Open mike 10/11/2020

136 comments on “Open mike 10/11/2020 ”

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1. Foreign waka 1

   10 November 2020 at 7:00 am

   Can someone put some pressure on WINZ to get people who have lost their job their benefit?

   I have a friend who has been made redundant and with Christmas coming up, a mortgage to pay, kids and family to look after it becomes increasingly clear that some major distress is happening. WINZ has not responded after my friend was on the phone for almost 8 hours over a period since last week. Has been promised that a case worker will call within 48 hours. Yeah right! Of cause not.

   Merry Christmas looks like the worst for especially those made redundant. Talk about insult to injury. My distain for this agency is right now without bounds.

   Maybe it needs to be privatised or some other plan put in place because it clearly is not working if there is such lack of response.
   I would like to know whether any prospective beneficiaries have gone into depression and worst still, could not see a way out of it due to lack of financial help.
   • Rosemary McDonald 1.1

     10 November 2020 at 8:27 am

     Can someone put some pressure on WINZ …?

     Hah! Don't hold your breath Sunshine because it would appear this Current Mob have little to no intention of any meaningful repair of our Social Safety Net.

     Last night weka posted this…

     https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/11/livestream-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-s-post-cabinet-press-conference.html

     …the truly depressing bit starts around 27 minutes.

     I always harboured doubts that it was entirely Winston applying the handbrake on enacting the reforms considered urgent by the WEAG…and to hear Our Leader opening her press conference with her calendar with much emphasis on her meetings with "business"…it's abandon ye all hope time.

     Huge respect for these organisations…

     https://medium.com/actionstation/open-letter-increase-income-support-before-christmas-7960c5100b10

     …who at least gave it a go.

     SSDD
     • Foreign waka 1.1.1

       10 November 2020 at 11:05 am

       I doubt anyone will take any of it onboard. Very soon we will know what carrier politicians are and not capable off.

       Beneficiaries get the fob off because its soo good now, isn't it.
     • Sabine 1.1.2

       10 November 2020 at 11:14 am

       Jacinda Ardern and her spokesperson for Winz Carmel Sepuloni were clear about what beneficiaries could expect should they get in again. Nothing. A wet handshake, a meaningless course in CV writing, a stern lecture about the vlaue of work and other then that nothing.

       Under utilisation rate for women in NZ currently sits at almost 20% (per gov. ), not a word about that, 5.9 % unemployment is average, regional it looks much much worse, unemployed who have partners with jobs will be refused any help cause……partner, and so on and so forth.

       Winz has been understaffed before Covid, and now its severely understaffed, but nothing is done. Reform to Winz will only come with a government that actually wants to reform, and the Labour is not the party that will reform anything.
       • Phillip ure 1.1.2.1

         10 November 2020 at 11:44 am

         My heart sank when sepuloni was again given that portfolio …(as it did when she first got it..)….and arderns' promise yesterday to do s.f.a. about what she said previously/time and time again ..was a top priority priority for her…poverty.. just has that heart sinking more and more…my son just noted that he thinks ardern will do/is doing an obama…acclaimed internationally…and doing s.f.a. domestically to earn any acclaim…she/labour are neoliberal incrementalists..’moderates’.she/they haven't changed those stripes/spots at all…and any optimism I may have had since the election re ardern/labour actually doing something meaningful..is well and truly down the crapper..and of course another question to ask is: is marama able to comment on this promise from ardern to do nothing with any sense of urgency about poverty..?..or is she muzzled by the deal the greens have with labour….?..and any labour loyalists here willing to defend arderns' promise to do s.f.a…?…
         • Treetop 1.1.2.1.1

           10 November 2020 at 12:49 pm

           My heart sank when she got the ACC portfolio. The government will probably stall decisions to do with the Royal Commission of Inquiry. The ACC system is inadequate when it comes to anomalies related to historical sexual assault in or out of state care.
         • alwyn 1.1.2.1.2

           10 November 2020 at 1:34 pm

           The problem reminds me of a bumper sticker that was put onto cars in the United States late in 1965.

           This was after Lyndon Johnson, who claimed he didn't want a larger war in Vietnam, had run, and won, against Barry Goldwater in the 1964 election. Johnson had labelled Barry as being someone who wanted to increase the US troops in Vietnam whereas he, Lyndon wasn't planning to do so. At the time of the 1964 election there were US advisers but no ground troops involved directly.

           Anyway the sticker read, and was quite accurate in its words, something like "They said if I voted for Goldwater there would be 200,000 US troops on Vietnam by the end of 1965. Well I did and there are".

           Perhaps you should prepare a sticker that says something like "They said if I voted for ACT all benefits would be frozen for the next 3 years. Well I did and they have been".

           Now just why did you think it would be different?
           • Tricledrown 1.1.2.1.2.1

             10 November 2020 at 7:16 pm

             Alwyn your claim and Barry Goldwaters LBJ's of no US ground troops in Vietnam pre 1964 is untrue officially it may have been true.

             The US and even NZ had part of its Malaysian deployment on the ground in Vietnam the 1950s.NZ has always worked closely with the US even when it appears our politicians deny it.

             A close friend of mine fought in the secret war
             • In Vino …

               10 November 2020 at 7:55 pm

               Thanks Tricledrown

               Nothing can now be substantiated, but from what I have gathered from history and Establishment lies, I suspect you are telling the truth.
               But that is because I sympathise. Alwyn will know only what suits him.
               • Tricledrown …

                 10 November 2020 at 10:58 pm

                 The French pulled out from 1954 onwards so how were the viet Minh kept at bay for 10 years with officially only 200 helicopters and a few advisors
             • joe90 …

               10 November 2020 at 8:25 pm

               The US and even NZ had part of its Malaysian deployment on the ground in Vietnam the 1950s.

               AFAIK the US never participated in the Malaysian crisis. It was a UK/Commonwealth military operation with NZ troops withdrawing from Malaya in 1960, returning along side other Commonwealth forces during the 1963/66 Indonesia–Malaysia confrontation.

               In 1963 New Zealand sent a civilian surgical team to Vietnam and later that a year small non-combatant force was deployed. 161 Battery was deployed to Vietnam in 1965 and in 1967 a forces medical team was sent. All forces were withdrawn in 1971.

               But hey, link away to any alternative history.

               /
               • In Vino …

                 10 November 2020 at 9:10 pm

                 There are now probably fake links to fake history, given 4 years of Trump, who did not start that process..

                 But I would beware of total trust in official records.

                 We all tread a wobbly tightrope.
               • McFlock …

                 10 November 2020 at 9:45 pm

                 Interesting to hear that the infantry units, forward air controllers, and special forces soldiers we sent to Vietnam were non-combatants.

                 From a NZ govt website:

                 In May 1967, a 182-strong rifle company dubbed Victor (V) was deployed from the 1st Battalion, Royal New Zealand Infantry Regiment (1RNZIR) base in West Malaysia

                 and:

                 Over a five-year period, the nine New Zealand rifle companies rotating through Nui Dat engaged in a constant round of jungle patrols, ambushes, and cordon-and-search operations. Less than a week after arriving, Victor Company had its first enemy contact, leaving one Viet Cong killed, another possibly wounded and five suspects detained. [2] This inaugural, small-scale action characterised the pace and scale of infantry operations in Vietnam

                 But I suppose any ".govt.nz" web address can be a link to an alternative history /sarc
                 • joe90 …

                   10 November 2020 at 9:55 pm

                   161 were the first combatants deployed
                   • joe90 …

                     10 November 2020 at 10:16 pm

                     btw, over the years I've heard my share of the NZ civilian employees/CIA cross border incursions/atrocities/bounties/severed heads etc yarns from folk who knew someone who knew someone, and while there's likely a wee kernel of truth behind some of these, I'd rate them alongside the sewer staple of Goff/Clark spitting at returning servicemen, mostly bullshit.
                   • McFlock …

                     10 November 2020 at 10:24 pm

                     Ah ok fair call, missed the 1950s bit.
                   • Tricledrown …

                     10 November 2020 at 11:30 pm

                     Joe 90.The first official combatants.

                     my friend who fought in Malaysia but was secretly deployed to Vietnam in the late 1950s along with other Kiwi Australian and British soldiers .
               • Tricledrown …

                 10 November 2020 at 11:04 pm

                 Joe 90 your right about the US not being involved in Malaysia but the Domino effect of communism spreading through south east Asia was a US program of preventing the spread.NZ was a close ally of the US fighting alongside the US in Korea and sharing intelligence which has been the case through to the present day.
   • SPC 1.2

     10 November 2020 at 9:47 am

     Two external options, see the local MP and call in a Beneficiary Advocate. An MP phoning the manager at an office is always an effective process time saver.

     With the organisation, the key determinant is paperwork (check on-line what is required) and getting an in the office appointment time (sorting it all by phone – probably not enough unless paperwork can be scanned) – booking appointment times can be made by phone or on-line.
     • Kay 1.2.1

       10 November 2020 at 10:29 am

       booking appointment times can be made by phone or on-line.

       Although they will do everything possible to prevent you seeing a real person. They don't like that. Be prepared for being told it can all be done online (including scanning in the necessary documents), only to find their computer can't cope with the answers you've given and tells you to phone them. Then the performance involved there.
     • Foreign waka 1.2.2

       10 November 2020 at 11:00 am

       All done and dusted but still, I think they just don't want to help. Maybe they get a bonus for every person left to fend for themselves.
       I am so glad that the Billions we have paid for Air NZ are going to a good cause (sarc).
       • Kay 1.2.2.1

         10 November 2020 at 11:18 am

         Maybe they get a bonus for every person left to fend for themselves.

         At one point they were, that and deliberately denying all entitlements. It was common knowledge in our circles but then they got sprung publicly, the powers that be got a bit embarrassed and the practice supposedly was stopped. But there's still a suspicion that it goes on to a degree. Certainly under National Governments it does.
       • Rosemary McDonald 1.2.2.2

         10 November 2020 at 2:28 pm

         Maybe they get a bonus …

         Wendy Shoebridge ….driven to suicide by heartless WINZ system.

         Monthly quotas were imposed at the Ministry of Social Development to prosecute beneficiaries, an inquest into the death of a woman accused of benefit fraud has heard.

         "We had to get one prosecution per month. We had to get $30,000 of debt to be recovered per month," a former MSD investigator told the inquest into the death of Wendy Shoebridge. "Four cases had to be cleared per month."

         Shoebridge, a 41-year-old mother, was found dead in Lower Hutt on April 3, 2011.

         The day before, she opened a letter saying she was to be referred for prosecution over an alleged $22,000 benefit fraud. After her death, that amount fell to about $5500.

         It eventually found she had not committed any offence at all.

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/87541297/compassion-for-vulnerable-from-woman-who-died-after-false-fraud-accusation

         https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/87347930/aggressive-prosecution-focus-at-msd-preceded-womans-death-inquest-told?rm=m
       • Tricledrown 1.2.2.3

         10 November 2020 at 11:09 pm

         The case managers employed under 9 years of National were taught to be deliberately obstructive.
         • Descendant Of Smith 1.2.2.3.1

           11 November 2020 at 6:35 am

           And Labour appointed as Chief Executive one of the architects of the toxic culture that existed even more so under National. Someone from an advocacy group should be made the CE to get some real change.

           A labour government who has removed including non-qualified spouses in super making future spouses $130 per week worse off as they will have to go on benefit not super now to "modernise the benefit system" which basically means where there is one income (e.g. due to one partner having a disability or just any reason at all) the working partner will now have to work longer – such modern thinking, a labour government who charges the poorest 25% of their income to pay for their emergency accommodation to make it "fair" and to "help them" adjust when they get better accommodation – so helpful, a labour government who had the most public support ever to increase benefits once the WEAG report was published and chose not to and then created a two tier benefit system for predominantly white workers when COVID struck leaving the existing poor and disabled down at the bottom where apparently they belong even though it was pointed out how racist this was, how other countries were providing stimulus payments to the poorest as they spent all their money in the economy, that the most disadvantaged would find it even harder to find work now as they would be competing against the newly unemployed with job skills and that WINZ resources would no doubt be moved away from the existing clients to help the newly (mainly European) unemployed and the newly labour berefit like noisy orchardists and agriculturalists who can't get their overseas captive labour and lastly that emergency assistance payments had gone up rapidly as people were falling into more and more hardship both costing money, costing peoples time having to apply and costing staff time that could be better utilised to help people find work than process food grant after food grant after food grant..

           In other words business as it has been with a few nice temporary factors like winter payments.

           Real change will come if they:

           1. Increase benefits as per WEAG
           2. Put comprehensive rent controls in – I favour the New York type rent control where a rent board decides how much rents can go up each year – hint it isn't much.
           3. Reduce the age of NZS back to 60 to level the playing field more for those with disabilities and Maori who have shorter life expectancy – just get the super back through taxation for those who both work and get NZS – the extra money will provide economic stimulus as well.

           Of course none of these things will happen but lots of money will be spent on infrastructure projects, short-term work schemes and so on.
   • Kay 1.3

     10 November 2020 at 10:33 am

     “I would like to know whether any prospective beneficiaries have gone into depression and worst still, could not see a way out of it due to lack of financial help.”

     You might want to include current beneficiaries in that question.
   • RedBaronCV 1.4

     10 November 2020 at 11:49 am

     Would he be better off to register a company and apply for a small business loan from the IRD at 0% if that is possible. I'm all for the small business support but I'm sure as repayment time approaches at least some will collapse the company rather than repay the money. Is the IRD taking a personal guarantee?
     • RedBaronCV 1.4.1

       10 November 2020 at 12:06 pm

       Maybe not for the IRD. but surely Winz could at least jam through a basic benefit for applicants and catch up with the detail later. Everyone else seems to be getting the high trust model. And no I don't warm to Carmel or the labour party handling of the wage paid workforce or those who need Winz.

       Except they seem to divert excess resources to those on super – so the older's don't complain.
       • Phillip ure 1.4.1.1

         10 November 2020 at 12:23 pm

         So you use this to attack those receiving superannuation…?…w t.f..!…one thing the ardern gummint mk 1. did for those on super..was nothing…but there was no complaint/lobbying from the oldies…'cos they know that poverty for sole-parent/the unemployed..and their children.. is far worse …..your imputation that ardern has been filling the coffers of the elderly to the detriment of those living in poverty..with 'excess resources'..is factually incorrect..and is bullshit-on-a-stick..
         • RedBaronCV 1.4.1.1.1

           10 November 2020 at 12:40 pm

           Didn't mean that to sound as an attack on superannuitants.

           I was talking about the service level (not money) that superannuitants seem to get from Winz and I know some who feel deeply uncomfortable about it being so good when the rest of the service seems so bad. My point was that if Winz can do a decent service level for the supers then they could do the same for everyone else as well. Second point was "is the service level so high to stop any potential complainers" .
           • Phillip ure 1.4.1.1.1.1

             10 November 2020 at 1:02 pm

             @ r. baron…Point taken…there is a seachange in attitude from how the unemployed etc. are treated…as to how superannuitants are looked after…it is palpable..that change…and yes..there is no reason why those in need of state support should be treated so shabbily by the govt. department tasked with caring for them..
           • Patricia 2 1.4.1.1.1.2

             10 November 2020 at 5:43 pm

             Who said WINZ do a decent service for the elderly ? I advocated very recently for NZ Super clients ; waited for nearly an hour only to be told that a return call would be made in the next 24 hours. And when pressed for a more exact time we were told " What does it matter ? You have all the time in the world now".

             And the return call never came.
         • The Al1en 1.4.1.1.2

           10 November 2020 at 12:48 pm

           ardern has been filling the coffers of the elderly to the detriment of those living in poverty..with 'excess resources'..is factually incorrect..and is bullshit-on-a-stick..

           As always you've plumped for a gross generalisation, but there are clearly wealthy on super with mortgage free million dollar homes and large savings accounts. Aren't they having their considerable resources bumped up by a payment that could, and should, be used to assist the lowest income earners?

           As for bullshit on a stick – Have you tried holding the other end?
           • RedBaronCV 1.4.1.1.2.1

             10 November 2020 at 12:51 pm

             See my replies to the others –
           • Foreign waka 1.4.1.1.2.2

             10 November 2020 at 12:53 pm

             Parliamentarians? I doubt that they will cut their cloth. 165k income, bonus, health and super paid for, transport etc…. yeah, it must be truly difficult.
           • Phillip ure 1.4.1.1.2.3

             10 November 2020 at 1:06 pm

             @ the allen…means-testing of superannuitants is a separate issue…(one I have sympathy for)…you are conflating the two…
             • Phillip ure …

               10 November 2020 at 1:14 pm

               B.t.w…those rich boomers don't have to suck from the superannuation-trough…it's not compulsory..you have to apply for it…those rich taking it are just greedy bastards…end-of-story..
               • Janet …

                 10 November 2020 at 1:44 pm

                 You are right , you do have to apply to be a superannuate, it is not automatic. Those who really don,t need it have applied for it.
             • The Al1en …

               10 November 2020 at 2:15 pm

               Not a separate issue at all as it speaks directly to your rejection of the premise that "ardern has been filling the coffers of the elderly to the detriment of those living in poverty", when that is exactly what happens when a wealthy senior takes the pension.

               Of course, I didn’t generalise and claim all seniors – Just the wealthy ones with no morality and/or civic responsibility.
           • Phillip ure 1.4.1.1.2.4

             10 November 2020 at 1:19 pm

             @ the allen..your final sentence/question is meaningless…are you having a go @ humour..?
           • RosieLee 1.4.1.1.2.5

             10 November 2020 at 1:52 pm

             And there are also elderly whose rent takes most of their super and who have had to run their savings down to qualify for any supplements, making living a bit precarious.
             And, all over the country pensioner units are being sold off in the larger cities.
             • The Al1en …

               10 November 2020 at 2:11 pm

               All equally true and valid observations.
       • Foreign waka 1.4.1.2

         10 November 2020 at 12:42 pm

         Ah yes, just play one group of vulnerable against the other.

         What about those BILLIONS! we, the taxpayer have forked out to give a 50% state company like Air NZ board some enormous share option and bonus pay. Or all those other companies with huge profits sponging of the low pay and slim middle class? Only a government where non of those sitting ever had anything like an "essential" job can come up with a farce like that.
         • RedBaronCV 1.4.1.2.1

           10 November 2020 at 12:50 pm

           See above. I was on service level not money. All should enjoy the same service level as the supers.

           And I'm as deeply unhappy about about AirNZ as a lot of other corporate behaviour I Have complained about on here
           • The Al1en 1.4.1.2.1.1

             10 November 2020 at 2:21 pm

             Indeed the service level is as unfair a playing field as the weekly pay cheques given.

             One lot just have to prove to be old, the others tasked with myriad hoop jumping to often get much less.
         • RedBaronCV 1.4.1.2.2

           10 November 2020 at 1:28 pm

           I've spent some time thinking how shareholders could reign in the excesses of the managerial class who are the main beneficiaries of business profits at the expense of both labour and to some extent capital providers. Both capital providers and labour lose if a business goes broke but the managerial class just banks the gains.

           Shareholders can pass meeting resolutions. The best I've come up with so far is for the top 5% to 10% of earners (based on FTE wages) in a company can earn only x times the median wagein the company , or maybe x times the FTE of the bottom 50%.

           If there was a pool set for the top earners then they could could fight it out amongst them selves and pay the high priced technocrat they need more than the generalist manager. It's how to set that pool – and as I say these thoughts are a work in progress.

           In the meantime Airnz shareholder aka the government should be on the phone. If they did not know then they need a CEO with a little more vision and political smarts.
           • alwyn 1.4.1.2.2.1

             10 November 2020 at 1:41 pm

             "they need a CEO with a little more vision and political smarts.".

             I'm sorry but the last CEO they had with those skills resigned and left the airline on September 25 last year. He has picked up a new job since that time.

             Still he will probably have the responsibility as the share-holding Minister in about 3 years time. You can but hope.
             • Tricledrown …

               10 November 2020 at 5:18 pm

               Alwynger you must be joking you know nothing or are Gerry Brownlee.

               All Airlines have suffered catastrophic losses to blame the CEO who was the former CEO of Walmart a business bigger than the whole of New Zealands economy .

               He has been given a hospital pass.

               He turned Walmarts fortunes around was on a massive income before he took on the role of CEO of Air NZ for pocket change .

               He changed the way Walmart treated staff making sure staff were remunerated well as opposed to the minimum wage ideology of the founder and previous CEO's .

               Now a vaccine is looking more hopeful we need his nouse and connections to rebuild Air New Zealand.
               • alwyn …

                 10 November 2020 at 5:47 pm

                 You really are delusional aren't you?

                 Why are you addressing your comment to me instead of to the Red Baron?

                 He (or she) is the one who was complaining about the nous of the current CEO of Air New Zealand.

                 Still I should not be surprised. You were the one who, the other day, seemed to think that I approved of Trump. Clearly your comprehension of things verges on the side of incoherence. You also seem to be quite incapable of even spelling my name. I guess your end of year school report should simply say "Must try harder"
                 • Tricledrown …

                   10 November 2020 at 6:26 pm

                   Alwynger i take poetic license to take you to task over your continual whinging and untruths about any Left wing initiatives.

                   Your right up their with Gosman with your cynicism.

                   If you put facts up like how Mike Sabin resigned and NZfirst reduced The National majority even further would be good.

                   I did have dyslexia growing up not unlike Winston Churchill who struggled with school till he turned 19 then it suddenly disappeared where he went on to be one of the most influential people in history and is responsible for you not speaking Japanese or German and allowing you to have the freedom to speak at all.I was at the bottom of most of my classes during high school but not long before I turned 16 a light switched on and suddenly I went to the top of the class in most subjects except English comprehension.

                   Suddenly I could speed read whole books libraries of books .

                   When it comes to knowledge I am a library you are a cheap gossip magazine.
                 • Tricledrown …

                   10 November 2020 at 11:17 pm

                   Alwyn shifting the blame lame.

                   You make comments that Christopher luxton was a better CEO .At a time when international tourism grew exponentially ,its easy to look good when business expands without having to do much.

                   Your ACT party would have let AirNZ go to the wall no govt help.
     • Sabine 1.4.2

       10 November 2020 at 12:12 pm

       As for government loans to start a business….here

       Who can get it

       You may be able to get a Self-employment start up payment if:

       • either:
         • you or your partner are getting a main benefit, or
         • you qualify and have applied for a main benefit
         • you're getting New Zealand Superannuation or a Veteran's Pension as a non-qualified partner
       • and you're either
         • starting a new business, or
         • need help to become self-sufficient in an existing business.

       The maximum payout is $10,000 in one year, and you or your partner will need to be already receiving a WINZ benefit.

       see here : https://www.workandincome.govt.nz/products/a-z-benefits/self-employment-start-up-payment.html

       Covid contingency small business loan – administered by IRD

       https://www.business.govt.nz/news/covid-19-support-for-small-businesses/

       small Business Cashflow (Loan) Scheme

       What it is: Low-interest one-off loan of up to $10,000 + $1,800 for each full-time equivalent employee.

       • 3% interest rate
       • repay over 5 years
       • no payments in first 2 years — but you can choose to make payments
       • payments handled by Inland Revenue.

       No interest charged if you pay back the loan within a year.

       Who can get it:

       Smaller businesses struggling financially due to the COVID-19 pandemic, including:

       • businesses with up 50 employees
       • sole traders
       • self-employed people.

       As with any loan, you must also be able to show you can pay it back. Your business needs to be viable, with a plan to stay that way.

       so again, its not just done by registering a company, you actually have to prove you have a viable business in order to get the business contingency loan, or alternatively you have to be on a WINZ benefit to apply for hte Self Employment Start Up.

       If there is a 0% interest business loan other then that that is available through IRD please link as that would be interesting news.
   • Janet 1.5

     10 November 2020 at 12:35 pm

     First question , has he gone looking for work ?
     • Sabine 1.5.1

       10 November 2020 at 12:47 pm

       What has he looking for a job got to do with a Failure of Winz to do the job they are paid to do? Namely answering the phones in a timely manner, scheduling person/person meetings to get paperwork sorted and benefits given should all legal requirements be met?
     • Foreign waka 1.5.2

       10 November 2020 at 12:50 pm

       Janet, are you joking? Of cause my friend did (he or she). But that short time before Christmas coupled with a person being in their 50's seem to be the combination that really gets you into some serious trouble.

       Euthanasia anybody?

       But maybe you know how to get a handout like Air NZ or Briscoes. Very grateful for any hint.
       • Janet 1.5.2.1

         10 November 2020 at 1:46 pm

         Well actually "Christmas coming and being in their 50.s " sounds a bit like an excuse not to be looking for a job .
         • Foreign waka 1.5.2.1.1

           10 November 2020 at 2:59 pm

           My friend is looking for a job rest assured. Do you honestly believe you can feed a family on a benefit? Not to mention that this friend has worked all their life and find themselves for the first time in such situation. Do you actually understand what such event does to you psychologically? The anguish not to be able get bills paid, the sleepless nights, the worry. No wonder people kill themselves in droves here.
           I don't have words for you comments really – you really don't know what the back ground is and put a judgement onto this person. Are you working for WINZ?
           • Janet 1.5.2.1.1.1

             10 November 2020 at 4:57 pm

             No I am not judging. I support the UBI theory where we do not have to be in your friends position, hanging on the whims of WINZ. We have a funny situation here in NZ at the moment. In front of me I have the latest Farmers Weekly … screaming out for workers in horticulture, diarying you name it. Screaming at the government for not bringing migrant workers in . Migrant workers who up and leave their wives and families for 6 months or more to pick up a dollar in NZ. They go home "rich " men in the societies they come from, but their being here has in the meantime held down wages, making it unattractive for ours to now go out and pick up these jobs.

             Somehow we have to get this situation rebalanced , without migrant workers. In the end it will mean our food costs more…
             • Foreign waka …

               10 November 2020 at 6:50 pm

               This is true but equally one cannot expect someone to uproot the family, maybe renting the house (mortgaged) out and paying rent at the other end, new schools for the kids and all that for a few months. As a report recently showed, it is for the majority work at minimum rate. My friend has arthritis which really makes picking in the orchards etc not a viable option. I also think we need to be careful to abstain from asking every unemployed person to take up picking "for the good of the nation", it borders on forced labour.

               BTW, I am very much for the UBI which would as a very desirable side effect by removing a large swat of bureaucrats who believe they can play god with peoples lives.
   • weka 1.6

     10 November 2020 at 7:17 pm

     I agree with the advice about local MP and a beneficiary advocate.

     Privatising WINZ would make it worse. There's not good reason why WINZ can't function well other than the ideologies of successive governments (Nat and Lab) that have fucked the system up so much. At the moment it's under staffing.

     IMO Carmel Sepuloni should be replaced.
2. stunned mullet 2

   10 November 2020 at 7:42 am

   Pfizer's vaccine looking promising but still a fair bit of follow up to do.

   https://www.statnews.com/2020/11/09/covid-19-vaccine-from-pfizer-and-biontech-is-strongly-effective-early-data-from-large-trial-indicate/

   I'm becoming more confident that we'll see a vaccine available for us in NZ towards the middle of next year.
   • SPC 2.1

     10 November 2020 at 12:44 pm

     They will have billion of them by the end of the year.

     We should have half of our share (M) 500,000 by mid-year. Plenty for the health workers/aged care workers, border workers, front of public workers and workers with pre existing conditions.

     We also have stakes in other vaccines in development – such as the Oxford one. Hopefully another 1.5M of these as well.

     That would be around 4M by the end of next year – about how many would take a vaccine.
     • Stunned Mullet 2.1.1

       10 November 2020 at 4:28 pm

       All going well, If there is a global rollout of an effective vaccine by the middle of next year it will have been a remarkable achievement by the scientific and engineering community involved in its research and development and product.
     • Tricledrown 2.1.2

       10 November 2020 at 5:22 pm

       Australia is already manufacturing 30 million doses in the hope the trials are safe.So they can be ready to go immediately the OK is given.
   • RedBaronCV 2.2

     10 November 2020 at 1:14 pm

     At some level I must confess a small enjoyment about having the country to ourselves seeing home grown talent etc. ( but not at the price of a pandemic of course) .

     But I'm not sure that I want to see everything just returning to the "old normal" without whittling out industries and settings that do not work for all of us.
     • Stunned Mullet 2.2.1

       10 November 2020 at 4:26 pm

       But I'm not sure that I want to see everything just returning to the "old normal" without whittling out industries and settings that do not work for all of us.

       Agreed – it would be nice for a bit of a reset in certain areas, hopefully there'll be further gains regarding flexibility with how and where people work and lessons learned about our country's vulnerabilities to circumstances out of our control.

       I suspect I may be disappointed and we'll see the return of the previous normal.
       • Stuart Munro 2.2.1.1

         10 November 2020 at 4:47 pm

         flexibility with how and where people work

         You know, the labour 'market' is entirely too free already. Free to break our immigration laws in a systematic fashion. Free to enjoy the blind eye of corrupt officials and ministers unfit to exercise their warrants.

         If government want NZ to work, they have to work themselves. We have those immigration rules for a very sound and well-established reason, and if, as seems to be the case, the government is so out of touch they don't understand that, all they need to do is see that the law is obeyed. Their job, in case any of them wants to pretend otherwise.

         Do your job Mr Faafoi, or resign in favour of someone who will.
       • Tricledrown 2.2.1.2

         10 November 2020 at 5:34 pm

         It's going to take at least 3 to 5yrs before Airlines get reestablished let alone the tourists trust in travel ,have enough money to travel.Airlines won't be doing discounting until the volume builds up.
   • Mika 2.3

     10 November 2020 at 3:40 pm

     Word is circulating that we are expecting to have vaccinations rolling out by mid 2021. (Not sure which particular vaccine it will be.)
     • Treetop 2.3.1

       10 November 2020 at 6:56 pm

       Not sure if there will be a mutation which could be ineffective with the new vaccine.

       Would a different vaccine be required for each mutation or strain?
       • Tricledrown 2.3.1.1

         10 November 2020 at 11:20 pm

         Treetop Very likely like the current flu vaccine
3. swordfish 3

   10 November 2020 at 8:02 am

   .

   Oh no ! … actor Gabriel Byrne a "convergence moonbat" too ?

   http://web.archive.org/web/20201108220809/https://amp.theguardian.com/film/2020/nov/08/gabriel-byrne-its-an-obscenity-to-tell-innocent-children-theyre-going-to-hell

   Forget the pollsters. If you wanted to know the outcome of last week’s US election, you just had to ask Gabriel Byrne. I did, a month ago. I wish I had gone to the bookies.

   Byrne was in London on the way back to his farm in Maine, where he lives with his wife and three-year-old daughter. It’ll be thin, he said, Biden’s margin is miles slimmer than anyone predicts. He called it in 2016, too.

   “If you were in touch with the rage that was on the ground, you were not looking at Hillary Clinton and saying, she’s going to get elected. That rage is still on the ground. The 40 million who support Trump haven’t wavered one iota.”

   When he emails on Thursday night, he blames the Democrats for the tight result. “This is the second time they’ve come up against a Gameshow Host and they’ve learned nothing. Again they seriously underestimated the level of anger among mostly blue-collar workers.”

   I don’t need to ask if he feels any optimism; he has already been pretty clear. “At least it’s the end of that guy but, personally, I can’t stand Biden. An exceptionalist roaring about America as the moral leader of the world, all this crap. You can’t appeal to people in Maine or Wisconsin or Michigan by saying this is a battle for the soul of America. It’s just political garbage.

   “Nothing much will change under Biden because his thing is: let’s return America to what it was. Well, what America was caused Trump. The Democrats rolled out the red carpet (for him).”

   Principled, independent thought … concern not so much for the bloated self-absorption of Upper-Middle Clintonistas & Intersectionals … more for the interests of Blue Collar America (even those really yukky ones who have white skin & are male … Ewwww Yuck !!!) … well, it's Crazyville, isn't it ? You mark my words, those God-forsaken Ruskies are behind this !!! … Damn you, Putin, damn you to hell !!!
   • RedLogix 3.1

     10 November 2020 at 8:11 am

     more for the interests of Blue Collar America (even those really yukky ones who have white skin & are male

     And the black Americans who live in crime ridden cities who know that BLM's calls to abolish the police are nothing but disaster for them. Or the Latinos who migrated to the USA knowing that far from a racist hell hole, that it was their best opportunity to make a better life for themselves, look at arsonists burning down businesses … and their empathy lies firmly with owners of them.
   • Ad 3.2

     10 November 2020 at 10:49 am

     Denial and blame and loathing and all the stages of grief just get rolled up into one tired F-grade actor's armwaving.

     Before his next Oscar nomination he needs a good sized paper bag for an inhale session.
     • SPC 3.2.1

       10 November 2020 at 12:02 pm

       The old, anyone to the left of control has to be part of chaos, trick.
     • Brigid 3.2.2

       10 November 2020 at 12:08 pm

       You don't agree with this then?

       “Nothing much will change under Biden because his thing is: let’s return America to what it was. Well, what America was caused Trump. The Democrats rolled out the red carpet (for him).”

       my bold
       • Ad 3.2.2.1

         10 November 2020 at 4:18 pm

         No.

         That quote is as stupid as it sounds.

         Call me when AOC achieves something in politics other getting re-elected.
         • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.2.2.1.1

           10 November 2020 at 5:37 pm

           AOC already has achieved something huge.

           She has shown that an ordinary person can achieve political success in the USA while at the same time eschewing donations from the wealthy and corporates.
           • Ad 3.2.2.1.1.1

             10 November 2020 at 8:38 pm

             Nothing new in that. Not even particularly remarkable.
     • Phillip ure 3.2.3

       10 November 2020 at 12:35 pm

       @ad…so what did that 'actor' say that is factually incorrect…?…b.t.w…did you call 2016 for clinton .?..you are a man riddled with yr certainties ..so I doubt you sat on the fence…
   • McFlock 3.3

     10 November 2020 at 1:42 pm

     Well, it's his perspective, but there's nothing particularly crazy in what he says. There's the usual conceit that he knows "blue collar workers" better than other wealthy people do, but there doesn't seem to be much of the thinly-veiled references to "soros" and all that veiled-nazi jazz.
   • Nic the NZer 3.4

     10 November 2020 at 1:52 pm

     Didn't you hear the election is over and Trump lost, republicans lost, moonbats lost and wingnuts lost. You don't go messing around with the opinion filters on the back of that sort of outcome!
     • Draco T Bastard 3.4.1

       10 November 2020 at 3:47 pm

       So, what you're saying is that everyone lost and there's still a bunch of elected dictators in power?
       • Nic the NZer 3.4.1.1

         10 November 2020 at 3:57 pm

         I'm saying you know the guy won you know the thing and so you know the bank is now in charge.
   • sumsuch 3.5

     10 November 2020 at 10:47 pm

     Agree with Gabriel.
4. Peter 4

   10 November 2020 at 8:09 am

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0YTM8iO4_s&t=6s
   • Treetop 4.1

     10 November 2020 at 1:00 pm

     Too simple for Trump to say, I concede pending on the recount.
5. PsyclingLeft.Always 5

   10 November 2020 at 8:24 am

   An attempt to unseat the chairman of the West Coast Conservation Board has fallen flat.

   "Keith Morfett was recently reappointed to the board for a second term by then-Conservation Minister Eugenie Sage.

   But Ngai Tahu is challenging the minister's appointment process in the High Court after accusing the conservation board of ignoring its Treaty obligations and being in thrall to environmental groups such as Forest and Bird."

   https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/west-coast/morfett-reappointed-conservation-board

   "in thrall to environmental groups such as Forest and Bird." ? ! Well that might not be what Ngai Tahu's in thrall of….maybe Money?
   • greywarshark 5.1

     10 November 2020 at 10:47 am

     It's inevitable that conflicts will arise between government environmental ideas and Maori. Please just stick to facts and avoid taking sides against Maori, 'pour encourager les autres'.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 5.1.1

       10 November 2020 at 4:37 pm

       Ah…..any reading of my Posts/Comments on here would see that I dont "take sides against Maori"…….

       However I dont see Ngai Tahu as particularly "Enviro" or…Green. Quite the Business First Org.

       And this was Forest and Bird they were chipping at….

       My View…and I will stand by it.!
6. Peter 6

   10 November 2020 at 8:43 am

   As American as apple pie. Just add cream.

   https://i.imgflip.com/4lpyqg.jpg
7. Red Blooded One 7

   10 November 2020 at 8:45 am

   Matt King (ex MP for Northland) was given the opportunity for a pity-party on TVNZ1 Breakfast show this morning. No questions about his Twitter attacks with misinformation on climate change, no questions about name calling the PM and about the Labour Party creating a Nazi society, no questions about his actively flouting and encouraging others to flout Covid Rules but they did politely sympathize with his loss and branding him a nice guy. Not so convinced were the viewers apparently, feedback suggesting he should take a little responsibility instead of his sense of entitlement and blaming everyone but himself and his Party. Happy Days
   • Peter 7.1

     10 November 2020 at 9:15 am

     Happy days indeed. Locals had road checks earlier in the year worried that covid-19 would come into the region. A bit of a fuss ensued but most locals were not phased about the politics. Being alive and well and having someone seeking to protect them was welcomed.

     Of course there was a constituency to appeal to, to rouse and harness in election year. It is the Far North. We have red necks. King got in the car with family just to 'go for a drive to show then around'. Into the road checks no less. Fancy that, an opportunity, a cunning stunt.

     A lot of them voted for him of course, most didn't.

     A focus about the tide turning in mainly rural South Island has meant scant attention to the reality at the other end of the country.

     In the two northernmost general electorates so solidly National for generations, that party was comprehensively thrashed. King should have stayed home, saved his petrol.
     • Tiger Mountain 7.1.1

       10 November 2020 at 1:56 pm

       Matt was invited by Hone Harawira, to attend a Te Tai Tokerau Border Patrol for a day near Kaikohe, with Police presence! and he never turned up. He had been trying to rile his pākehā supporters about “the mareeees and their illegal road blocks”, but actually a number of non Māori in the North supported the Iwi Border Patrols.

       Mr King tried to be the Trump of the North on Facebook, but regularly got fact checked and shamed, he never turned up to any invitations to debate any of the bs he put out there. A mate of mine saw him at the Dargaville A&P two years back, and King stuck his hand out, “not shaking your hand you effing fascist” was the response, King was shocked. Dunno where my mate got that classic line from but it sat the ex MP down for a minute.
       • Wensleydale 7.1.1.1

         10 November 2020 at 2:47 pm

         Sounds a bit 'Rick' from The Young Ones.
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 7.2

     10 November 2020 at 9:27 am

     And Awesome Willow-Jean win ! : )
   • tc 7.3

     10 November 2020 at 2:23 pm

     King probably attended on the basis that it would be a pity-party.

     TVNZ/RNZ may as well be corporate media as King's fair game and it would've been great TV watching him dance on the head of a pin if some actual journalism was practiced.
8. Tricledrown 8

   10 November 2020 at 8:48 am

   Hosking fearmongering undone by Robertson.

   Hosking had a rant about the govts debt around covid response saying 42 organizations wanting up to $150 a week increases on benefits was causing eye watering increases in debt,and that NZ was the only country in the OECD that had increased the benefit rates by a lousy $25 other than Hong Kong .

   Then Robertson comes on his show and quietly undoes all his BS.GrantRobertson also gives Hosking an update on how the economy has bounced back a lot quicker than expected.

   Good on Robertson for his stellar work on the economy and his cool calm collected communication style .

   [Second time: please stick to one e-mail address, thanks]
   • Incognito 8.1

     10 November 2020 at 8:53 am

     [Second time: please stick to one e-mail address, thanks]
9. greywarshark 9

   10 November 2020 at 10:42 am

   edit
   Are we concreted in on some Covid-19 decisions that should be constantly revised?

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/430230/man-in-miq-blown-away-seeing-staff-only-wearing-surgical-masks

   Health workers in New Zealand quarantine hotels are some of the worst protected in the developed world, according to a man in managed isolation who's helped kit out medical staff all over the world.

   And we care don’t we for St Johns. Management may be being too neo lib perhaps pay high at top but workers?
   https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018772011/paramedics-vote-for-strike-action-we-feel-st-john-don-t-really-care
   • SPC 9.1

     10 November 2020 at 11:15 am

     The organisation has financial difificulties partly from the pandemic impacting fund-raising. Peters was right to call for better government contribution.
     • Draco T Bastard 9.1.1

       10 November 2020 at 4:00 pm

       St John's shouldn't even be a private organisation.
10. Ad 10

    10 November 2020 at 10:44 am

    What to do when your caucus is now only 33?

    Bridges for Finance?

    Reti for Deputy?

    What to do with Nick Smith?

    How to bury Paul Goldsmith?

    Erica Stanford anyone?

    What stars will rise in the firmament in 2021 from the political ash-heap of 2020?

    Anyone feeling it?

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/national-mps-meet-to-decide-their-next-deputy-leader-after-their-devastating-election-loss/SUBI3OEOSHWRCNV4QJMWGBSD2M/
    • Andre 10.1

      10 November 2020 at 10:53 am

      Erica Stanford would be the obvious candidate to take over the Blue-Green mantle from Nick Smith. Such as it is, anyways.
      • Tricledrown 10.1.1

        10 November 2020 at 11:09 am

        The slippery old eel Nick Smith will he slither away or hang around time for this environmental disaster to go.
        • Wensleydale 10.1.1.1

          10 November 2020 at 2:49 pm

          I'd quite like for him to asphyxiate quietly in one of our many polluted waterways.
    • Treetop 10.2

      10 November 2020 at 1:06 pm

      Do you think that National will be more united with 33 caucus members?
    • Chris 10.3

      10 November 2020 at 1:16 pm

      Looks like Collins has already traded places with her deputy within minutes of his appointment. Void of original thought, of course, but ironically, may well be a good move.

      “Dr Reti’s knowledge and history working in the health sector will be an asset as Parliament deals with the impact of Covid-19. His experience will be invaluable to me as deputy leader and I’m looking forward to working closer with him.”

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/123350020/shane-reti-elected-unopposed-as-new-deputy-leader-of-the-national-party
      • Patricia Bremner 10.3.1

        10 November 2020 at 2:33 pm

        Lol good one Chris.
    • alwyn 10.4

      10 November 2020 at 1:52 pm

      You never know what might happen.

      After all, following the 2014 election National had 60 seats and Labour had 32.

      Labour recovered enough to form the Government after the following election.

      Now Labour have 65 and National have 33 which is pretty much the same thing. Who knows but history may repeat and we will have a change of Government in 2023. After all we aren't likely to have another pandemic are we?
      • Macro 10.4.1

        10 November 2020 at 3:51 pm

        After all we aren't likely to have another pandemic are we?

        Well not until the next one.

        We have created "a perfect storm" for diseases from wildlife to spill over into humans and spread quickly around the world, scientists warn.

        Human encroachment on the natural world speeds up that process.

        In the last 20 years, we've had six significant threats – SARS, MERS, Ebola, avian influenza and swine flu," Prof Matthew Baylis from the University of Liverpool told BBC News. "We dodged five bullets but the sixth got us.

        "And this is not the last pandemic we are going to face, so we need to be looking more closely at wildlife disease."

        As part of this close examination, he and his colleagues have designed a predictive pattern-recognition system that can probe a vast database of every known wildlife disease.

        Across the thousands of bacteria, parasites and viruses known to science, this system identifies clues buried in the number and type of species they infect. It uses those clues to highlight which ones pose most of a threat to humans.
        • bwaghorn 10.4.1.1

          10 November 2020 at 5:39 pm

          Do you think world leaders have worked out that the next time a pandemic erupts that shutting the planet down (human activity) for 6 weeks is the cheapest option.
          • Andre 10.4.1.1.1

            10 November 2020 at 6:08 pm

            The appropriate response will depend on how it spreads, infectiousness profile over time, and no doubt a bunch of other factors an infectious disease specialist could bore us all to tears with.

            For instance, if the next one is some sort of turbo-hepatitis where the spread is mostly through food and transferring infectious material on surfaces, and people can be infectious for decades, then the appropriate response will be quite different to a shutdown.
        • alwyn 10.4.1.2

          10 November 2020 at 5:52 pm

          Unfortunately I am forced to agree with you.

          Can I change the last sentence to "After all, perhaps we will be lucky enough not to have another pandemic so quickly"?
      • Tricledrown 10.4.2

        10 November 2020 at 6:01 pm

        Alwyn your lame claim doesn't add up how come National only had a 2 seat majority relying on the relying on the Maori Party.

        Labour Greens Maori Party have a 30 seat majority given the Maori Party will not go with National again.

        Alwynger your living in the past first past the post.
11. Adrian 11

    10 November 2020 at 11:40 am

    We are lucky here in Godzone on how we do politics. On Stuff this morning there is video of Smith conceding Nelson to Rachel Boyack and while I am not in any way a fan of his he has to be commended for the gracious manner in which he did it and the exceptional way that the Nelson Labour crew treated him. Well done everybody. It is well worth a look just to reinforce how thankful we should be about how civilised we are here.
    • woodart 11.1

      10 November 2020 at 11:55 am

      yes, even with polies you despise , you know they still have NZ best interest at heart . looking at many of the overseas polies? maybe not.
12. RedBaronCV 12

    10 November 2020 at 12:46 pm

    Well we probably should give these visa holders their money back. But 23,000 visa's which is probably not the lot, is an awful lot of competition for our young NEETS in the job market – for the 50,000 or so who enter it every year. Any chance of Labour rejiging this? Unlikely.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/123334850/working-holiday-visa-holders-stuck-offshore-beg-for-extensions-to-entry-date
    • Craig H 12.1

      10 November 2020 at 6:07 pm

      Working Holidays are an outcome of reciprocal agreements with other countries, so we could scrap them, but that would probably result the end of the equivalent schemes, so instead of competing with foreign workers, they would compete with young NZ workers who didn't go on their OEs.
      • RedBaronCV 12.1.1

        10 November 2020 at 6:40 pm

        Yeh Nah I haven't looked up any actual figures – don't even know if they exist in total but our birth cohorts are in the 50-60k a year zone hence around that number onto the labour market a year.

        Now if we do straight number swaps eg we issue 10 to the UK and they issue 10 to NZ it is going to have a far greater impact on our labour market as we have a much smaller population. Some of the countries mentioned in the article are aslo unlikely I suspect to provide much in the way of kiwi jobs – some of the south americain countries. But 23K is a lot and that won't be all. I really can't see that number of Kiwis leaving . and the ones that stay have to compete with student visas and other low waged immigration as well.
13. Red Blooded One 13

    10 November 2020 at 1:10 pm

    

    Well Dr Reti, I hope you've packed your magic undies, 'cause you've sure got a shitty new job.
    • Chris 13.1

      10 November 2020 at 1:17 pm

      Especially when his leader says she's looking forward to working "closer" with him.
      • woodart 13.1.1

        10 November 2020 at 2:36 pm

        further nats news, maureen pugh has gone from phucking useless ,to a promotion up the list, to whip. she is getting her numbers ready for a rural takeback of the nats! with dr shane as her deputy, that would cover most of the nats trad voters, just need to keep bridges around to appeal to the whiney suitwearers.
    • observer 13.2

      10 November 2020 at 3:19 pm

      It's less a job, more a summer internship, duties amount to nodding on camera beside a leader who will be gone soon. Still, it puts him on the (very) short list for next leader, and they could do a lot worse – and probably will.

      National deputy leaders of 2020, a brief history: Bennett – quit Parliament. Kaye – quit Parliament. Brownlee – lost seat. Reti – lost seat.

      I don't think any party anywhere can boast such a record.
14. joe90 14

    10 November 2020 at 2:54 pm

    heh

    https://twitter.com/IlhanMN/status/1325937738311413760
    • Peter 14.1

      10 November 2020 at 4:39 pm

      It's Farrar's 'dream' team. History shows that what goes on in that head's reverie is likely to be some sort of hallucinogenic weirdness.
15. R.P Mcmurphy 15

    10 November 2020 at 6:16 pm

    Deeply disappointed in the cannabis referendum. The combination of punitive, vindictive sanctimonious, self righteous, fake christians and false moralists with the justice industry [cops lawyers judges corrections and would be counsellors looking for a gig] was too much for the referendumb to bear. plus the spiteful bastards against everything. The way Andrew Little brushed it off and then dodged a bullet by jettisoning justice was shameful.As a committed advocate for the working man I am never going to vote for the running dogs of capitalism but the "vote" will go to the greens next time
    • Pat 15.1

      10 November 2020 at 6:38 pm

      and if they decriminalise?
      • R.P Mcmurphy 15.1.1

        10 November 2020 at 7:08 pm

        life will go on as normal. if Portugal is any example usage will decrease and the kidz who get upin front of the beak and say"it woz the drugz wot made me do it" will have to be responsible for their actions.
        • Pat 15.1.1.1

          10 November 2020 at 7:11 pm

          it was more how you would respond if they decriminalised…would you then vote for them?
      • Phillip ure 15.1.2

        10 November 2020 at 7:43 pm

        Cannabis is not the only problem with this government….and all the problems..inaction on poverty/environment/animal welfare etc etc..on and on it goes..can all be tracked back to the fact that labour is yet to realise it is clutching to a failed/bankrupt ideology…neoliberalism…as you look around the world its' failures are legion..increasing inequality..fucking up the environment…and doing basically nothing to fix the problems we have…and labour has long wed incrementalism to to that bankrupt neoliberalism…this is what has been the ideology of both our main parties since after the second lange govt and Ruth richardson's magic poverty wand was waved…helen clark/are/were neoliberal incrementalists to the core…(and they are now advising ardern..a fact that chills the blood)..and ardern/robertson learnt at the knees of clark/cullen…and what clark thought of from day one of each term and what drove her actions/inaction was the next election ..doing what she had to do to win that next election..(hence large wedges of middle-class welfare..and the poor can just rot..)…ardern/robertson are following in those shoes ..and the country cannot expect any meaningful change any time soon…(and when did it become the norm that for any pissant/small change that is made…we are made to wait eons for it to actually be enacted..?..when the f. did that delayed-gratification become the norm..?..)…as long as ardern/ labour fly that neoliberal flag..nothing much will change…but the warning for ardern is that what clark did so successfully will not work again…and she should know that when she/labour fail to deliver..that there is now another party the disappointed/disgruntled can turn to at the next election…who they know will do all the shit that needs doing…the greens…so if she doesn't deliver at the next election those tories disgusted with the current iteration/doings of the national party..will likely return home..and the left will turn en masse to the greens….and the centre will not be the certainty she now thinks it is…
        • Pat 15.1.2.1

          10 November 2020 at 7:58 pm

          ok….but it was a specific question in relation to R P McMurphy's post "Deeply disappointed in the cannabis referendum…."

          Im quite sure that there will be many rationales for people not to vote Labour should they so choose
16. sumsuch 16

    10 November 2020 at 10:06 pm

    I've just been saying on The Daily Blog in response to Martyn's criticism of Jacinda's neglect of the beneficiaries while spouting away about them in her slogans, if she thinks she can get away with that via her professional careerist apparatchiks and public popularity her neglect of the thinking Left will involve a serious cost.

    The Maori Labour MPs, to be taken at all seriously, should have demanded the Welfare Experts Group Report to be adopted immediately. Duds.
17. sumsuch 17

    10 November 2020 at 10:14 pm

    Reading the comments above we all seem to be seething about the neglect of beneficiaries.
18. sumsuch 18

    10 November 2020 at 10:23 pm

    The marijuana push-back suggests there's work to do and Labour's focus groups might have something to them. When America has gone full-on grass liberalisation it suggests timidity is the essential part of the Party. Why I voted Little for leader and have never voted for Labour.
    • sumsuch 18.1

      10 November 2020 at 10:38 pm

      The timidity was at the birth, though Trotter calls it realism, when the 1935 govt wouldn't put my g.great grandfather in the Legislative Council because of his outright socialism. He got nationalisation of the means of production passed at the British Labour AGM in 1908. If he'd stayed in England he would have been a Lord.

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