way to do this is through education. But if we aren’t valuing our educators and schools, how is that making our children feel? If educators are underpaid and overworked and not even listened to, then the whole education system suffers.

    Living in hope for change and support in our education sector, one thing is for sure all the opposition parties value education, educators and kids, that gives me hope.

    In the meantime, if you are able, rock on down to your local school and get involved and volunteer. The rewards are enormous, and it helps to bring communities together and saves lives.

    NZ1st, Labour and Greens all want change in our education system, so do voters, more voted for education changes than keeping the system as it is.

    Three more sleeps, we need a win for the kids of NZ and those that educate them.

    • Pete 4.1

      It will be an enormous task to make the changes to our education system which need to be made.

      I fear the horse has bolted on having a society which sees learning and teaching as anything more than a paint-by-numbers consumer exercise. That means the focus is on peripheral consumer views of the issues to do with schooling, like teachers’ pay.

      Valuing teachers and schools is critical but the vital changes need to be in the acceptance of the essential notions about learning and the paramountcy of those. Arriving at the point by saying that ‘teachers are important’ is putting the cart before the horse.

      Great to see your sentiments!

      • Cinny 4.1.1

        Totally agree with you Pete about it being an enourmous task. But the upside is, teachers will probably leap at the chance to be heard and involved, am sure there won’t be a lack of enthusiasm in brainstorming any changes 😀

        Am finding out more about NZ1st MP’s and it turns out that five out of nine are teachers, this gives me hope for our education sector.

      • tracey 4.1.2

        Like Douglas and Richardson’s reforms it will take decades for anyone to reverse the damage the blind following of the business model has done to Tertiary and the blind desire to churn out little cogs in businesses wheels has done to Schooling. So many people wanting to impose their education system on generations that might as well live on a different planet by comparison.

    • ianmac 4.2

      Cinny @ 4. There is a good Education column, “Teachers fight to fix education system” by Teuila Fuatai on Newsroom.

      ““National standards, allowing charter schools in, removing incentives for 100 percent qualified teachers in Early Childhood Education, not adequately funding support staff, constantly cutting back on the operations grant – all these things all point in the same direction: that the system has an escalating crisis that needs to be fixed,” he says.”


  5. Ed 5

    Not a moral right to govern.
    Jack Vowles
    Professor Jack Vowles is in Victoria University of Wellington’s School of History, Philosophy, Political Science and International Relations.

    ‘A party ‘winning’ with a little over 44 percent of the votes cannot reasonably claim a moral right to govern: at best being the plurality winner designates being the first in the queue to seek that role. This advantages National. But stability and durability of a coalition or other government arrangement is enhanced by ideological proximity and congruence between the partners. This advantages the centre-left combination of Labour, New Zealand First and Green. A majority is 50 percent plus one. In 2017, as at every election since 1996, New Zealand has collectively continued to reject the option of having a single-party majority government.’


    • tracey 5.1

      Which is why we need a return to academics as experts, not former politicians and paid lobbyists

  6. Ad 6

    Stephanie Rodgers has had a go at this anti-immigration column by Duncan Garner.


    He concludes:

    “Until now we’ve had the world gate-crash our party. But now it is time to make it work for us.
    Let’s design our country to make it better for us. Bring in the people by all means but send them to where we need them. Let’s not give them what they need from us so easily.
    People are lining up to come here because we are the last paradise on Earth.
    Our small population is our winning card. Let’s not lose that.
    Everything we do we must ask ourselves this question: Will this make our country better for those living in it now?”

    Nice big swinging arm movements there.

    The project that I am in has approximately 65% foreigners, and would not have been possible without them.

    The suburb of another project I worked on was revived with fresh immigrant capital over a decade.

    The town with my holiday home has been transformed for good with foreigners choosing to live and invest here.

    Our immigration settings should always be up for debate, but it is not helpful for Duncan Garner to base the immigration debate on ethnicity.

    • Ed 6.1

      I posted about this last night.
      I agree with your summation. We need an intelligent discussion about immigration, identity and infrastructure.

      Duncan Garner has written an article backing Winston on immigration after his experience shopping in Kmart.
      It has provoked a lot of criticism and support on Stuff and twitter.



      Bomber Bradbury’s analysis is excellent.


      Bradbury also writes this article
      ‘Why we urgently need to investigate Chinese influence over National’

      ‘The shocking reality that the National Party is little more than a front for Chinese business interests demands far more attention than it gained…

      New research paper lays bare China’s influence campaign in New Zealand
      Concerns raised over political donations and directorships offered to former ministers and relatives
      Chinese-owned New Zealand dairy farms said to possibly being used to test advanced missile technology’


      • Bearded Git 6.1.1

        Bomber is spot on there-nicely observed.

        The only good thing you can say about Garner is that he does his own shopping. George Bush Senior lost masses of votes when he was shown shopping (playing the common man) at a supermarket during the 1993 campaign and being amazed at how the product scanners worked….clearly it was the first time he had stepped inside such an establishment.

      • RedLogix 6.1.2

        Mass immigration is a mixed bag; upside is growth, diversity, investment and cheap labour; downside … ask Maori. There are two narratives here and most people experience a mix of both.

        • marty mars

          Colonisation is a lot different to immigration. I wish we could keep the two subjects separate and I understand why allies are sought.

          • RedLogix

            Colonisation is a lot different to immigration.

            True there is a real difference; European colonisation was largely the outcome of the massive disparity of industrialisation and technology in that era, and a with this a sense of entitled superiority which enabled them to project and impose on indigenous peoples around the globe. In many ways the British Empire was a peak version of the old patterns of history, wars, migrations and displacement being an ancient story; although the sheer geographic extent of it was unprecedented.

            Colonisation in Aoteoroa came towards the end of that period, and followed a somewhat different pattern to say India or China. Here the vast majority of ordinary immigrants were escaping very poor prospects to build themselves a better life. They endured awful, dangerous journeys in the hope of a fresh start. While of course the elites plundered NZ and extracted as much wealth as they could in the usual fashion of Empires; over time something else happened … a whole new society dominated by sheer numbers of Europeans and their cultural habits arose to almost (but not completely) supplant what had existed before.

            While for example the local peoples of Africa, India and China remained dominant, in the Americas and Australiasia they did not, with colonisation culminating in the physcial, economic and cultural displacement of indigenous peoples almost everywhere.

            Colonisation is an essentially extractive process, a giant wealth pump that siphons resources back to the elites at the centre of empire. Immigration is the movement of peoples, usually to either escape active persecution, or to seek a better life elsewhere; this being an ancient feature of human life for probably millions of years.

            Yet ultimately the end result can be very similar; in 1840 Maori were still by far the dominant population and few who signed the ToW could have imagined that within decades they’d be fighting wars to defend what remained of their land rights, or that by the turn of the century the Australian phrase “smoothing the pillow of a dying race” would enter the lexicon of their experience.

            Already it impacts our elections, much of provincial NZ moved distinctly left, while Auckland now some 26% Asian/Indian, voted solidly for the status quo. Already on both sides of the Tasman there are real concerns around the CCCP’s projection of not so very soft power into our political systems.

            That has to be Garner’s core question; where are we going? Because there really is no upper limit to the number of people from all over the world who would like to immigrate here. It’s not unrealistic to imagine a New Zealand in our lifetimes with a population exceeding 10 million; consisting of maybe 1m Maori/Polynesian, 3m Caucasian and another 6m from Asia.

            Nothing inherently wrong with this; but I find it hard to imagine such a change will have zero political and social consequences.

            • marty mars

              A couple of points

              The mindset of a colonists and an immigrants are almost the opposite of each other. One comes to squash existing peoples the other to join. Quite different. The average settler was extractive not just the colonising elites. i don’t buy the innocent running away from exploitation so ended up exploiting others line.

              I understand the fear people have about asians taking over but they arent and won’t imo not while the euros are dominant.

              • The mindset of a colonists and an immigrants are almost the opposite of each other. One comes to squash existing peoples the other to join. Quite different.

                [Citation needed]

                I understand the fear people have about asians taking over but they arent and won’t imo not while the euros are dominant.

                Except it seems that they are (see Bradbury’s Chinese Influence on National).

                These are questions that need to be asked and get answered and not just dismissed by what you believe to be true.

              • RedLogix

                One comes to squash existing peoples the other to join.

                A good distinction; I’m sure that was the experience of Maori during the late 1800’s, but it’s harder to know if it was the intention of the hundreds of thousands of very poor Irish, Scottish, Welsh and others who made perilous journey in tiny ships to the most remote land on the face of the earth … to ‘squash the Maoris’.

                I’ve read stories of families who’d hold a wake for those departing, because effectively they’d never be seen or likely heard from again.

                Now I agree the elites certainly arrived with a different mindset; but they were always a tiny minority. The vast majority were very ordinary immigrants who where effectively just displaced peoples themselves and arrived with no more intent than to escape the colonisation they’d already lived through.

                We have our stories too.

                And yes the euros are numerically dominant over the whole of NZ at the moment, but barely so in Auckland. And within a few decades Maori/Polynesian/Euro might well be a minority.

                Again if you asked all the Kaumatua who signed the ToW in 1840 did they want within 60 years for their mokopuna would to be reduced to a marginalised minority in their own land … I think most would have said no. And would that have made them all racists?

                • Yes it was a difficult journey to escape persecution and they came to a land denuded of indigenous people and culture. All they could do was take up the plough after putting the gun down, to make the land productive so that their family could thrive. Better than letting it waste and spoil. /semi sarc ☺

                  • RedLogix

                    As you may recall, I have an ‘adopted’ Chinese son. He’s now an airline pilot in Xian City, flying 737’s four times a week on a triangular night route. He started as the orphaned son of rice farming peasants and has done well. It took time to get to know each other, but a shared interest in aviation and scary youtube videos gave us a lot in common. 🙂

                    He already had an anglicised first name and when he asked us a few months back for permission to use my surname as well … because he regarded us as his second family … I was remarkably moved.

                    Conversations with him could be unsettling though. Flying over the vast apparently empty expanses of Australia while he was training here, it seemed to him that it was very much underutilised. He was very clear that lots of Chinese could transform it all into much more productive uses rather than let it ‘waste and spoil’. /Not sarc at all.

              • weka

                “The mindset of a colonists and an immigrants are almost the opposite of each other. One comes to squash existing peoples the other to join.”

                True, but there is a third dynamic here. We have a neoliberal internal government that has an imperialist mindset and is in charge of immigration policy. So this isn’t simply about what immigrants want when they come here, it’s about who is choose who gets to come, how they come, and why.

                “I understand the fear people have about asians taking over but they arent and won’t imo not while the euros are dominant.”

                I don’t want to focus on Asians, for obvious reasons, but afaik if you increase a population fast enough from immigration then the culture of that society will change. The issue here is whether that matters, not that it’s not happening.

                • I think it is all about the Asians actually and the fear of Asians that some euros have.

                  • weka

                    Where I live the immigration issues are from Europeans, Brits and Americans. And Aucklanders. /shrug. Which isn’t to say that there aren’t some serious racism issues in NZ around Pākehā fears of Asians, but I think it’s a mistake to work on that being the *only problem here.

                    • Yes of course you are correct. Same here. Part of the issue for me is pulling all the individual strands out – a big poster would be good. Immigration, foreign ownership, refugees, cultural solidification and openness, racism, names of things, infrastructure, city verses country, home ownership, wages, neoliberalism, and so on

                      so many strands arggggg…

                  • There probably are some people who have a fear of Asian culture taking over the dominant English culture.

                    Personally, I’m concerned with an excess of foreigners making the people already here even more poverty stricken. And that’s already happening.


                    I’m also concerned with how many people NZ can sustainably support. We don’t know that at all and yet we’re letting in an unlimited number of people.

                    • Valid concerns imo.

                    • RedLogix

                      There probably are some people who have a fear of Asian culture taking over the dominant English culture.

                      That’s not wholly unreasonable; after all is this not exactly what Maori have been saying for the past hundred years or more?

                      No culture is all good or all bad, they’re all a random mix of social habits that arose from the accidents of history and geography. Each has strong points, and each has less attractive aspects. Typically we like to be proud of what we’re good at, and have massive blind spots around the rest.

                      And when we look at an outsider culture we tend to be most irked by their blind spots and weaknesses, and much slower to appreciate what they do well.

                      Because most people are very change resistant the process of getting used to each other, building on our strengths and discarding our failings is a slow process that cannot be easily rushed.

                • RedLogix

                  Exactly … it’s not immigration that is the problem. We are ALL immigrants of one sort or another. But the nature and rate of that immigration can easily change a society in ways people are not ready for, nor desire.

                  Going back to the Maori experience; many of the very early European arrivals (prior to 1840 most actually arrived from America), integrated very tightly with the Maori iwi they encountered. From the Maori perspective this was not a problem at all; indeed many rather valued their ‘white Maori’ because it facilitated economic and political opportunities.

                  And it shouldn’t be forgotten that Maori and Europeans have intermarried at remarkably high rates; that while Maori and Europeans maintain quite distinct cultures at a personal level there is a huge amount of cross-over.

                  Now if hypothetically Europeans had arrived at a relatively low rate during the 1800’s, and most had continued to integrate into Maori society as the early pattern indicated … the entire question of ‘colonisation’ would never have occurred.

                  An imperfect example might be to point to the Samoan/German experience … while it clearly started out as colonisation, in the aftermath of WW1 the rate of immigration slowed dramatically, and the two populations then had time to successfully merge into a distinct culture of it’s own.

                  • There are wildly different Māori experiences that the ones you have heard of.

                    There is no blending into a distinct new culture – that is just another assimilation fantasy imo.

                    I’m not sure why you are driving down this road – i thought you had made your point way up the thread. As a peaceful gesture I am disengaging.

                    • RedLogix

                      that is just another assimilation fantasy imo.

                      If your definition of ‘assimilation’ is based on your experience of euros demographically overwhelming maori, then absolutely. The idea that Maori should all become ‘well behaved brown skinned Euros’ is of course repugnant.

                      But over time distinct cultures that flourish side by side, DO influence each other, and intermarriage DOES generate whole new patterns. In the long run both cultures finish up the stronger for it, initially separate and ultimately as something new.

                      I quite liked Stan Grant’s take on this:


      • Carolyn_nth 6.1.3

        Actually, I don’t think it’s the fact of there being self checkouts that is KMart’s problem – it’s that there are not enough of them.

        they do still have some person operated checkouts, and some staff overseeing the self checkouts.

        the queues at St Lukes’ Kmart the last few times I’ve been there were horrendous. At first I thought it was because of a sale.

        Basically, if they are selling that much stuff, to that many people, they need more checkouts – and that would require more money spent on checkouts, and more staff to over see them.

        • Draco T Bastard

          Basically, if they are selling that much stuff, to that many people, they need more checkouts – and that would require more money spent on checkouts, and more staff to over see them.

          And now extend that to all of our infrastructure.

      • Bill 6.1.4

        Bomber Bradbury’s analysis is excellent. and Bomber is spot on there-nicely observed.

        Nah. Bomber’s being as much a useless donkey dick as Duncan Garner.

        Here’s Bomber.

        he’s (Garner) trying to articulate the frustration many Aucklander’s feel at the cramped infrastructure groaning under the weight of a surge in immigration numbers and the total inability of Government to show any leadership by properly funding the migration growth which they are promoting.

        I’ll spell this one out.

        There is crap infrastructure and there is immigration. The insidious and unspoken line (it’s common enough and embraced by NZ Labour among others) is that immigration is somehow responsible for the infra-structure being crap…and for it getting getting more crap.

        But it’s not.

        The infra-structure is crap because successive governments have neglected it. Infra-structure is crap because of bad management; a failure on the part of the politicians who presume to control and manage such things.

        But hey. Let’s point the finger “over there” at past and present immigrants instead, some of who could have been offered very good jobs laying in and maintaining all that infrastructure that successive governments have paid fuck all attention to (beyond flogging bits to private concerns that could extract massive profits off the back of steady deterioration).

        And as a footnote not an aside, you may or may not have noticed that proposed immigration settings are set along lines of class (ie, huge bias against low skilled or poor immigrants)…which kind of defeats the purpose (if such a purpose exists) of getting basic infra-structure up to scratch.

        • Carolyn_nth

          Not to mention that the arrangements in Kmart are not about infrastructure, but due to commercial decisions.

          Kmart are currently treating paying customers in a pretty shoddy way. The queues around the store I’ve been to are crazy.

          • Draco T Bastard

            Not to mention that the arrangements in Kmart are not about infrastructure, but due to commercial decisions.

            It’s privately owned infrastructure but it’s still infrastructure.

            Kmart are currently treating paying customers in a pretty shoddy way.

            And there’s absolutely nothing that the customers can do about it.

        • weka

          I agree that lack of planning for infrastructure is not the fault of immigrants. It’s also true that there are natural limits to growth, and there is a relationship between the number of people and what can support them in the physical world and whether that is problematic.

        • Draco T Bastard

          There is crap infrastructure and there is immigration. The insidious and unspoken line (it’s common enough and embraced by NZ Labour among others) is that immigration is somehow responsible for the infra-structure being crap…and for it getting getting more crap.

          No it’s not.

          The point is that the immigration hasn’t been planned for and the necessary infrastructure built. Then there’s the influence it has on wages – you know, the sub-par wages we have because there’s so many people being imported by businesses specifically to keep wages down.

          In other words, the cost of the immigration hasn’t been covered.

        • tracey

          Garner and Bradbury seem to skip past who creates the pressure on the infrastructure which is not the immigrants.

          Remember the guy who came in on the Investment visa? Was going to build that hotel in Epsom? After 5-10 years has not? Now, how hard to have in place a law that says if you do not do what you promise you forfeit the money you had to bring in. It goes tot he Govt coffers and you get PR or Citizenship rescinded. That would be easy if there was political will. BUT it happens a bit.

          Secondly, we have the kiwifruit industry brazenly not giving migrant workers contracts and paying under minimum wage (over 50%) of them. That is deliberate law breaking to take advantage of vulnerable people seeking a better life. It is also interrupting the blessed market the right loves SO much. IF there are not enough workers, wages should go up under market forces.

          Instead they are deliberately driven down. Single people on benefits would DO seasonal jobs IF

          1. The pay was better
          2. They could get straight back on a benefit when the work finished

          As long as it takes WINZ weeks or months to start paying someone coming off seasonal work it would be a foolish person who leaves it to take a short term job. When you add in the weeks or months to get back on support the real hourly rate of the seasonal work is well below $10 an hour.

        • The Chairman

          Hold on, Bill.

          I haven’t heard Labour blame our insufficient infrastructure on immigration.

          Labour’s argument is, due to our lacking infrastructure we need to take a breather on immigration, giving us time to play catch up.

    • weka 6.2

      “Our immigration settings should always be up for debate, but it is not helpful for Duncan Garner to base the immigration debate on ethnicity.”

      Or to do so in a way that is pretty blatantly racist (I will grant him this, I don’t think he realised he was being racist. Time for him to learn though).

    • greywarshark 6.3

      Individual advantages from immigration doesn’t mean that Duncan Garner’s points as displayed in Ad’s comment aren’t correct. They are valid points and need to be thought about and acted on.

      The application of rational thinking should not be drowned by sentiment and past success. Now we need something different. You only have to look at the whole picture to see that.

    • The project that I am in has approximately 65% foreigners, and would not have been possible without them.


      It would have been possible if we’d developed our people and economy rather than throwing it away via neo-liberalism.

      The suburb of another project I worked on was revived with fresh immigrant capital over a decade.

      Don’t need foreign money to utilise NZ’s resources. For that we need NZ money.

      The town with my holiday home has been transformed for good with foreigners choosing to live and invest here.

      So? Auckland has been badly transformed because of all the foreigners choosing to live here.

      Our immigration settings should always be up for debate, but it is not helpful for Duncan Garner to base the immigration debate on ethnicity.

      He didn’t. He based it upon there being too bloody many and that we’re not planning for it.

    • NewsFlash 6.5

      A classic example of unfettered immigration, is the experience of the Fijian’s, in a democracy, where the immigrants end up out numbering the citizens, the migrants can set up their own political parties and win with a majority in democratic elections.

      There are many other example as well through northern Africa.

      Countries with relatively small populations are at serious risk from overpopulating their countries with migrants.

      NZ has a very small population compared to China or India, for either or both of those 2 countries to lose 100 million, they wouldn’t even register on population numbers, but if they all arrived at NZ…….

      Refugees should be the first choice of migrants to be allowed to enter NZ, a good example of this is the new Green’s member.

      • Daveosaurus 6.5.1

        NZ is already in a situation where immigrants outnumber indigenous people by something like 5 to 1 or greater.

    • DH 6.6

      “The town with my holiday home has been transformed for good with foreigners choosing to live and invest here.”

      I can’t believe I read that here at The Standard. How about you ask the locals whose town it is what they think.

  7. greywarshark 7

    Latest lecture from the Bruce Jesson Foundation. As with all it will be interesting – you lucky Aucklanders and even Hamiltonians, don’t miss it.

    Register to hear Tūhoe leader Tāmati Kruger’s 2017 Bruce Jesson Lecture – At

    A leader of the Tūhoe people’s drive for self-determination, Tamati Kruger, will give the 2017 Bruce Jesson Memorial Lecture on 31 October. (Tuesday)
    Tue, October 31, 2017 5:30 PM – 8:30 PM

    OGHLecTh (102-G36)
    Corner of Princes St & Waterloo Quadrant
    The University of Auckland

    The lecture, at the University of Auckland, will be a historic opportunity for Tūhoe to explain their philosophy of Mana Motuhake/Self-Determination to a national audience, and to report on how the approach is working out in practice since the iwi signed a settlement with the Crown in 2013.

    The settlement transferred management of the Tūhoe homeland in the former Urewera National Park to a new entity Te Urewera, which Kruger chairs, run jointly by the Crown and Tūhoe.

    It also agreed in principle that Tūhoe should run its own social services, including healthcare and education, for its own people.

    So far Tūhoe has opened a health clinic at Taneatua and plans two more, it runs youth and counselling services, offers educational scholarships, and is becoming involved in wider educational and social services.

    Tāmati Kruger was educated at Victoria University in Wellington, where he also tutored in te reo Māori and was involved in the early days if the Te Reo Māori Society in the 1970s.

    He was the chief Tūhoe negotiator in the settlement process and also chairs the tribal body Tūhoe Te Uru Taumatua.

    The lecture will be held at the University of Auckland and you can register here.

    Support Us

    We rely on your support to make our activities possible. Please become a supporter today by following this link to our Contribution Page
    October 2017

    2016 Lecture

    A video of Lisa Marriot’s 2016 lecture, ‘Are we all equal in NZ?’, is here.

    Past Lectures & Awards

    Details of past lectures may be found here. Details of past prizewinners may be found here and here.


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    c/- Politics & International Relations
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  8. Andre 8

    Twitterfinger J. Putinpussy barfs up yet another obstacle to actually getting anything done. By picking a fight with someone he really needs onside, but has zero leverage over.


    Some analysis of what this means about his strategy.


    • Macro 8.1

      You mean he has no strategy! Simply reacts in a vengeful way…
      Based on all of the evidence of Trump’s first nine months in office, it’s impossible to conclude that he has any sort of comprehensive strategy or theory of the case. He acts (or reacts) and sees what happens. There’s no bigger plan that we’re not privy to. There’s really no plan at all.
      Loved this Tweet from Corker in response:
      “”It’s a shame the White House has become an adult day care center. Someone obviously missed their shift this morning,” “

      • Andre 8.1.1

        It’s minor relief to be watching them spending their time taking potshots at each other rather than working as a team to implement their agenda.

        • Macro

          Well that is certainly true! Executive orders is about all that has been achieved and even then may are subject to litigation. I can’t say the “beautiful, and wonderful” Tax plan has much hope of success either when the populous wake up to the realisation as to who are the ones going to benefit… and it certainly isn’t them!
          The stacking of the EPA with Climate denialists is unfortunately having an effect, and the run down of funding in social services and eduction, and FEMA. The flow on will be increasing dissatisfaction and resentment to the administration and they will have a very difficult job at re-election in 2018 and almost no hope in 2020.
          A recent poll has the Chump on only 24% approval rating and even 33% of Repugnents disapprove as well.

          • Andre

            The big thing they’ve achieved is stacking the courts. McConnell refusing to confirm Obama appointments left a huge backlog of vacancies that they’ve been fairly quickly filling with Heritage Foundation recommendations.

      • joe90 8.1.2

        Simply reacts in a vengeful way

        President Caligula, and no one in GOP has the stones to hold him accountable.

        President Trump told the head of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Seema Verma to deny a request from the Republican-controlled state of Iowa to fix their health-care marketplace, according to The Washington Post.

        According to the Post, Iowa officials sought for months to get federal permission to fix health insurance markets in their state, but they were shut down by Trump administration officials.

        Critics of the president say Trump’s unusual move is a part of the administration’s effort to undermine ObamaCare


  9. greywarshark 9

    We have unemployment in NZ and under-employment too in high numbers. Yet the employers can’t find retail workers with enough ability and bleat they need to bring people in from overseas because they have new ideas. This was the plaint of Massey Uni professional on RadioNZ – couldn’t find so here is Scoop on it.

    Professor Elms says the survey also showed continued concerns about skill shortages in the sector. The top two most frequently-mentioned human resource priorities in both 2016 and 2017 were staffing and training.

    “There is concern that New Zealand doesn’t have a strong enough talent pipeline. We definitely have skills gaps in buying, merchandising and digital, and this will only be exacerbated as retailers compete with the likes of Amazon,” he says.

    “The skills and competencies required are becoming a lot more sophisticated – retailers need staff that understand how business models are changing if they are to successfully integrate their physical and digital platforms.”

    This from Google:
    Bachelor of Retail and Business Management … – Massey University
    The multi-billion dollar retail sector is New Zealand’s second-largest for employment, responsible for seamlessly and endlessly delivering goods and services to …

    NZ Herald: New Zealand’s Latest News, Business, Sport, Weather …
    2 days ago – carmen.hall@nzme.co.nz. @ Bay_Times … Rotorua business leaders plan a national campaign to attract skilled workers. ROTORUA … NEW ZEALAND · Migrants struggling to find jobs. 12 Sep, 2017 10: …. Data shows retail spending on cards in Tauranga jumped 6.4% for year to June. ….. That was hard but I can’t imagine …

    From RadioNZ
    In the latest bid to solve the construction industry’s critical labour shortage, a new campaign starts today with the aim of attracting up to 20,000 foreign workers. The website LookSee Build New Zealand has 20 companies signed up looking for new staff as the pressure mounts to meet a projected demand for almost 60,000 skilled workers in just five years.

    and this from USA
    Companies can’t find workers to rebuild after Harvey and Irma | Don’t …
    4 days ago – More people were looking for jobs , particularly men. … Business owners say a lack of skilled workers who can pass a drug test has stalled their growth .
    Companies can’t find workers to rebuild after Harvey and Irma
    By Danielle Paquette | The Washington Post Oct 4, 2017 Updated Oct 4, 2017

    This from USA, where we seem to import ideas and policies from as we have adopted a drug testing regime which seems to be draconian and unnecessary for most employers.

    I think they all need fresh ideas.

  10. The Chairman 10

    Worth a look, when you have time

    • RedLogix 10.1

      Adani are virtually bankrupt and the entire thing is a scam to get money out of the Qlnd govt to prop up their failing investments elsewhere.

      Tellingly none of the big banks will touch them, and the big automation player I know, who’d normally have people dedicated to winning a project of this scale aren’t bothering to waste time on it.

  11. NewsFlash 11

    This week is the week we find out if the infamous Barnaby Joyce loses his job, and his deputy and a few others as well.

    One decision has already been made for the One Nation party candidate Robertson, the Flat earth believer, the Supreme court found he was not eligible, ignorance is not a defense, grim times for the Turnbull Govt with only a majority of one and 20 consecutive negative polls for him, the latest one seeing him fall another 2 points

  12. Kay 12

    I’ve just finished filling out the 12 pages of Temporary Additional Support Re-Application paperwork, a joyful 3 monthly ritual in order to be able to pay the rent.

    Anyone familiar with these forms will know about that threatening sounding Q.20 :
    “You and your partner must take all necessary steps to increase income or reduce costs where possible. Please indicate where what steps you and/or your partner have taken to get other assistance, reduce costs or increase income.”

    I was very tempted to write in “voted for Greens on their platform of raising benefit levels.” Would that constitute an attempt to increase income when one has no other ways of doing so?
    Unfortunately I was too scared to- because even if the satire is over their heads, there is a very real fear these days that the slightest criticism against the system, and I’m implicating benefit rates here of course, will cross the desk of the wrong person ie one who could make things very difficult.

    Looking forward to running the security gauntlet, and a long queue at the office, just to get the stamped receipt for said papers, then hope to god they don’t mess up again like last time. Multiply this scenario for 100s of 1000s of NZers…

    • weka 12.1

      Lol, I can understand the temptation (and agree with the need for caution).

      Re the office visit, would be interesting if beneficiaries kept time records of what is involved in keeping a benefit.

      I post my forms in, but make sure I always keep copies for myself.

      • Kay 12.1.1

        Weka, you’re brave posting in forms. I did once, many moons ago and they were never seen again. Best practice these days is to hand deliver- if practically possible- physically hand them over and request a stamped signed receipt. They usually photocopy the front page and hand that back.

        The annual DB confirmation paperwork can only be mailed back to somewhere in Auckland so no choice there and I’m terrified because there’s no way of knowing it arrived until a) your payments keep going in as usual or b) you get the letter saying it’s been stopped. And they wonder why the increasing rates of severe anxiety?

        • weka

          I used to hand deliver and get it date stamped until I got to ill to do so. So needs must. I take the view that if I post the forms and they get lost, it’s WINZ’s fault and it’s on them to sort it out. If my benefit was lapsing because of their fuck ups, then it’s time to get senior management and advocates or CLC lawyers involved. None of that is probably any less time consuming or stressful than what you are doing though 🙁

          What’s DB?

    • tracey 12.2

      Sigh. I am so sorry you have to go through this.

      On a slightly humourous note

      ” You and your partner must take all necessary steps to increase income or reduce costs where possible. Please indicate where what steps you and/or your partner have taken to get other assistance, reduce costs or increase income.” ”

      I think they cut and paste this for everything… Principals, DHBs, Tertiaries, Rape Prevention Orgs… just substitute partner

      • Kay 12.2.1

        Good point Tracey…anything to justify not giving money they do actually have to people and organisations that need it.

    • beatie 12.3

      They also change the rules without feeling the need to inform their ‘clients’.

      In order to receive the supported living payment (the old invalid benefit), I had to supply a medical certificate. The doctor needed to indicate how long the med cert was for, ie 2 years, five years or never. Three years ago my rheumatologist signed me off as never needing another one. However last year Winz requested a new one. When I phoned to ask why, I was told someone would call me back. subsequently I received a voicemail threatening to look into my part-time employment 3 years ago.

      Apparently everyone on SLP now needs to provide a med cert every two years. Next year, at 64 yrs, I will have to provide another one. This has no useful purpose and is outright harassment.

  13. NewsFlash 13

    All those who said waiting for the outcome of the special votes was a waste of time and made no difference were wrong.

    Winston Peters said he wanted to wait until after the results of specials as they could change things significantly, Bill and the media disagreed, they said no significant change, however, Peters, after the release of the specials, announced that the outcome was SIGNIFICANT.
    Maybe, to extrapolate, the significance indicates a more likely outcome for one side and not the other, my view is that L/G block is now in good contention, based on Peters putting so much emphasis on the SIGNIFICANCE of the specials.

    Optimism? YES

    Reality? we’ll still have to wait and see.

  14. Plan B 15


    Conrad selling off-the-plan Auckland apartments for NZ residency

    This seems very strange to me.

  15. Ed 16

    Welcome to new Zealand – neo-liberal hellhole.
    No wonder we have health issues in this country.
    No doubt Katherine Rich pimps for these organisations.

    ‘Kiwi kids are exposed to 27 junk food advertisements a day, study finds.’

    In a world-first study by Otago and Auckland universities, 168 children from across the Wellington region, aged between 11 and 13, wore cameras around their necks for four days, capturing what they saw every seven seconds.

    In one case, a poster for Coca-Cola hung on a classroom wall. In others, marketing for sugary or energy drinks on the sides of dairies or on the ends of buses plagued their journey home.

    “The consequence of that is obesity,” she said. “[Kids] are twice as likely to see junk food marketing as healthy marketing, it goes against that effort to help children maintain their weight.”

    Ministry of Health statistics show 11 per cent of New Zealand children aged between 2 and 14 are obese, and a further 22 per cent are overweight.

    Sugary drinks, fast food, confectionary and snack food advertisements were the most common found in the study. Product packaging was the dominant platform, followed by signs.

    In an effort to reduce exposure, the researchers are calling on the incoming Government to impose a sugary drinks tax, regulate junk food marketing and impose rules that would see only healthy foods sold in schools.

    They would also like to see a ban on junk food advertising in sports, such as Gatorade’s partnership with the All Blacks.’


  16. Ed 17

    Hidden cost of feeding grain to farm animals to hit $1.32tn a year

    ‘Our habit of feeding human foods, such as grain and soya, to farm animals will cost us $1.32tn (£1tn) a year by 2050 globally, according to environmental campaigners.

    The hidden costs of the industrial farming system are vast, and urgently need to be brought into clear focus, Peter Stevenson of Compassion in World Farming told the Extinction and Livestock conference in London. “There’s a worrying disconnect between the retail price of food and the true cost of production. As a result, food produced at great environmental cost can appear to be cheaper than more sustainably produced alternatives.”

    “Cheap food is something we pay for three times, once at the checkout, again in tax subsidies and again in the enormous clean up cost to our health and environment,” his colleague Philip Lymbery pointed out.

    We are paying for soil erosion, water pollution, biodiversity loss, climate change, and a multitude of other impacts which are passed on to the public by farmers and the sector, the conference heard. For example, our current rate of soil loss costs £400bn a year globally, according to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations; the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) has estimated that water pollution in six EU states alone costs €2bn-5bn a year; and according to the European Environment Agency the current rate of biodiversity loss is reducing global GDP by 3% every year.’…….


  17. Ed 18

    Every Single Piece Of Plastic Ever Made Still Exists.

    ……..’Because plastic lasts for so long, every single piece of plastic ever made still exists, and will continue existing for at least 500 years. To put that in context, if Leonardo da Vinci had drunk water from a plastic bottle when he was painting the Mona Lisa, that bottle would not have fully decomposed yet.

    Every day, more and more plastic is produced, used and thrown away. In countries where disposable cups are made of plastic, for example, it may take only seconds for one to leave the package, be used, and end up in a trash can. So much plastic is being consumed that there is an area bigger than France of throw-away plastic swirling at all depths in the North Pacific Ocean. It has become so ubiquitous that birds are using it to build their nests.’……


    • NewsFlash 18.1

      Not quite true, some plastics are organically based and used in the agricultural industries, others are very susceptible to UV corrosion which do break down to their base products a bit like rusting steel.

      Something that annoys me, is that everyone blames the plastic bottles for ending up in the water ways and sea, yet, the bottles themselves are not responsible, they didn’t leap out of someone’s hand and into the river, but the PEOPLE discarding them are, surly there is a degree of responsibility of humans to care for the environment by recycling and discarding in the proper manner, plastic water bottles are a very good method of hydration, they are also relatively safe and bacteria free, ideal in emergencies. Plastic bottle manufacturers recycle a very high percentage returned bottles.

      If you look at some of the less developed countries, where waste disposal is non existent and the main means of disposal is to simply “biff it out the window”, there is no system for garbage collection, unfortunately the migrants from these countries when emigrating to more civilized countries don’t usually adapt to the changes and values and continue to litter as they always have, I’ve actually seen graphic evidence of this in some overseas cities in areas of particularly high migrant residents from these under developed countries.

      The micro beads used in cosmetics are a real problem too, with some countries banning products containing micro beads.

      • greywarshark 18.1.1

        I remember a past Parliamenary Commissioner for the Environment Dr Williams, in 2002 praise the efforts of the Mayor of a Brazilian city for cleaning up the city and making it a people-friendly more attractive place.

        Morgan Williams (ecologist) – Wikipedia
        John Morgan Williams (born 25 March 1943), known as Dr. J. Morgan Williams or Morgan Williams, is a New Zealand ecologist and agricultural scientist who served as the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment from 1997 to March 2007. … Greening the City: Bringing Biodiversity Back into the Urban

        I think that they encouraged people to hand in rubbish from the streets and favellas for physical, practical reward, such as food, perhaps some eggs. It made a big difference. Also they had covered bus stops made in clear plastic so people were covered and crime was discouraged. That would be much appreciated.

        Curitiba – Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment
        On the southern plateau of Brazil one city, Curitiba, has lifted itself out of tough … Brazilian Ambassador to New Zealand and his staff for assisting with visits and complimentary visas to Brazil. … mercial competition models, separation of poli- cies from ….. Morgan. Transport corridor. Section through transport corridor (IPPUC).

        I think anyone who comes to this blog would be interested in this report. I urge you to read it because it deals with many things that way heavily on this country now, and might be helpful to consider points for Auckland. Probably the Auckland activist group already have many similar policies but lack the breadth of mind in the elites to effect change for the lumpenproletariat.

  18. Once was Tim 19

    Just an observation: For an OK bank – certainly not amongst the worst, ASB’s Chief Jee Bung Wunder is a complete fucking irriot (going forward).

  19. Ian 20

    The greens have never been in power and don’t want to be

    [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]

    • In Vino 20.1

      Wow, Ian. You really sound like a person with deep understanding and penetrating analytical thought.

    • Robert Guyton 20.2

      Blast those impotent Greens! They said they wanted to go into Government with Labour, but by the Powers of Ian, it seems they don’t !

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