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Open mike 10/12/2021

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, December 10th, 2021 - 303 comments
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303 comments on “Open mike 10/12/2021 ”

  1. Gezza 1

    Pukeko unfolds its wings after grooming.

    They have impressive-looking wings and are strong, but rather, shall we say, inelegant fliers.

    • Dennis Frank 1.1

      Perhaps they devolved over the past millennium? Wikipedia says they "invaded from Australia less than 1,000 years ago."

      Or perhaps the invasion force was carefully selected to consist of the most vigorous fliers. Churlish folk may theorise that those were assisted by prevailing winds. I'd advise them to beware inadvertent support of the bird-brain theory. Intelligent design of the invasion force seems just as feasible & descendants make take umbrage…

      • Gezza 1.1.1

        These large rails much prefer to walk & swim rather than fly. Unfortunately this preference gets lots of them killed on the roads.

        I'm struck by how very dinosaur-like they are when they walk or run. They look like mini-raptors, and that frontal shield of theirs somehow just adds to the dinosaur resemblance, for me anyway.

        They give me the impression that they didn't have to evolve very far along the chain from a mini-raptor to get to their current shape, though of course that might not be true in their DNA record.

        • Blazer

          Xmas is coming-what do they taste like?

          • Gezza

            By all accounts they’re pretty tough & stringy. The best recipe is said to be to boil them up with potatoes, kumara, watercress, cabbage & beans, in a pot big enuf to also throw an old gumboot in, for 3 hours. At the end of that time, you throw away the pukeko, and eat the gumboot & the veges. 😐

            • Gezza

              Sorry, I forgot, you need carrots in there too. 😐

            • Macro

              I prefer an old leather boot myself rather than a gumboot – more chewy.

            • Shanreagh

              I thought that recipe was for duck and the best recipes also included some orange juice powder such as the old Raro! I would stick to the boot, pukeko and raro and not put in the 'potatoes, kumara, watercress, cabbage & beans (and carrots)'.

              You could cook them up separately and for the next day breakfast have them fried up, yum. Your dinner mates will still be eating the leather boot so there will be lots for you to eat. wink

          • gsays

            Years ago I was reliably informed Pukeko could be 'jugged' and tasted good. The whaea that told me this was sincere when talking about the old ways.


            The keys are lots of aromatics and stock, an earthenware dish with a tight fitting lid and low and slow cooking.
            If you have a Rommertopf or Schlemmertopf you are away laughing.


        • Macro

          But! But! They are not real! Birds don’t exist and are really drone replicas installed by the U.S. government to spy on Americans. So watch out G make sure they aren't spying on you.

          • Shanreagh

            Like all of the vaccinated I am sure Gezza got a full complement of 5G capability and tracking devices……perhaps these communicate with the drone birds to save the long trip to NZ like the Godwits from Russia have to do……wait wait, hang on a minute am I onto something here?

            Just scooting down to my Mum's basement to investigate this.


    • Gezza 1.2

      @ mary

      Here are my new adopted grand-pooklet quads. They will be only a week old (or less). They'll be showing on this site for 3 months, then drop out.






  2. Rosemary McDonald 2

    Unsurprisingly, Natrad continues to confuse "sex" and "gender" and quite frankly this morning's wee gloat session over the passing of legislation allowing biological reality to be sidelined and to allow those who feel they were "assigned the wrong sex at birth" to rectify this 'error' with a mere declaration made me gag on my morning glass of water.

    Questions. Is "transphobic misogyny" an actual thing? Is it accurate to describe the submissions of gender critical feminists to the select committee as "gaslighting"?

    This is quoting Kerekere, hopefully in the above link.

    I am busy today trying to get an aluminium framed window to better fit into where a wooden framed used to be in a small building that was seemingly denied the benefit of spirit levels or squares during it's construction some years ago. To celebrate the passing of this legislation I'd wear a frock for this job…but being well over forty years since I've worn such a garment… Hmmm…lots to ponder methinks.

    • higherstandard 2.1

      Careful Rosemary I think you need to take advice on what to wear today, the last thing you want is to unknowingly cause a hate crime by wearing/not wearing a pair of trousers.

      • Robert Guyton 2.1.1

        Not wearing a pair of trousers isn't a hate crime but might still get you in trouble with the constabulary.

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.2

        I was thinking along the lines of a culturally appropriate kilt…but it is much too hot. A lavalava is an option…but modesty would demand a degree of tightness that would make ladder climbing difficult.

        It's complicated.

    • Sabine 2.2

      It is early days still, but then maybe in a year or several we have something like this, or not.


      They don't conflate sex with gender, they will continue to pretend that sex don't matter Rosemary. Science got burned on the stake, and Gender is all that they have left now.

    • Rosemary McDonald 2.3

      I've now had coffee and caught again Natrad's continued promotion of this suspension of reality legislation.

      I misquoted Kerekere. She said " trans misogyny" not "transphobic misogyny". A difference, but also probably more demanding of debate.

      I am interpreting "trans misogyny" as basically meaning that if you don't accept that trans women are women you are a woman hater. Hmmm…making my square window fit the unsquare hole is way easier that getting my head around this. Frock or no frock.

      • Anker 2.3.1

        With all due respect Denis, the law you talk of didn't lead to psychopathic murderers not guilty for the crimes they commit.

        A psychopath would never meet the criteria for not guilty by reason of insanity.

        This law dates back to the 18800's and was for people who had such an abnormal state of mind they could not be held responsible for their actions. So what thss means is someone who is experiencing delusins e.g that someone is going to kill me, and whose ability to reality test is very limited or non existence. In other words that person really believes their delusions. so usually someone with a spychotic depression or schizophrenia although most people with schizophrenia are not dangerous).

        Usually both the defence and the prosecution are able to agree that this person needs to be found not guilty on the basis of insanity. I think the young man in Epsom who killed his parents was found NGBROI. These cases are very very sad

        • Dennis Frank

          Oh, I see. I didn't realise psychopaths are relatively normal compared to psychotic & schizo folk.

          Psychopathy, sometimes considered synonymous with sociopathy, is characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits.


          Trumpian, in contemporary lingo.

          • Anker

            Denis no problem. People make that mistake all the time. Psychopaths can be very dangerous (or maybe just very good used car salesmen or even politicians) but they are in touch with reality.

            The law that treats people who are psychotic at the time of their crimes is a far one. Thee people receive a sentence in a high security forensic hospitl and once their illness is treated have to come to terms with what they have done when unwell.

            The vast majority of people with schizophrenia are quite safe. It is a tragic illness. I think they are one of the most marginalized groups in society. Not many people go into to bat for them

      • Anker 2.3.2

        The suspension of reality legislation……..lol lol.

        Yes funny to talk about gaslighting, which I understand means trying to get someone to doubt their reality (that was in the original movie anyway). Elizabeth who brought in a bill like this. It reminds me of the headline of an item from the UK "Woman charged with indecent exposure for masturbating with her penis out". if that ain't gaslighting I am not sure what is. …………….

        Signed: Boy who watched the parade in the Emperors New Clothes.

        ,ps it was wonderful reading the discussion on Open Mike last night. Weka, Molly, Sabine, Pukish Rogue, Rosemary, Red Logix, Roblogic…….proud of you all. And Sabine your hilarious comment about pro-nnouns and not assuming who was a women in parliament brought. me great joy

        • Sabine

          I am very serious though. Everyone here should from now on understand that they /them is the way to go.

          If they have not declared their identity, they don't have one. And that includes our dear non male leader of the labour party, the non male co-leader and the non – female co- leader of the green party, ditto for maori party, act party and national party.

          And just for the record that someone might think that i am trying myself at joking, I am not.

          Do not assume gender of anyone unless they have stated theirs and that comes with pronouns.

          • Puckish Rogue

            I only have one pronoun, it is 'My Lord and Master'

            That's how I want everyone to address me

          • Blazer

            You sound like you are serious.

            Have you/are you declaring yours and what is the setting for declarations?

            • Puckish Rogue

              Just on social media for now, its all you need to do in this day and age

              • In Vino

                Sorry, Pucky, but pronouns are words that stand in place of a noun.

                Lord and Master are both nouns, not pronouns. Permission declined.

                • Molly

                  In Vino,

                  The word pronoun no longer means what you think. (Par for the course).

                  PR doesn't have to use the dinosaur meaning of the word pronoun to create his own in the interest of "greater equality."

                  University of Wisconsin explains:

                  "A gender neutral or gender inclusive pronoun is a pronoun which does not associate a gender with the individual who is being discussed.

                  Some languages, such as English, do not have a gender neutral or third gender pronoun available, and this has been criticized, since in many instances, writers, speakers, etc. use “he/his” when referring to a generic individual in the third person. Also, the dichotomy of “he and she” in English does not leave room for other gender identities, which is a source of frustration to the transgender and gender queer communities.

                  People who are limited by languages which do not include gender neutral pronouns have attempted to create them, in the interest of greater equality." –

            • Sabine

              i am not, use they them and get over it.

      • Anker 2.3.3

        I wouldn't give Dr Kerekeres take on things too much time at all.

        She seems particularly confused in her PHd thesis where she makes a case for the acceptance of trans people pre-colonial times, but then on page 82 admits there is no evidence for this.

        • swordfish


          The absurdly revisionist historiography of Māori pseudo-academics like Dr Elizabeth Anne Kerekere is, of course, implicitly taken as holy gospel by the highly paternalistic Pakeha Woke Establishment … a kind of unthinking Noble Savage Romanticisation & Infantalisation of Māori … but these dubious post-modern-influenced narratives don't even remotely cut it among qualified historians … they are purely Presentist … radically re-writing & sanitising Māori history for present-day political purposes.

          From attempts to deny the brutal genocide & mass slavery of the Musket Wars to the transformation of pre-Colonial Māori into something resembling a mix of 1960s Flower-Power Hippies & the supposedly ‘unusually-refined sensbilities‘ (LOL) of 21st Century Upper-Middle Pakeha Wokedom.

          • SPC


            Elizabeth Rata is of course the expert on Maori education.


            • swordfish


              Sorry, who mentioned Elizabeth Rata & who mentioned Māori Education ?

              Perhaps you were replying to someone else ?

              As someone who took History through to Post-Grad level – including papers on Historical Methodology & the various Schools of History & a good deal of NZ History – I’m suggesting that activist-Māori pseudo-academics are producing highly dubious, inherently Present-Minded revisionism to buttress contemporary radical Māori political claims.

            • JanM

              Elizabeth Rata is a pakeha

              • SPC


                I know.

                I was responding to swordfish’s educational background and comments on Maori academia and paternalist woke Pakeha (claims the Labour government is abandoning the white working class).

                He has linked to Elizabeth Rata … .

                It reminds one of resistance to critical race theory in the USA.


          • Anker

            Swordfish I respect and accept your assessemnt of this

        • SPC

          Probably a presumption from Samoan culture (which may have developed post any cultural connection).

      • Visubversa 2.3.4

        Well, the head of Stonewall says that lesbians who are not interested in having sex with male bodied people who demand that we refer to them as women are "sexual racists". That is why gender identity is a homophobic cult.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          "sexual racists"

          Goddess forgive me, but I fell down this bunny hole this morning…earlyish.

          …that a trans woman with male genitals is merely a woman with an “unusually shaped vulva,” so no one unprejudiced would make a distinction; and that a woman who is willing to touch a natal woman’s vulva but not a trans woman’s genitals is like a woman who is willing to touch a white woman’s vulva but not a black woman’s.

          But what stands out most is the faith they display in the power of words to override material reality. When a woman is anyone who declares womanhood, the matter of whether that person has genitals that can get an erection, penetrate, impregnate and rape becomes unspeakable. But the genitals themselves do not change.

          I had read this before, when it was first published and we were in the early stages on choosing which path we would take on this issue. I had hoped that having the benefit of others' experience of how such legislation could play out in the real world (albeit this particular case is extreme) we would exercise a little caution and include some significant safeguards against such a travesty ever happening here.

          • weka

            I just need to rewrite this for a minute, for the sake of the left wing heterosexual men standing against gender critical feminism who now need to understand that unless they are willing to personally engage with girldick they're transphobic, sexual racist bigots. Wouldn't want them to be surprised by this.

            …that a trans woman with male genitals is merely a woman with an “unusually shaped vulva,” so no one unprejudiced would make a distinction; and that a man who is willing to touch a natal woman’s vulva but not a trans woman’s genitals is like a man who is willing to touch a white woman’s vulva but not a black woman’s.

            The other option for het men of course is to make the argument for why lesbians should have to engage with girldick but het men shouldn't. Can't wait.

            (the Quillette piece is talking about the Yaniv case and beauticians, but we know from lesbians that it applies to sexual relationships as well).

            • Anker

              Yes Weka, This might be when we get some cut through, when Het men are accused of be transphobic or trans racist or whatever if they refuse to accept that the women is with a dick isn't a women and they don't want sex with them.

              I will wait with bated breath to hear how heterosexual men defend their trans racism.

            • Molly

              Misogyny, harassment and extortion in one 'unholy package', still attached to the groin of Yaniv.

              Some of those women closed their single income source due to this.

          • Molly

            Your link contains this pearler re Jonathan Yaniv:

            Cameron presented evidence to the tribunal that included social-media posts in which Yaniv talked about using women’s public facilities, such as toilets and a gym, and asked for advice on matters of etiquette—such as when it might be appropriate to approach a pre-teen girl to ask for a tampon, or whether it might be okay to accompany such a girl into a stall to show her how to use it. (Yaniv claims that such messages came from hacked accounts, but has provided no proof in this regard.)

            • Molly

              And for a look at those 'not gonna happen' misuse of self-id by non-dysphoric bad actors, a blank video.

              For the rest of us, a sample of what has happened in the ladies.

        • Anker

          "Sexual racists". Do these people ever listen to themselves

      • Gypsy 2.3.5

        The worlds going nuts, Rosemary.

    • Molly 2.4

      I've come to the conclusion that the conflation of 'sex', 'gender' and 'gender identity' is the natural result of someone bullshitting their way through something they don't understand. What they do know is some of the terms, so they throw them into a word soup and hope they are not challenged. Those listening think, hang on, I don't understand, I must be missing something here, but remain quiet because they, too, don't want to seem ignorant.

      Kerekere's behaviour during the submission process was appalling. Apparently a group performance because many of the other MPs joined in.

      Accusing submitters of 'gaslighting' is the tried and true method of deflecting onto others that which you are doing yourself.

      Good luck with the window, Rosemary. I have four old bungalow windows that need to be stripped back and painted before installing them as part of our years long renovation project. I too, will try and find a suitably appropriate 'costume' to acknowledge the significance of the bill.

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.4.1

        Kerekere's behaviour during the submission process was appalling. Apparently a group performance because many of the other MPs joined in.

        Russell didn't exactly participate in good faith either. Shameful. And as you rightfully point out, the whole pantomime was a textbook display of deflection.

        Their granddaughters will not thank them.

        Windows…I have three kinds of filler. Skim coat gibstopping compound, quick dry permafill type for the screw and nail holes and the deeper cracks, and a brand new tube of the renovator's best friend…No More Gaps. Despite this I still needed to fashion a long slice of plywood to glue into a seriously wide space. A few coats of paint…laugh

      • Tricledrown 2.4.2

        A onesie even has a hood to keep the dust off your head.

    • SPC 2.5

      The pertinent quotes

      Grigg – National – “it's just modernising a process that already exists” (an interesting description of moving from a medical status related to anatomy to self-declared gender identity).

      And the (it sounds like a nice place) other MP did say gaslighting transphobia and transphobic misogyny. By those she accused of "not submitting accurate information or demonstrating a genuine care for all New Zealanders" – which is the level of gaslighting one can expect from a politician in place of privilege from which to exercise power to suppress dissent (once the hate speech law is about …).

      We have been warned – that women can be guilty of misogyny via transphobia, and such is their gaslighting of transphobia.

      It is a difficult issue, but expecting everyone to fall into line with an approach taken by government always leads to an abuse of power at some point.

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.5.1

        Grigg – National – “it's just modernising a process that already exists” (an interesting description of moving from a medical status related to anatomy to self-declared gender identity).

        Words again. We can make them mean whatever we want. The process prior actually involved demonstrating commitment to the change.

        Anyone want to lay bets on when the first GCF will see herself up on Charges in NZ?

      • weka 2.5.2

        It is a difficult issue, but expecting everyone to fall into line with an approach taken by government always leads to an abuse of power at some point.

        Yep. And if you don't bring people with you they will hate you in the back lash given sufficient cause.

  3. Adrian 3

    I have a feeling that the long pressured for opening up of the Auckland tourist market is not going to be the cash cow those in the industry, particularly down south, were hoping for. The cancelation list for some of the walks that turn up in our mailbox is quite extensive, not to mention expensive. People are going to be hesitant like when we first opened up to Australia, it then seemed to be mainly Kiwis coming back to see rellies and I think the same will happen with Aucklanders.

    • McFlock 3.1

      Not just Aucklanders.

      I have some Dunedin folk going to visit loved ones in Otago over xmas, and they're actually planning their shopping for groceries and petrol around spots less likely to have Auckland tourists.

      • weka 3.1.1

        I'm starting to think those of us in higher vax rate areas should be welcoming Aucklanders so they don't end up going to Northland or the East Coast where vax rates are low.

        But it's a hard ask, given we have almost no community transmission in the South Island. There will be other Christmases.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          I'm starting to think those of us in higher vax rate areas should be welcoming Aucklanders so they don't end up going to Northland or the East Coast where vax rates are low.

          That's very considerate of you weka, but I suspect some local businesses might be kinda banking on an influx of vaccinated.

          A good friend took his fully vaccinated self down to Kaitaia the other day so he could use the Pass he got double jabbed for…being a sociable kind of chap. Lonely he was, as all the usual watering holes were practically bereft of patrons.

          Just as well he partied hard last Thursday night… along with half the FFN.

          Tbh…I thought there would have been more of the local imbibers fully vaccinated.

          • weka

            it's certainly going to be interesting to see how the summer plays out on a number of fronts.

  4. Dennis Frank 4

    Louise Upston has won a significant victory for victims' rights:

    Parliament on Wednesday passed the Rights for Victims of Insane Offenders Bill, first introduced into the House by National MP Louise Upston in 2019, which was aimed at providing victims of offenders deemed insane more rights. The bill, which will now become law, changes the court verdict that insane offenders face from “not guilty on account of his or her insanity” to “act proven but not criminally responsible on account of insanity”.

    It will also require the victim of the act be notified when a decision has been made to no longer detain the offender, or when the offender has been given unescorted leave from a care facility, and allows the victim to submit on any review of the offender’s detention.


    The law has been an ass in deeming psychopathic murderers not guilty of the murders they commit. Everyone knows a murderer actually did it, when the facts prove it. For the law to persist in denial of the facts for decades shows how irrational law is.

    And the "National Party bill was passed into law with the help of the Labour Government." Labour deserves our appreciation for their bipartisan consensus decision-making. This collaboration restores faith in our democratic process.

  5. Dennis Frank 5

    I hadn't realised the current lack of unicorns was due to a previous episode of climate-change denial… sad

    • Robert Guyton 5.1

      Noah's saying, "Last chance" but the ramp has already been raised.

      Noah became a drunkard once the rain stopped and the floodwaters receded.

      Probably felt bad about that unicorn thing.

  6. Robert Guyton 6

    Chris Trotter on the racist response to the roadblocks.

    "Why, then, are so many Pakeha so angry? Why, in particular, has the Act Party felt entitled to inflame matters? As someone who was in Parliament when the legislation was being passed, what has prompted the Act Party leader, David Seymour, to declare:

    “Labour has snuck a law through Parliament letting iwi run checkpoints. Our weak PM has surrendered basic rights. The Police Commissioner, rather than upholding the law, has given into demands of iwi. Kiwis have a right to move around the country without being stopped by thugs.”

    Let’s pick apart this extraordinary statement. Because, astonishingly, just about everything Seymour alleges is false."


    • vto 6.1

      This mixes two big issues – outright bald racism, and legislated birthright privilege.

      Sure, Seymour is out of line in his depiction of the issue – way out of line. And that sort of rhetoric is inflammatory and dangerous in the exact same way as Trump's ongoing bullshit is.

      But, we just keep creating a bigger monster by continuing to legislate different rights for different citizens based on their 'race' and birth.

      And that is simply not sustainable in any society. Never has been. Never will be. It is what so many of our ancestors sought to escape in coming here, including the polynesians.

      Yet we keep doing it.

      It is this which the people are up in arms about. This very particular point.


      and a little more… now add to those different classes of citizens a couple more different classes of citizens, the vaccine passed and the un-vaccine passed… oh what a messy web…

      • Gezza 6.1.1

        *…we just keep creating a bigger monster by continuing to legislate different rights for different citizens based on their ‘race’ and birth.

        And that is simply not sustainable in any society. Never has been. Never will be. It is what so many of our ancestors sought to escape in coming here, including the polynesians. Yet we keep doing it.

        It is this which the people are up in arms about. This very particular point.


        The iwi-run checkpoints are one of those Kiwiland issues that I’m conflicted about. Ignoring Seymour’s inflammatory use of the label “thugs” for the moment, I can see how those on both sides of the argument consider their view to be the righteous, and/or the fair one.

        Kiwis are used to travelling the length & breadth of this country on state highways, country roads, & city & town streets, completely unimpeded (save for the odd booze checkpoint or speeding ticket). We’ve done it all our lives.

        Suddenly they are faced with small numbers of local Māori demanding – and given – the right to stop motorists & refuse them entry to locales where there are very likely not just Maori, but Māori AND Pākehā.

        This is unprecedented. You’d have to go back over 100 years, maybe, to find something like this happening. And back then the setller government would likely be sending out armed constabulary and/or troopers to open the roads & punish rebels acting in breach of the (English-based) law of the land.

        To those who believe that Māori knowingly signed up to ALL the people in New Zealand having equal rights & protections under the Crown’s law, this looks like giving one select group, based on their ethnicity, the right to restrict other Kiwis from simoly going where they are otherwise allowed to go & to demand documents & evidence, & potentially to turn them around, which other Kiwis have no right to do.

        And the other viewpoint, equally understandable to me, is that this is a deafly pandemic that is likely to hit Māori harder than Pākehā because Māori vax rates are so much lower, particularly, still, in more isolated communities.

        This group (not ALL Māori I know agree with them) consider that the Treaty grants them special privileges – in the form of continued rangatiratanga in their own nga rohe (which, it does) – and that they therefore have the clear right under Te Tiriti to act to protect their taonga; & their kaumatua, themselves, their tamariki & their rangatahi.

        The government & the Police Commissioner have come down on the side of this 2nd group & given legal rights no other Kiwis have to set up checkpoints.

        I really think more needed to be done by the government to explain this decision to other Kiwis. I don’t think it’s the wrong decision. I think it’s an understandable & justifiable one. Were I Māori, I would likely fully support it.

        But the optics are bad. it looks like it’s been slipped in under the door when no one was looking to those who think we should all be treated equally under NZ law.

        • vto

          Yep, well put gezza.. while I have great sympathy for the relevant iwi, the optics and the reality are terrible.

          This, together with the 3-waters, is a massive vote loser for labour for all of those reasons.

          I fear for the next election

        • RedLogix

          A good analysis gezza and if this was all a temporary measure in response to a crisis – I'd be a lot more sympathetic.

          But increasingly we're seeing 'unthinkable' measures slipped in with no debate to deal with a crisis – then morphing into something permanent.

          This group (not ALL Māori I know agree with them) consider that the Treaty grants them special privileges – in the form of continued rangatiratanga in their own nga rohe (which, it does) – and that they therefore have the clear right under Te Tiriti to act to protect their taonga; & their kaumatua, themselves, their tamariki & their rangatahi.

          Yes. I've seen and heard this in action decades ago, in person. During the 80's I went through a phase of my life that meant I got to visit more marae than I can recall to count. It was a fascinating period during which I learned a great deal, and came away with a deep respect for aspects of what I saw. And some tough lessons learned.

          I also along the way encountered the Maori separatists who argued that the iwi chief remain the only legitimate owners of the whole of NZ. And in quiet moments would openly express the desire for all the old tribal borders to be permanently restored. There is not a lot of daylight between these COVID borders – and the granting of this wish.

          • alwyn

            "the old tribal borders to be permanently restored".

            What was the date to be used when deciding where the old boundaries were to be set? Prior to 1840 of course there were no permanent boundaries. They were wherever you had currently settled because you had defeated, and probably killed, the previous residents. For example would you give the descendants of Te Rauparaha the land he controlled in 1820 or in 1840?

            Whatever you settle on why should those boundaries be "permanent" instead of being subject to further warfare?

            • RedLogix

              Whatever you settle on why should those boundaries be "permanent" instead of being subject to further warfare?

              One clue I've learned to pay attention to over the years – people who advocate for radical change in a general way, but without ever telling you the details of what they have in mind are doing this for a reason.

              They know damn well you won't like what they have in mind.

              • alwyn

                The please satisfy my curiosity. What do you think they really had in mind in terms of the permanence of the boundaries?

                I am sure they had in mind that all the land in New Zealand was included somewhere in the carve-up. It was only what could happen later that has me intrigued.

                • RedLogix

                  It was a long time ago – but I do clearly recall asking "so what about all the non-Maori living in this country?"

                  The answer was "You will find Maori to be generous hosts – if you pay the rent". Exact quote from a man who is a current member of the Maori Council and carries considerable political clout. I've seen nothing from him in recent times to resile from this view.

                  I want to emphasise my acquaintance and involvement with these people at that time was explicitly non-political. I really only came across all this by accident.

            • Gypsy

              In Auckland we have iwi fighting one another over mana whenua status. We have iwi who once transversed the isthmus and blew their nose claiming status over iwi with verified and centuries old connections. Maori colonising Maori. Oh the irony.

    • Ad 6.2

      I personally like the way Maori leadership are standing up here.

      They are in poor regions, but choosing to sacrifice massive economic benefit from sorely needed local tourists, for public health for their people. Courageous.

      Getting Maori leaders working side by side with Police for common community good is truly excellent.

      Nothing particularly PC or woke about this; just solid communitarian work.

      • pat 6.2.1

        Is "communitarian" going to be the public policy buzzword of 2022?

      • Subliminal 6.2.2

        Totally agree and hope it continues and strengthens. Blind adherence to some ideologic principal is no argument against this type of courage and compassion

      • Robert Guyton 6.2.3

        I agree with Ad here, but am a little puzzled by his/your use of "communitarian" – are you able to expand/specify?

        • In Vino

          A euphemism for communism?

        • Ad

          In it's definition it's a theory or system of social organization based on small self-governing communities.

          If Maori leadership at town or iwi level are building up their capacity to stand up proudly and take their kaitiaki place, they are going to need the support of Police.

          That little legislative tweak Ardern rushed through this week to help with roadblocks is a long, long way from where that relationship was in the Bolger and Clark years.

          We will get news reports of grumpies at checkpoints as the holidays start, but the tv optics of Maori leaders with Police will be very powerful.

          • Robert Guyton


          • Poission

            Well the great escape of the petri dishes from Ak for the 15th is cancelled.


            Tawhirimatea will decide the outcome.

          • RedLogix

            And how long before every iwi sets up borders to their own little territories? With Police and Army sent to enforce them.

            Think of the rapidly extending list of unthinkable dead rats from just five years ago that we've been forced to swallow in the name of 'safety'. And then tell me I'm hyperventilating.

            • Robert Guyton


              • RedLogix


                Ten years ago everyone would have agreed that the idea of men pretending to be women and then claiming to compete against them in sports was a complete nonsense.

                Ten years ago the idea of Ngaiti Tuhoe turning Te Urewera in to virtual no-go zone was a 'nonsense'.

                All too often yesterday’s ‘nonsense’ is flipped on it’s head and becomes today’s normal.

                And exactly what is happening at these 'roadblocks'? Who gets to pass and who does not? Who makes the decisions and how are they accountable for them?

                • Ad

                  The NZPolice have the handcuff and charge powers.

                  Iwi are there for support.

                  At the current Mercer hard checkpoint, oddly I find Maori reps at our checkpoints a softener to the martial power of the cops and the NZDF who are also there.

                  • RedLogix

                    The NZPolice have the handcuff and charge powers. Iwi are there for support.

                    So exactly who has created these checkpoints? And who is accountable for the decisions made to pass or not?

                • vto

                  it depends on your birth red…

                  like so much else today…


                  and some tangential,,, in te ao maori you are defined by your birth and by your ancestors

                  which is the antithesis of the pakeha approach

                  the complete antithesis

                  whereby jack is as good as his master and your birth and your ancestors are shunned as a defining component of your being

                  this clash isn't even acknowledged today – te ao maori and te ao pakeha are at complete and total odds in this most basic of human arenas…

                  (sorry, gone off track a bit, but it relates)

                  • RedLogix

                    in te ao maori you are defined by your birth and by your ancestors

                    Yes it's called whakapapa. On every marae the tangata whenua all know their lineage and exact spot on the tribal pecking order. Maori society is one of the most precisely calibrated class systems ever created.

                    Oh and they all know who the descendents of their 'slave' class are.

                • alwyn

                  "Ten years ago the idea of Ngaiti Tuhoe turning Te Urewera in to virtual no-go zone was a 'nonsense'."

                  I'm afraid that it certainly wasn't seen as nonsense long before that. I knew someone who lived in Whakatane all his life and had been a hunter in Te Urewera. I remember him saying as early as 1990 that is was being made very difficult to continue hunting there and that it was impossible to leave a vehicle safely anywhere in the region while doing so.

            • DukeEll

              Anti vaxxers – horrible, disgusting humans who don’t contribute to society and are holding the country to ransom. Can’t use public services or engage meaningfully any longer and will be prevented by government authority from going anywhere

              Māori who won’t get vaccinated – Noble indigenous communities entitled to prevent the free movement of people who are overwhelmingly vaccinated. Checkpoints funded With public money and supported by government authority.

              watch labour tank in the polls when the photos of traffic jams and stories of grumpy families with screaming toddlers hit the news outlets and hone harawira stands there telling everyone they are racist for not liking it.

          • roblogic

            Yes it will be powerful … in its disastrous consequences for Labour when the inevitable ten mile traffic jams occur and the holidays of a million people are ruined by tinpot dictators manning checkpoints like it's east germany or something.

      • Patricia Bremner 6.2.4

        Yes Ad, it makes a complete change, and many of us think the equity of this is excellent.

        VTO, think, those entitled holiday makers are going there because, the tangata whenua have not despoiled the beaches, and it is possible to have a lovely beach holiday.

        We need to admit equity requires we do more to make an even playing field in Health. It appears some marginal staff go to these areas for the very lack of oversight, and little thought was given to travel times and multi trips to vaccinate a whole family. The mobile clinics should have been there staffed by locals from the outset. DHB's have been silos.

        I think living by our Treaty obligations is quite hard for some.

        Each Christmas I raise a glass of bubbles to "departed Friends and Family". Two friends were Maori who died very early before they got the pension. Marina said to me, as she was dying with cancer, "Live long Trish, raise a glass to me when you are all together." I do that, and to hear Kiri Allen is clear after a year is great, such good news and that is not often the case with that cancer.

        We like many will not have our family together because of covid. Those telling themselves it is because Jacinda Ardern is too cautious should work out how many cases we might have without those regulations. So much self serving rubbish is being promoted based on dollars not lives.

        Yes we are stressed but nowhere as stressed as those entering their 4th and 5th lock downs with Omicron on the doorstep.

        Each day we should look round at family with comorbidities and or age and be ready to count our blessings. Things are not rosy but they could be far far worse, and some of our problems are scabs being removed from partially healed social sores.

        We have come through a time of instant gratification, and even "Consumer" is pivoting to gadgets which have long life and can be repaired. Built in obsolescence is not acceptable any more.

        We all say "not enough not fast enough", turning to a better way of living is hard and will impact people who thought they had a birth right of easy passage.

        To achieve Policy changes the Government has to take the bulk of the people with them. At the moment people are rather fractious, let us hope summer helps.

        • Subliminal

          Thanks Patricia and well put. Its way past time that this kind of partnership was put into practice and good on the govt to have the courage to support this even in the face of the prevalence of post colonial thinking. This is our unique character and its high time we supported those that only have the wellbeing of their communities at heart.

      • pat 6.2.5

        Like most things 'communitarianism' is in the eye of the beholder….


        Take your pick.

      • Foreign Waka 6.2.6

        Well now, who is paying for that economic disaster? No matter, just add it to the tab of 16 billion dollars payable by those who will be left working. Ooops, only government employees left also supported by the tax dollar? No matter, add it to the tab.

        Besides, it could be argued that a separate state is being advocated by stealth and time as the virus will engage everybody for decades and we are not just paying for it (the irony is not getting lost here) we are setting a precedent. I sometimes feel our politicians are either really naive or actually not finding any fault with this. Mr Hone Harawira knows exactly what he is doing.

        Its actually Aucklanders going on holiday who will be exposed not the other way around. But hey, who is a stickler for facts, eh?

        • Ad

          We are all paying for it.

          Currently about $60b in the hole for future generations to pay off.

          • alwyn

            That number has been going up by about $1 billion/week during the Auckland shutdown. But not to worry. Grant knows what he is doing doesn't he? Just don't expect any sort of welfare state to be available for your kids.

            • Tricledrown

              Alwynger so if we didn't have a strong economic stimulus we may have less debt but no economic activity.

              Take away your blood supply and see how you survive.

              Same in an economy keeping the economic activity at a much higher level by simulation means you start rebuilding nearer to where your economy was.

              Your idea of not borrowing or QE

              Would have seen much more damage to our economy.

              Maybe your economic ideas come from Charter schools set up at 2× plus the cost of state schools yet fail and the board members defraud tax payers of $400,000 no enquiry because the Nats ans ACT did not allow for accountability.

              Argentina tried your formula of following the purist chicago school economics in 1996 to 97 .It has never recovered.

              • pat

                What economic stimulus?

                You mean the billions borrowed to speculate on the RE market?

                • Tricledrown

                  It's more than your simplistic swipe of course we could have had a cash injection for everybody as well as the Banks but we now operate under new Liberal economics.So we have to follow that system. Which political party offers an alternative that gets more than 1200 votes ,None.

                  If you go back to the 1930's the main reason the 1929 crash went on for 5 years plus was that banks were allowed to fail.

                  • pat

                    The point is there has been no 'stimulus'…it is a misnomer. There has been life support… but GDP remains below pre pandemic, the bulk of the Gov 'borrowing' remains unused at the RBNZ and the only 'stimulating' done was to the FOMO of property buyers.

                    And after all this the same issues remain or have been intensified.

            • Tricledrown⁸

              The figure is $350 million a week the govts books are in very good order especially compared to all other economies our economy is in the top 3 in the world.

              If we had gone down National and ACT'S policy rabbit hole.Of minimal borrowing no QE.

              NZs economy would be amongst the worst performing.

              Having to recover from a much smaller base of economic activity takes years and even decades like Argentina.

            • Tricledrown

              If that was a billion a week the debt levels would be much higher.

              Total debt IMF figures in NZ dollars $102 billion $50 billion less than your statista estimates.

              When you compare pats with yours there is a massive discrepancy.

              Pats figures are only relative to some time before June 30 when the reporting period finished.

              Then QE is not included and returns a profit for tax payers hence over all borrowing Cost's are well down.

              Since the Second round more money has been spent reading through treasury out of the $60 billion only $5.1 hasn't been spent.

              5 months have past since the full treasury report .

              According to the IMF our govt debt is at approx $102 billion 30.1% of gdp.

              Lower much lower than the worst case scenario.

          • Blazer

            Key Govt managed to borrow circa $60 billion with no…pandemic to deal…with.

            20 billion in one year.

            'the previous largest amount ever borrowed in a single financial year – which was almost $20 billion in 2011 in the wake of the global financial crisis, when National's Bill English held the reins.'newshub.

    • AB 6.3

      Seymour wants to inflame perceptions that police-iwi collaboration is some sort of constitutional outrage and hopes to provoke a few incidents at the Northland soft border that are worthy of media coverage. A total cynic, he wants back in government and a chance to unleash his libertarian dimwittery on all of us.

      As someone who expects to pass through that border several times over summer, I have no problem with locals of whatever hue, culture or interest group being part of the police effort to spot check vaccine passes. The last thing I want is inflammatory lunatics like Seymour making the border a place of simmering racial tension.

  7. Sacha 7

    Tide turning in the US.

  8. Sacha 8

    Choosing a camping ground.

    • Robert Guyton 8.1

      "negging" – that's a significant word.

    • Rosemary McDonald 8.2

      As a recent ex member of the NZMCA might I just offer a tiny little bit of motorhomer insider information?

      The very vastest majority of NZMCA members get around in certified fully self contained motorhomes/caravans/ and god forbid converted Busses.

      Therefore, there is absolutely no reason for one member to have to hobnob with another member whilst staying in the vastest majority of the Ass.'s parkover properties. We all do our necessaries in our own vehicles…which…I might add (and Patricia Bremner will confirm this) will each be parked (by Ass's decree) a full 3 meters from it's neighbour. We were practicing social distancing in the Assoc waay before you lot had ever heard of such a thing.

      Any hobnobbing is purely voluntary and given the, ahem, older demographic predominating in the Ass. one would hope in all sincerity we they would have the sense to follow the rules.

      Just like last year when the Assoc decided to hurl all members out of the parkover properties (that we fucking well own BTW) for Lockdown 1.0 …this makes no sense and many members are seriously pissed off.

      The same codgers members who are celebrating this will also be seen at Pak n Spend on Superday doing their weekly shop with all the other masked folk… vaccinated and not. Go figure.

      AFAIK The Government has not mandated vaccine passes for accommodation and campgrounds whatever colour traffic light is lit.


      • weka 8.2.1

        probably time for another association to form. NZMCA supporting Labour's proprosed really fucking classist rules around free camping is pissing a lot of people off.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          You (and me too) are a bit late to that party. There are a couple of very enthusiastic groups out there…many members who are refugees from the NZMCA. Long before the Covid shit show there has been deep rumblings regarding the reach demanded by NZMCA…to the point of trying to make themselves the 'one source of truth' with the government on freedom camping and self containment.

          Had its day.

      • Patricia Bremner 8.2.2

        Yes I thought that strange at the time Rosemary. It seemed a bit draconian. But Nash does not like Motorhomes much at all. How many belong now? We were 18160.

        • Rosemary McDonald

          We are were 32726. What a difference in the paint shade when I ceremoniously removed the wings after 13 years. Last I checked the numbers were well into the 100000s. It is a very, very different club to what is was back in the day when you had to be nominated by another member just to join. In the last few years we converted Bus dwellers were treated like the poor relations. Good thing is that their tupperware containers on wheels are much too flash to go the roads we frequented.wink The latest issue of the Motorcaravanner features a young mum and her son on the cover heralding the Ass. movement towards inclusivity and more family friendliness. Oh the irony that on the day it was posted out they announced the ban on the unvaccinated. Their cover girl and her young son are now excluded. She sent them a video clip of her cutting up her membership card (they want proof of this to qualify for a fees refund).

          Hidihi campers!

    • Sacha 8.3

      More on campground responses to Covid threat. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127228499/more-campgrounds-ban-unvaccinated-campers-but-experts-fear-a-summer-spread

      Department of Conservation campgrounds and huts will require passes from December 15, and most holiday parks in the Top 10 group will take only vaccinated campers from varying December dates.

      Holiday Parks New Zealand chief executive Fergus Brown estimates about 70 per cent of camping grounds so far have mandated passes, and that the number will climb.

  9. pat 9

    Merry Christmas

    "The Government has delayed the next stage of its controversial Three Waters reforms until next year"


  10. Gordon B 10

    Another day, another thing banned by the Government.

    What's next? Ban democracy because it's dangerous?

    Except that's kinda already happening. Rule by experts and elite, a technocratic vision for what's good for us if we weren't just such bad little boys and girls. A democracy that is all kratos and little demos.

    The unspoken and underlying principle of the Labour Party is now the people can't be trusted and choice is verboten. The people are dumb, the people are dangerous, unsullied and incompetent. Our morality is superior and for the good of the country, must be imposed. And shush, actual concerns of child poverty or living costs are secondary – what matters is you sit down, shut up, and log off from Facebook if you don't like it.

    Except we can't "log off" from life under this Government. It pervades every nook and cranny. This morality and governance is little different to Poland or Hungary in the end analysis. A self-righteous Government defending its crusade for the ''greater good'', the public morality. Almost every democracy that slides into soft Authoritarianism does so under the guise of the greater good, the public good, and often to fight a crisis – imagined or exaggerated. China tells its country the Uyghur are dangerous, they need segregating and re-educating – they could be terrorists you see, and are being feed misinformation about the wonderful CCCP.

    Hungary is defending its traditional morality, NZ is imposing its "new"morality, with the help of $55 million slush for the way for media. There is little difference in the end, except a more smiley face here.

    I've started accepting the use of "Aotearoa" (even though only about 9% want this to replace "New Zealand") because it reflects the new paradigm of our country: it is inexorably heading towards a new regime of soft Authoritarianism and moral coercion. What's best for you, to hear, say, and do, is what we say – you "freedumb", racist peasant.

    [I think you are on the wrong site. Try BFD or Kiwiblog – MS]

    • Ad 10.1

      Christ on a bike Gordon insert an actual fact somewhere.

      An actual credible link or two would stop you looking like an unhinged nutjob.

      • weka 10.1.1

        He could start with his first sentence and a link to whatever it is he thinks the government has banned so we know what he is talking about. Or even just name it.

  11. arkie 11

    Our Poverty Action Plan will completely change the way we support people in New Zealand so when people ask for help, they get it. It overhauls the broken welfare system and guarantees that everyone who needs it, no matter what, has a minimum income they can rely on.

    Sign on to our plan to show your support for this bold policy for change.


    Have a read of the Poverty Action Plan and sign the petition to support rebuilding our welfare system in a way that doesn't involve two tiers.

  12. Matiri 12

    John Bougen, who funded Reefton’s remarkable revival, is furious with anti vaxxers. He is chair of the local Community Board and also a Buller District Councillor.


    • Robert Guyton 12.1

      A Buller District Councillor, "furious with anti vaxxers"?

      Will wonders never cease??

    • Rosemary McDonald 12.2

      Mr Bougen needs to organize a quiz night at the pub…that'll liven things up.

      A Sydney Pub quiz has dished out some unwanted prizes: 45 Covid-19 infections.

      All of those to be diagnosed with Covid-19 have been fully vaccinated.

      Details of the potential super-spreader event emerged a day after NSW Health warned about Christmas parties.

      “NSW Health is seeing an increased number of cases over the last couple of days, and what we’ve been observing is increased transmission in larger social venues such as pubs, clubs and party settings,” Chief Health Officer Kerry Chant said.

      “This is contributing to the increase in cases, and they’re predominantly occurring in vaccinated individuals."

      The wheels on the bus are falling off, falling off, falling off….

  13. Blade 13

    As a Righty, I found yesterday infuriating. I am referring to the governments communist legislation ( I don't know how else to describe it from MY perspective) to stop future generations of New Zealanders enjoying cigarettes if they so choose. Worse, current smokers will have to accept smokes with less nicotine.

    My old socialist aunt who would make many Lefties on this blog look like Parnell woofters, was fond of saying smokes and beer are the working man's perk. I agree, but would add KFC, Dak and P to the mix.

    However, it's not Labour raising my ire. That's typical Lefty legislation(?) My problem is with Luxon's response. He said he agrees with it in principle. Say what! Luxon should be shouting and promising such crap legislation will be repealed before morning tea break. As I suspected – the guy is woke.

    The second disappointment was HDA. I hold Heather in high regard, but not once did she ask Ayesha Verrall during an interview '' what the hell the government was doing legislating the future choices young New Zealanders can make.''

    The problem here is simple – Labour know what they stand for and are prepared to act. National don't know what they are about. National say the right things but always seem to have a wet finger in the air trying to devine which way the winds of political fortune are blowing.

    National should forget courting the mushy middle vote and go hardline. Ironically the way this Labour government is acting makes that a possible political goldmine.

    • Robert Guyton 13.1

      Oh, grow up, Blade!

      (Kindly meant 🙂

    • Robert Guyton 13.2

      " I hold Heather in high regard"

      You what??

      • Blade 13.2.1

        I hold Heather in high regard. Don't tell me you are in Jessica and Tova's fan club?

        Hold on… Jesse and Kanoa's fan club? Oh, I give up.

        • Robert Guyton

          " Don't tell me you are…"

          I won't.

          You hold "Heather" in "high regard"?


        • In Vino

          Blade, you are yet another Righty who has no idea of what communism means, aren't you? The minute you find something totalitarian or dictatorial, out comes that communist word, even though it is irrelevant.

          When did you give up on the process of learning? (Remember – it is meant to be a life-long process.)

    • observer 13.3

      He's not "woke", but your penultimate para is closer to the mark.

      I look at it this way. Most of us have a view about smoking, and related laws (you might not be surprised to know mine is very different from yours). We don't need to be MPs, or even very interested in politics, to have an opinion about a common issue. It's been around for decades, everything from sports sponsorship to smoking in bars.

      Now I would guess that Luxon has a personal view too (he's 51, how could he not?). I have no idea what it is. If he was this "new broom" that he purports to be, he would be saying the same thing now that he said before he entered politics. Saying, in effect: "Here's my opinion, make of it what you will". But he won't.

      Winning the leadership didn't change his views on smoking, or anything else. It only changed his willingness to express them. That's the kind of leader he's going to be, and I'm afraid you'll have to get used to it.

      • Robert Guyton 13.3.1

        At 51, he's a new broom?

      • Pete 13.3.2

        National should be decisive, come out and say tobacco is there, it]s a fact of life and take the heavy taxes off tobacco. The prices of cigarettes would plummet and the freedom and choice people will be happy.

        • Barfly

          Yeah mate and they should lead back in petrol to!

        • Blade

          Cigarettes – soon to be worth more than gold in Aotearoa. Everyone will be in on the action. Gee, thanks Labour. You gormless control freaks.

          Folks, get this kit before they are BANNED!


          Unfortunately, these kits will be of little use to hard working dairy owners who soon may be out of business because Labour are on a power trip. To be fair, these dairy owners are entitled to go straight on the dole.

          • weka

            I think you might be missing the incremental nature of the ban. Someone born in 2007 ie 14 years old today, will never be able to buy cigarettes legally. They will however be able to smoke them. Their aunty or baby sitter or older brother can buy them for them. Happy now?

            By the time the 14 year old is 18, a number of elderly relatives will have passed on, but there will still be many many people able to buy cigarettes and give them to the now 18 year old.

            By the time they are in their 60s, we will have run out of people legally allowed to buy cigarettes, but I expect by then tobacco companies will have long folded and we will be smoking home grown (much better for us).

            Or they can just vape, but fucked if I know why that's not being regulated as well. Disgusting, breathing in other people's artificially scented peppermint lung vapour.

            • Blade

              ''I think you might be missing the incremental nature of the ban. Someone born in 2007 ie 14 years old today, will never be able to buy cigarettes legally. They will however be able to smoke them. Their aunty or baby sitter or older brother can buy them for them. Happy now?''

              No, the point you are missing has nothing to do with smoking, but everything to do with unnecessary restrictive legislation.

              You see, both National and Labour are at base level pragmatists. They are not philosophically consistent. You nail that in your final paragraph.

              BTW- I smoked for 25 years. Loved every moment of it, especially that smoke after a good evening meal. But I had to give up and cannot now tolerate being around smokers ( vapers are worse). But…I have no desire to legislate against smokers provided they respect my rights which most do.

              This drive for compulsion is where I take a different fork in the road to most posters on this blog.

              • weka

                You see, both National and Labour are at base level pragmatists. They are not philosophically consistent. You nail that in your final paragraph.

                It's entirely consistent with mainstream public health positioning, which sees smoking as a serious health issue and doesn't believe that vaping is.

                As for compulsion, I have my own limits (I'm uneasy with aspects of the vax mandates and the degree to which people are completely fine with it). But from a public health perspective, smoking damages so many people and costs the state, it's not hard to see the rationales.

                I prefer the other approach suggested yesterday, make sale illegal and smokers have to register their addiction and be supplied by the state. Although I know from my own experience that being able to choose one's own brand of cigarette is part of the pleasure.

                I am intrigued by this particular ban and will wait to see how it is implemented and what the consequences are. But NZ has been successful in previous anti-smoking policy, so this probably fits in with that. It's a fairly classic personal freedom vs collective good social dilemma.

                I'd have more of a problem if they were to make the growing of tobacco illegal.

        • Drowsy M. Kram

          Wouldn't put it past them, remembering that one of the Nat's former rising stars, ex-MP Todd Barclay, was a lobbyist for big tobacco, although his personal views were strongly 'anti-tobacco'. According to this Stuff article, Bishop (current shadow Leader of the House, and Nat Covid-19 response spokesperson) also worked for Philip Morris before entering parliament.


      • Foreign Waka 13.3.3

        I wonder how many tourists from countries where smoking is still a "normal" thing will want to come to NZ?

        Its an addiction and it is a good idea to curtail it. My concern is that if you stamp it out it will be replaced by something else, juvenile curiosity will not go away.

        • Robert Guyton

          If we stamp out smoking tobacco, goodness only knows what those feckless yoofs will take up!!

          Wool carding?


          Why, when I was a boy….

    • National should forget courting the mushy middle vote and go hardline.

      Hey, Blade, couldn't agree with you more. Out Act Act and divide Act's 15% between them, plus a few confused Natz who don't really know what to think.

      You've got onto it mate, a winning formula.

      • Blade 13.4.1

        Nah, mate. You forget your chums are becoming more unpopular by the day. And those baubles for the chattering class before the next election will be paid for with printed money. Now, which group in society is in big trouble at the moment. Let's see… oh, it's the middleclass. We don't count the poor because they have little power. They don't own small businesses.. Aren't nurses or doctors in the health sector. Tourism? let's not go there. Wanting to travel overseas, Lol. That's a lot of pissed off people, TV. They represent middle NZ.

        But all this is becoming academic. National may only need to turn up at the next election to win. You may have to accept that.

    • Ad 13.5

      Looks like Act is your reluctant new home.

      At the next opinion poll, make sure you support them into the 20% realm.

    • roblogic 13.6

      "My old socialist aunt who would make many Lefties on this blog look like Parnell woofters"

      Hang on, I am presently domiciled in Parnell! (it's a relative's house, I could never afford it)

    • Craig H 13.7

      Authoritarian is probably the better term. National probably see Luxon's job as to stay centrist and leave the right wing libertarian vote to go ACT.

  14. ianmac 14

    Conspiracy theories abound in USA and edge into NZ.

    The USA youth have started a new one, "Birds Aren’t Real." The claim is that birds are really electronic units created by Government to track the people.

    In Pittsburgh, Memphis and Los Angeles, massive billboards recently popped up declaring, “Birds Aren’t Real.”

    On Instagram and TikTok, Birds Aren’t Real accounts have racked up hundreds of thousands of followers, and YouTube videos about it have gone viral.

    What a neat idea. NZers could try this to counter Qnon and others here. "It’s Gen Z’s attempt to upend the rabbit hole with absurdism."


    • Macro 14.1

      Further from the link ianmac posted above

      In September, shortly after a restrictive new abortion law went into effect in Texas, Birds Aren’t Real members showed up at a protest held by anti-abortion activists at the University of Cincinnati. Supporters of the new law “had signs with very graphic imagery and were very aggressive in condemning people,” Mr. McIndoe said. “It led to arguments.”

      But the Bird Brigade began chanting, “Birds aren’t real.” Their shouts soon overpowered the anti-abortion activists, who left.

  15. Blazer 15

    I don't think it will…fly.

  16. arkie 16

    MSD is broken, we need a better system that deals in dignity and equality:

    More than half a million New Zealanders are in debt to MSD at an average of $3400, but for Māori that average is almost $1000 more.

    Auckland Action Against Poverty's Brooke Pao Stanley said people were taking out these loans just to live.

    "If you get a food grant then you don't have to pay that back, but everything else if you require support with rent, bills arrears, if your babies need uniforms, stationary, help with car repairs, all of that becomes debt for you," she said.

    The repayments are set at the discretion of MSD staff.

    Men on average pay back $11.09 a week, while women on average pay $16.33 a week. When split by ethnicity, Pākehā on average pay $12.78 cents weekly and Māori $16.01 per week.

    The figures were obtained by Green MP Ricardo Menendez March, who said it reeks of systemic discrimination.


    • Blazer 16.1

      Beneficiaries generally lack financial literacy and continue to be preyed on by resellers and loan sharking.

      Some ethnic groups still have the $100 loan =$20 a week ,interest ,until paid off=never.

      Seen a woman with a stack of eftpos cards at the ATM…

      Clamping down on those shopping trucks helps,but alot of car and household goods dealers still rip beneficiaries off shamelessly.

      • arkie 16.1.1

        Our governmental support system shouldn't behave like predatory lenders with discriminatory repayment rates.

        • Blazer

          All roads lead to the usury of the embedded rentier …society,that continues to get…worse.

          • arkie

            I disagree, there definitely is a narrative of a worsening society but this is as old as society itself. There are gains and there are losses, but until we collectively reject the party that refuses to fix these issues we can expect the status quo of our economy to continue. We aren't powerless.

            • Blazer

              So you don't agree that property/the rentier society is where unequal outcomes originate?

              What are the gains from a rentier society?

              • arkie

                I disagree that society continues to get…worse.

                The gains are the moves against the continuation of said rentier society. The contradictions society has accepted can and are being re-examined.

                • Blazer

                  News to me.

                  • arkie

                    It suits the status quo for people to become nihilistic.

                    The change is there if you look for it:

                    Here’s how our Poverty Action Plan works for all of us:

                    • A Guaranteed Minimum Income of $325 per week for students and people out of work, no matter what.
                    • A Universal Child Benefit for kids under three of $100 per week.
                    • A simplified Family Support Credit of $190 per week for the first child and $120 per week for subsequent children to replace the Working for Families tax credits with a higher abatement threshold and lower abatement rate.
                    • Additional support for single parents through a $110 per week top-up.
                    • Reforming ACC to become the Agency for Comprehensive Care, creating equitable social support for everyone with a work-impairing health condition or disability, with a minimum payment of 80% of the full time minimum wage.
                    • Changes to abatement and relationship rules so people can earn more from paid work before their income support entitlements are reduced.
                    • A 1% wealth tax for those with a net-worth over $1 million.
                    • And two new top income tax brackets for a more progressive tax system which redistributes wealth.


                    There is: Renters United!

                    Renters United is an advocacy group that organises renters and campaigns to make renting better for everyone.

                    And: Income-Related Rents 4 ALL

                    We are a Wellington City Council Housing tenant-led campaign calling on the Government to give us the IRRS 🏡 please share our message far & wide!

                    And: ONE Union

                    One Union is a social justice movement, a registered trade union, and a non-profit incorporated society.

                    We help workers who don’t have access to a union in their workplace.

                    We provide individual advocacy and free advice for workers with employment problems.

                    And their: UTU for Workers campaign

      • weka 16.1.2

        Beneficiaries generally lack financial literacy and continue to be preyed on by resellers and loan sharking.

        Beneficiaries generally lack adequate income to live on and have to resort to whatever way they can to pay rent and buy food/clothing.

        Seen a woman with a stack of eftpos cards at the ATM…

        Whose cards were they?

        • Blazer

          The people who she loaned money to.

          She would draw their money out…keep her interest and hand the rest over.

          When they paid off the loan…they get their card back.

    • Foreign Waka 16.2

      I think to make a general welfare issue that is actually not paying enough to live on a racial issue is dangerous as it diverts the issue and divides the country further. It also gives the ministers to bide time and get nothing done. Like with so many issues needing attention.

      Just on a different issue here, can we look at what the money is spend on? Perhaps those gold plated cigarettes? If you have the habit nothing is left to pay any bills. Who are we kidding…

  17. Puckish Rogue 18


    I don't like victim blaming and maybe there was a good reason but why did you stop?

    • millsy 18.1

      Yep, I would have kept going, even if it was in reverse.

      • Puckish Rogue 18.1.1

        Yep dont't stop, keep going.

        Avoid hitting them if you can but if one won't get out of your way then thats their choice, your choice is to protect yourself and whoever else is in the car.

        • McFlock

          Not sure that's an ideal decision – if you hit one, some will just jump in the vehicles that work and pursue. And longer term they'll likely track you down anyway, especially if the one you hit gets seriously hurt.

          Locking the doors before stopping is always an option, to avoid the quick "jump in" – but that's a captain hindsight thing. Can take a while to get into the groove of locking when you have to slow down (around campus it was just fecking students jumping in unexpectedly).

          Looks to me like dude probably did the things with the least likelihood of getting him seriously beaten.

          • Puckish Rogue

            Comes down to the decision of do you want them in your car or not.

            Safety in the short term vs long term I guess, not a situation I'd like to find myself in.

            'This led to Jury, 45, and his associates walking onto the road in a bid to flag down vehicles. All were dressed in Mongrel Mob regalia and most were drunk.'

            So others drove off but he stopped

            • McFlock

              Maybe they just got better at blocking the road.

              Maybe the other drivers assessed the situation more quickly, or had doors that were already locked.

              But hitting them will only piss off their mates.

          • millsy

            Yeah, last thing anyone needs is a Mongerel Mob price on their head.

            • Puckish Rogue

              Thats in the future, what about right there and then.

              • McFlock

                Right there and then, you might get out of it with a lot of fear and a demanded tow to their destination.

                Given the choice of shit flavour to eat, I'll do the tow rather than looking over my shoulder in the future.

          • weka

            as a woman I would totally have locked all the doors before stopping, wouldn't even have had to think about that.

            • weka

              I guess next move is to try and back up, and if that fails, dial 111.

            • Puckish Rogue

              If you find yourself in that situation please never stop.

              You stop you'll be surrounded, drive forward you'll hit someone, reverse you'll hit someone

              Then they can easily break a window or something

              • weka

                Yeah, I was still assuming they're standing in the middle of the road, so reversing seemed more likely. But I wouldn't be stopping either if I could help it.

                • Puckish Rogue


                  Far too often women will ignore their 'gut feeling' because they don't want to be seen of or thought of as unkind or uncaring.

                  F**k that shit, protect yourself first and foremost

                  (I know you know this but this is for anyone else reading this that doesn't get it)

                  • RedLogix


                    When faced with an unknown threat you have to survive it moment to moment. It's no use worrying about what might happen tomorrow if you're dead today.

                  • weka

                    Women's self defence classes (taught by feminists) in my 20s is a big part of it. Reading Gavin Debecker a bit later on too.

                    Biggest problem I have atm is that my car windows are manual not electric. Safer if I drive into a river or the harbour though, lol.

                    Far too often women will ignore their 'gut feeling' because they don't want to be seen of or thought of as unkind or uncaring.

                    Agree. I once lied to a guy in a pub, who I kind of knew, who wanted a ride just down the road when he heard me say I was about to go home. Small country pub where it would definitely have been considered rude to say no, but it also felt risky to say no to his face, not because he would have done anything there, but it would have told him I was afraid of him and I didn't want him to know.

                    I told him I had to make a phone call first and I'd let him know when I was leaving and then I walked outside and got in the car and drove away. No fucking way was I getting in a car with that guy. No rational reason other than my hackles were completely up (which is completely rational).

                    • weka

                      Probably the other thing that instilled this in me was when I was eight I was sitting in the car waiting for mum to come back from a shop. Middle of town, middle of the day. A group of heavy duty Māori men were walking past, don't remember if they were patched. I don't remember what I did, whether I pointed or laughed or just stared, I think I was probably just staring, but one of them strode towards the front of the car and banged really hard on it while staring right at me. Scared the bejezus out of me, made me much more aware of my social surroundings and how I appear to others.

                      I had a friend who was gang raped by the mob in her late teens, and heard her opinions about gangs clearly enough. I do still believe in helping people in gangs and gangs generally, because the cycle has to be broken, but I don't see that as incompatible with understanding how dangerous they are.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Good (and informative) story, I just hope it didn't stir up bad feelings for you.


                    • weka

                      nah, all good. It's useful to be able to reflect on why I learned the things I did.

                    • Blade

                      Gavin de Becker – ''How Dangerous Men Think''

                      Read that book last year as part of my research. A great book that is cited as source material for many other publications.

                      The rape story as told by a victim and dismantled by Becker to show all the warning signs the victim missed was exceptional. So many warning signs missed – so many warning signs most women don't realise.

                      PS – I'm a little sceptical about women's self defense classes. Many of the moves are unrealistic in a surprise attack situation. The same goes for men's self defence.

                    • Blade

                      Oops. The Gift Of Fear by Gavin de Becker.

                      How Dangerous Men Think by Brent Sanders ( ex Kiwi cop)

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      'I'm a little sceptical about women's self defense classes. Many of the moves are unrealistic in a surprise attack situation. The same goes for men's self defence.'

                      What the classes are good for though is getting people to think about situational awareness, about not putting themselves in potentially dangerous situations in the first place

                      Sort of like what Weka is talking about

                    • weka

                      feminist self defensive classes being taught in the 80s were a different beast, don't know if they're still going. I won't talk about the details in a mixed group for obvious reasons, but the value in them is to give women the confidence to act and to predict when that might be necessary.

                    • Blade

                      Yes, points taken. However, I forgot to add this which I think is pertinent to some points raised.

                      I read an article about how Self Defence classes had gained the woman mentioned much more confidence in her ability to protect herself. She said: " I'm far more confident. Last night I walked across the park to my home without fear.''

                      As PR states, situational awareness is where it's at. And this poor woman didn't have it. Just as Social Media has given many folk false expectations, women fighting in the MMA has given woman a false sense of their abilities. These MMA woman train 24/7. They are beasts. They become men in a feminine body

                      ''Feminist self defensive classes being taught in the 80s were a different beast, don't know if they're still going.''

                      Probably not, but something just as bad is Master Chief Tank Todds course. What those women do to a dildo chilled my blood.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Dunedin School of Combat for the win!

                      She said: " I'm far more confident. Last night I walked across the park to my home without fear.''

                      Yeah this, is the park the safest way home, if not then why go that way, why put yourself in that situation.

                    • weka

                      two things.

                      There's a difference between self defence classes being run for women, and those being run by feminists.

                      Without seeing the article I can't comment on the woman's comment, but obviously if one has to walk through a park at night, then not being afraid is a good thing.

                    • Blade

                      That was my point, PR. Too many crap courses that will get people killed.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      I agree with you. Over confidence can be a very bad thing.

            • McFlock

              Drive enough hours around the same neighbourhood, having to get out and back in every so often – nobody is perfect at locking the doors, men or women. It's a learned behaviour.

              • weka

                I'm telling you I've already learned it. As a woman.

                • McFlock

                  And I'm telling you as someone who's had a lot of co-drivers (mostly women, because of the nature of the job), nobody is perfect at keeping the passenger doors locked – yes, not even women.

                  So I'm not going to be judging the kidnapped driver for that technical slip-up.

                  • weka

                    yeah, I wasn't talking about the man in the story, or your work colleagues. I don't drive round with the passenger doors locked. I have taught myself to lock the doors in certain situations and it's kind of automatic now. If I'm in my car and a strange man approaches me in a place with no other people around, I will lock the door and wind down the window enough to ask what he wants. Likewise at home when I've lived on my own, if someone comes to the door at night, I will make sure it's locked before asking who it is.

                    I agree it's learned behaviour. My reading of the man in the story is that he felt somewhat comfortable stopping in that situation and then it got out of hand.

                    • McFlock

                      Whereas I read it as someone who was going about their regular day and was reactively trying to process irregular but escalating behaviour. Some people spend so much time trying to understand the situation that's unfolding that they're always behind the 8-ball. I've done it myself. Binary switching from "boring work drive" to "imminent threat" isn't universal.

                      I brought up locking doors because it was relevant to the incident being discussed. You always lock your doors, fine. Not everyone has that habit.

                    • weka

                      yes, that was my point. Many women have learned to make it a regular habit because of our particular vulnerability in society. I don't always lock my doors, but am confident I would have in that situation because I've trained myself to act preemptively defensively. It's not foolproof (as I said above, my current car has manual windows, so if any of the passenger windows were down in that situation, locking the doors wouldn't help much).

                      The guy seemed pretty resilient, although he could be putting on a brave face for the journo as well.

                    • McFlock

                      Cool, so in response to the description of this incident and one possible prevention option, you say you and many women already do that so you wouldn't have had that particular escalation path.

                    • weka

                      Lol, no, I'm saying that my instinctual response would have been to lock the doors. Whether that de-escalated or escalated the situation is another matter. I'm not so arrogant as to assume I would get to determine how things would play out if I had been in the same situation.

                      I am saying that women have had to think about this in different ways from men, and some of us have been fortunate to be trained into pre-emptive defensive action.

                      For instance as a woman, I think my risk in that particular situation is different from a man's and that this influences what are good choices in the moment (such that we have).

                    • McFlock

                      And yet some men also do that defensive action, and some women don't.

                      I find these stories useful because it allows one to consider similar situations, and maybe think about options for getting out of those situations with the least risk.

                      You might want to turn it into a whole other discussion. Have that discussion with someone else.

                    • weka

                      If I'm not mistaken you suggested that going along with the situation was probably safer than trying to take action to prevent it. I'm saying that's more true for men than women.

                      Deleted the last bit of my comment because it doesn’t help any of us to go to that level. But suffice to say I will speak as a feminist any time I want.

                    • McFlock

                      Well, yes, you are mistaken. I said going along with things as it developed in that situation was probably safer than pr's idea of just running them over.

                      I also said locking the doors would have changed that situation, but I'm not going to judge the dude for not thinking of that at the time.

                      And I said what I was not going to talk about, not what you should talk about. Have the convo with someone else, I don't care who.

                      Why you would want to start that discussion by replying to someone who apparently "wilfully misinterprets" such things is beyond me, anyway.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      'idea of just running them over.'

                      Seriously, you miss the part where I said 'Avoid hitting them if you can'?

                    • McFlock

                      Seriously, you miss the part where I said 'Avoid hitting them if you can'?

                      " but if one won't get out of your way then thats their choice, your choice is to protect yourself and whoever else is in the car."

                      You know what they say about everything before the word "but".

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Theres a big difference between avoid them if you can and just run them over

                      I'm sure even you might be able to see that

                    • McFlock

                      bugger all difference between "just run them over" and "if one won't get out of your way then thats their choice", though

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Again you are wrong

                      See the difference is "just run them over" sounds like you think thats my first and only action, as stated previously it isn't so you're wrong

                      "if one won't get out of your way then thats their choice" is their choice not mine, my first choice is to 'Avoid hitting them if you can' so again you're wrong

                      If I'm driving and someone jumps in front of my car then thats not my fault, thats on them thats their choice

                      Just out of curiosity I'm assuming you attend uni, what are you studying?

                    • weka

                      And I said what I was not going to talk about, not what you should talk about. Have the convo with someone else, I don't care who.

                      If you don't want to talk with me (or anyone) then don't. But it's pretty hard here to get people to not reply to conversations.

                      You said,

                      You might want to turn it into a whole other discussion. Have that discussion with someone else.

                      Which I took to mean: don't talk to me about feminist perspectives. I'm saying no, I will bring feminist perspectives into any conversation if it's relevant. Have you stopped and thought about what you are actually saying here? Don't talk to me about feminism

                      Why you would want to start that discussion by replying to someone who apparently "wilfully misinterprets" such things is beyond me, anyway.

                      I don't think you are wilfully misinterpreting what I am saying, I think you are telling me as feminist to not talk about feminism when talking to you.

                    • McFlock

                      Haven't studied in years. The uni is a major employer in dunners. Lots of folks drop in and out of different roles there.

                      If I'm driving and someone jumps in front of my car then thats not my fault, thats on them thats their choice

                      From my understanding, most cars have a pedal in the same general area as the "go faster pedal" that essentially has the opposite role.

                      If you can reasonably avoid hitting hitting the person by using that other pedal, then maybe a little bit of it would be your fault. Like if you rear-end someone, even though they braked suddenly you shouldn't have been following so close.

                      See the difference is “just run them over” sounds like you think thats my first and only action, as stated previously it isn’t so you’re wrong

                      Everything after “but” made it sound like you wouldn’t lose much sleep if folks ignored the bit before “but”.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Can you apply for a refund?

                    • McFlock


                      What I'm saying is that I'm not willing to discuss some specific subjects with specifically you at the moment, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't take comments I make on another subject altogether and warp them through a lens that I'm not willing to touch with a 50foot pole. Because only last night you explictly said I wilfully misinterpreted a position made with that perspective.

                      I already ignore great swathes of open mike most days. Now I'm supposed to what – ignore replies to my own damned comments because you want to twist them into something else?

                      I'm not even being a petulant teen and demanding you never reply to my comments ever again, nor am I packing a sad and stomping offline forever. But at the moment, some topics create nothing but friction when I get involved, and I can't be bothered with that hassle right now.

                      If someone wants to talk about what I'm cool with talking about, great. If they want to twist my comments into another debate, respectfully, my comments were absolutely not about that, and that is a discussion I'm not getting involved in.

                      I'd appreciate it, pretty please and with sugar on top, if my reply tab didn't get filled up with things I do not care to bother with, because I might miss a reply in a discussion I do want to participate in (be it something of significance that I won't apparently fuck up, or merely some pleasantly meaningless diversion).

                    • McFlock

                      Can you apply for a refund?

                      for my quals? lol pretty funny.

                      It would be even funnier if I hadn't narrowly missed out on fuckall fees, BUT at the moment I'm still getting student loan deductions.

                      See how the word "but" worked there? I learnified that in a communications paper I studied /sarc

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      Going off your postings on here I can see why you added the sarc tag

    • weka 18.2

      The Mob were on the road by the sounds of things. Also sounds like he wasn't initially scared of stopping for them, but only when he realised what they wanted did he become concerned. So maybe he's been around gangs before.

  18. Ed1 19

    I have been invited to contribute towards a worthwhile cause:


    How did we get to this! Who has authority to refuse treatment in a public hospital – let alone refuse to complete treatment already started!

    On the other hand, perhaps we do not have the whole story – do these sites vet carefully all the projects seeking donations that get posted?

    • alwyn 19.1

      Did you look at that photograph? You are surely not suggesting in that last sentence that she may not really need the operation?

      • McFlock 19.1.1

        I think one of the scam methods with these sites is for randos to set up to receive donations for a legitimate cause (or similar to), then pocket the cash.

        This one, fortunately, was set up by a friend of the family who could tell them that the money was raised in a day.

        So that life-changing problem solved. The wider problem is why they had to adopt american methods of healthcare funding in the first place.

      • Ed1 19.1.2

        The photograph shows a young person that clearly needs medical help. What it does not show is whether it is a person that was photographed at that stage some time ago and did in fact receive the medical help needed, or what country the person was in, or any other details to demonstrate that it is not a fraud, or even whether there are other reasons why cessation of assistance was appropriate.

        The givealittle organisation hopefully does vet requests for assistance. I did not say that it is a fraud, but if the content is true, I am concerned at the cessation of NZ public health assistance for this young person.

        The link given by McFlock below indicates that the story is indeed true, and the givealittle page indicates that over $134,000 has now been raised.

        It is not as if the results of treatment will have been unknown to medical staff until a sudden event; this case has been ongoing for years. Is it a case of too much bureaucracy? Too rigid budgets with insufficient discretion? Or are there facts that the public is not aware of? A health system that relies on charitable donations for expensive procedures.is not what New Zealanders expect.

  19. Pete 20

    Two deaths from covid. That's terrible for the families. It takes the total deaths in New Zealand to 44 (I think.)

    As a contrast, Alabama, the state closest in population to NZ, has a 7 day average of 9 and their total deaths are 16, 203.

    No doubt some morons somewhere can gather and spew their lunatic ravings about how the Government has totally mishandled things.

  20. Blade 21

    This prick showed no remorse. He only became emotional when his uncle turned his back on him. The take away from this is people like him ( and there are many) have no remorse when it comes to killing/harming Europeans. Europeans just don't register on their radar.

    There is a very large portion of Maori that would have no problem seeing the back of Europeans. And who's stoking the flames of separatism ? Well, it's the Labour coalition.


  21. Gezza 22

    Whoops. 😮

    “Talley’s is suing Television New Zealand over a series of stories in recent months about allegations of health and safety breaches at some of its worksites.

    The company said it has filed proceedings in the High Court at Auckland today, saying the stories were false and defamatory.

    After the initial stories went to air in July, Talley’s said it contracted former Police Commissioner Mike Bush to investigate the allegations.

    The company said Bush found the assertions in the stories were either taken out of context, overstated or already identified, and action was under way to address them, or they had already been remedied.

    TVNZ has refused to comment.”

    • RNZ

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