Open Mike 10/09/2018

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, September 10th, 2018 - 265 comments
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265 comments on “Open Mike 10/09/2018”

  1. ”Aotearoa New Zealand’ is being increasingly used to label our country, by parties, unions, organisations and companies, as well as in general use. To an extent this is probably by popular use, but is there a stealth campaign behind it as well?

    I like Aotearoa as a name, and don’t have any empathy with ‘New Zealand’ – we are not new, and we have no obvious connection to Zealand, an island in Denmark.

    But I think we should have an open debate about the name we want to use officially for our country, and make a democratic decision.

    I think this should be done separately to and without the complications and delays of other decisions like flag, anthem, constitution and republic.

    More: https://yournz.org/2018/09/10/creeping-aotearoa-whakamokamoka-aotearoa/

    • marty mars 1.1

      nice post for Te Wiki o te Reo Māori peter?

    • Incognito 1.2

      Whoever wrote that has put their galling ignorance on display and thus has lost any credibility in any debate about the name of Aotearoa – New Zealand.

      Here’s something for their education:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand#Etymology

      Talking of the Dutch, the name of their country is synonymously The Netherlands or Holland; it reflects their history.

      • KJT 1.2.1

        Pete George has been fence sitting for so long, his brain has been disconnected.

        One day he might figure out why he has been getting those electric shocks.

        • Pete George 1.2.1.1

          Perhaps you should read before jumping to a stupid conclusion. My positions as expressed here are nothing like fence sitting.

          All you’ve taken is take a lazy jump on the bash wagon, with brain disconnected from the issues, like a fence sitter perhaps.

      • Kay 1.2.2

        @Incognito- my sentiments exactly. nearly lost my coffee at the mention of Denmark! We might have been taught a rather sanitised & incorrect version of NZ history in the state primary school system in the 70s, but I clearly remember learning the correct Zeeland origin even back then. I wonder where OP was educated?

      • dukeofurl 1.2.3

        Holland has a distinct identity within the Netherlands as ( now) 2 provinces,
        having the main cities and large portion of the total population.

      • Pete George 1.2.4

        Lame attempt to try to shut down debate.

        I’m aware that Zealand (Denmark spelling) is a variation on Zeeland (Dutch spelling). Neither have much connection with Aotearoa, and no connection with the vast majority of inhabitants here.

        • te reo putake 1.2.4.1

          Pretty sure James Cook wasn’t Danish, Pete. Cook was the one who Anglicised the Dutch name. You have heard of Cook, right? I only ask because you don’t appear to have heard of Abel Tasman, who was the first European to name our country.

          btw, the Danish spelling of Zeeland/Zealand is actually Sjælland.

          • Pete George 1.2.4.1.1

            Now you’re joining the dick brigade. Another petty and pathetic diversion. I thought you had grown out of it but apparently not.

            • te reo putake 1.2.4.1.1.1

              Pete, you’re the one being the dick here. You were wrong about the etymology of Zealand, and can’t bring yourself to admit it. Sad, really.

              • McFlock

                butbutbut there’s an island called “Zealand” that is Dutch Danish (lols muphry) and they’re spelled the same, they sound the same, so they must be the same.

                We will make a movie of his discovery: it will be called The Secret of homoNym

              • I wasn’t wrong about anything. I didn’t claim anything about the etymology of Zealand. You jumped in too quickly, or, knowing you, there could be a motive behind it, there often is when there’s attack-the-messenger type diversions here.

                • McFlock

                  we are not new, and we have no obvious connection to Zealand, an island in Denmark.

                  Two points: friend of mine moved to Ireland. Her house (not posh) is older than the country she was born in.

                  Secondly, the Danish island has nothing to do with our country’s name, so why bring it up?

                • Incognito

                  I didn’t claim anything about the etymology of Zealand.

                  Oh come on, pull the other one! FYI, etymology is the study and history of words and that includes names. Please give it a rest before you embarrass yourself even further.

                  This is not encouraging “some debate”, it is an one man’s trip into a world where words have no agreed meaning and common rules for debate have gone out of the window too. So, please stop bleating about people wanting to shut down your ‘debate’, as it only exists inside your head.

            • marty mars 1.2.4.1.1.2

              you balls it up peter – just admit that the whole thing was rubbish and let it go. You tried to stir and you got caught out by some basic NZ history – it could happen to anyone lol

              • I tried to encourage some debate, but you know that isn’t welcome here, is it mm. A bit sad really, but you seem to like it that way.

                • marty mars

                  Debate is good – look around, there have been hundreds of comments today yet it seems only you have packed a sad. Truth is you don’t really want a debate because if you did you would frame your comments to get that but you don’t do you. Even after years of people trying to help you, you still stubbornly think you know best and everyone else has to bow to you and you are still pretending everyone else is at fault when really we all know the truth.

                  • “only you have packed a sad.”

                    Very funny mm.

                    “Even after years of people trying to help you”

                    Even funnier. It was a joke, right?

                    You’re making some fairly stupid claims if you’re not taking the piss of yourself and TS.

        • Dennis Frank 1.2.4.2

          I’ve advocated the same on this site in the past. Switching to Aotearoa is long overdue. I suspect the reluctance of many to embrace that vastly superior name for this land is due to their interior colonialist bias. You know who I mean. Anyone who pretends to be progressive yet fails to act accordingly.

        • Incognito 1.2.4.3

          Not shutting down debate, which is bigger than you in any case, just establishing your lack of credibility on this topic.

          Unfortunately, you double-down by spouting more ignorance.

          Here’s another link for your edification: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zealand

          Despite their identical names, the island [Sjælland] is not connected historically to the Pacific nation of New Zealand, which is named after the Dutch province of Zeeland.

          • Pete George 1.2.4.3.1

            “Despite their identical names”…”is not connected historically to the Pacific nation of New Zealand” – thanks for reiterating my point., which is a side issue to whether we properly consider a name change here.

            Do you have an opinion on ‘Aotearoa’, and whether it should be openly and transparently debated?

            • Incognito 1.2.4.3.1.1

              … thanks for reiterating my point.

              You’re welcome, except I wasn’t; I was correcting your wrong attribution of the historical name of this country (New Zealand) to a Danish island (Sjælland).

              Do you have an opinion on ‘Aotearoa’, and whether it should be openly and transparently debated?

              Yes, as a matter of fact I do, which is why I pointed out to you that a genuine debate is based on information that everyone can and does agree on (AKA facts) and guided by principles of honesty and a willingness to listen and self-correct. So far, you have not proven yourself worthy of debate let alone kicking off one, IMO.

              I’ll be honest with you Pete and say that you rubbed me the wrong way on a day I wasn’t feeling well. I suggest a pause and a reset.

    • Stuart Munro 1.3

      Might be a bit tricky – I understand there are some issues with the provenance of Aotearoa – apparently not a word Cook encountered. I don’t know the details but knew a bloke who did quite a substantial project on it.

  2. Morrissey 2

    …is there a stealth campaign behind it as well?

    Dear Mr George,

    It’s those Russian masterminds again.

    Yours sincerely,

    The Democratic National Committee brains trust

    • Andre 2.1

      I gotta say, mozzie, you have an astonishing ability to take a completely unrelated topic as an invitation to whine about the Democrats. That’s a really extra special kind of stoopid.

      • Bill 2.1.1

        To be fair Andre, the Democrats (and their fellow travelers) have displayed an astonishing ability to take anything and everything as a boomerang to throw at Donald Trump via Russia. (I don’t think they’ve figured out where their sore head’s coming from yet 🙂 )

        • Andre 2.1.1.1

          Exactly which Democrats are taking “anything and everything as a boomerang to throw at Donald Trump via Russia” and how are they doing this? How about some attributed quotes, please?

          The vast majority of the stuff I see in the news about Democrats are things like the fight against Kavanaugh, news about candidates like Ocasio-Cortez, healthcare, etc.

          The Russia stuff in the news is coming from the news organisations own reporters, whether it’s reporting on Mueller related stuff or following back from social media fuckery to see where it leads.

          As far as I can tell, the allegation the Dems are focusing on Russia is coming from Repugs, possibly trying to scare their base to vote in the midterms. The only Dems I’ve seen talking much about Russia are Adam Schiff and Mark Warner, who are the lead Dems in the House and Senate Russia investigations, so obviously they will reasonably have things to say about it.

          • Bill 2.1.1.1.1

            Yeah, okay. The Democrats funded the likes of Steele to collude with Russians to dig dirt on Trump colluding with Russians…think about that for a second, aye?

            As for “Russia stuff in the news is coming from the news organisations own reporters” – are you suggesting there is such a thing as the “fourth estate”, and a reasonable measure of investigative journalism left in the realms of mainstream media these days?

            Or are you merely suggesting that stories aren’t spoon fed to journalists by politicians, their parties and various “think tanks” (like the Atlantic Council), who are in bed with identifiable political factions within parties who have axes to grind (particularly in the area of foreign policy)?

            • Andre 2.1.1.1.1.1

              The Dems hired a research firm that hired Steele. They didn’t do it directly, and AFAIK they didn’t specifically ask about Russia stuff.

              Are you seriously suggesting all the mainstream media can be considered the Democrats? And that there are no actual principled investigative journalists left? Really?

              Now, let’s go back to your allegation that “the Democrats (and their fellow travelers) have displayed an astonishing ability to take anything and everything as a boomerang to throw at Donald Trump via Russia”. Are you able to back that up with actual attributed quotes from prominent Democrats?

              • Professor Longhair

                …and AFAIK they didn’t specifically ask about Russia stuff.

                Good Lord! We have a live one here, folks!

                https://me.me/i/hes-an-idiot-wrapped-in-a-moron-and-smothered-in-18570103

              • Bill

                So, the Democratic Party (elements of) hired Steele at “arms length” and didn’t request that he dig around for stuff connecting Trump to Russia, although that’s what Steele focused on? Okay.

                No. I view mainstream media as being in the business of reflecting and promoting and excusing a liberal paradigm – not “democrat”.

                And I think there are a few good investigative or thoughtful or principled journalists working within mainstream channels. Really.

                You want me to dig out attributed quotes from prominent Democrats helping to build a picture by saying, suggesting, or giving credence to such notions as Russia meddled in the US Presidential election in favour of Donald Trump; that Donald Trump has had questionable dealings or meetings with Russians; that Russia may have him over a barrel?

                Google’s your friend Andre. Knock yourself out.

                • McFlock

                  So, the Democratic Party (elements of) hired Steele at “arms length” and didn’t request that he dig around for stuff connecting Trump to Russia, although that’s what Steele focused on? Okay.

                  Do your own googling: a rightwing website hired Fusion GPS to do opposition research on dolt-45 and other republicans. F-GPS focussed on his business activities. When that contract got cancelled, F-GPS went doorknocking on the dems. Dems picked up the contract, and F-GPS (as part of looking into dolt-45’s businesses etc) hired a Russia specialist consultancy (Orbis business intelligence) to look at dolt-45’s Russian activities. Because he has businesses in Russia.

                  The fact that the sub-contractor turned up rumours of hooker piss-parties is just icing on the cake.

                  • Bill

                    Is ‘dolt-45’ today’s new name for Trump? I’d have thought the idea would be to suggest an actual smoking gun…but maybe I’m missing something.

                    Anyway.

                    I’m aware it was Republican actors who initially retained the services of Fusion, and that some Democrats then picked up the baton and kept running with it…

                    To be honest, I’m not quite picking up on what it is you’re selling as the counter position to what I’ve written.

                    • Andre

                      I’ve always taken it as a riff on Colt 45, a cheap and nasty malt liquor particularly popular among, erm, less-privileged demographics.

                      http://www.citypaper.com/news/features/bcp-100715-feature-malt-liquor-20151007-story.html

                    • McFlock

                      I’ve been using it for a while. Can’t even be bothered using his name, and “fascist fuck-knuckle” is too distracting. Bounced around a few others, but “dolt-45” seems adequate.

                      Anyway, his opponents hired a company to do opposition research. They didn’t say “look at russia”. They would have said something along the lines of “We need to know his weaknesses, and his strengths. Does he have any skeletons in the closet? What can we use against him, and what can he use against us?”.

                      Just as every US political campaign has done for decades.

                • Andre

                  “the Democrats (and their fellow travelers) have displayed an astonishing ability to take anything and everything as a boomerang to throw at Donald Trump via Russia” is your allegation and your burden of proof. I’m not sure why you expect me to substantiate it for you when you won’t.

                  Especially when I’m very confident the proportion of time prominent Dems spend talking about Russia-Trump stuff is very very low, with the possible exception of Warner and Schiff.

      • marty mars 2.1.2

        I dont think morries the only one lol

        • soddenleaf 2.1.2.1

          I left it on the park bench by mistake, three days before its natural release, some sort of early onset dementia. Read my lips, if govts are going to release early they will never cover up anything, we be invaded tomorrow. But this was just a mistake, real leaks never get this sort of press.

  3. James 3

    I’m sure there are many in here who will disagree – but let’s face it this is not exactly a normal cross section of NZ Society.

    But Hosking nails it this morning Jacinda is looking weak and weaselling with the truth.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12122261

    • JanM 3.1

      We have a massive issue with bullying in this country and you can quite see why when decent and respectful leadership processes are derided and described in this negative way. We should hang our heads in shame that we give such ignorant people space to spout their venom

      • James 3.1.1

        “We have a massive issue with bullying in this country“

        Like a certain female labour minister who had been thru so many staff already – nothing was done until she physically assisted someone.

        • Ankerrawshark 3.1.1.1

          Physically assisted someone?… I don’t think that is was is being claimed James. Another good reason to have an investigation and wait for the findings.

          • james 3.1.1.1.1

            Typo (Obv) however – why did it take so long – and an alleged assault before this was looked at.

            The staff turn over and stories of verbal abuse are many for her short time in office.

            Seems that Labour were happy to turn a blind eye to this – thus enabling the bully.

            • ankerawshark 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Hi James,

              Yes it was a little weak of me to make capital out of your obv typo.

              I don’t know how parliament works, is there anyone monitoring staff turnover??????parliamentary services???? I am sure the PM isn’t monitoring staff turn over as she has too much other stuff to attend to and it would be micro managing………………….

              I said right from the start re the Meka issue that its not good and I didn’t try to c/p it to National’s track record.

              I’ll say it again, the allegations aren’t good. They are worthy of some sort of investigation. Lets wait and see the results and then Ms Ardern can chose her course of action.

              On a separate note I am very angry about the male broadcasters, many of them untrained who jumped on board criticizing Ardern re her trip to Nauru, and one who even suggested it was time she stopped breast feeding. Ms Ardern has be understandably effected by this and she was right to talk to the NY Times about this, where she might get a fair hearing. Right now they msm and Nats are trying to start a meme that Ardern is weak, which is bullshit……..

              • james

                “On a separate note I am very angry about the male broadcasters, many of them untrained who jumped on board criticizing Ardern re her trip to Nauru”

                untrained in what?

                • ankerawshark

                  Journalism….

                  • james

                    Well – they are qualified enough to get a job.

                    • ankerawshark

                      Qualified enough in what???????

                      You see all I do is see them spouting their biased opinions……they get a lot of air space.

                      It bothers me because I hate what happened under National in terms of homelessness, housing and health mantaining a low wage economy to name a few. Those are the real issues for me and I want them fix. Someone who spouts cliches and sound bites needs to be challenged. That’s all I will ever see Hoskings et al as.

        • Bearded Git 3.1.1.2

          troll

      • Tuppence Shrewsbury 3.1.2

        Trying to spin a poorly actioned leadership event “as a thoughtful and respectful decision making process” and then trying to silence any critique or opposition to that using fallacious mental health claims is the real bullying here.

        Clare Curran showed repeated contempt for the norms of behaviour expected of ministers to perform their duties in a democratic and accountable way.

        To say that the last lot were worse means nothing. This lot were supposed to have been better. Curran, as minister for open government, should have been the best. not the worst. So it’s inexcusable she thinks the pressure is unbearable, when really it’s her own mistakes that put the pressure on.

    • Red Blooded One 3.2

      I think you will find a far greater “normal cross section of NZ Society” here on The Standard than you would in Hoskings world. If he is continuing to rage against our Prime Minister then she must be doing something right. I don’t ever watch or listen to Hoskings so I’ll have to take your word for what he is nailing these days.

      • James 3.2.1

        I love the number of people in here who won’t read others views then get all surprised when they find more people disagree with them than agree.

        And in this case it’s the Heralds world not just Hosking

        • lprent 3.2.1.1

          The NZ Herald is the particular domain of a small part of the Auckland community. Mainly the parasitical bit that owns assets designed to extract rents from citizens.

          It is representative largely of Remuera.

          I don’t tend to read the fuckwit because he never seems to researches anything he writes. Instead he wank-writes something for his ratings.

          By contrast there are people like Fran O’Sullivan who also writes in the Herald, who I mostly disagree with, but who usually has something worth reading.

          • Sacha 3.2.1.1.1

            The Harold has devolved into a Nat party newsletter for the Remmers branch. Bring on the paywall.

        • Red Blooded One 3.2.1.2

          Someone not choosing to give an audience to Mike Hoskings is not refusing to listen to others views, it is choosing not to pay attention to that particular predictably negative self puffing popinjay. You know nothing about who I communicate with so as usual you’re just making stuff up.

        • JanM 3.2.1.3

          I really don’t understand why you and that other one who sounds like a kid on one of Thelwell’s ponies bother to blather on like this – haven’t you got a life?
          Still, if that’s what gets you up in the morning!! However, your time might be better spent trying to be part of the solution, not part of the problem

        • ankerawshark 3.2.1.4

          Well we all know about Mikes approach don’t we. His former colleague came out about how he bullied her for a year, every day.

        • Kay 3.2.1.5

          I’ve tried my best to read other’s views (except Hosking and pals since all they seem capable of doing is ranting) but very few ever seem to deviate from their assigned/indoctrinated talking points and won’t engage with other points of view, or even agree to disagree. They often come across as completely inflexible and unable to back up said talking points with their own ideas. (Of course, if there are any you can link me to for some intelligent reading, then please do.) A bit like you James, and your fellow trolls here. I’m always interested in different views on a subject even if I’m not going to agree (eg I will NEVER in a million years agree with the RW stance on welfare) but I’d really like to engage in a non aggro, intelligent 2 way discussion as to why someone feels differently, without them going on the defensive everytime they get challenged.

        • Cinny 3.2.1.6

          Just wanted to say, it’s a bit rich of simon to call Jacinda weak, considering so many do not want simon to lead the country.

          hosking and simon desperate to embed a word. They probably check in with each other every monday morning, to agree on the narrative to spin for the weak/week.

    • lprent 3.3

      Mike Hosking is a dimwitted fool endowed with all of wisdom of bijon frise. He is also a simple parasite with a ego who appears to have never done anything useful in his life apart from a bit of barking to amuse simpletons. I guess you are one of them.

      I’ve never been impressed by him and his ideas.

      What I do find particularly annoying isn’t his mindless Labour bashing – after all the lazy fuckwit is a simple National tool. It is when Auckland has to suffer these dimwitted and unwanted migrants from Christchurch in our media trying to discuss Auckland and iot is clear the the dorks have never bothered to find out anything about the city. Roughan is the same.

      • Grey Area 3.3.1

        That first paragraph is classic. Brought a smile to my face.

      • marty mars 3.3.2

        That is ‘nailing it’ – thanks

      • veutoviper 3.3.3

        Oh come on, iprent. Bijon frise are great little dogs, full of love and mischief, and they don’t drop hair everywhere. Mind you, their haircuts are more expensive than most human haircuts!

        Nothing like that idiot Hosking.

        • mauī 3.3.3.1

          Dijon Freezers are particularly odious. Yap, yap, yap… incessantly. Annoying furr balls.

        • lprent 3.3.3.2

          Look they are great wee dogs. My sister has one. It is theoretically her purse dog suitable for apartments. But it is a real dog – loves to roll in seagull shit at the beach.

          Among other attributes they have an intense loyalty to their owners – just like Hosking. They have an intense people orientated talking focus, no real ability to listen, no discipline, and absolutely no analytical abilities – just like Hosking. They are able to learn simple ticks and repeat them without thinking – just like Hosking.

          I won’t go on about their genetically inbred expensive diseases. Suffice it to say that Hosking should keep these to himself and pay for himself.

          I could go on – but basically they are a stupid kept animal with a lot of people pleasing personality, and so is Hosking. A non-working parasite…

          My sister’s previous dog was a very long lived Jack Russell with an enormous mouth and teeth which protected the kids. That was a super smart working dog. She could and did intimidate anything outside of her family pack – regardless of size.

          • veutoviper 3.3.3.2.1

            Well said. Now I get it! LOL.
            I too have had many dogs over the years – all ‘second timers’ and many with previous bad experiences, fears etc. These have included several combinations of softie biggies and aggressive little ones – eg my last one was a 68kg Rottie/Mastiff cross whose best mate was a 6kg Maltese and they both had reverse personalities. The Maltese would take on anything to protect his Rottie (forget me) just like your sister’s Jack Russell. Sadly the big boy died last year, and the little one just two months ago, Now dogless for the first time for decades.

            • joe90 3.3.3.2.1.1

              My foxy/miniature dachshund/chihuahua cross was a champion possum dog able to take on animals more than twice her size, and despite her adorable, butter wouldn’t melt demeanour around people, the tiny thuggette ruled the roost because she thought she was rottweiler.

              • Anne

                Well, since we’re on to dogs… my sadly departed golden retriever was the most beautiful dog you ever saw – so beautiful people would stop and jump out of their cars to pat him. He was large with soft white fur and a lovely big head. Retrievers are regarded as one of the most intelligent dogs, but unfortunately the busy elves in the heavenly work-shop forgot to put one in my boy’s head.

                • marty mars

                  Nice – I had a newfoundland for 11.5 years – big, black and beautiful. He loved following his nose…

                • gsays

                  15 year old golden lab at our place.
                  loves swimming, bringing stick back, and if there’s no stick at the river, she will put head under water and bring rocks back.
                  profoundly deaf and eyesight shady. wag muscle still going strong.

          • greywarshark 3.3.3.2.2

            That was a super smart working dog. She could and did intimidate anything outside of her family pack – regardless of size.
            Just like you!https://thestandard.org.nz/wp-admin/admin-ajax.php?_wpnonce=d7b33afd00&cid=1523089&pid=1797571

    • Dennis Frank 3.4

      Soper has a similar view in the Herald too. I think this connection he makes is worth considering: “there’s something else these two have in common: attending the demise of them both was Clark’s former chief spin doctor and now Ardern’s chief of staff Mike Munro”.

      Although I agree the PM hasn’t managed the perception side of things effectively, the reasons she gave for being economical with the truth were valid – as I’ve mentioned elsewhere here. Hosking remains an inept political analyst. He only seems capable of seeing one side of an issue. Elementary competence requires seeing the big picture.

    • KJT 3.5

      That you are listening to Hoskings, tells me a lot about you.

      When decency, fairness and proper process, is considered, weak! Tells me a lot about Hoskings. Including his fitness to be a public commentator.

      • James 3.5.1

        “That you are listening to Hoskings, tells me a lot about you.”

        I also read this site. It’s possible to real more than one view.

        • ankerawshark 3.5.1.1

          no you come to troll James, not to read this site

          • james 3.5.1.1.1

            In your ever so humble opinion.

            • ankerawshark 3.5.1.1.1.1

              Yes that is my opinion James. Do you disagree with me?

              • james

                you are the one making statements that you know what people do and why.

                • ankerawshark

                  Know I am offering an opinion that you are a troll.

                  Just like you are offering an opinion that Jacinda is spineless and Simon and Mike are trying to spin that she is weak.

                  What I am interested in is what they are doing to better the country.
                  So far I am happy.

                  I didn’t like what National did and I felt John Key was allowed to get away with “murder”. Eg Dirty Politics (have you read the book yet James?). Find out what was really going on in the PM’s office.

                  Anyway, note to myself …………don’t engage with James. It doesn’t go well. I don’t end up feeling further informed which is what I come on this website for.

                  There is an attempt to spin Jacinda as a weak leader. The msm want to get rid of her.

                  Fortunately she is an expert in using social media. A lot of people particularly young voters are likely to engage more with that than the likes of Hoskings……………………….

            • marty mars 3.5.1.1.1.2

              My opinion too james – you are an odious tr0ll.

        • Incognito 3.5.1.2

          At school, people learn to read so that they can read to learn throughout life.

        • Bearded Git 3.5.1.3

          as a troll

    • Reality 3.6

      Behaving like an alpha-male is not our PM’s way of doing things James. Behaving like the bad-tempered screeching Simon Bridges is not her way either. She is a different personality and there’s more ways than one of dealing with issues.

      I have personally witnessed Barry Soper having an almighty tantrum in public abusing someone, so have since had absolutely no respect for him and his views.

      • james 3.6.1

        “Behaving like an alpha-male is not our PM’s way of doing things James”

        No – being like a spineless person, who is afraid of making a hard decision seems to be more like it.

        • Incognito 3.6.1.1

          Good to know that there’s hope for all spineless people who are afraid to make a hard decision: “one day, you can be PM of NZ too”.

        • ankerawshark 3.6.1.2

          a spineless person “in your humble opinion James” You would say that would you.

          As Jacinda said “who in history has ever been sacked for failing to right something in their diary.

          • james 3.6.1.2.1

            “As Jacinda said “who in history has ever been sacked for failing to right something in their diary.”

            yes – but thats a gross minimisation of what she actually did – twice.

        • Reality 3.6.1.3

          I object to you calling our PM “spineless”. She is a braver person with grace and humanity and nuance that the likes of you and your hang-ons would not know how to be. I am also aware you are here only to get a reaction, which you crave for in your mean nasty little world. One can only pity you.

        • McFlock 3.6.1.4

          And if she’d acted “tough” you’d be saying she was cold, a bully, etc.

          Classic catch-22, either way she’s a bad PM according to your spin.

          BTW, I don’t need to listen to Alex Jones to know with reasonable likelihood that he’s A) full of shit; and B) just after the clicks. Same with Hosking. The pathetic little man-child is just a nat cheerleader who has a wee tantrum when democracy forms a government supported by most of the people.

          • james 3.6.1.4.1

            “And if she’d acted “tough” you’d be saying she was cold, a bully, etc.”

            No Helen Clarke was ‘tough’ and I never called her those things. Jacinda isn’t even in the same ball park as a leader that Helen was.

            • BM 3.6.1.4.1.1

              Arden would make a far better kindy teacher, then PM.

              She just doesn’t have it.

              • Incognito

                Why do you think that “Arden [sp] would make a far better kindy teacher”?

              • Suck it up mate only 3 more terms to go lol

              • greywarshark

                James
                I will support you and agree that you are a splendiderofous commenter and BM too. You get everyone going like a dose of salts. I recommend for the purpose of not wasting time that everyone takes a toilet break every time these gentlemen’s names appear, and then talk about our problems in NZ which are manifold and to which there are no smart answers.

                They do need persistent attention to detail and airing ideas with following comments that rectify faults until they are usable, doable and ready to slip in the government slot that is available to profit making entities. Slip ours in and give the nerds a fright!

            • Bearded Git 3.6.1.4.1.2

              troll

            • McFlock 3.6.1.4.1.3

              A nice claim that’s completely unverifiable.

              But even if you personally are as pure as the driven snow, your tory mates would be spouting that line. As they did against Clark.

        • Bearded Git 3.6.1.5

          troll

    • Professor Longhair 3.7

      Hosking nails nothing, not even that ghastly wife of his.

    • bwaghorn 3.8

      The thing is james when people like hoskings and even yourself have a go at labour or the coalition government one thinks back to the fact that they have never said a single good thing about them .
      Which means you can right off anything they utter as biased bullshit.

      • In Vino 3.8.1

        Held my breath so far, but that does it.
        One WRITES in a diary, and one WRITES something off. Not ‘rights’.
        How about some basic literacy, guys? Or are you all NCEA-bred texters?

    • Ed 3.9

      Bully boy troll

  4. Dennis Frank 4

    Compulsory Te Reo in schools is likely to be worth at least a 5% drop in polls for the govt – if Peters really has agreed to state compulsion to enforce bilingualism on the populace then he’s obviously lost the plot. Any adults in the room?? Looks like none in Labour & the Greens on this issue. I’ve been watching to see if a credible rationale was being put forward in support but zilch so far. So much for multicultural reality in Aotearoa. Those trying to keep us in the 19th century bicultural yoke are using this device like a strait-jacket to control us. Will not end well!

    • solkta 4.1

      Just having people able to pronounce half of our place names should be enough reason.

    • KJT 4.2

      Compulsory Reo in schools. About time.

      You will get used to it.

      BTW. We had Te Reo in my primary school social studies, in the 1960’s.

      Did no harm, and a lot of good helping cultural understanding.

      • Ad 4.2.1

        I had compulsory French and Latin, and it was great for the standard European tours.

        If I had done compulsory Maori, it would have ensured that I never made a dick of myself on a marae, and would also mean I could get by in the Cook Islands.

        I think there’s a good chance National will support this.

        The Hobson’s Pledge people will just keep dying off.

        I would also soften the impact by simultaneously proposing Matariki Day as a national holiday. Almost no-one would oppose it.

        • KJT 4.2.1.2

          I learnt French in high school.

          Never used it, despite working with French speakers, but great for my understanding of English grammar, and living in a multicultural job site, later.

          • Carolyn_Nth 4.2.1.2.1

            I learned French at school, can read a reasonable amount. Did an adult education course in it when living in London. Still can’t hold a conversation with French people about every day things. Can use it in a muddled way to conduct some transactions in France.

            I think would need to be using a language regularly over a long period to be able to hold everyday conversations in it.

            But, my understanding of French, and the little bit I have learned of te reo, gives me a better understanding of those languages, other languages, and those cultures.

            • BM 4.2.1.2.1.1

              I think would need to be using a language regularly over a long period to be able to hold everyday conversations in it.

              That’s why the Maori language is struggling to survive.

              • KJT

                That is why we need to again, have Te Reo at school.

                • BM

                  How’s that going to help?

                  What advantage is there to speaking Maori?, you struggle to be understood, compare that to English where 99% of people understand what you’re saying.

                  The Maori language has to be used in daily life to be retained, which is why you can’t speak Maori even though you’ve done a course, that’s the issue, use it or lose it.

                  First and foremost language is about communication, people can communicate far easier in English than they can in Maori, so everyone uses English

                  The only way Te Reo will survive is if part of NZ breaks away, is under Maori rule and you’re only allowed to speak Maori.

                  • arkie

                    What advantage is there to speaking Maori?, you struggle to be understood, compare that to English where 99% of people understand what you’re saying.

                    Let’s try this out but with some different languages;

                    In Denmark what advantage is there to speaking Danish?
                    In Greece what advantage is there to speaking Greek?
                    In Malaysia what advantage is there to speaking Malay?

                    It’s called culture.

                    • BM

                      it’s called communication.

                    • arkie

                      And so why not speak English in Denmark, Greece and Malaysia? They are all compelled to learn english at school?

                      Why not everyone in the world learn Esperanto for ease of communications?

                      Let’s just call it what it is and recognise you as yet another NIMBY, ‘western’-supremacy, Status Quo Warrior.

                    • BM

                      English has become the unofficial world language.

                      https://englishharmony.com/english-is-the-world-language/

                      Why?
                      Finance and banking
                      Movies
                      Music
                      The internet
                      etc
                      …………..

                      That’s why those countries learn English, they have to if they want to be part of a global world.

                      Luckily for us, we already speak English!

                    • RedLogix []

                      It’s us who’re the deprived monolinguals BM. Many people speak English as a default global language and their own cultural language at home.

                      Personally I rather wish Te Reo had been taught at primary school when it would have been much easier to learn.

                    • arkie

                      Even if I agree with you that a language that less than 5.5% of the world speaks is the ‘unofficial world language’ you still haven’t answered the question of why other countries continue to teach their local language in the face of this ‘supremacy’ of english? Why did people revive Welsh or Irish?

                  • God you are a weak bag of piss bm. Fucken glad you hang in the tron you’d be laughed out of everywhere down south. We dont tolerate weak giver uppers like you.

                  • Incognito

                    Oh FFS! Get your nipples out of your icecream! What flavour is it, BTW?

                • BM

                  What a nonsense article, that proves nothing.

                  • veutoviper

                    What that Dec 2017 Stuff article says has been supported more and more since then with apparently a two year waiting list for entry to many Te Reo Maori courses.

                    The reaction to this free course offered by a fish and chip shop owner in Christchurch (also a qualified Te Reo teacher) was massive, with over 600 people turning up for the first lesson leading to the course having to be moved to a school auditorium. Subsequent media reports (eg RNZ News) were that numbers of that level continued to show up to the weekly lessons and more courses are now being offered.

                    https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/104115332/massive-crowd-gather-for-free-christchurch-te-reo-class

                    So you can cover your ears, BM, and keep saying No, BS etc but you can not stop the wave.

                  • gsays

                    “English has become the unofficial world language”

                    Well Te Reo IS an official langauge of Aotearoa.
                    Why?
                    Inclusivity.
                    An understanding of indigenous culture.
                    The reo is from nowhere else.
                    A beautiful language with a musical quality.
                    The use of imagery to describe situations or people.
                    A reminder of a way of being that is sustainable.
                    (He tangata, he tangata, he tangata ).

                    • veutoviper

                      As marty said, well put.

                      Despite being Ngati Pakeha, I strongly support Te Reo Maori being as someone put it, an integral part of the curriculum (rather than talking about being compulsory) BUT it must go hand in hand with Maoritanga (and all of the subs of that) – as IMHO the two exist as integral and inseparable parts of one another.

                    • gsays

                      ironically enough the class that i took as a formal intro to the taonga of te reo, was cut by the tories…

          • lprent 4.2.1.2.2

            I did French, Latin, and some German. The latter was useful for reading some geology papers (a lot of which are still published in German).

            The others were useful for my fascination with functional languages. That I have never used the dead language of Latin to do more than read some classics is irrelevant. So Is my complete non use of french.

            Since I left school I have learnt the varied languages of science, accounting, politics, engineering and above all my real obsession with computer languages.

            I have learnt and used more than a hundred languages to tell computers how to do things. I hate to think how many library frameworks that I have dug through as well. Each of which is carries a language that says how you should perceive things.

            Basically language is *the* art of accessing things. If you don’t have it then you’re limited in the ways that you can perceive knowledge. A lack of it makes people idiotic and inflexible.

            It simply doesn’t matter that much if it is Te Reo or Latin

            • Carolyn_Nth 4.2.1.2.2.1

              I have found Latin useful in understanding medical terms.

              • veutoviper

                I did both French and Latin and I found Latin far more useful as an overall base in understanding many other languages, and also not only medical terms but also those for other forms of science (chemistry, biology, physics etc) – plus law, the arts etc.

                I hated it at the time although it was one of my top subjects (I connected with its logic); but really appreciated having done it as I went on to tertiary education. I really wish it was still taught more for those reasons, but I am also a strong supporter of Te Reo Maori and Maoritanga being compulsory. One does not exist/make sense without the other.

                And while I am at it, I had most of my secondary and the first three years of my tertiary education in the US and despite being a NZer who would be returning to NZ, still had to take all the compulsory US civics education courses to graduate from high school.

                I strongly believe that civics education should also be compulsory here as I am really astounded at the lack of understanding of our form of democracy, how our Parliamentary and local government systems work – and thus the lack of interest in participating and voting. And that includes many people on here!

                • greywarshark

                  VV
                  Why aren’t the USA people up on understanding their politics if civics is a compulsory thing in states. Has anyone done research to see whether it is the states that don’t give a good grounding in civics, that turn out for the celebrity presidents despite them being bad for the country.?

                  • veutoviper

                    They do understand their civics, grey, but the US system is actually quite a different system to the version of the Westminster parliamentary system we have here in NZ, which itself has devolved into our own unique system, which also involves MMP based on the German system of MMP as opposed to other Westminster based system such as those in thea Uk and Australia for example.

                    The US is an indirect system via the electoral college and the personal identification with one of two main parties long before you get to vote. Anyway, would love to expand more but need an early night as have an early/long medical appointment tomorrow morning. Will try to find some time to get some links together for you. Kia kaha. I admire your interest to learn and your sometimes over the top/off this planet ideas – but don’t ever stop. We need your fresh thinking.

              • Incognito

                I have found Latin useful in understanding Monty Python’s Life of Brian 😉

                Actually, that should be “appreciating” rather …

    • You may need to educate yourself Dennis. This is a bi cultural country – get used to it. It will still be bi cultural after you’ve gone too. The adults are having the conversation the silly children are the ones disrupting and why? Simply fear, unjustified fear, just like children.

    • Dennis Frank 4.4

      It’s very significant that 80% of Maori don’t speak Te Reo. Looks very much like they are exercising their freedom of choice. If such a huge majority don’t want to keep their own language alive, why should it be forced on everyone else?

      Mark Richardson suggested Maori kids ought to have the option of choosing Maori instead of English at school. I agree. English ought not to be forced on them.

      • solkta 4.4.1

        That was a very childish answer.

      • Gabby 4.4.2

        Why does marky think it should be either/or and why do you agree franky?

      • marty mars 4.4.3

        I am losing respect for you Dennis.
        I thought you were better than the shit you’re putting up.
        I have a nice big category that I’m not far off putting you in – Richardson and Hoskins is in there so plenty of company for you.

      • Carolyn_Nth 4.4.4

        That 80% is 80% of all Māori from 0 years old to death. And the measure is being able to hold a conversation about everyday things in te reo, as answered on the 2013 census. So it means that probably far less than 80% speak or understand zero te reo.

        The proficiency, as measured, increases as people get older. So the percentage of Māori over 25 years who can hold a conversation about everyday things in te reo, will be greater than 20%.

      • KJT 4.4.5

        I am sure that a great many of that 80% would like to.

        As a mostly Pakeha, I would have liked to be more fluent in Maori also.
        I suspect I am not the only one.

        I know a lot of people, like me, who understand a lot of Maori words, but cannot hold a conversation.

        • BM 4.4.5.1

          What’s stopping you?
          Go do a course if you’re that interested.

          • KJT 4.4.5.1.1

            I did.

            National cancelled those community education courses, BTW.

            Some of us, however, work for a living.

            We have limited free time,

            • BM 4.4.5.1.1.1

              Ok, I’m guessing the problem is that you’ve got no one to talk Maori to and because you’re not using the language all the time you’ve forgotten most of what you learnt?

              National cancelled those community education courses, BTW

              They’re still there.

              Some of us, however, work for a living.

              That’s why these courses are run at night.

              • KJT

                In what planet are they still there.

                Planet Key.

                Certainly not here.

                I used to Teach one. Not Maori obviously.

                • BM

                  https://www.fraser.school.nz/com-ed/course/te-reo-maori-tuesdays

                  National took an axe to all the crap courses and retained the ones that had some value.

                  • KJT

                    Most of them served a community function. Which was of course, not relevant to National, who only want cheap cannon fodder for industry.

                    Te Reo was axed in Whangarei. Along with maritime safety, dance, music, small engine repair and a host of other “crap” courses, which bought people together, allowed learning of new skills, worked as a social venue for the elderly, keeping them out of hospital, acted as a pathway back into learning/work for many, and allowed the skilled to help their community.

                    Only had no value to those who believe, “there is no such thing as community”.

                    • Gosman

                      Do you have evidence that the rate of hospital admissions for elderly have increased since the axing of these courses?

                    • McFlock

                      … because if you can start an argument about admission rates, you can ignore everything else. 🙄

                    • greywarshark

                      BM
                      Doesn’t need to attend any courses. He has finished his race and is just dithering and cluttering the exit. Only horses here, not asses.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      Tautoko, KJT; I think BM cannot understand what you mean. No matter, carry on as if he doesn’t exist (it’s the only way).

              • KJT

                If my Maori grandson learns Maori at Primary school, I will have someone to speak it with, won’t I?

      • greywarshark 4.4.6

        Dennis that is not a well thought out approach. Sort of top of ghe head, instant stuff. We enlarge our capacity for thought and deeper understanding of cultures when we learn their language. Maori is interwoven already into our language used daily, but needs to be kept alive because English in ruling the world or tryisng to, is killing off the beauty of other cultures thought and replacing it with this monoculture.

        • Dennis Frank 4.4.6.1

          Interesting response. I was intrigued that you didn’t actually respond to either of the points I made but felt I was missing an essential part of the big picture.

          Yes, I agree with your advocacy of that part. Not sure that I can agree that it is essential, however. Looks to me that it really belongs to those who are free to choose it as a lifestyle option. I do totally agree re monoculture=bad!

          • Robert Guyton 4.4.6.1.1

            Dennis; imagine if Papatuanuku spoke to tangata whenua, sharing Her treasures and wisdom with them, then shut up when blunt, brutal and spiritually-deaf tauiwi arrived here; should the descendants of those colonisers remain deaf or strive to open their blocked ears?

            • Dennis Frank 4.4.6.1.1.1

              Definitely open blocked ears & listen, Robert. That’s why I decided to support the Maori communal land stewardship tradition when I first encountered that ethic long ago. It’s the primary interface between ancestral Maori culture and the Green movement. I’ve never been able to get traction in the GP with translating that into policy. Too radical!

      • phantom snowflake 4.4.7

        Dennis Frank: If your (metaphorical) peripheral vision were to expand a little, you might detect a kind of shadow version of the “New Zealand” you (think you) know well. One aspect of this realm involves resonances which spoken Te Reo Maori creates with, say, trees, birds and waterways in a process which promotes health and vitality for all involved.

        Leaving the mystical behind, there are more prosaic ways in which Te Reo Maori can save us: Te Reo provides the most direct means of linking with a range of traditional Maori values which embody the healing properties our nation so desperately needs; physically, psychologically and spiritually. I’m talking about manaakitanga, kaitiakitanga, kotahitanga for example.
        I’ll stop there. I’m not one to spoonfeed; I offer only the barest hint…

        • Dennis Frank 4.4.7.1

          Yes, both your points are valid and I agree they ought to be included in any big picture view of the cultural interface. Thanks for the feedback.

        • Robert Guyton 4.4.7.2

          Phantom – elegantly put. Yunkers, finding themselves somehow ejected from their nest, have to be spooned, or they’ll die…

          • phantom snowflake 4.4.7.2.1

            Thanks Robert; it’s a rare day when I can string a few coherent sentences of prose together, though I do okay with poetry.

    • Draco T Bastard 4.5

      Compulsory Te Reo in schools is likely to be worth at least a 5% drop in polls for the govt

      Which it really shouldn’t as multilingualism has been proven to increase creativity and personal development. If people really want the best education for their children then they should be fully supportive of this.

      Those trying to keep us in the 19th century bicultural yoke are using this device like a strait-jacket to control us.

      WTF?

      You do know that the colonial government tried really hard to kill the Māori language in the 19th and early 20th centuries right?

      • greywarshark 4.5.1

        No worries that 5% will be dead before long leaving those behind to form a workable and respectful society pulling together to cope and having some enjoyable moments. This is as good as it get you grizzly me-first, entitled oldies; the rest can be part of and enjoy the rise and kindness of family and community.

  5. Ankerrawshark 5

    Hey everyone let’s not take James bate cause that’s what he comes on here to do.

    Isn’t it great 10,000 new houses in mt roskill and that under national 1 in 20 state house was empty. In just 9months tywford got it down to 1 in 50. Actions speak louder than right wingers in the media’s meme.

    Yawn James

    • SaveNZ 5.1

      The government plans to build 10,000 new homes in Mt Roskill over the next 15 years, by demolishing 3000 existing state homes, and subdividing the sections.

      The development includes 2400 modest, affordable KiwiBuild homes for first home buyers, plus 3000 to 4000 market homes, and more than 3000 new state homes.

      The total cost will be about $4 billion, but Mr Twyford said the net cost to the government would be minimal.

      “They are basically funded through the redevelopment of the land, we are taking advantage of Housing New Zealand’s balance sheet to do some of this work, but we’re not expecting to have to inject any additional finance from the government.”

      https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/366041/govt-announces-10-000-new-homes-in-mt-roskill

      • SaveNZ 5.1.1

        Not really good news for renters, because they are just replacing the state homes and selling off the land which anybody with 2 years under their belt in NZ can buy up and compete with the Kiwis to buy.

        Also probably not mentioned is that they will bring in thousands of migrants (35,000 new migrants just for construction has been bandied around as a figure in the past) to build them… so we will have even more of a housing shortage than before because they are bringing in more people apparently to solve the crisis…

        The housing shortage can only be stemmed by stopping the demand side. But funny enough the government seems reluctant to touch that, both in allowing overseas sales of NZ property new builds as well as keeping massive low wage/property investment immigration full steam ahead.

        • greywarshark 5.1.1.1

          +100

        • Ad 5.1.1.2

          Renters are provided for with other comprehensive reforms. No single land deal will deal with the rental shortage.

          We need foreign builders because we’ve run out of them here.

          The demand side, as you call it, is people who need houses. It will never stop, but we can make it better. That’s what the government is doing.

          • SaveNZ 5.1.1.2.1

            The “comprehensive reforms” are taking private houses and landlords out of renting. So with the ‘demand’ side on fire so that the certain sectors of society addicted to low wages can have an endless pool of people to exploit while refusing to train/house/ or do anything themselves to retain valuable people and skills in this country.

            So ho hum, NZ becomes part of Asia, huge inequality, homeless and beggars on the street, luxury and tents side by side and of course the obligatory leaky wrap everywhere, as why expect quality builders and construction in NZ, when there is an endless supply of ratepayers and tax payers and consumers to endlessly rebuild houses that no longer seem to last 50 years, let alone a decade without remedial work?

            • SaveNZ 5.1.1.2.1.1

              I don’t also see the government offering any sort of security to tenants, most of the headlines are temporary housing offered by the government. They are not offering state houses rates built pegged to increasing population and inequality rates for example.

              Nor do I see any of the most vocal idealists of quality rentals offering to be landlords in parliament, aka all very well for the government to be critical of landlords but very hypocritical while being reluctant to make the government landlords pegged to population growth and also not being keen of becoming landlords themselves and offering quality accomodation to people in need which they could well do, on a parliamentary salary.

              When the government demolishes all these state houses, where are those state house tenants going to go for the next 15 years while they “rebuild” them at what looks like levels from a much lower population level?

              In real terms Labour/Greens/NZ First are getting the government out of renting, while also flogging over the private rental market at the affordable end and of course not going to become ‘rentier class’ themselves for the poor as against their principals.

              So in two years, there is going to be a lot of renters complaining they don’t have a house at all, or any options while under this government, and what are they going to do, when every day before the next election there will be another story of another homeless person/family who earn an average wage or under with nowhere to live and those deemed suitable for renting under new rules are way out of their price range and in massively short supply, the rest sitting empty while being deemed too unsuitable to be rented and the state houses also empty while being demolished for rebuilding in up to 15 years?

          • KJT 5.1.1.2.2

            We need to train our kids to be builders.

            We need foreign builders like we need a hole in the arse.

            35000 Immigrants to build 10000 new houses? FFS.

            • gsays 5.1.1.2.2.1

              Absolutely right KJT, and we missed an opportunity in the aftermath of the Christchurch earthquakes to use the situation to trainbe apprentices.

              Apprentices that would now be starting to employ other youngsters.

              Incidentally my son is looking at doing a building apprenticeship next year.
              He is asking around for Christmas holiday labouring.
              A good chance to find out whether the building companies treat the apprentices as employees or as contractors.

            • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.2.2.2

              Training costs and so all our businesses and business leaders don’t do it so as to boost profits for the bludgers and then complain to the government that we don’t have the needed skills and demand to be able to import them.

              These two things lower wages as more people get pushed into low paid work and the decreasing development of our economy all of which has the collapse of our nation and our society as the end result. Exactly as has happened throughout history.

            • Herodotus 5.1.1.2.2.3

              Agreed pity there is NO clear apprenticeship pathway
              https://bcito.org.nz/apprenticeships/about-apprenticeships/how-apprenticeships-work/
              “Your employer will train you in the skills of the trade as you work. They’ll ensure your work is up to standard, and that you cover the required scope of work to complete your qualification.”
              Sure this sounds good, yet I have 3 mates who’s sons are on their 3rd or 4th employee, as they are “released” as work loads reduce.
              Wasn’t part of importing off shore talent that there was a requirement to train an apprentice ?
              Long term solution
              https://www.labour.org.nz/immigration
              “and introducing a KiwiBuild Visa for residential construction firms who train a local when they hire a worker from overseas.”
              Why not with the construction of state houses, Kiwibuild or private developers e.g. Mt Roskill have a condition to train the workforce. But it is easier just to import to cover for shortages.
              https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/106868388/thousands-of-new-homes-promised-for-mt-roskill-development

            • SaveNZ 5.1.1.2.2.4

              +1 KJT

              NO more people coming in, until they “solve” the housing crisis and the transport crisis which if you stop people coming in to work here, will mean the government and industry have to actually pull finger, and use the existing youth and retrain and help people being made redundant and want to work in aged care or low waged areas or what have you.. can’t get any opportunity to do so?

              https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/in-depth/365540/why-being-made-redundant-in-nz-is-so-tough

              • SaveNZ

                Heard Fulton Hogan for example is bringing in 50+ migrants from the Phillipines. They also have someone going around getting them accomodation and making sure they have the right food so they stay.

                Pity employers are not more concerned about making sure that people from NZ from Northland or the South Island that could be working for them have a person organising their accomodation and food and making sure they feel at home.

                Of course it can also be something like getting people in on $40k instead of $90k for the same equivalent job in NZ….

                Then we wonder why we can’t keep quality skills in NZ, and everything is such a balls up and costs 20x more than everywhere else.

                There is a saying, do it once do it right. NZ has developed systems where there is subcontractors and middle men at every turn, taking margins and we actually don’t have quality ‘makers’ anymore, just bad middlemen employing the lowest common denominator actually doing the work.

                • SaveNZ

                  Had a friend that worked for a very well known infrastructure firm. He was on $40k, he then sent his CV to OZ and got offered two jobs, his ticket to attend the interview and settled on a job offer worth $120k.

                  So we can train as many people as possible in NZ, but why employers are offering locals a fraction of what they are worth we will continue to have this problem of retaining them.

                  The problem has never been about a skills shortage, the problem in NZ has always been retaining the skills and that is why the current solutions from government will not work because the fundamental issue is bad wages and conditions in NZ and a culture of undervaluing and trying to save as much money as possible on wages while ignoring down stream effects that mean NZ is not productive and getting worse.

                  Having an endless supply of cheap workers in NZ are not going to make us more productive or creating quality offerings from construction, to hospitality to aged care, to IT or what have you. It instead creating more problems as existing people get poorer, taxes are spent on growing social problems, growing healthcare and education needs, while people coming here in real terms earn less and less than equivalent counter parts overseas.

            • McFlock 5.1.1.2.2.5

              35k immigrants for 100k houses in ten years – and I’m not sure where the 35k immigrant figure came from.

              Personally, I reckon a young ‘un dropping $20k on learning to be a builder now would be in good stead for a couple of decade’s work.

              Or is apprenticeship the only path to getting a builders qual?

              • KJT

                Apprenticeship is the only possible path.
                You cannot learn to build at a desk.
                Some high schools were teaching trades building a house for sale at the same time. Another State school initiative for non academics where funding was removed to pay for, for profit, schools.

              • SaveNZ

                Actually the figures being bandied around are 50,000 migrants needed not even 35,000 in 4 years so where are they going to live? They are not builders coming in, anybody, from painters to tilers are being applied for and the excuse is that Kiwi’s are not applying for their jobs but when looking into it, so of course they can’t get anybody at their 5 star standard for pay rates of $20p/h which is the rate for students in NZ not experienced trades people.

                https://www.newzealandshores.com/50000-jobs-nz-for-construction-workers/

                https://www.newsie.co.nz/news/97168-why-more-employers-are-bringing-skilled-migrants-to-nz.html

                Applications for 200 Chinese migrant worker visas to finish luxury Auckland hotel

                https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/101250384/applications-for-200-chinese-migrant-worker-visas-to-finish-luxury-auckland-hotel

                • SaveNZ

                  Just to be clear the main occupations coming to NZ on these skilled categories and needing that housing from 2016/2017…

                  Main occupations for Skilled Migrant Category principal applicants, 2016/17
                  Occupation 2016/17
                  Number %
                  Chef 684 5.7%
                  Registered Nurse (Aged Care) 559 4.6%
                  Retail Manager (General) 503 4.2%
                  Cafe or Restaurant Manager 452 3.7%

                  And among those who got (so-called) Essential Skills work visas

                  Number of people granted Essential Skills work visas by main occupations, 2016/17
                  Occupation Number %
                  Chef 2,178 6.6%
                  Dairy Cattle Farm Worker 1,617 4.9%
                  Carpenter 1,478 4.5%
                  Retail Supervisor 961 2.9%
                  Cafe or Restaurant Manager 942 2.9%
                  Retail Manager (General) 767 2.3%
                  Aged or Disabled Carer 748 2.3%

                  https://croakingcassandra.com/page/1/

                  • Blazer

                    Amazing numbers for retail there.Who would have thought that NZ needed to import skills in that vocation.

                    • SaveNZ

                      I think many of these are where the wink wink, $20k pay to get the job offer is coming from or job to get your relatives in… but clearly the whole thing is pathetic that the government is giving out these visas like lollies for fake low wage jobs that Kiwis, students, part time workers, disabled workers, people needing second chances and so forth can do, and are now unemployed instead. We can’t look after our own working poor, why the F would any sane government be piling more in to be looked after by government subsidies?

                • McFlock

                  Right, so that’s the number of jobs that will be open in the next few years, not the number of migrants required to fill them.

                  I agree that industry wants to import workers to keep wages down, but we’re not necessarily looking at a shortage of people. Just an industry with new jobs opening up.

                  I also suspect that kiwibuild (like the old state house constructions) will have an element of standardisation that will make construction less labour-intensive.

                  And if we do import tens of thousands of workers, that’ll be against the main drive to lower immigration overall – so other industries won’t get preferred immigration status and overall immigration still drops.

                  • greywarshark

                    It is good to read thoughtful analysis and not a load of emotional opinionated bollocks from the usual suspects.
                    Thanks McFlock and savenz and others too!

          • greywarshark 5.1.1.2.3

            Ad
            The demand side, ‘as you call it’ – is not a force of nature. You know perfectly well that our immigrant numbers are high and we haven’t run an intelligent housing policy for decades so we are not prepared for even a moderate population rise. Then there are the other facts of immigrants buying to hold their wealth and wait for capital accretion, and the market is really screwed.

            A better and more reasoned approach is my demand to you. or are you a force of nature?

      • AsleepWhileWalking 5.1.2

        Why is it do fucking hard to NOT SELL THE ASSET, in this case the land.

        Politicians are stupid. They know full well its a bad idea for NZ.

    • Bearded Git 5.2

      +100 Anker…James is here to distract from genuine debate on important issues…do not feed the Troll.

  6. Observer Tokoroa 6

    Abel Tasman
    James Cook

    Hi Morrissey

    It is a pity you have no empathy with Abel Tasman or James Cook . But please don’t brush the rest of us with your petty likes or dislikes.

    Hop back onto your lazy boy, and Contemplate that Zealand – is a strong bond with the Sea (ocean) and Aotearoa with the Sky.

    We use the one to sail upon, the other to fly upon .

    Do not wish either of them away! Thank you very much.

  7. ankerawshark 7

    no you come to troll James, not to read this site

    • james 7.1

      If you look to the right – there is a reply button.

      If you click it – you post a reply to a comment as opposed to a new thread.

      you can do it …

  8. Ffloyd 8

    I would like to see minute mike have an on camera sit down with Jacinda to debate his opinion the she has no backbone. He obviously has buried all recollection of keys time in Government. I must say he is looking extremely haggard and sooooo irrelevant. Time he moved and let a younger person have a go. My seven year old grandaughter would run rings around him. It annoys me that he can put any old garbage out there with no right of reply from anyone. First time I have clicked on to mm. Wish I hadn’t.

    • james 8.1

      “I would like to see minute mike have an on camera sit down with Jacinda to debate his opinion the she has no backbone.”

      So would I.

      All topics allowed.

      • Ffloyd 8.1.1

        Glad you agree. Never happen of course. He doesn’t have the backbone.

      • Ankerrawshark 8.1.2

        Why an earth would anyone listen to mike about how to be a boss/good leader. He to my knowledge has never managed staff. And he’s known to be a bully

  9. SaveNZ 9

    Three of four NZ fish ‘staring extinction in the face’

    “The data, which covered fish distribution and abundance trends, along with a key measure of water pollution called the Index of Biotic Integrity (IBI), showed more than three quarters of 25 analysed species were in decline.

    About the same rate of decline was found in 20 native fish species – and in two thirds of cases, the drop was a significant one.

    “We’ve gone from one species out of every five being in trouble to a situation where three species out of four are staring extinction in the face, and we’ve done it in one generation.”

    “Given the study’s findings, he said, it was “bizarre” that there was little protection for native fish.

    “And the fact that despite these declines and developed world’s worst proportion of threatened species we harvest them, the Department of Conservation [DoC] doesn’t protect them.”

    Joy acknowledged a just-announced amendment to the Conservation Act aimed at native freshwater fish, but added this only covered protected areas.

    “They have to get there first, through the polluted unprotected rivers.”

    He was also sceptical of new guidelines around structures built in rivers and streams that could impede migrating fish, criticising them as guidelines only.

    “Under the Freshwater Fisheries Act 1983, it is clearly stated it is illegal to block native fish passage – but there have been thousands of barriers put in since then and DoC has to my knowledge never used their powers under this act to do anything.”

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12121944&ref=rss

  10. R.P Mcmurphy 10

    the coalition supporters are getting really pissed off with the media in new zealand. it has become toxic with crypto tories like simon dallow, garna, merkin, hosking and soper duplicity alien being given free rein to peddle their views. time for the NZLP to start investing in line of sight micropulse radio stations. cheap as and just the thing for urban communication. if every tribesman in every valley in the hindu kush can do it then it is time for us to do it here to counter the slime being pushed out every day by the msm.

    • james 10.1

      “the coalition supporters are getting really pissed off with the media in new zealand. ”

      Didnt know you were their spokesperson – but congrats on getting the job.

      Love your idea – they should run with it – I have no doubt it will be a great success.

    • Ed 10.2

      Time for a major shakeup to the corporate media.
      We should follow Corbyn’s ideas.
      The time of the billionaire media barons will end.

  11. dukeofurl 11

    Good to see the Swedish general election hasnt seen the large swing to the hard right Democrats that the doomsayers were predicting.

    So far The Democrats are up 14 seats ( 349 seat parliament) but thats been entirely at the expense of traditional centre right Moderate party.

    The lead government party the Social Democrats are down 12 along with their partners the Greens down from 25 to 15 seats. However the other coalition party that rose were The Left ( once known as Communists) up 7.
    Other centrist partys who improved were The Centre up 8 and Christian Democrats up 7.

    Overall a slight edge to the existing coalition, who as before dont have a majority
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_general_election,_2018#Preliminary_results

  12. Observer Tokoroa 12

    What you get from Hosking.

    Jacinda Ardern is a 37yr old young woman, with a fine personality, a major grasp of Dirty Capitalism; and a world wide reputation as a significant Politician. Jacinda is our Prime Minister.

    Jacinda is all too much for little aging Mike Hosking. who has somehow inserted himself into the hearts and minds of Remuera – (Auckland’s Shallow Land) .

    Hosking throws his meat cleaver into Jacinda Ardern every opportunity he gets. Complete with his mean shit. He did again this morning.

    I don’t know exactly why most people on the Isthmus regard him as Shit in little Jeans – but I think it is because he can’t hold a candle to a person of the Carriage, the Looks and the Capability of Jacinda Ardern.

    Hosking who has everything – has given nothing to slummy Auckland.

    Hosking is a Disgrace. He lives as such with his microphone. He will likely die as such. A shallow Disgrace. The very definition of the Hollow man who hates and is hated.

    Good Bye Hosking

  13. Ffloyd 13

    He’s probably the only person alive who has to have a stepladder to get into his maserati or whatever Tonka toy he drives. He is an absolute waste of a minute. Tick tock. Zzzzzż!

  14. Ngungukai 14

    Master Minute Mike vs Jacindarella in an open public debate ?

  15. veutoviper 15

    Lost in all the crap that was written by the media and elsewhere (including on here!) about why the PM was wrong in only going to the Pacific island Forum in Nauru for one day, was this supportive and informative article by Fran O’Sullivan – yes in the Herald – on a visit to NZ that was barely reported and that Ardern would have missed if she had gone to Nauru for longer.

    That was the visit of the high-profile Japanese parliamentarian Shinjiro Koizumi as the 2018 Prime Minister’s fellow. Koizumi is the second son of former Prime Minister Junichirō Koizumi (Japan’s leader from 2001-2006). He has been the Chief Deputy Secretary General of the ruling Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) since August 2017 and is seen as a future leader.

    He was accompanied by two other parliamentarians who are also children of former prime ministers, with Takashi Yamashita, the Parliamentary Vice Minister of Justice, rounding up the delegation.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12119888&ref=NZH_Tw

    This is a really interesting article in relation to NZ’s future relationship with Japan through, amongst other things, commonalities arising from the similar age and interests of Ardern and Koizumi discussed in the article (human rights, renewable energy, phasing out of nuclear power); the re-energizing of the bilateral relationship with Japan; and strengthening co-operation in the delivery of our respective development assistance programmes in the Pacific.

    O’Sullivan comments that she was initially of the view that Ardern should have gone with Peters earlier in the week, and that it was essential that she did go. However, she is now of the opinion that Ardern’s staying back for the Koizumi visit was money well spent.

  16. gsays 16

    I have heard on RNZ that the state is stalling doing the right thing in paying family who are care givers. Can’t find a link.

    They have spent millions on legal fees, unsuccessfully defending their position in courts. With more litigation to come.

    Stop throwing good money after bad and do the correct thing. Pay these people. It is to comply with court rulings and morally right to do so.

    • BM 16.1

      No money left for caregivers.

      The money was spent on more important things like the free tertiary education bribe, Peters 3 billion dollar re-election fund and government subsidised new first homes for the middle classes.

      • SaveNZ 16.1.1

        See link above one of the

        Number of people granted Essential Skills work visas by main occupations, 2016/17
        Occupation Number %

        Aged or Disabled Carer 748 2.3%

        Ok, so the government won’t pay local people and they have to go to court to get minimum wages, but this has nothing to do with the skills shortage of aged or disabled carers as the 5th most imported in career category for essential skills…

        don’t forget family members are not allowed to be paid to leave work and look after loved ones, from what I can make out… (might be wrong)… but getting someone on minimum wages from other side of world is a better option apparently…

        What also really angers me, is that often the people are vulnerable when disabled or old and they are essentially being short changed in many areas from a system that is very punitive and has created a complicated system to save money when local people in this country pay taxes and ACC levies which should buy them quality care, not the cheapest care the government can subcontract to to also save money by employing the cheapest people from around the world who don’t ask too many questions from their employeer (even more laughingly appears to be on paper from what I understand it, the person needing care who might be intellectually disabled or completely unable in any real sense to be their employeer).

    • veutoviper 16.2

      Here you are – link to latest article. Other recent related article are on the right.

      https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/national/366105/families-fed-up-with-government-s-glacial-pace-on-disabled-care-pay

  17. joe90 17

    Thread about umpiring shenanigans makes it pretty damn clear that the Serena Williams debacle was motivated by sexism.

    Djokovic Gets Into Argument With Same Umpire Carlos Ramos at French Open, multiple violations did not result in docked point or game. https://t.co/qkZv2SNE7O— Has The Umpire Been Fired Yet? (@AgentTinsley) September 9, 2018

    https://twitter.com/AgentTinsley/status/1038619677688135686

    • humma 17.1

      Serena is just a disgusting bully. No sexism or racism or whatever ism. She said that having a child made here not a cheat?
      She has history of abuse too. Telling a ballboy or girl that she was going to ram the f-ing ball down their f-ing throat.
      No more despicable person than Serena. She lost, she played badly, was going to lose anyway and stole the show away from a humble gracious person that is Naomi Osaka.
      Coward and bully.

      • McFlock 17.1.1

        “No more despicable person”?

        Bit harsh.
        McInroe was a bit of a dick.
        And there’s, like, Rolf Harris…

        I dunno. Sporty things aren’t my cup of tea – I get why the athletes get amp’d to the point of making really dickish choices, but I don’t see what the fans get worked up about, usually.

        And umpires can have Very Bad Days, too – questionable calls should never decide a match. But people do seem to be pointing to equivalent behaviour that did not receive the same punishment, let alone decide the match.

      • Gabby 17.1.2

        I wouldn’t go that far bj, but everything obviously is all about her.

      • mauī 17.1.3

        Agreed, it was disgraceful. Serena not only ruined the match but the prize giving ceremony too by making it all about her. Osaka is a hero in comparison.

      • marty mars 17.1.4

        What a load of shit – she is a great champion – end of. Typical that some jumped up little man couldn’t take it and then lashed out to shit on the game and make it all about him.

      • joe90 17.1.5

        The heads of the Women’s Tennis Association and USTA (which puts on the U.S. Open) sided with Serena.

        Just another day in the workplace, sexism and double standards.

        The WTA, however, backed up Williams’ claims of sexism regarding the way she was treated by Ramos with its chief executive, Simon, releasing a statement.

        Simon said: “Yesterday brought to the forefront the question of whether different standards are applied to men and women in the officiating of matches. The WTA believes that there should be no difference in the standards of tolerance provided to the emotions expressed by men v women and is committed to working with the sport to ensure that all players are treated the same. We do not believe that this was done.”

        […]

        Following the match, the United States Tennis Association, which runs the US Open, released a statement from its president, Katrina Adams, hailing Williams for her “class” and “sportsmanship”.

        Appearing on ESPN, Adams also claimed there are double standards in terms of how umpires treat women and men. Adams said: “We watch the guys do this all the time, they’re badgering the umpire on the changeovers. Nothing happens. There’s no equality. I think there has to be some consistency across the board. These are conversations that will be imposed in the next weeks.

        https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/sep/10/serena-williams-wta-us-open-sexism-carlos-ramos

  18. Reality 18

    New article in the Herald by David Cormack re Claire Curran’s resignation. So much more intelligent, fair, reasoned and balanced than the Soper/Hosking rabid rants. Was a pleasure to read.

  19. eco maori 19

    Good morning The Am Show The police have changed under shonky rule they no longer serve te tangata they serve them selves they control the media they are on TV all day every day distorting the reality of there callous action’s bad story’s are covered up ??????????.
    They have no complaint’s process they distort the course of justice by telling Lawyers not to represent people. Well I will file my class action myself stop that muppets.
    The situation in Idlib in the Middle East is shocking this is going to create a humanitarian crisis that will affect all the countrys in the region.
    Condolences to the family of the lady who pasted in Bali death is all part of life.
    There is a part of the story you are not telling they had the money why did they not fly her home .I guest that she was to sick to travel .
    Mark its good you are trying to speak te reo I get mixed up because I know a lot of Ngati Porou I was rasied hearing that reo .Because I am tied up with the sandflys if not I would be studying te reo full time.
    The process of retrieving our tipunas body parts has been going on for 50 years not 5 minutes Duncan. Your definition of nudge is not correct you are playing your little harp hard on the Bali subject
    Harmony is what I back between Aotearoa’s 2 main cultures is what is needed not one side getting it’s cake and eating our’s as well.
    Come on Duncan shonky sold off 49% of our power generators .
    The transmission companies are over legislated and don’t get enough funding the generators and suppliers are under legislated this is the business first model shonky installed to benefit his share market m8’s at the cost of the common tangata milking it.
    Most of the proffets from our natural resources flowing into foreigners pockets.
    Ka kite ano P.S you mite think I should keep my move quiet but the sandflys are illegally monitoring all Eco Maori COM

  20. eco maori 20

    A capital gains tax will be a good tax that taxes the wealthy who can afford to pay more.
    A capital gains taxes people who make money from gain’s that have a little labour exerted to gain that money they are shares property business capital.
    judith collins would prefer to raise GST to 20 % and lie that that’s a fair tax system when we know that that tax cost the poor common person who has to spend all there money just to survive she would lie like shonkys famous words I WILL NO RAISE GST .
    Enough said link below ka kite ano

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12122678

  21. eco maori 21

    Here we go another attack on the rights of the commoners around Papatuanuku .
    He is pandering to his dictator m8 and all the Wars that are raging around the world are about the wealthy lining there pocket’s at the expense of the common poor .
    This ancient greedy un humane behavior has to be stopped. link below ka kite ano.

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/10/trump-attack-on-icc-is-the-unacceptable-face-of-us-exceptionalism

  22. eco maori 23

    This what I think of polls there used by people to put the common person off voting
    Link below Ka kite ano

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/sep/10/polls-broken-blind-spots–blue-wave-hopes-swell

  23. eco maori 25

    I have already put this person in his place what Eco Maori gets ——— about is these trolls with a silver spoon in there mouth still living off there mom an dad making stupid comments about Maori I can see they are raciest bigots
    Lets get this straight maori are still getting the short end of the stick were are these privileges that you people say and lie about all I see is most Maori are broke working 60 a week just to survive we have no money to go on holiday or see the beautiful sites of our country . I look around and the only people driving vehicles that have had a 21 birth day are Maori. If our country was run by idiots like these trolls we would be treated like the Tangata whenua in Australia & America our tipuna have fort tooth and nail for what little rights and wealth we have so ——-off trolls in the comments on this story from this plastic maori.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/106878277/mori-succeeding-in-parliament-just-fine-without-need-to-entrench-seats .

  24. McFlock 26

    Here’s a surprise: A business group’s survey about the employment law changes asked a loaded question that skewed the results.

    Shocked, shocked I tells ya.

    edit – argh shit wrong OM lol

    • ianmac 26.1

      Wot a big surprise. Not.
      There are about 500,000 businesses in NZ but only 500 selected ones were surveyed. Wonder why their intentions are? Can’t guess.

  25. Eco Maori 27

    Good evening Newshub there you go the power price for businesses has dropped by25 % in the same time frame household power price have gone up 79% we are subserdising business once again.
    That storm Florence hitting America at the minute is mean be care full people.
    Maori culture will be getting good exposure when our VIP guests arrive.
    Those old timeers from Australia getting 50 million for there farm deserve there windfall Ka pai. They look like they worked hard all there life watch out for the vultures with no wings they will rip them off.
    Ka kite ano P.S I had to switch devices the sandflys are stuffing with my computer once again muppets

  26. eco maori 28

    Good evening The Crowd Goes Wild good reo James and Wairangi I have decided to refrain from commenting on our Aotearoa and Papatuanuku sport’s stars Ka kite ano

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