Open mike 10/01/2015

Written By: - Date published: 7:45 am, January 10th, 2015 - 212 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmikeThe Authors of The Standard are now in holiday mode. Posting will be less regular and dependant on individual author enthusiasm.

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

212 comments on “Open mike 10/01/2015”

  1. Pete George 1

    It was inevitable that the French killers have been killed. They lived by the gun, died by the gun. A fair enough outcome.

    Sad that more innocent people have been killed.

    What does this mean for New Zealand? There’s far less risk of anything like this happening here but it’s not zero risk. There should be and will be much discussion about surveillance for protection versus intrusion on privacy.

    There will also be ongoing discussion on immigration. There have been a number of calls to stop immigration of other cultures and religions, and some have even suggested deportation of all Muslims.

    It’s worth noting that the Kouachi brothers were born in France.

    So should anyone whose parents weren’t born in New Zealand be kicked out of the country just in case there’s a nutter amongst them?

    100% protection against terrorism is impossible.

    Terrorists want to create mayhem and provoke division. The best way to combat that is to remain calm and cautious, and to not change how we do things in New Zealand as a knee jerk reaction to events in France.

    Reacting to the hate and intolerance of terrorists with hate and intolerance allows them to destroy our special way of life.

    We need to hold New Zealand values as very precious – our tolerance of different cultures and religions with a relative absence of persecution based on differences.

    Innocent until proven a risk should be an unalienable Kiwi principle.

    • projectile-vomiting alert..!

      ..incoming..!..

      ..don yr rubbers..!

      • phillip ure 1.1.1

        a breakdown:

        ..bleeding-obvious – cliche/homily

        ..faux-concern..

        ..more faux-concern – hypothetical – more bleeding-obvious..

        ..more faux-concern – ridiculous-hypothetical/barking-mad suggestion/hypothetical..

        ..irrelevant-fact..

        ..eyewateringly-stupid hypothetical/question..

        ..bleeding-obvious..

        ..general-fretting..

        ..- non sequitur..

        ..homily..nationalistic self-pat on back..(completely fake/bullshit..)

        ..homily..

        ..(and that’s how he does what he does..)

        • RedLogix 1.1.1.1

          Fuck off phil. I’ve had a way bigger gutful of your noxious narrow-minded aggro than I have of PG.

        • The Al1en 1.1.1.2

          A breakdown? Yes, and judging by that post, it’s looking imminent.

          • weka 1.1.1.2.1

            3 troles in one thread. Fantastic.

            • RedLogix 1.1.1.2.1.1

              And a trollope?

            • phillip ure 1.1.1.2.1.2

              another fatuous-nothing from substance-free weka..

              ..it must be a day ending in a ‘y’..

              • b waghorn

                Jesus its the weekend play nice I’m off to the beach.

              • weka

                “substance-free weka”

                You do realise that I just called The Al1en a trole for baiting you with a slur on your mental health? No, of course not 🙄

                Seeing as how I don’t generally read your posts, it was probably unkind/premature of me to call you a trole. But thanks for confirming that you in fact are.

                I’m happy to leave this with the moderators for now, but honestly, this place is really starting to suck.

                • The Al1en

                  Not a slur, love, more an assessment based on the facts presented who’s accuracy is yet to be determined, but certainly hedging in my favour.

                  But since when were you bothered about slurs?

                  And to be totally fair, greeting a for once half decent post by pg with a bank of roll eyes, well that’s troll behaviour for you right there. 🙂

                  And now I bet you have a wee bitch fest over the word trollope.

                  “I’m happy to leave this with the moderators for now, but honestly, this place is really starting to suck.”

                  You’re as much responsible for suckage as any one here. I’ll leave it to the moderators 😆 Got hankies?

                  • weka

                    Not even going to bother reading that. Having a go at someone over mental health, in the way you did it. Trole bait. And bigoted.

                    You’re all welcome to each other.

                    • The Al1en

                      Yeah you read it, and I don’t care for your opinion – No respect, remember?
                      And this, a repeatable pattern, is partly the reason why, that and your double standards of course, which coincidentally, are again on show in these very exchanges.

                      So much for ‘the rest of us show tolerance’. Like fuck you do, love.

                      [karol: I warned below that these attacks and counters would be sent to moderation, for some time out if nothing else. This on-going interpersonal angst is off-putting to other people here.

                  • you are sick too allen and a fucken creep

                • @ weka..

                  ..apologies if i mis-read yr original intent..

                  • The Al1en

                    She’s still calling you a troll though you numb nut, and you apologise to her 😆

                    You’re 2/3

                    [karol: guys, can you call a halt on this tit for tat angst, and stop this line of attack-counter here. I’ll send any more comments in this line to moderation – if only for a bit of time out]

                    • The Al1en

                      [karol: I warned below that these attacks and counters would be sent to moderation, for some time out if nothing else. This on-going interpersonal angst is off-putting to other people here.

                      I was composing my reply, now in moderation, when you made the call to stop so I couldn’t have possibly seen it before I pressed submit comment.

                      But whatever. You wear the big hat.

                    • David

                      Well, this whole thread is shit, you should all hang your heads in shame and go troll at that sewer. I’d like the kilojoules of energy I wasted reading all that tripe from pg, p ure and whatever you are calling yourself this week.

        • phillip ure 1.1.1.3

          that breakdown also shows how/why it/he is impossible/such an energy blackhole..

          ..’cos any/every component of that cd be challenged..

          ..which brings/raises the question:..where do you start..?

          ..and should you expend all that energy..dismantling each of those little nuggets..

          ..he will ignore yr response..

          ..and will just come up with a new batch of (smelly)-nuggets..

          ..(and that’s how he does what he does..)

    • les 1.2

      I thought they were only suspects in the Charlie H killings.

    • weka 1.3

      🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄 🙄

    • This is total rubbish. American police manage to capture extremist gunmen without killing them all the time. As long as they’re white.

      The rest is typical meaningless waffle.

      • Pete George 1.4.1

        Do you think the French police stuffed up the two sieges involving hostages?

        Because the armed terrorists weren’t white?

        I’m not trying to attribute anything to you, I’d just like to know how you think the Gendarmerie handled what has just happened in France.

        • Once wasTim 1.4.1.1

          They did what they did PG and as far as we know thus far, it wasn’t too bad.
          As to whether they dropped the ball earlier on (i.e…..failed to see the bleeding obvious – not unlike much of what goes on in this dainty little paradoise we call Nu Zull – time will tell.
          How can you honestly make any sort of judgements one way or the other based on CNN/Skoi/BBC? (You’re excused for not even bothering with local MSM reporting)
          Btw …. have you considered bobby socks with that outfit? You and Wayne could get in sync and form a minority party – just in time for the next election.
          Actually when it came to the ‘event’, various feks are beginning to emerge which those very same are beginning to acknowledge.

          (I’m in training to be a bitch btw – in keeping with another thread re left/right difference, and the whole ‘other side’ (right) blogging narrative.
          But Pete (and Wayne) – you really are gorgeous, the voice of reason, down with the kuds, and the hope of the funeral director’s future!

          • Pete George 1.4.1.1.1

            “How can you honestly make any sort of judgements one way or the other based on CNN/Skoi/BBC?”

            Is that directed at me, Stephanie or both of us?

        • I’m not commenting on the French situation. I’m rebutting your ridiculous assertion “It was inevitable that the French killers have been killed.”

          If Anders Breivik and the Aurora, Colorado shooter could be taken alive, then the deaths of gunmen is clearly not “inevitable”.

          • One Anonymous Bloke 1.4.1.2.1

            Breivik always intended to be taken alive, to have a platform for his hatespeech. Chérif Kouachi gave an interview before his death. So did Amedy Coulibaly.

            I don’t know about inevitable, but taking hostages and killing police certainly raises the odds quite a bit.

          • Pete George 1.4.1.2.2

            There were a number of indicators of inevitability. Cold blooded killing including of police, remaining armed and trying to elude police being fairly obvious ones.

            The two brothers there, Cherif and Said Kouachi, came out of the building firing at police and were killed. Two police officers were injured.

            Being killed was a fairly predictable result that I’m sure the Kouachis would have been aware of..

            • Murray Rawshark 1.4.1.2.2.1

              Inevitable means there was no other possible outcome. Until they were actually killed, there were any number of possible outcomes. The two extremes were escaping and being killed. You are again misusing the English language.

              But a number of trolls have already done far more to ruin this thread than you, PG. I’d like to think that wasn’t inevitable.

    • Murray Rawshark 1.5

      Apparently Whalespew was born in Fiji. He’s a violent extremist. I don’t mind if he gets deported.

  2. (those freedom-of-speech concerns i expressed yesterday are far better articulated by others..)

    http://whoar.co.nz/2015/joe-sacco-on-satire-%E2%80%93-a-response-to-the-charlie-hebdo-attacks/

    (and..)

    http://www.alternet.org/world/jesuischarlie-no-im-really-not-charlie-hebdo-and-heres-why

    “..In reality – some of Charlie Hebdo’s most offensive cartoons would not be published in most parts of the world.

    Few media outlets would print a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammad crouched on all fours with his genitals bared –

    – or show the Father – Son – and Holy Ghost sodomizing each other.

    For that matter most will balk at a cartoon like the one Onion put out showing a Lord Ganesha – Jesus – Moses – and Buddha –

    – all naked with erect phalluses having an orgy in the clouds?

    Now – that’s being equal opportunity offenders –

    – but that remains way outside the pale for most of the world..”

    (cont..)

    • In reality – some of Charlie Hebdo’s most offensive cartoons would not be published in most parts of the world.

      So? Most parts of the world don’t trouble themselves to allow freedom of speech, and many explicitly prohibit it. That’s not a good thing.

      • phillip ure 2.1.1

        “.. a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammad crouched on all fours with his genitals bared –..”

        so that is ‘free-speech’ to you..eh..?

        ..and try going to thailand and preaching republicanism..

        ..u really do put the ‘simple’ in simplistic-thinking..don’t you..?..

        • Psycho Milt 2.1.1.1

          so that is ‘free-speech’ to you..eh..?

          Er, yes. I’m kind of surprised you’re struggling with that one.

          ..and try going to thailand and preaching republicanism..

          Well, yes. Many places don’t bother with freedom of speech. My point exactly. But you don’t sound like you think you’re agreeing with me – have you misunderstood my comment?

      • Murray Rawshark 2.1.2

        France also does not allow freedom of speech. They prohibit various things, and even require that, in some cases, speech be in the French language. For example, Charlie Hebdo would have been prohibited from publishing cartoons that denied the Holocaust.

  3. Saarbo 3

    Up to now the Nats/Key government has been relying on Dairy for our great economic saviour, but the free market bible “The Economist” has an interesting article on commodities, seems that Key/Nats arnt the only clowns left with egg all over their face:

    COMMODITIES are sirens: alluring, yet dangerous. When prices are high, politicians in commodity-exporting countries rejoice. Proceeds from the export of oil, gas and metals fill state coffers. Foreign cash floods in and well-paid jobs are created. Such countries’ governments often neglect other parts of the economy, believing that the good times will never end. But they always do.

    http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21638197-why-some-commodity-exporters-are-coping-better-lower-prices-others-what-vlad-can-learn?fsrc=nlw|hig|8-01-2015|

    • weka 3.1

      Just read Dave Kennedy’s rather excellent post on food production in Southland and how ‘Neoliberal Economics Limits Food Choice in Southland’.

      http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.co.nz/2015/01/neoliberal-economics-limits-food-choice.html

      He includes a link about the UN report that says that we (globally) need to move to localised food production system for sustainability reasons. This is largely aimed at food security and AGW migitagation, but it makes sense economically as well, because it creates resiliency rather than relying on one or two large monolitihic sources of income (dairy, tourism).

      Intro in the report,

      “​Farming in rich and poor nations alike should shift from monoculture towards greater varieties of crops, reduced use of fertilizers and other inputs, greater support for small-scale farmers, and more locally focused production and consumption of food, a new UNCTAD report recommends.”

      http://unctad.org/en/pages/PressRelease.aspx?OriginalVersionID=154

      • weka 3.1.1

        The report emphasizes that a shift is necessary towards diverse production patterns that reflect the “multi-functionality” of agriculture and enhance closed nutrient cycles. Moreover, as the environmental costs of industrial agriculture are largely not accounted for, governments should act to ensure that more food is grown where it is needed. It recommends adjusting trade rules to encourage “as much regionalized/localized food production as possible; as much traded food as necessary.”

        The past strategy of relying on international markets to meet staple food demand, while specializing in the production and export of “lucrative” cash crops, has recently failed to deliver its desired results, because it has relied on low staple food prices and no shortage of supply in international markets, conditions that have drastically changed since the turn of the century, the report notes. Also, globalization has encouraged high levels of specialization. This has resulted in an increasing scale of production of a smaller variety of crops, and has created enormous cost pressures, the report states. All this has aggravated the environmental crisis of agriculture and has reduced agricultural resilience.

  4. joe90 4

    Europe’s Muslim tide hysteria visualised.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B63_50aCQAAZ0JS.png:large

    • RedLogix 4.1

      Yes and the fascinating thing is the difference between the public’s general perception – and reality.

      Next question – why?

    • that’s a good info..

      ..i’ve nicked it 4 whoar..

    • weka 4.3

      7% isn’t an insignificant proportion of the population. What’s probably more significant though is the rate it’s rising relative to other ethnicities in France.

    • Murray Rawshark 4.4

      Wow. The Hungarians overestimate the proportion by 70 times. That’s some pathological thought process happening there. I wonder how it gets so outrageously wrong?

      Thanks for that.

  5. Halfcrown 5

    TS appears to be extreeeemly slow the last two days. Is it me or the standard?

  6. disturbed 6

    Good one Saarbo & Weka,

    Not only is the Government’s rock star economy screeching to a halt with Dairy prices crumbling, but with the price of other commodities dropping such as the price of petrol and diesel also falling almost 50% the tax revenue Key made from increasing fuel taxes has also taken a big hit, so milking the fuel taxes for other pet pork barrel politics projects is now in jeopardy.
    As for the housing boom, this is a unbalanced housing boom with over 70% of the building consents and house price increases only occurring in Auckland and Christchurch so where is this rock star economy now Mr Key?

    More smoke and mirrors are needed for your propaganda machinery again?

  7. weka 7

    A cartoonist’s thoughtful response to the mass murder in France,

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/jan/09/joe-sacco-on-satire-a-response-to-the-attacks

    “In fact when we draw a line, we are often crossing one too. Because lines on paper are a weapon, and satire is meant to cut to the bone. But whose bone? What exactly is the target?

    And why?”

    • Bill 7.1

      Way I see it is fairly simple. I have absolute carte blanche to mercilessly rip the piss on the following grounds…. Scottishness, Christianity, politics… (there are others).

      But I become a bigot or some-such if I rip the piss out of Irishness, Islam etc.

      If a Muslim wants to ‘push the envelope’ by depicting Muhammad for example, then fine. But it’s just not okay for a non-Muslim.

      Anyway here’s a thing, if the target is stupidity or religion or power, there are a million and one different ways to do that that are not in any way ‘phobic’ or ‘ist’. The cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo, then, were, from the images I’ve seen, basically lazy and arrogant.

      • RedLogix 7.1.1

        There’s a lot in that argument.

        Billy T James made a career of sometimes not too gently taking the piss out of his own people, and then went on to transcend that cultural pigeon-hole with some of the most inspired comedic roles this country has ever seen.

        Sometimes it works, but then it tips over into you the ‘self-hating (insert cultural stereotype xxx)’ response. Probably it is the perceived motive (however coded) that counts.

        We generally don’t mind it when we (or someone in our in-group) takes the piss because it’s assumed their motives are ok. But watch for sparks when it’s a perceived outsider – the hackles raise instinctively because we assume it’s a threat.

        Personally I think we get way too attached to the sets of social habits and beliefs we call culture and religion – and this stops us from taking a bit of hard look from time to time. Because outsiders do see things we are blind to.

        • marty mars 7.1.1.1

          and what do you call it when you take the piss out of groups you are not in, especially when those groups you are taking the piss out of are disadvantaged in society? What is that called red?

    • Colonial Rawshark 7.2

      Sacco is a great cartoonist and graphic novelist. And an excellent journalist.

    • Murray Rawshark 7.3

      I agree with what he’s saying, at least as I interpret it. He’ll probably get death threats 🙁

    • Anne 7.4

      Thanks for the cartoon weka.

      When the story broke, my reaction was one of shock and anger. I lashed out at PG for responding early with his usual derailing tactic on karol’s post – having promised myself I wouldn’t do it again. But since then I’ve been trying to put the tragic events into proper perspective with not much success. That cartoon has done it for me.

  8. gsays 8

    i had a conversation with a friend last night after he had gone to a seminar about soil science.
    he said that scientists in the states are finding traces glysophates in both human umbilical cords and in semen.

    i found this article:

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/04/22/glyphosate-herbicide

    from the article.
    “As Drs. Seneff and Samsel reveal in a recent study5 at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, glyphosate is probably the most harmful toxin we’ve ever encountered, both in our environment and on our dinner plates. Their findings show that two of the key problems caused by glyphosate in your body are nutritional deficiencies and systemic toxicity. The researchers propose that glyphosate is the most significant causal factor in today’s epidemic of gluten intolerance, including full-blown celiac disease.”

    it was not so long ago we were all being told that after 15 mins this poison was inert and harmless.
    what is in our mass produced food?
    who are the people in aotearoa who are our safeguards?

    i will take my malformed carrots, and undersized cabbages anyday.

  9. joe90 9

    #JesuisAhmed

    Dyab Abou Jahjah ‏@Aboujahjah

    I am not Charlie, I am Ahmed the dead cop. Charlie ridiculed my faith and culture and I died defending his right to do so. #JesuisAhmed

    • McFlock 9.1

      Fuck yes. That beautifully states what. gave me a niggling discomfort about all the je suis charlie signs.

  10. “the reality that the left wing blogs are in no way just the same as the right wing blogs”

    From Micky’s post that quote – pity that the way women are treated is similar – sexist slurs, misogyny, passive aggressive – not by all but far too many, fucken way far too many.

    • karol 10.1

      Agree, mm. It’s why I rarely go to those blogs.

      • marty mars 10.1.1

        it is here too karol and imo it needs to be fucken sorted out!!!

        • mickysavage 10.1.1.1

          On occasions discussions spiral out of control here and it has been doing my head in. I used to pile into PG like others but a while ago I reflected on it and I don’t think I have done anything of the sort for perhaps a couple of years. I can understand RL’s frustration.

          • weka 10.1.1.1.1

            It’s not just about PG though. The endless offtopic bickering at the same time as PG tips at the same time as the site being smaller because of the holidays, well it’s all a bad mix.

            Individual actions by commenters don’t really solve the problem. What’s happening now is that some people (like yourself micky) are engaging with PG as if he isn’t troling, and lots of other people engage as if he is troling. Others are just staying away. So there is a weird chaos with no collective agreement on what should be done. I do know from long experience in online communities that having a go at the people who have reached the no tolerance point for troling will either up the ante or drive people offsite (not the troles though).

            You and karol and Red have choices here that others don’t (although I’m loathe to actually point this out given Red basically called me a slut in the middle of a trolefest). The power is with the ts authors and admin.

            I’d also like to point out the difference between content (PG makes a post that has allegedly discussable points in it) and behaviour (PG pretty much always descends into trole behaviour). That difference is crucial.

            • RedLogix 10.1.1.1.1.1

              I’m loath to point out the obvious here.

              You didn’t like it when I word-played trole into trollope. Fine. Now what makes your feelings any more privileged than PG’s?

              Fact is PG is a very, very effective blogger. He’s finely honed the art of getting attention and making threads all about himself. Although it’s often as a substitute for a decent argument, I actually quite admire the technique – because all the usual defenses against the dark trole arts don’t work on him. Cool eh?

              • own up to your shit mate – you wrote what you wrote – your meaning was abundantly clear

                • RedLogix

                  If had wanted to be ‘abundantly clear’ I would have used the precise word slut. But I did not.

                  Trollope (with a superflous ‘e’ on the end) is a made up word that is clearly a word play on ‘trole’ – ie a feminine case.

                  Yes it had a bit of a barb in it. It was meant to. A matau without one is useless.

                  • you didn’t use it but you meant it thus your meaning was abundantly clear but sure go the pg way seeing as how you admire him so much lol

                    • RedLogix

                      I said I admired the technique.

                      Just like you can admire a warriors handling of a taiaha – while being simultaneously discomforted by his intention to disembowel you.

                    • your analogies with another culture show your ignorance

                    • RedLogix

                      OK so which cultural analogies am I allowed ? Do you have a list of the ones you deem I am competent to use?

                      Maybe I should have stuck to AK47 analogies.

                    • I going to be generous and assume that you were reaching out for shared understanding rather than putting the boot in – I really hope I’m correct and if so sorry for being pedantic – I’m feeling a bit bruised by all this today – I’m going to the beach with my whānau.

                  • The Al1en

                    “Trollope (with a superflous ‘e’ on the end) is a made up word that is clearly a word play on ‘trole’ – ie a feminine case.”

                    That’s the way I read it, and it made me chuckle

                  • Rawsharkosaurus

                    Not exactly made-up – it’s the name of a 19th-century author and I’ve seen wordplay of that nature in the past.

              • weka

                Red, if you want to have a go at me over my behaviour on ts in regards to PG, then go for it. But don’t expect to call me a slut and get any kind of respect or respectful response about the troling issue.

                Ditto making a smart arse trole bait comment to a Māori man that focussed on his ethnicity.

                One of the reasons why I’ve perservered with ts is that despite it not always being the safest place for women to comment (and from what I can tell likewise for Māori), it’s always had some bottom lines re misogny and racism directed at commenters.

                You’ve called a woman a slut and followed that up by telling the woman you’ve called a slut that this is about her not ‘liking’ the comment. This completely denies the political realities for women commenting on male-dominated left wing political blogs.

                You’ve just taken ts to a new low. That you are also someone with moderation power here makes this unconscionable.

                • RedLogix

                  Yeah you can dish it out alright …

                  Do you have a single instance of me using moderation against you?

                  • care to try and answer weka’s points or is that too hard for you what with all the mirrors being smashed in your abode and all

                    • RedLogix

                      I did make a concise response. weka has compiled and dished out a nice big fat grievance against me, all from one little semi-made up word. Not only did the bait get taken, the fish is determined to leap on board and eat the fisherman. In the meantime the whale swims off.

                      What is more – weka is perfectly entitled and privileged here to keep on doing so as long as she likes, while at the same time claiming this a male-dominated space in which she feels unsafe. I cannot change how she feels, but given her very long track record here of robust and excellent contributions I’m surprised really.

                      She can even keep on implying that I will misuse moderation to tilt the power imbalance in the discussion – without any justification whatsoever. No problemo.

                    • The Al1en

                      “She can even keep on implying that I will misuse moderation to tilt the power imbalance in the discussion – without any justification whatsoever. No problemo.”

                      She’s just looking for a scalp RL. Can’t get admin to ban pg like she’s been trying to for the last month, so guess you’ll have to do.

                      [RL: Deleted. Too far. weka and I tend to cross swords, but not like that.]

                    • allen the creep living up to his name

                      red “one little semi-made up word” – are there any terms or insults that really upset you when you are called them? Preferably from someone or a group that holds more power than you which I admit may be hard to find.

                    • weka

                      “She can even keep on implying that I will misuse moderation to tilt the power imbalance in the discussion”

                      I haven’t implied that, and have already stated that. You’ve assumed that from my comment, but haven’t bothered to check it out. What I meant was that the moderators ultimately control the culture here and you’ve just lowered the standard of what is acceptable behaviour, because of your power as a moderator/author. Nothing to do with whether I think you will moderate my own comments or not (if I was worried about being unfairly moderated by you, I wouldn’t be having this conversation).

                      “I cannot change how she feels, but given her very long track record here of robust and excellent contributions I’m surprised really.”

                      I don’t know if you can change how I feel or not, but you could pay attention to people when they say they don’t feel safe. I am by no means the only person who has talked about this, so it’s not like you just have to take my word for it. I am saying this to you as part of the ts team.

                      That there isn’t even a basic level of trust here, that when I talk about the politics of safey on ts you feel the need to disbelieve me because I am sometimes robust and articulate, this is a perfect example of why this isn’t a particularly safe place. Now, that might be ok, ts admin might decide that this is a price worth paying to run the site the way it is. Fair enough. But that doesn’t mean the safey issue isn’t real.

                      But that’s all by the by really. The point I was making is that a ts author and moderator thinks it’s ok to call a woman a slut, and to have a go a Māori man via his ethnicity. I don’t think I’ve seen that here before. I might have missed it, but it’s certainly rare if it does happen. There’s obviously the issue of what hat a commenter might have on at any one time, but I think when the conversation is about troling while troling is actually going on right then, then any ts author/moderator making comments that look like trole bait, there is a very mixed message to say the least.

                      At some point I guess someone from admin will tell me to step back from commenting on ts moderators. I’m happy enough to stop this conversation.

                    • RedLogix

                      Yes marty.

                      Within the last year I was very publicly yelled at and humiliated by someone with considerably more institutional power than me. And they were completely and utterly in the wrong.

                      However their outburst was not without cause – and I kept focus on that, while retaining what little dignity I had left. Overreacting myself would have been disastrous.

                      When you look at me as white, male, and well-employed you perceive a cultural privilege gap. Yes it is real and it exists – but ask most men in my position and they too can point to their own experiences of powerlessness.

                      They are very pervasive in our lives. We just don’t talk about them much.

                    • RedLogix

                      @weka

                      That there isn’t even a basic level of trust here, that when I talk about the politics of safey on ts you feel the need to disbelieve me because I am sometimes robust and articulate, this is a perfect example of why this isn’t a particularly safe place.

                      Safety is a subjective experience. We cannot make TS a ‘safe’ place for everyone without completely painting the place PG Tips Pearl Lustre. We moderate out the worst excesses and then trust people to work through the rest of it for themselves. Like we are now.

                      But the thing I really find unsafe is when groups of commenters blatantly line up to bully someone into silence.

                      The point I was making is that a ts author and moderator thinks it’s ok to call a woman a slut

                      Where? You assumed the word ‘trollope’ meant that, when I have clearly explained it was something different and more nuanced.

                      Just as I assumed you were implying that I was going to misuse moderation – when clearly you have explained otherwise.

                    • weka

                      I’m not suggesting that ts admin try and make ts safe for anyone. But that doesn’t mean the safey issues aren’t real, and because this is a fairly blokey and white place it’s reasonable to assume that the needs of women and non-white people aren’t getting met in the same way as if the place were more diverse. This is true around disability as well. In other words, there is room for improvement without even having to think about absoluted like making it safe for everyone.

                      “But the thing I really find unsafe is when groups of commenters blatantly line up to bully someone into silence.”

                      My suggestion is that put your moderator hat on. If you have not made the trollope comment, and has instead bolded to people to back off, this whole thread would have gone differently. I’m not blaming you for what happened, but you do have power in this that others don’t.

                      (edit: or you could have talked to me down thread about my behaviour, without even having to put a ts hat on. One of the reasons I feel comfortable about myself here is that I constantly look at my own behaviour and question what I am doing. If anyone wants to call me on what I am doing, I am open to that so long as it’s done reasonably respectfully (so that rules out The Al1en’s ongoing barbs, and your isolated one today).)

                      “Where? You assumed the word ‘trollope’ meant that, when I have clearly explained it was something quite different and more nuanced.”

                      Do you mean that you are unaware that many people would read trollope as a misspelling of trollop? Obviously there was a pun on the word’s association with ‘trole’, but equally obviously there is a connection with the word trolop.

                      I think context is particularly pertinent here. You were basically engaging in trolebaiting. You might possibly have got away with making a pun about trollops in another context, but not in a comment that was by your own admission barbed. The you followed up with the barb to the Brown Knight. You can say that I am overreacting, but that just takes us back to the politics of the situation.

                    • RedLogix

                      I think context is particularly pertinent here. You were basically engaging in trolebaiting.

                      And a whole string of rolleyes is not?

                      Neither you nor marty are children. You are both articulate and powerful people in your own right. You dish it out just fine when it suits you both.

                      Yes this is a blokey place. Yes blokes make giving each other shit a way of life – but if you want to lecture me about safety, you need to pay a little attention to what is a real threat or not.

                      You have most emphatically objected to one small wordplay which has pressed your buttons. I get it. I did it deliberately to get your attention.

                      Now consider how the victim feels when bunches of commenters line up to scorn, mock and generally dump on someone they don’t like. It’s called group bullying (or mobbing) and I’m telling you plain and clear it’s not acceptable.

                      And I will continue to make a point of this.

                      PS: You are right that I could have moderated directly with better effect. Believe it or not – most moderation is done with a lot of reluctance.

                    • weka

                      “And a whole string of rolleyes is not?”

                      I don’t think so. It’s a pretty well known technique across the internet for responding to troles when nothing else works. In fact it’s a technique use to not engage in troling. It’s also a technique suggested by one of the othe ts authors recently.

                      My other option is to not comment at all. But all that does is support PG to do whatever he likes here. I’d argue that it’s both the trole blocking and the people calling him on his content that is pushing PG to alter his behaviour. I don’t know how successful that will be without moderation, nor what impact this will have on ts. It’s not a particularly pleasant place to be currently, but that may settle down now that the pu/TA axis is dismantled.

                      Neither you nor marty are children. You are both articulate and powerful people in your own right. You dish it out just fine when it suits you both.

                      Yes this is a blokey place. Yes blokes make giving each other shit a way of life – but if you want to lecture me about safety, you need to pay a little attention to what is a real threat or not.

                      Well, again, you’ve just made the mistake of assuming that because I can be robust that that somehow means my comments about safety are less valid. That’s bullshit.

                      (as an aside, I’m not sure that the blokeyness, giving each other shit thing is what makes the place less safe).

                      I think you are also implying that the safety issues I am referring to aren’t real, but the one’s you are referring to are. That’s a conversation for another day, but I will say two things. One is that there’s been no clarification of what I mean by safety, so you’re not in a position to judge yet. The other is that the people who get to define what is safe are the people affected and their politicised allies. I’m perfectly willing to look at the issue you raise (see below), but I’m calling you on the fact that you repeatedly deny the validity of me talking about safety.

                      “You have most emphatically objected to one small wordplay which has pressed your buttons. I get it. I did it deliberately to get your attention.”

                      Yes, but again, you didn’t have to use a sexist slur, and you didn’t have to use a barb. You could just have talked to me. I’m really open to that. Which begs the question of why you chose the path you did into this conversation.

                      “Now consider how the victim feels when bunches of commenters line up to scorn, mock and generally dump on someone they don’t like. It’s called group bullying and I’m telling you plain and clear it’s not acceptable.”

                      It’s not about not ‘liking’ Pete. There are other people here I don’t like, but I tend to focus on the content of their comments (been slipping a bit lately I guess). I don’t believe PG is a victim here.

                      I do agree with your general principle about bullying but I’m not convinced that is happening here. I certainly don’t believe that there is any ganging up on Pete (for it to be a gang, people would be organising and apart from Stephanie’s suggestion about the smilies I haven’t seen an serious attempt to initiate a collective action against Pete. In fact, if you go back and look, when someone suggested a collective strategy to get Pete banned, I commented against the idea).

                      I’ve seen this dynamic over and over and over again in online communities. You get an arch trole, and then when that carries on too long people get so sick of it that they form into rough groups with similar tactics (usually determined by temperament and philosophy). This might look like people ganging up on someone weak, but it’s usually just people spontaneously allying with something that brings relief.

                      So here on ts you have the following in response to PG tips:

                      1. people who are avoiding the place entirely.

                      2. the scrollers.

                      3. the rolleyesers/dnfters.

                      4. the engage respectfully to elicit change brigage.

                      5. the call a trole a trole brigade.

                      6. the aggressive tear the content apart brigade.

                      7. the trole in return brigade.

                      I move between the first six, with a special emphasis on 5. I sometimes tread a fine line between 5/6, and 7, but I don’t intentionally do 7 and I often write comments and then edit them back before I post so that I’m not straying over the line. Usually where I have written something I consider cruel and therefore unnecessary.

                      But here’s the thing. Every group I have ever been in has required adjustment of behaviour from the people involved. Often that’s subtle and inconsequential. Other times it’s in your face and can sometimes feel brutal. Occasionally it gets serious. My own approach is that I am entering a specific culture and if I want to spend time there I need to take responsibility for my actions and how they affect my ability to be there (when in Rome).

                      It took me a while to learn what ts was about. More recently I started on twitter and got myself into an unpleasant situation because I was new and hadn’t figured out how things work (still haven’t to be honest. After 15 years in online communities twitter has me stumped). So I backed off and paid attention and thought about what I was doing and what I wanted from being there.

                      As far as I can tell, Pete believes he can do whatever he wants here, and he takes a pleasure in his standing his ground on this. He appears to not care about how the place works, or worse, thinks his behaviour is going to make it a better place. That’s fine, but there are consequences and he’s wearing them.

                      “PS: You are right that I could have moderated directly with better effect. Believe it or not – most moderation is done with a lot of reluctance.”

                      Yes, my own opinion is that moderation on ts is too light.

                      Sorry that’s been so long. To recap, I’m open to being called on my own behaviour, but won’t engage where it’s barbed.

                    • RedLogix

                      Well, again, you’ve just made the mistake of assuming that because I can be robust that that somehow means my comments about safety are less valid. That’s bullshit.

                      I’ll keep this short. Other people are going to judge what you find acceptable by your own behaviour. You tell people to fuck off and use robust language, you engage in mobbing or trole behaviour – you get to suck it up when similar is handed back to you.

                  • weka

                    “Yeah you can dish it out alright …”

                    Ok, so I’ll take it then that this is personal for you, and probably the slut comment was too.

                    “Do you have a single instance of me using moderation against you?

                    That doesn’t have anything to do with what I just said.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      For fucks sake weka, I’ve just done a search of OM today and do you know what? You are the only person using the word SLUT over and over and over again.

                      For a word you despise so much you seem to love throwing it up in peoples faces.

                      Offence was given – I don’t think any was meant by RL however, but understandably you did take it, so ask for an apology, and move on.

                    • weka

                      This isn’t about offence for me.

                      I don’t have any inherent objection to the word slut itself.

                    • Colonial Rawshark

                      So there’s no offence to you so no apology is being sought by you; you say you have no problem with the word slut being used, but then now there is also no way to retrieve the situation?

                      So we will just get more indignant repetitions of the word “slut” from you over the next few hours in various contexts? I think you’re up to eight or nine now.

                    • weka

                      I don’t know if an apology is needed or not (there are probably other things to apologise for other than offence). I haven’t asked for an apology, you brought that up. I’m ok with the discussion Red and I are now having.

                      you say you have no problem with the word slut being used, but then now there is also no way to retrieve the situation?

                      The okayness of the word slut depends on context, who is using it and why. Not sure what you mean about retrieving the situation.

                      “So we will just get more indignant repetitions of the word “slut” from you over the next few hours in various contexts? I think you’re up to eight or nine now.”

                      That really depends on other people I think. I doubt I will use the word in other contexts.

                      (I think I’m at about 7/13, but that’s because my comments were bit longwinded). What’s the exact problem with me saying slut so many times? (oops, 10/16)

                    • tricle up

                      Weka opposites within the negative point 2 scrollers at times I scroll ,I am genuinely here to learn and be educated but you can still put me in the total..

                • The Al1en

                  @ Karol

                  I’m respectfully seeking clarification.

                  You ruled that we should cease and desist above and put a comment of mine in moderation (which I’m fine with as rules are rules), but are these posts not a continuation of the same argument which you ruled on?

              • Pete George

                Except that I have no intention to “making threads all about himself”. Sure I deliberately try to provoke reactions and debate. I’ve done that today posting the same thing both here and on Kiwiblog. It’s interesting to see how different groups react to the same thing.

                What often happens here is that others try to turn it into “about me” so they can complain bitterly about me disrupting the threads and try to engineer my expulsion. The same tactic is also directed at others. They complain if I break ‘the rules’ and then they complain if I don’t break the rules (this has happened recently) so that ‘what should be done’ can be done.

                And when I come here briefly and then stay out it can create even more of an ‘about me’ disruption, including complaints about me not responding enough. Who wouldn’t want to poke fun at this?

                So there is a weird chaos with no collective agreement on what should be done.

                Who wants a collective agreement on whatever you think should be done weka? Does that mean you want everyone to agree with what you want to be done (whatever that is)?

                • weka

                  You can fuck right off with your disingenuous, troling questions.

                  So here’s the example. If PG wasn’t troling just then, he would have asked me directly what I meant about the collective agreement. He wouldn’t even have to do that politely. But he didn’t. Instead he took what I said and twisted it to make out that I think everyone should agree with me. He asked his questions in a passive agressive way that really have no way of being answered other than getting sucked into the beige hole. That is all classic PG tips troling.

                  Now, some might argue that I’m rude or aggressive in my comments at times, and they wouldn’t get an argument from me on that. And there are times when I overstep the mark according to my own values. But I’d like to see someone make an argument, backed up with evidence from comments, that I act as a trole on ts, and that I’ve been doing this consistently over time to the point where many people are at the point of extreme frustration with my behaviour. And make sure that the argument is about my behaviour not the content of my comments.

                  If you can’t do that, then fuck off with comparing me, or anyone else here for that matter, to PG.

                  • Pete George

                    I don’t think your behaviour does you any favours at times, while at other times you post some very interesting and worthwhile stuff.

                    “But I’d like to see someone make an argument, backed up with evidence from comments, that I act as a trole on ts,”

                    That depends on how you define ‘trole’. It’s a widely used term.

                    Some use it with some specific description in mind. Some use it as a just another abusive term. Some use it to label someone as ‘not welcome’. Some use it to try and stir up a group diss.

                    I don’t know what your definition is.

                    • weka

                      Fuck off Pete. I’ve been really clear over a long period of time what my definition of troling is, specifically in response to your troling.

                      Lots of other people have too.

                      Saying it depends on how it’s defined is just you trying to suck the conversation into the beige hole. Again.

                    • Pete George

                      It often comes across as simply a term of intolerance.

                    • weka

                      That’s probably because you’re stuck in your ‘I’ve got a right to be here how I am at any cost’ thing and you aren’t looking at the explanations people are giving about your behaviour and how it affects the site. Frankly it comes across as incredibly self-centred. Of course I am intolerant of that.

                      You can look at how often I call people on ts a trole. It’s not common despite the fact that I disgree with lots of people and even fight with them. Mostly I am intolerant of behaviour that affects the community badly (have reached my limit with the pu/TA thing too). I also look at my own behaviour esp in situations like this.

                      (of course you bringing up intolerance at this point is another of your tactics where you take a principle someone was talking about a few days earlier and try and use it against them 🙄 ).

              • McFlock

                Regarding your last paragraph, in my opinion an “effective blogger” writes a comment or post with new information or opinions that many people find interesting and engaging.enough to take part in a constructive discussion. Your description, though descriptive of Pete, strikes me as. Being more like a t-word

            • Murray Rawshark 10.1.1.1.1.2

              I thought trollope was a stupid and inappropriate word to use. It brings hints of promiscuity. I didn’t think it was clever wordplay.

              However, what worries me even more is that the power imbalance between moderators and commenters is not being acknowledged. I find that almost unbelievable in a blog that is partly left wing. We all need to get this sorted out before irreparable damage is done.

              • RedLogix

                While at the same time you are perfectly ok with people you approve of engaging in all the same disruptive behaviours. It’s a hopelessly hypocritical position to be taking.

                I thought trollope was a stupid and inappropriate word to use. It brings hints of promiscuity

                That’s just your sex-obsessed mind at work. Never said it was clever, just a little barbed and pointed – and look at the gibbering overreaction. Turns out like so many playing at hypocrite and bully, when they get just a tiny amount of it served back to them, the bloody world caves in on them.

                As for this misuse of moderation crap. Unless you can point to any kind of pattern of actual misuse, as distinct from overheated imaginings – you are absolutely off the reservation. If anything – the whole nonsense started because I didn’t moderate.

                The real damage being done here is by little cliques of commenters mobbing right-wingers (or people they’ve decided they don’t like) with blocks of sneering, mocking and frequently abusive responses that are designed to humiliate and silence. That is behaviour which is plain and blatant – and there’s been too much here, of it for any sort of blog.

                • karol

                  RL. I do think there is too much animosity between a small number of commenters, who have been too dominant of late.

                  I don’t think you’ve helped on open mike today. You have added to the animosity, and undermined my attempt early on to moderate and stop it spiraling and continuing for yet another day.

                  My moderating comments early on weren’t in any way aimed at PG or right wingers – they were pretty much focused on the (left wingers) who jumped in under PG’s comment.

                  This leaves me in a quandary, because you are a more experienced moderator.

                  Your weak ‘trolope’ pun was inflammatory, and part of the meaning it plays on is misogynist. You posted the word with no explanation – it did look like a pretty nasty slap to me. If you weren’t also a moderator, I would have moderated your comments way back, along with Al1en’s.

                  And I agree with Murray that there is a power imbalance – not just between commenters and moderators, but between a more experienced moderator and a less experienced author who sometimes moderates.

                  • RedLogix

                    Yes it was meant as a somewhat pointed little barb. But guess what – it was one word among thousands of other words of crap we’ve had to wade through recently.

                    Now in hindsight it may well have been better to have just moderated directly – but then again you know how hard it is to strike a balance between effectively intervening and coming off as a school hall monitor. In reality as I’ve said above most of us tend to err very much on the side of NOT moderating when maybe we should have.

                    If you see it as a nasty slap – then put yourself in the shoes of PG (and a few others) who have been on the receiving end of shit loads worse the last few months. While this is a left-wing site, and right-wingers will naturally face a bit of a head wind, the one thing we really cannot do as moderators is play blatant favourites. Bad behaviour isn’t acceptable no matter the politics of person doing it. Or even if we like and respect that person.

                    And yes there is a power imbalance between moderators and others. It exists for a reason. If anyone can demonstrate clearly a pattern of misuse then I will pay attention. Otherwise it’s just coming across as a sly way of trying to silence me. Not buying into it.

                    Having said all that – my sincere apologies for undermining your efforts to moderate matters. No excuses.

                    • karol

                      Thank-you for the apology re-my moderating. Accepted.

                      I think your response on open mike has been quite partisan. My attempt at moderating was to be more even handed.

                      You continue to fail to understand the difference between attacking someone for their style of arguing and the offensiveness of a misogynistic word. they are not the same.

                      PG can be slippery in his arguments. He should be called on it.

                      Others have also spent too much time on personal attacks and counter-attacks.

                    • RedLogix

                      No – you don’t get to play the misogynistic word every time a woman doesn’t like something, or just plain gets the wrong end of the stick. That rates as another kind of power imbalance too.

                      Also keep on failing to understand my plain explanation of what I meant and why – that way everyone is sure to remain offended.

                      Yes I was one-sided. I’ve seen far too many instance of that sort of mobbing going one and in case you haven’t noticed – I really do not like it at all. Exactly as you don’t like words you feel are misogynistic.

                      As for PG. You know I’m thinking that the smartest thing lprent ever did recently was to rescind his ban. Why? Because we were getting far too complacent and too much of an echo chamber. PG does indeed have this remarkable, slippery way of stirring shit up.

                      And no-one has yet been able to figure out how to deal with it. As I said above – in pure blogging terms that makes him quite an interesting challenge.

                  • Murray Rawshark

                    Thanks for your voice of reason, karol. It is needed at this time.

                • weka

                  Red at 6:58

                  Ok, so you think I am a trole and a bully. I at least have had the decency to explain very clearly in PG’s presence what I find problematic with his behaviour, citing specific comments as that was relevant, so that if he wanted to he could know what I was on about. I’m hoping you will do me the courtesy of the same.

                  The real damage being done here is by little cliques of commenters mobbing right-wingers (or people they’ve decided they don’t like) with blocks of sneering, mocking and frequently abusive responses that are designed to humiliate and silence. That is behaviour which is plain and blatant – and there’s been too much here, of it for any sort of blog.

                  Can you please name the cliques?

                  I tend to agree with your statement (probably not the cliques bit, but the sneering, mocking stuff). I agree there is too much of this behaviour. However I don’t believe giving people a smack down will solve this. The culture needs to change. Smack downs just perpetuate it.

                  • RedLogix

                    Ok, so you think I am a trole and a bully.

                    No. I carefully phrased it as ‘playing at’. I genuinely don’t believe that is your nature.

                    The cliques I see come and go ad-hoc depending on who is around and what the topic is. What is probably more accurate to say is that I’ve sensed an ugly trend of increasing incidents of mobbing behaviour that too many of us are getting sucked into.

                    At the time I was reacting to it for much the same reasons you reacted to the ‘trollope’ word. And it’s taken this long for me to unpack it properly.

                • Murray Rawshark

                  Nope. Where is your evidence that I approve of disruptive behaviours? On occasion I have tried to calm things down.

                  Trollette may have been clever. Don’t pretend the problem is with me. That’s just sad.

                  I never mentioned misuse of moderation. I mentioned the power imbalance. I’m stunned you can’t see the difference. Even as I wrote “Don’t pretend the problem is with me”, I was thinking whether that could be construed as telling a moderator what to do. On the other hand, you can happily label me as sex obsessed, knowing that there is no possible comeback on you.

                  Find one instance where I have joined “little cliques of commenters mobbing right-wingers (or people they’ve decided they don’t like) with blocks of sneering, mocking and frequently abusive responses that are designed to humiliate and silence” and I’ll leave as well. Mind you, you will need to get three other people to agree with your version. Given your replies above, I have serious doubts about your judgment.

                  • RedLogix

                    If you cannot recall that it was you who introduced the ‘promiscous’ red- herring – then whose judgement is problematic?

                    If you are sure that I included you specifically named you as participating in that mobbing – whose judgement is problematic again?

                    And if you are unaware of the amount of unpleasant aggro going on – and some of it directed very much at just a few individuals – whose talking about doubtful judgement?

                    And by making a clear personal stand on the matter, by appearing to defend individuals that a lot of people don’t like or want here – yet have a right to comment within the rules – I too have become a lightening rod for the same sneering mob mentality. Fully anticipated and understood.

                    Could have I handled it more adroitly? In hindsight yes. That’s my judgement for the time being. But I have zero regrets about confronting what was happening.

                    • Murray Rawshark

                      Nope. You’re still changing stuff. The association of trolope with slut had been noted long before I commented.

                      You said I approved of the mobbing. “While at the same time you are perfectly ok with people you approve of engaging in all the same disruptive behaviours.” I’d like to see your evidence for that. I categorically refute the accuracy of your statement.

                      “And if you are unaware of the amount of unpleasant aggro going on – and some of it directed very much at just a few individuals – whose talking about doubtful judgement?” Again making shit up. I have posted several times that I don’t like it. I don’t usually dislike things I’m unaware of.

                      I am not making sneering comments at you. I am making what are think are valid points. You called me sexually obsessed. Where is your evidence for that?

                      I try to make my point without personal attacks. Mostly I think I succeed. I got sick of alien’s stalking and maybe got too personal. I have gently suggested to PU a couple of times that he’s not doing himself any favours. With RWNJ troles I may be less than perfectly polite, but they’re only here to disrupt.

                      I remember vaguely arguing with you about something and maybe I called you a right winger. Or maybe I said your position on some topic was right wing. I really can’t remember. Was that enough to provoke your responses?

                      The way you are handling this minor episode makes me even more worried about the future of this blog. I hope many things change on here. I am not the enemy. I am an enthusiastic lefty whose views are a little to the left of most, but more importantly I am a militant for positive change in society. I think this blog has a part to play, but the last couple of weeks have left me a bit despondent.

                    • RedLogix

                      The association of trolope with slut had been noted long before I commented.

                      And my plain explanation of what I did intend was made long before as well. Why ignore that?

                      Question. Why do you think I would call weka a slut? Go on – I would really like to hear your reasoning.

                      I’d like to see your evidence for that. I categorically refute the accuracy of your statement

                      Initially I read your silence on that point (and that of most others) as a complicit or tacit approval. Fair enough if you want to categorically refute that – and I accept you word. As I would trust you accept mine.

                      The way you are handling this minor episode makes me even more worried about the future of this blog.

                      I can see how you feel caught in some cross-fire not of your making. I certainly did not have you personally in mind when this episode started. And I don’t now. I wasn’t taking names – but I accept you were not at all likely to be on the list so to speak.

                      But then I am a little baffled; you clearly disapprove of what was going on:

                      What I saw as food for thought, and found saddening, is that PG had almost as bad a reception here for his post. The details were different, but I basically agreed with what he said and saw no need to attack him.

                      And that is exactly what I was reacting to. At least three people all lining up – just to sneer or have a go. I don’t see that as a minor matter at all.

                    • Murray Rawshark

                      “And my plain explanation of what I did intend was made long before as well. Why ignore that?”

                      Because that was my impression when I first read it yesterday. I was a bit put out by it. I had no idea why you’d written it. Why didn’t you use trollette if you want to invent words that signify a female underbridge dweller? But none of this is about my feelings. It’s about TS and its role in making the world a better place. I think today’s arguments have set that back a bit.

                      I don’t join in many of the arguments here, especially the senseless ones, because I don’t want to give them any fuel. That in no way means I approve of them, quite the opposite. When I stepped in to gently suggest to alien that he was attacking someone in a ridiculous manner, it led to him stalking me for a week and writing absolute rubbish. He’s gone, although I suspect he’ll be back next time he gets a chip on his shoulder about something, and bad12 has gone, but I’m sure someone will take over.

                      I hope we can all sort this out.

    • Murray Rawshark 10.2

      I agree with you, mm. TS is being derailed for sport by a malignant and self-obsessed few. I suspect we’re thinking of the same people.

    • miravox 10.3

      +1 mm

  11. weka 11

    Ok, I’m going to step away from the computer for a while, but when you (ts collective) have one of your authors making misogynistic and racist trole bait comments it’s probably time to rethink what is going on in this community.

    • The lost sheep 11.1

      FFS yet another pathetic and juvenile descent into petty abuse and bickering.

      I might just gather up some prime samples of such behavior and post them on Whaleoil with a commentary highlighting them as proving the superiority of Right Wing Blogs.

      • greywarshark 11.1.1

        @ the lost sheep
        Oh please no on my knees. We would never hear the end of it from the oily l’etranger and I think it is due to go away soon. The experiment of giving the children the computer to play with is just about over. Some judgment is about to be applied and seems to be surfacing. It’s all been too much of a good thing, and the protagonists are likely to take a technicolour yawn and time out.

      • Murray Rawshark 11.1.2

        You are lost. Here we have discussions among each other, which sometimes degenerate a bit. Whalespew degenerates when whoever is writing for Slug Boy that day first logs in. Their topics become a mad scramble to see who can bring the worst racism and bigotry to the thread. Off you go, do your worst.

    • Karen 11.2

      Kia kaha Weka.
      I have always found your comments to be thoughtful and to the point and while I may not always agree with you, you are one of the contributors I always pause to read as I scroll through the comments.

      I have done a lot of fast scrolling and not stopping over the holiday period, thanks to the return of PG and the endless bickering between PU & TA . Hopefully it will get better soon.

      • weka 11.2.1

        Thank-you Karen 🙂

        Am thinking through my options about how to be here, so your comment is helpful and heartening.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 11.2.1.1

          You’ve made me think about the way I engage here too.

          • weka 11.2.1.1.1

            we might get to have some conversations about how we engage here at some point 🙂 In a general sense I mean.

            • emergency mike 11.2.1.1.1.1

              I also usually stop my scrolling when I see your handle weka, (unless it’s a PG thread, then I’m firmly in the scroll on by camp, sorry life’s just too short for that).

              You and CV were two of a very small number making sense in the recent massive Charlie Hebdo knee-jerk thread.

        • Murray Rawshark 11.2.1.2

          I hope you stay. You are not a trollette. I think you try hard to stay reasonable, even under provocation.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 11.2.2

        +1 Karen

        I also make a point of reading everything Weka says.

      • miravox 11.2.3

        +1 Karen. I very much appreciate weka’s perspectives.

  12. gsays 12

    but on a cheerier note..

    go the black caps!!

    a strong team, well coached, confident and an impressive record.
    perhaps comparable to the great teams with hadlee, wright, crowe(s), etc.

    i have to confess to being one of the crowd booing mike hesson with the way ross taylor was removed from the captaincy but i have to admit i was wrong.

    good luck gentlemen in the upcoming odi series against sri lanka, and for the world cup later this year.

    go the black caps!!

  13. Bill 13

    Q. Can you spot what’s missing?

    In a letter to the leaders of the five parties – the Conservatives, Labour, the Liberal Democrats, the UK Independence party (Ukip) and the Greens – the Digital Debate consortium says it is not bound by Ofcom rules and is therefore free to invite all five parties to take part in its debate.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jan/09/leaders-five-main-uk-parties-invited-digital-debate-general-election-30-march

    A. The UK’s third largest political party ain’t invited.

    • Draco T Bastard 13.1

      Although I’m sure that may of us do follow UK politics to some degree as what happens there has a tendency to happen here as well and vice versa but I’m pretty sure that most of us wouldn’t actually know what the UK’s third largest political party is.

  14. Nice analysis by Morgan of gareth morgan’s recent series of articles, which he is doing to promote his new book on the treaty.

    As one might be after solving the tax problem and the cat problem, the “Treaty problem” must seem small and simple in comparison. The New Zealand Herald – whose roster of writers on Māori issues appears to be two Pākehā men – has commissioned a four part series based on Morgan’s new book, Are We There Yet? The Future of the Treaty of Waitangi. But Morgan, certainly an impressive economist and publicist, is hardly a Treaty expert.

    http://mauistreet.blogspot.com.au/2015/01/gareth-morgan-and-pakeha-pathology.html

    • weka 14.1

      This would make a great guest post on ts (maybe next week though 😉

      • Jenny Kirk 14.1.1

        Agree 100%. Hope it comes up as a guest post because there is a great deal in how Gareth Morgan has written his articles which call for informed responses and more enlightenment on this issue than the “once over lightly” that GM has accorded it.

    • Murray Rawshark 14.2

      The more money a pakeha male has, the more he thinks it important to loudly proclaim his view on things. The less he knows about an issue, the louder the proclamations. Morgan should have listened quite a bit more before he put fingers to keyboard. He should think up some advice to give to pakeha, not to Tangata Whenua.

  15. This is the tweet

    “Muslim shooter = entire religion guilty

    Black shooter = entire race guilty

    White shooter = mentally troubled lone wolf”

    Good article here – http://mic.com/articles/107926/one-tweet-perfectly-sums-up-the-big-problem-with-how-we-talk-about-terrorism

  16. The Murphey 16

    Q. Do ‘terrorists’ wish to be identified ?

    Miraculously “their only mistake” was leaving identification at the scene

    Q. If the alleged were ‘known to French Intelligence Services” and we are informed had supposedly precision firearm training and combat skills why would they not have been picked up some point in the past ?

    • Miraculously “their only mistake” was leaving identification at the scene

      Well, everyone makes mistakes, even God’s avengers. And like most angry nut jobs on a killing spree, these guys weren’t exactly Mensa candidates. There’s also the question of whether the government really wants to say exactly how they were identified, for operational reasons.

      If the alleged were ‘known to French Intelligence Services” and we are informed had supposedly precision firearm training and combat skills why would they not have been picked up some point in the past ?

      “Picked up” in what way? One of them at least had served a prison term for terrorism-related offences, so certainly was picked up. However, western societies have this thing whereby the authorities aren’t allowed to detain people indefinitely without charge, and there is no charge on the French statute books for “political extremist has combat experience and knows how to use an automatic weapon.”

      • Colonial Rawshark 16.1.1

        Well I guess the answer must be to give the authorities even more encompassing and coercive security and surveillance powers.

      • Murray Rawshark 16.1.2

        Some western societies have this thing where they pick people up and detain them for long periods without charge, in places like Gitmo. I’d be surprised if France didn’t do something similar at times.

        In any case, indefinite detention without charge is not the only option. A bit more directed intelligence may have found that they had Kalashnikovs and they may have been picked up for gun offences. The emphasis on spying on the whole population is lazy and ineffective and means that the real dangers get missed, hidden in a sea of white noise. The same thing happened in Sydney.

        • Psycho Milt 16.1.2.1

          The idea that the unjustified communications surveillance of the entire population that’s going on is incompatible with targeted monitoring of known extremists is ludicrous. Communications trawling is an automated process, it isn’t hogging intelligence service resources. France has the problem that there are literally thousands of known extremists, and all of them will be going to significant trouble to prevent intelligence services knowing what they’re up to. That makes it a bit hard to know exactly what every single one of them is up to. Are you arguing for an expansion of the state’s surveillance capability?

          • Colonial Rawshark 16.1.2.1.1

            The idea that the unjustified communications surveillance of the entire population that’s going on is incompatible with targeted monitoring of known extremists is ludicrous. Communications trawling is an automated process, it isn’t hogging intelligence service resources.

            You clearly have no fucking idea. Why don’t you go read up on Glenn Greenwald’s write ups on the various intelligence programmes revealed by Ed Snowden, including the massive computing and data complexes being built, and then make the fatuous claim that collecting exobytes of citizens data isn’t hogging intelligence services resources.

            And if you actually listened to what Bill Binney has to say – one of the most senior whistleblowers out of the NSA – it’ll become clear to you that when you are trying to find a terrorist needle in a big haystack of data, the last thing you want to be doing is adding more useless and irrelevant haystacks of data.

            • Psycho Milt 16.1.2.1.1.1

              I have enough of an idea to know that computing resources are not easily overwhelmed if you have enough money to throw at it, and that when it comes to intelligence, human resource is way more important than IT resource. There is no reason to assume that mass communications surveillance, regardless of its merits (or rather the distinct lack of them) imposes very little restriction on the ability of intelligence services to monitor actual terrorists, because it’s an automated process involving computers, not humans. The fact that you’re very angry about something doesn’t entitle you to make stuff up about it.

              …when you are trying to find a terrorist needle in a big haystack of data, the last thing you want to be doing is adding more useless and irrelevant haystacks of data.

              On this subject, I do have a fucking idea – unlike, apparently, yourself. You’ve heard of Google, right? Now, have a think: is Google’s ability to find shit you’re looking for improved, or impeded, by increasing the number of websites it indexes? Do Google’s engineers perhaps shit themselves when they consider the awesome discovery problems created by increasing the size of the “haystack” you’re looking for a needle in, or are they chuffed at the prospect of additional material for their search algorithms to use for context? Take your time.

              • Agh. Should read:

                “There is no reason to assume that mass communications surveillance, regardless of its merits (or rather the distinct lack of them) imposes a significant restriction on the ability of intelligence services to monitor actual terrorists, because it’s an automated process involving computers, not humans.”

                • Colonial Rawshark

                  Mate, you’ve thought this through, I’ll give you that. But please excuse me if I take Bill Binney’s word over yours. He designed many of the technological concepts underlying the NSA’s mass communications capture systems.

                  Do Google’s engineers perhaps shit themselves when they consider the awesome discovery problems created by increasing the size of the “haystack” you’re looking for a needle in, or are they chuffed at the prospect of additional material for their search algorithms to use for context? Take your time.

                  This underlines the NSA’s “capture everything” philosophy. And Bill Binney speaks to your point directly:

                  if you go into a larger database, you get more data back no matter what the query is. It’s like making a query with Google. If you go in with a Google query you can get tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands or even a million returns. Well, there’s no way you can go through that, all of that, to see what you’re really interested in.

                  http://rt.com/news/nsa-whistleblower-mass-surveillance-398/

          • Murray Rawshark 16.1.2.1.2

            “The emphasis on spying on the whole population is lazy and ineffective and means that the real dangers get missed, hidden in a sea of white noise.”

            How do you see an argument for expansion of squirrel powers in that? Only in bad faith, I suspect. And what CV said.

            • RedLogix 16.1.2.1.2.1

              “Ubiquitous surveillance is one of the better known end-points of civilisation”
              Vernor Vinge

              But you avoid the obvious question. If these kinds of attack continue to escalate – or even if the msm manipulates the perception that they are – at some point the political demand for a response will become too great to ignore. What then?

              So far Australia and France have responded way better than the USA did with 911 – although to be fair the scale of the attacks was different.

              We’ve had decades of Western gross provocation in the Middle East – meaning that cookie is well and truly baked in. Even the attempt to withdraw from the situation – as from Iraq – has backfired spectacularly. So while it’s cheap to point the to the culpability of the West (and that of the Israel and the Saudi oil nexus) – pretending we can simply walk away and all will be sweet is not a realistic choice.

              Nor does the Islamic world have clean hands either. For decades fundamentalist extremists have systematically annihilated moderate voices on their own side – ensuring the inevitability of violent confrontation.

              Given these harsh realities – a little more than good intentions and well-meaning liberalism is going to be demanded from the left by way of a valid political response. History is very unkind to political figures who are subsequently labelled ‘appeasers’.

              • Colonial Rawshark

                Nor does the Islamic world have clean hands either. For decades fundamentalist extremists have systematically annihilated moderate voices on their own side – ensuring the inevitability of violent confrontation.

                The west has consistently trained, armed and funded those fundamentalist extremists (or allowed that to happen) for its own ends. Encouraging the flow of Islamic fighters into Afghanistan then supporting them in defeating the Soviets another example from the not too distant past.

                The support of the unimaginatively named “Free Syria Army” which included elements which eventually became ISIS, is a recent example of the same thing, this time targeted against Assad. The west has also supported the most corrupt, totalitarian and unpopular regimes throughout the middle east, again for its own ends (Egypt, Bahrain, Saddam’s Iraq, Shah of Iran, Saudi royal family etc).

                And look at Israel – a huge US beneficiary – who helped support the development of a smaller and more radical Hamas in order to undermine the dominance of Arafat’s Fatah. That little project really ran away on them.

                • RedLogix

                  You just KNOW that criticism of Israel is not allowed CV. Want I should moderate that out 🙂

                  Without taking away one tiny bit from the truth and extent of Western meddling in the Middle East ( or damn near everywhere else for that matter) – I’ve had enough up close and personal experience with Jewish, Christian and Moslem fanatics to know that at some level they were never going to be reconciled. That tolerance was never an option for them, nor was imposing it on them.

                  Only a very brave man would declare there will be never another great global catastrophe – the much hyped ‘clash of civilisations’ as it were. The left argues passionately about poverty, the environment, inequality and human rights. We defend the right of communities to organise and order their collective life with good government and a healthy public domain.

                  Yet we have this peculiar blind spot about the most neglected community of all – the one at most risk – the community of all humans. In the final analysis our national, cultural, religious and personal identities are only smaller matters that will inevitably take second place to a global loyalty we all utterly connected to and dependent on.

                  Only on that principle can the ungodly knot of human treachery and despair ever hope to be untangled.

              • Murray Rawshark

                Look at what I actually wrote.

                “A bit more directed intelligence may have found that they had Kalashnikovs and they may have been picked up for gun offences.”

                How is that appeasement? Thanks for all the straw.

                • Colonial Rawshark

                  Apparently they had an RPG on hand as well. I take it that’s against French firearms law.

                  • Murray Rawshark

                    Whereas their Google approach hid that information on page 307 of the search return, in amongst 4 million porn sites and 800,000 on rocket propulsion. Cops and squirrels always want more expensive shiny equipment along with the increased powers they continually get. Nobody else apart from big company CEOs are rewarded so much for doing their jobs so badly.

            • Psycho Milt 16.1.2.1.2.2

              How do you see an argument for expansion of squirrel powers in that?

              When it’s combined with this: “A bit more directed intelligence may have found that they had Kalashnikovs and they may have been picked up for gun offences.” You seem to be arguing that French intelligence hasn’t closely-enough monitored the huge number of Muslim extremists in France, and are putting the blame for this on them wasting effort on wholesale interception of communications. However, the wholesale interception of communications is an automated process that doesn’t significantly impede the activities of intelligence personnel, which in turn means the only way of closely monitoring all those Muslim extremists would be an increase in the capability of the French government to carry out that monitoring.

              • Colonial Rawshark

                Ridiculous and bad conclusions mate.

                You seem to be arguing that French intelligence hasn’t closely-enough monitored the huge number of Muslim extremists in France

                One of the perps had been inside prison on terrorism charges previously. I would assume only a few dozen French citizens fell into this confirmed high risk category. That’s not a “huge number” is it?

                As I have said in previous comments, the post mortem will reveal plenty of egg to go around the French surveillance, security and justice apparatus.

                • Pete George

                  I would assume only a few dozen French citizens fell into this confirmed high risk category. That’s not a “huge number” is it?

                  It’s risky making assertions and accusations based on assumptions.

                  According to Interior Ministry figures, nearly 400 French nationals are fighting with jihadist groups in Syria and Iraq, while several hundred more are thought to be preparing to leave. Around 200 have returned to France, where they are awaiting trial.

                  That doesn’t count associates, recruits, organisers, financiers etc etc.

                  “To find an attack of this scale you have to go back to the mid-1990s when France was subject to the first wave of Islamic terror in Europe. A wave of Islamic terror that presaged 9/11 and all that followed,” Gregory said.

                  Gregory says after the mid-90s the violence subdued.

                  But in recent years the terror threat has risen again. Europol statistics from last year show that there were more than 500 terrorism incidents across Europe, almost half in France and 40 percent of terrorism-related arrests were made in France.

                  That’s hundreds of actual incidents.

                  The post mortems may embarrass the French “surveillance, security and justice apparatus” but the size of the problem in France is huge and 100% prevention is impossible.

                  http://www.voanews.com/content/france-frequent-target-of-islamic-extremists-terrorrism/2590741.html

                • One Anonymous Bloke

                  CR or it might simply demonstrate (again) that surveillance doesn’t work, and that the solutions are to be found outside of the surveillance, security and justice apparatus.

                  If they have egg on their faces, that means you think there must be a way to police “future-crime” and they need to lift their game, no?

              • Murray Rawshark

                I can’t follow your logic at all, and I doubt that there huge numbers of French Muslims extreme enough to commit these sort of acts.

  17. Deleting the standard link from my browser and unlike some, when I say I’m going I mean it.

    Too many on the extremes of politics and society in general dictating what is and what isn’t acceptable by the majority.
    You aren’t the reason the left doesn’t win elections any more, but then you aren’t going to be the reason for them to start winning them again.

    A bunch of young one’s Riks, staunch ultras for the sake of appearing right on comradeski for the clique. I shit you out ever day – Like muesli just with a lot more flakes and nuts. 🙂

    Don’t forget, buy the records and feed our people for free 😉

    Now fuck off 😆

    • weka 17.1

      To be honest, with such judgemental, barbed and demeaning comments as that I’m glad you are taking a break.

    • Draco T Bastard 17.2

      A bunch of young one’s Riks, staunch ultras for the sake of appearing right on comradeski for the clique. I shit you out ever day – Like muesli just with a lot more flakes and nuts.

      Obviously not else you wouldn’t be running away and what weka said.

      • greywarshark 17.2.1

        DTB
        That quote is very colourful. Unfortunately there are probably too many of such from that person. if I’m guessing right. (I start a long thread at the end sometimes.)
        And I really do want to take a break, but am led to read many of the commentators to get an extra grip on the Happenings of the days. The Standard is my newsstand mainly and RNZ.

    • fender 17.3

      “Deleting the standard link from my browser…….”

      LOL

      This must be the brighter future we were promised. Don’t choke on those hankies, nor forget to vote National (again?) in 2017.

      “….. when I say I’m going I mean it.”

      Like those other times you took your deflated ball home; see you tomorrow.

    • emergency mike 17.4

      “Deleting the standard link from my browser and unlike some, when I say I’m going I mean it.”

      Oh noes, who will provoke phil ure into long, boring, juvenille, pointless, name-calling shitfights now?

      I hope you do mean it – it would be your best contribution to The Standard. So long and thanks for all the redundant smiley faces. But if this is just another one of your periodical self-martyring teenage attention-seeking cry-wank posts, then I’ll be more disappointed than when Justin Bieber said he was only joking about announcing his retirement.

    • Murray Rawshark 17.5

      Best news I’ve had all day. You are an obnoxious and thick idiot who does your best to be an internet bully. Please stay away. Your contributions were unfailingly negative. Go and moan on Whalespew about how bad we all are.

  18. disturbed 18

    Hi Weka,
    I always enjoy your blogs.

    I am not perfect and neither is anyone else so any flack we all receive is just from others who obviously think they are simply superior and perfect which is a myth.

    As humans we all have tunnel vision but some don’t have tolerance at all of humanity here

    Some bloggers have agenda’s which are constantly seen as right wing trolls, so we all shrug them off as irrelevant to our left blog sites of The Standard & The Daily Blog as our leaders.

    Our world would be poorer without them so speak up and don’t let the right win.

    • weka 18.1

      That’s a thought-provoking comment, disturbed. Probably ts could do with more humility (including myself in that). Am also contemplating to what extent kindness and robust debate are compatible.

    • Naturesong 18.2

      I am not perfect and neither is anyone else so any flack we all receive is just from others who obviously think they are simply superior and perfect which is a myth.

      I’m not sure you have expressed this very well.
      My first response upon reading this comment is that it may cause you to overlook valid criticism directed toward you.

      If you are criticised, it’s often more useful to analyze both the critical aspect as well as the motivation of the person expressing criticism.
      And to make it more complex, sometimes criticism that is personal or motivated by ideology may actually be correct.

      And then again, some people are just assholes. C’est la vie.

  19. what was outlier..is rapidly becoming mainstream..’hip’..

    ..an example of a new idea overtaking/discarding the old..

    “..The rise of the vegans..

    ..It was once another term for ‘alternative lifestyle’.

    Now Veganism is a global obsession with some heavyweight backers.

    Carroll Du Chateau looks at how a diet free of cheese – meat – fish – and eggs –

    – went from hippie to hip..”

    (cont..)

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/canvas-magazine/news/article.cfm?c_id=532&objectid=11382948

  20. greywarshark 20

    lprent
    Did anything happen on 25 November 2014 that would affect my ability to access archives? I can’t get any of my own since then, and it seems to apply to others also.

    • lprent 20.1

      I will have a look when I get home. But I just tried several modes and they all worked. Try a Ctrl + refresh

      • greywarshark 20.1.1

        Hi thanks lprent I searched got 25/11 pressed Control and F5 – think that’s the right combination – and just the same. So when you have time!!

      • McFlock 20.1.2

        FWIW I have the same issue. Running latest firefox, tried clearing history etc, still no joy.

      • Anne 20.1.3

        Yes, I do too. Been the case since well before Xmas. Happens on google chrome and firefox.

  21. there was a cool doco on rnz on student radio..

    ..i was @ uni in 90’s..

    ..and did breakfast news/current affairs.. etc. for marcus lush/mikey havoc and graeme hill..(’till he fired me..)

    .it was the scene of one of my biggest missed opportunities..

    ..brent hansen (then head of mtv europe) sat in the studio with mikey one fri morn for the whole breakfast show..

    ..and i used to make a point of having all new/fresh stories every bulletin..

    ..hansen watched me bowling in and out of the studio..doing my thing..

    ..and at the end of the show he said to me that if i was ever in london and wanted some work..to come and see him..

    ..and i should have been on the next plane after him..

    ..but had just had a baby..and all that..

  22. Draco T Bastard 22

    Repeat after me: the Australian economy is not like a household budget | Warwick Smith

    As I’ve explained elsewhere, the finances of a sovereign government with its own fiat currency bear absolutely no resemblance to the finances of a household or a business. The federal government can create money. They don’t create all of the money that they need for all their expenses because that would cause out-of-control inflation.

    The obvious conclusion to be drawn from these two uncontroversial facts is that taxation and borrowing are not the limiting factors on government expenditure, inflation is. Acknowledging this completely turns the mainstream commentary on government financing on its head.

    An excellent, easy to understand, article about government finances.

  23. Jenny Kirk 23

    This should be required reading by all politicians, Draco T. – especially the Nat ones !

    • Draco T Bastard 23.1

      It should be required reading for everyone so that they can start to pull apart the lies that are passed to them by the MSM.

  24. Colonial Rawshark 24

    US seeks to destabilise Russian economy in order to make Russian lives miserable and encourage Moscow regime change

    It seems we are well on the road to a superpower proxy war in the Ukraine.

    After chiding Russia for supplying military aid, for which the US has provided no solid evidence in support of that claim, the US has passed an Act designed to funnel all sorts of military aid to the ruling powers in Kiev.

    This could just as easily have been labeled the “Do As We Say, Not As We Do” Act. For some reason, the Russians are not too impressed with that approach.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-09/road-war-russia

  25. joe90 25

    Says the prick who’s probably done more than anybody else to fan RWNJ hate and bigotry.

    Rupert Murdoch Verified account ‏@rupertmurdoch

    Maybe most Moslems peaceful, but until they recognize and destroy their growing jihadist cancer they must be held responsible.

    • Colonial Rawshark 25.1

      That man is just awful. And not a word about US funding of the Saudi pro-Wahabi/pro-Salafi aristocracy with billions of USD.

  26. Pat O'Dea 26

    “It doesn’t matter how much good positive stuff you do if you don’t stop the stuff coming out of the ground”
    JEANETTE FITZSIMMONS


    Leave fossil fuels buried to prevent climate change, study urges

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