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Open mike 10/09/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:30 am, September 10th, 2013 - 250 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

250 comments on “Open mike 10/09/2013 ”

  1. “In the Syria debate, President Obama’s toughest opponent is State Senator Barack Obama. In 2002, when he was an Illinois legislator, he made a speech against the Iraq War. Military action did not make sense, he said, because Saddam Hussein posed “no imminent and direct threat to the United States or to his neighbors,” and President Bush was acting “without a clear rationale and without strong international support.”

    Not only does the speech supply opponents of a Syria attack with quotable lines, it also serves as a reminder that a vote for military action in Syria carries huge political risk while a vote against it can become a political asset.

    This is why Mr. Obama cannot rely on political spin (and his campaign heavyweights) to make his case for strikes in Syria to Congress and the American people. Instead, he must make a strong strategic and moral argument that military action in Syria best serves America’s long-term interests and security.”


    • bad12 1.1

      Listening to RadioNZ, Russia is proposing that Syria’s chemical weapons stocks be handed over into the control of the ‘International community’, presumably the UN,

      Syria seems to be in agreement with the Russian proposal…

      • Colonial Viper 1.1.1

        If Assad was smart he’d start this process ASAP.

        • miravox

          +1 it’s the first bit of coordinated diplomacy in this whole rotten business.

          Your move now, Assad.

        • Ron

          That would be a little hard as Syria claimed that they do not have chemical weapons.

          • Pascal's bookie

            When? As far as I’m aware Syria’s position is that it’s CW stocks are under firm control. Pretty hard to calim that and also claim you don’t have any.

          • bad12

            i have not seen anywhere that Syria denies it has chemical weapons, Syria’s foreign Minister was quoted on RadioNZ this morning as agreeing to the Russian plan to have all such weapons put under the control of the ‘International community’ to be destroyed,

            Got anything linking to this denial???…

          • Colonial Viper

            That would be a little hard as Syria claimed that they do not have chemical weapons.

            That’s very mischievious and false of you, Ron.

          • phillip ure

            ron is outright lying..

            ..in fact..syria bought the chemical weapons..from britain..

            ..so there ya go..eh..?

            ..phillip ure..

            • Ron

              No they did not buy chemical weapons from Britain. I think people are getting confused in that what it purchased from UK was Sodium Flurosillicate (I think that is correct spelling) and yes it can be used to create Sarin Gas but that doesn’t prove they did, though I agree it is quite likely. I thought the Geneva Convention outlawed the use of Chemical weapons so why on earth would you make them?
              I will try and find where I read that they denied the making of chemical weapons.

              • Ron

                Not sure I follow this but it is a fun site to wade through

              • Populuxe1

                Sodium fluorosilicate is used in water fluoridation,opal glass raw material, ore refining and a bunch of other uncontroversial things

              • GregJ

                Actually you mean the Geneva Protocols (1925) of the Hague Convention (1899 & 1907). The protocol says nothing about the production, stockpiling, storage or transfer – Syria signed the Protocol in 1968 with a reservation with regard to diplomatic recognition of Israel.

                The US also has a reservation to the protocol:

                “The protocol shall cease to binding on the government of the United States with respect to the use in war of asphyxiating, poisonous or other gases, and all analogous liquids, materials, or devices, in regard to any enemy State if such State or any of its allies fails to respect the prohibitions laid down in the Protocol”.

                Jordon has a reservation that the Protocol is not binding with respect to Israel.

                New Zealand used to have 2 Reservations which were withdrawn in 1989 (these were held in common with countries such as the UK, Canada, Australia & others – Ireland led the way withdrawing these reservations in 1971 & Australia in 1986) that the Protocol is Binding only with regards to states which have ratified or acceded to the protocol & ceases to be binding in regards to any state, and its allies, which does not observe the prohibitions of the protocol.

                There is a generally held belief that the Protocol now also applies to internal (ie. Civil) Wars but that is challenged by some & probably would have to be challenged in the International Courts.

                Syria has not signed the Chemical Weapons Convention (1993) – neither has North Korea, Egypt, South Sudan, & Angola. Israel & Myanmar (Burma) have signed but not ratified. US & Russia (among others) still have stockpiles which were meant to be destroyed by April 2012, a deadline not met – US is 90% destroyed (intends to complete by 2023), Russia is 57% (pledges 100% by 2015-2016). Libya has started destruction and has destroyed 54.46% of its stockpile, Iraq has yet to start destruction. Japan and China have started in October 2010 the destruction of chemical weapons abandoned by Japan in China.

                13 countries declared Chemical Weapons production facilities when signing the Convention: Bosnia and Herzegovina; China; France; India; Iran; Iraq; Japan; Libya; Russia; Serbia; United Kingdom & United States. One other non-declared State has facilities (thought to be South Korea). All 70 facilities declared in the above are now deactivated (from mid 2012) & about 90% are now destroyed.

            • Rogue Trooper

              replied to the ..hangman’s noose..before last sundown.

          • the pigman

            [citation needed]

      • vto 1.1.2

        But it didn’t work with Iraq. Saddam Hussein said he had no weapons of mass destruction and even let UN inspectors in.

        The US state-sanctioned murderers still went in and killed tens of thousands.

        • bad12

          True, we all must pretty much agree that this all looks like part of the US/Israeli/Saudi plan to smash all those States in the mid-East that are not 100% in the pocket of the American administration be that Tweedle-dee or Tweedle-dum,

          All we can really do is to keep on saying NO…

          • North

            bad12@ – True.

            US acts like it doesn’t care too much if things fester into declared war.

            Relatively it’s Israel and Gaza. Of course there’s a plan. Which will be maintained subject to the vociferousness of US public opinion.

            Already……”this does not depend on the UN.”

            Backed up by Corporal ShonKey.

            Has he got the balls or is the umbilical cord way too strong ?

        • Populuxe1

          So the Kurds at Halabja just all died out of spite?

          • Rogue Trooper

            contaminated WPC

          • Pascal's bookie

            Obviously not, but no one cared at the time because he was fighting the Iranians. He gave up his chemical weapons after the 1st gulf war. But you knew that didn’t you arsehole?

            • Populuxe1

              I suppose that’s why Saddam had to be more creative in eliminating the Marsh Arabs, you arsehole (prolapsed)

              • Pascal's bookie

                What’s that got to do with anything Pop?

                Are you labouring under the impression I think saddam was a nice guy? Nope, he was a prick when he gassed the Kurds and the US hushed it up because he was being useful, and he was a prick when he crushed the uprisings the US encouraged.

                None of which means he had CW when the US invaded in 03, which is all VTO was talking about.

                • felix

                  Because when you disagree with anything Pop believes, you’re disagreeing with everything Pop believes. And you’re a homophobe.

                • North

                  And we shouldn’t forget the crazed Donald Rumsfeld as the envoy of the even more crazed Ronald Reagan going to Iraq.

                  Carrying a felicitous personal letter from The Chesterfield Man.

                  Craving Saddam’s warm welcome and good offices and Iraqi purchase of US helicopters and so on.

                • Populuxe1

                  I really don’t care – I don’t tend to weep over the ends of sadistic tyrants, justified or not.

            • GregJ

              Strictly speaking PB that’s not true – Iraq under Saddam may have given up most of their Chemical Weapons but in 2009 the Iraqi Government joined the Chemical Weapons Convention and declared 2 bunkers worth of (mainly degraded) Chemical Munitions and about 5 Chemical Weapons Production Facilities – see here. The Bush propaganda was technically true if grossly misleading.

    • Populuxe1 1.2

      Meh. I’d say that this was deliberate and strategic posturing on Obama’s part, and impression seemingly supported by John Kerry’s comments. Basically the sabre rattling has given impetus to Syria to hand over their chemical weapons while hinting to Russia a diplomatic solution that will allow Putin to save face. That is some seriously good statecraft.

  2. Ad 2

    For the life of me I cannot fathom where I am supposed to be morally with respect to intervening in Syria.

    – Support the remaining moderates within Syria

    – Support those whose families have been gassed

    – Support the 1925 Geneva Protocol against the use of gas weapons

    – May hasten the end of the civil war

    – Not supported by United Nations, or UN security Council

    – Unlikely to affect regime change or install democracy in and of itself

    – Teach the US the lesson is has never learned in 60 years that they are not the moral authority of the world

    – May make the whole thing worse, as US intervention has in every Arab Spring country so far

    Any suggestions?

    • ad..you possibly left out as a negative outcome..as with libya/iraq..the christian minorities in syria facing persecution..and worse..

      ..should the american-supported fundamentalists succeed in americas’ aim..of yet another regime-change/country to loot..

      ..phillip ure..

      • Ad 2.2.1

        And as a practising Catholic I took the Pope’s letter and call to fasting seriously. Just didn’t think it was appropriate for Sandardistas.

        • beGone Craven SpyBill leopard


          Some thoughts for your moral dilemma:

          When you hear Obama saying to the American people ‘we won’t put men on the ground’ This is being said to tell them that he is trying to ensure there will be minimal American deaths. Doing this, however, means that they will be bombing Syria from the air. This maximises deaths of ordinary citizens in Syria. i.e. not only will there be people dying from gas, America is going to extend the deaths and horror. Bombing also destroys infrastructure and the culture.

          If America uses uranium depleted weapons, as they have done in Iraq then this will cause the deaths to continue for many decades and disability for more than that as it is doing in Fallujah. (Has America ‘gone after’ the people who conducted this atrocity; themselves?)

          Do you KNOW who used the gas or are you only taking American Power Brokers’ words for it? Please recall the Weapons of Mass Destruction that Iraq didn’t have and how this was lied about prior to the Iraq war.

          On that [false] basis America went into the Iraq war against UN conventions.

          Do you KNOW who the rebels are and what this war is about?

          Hint: read around I wouldn’t take the mainstream media’s word for it. (Recall what the mainstream media were saying about WMD prior to the Iraq war; were they showing both sides of the story or just passing on American power-brokers’ propaganda?)

          Isn’t there something in the bible about lying and killing being a sin?

          Would you support a cause that you knew the people conducting it had already been proven to lie about things in order to wreck another entire country, people and culture?

          • phillip ure

            and of course..when assessing the veracity of americas’ high moral ground standing here..

            ..this video-report from bbc must be taken into account..eh..?


            “..London Surgeons Help ‘Children of Agent Orange’

            The Vietnam War ended nearly 40 years ago, but the casualties continue as birth defects plague the country.

            There are claims that thousands of children continue to be born with horrific facial deformities due to the 20 million gallons of Agent Orange chemical sprayed by the United States.

            The Vietnamese call the disfigured youngsters ‘the children of Agent Orange’.

            Da Nang in central Vietnam is thought to have the highest level of congenital deformity in the world..”

            the hypocrisy around this one is face-melting…

            phillip ure..

            • beGone Craven Spy Bill leopard

              ++1 Phillip Ure

              ‘face-melting’ is a good word for it.

              It is dreadful and hard to stand the double standards being displayed.

              Even worse to bear is the thought of them going in and bombing yet another country 🙁

              This is just truly horrific.

            • North

              Yeah phillip ure………in Ho Chi Minh City particularly one just couldn’t be unconscious of crippled people. Then I realised that legs and arms connected at all sorts of unnatural angles weren’t down to accident or disease. Truly I wept.

      • GregJ 2.2.2

        Already happening Philip – attack on Maaloula follows similar attacks & kidnappings of clerics in Churches in Aleppo. Also add increased attacks on the Coptic Church in Egypt to Iraq, Libya & Syria.

  3. “Men are apparently expected to wear black tie for dinner, and women’s attire must not be too revealing, the paper says. Stephie Key, 20, will have to wear more than the strategically placed food she draped over herself for a recent series of self-portraits at Paris Design Week.

    Valets are on hand to help get the small touches right. The only time casual attire is acceptable is at barbecues, which are reportedly held every Saturday over summer.”

    .. thanks for the hint. Much needed in the Antipodes. Carrying a tinnie and wearing thongs would not do. Expect an outbreak of royalist enthusiasm during the coming elections. Will Dame Edna Everage be in attendance ?


  4. yeshe 4

    No wonder Mr Slippery is darned confident of a good relationship wuth Tony Abbott … look at this nugget .. common denominator TEXTOR !!!!!!!! (How much power does he have and for whom does he really execute it ?)

    “In the hours before arriving on stage, Abbott had closeted himself in a suite on the 34th floor of the hotel with the Liberal’s federal director Brian Loughnane, the pollster and strategist Mark Textor, Abbott’s chief of staff and the wife of Loughnane, Peta Credlin, and, for a period, the party’s former leader and prime minister of almost 12 years, John Howard as they counted in the vote.”


    And when I got through that factoid, the reveal about their tactics is redolent of events here. Here be dragonz …

    • tc 4.1

      The Lib’s campaign like shonkeys in 08 was all slogans and staged events with little or no serious debate, a CT trademark.

      Numbers were released 2 days before the vote with as many holes as one of Blinglish’s efforts and the MSM is by and large in behind anyway so only the Crikeys’ etc really dissected it with gusto.

      It was all academic really, the Rudd/Gillard show had turned the swingers in the Lib’s favour and Rudd finished it off with a ego-centric campaign.

      Key can’t wait to get over there and give TA some pointers he doesn’t need as the script is already finalised coutesy of the minerals council, Rupert, Telstra, Private school lobby groups, a few neo-lib think tanks etc.

      The senate is very screwed up (more so than ever now) and is yet another reform area ignored by all so the Lib’s have their work cut out getting any laws passed.

      I predict after the initial burst of born again energy fades TA goes back to type and starts bullying and shouting (just like the old uni days) and Turnbull and co start positioning themselves to take the crown.

      Same dog different leg action.

    • grumpy 4.2

      Textor is a pussycat compared to Labor’s McTiernan (ex Tony Blair). He devised the whole combative campaign for Gillard, Male against Female, Workers against employers etc. look where that got them.

  5. vto 5

    Brownlee and co certainly know how to piss off pretty much every sector in Christchurch http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/business/the-rebuild/9144599/Owners-riled-by-frame-plan

    oh, except for those in his electorate….. funny that.

  6. yeshe – Textor advises conservative parties (the nats and the libs) on both sides of the Tasman, as well as the UK. I you ask them nicely, they will probably admit it.

  7. MSM says geo-engineering could cool the planet and a rich guy or corporation could try it with no regulation over the oceans. Seems to me somebody already is!

    But conspiring? Our governments owned by corporations? No Sir, Never!

    • vto 7.1

      Chris Trotter in the Press this morning says basically exactly that about Tony Abbot’s lot and Rupert Murdoch, who owns two-thirds of Australia’s media. i.e. corruption and conspiracy.

      Rupert Murdoch in bed with Tony Abbott.

      Who owns the main media in NZ?

      • Tracey 7.1.1

        ” Rupert Murdoch ✔ @rupertmurdoch

        Aust election public sick of public sector workers and phony welfare scroungers sucking life out of economy.Others nations to follow in time”

        “On Friday, Abbott said of Murdoch, who became a US citizen in 1985: “I’ve got a lot of time for Rupert Murdoch because whether you like his papers or don’t like his papers he’s one of the most influential Australians of all time.”

        “Aussies should support our hometown heroes, that’s what I think in his own way Rupert Murdoch is.””

        • travellerev

          You mean Abbott who has the same PR advisers as John Key? Here is what Mark Textor has to say about his protege the new Prime minister of Australia Abbott’s victory was a historic victory; but his triumph over voter cynicism was his great personal victory.

        • Greywarbler

          He loved Australia so much that Murdoch laid down his citizenship and left Oz in pieces to belong to the USA, his real home if not his natural one as well.

      • Ron 7.1.2

        Well not Murdoch that is for sure he sold his papers to Fairfax yonks ago

    • Populuxe1 7.2

      Have you ever visited the planet Earth?

  8. 1 in 2 Americans Have Doubts About Government Account of 9/11

    “On the 12th anniversary of 9/11, a new national survey by the polling firm YouGov reveals that one in two Americans have doubts about the government’s account of 9/11, and after viewing video footage of World Trade Center Building 7’s collapse, 46% suspect that it was caused by a controlled demolition. Building 7, a 47-story skyscraper, collapsed into its own footprint late in the afternoon on 9/11.

    The poll was sponsored by ReThink911, a global public awareness campaign launched on September 1. The campaign includes a 54-foot billboard in Times Square and a variety of transit and outdoor advertising in 11 other cities, all posing the question, “Did you know a third tower fell on 9/11?”


    • Populuxe1 8.1

      Sounds like crap to me. But for the record 46% of Americans believe in Creationism, 8 in ten Americans believe in angels, and nearly 100% of American pre-adolescents believed in Santa Claus. So big whoopity shit.

      • Crunchtime 8.1.1

        If 9/11 was an inside job, it would join a long list of false-flag operations that tipped the US into unnecessary war. Nobody seems to remember how and why Vietnam started either… That was over a load of junk too (so to speak).

      • North 8.1.2

        And with people like the ones you describe Pops…….any fuck’n’ thing is possible.

        They’ll buy any shit when that hand creeps up over the heart. Doesn’t even matter if they’re completely wrong as to conspiracy.

        Point is the US is a cauldron of craziness with the “American Dream” pretty much rotted…….then packeted up and dumped on the immeasurably weaker, poorer parts of the world, in bully fashion.

        Thing is you seem to love that cauldron as something v fine.

        • Populuxe1

          Yeah, I don’t understand where you get that nonsense from me not automatically and simplistically frothing at the mouth like a rabid dog whenever someone mentions the US.

  9. Two journalists have arrived on Christmas Island after travelling by sea on an asylum seeker boat.

    It is understood American reporter Luke Mogelson and Dutch photojournalist Joel van Houdt were at sea for three days, and are badly sunburnt.

    The Immigration Department has confirmed they arrived with valid travel documents and visas.

    The journalist and photographer have spoken with federal police and once they had been processed they were free to go.

    Someone on the asylum seeker boat called for help on Sunday morning, asking for food and water.

    HMAS Armidale found the boat roughly two-and-a-half hours later, gave those on board food and water and escorted them to Christmas Island.

    Customs officials say there were 57 passengers and two crew on board.

    Van Houdt’s girlfriend, Amie Ferris-Rotman, says the two journalists are based in Kabul, Afghanistan, and were on assignment for The New York Times magazine.


  10. Tracey 11

    Australian stance on refugees explained…

    “Born in Marghuz, Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province, Fawad began playing cricket for Swabi District in local competitions.[1] Playing as a right-arm leg spinner, he made his first-class debut for Abbottabad in 2005, playing two matches before being dropped from the side.[2] Fawad resumed playing first-class cricket in 2009, playing for Pakistan Customs in the Quaid-i-Azam Trophy, and later that year also played three further matches for Abbottabad. His best bowling figures, 6/109, were taken for Pakistan Customs against the Karachi Whites, in January 2009.[3]

    Fawad left Pakistan in 2010, emigrating to Australia on a short-stay visa sponsored by the Yoogali Cricket Association.[4] Soon after arrival, he applied for refugee status, claiming he was persecuted by religious extremists for playing and coaching cricket.[5] His hometown is in northwest Pakistan, a region that borders Afghanistan and is affected by the current War in North-West Pakistan.[6][7][8] Choosing to live in Melbourne, Victoria, Fawad took up playing with Hoppers Crossing in the Victorian Turf Cricket Association, and soon progressed to playing for Melbourne University in Victorian Premier Cricket.[9] Fawad Ahmed also participated in Melbourne’s largest ‘open’ T20 event run by Infinity Cricket in 2011 & 2012 representing the Western Warriors who were winners. He was named the Best Bowler of the 2012 Infinity T20 Cricket Tournament.

    Despite having his initial application declined, he was granted permanent residency in November 2012.[10] Later that month, Fawad signed with the Melbourne Renegades, having been granted a special exemption to play in the Big Bash League.

    He made his debut in the Big Bash League in January 2013, taking 0/34 on debut, and was subsequently selected in the Prime Minister’s XI to play against the West Indies.[12][13]

    In five one-day matches for Victoria in the Ryobi One Day Cup in 2012-13 he took 10 wickets at 18.00. He also played in Victoria’s last three matches in the Sheffield Shield, taking 16 wickets at 28.37, including 2 for 79 and 5 for 83 against Queensland.

    On July 2, 2013 Ahmed was granted Australian citizenship, clearing him to play for the full Australian national cricket team.”

    I bet the interment camps are full of kids using table legs to play cricket now…

    • Te Reo Putake 11.1

      The connection is clear; Fawad comes from Abbottabad, the home until recently of WG Grace impersonator Osama Bin Laden. Abbott is the new Aussie PM and the Aussie cricketers play real Bad. Need I say more?

  11. Jenny 12

    If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear

    “Bank seizes teacher’s cash under terror act”

    • Tracey 12.1

      here’s another example of someone who had nothing to hide having something to fear.


      Every innocent person charged with a crime had something to fear…

      It’s a vacuous/meaningless phrase intended to shut down argument like people who respond in an argument with ” oh that’s just stupid PC nonsense”. It’s not actually an argument

    • Tracey 12.2

      “When databases work from 100% accurate information; when that information is used in accordance with the original consent purpose; when processes work correctly; when outcomes are as expected for every subject in the database; then, arguably, individuals have nothing to fear. Unfortunately, this is a Utopian state that is never achieved in a real world system. We see numerous examples of this problem:

      Take the extreme example of Khalid El-Masri. This German national was kidnapped, flown to Afghanistan, tortured and then eventually released when it was realised that his was a case of mistaken identity, and he was not in fact an alleged terrorist with a similar name.
      In 2007, junior doctors found their personal information – including sexual orientation – published on the Internet in a web security breach. How many of those individuals were ‘outed’ as a result of that breach? Those who had kept their orientation secret from their families or colleagues were perfectly at rights to do so, but found it released anyway.
      In 2006 a student was wrongfully arrested for stealing mail when a batch of letters were recovered. His fingerprints – which had been taken a year previously when he was accused of criminal damage but released without charge after the real culprit confessed – matched those on some of the letters. After his arrest it was discovered that the letters bearing his fingerprints were posted by him. He was released, and then had to campaign to have his DNA data removed from the National DNA Database.
      Time and again individuals have been fired from jobs, or failed to get jobs, because of errors in the Criminal Records Bureau database. They have been stigmatised as criminals, even to the extent of being falsely branded as sex offenders, because of database failings.”


    • Draco T Bastard 12.3

      The Ministry of Justice was unable to comment yesterday but in advice released when the act came into effect in June, it described suspicious transactions as “ones which are inconsistent with a customer’s known, legitimate business or personal activities”.

      My bold.

      So, if you decide to change your life you’re going to get treated as a terrorist. Actually, why are they looking that closely at your life anyway?

    • Te Reo Putake 13.1

      So was 9/11, for that matter.

      • travellerev 13.1.1

        No, that was a hijacking of four planes (One of which went up in thin air upon impact with the ground) by 19 evil Arabs with box cutters belonging to the ruthless al Qaeda terrorist network able to avoid scrambled jets for 1.5 hours and the power to break the laws of physics and gravity.

        And while they were predominantly pork eating, booze swilling, coke addled, whore fucking fundamental Muslims from Saudi Arabia we bombed Afghanistan back to the stone age because their mad kidney failure suffering leader (also a Saudi National) apparently hid in a cave there and we wanted to free the women of Afghanistan form having to wear the Hijab and we didn’t like the Taliban either.

        We never found their leader until a year or two ago or so and we killed him and chucked him in the sea cause that is what Muslims do apparently and we wanted to be respectful of their faith.

        We bombed Iraq because their leader had nothing to do with 9/11 but he gassed his own people with the help of the CIA and killed about a million of Iraqis cause we wanted to liberate them too and while we were at it we liberated Libya at the cost of hundreds of thousands of dead people but that was not a bombing exercise, that was a kinetic military exercise and I think that is where we started to use a limited airstrike which by the way wasn’t limited at all.

        And now we want to bomb the Syrians because they are bombing each other while al Qaeda mercenaries kill entire villages and make video’s of killing rabbits with poison gas while threatening to do this with Syrians who do not support their rabbitly fundamentalist Wahhabi Islam and Obama is trying to sell the West that we have to fight on the side of these maniacs while all this mayhem started in order to kill them.

        Sounds mad? Well, you’re buying it. Not me!

        • Populuxe1

          Do you realise that wild conspiracy theories are put about by world government to make idiots feel powerless and resigned, while at the same time destracting them from the fact the world is just chaotic, badly managed and generally quite boringly mundane?

          • travellerev

            So they can do that but not actually conspire? WTF? 😆

            • Populuxe1

              Obviously my sarcasm was a bit too subtle.

              • Te Reo Putake

                You’re wasting your time, Pop! 11 years, 363 days and still not a scrap of evidence, but that ain’t going to stop Ev. Gravy for the mind!

                • pollywog

                  Building 7…that is all the evidence you need.

                  • McFlock

                    … that a building collapsed.

                    • beGone Craven Spy Bill leopard

                      ….by itself

                      …at free-fall speeds

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      It was hit by big lumps of the neighbouring falling tower, beGone. Not that confusing, is it?

                    • beGone Craven Spy Bill leopard

                      @ TRP,

                      Since when has being hit with ‘big lumps’ of anything caused an entire building to collapse completely and neatly in its own footprint? There is footage of the building and it is pretty clear that it is intact just prior to collapsing (i.e. not chunks missing from it due to these ‘big lumps’ of building falling on it).

                    • McFlock


                      yeah, waste of time.
                      “Free fall speed” my arse.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Bits of the neighbouring building fell on it. There are photos showing enormous holes in the side facing the Twin towers, where debris struck. It took hours to fall and was a worry to the emergency services the whole time. Falling down is a pretty likely outcome of having any even bigger building fall on you. No mystery. No evidence to the contrary.

                    • beGone Craven Spy Bill leopard

                      @ TRP,

                      So the video of the building falling is sped up?

                      Is that what you are saying?

                • beGone Craven Spy Bill leopard

                  Along with the spontaneous-collapsing-building syndrome America appeared to develop that day, I have to say I have real trouble explaining away the size of that hole created in the Pentagon.

                  Haven’t heard any decent explanations as to how it could be so small relative to the size of the plane?

                  Planes have retractable wings now… perhaps?

                  • Te Reo Putake

                    Um, coz it didn’t hit the ground, but actually hit the building at approximately ground level. While flying parallel with the ground (think skipping stone). If you have a look at the wreckage of the plane that did directly hit the ground in Pennsylvania or other similar crashes, there aren’t craters like bombs make because of the forward movement of the debris.

                    Science, eh? Pissing off the ignorant since Galileo’s time.

                    • beGone Craven Spy Bill leopard

                      Nah, is a genuine question, have never understood how that hole could be the size it is.

                      I understood the plane hit the building and that is the problem; there is no damage to the building where the wings should have been, nor was wing wreckage evident in front of the building in the pictures we saw. What explains that?

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      I imagine that it didn’t hit the building in a uniform manner leaving a recogniseable hole, BeGone (ie not like the imprint the Roadrunner leaves on the canyon floor after his rollerskate rocket runs out of fuel.). It’s just as likely to have gone in skewed sideways as it is that it hit fully frontal. No way of knowing, really, but to be fair, it was being flown by a suicidal amateur who wasn’t particularly worried about botching the landing.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Er, Coyote, of course. Beep Beep!

                    • beGone Craven Spy Bill leopard

                      And really, TRP, it is simply stupid to be smug about ‘science being on your side’ in the way that you did there, it brings to mind people believing that ‘God is on their side’ when committing atrocities.

                      It seems particularly stupid in this case for me because the room for doubt was initially created by those with scientific training explaining in no uncertain terms that it is impossible for a building to collapse quickly in the way that all those buildings did on that day because this indicates that the lower floors are creating no resistance; this is impossible, that led me to have doubts regarding the events of Sept 11.

                      I have put these doubts on the back burner and have not drawn conclusions, however it really is quite painful to continually discover the more one reads historical events the more one finds America has behaved in highly dubious ways on many occasions, there also seem to be increasing numbers of people who were in respectable jobs at the time asking questions as to the veracity of the official story and claiming dubious procedures regarding the investigation afterwards.

                      Taking these factors, alone, into account one would have to be very obtuse to dismiss out of hand whether what we were told was the full story.

                    • McFlock

                      Normally, I wouldn’t use Cracked as a reference. But in this case it’s a thousand times more reliable that the “free fall” crowd.

                    • beGone Craven Spy Bill leopard

                      @ TRP,

                      You really aren’t making as much sense as you probably think you are. Coyote? Beep Beep?


                      And this:

                      “It’s just as likely to have gone in skewed sideways as it is that it hit fully frontal. “

                      That should have made the hole larger and is not satisfying the question that I asked at all…far from it!

                      Thanks for attempting to explain it to me though.

                    • McFlock

                      Taking these factors, alone, into account one would have to be very obtuse to dismiss out of hand whether what we were told was the full story.

                      Whoa, there! There are light-years between “not being told the full story” and “it was all a conspiracy by the government to fabricate an attack by using missiles, drones, nano-thermite and actors so they could blame Saudis in order to justify invading Iraq”.

                    • beGone Craven Spy Bill leopard

                      @ McFlock,

                      Thanks for the link, unfortunately its not loading very well because I am on dial-up (too many pictures on the page by the looks of it)

                      I also don’t usually bother getting into these conversations because I realise what it does for one’s credibility, however, yes I am increasingly having doubts.

                      “Whoa, there! There are light-years between “not being told the full story” and “it was all a conspiracy by the government to fabricate an attack by using missiles, drones, nano-thermite and actors so they could blame Saudis in order to justify invading Iraq”.

                      I never said any of the second part you cite here, I have scrolled up and can’t find who did, however it does pay not to make assumptions re where someone is coming from.

                      I am somewhat averse to conspiracy theories, certainly don’t like it when people assume them to be true, (I like the way they encourage people to question though), however I am finding I am questioning more and more about what we are being told. It doesn’t seem very wise to assume this to be true either anymore. This is the trouble with crying ‘wolf’ too many times.

                      It would be good to be able to have a discussion of the events of 9/11 without the judgmental ‘tone’ that often comes about, however from observation this is what occurs when an issue gets polarized.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      “And really, TRP, it is simply stupid to be smug about ‘science being on your side’ in the way that you did there, it brings to mind people believing that ‘God is on their side’ when committing atrocities.”

                      Well, beGone, given that you’re in the middle of committing an intellectual atrocity, I think its only fair to point out that belief in God, without evidence, has more in common with the equally evidence free belief in the other wacko 9/11 conspiracies.

                    • McFlock

                      I never said any of the second part you cite here, I have scrolled up and can’t find who did, however it does pay not to make assumptions re where someone is coming from.

                      You reckon the hole is too small for a plane and that building 7 collapsed “at freefall speeds” “in its own footprint”. Now you shy away from the requirements that if those two assessments are correct, then something smaller than a plane made the pentagon hole and that the lower floors must already have been destroyed for the upper floors to go at “freefall speed”. Then you have to figure out what was used to destroy those floors at the correct timing sequence, how it was installed by experts over months with nobody noticing, and so on.

                      By the way, part of the load time for the cracked article would be all the pictures of aircraft debris around the pentagon.

                    • beGone Craven SpyBill leopard


                      Oh dear, you really are a moron aren’t you; asking questions surrounding an event is not the same as ‘believing in a wacko conspiracy theory’ nor is it an intellectual atrocity. In fact not asking questions is an intellectual atrocity. You never learn anything if you don’t ask.

                      For that reason I conclude only very ‘intellectually challenged’ people would condemn someone for asking questions.

                    • beGone Craven SpyBill leopard


                      You are tending to make assumptions and expecting that I am doing the same. I am questioning the aspects of arguments that conspiracy theory programmes present that I can’t honestly say I can explain away to myself.

                      If someone could explain these aspects away it would remove some nagging doubt in my mind.

                      I don’t have to go into how they could collapse at ‘free-fall speeds’ in their own footprint if someone can explain how this could occur…naturally. The ‘free-fall’ comment was one which was explained to me by someone who has a very solid grasp on physics and maths and is why I mention it, because perhaps there is a counter theory that can discount the seeming impossibility of that occurring, which as it was explained to me sounded horribly plausible (that buildings simply can’t collapse that fast without being undermined from below).

                      I am very aware that any program can present facts that make the argument seem watertight even when the argument isn’t. I have occasionally looked at webpages for and against 9/11 being an inside job, however it is a subject that has got polarized therefore it appears the information of each site is exaggerated either for or against the view that it is an inside job and thus, I don’t find such sites very helpful.

                      I will have to try and wait and see if the page that you linked to will load I am very interested to see the wreckage. I have only seen photos where there are very few pieces of the plane left. Thanks!

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Moron? You’re the one with the comprehension difficulties and I thought I was playing nice by answering your questions. Sad you had to resort to abuse, but you’re not the first 9/11 frother to go that way when the facts are pointed out. Enjoy the anniversary; 12 years, no evidence.

                    • beGone Craven SpyBill leopard

                      @ TRP

                      Sadly, you haven’t answered anything as it turns out

                      “Science, eh? Pissing off the ignorant since Galileo’s time”

                      “ie not like the imprint the Roadrunner leaves on the canyon floor after his rollerskate rocket runs out of fuel.”

                      “Intellectual atrocity”.

                      Its more impressive to be able to take a bit of what you dish out, TRP

                    • McFlock

                      You are tending to make assumptions and expecting that I am doing the same. I am questioning the aspects of arguments that conspiracy theory programmes present that I can’t honestly say I can explain away to myself.

                      The assumption you make is that “the aspects of arguments that conspiracy theory programmes present” are presented in good faith and honesty by people who are sane and know what they are talking about. Not often seen on tv these days.

                      Heck, try wikipedia.

                  • beGone Craven SpyBill leopard

                    @ McFlock,

                    Nope, as I have already stated:

                    I am very aware that any program can present facts that make the argument seem watertight even when the argument isn’t.

                    What I was doing was seeking for some resolution to doubts I have had.

                    I found a more detailed answer here

                    It is well and good for TRP to state ‘there is no evidence’ however it is not very impressive that a reasonable discussion can’t be conducted on the subject. A link such as the one I have provided would have been more beneficial to achieve that end.

                    Otherwise those debunking the debunkers simply end up following the same technique of trusting blindly in the information provided and basing their arguments on hollow understanding. One must look at both sides of the story and find reasonable explanation for doubts, sarky adhominem attacks don’t suffice for a reasonable discussion of the facts.

                    Funnily enough I hold very similar views to Populuxe’s comment above:
                    “Do you realise that wild conspiracy theories are put about by world government to make idiots feel powerless and resigned, while at the same time destracting them from the fact the world is just chaotic, badly managed and generally quite boringly mundane?”

                    I think that the conspiracy dvd’s that cultivate the most fearful messages are created from highly dubious motives and seeing as they lead to a sense of powerlessness have concluded they serve the purposes of those already in power while presenting as though they are railing against them.

                    • McFlock

                      A reasonable discussion requires two competent participants acting in good faith.

                      People regurgitating lines like “free-fall speed”, “false flag” and so on are usually missing at least one of those criteria.

                      One must look at both sides of the story and find reasonable explanation for doubts, sarky adhominem attacks don’t suffice for a reasonable discussion of the facts.

                      A reasonable explanation for many of the “doubts” raised by so-called “truthers” is that they are kooks. Looking at “both sides of the story” implies that each side is equally valid from the outset.

                      Oh, some of them are looking for explanations for their personal loss, some of them are in it for the money because fear sells, and some of them are just idiots who think the conspiracy theories are true because they are consistent with their personal paranoia about “world government” etc. Some of them might not even be known kooks apart from this one issue. But it’s still all bullshit that quickly descends into massive suppositions and a theoretical house of cards, just to support a supposedly valid “point of view” that differs from the massive amounts of evidence that a handful of hijackers flew some planes into some buildings.

                    • beGone Craven SpyBill leopard

                      …and in case you are interested, just found another site with an explanation on the size of the Pentagon impact

                      (You have to scroll down to Pentagon info)

                      “Why wasn’t the hole as wide as a 757′s 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn’t punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University. In this case, one wing hit the ground; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon’s load-bearing columns, explains Sozen, who specializes in the behavior of concrete buildings. What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to a liquid than a solid mass. “If you expected the entire wing to cut into the building,” Sozen tells PM, “it didn’t happen.”

                      The tidy hole in Ring C was 12 ft. wide–not 16 ft. ASCE concludes it was made by the jet’s landing gear, not by the fuselage.

                • Crunchtime

                  Not a scrap of evidence for what?

                  There is MOUNTAINS of evidence for most of what he just said. Were you referring to everything he said, or just Afghanistan, or Iraq, or Libya, or Syria, or 9/11?

                  • Te Reo Putake

                    I was referring to the 9/11 truth deniers, Crunchtime. The various other saddo conspiracies are equally funny, of course.

      • Populuxe1 13.1.2

        However Obama also said it wouldn’t be an open-ended engagement, which the other two certainly were.

  12. bad12 14

    Does raising the minimum wage cause unemployment to rise, another ‘brick in the wall’ which strongly suggests that it don’t,

    ”In Florida where voters approved an increase,(to the minimum wage),in 2004, a followup comprehensive study confirms a strong economy with INCREASED EMPLOYMENT above previous years in Florida and better than in the US as a whole”,


    As this is also relevant to the above i will post this again to aid in building the whole picture which has obviously been, (deliberately?),distorted over time by economists with a right wing bias along with ‘publication bias’ which i will address below,

    ”In Nevada USA where the minimum is $7.25 an hour the jobless rate is 10.2%”,

    ”In Vermont USA where the minimum is $8.60 an hour the jobless rate is 5.1%


    Publication bias, where the media, controlled by the right, simply does not publish data and studies which do not support the views of the right appears to be rife when it comes to economics,

    ”Several researchers have conducted statistical meta-analysis of the employment effects of the minimum wage”,

    ”In 1995 Card and Kruegar analyzed 14 earlier time series studies on minimum wages and concluded that there was clear evidence of publication bias,(in favor of studies that found a statistically negative employment effect)”,

    ”Though a serious methodological indictment, opponents of the minimum wage largely ignored this issue”,

    ”As Thomas.C. Leonard noted,”the silence is fairly deafening”,


    • srylands 14.1

      I think you are in danger of your own publication bias. As Michael Saltsman points out about 85% of reputable epirical wiork in the last 20 years on the effect of minimum wage increases show a negatuve employment effect.

      Card and Kruegar should be trated with suspicion. Their seminal 1992 study on the employment effects of MW increases was shown to be totally flawed. They got the data wrong – the correct data showed an unequivacal employment loss. I have attached the coverage of this by Saltsman.


      • bad12 14.1.1

        Yes i too often rely on ‘epirical wiork’ to make a point, are you drunk again SSlands,

        i asked you this yesterday SSLands at which point you did a runner, explain this for me won’t you,

        ”In Nevada USA where the minimum is $7.25 an hour the jobless rate is 10.2%”,

        ”in Vermont USA where the minimum is $8.60 an hour the unemployment rate is 5.1%”

        According to you this cannot be so, but it IS, not a result of some ‘epirical wiork’, but the real world fact,

        Your explanation please oh economic genius…

        • srylands

          Empirical work is the real world you dickhead

          • srylands

            Yes you are right. The strongly performing Vermont economy and low unemployment rate is CAUSED by its minimum wage rate being $1.35 higher than the MW rate for the state of Nevada. It couldn’t be anything else.

            Dealing with you is waste of time.

            • geoff

              Haha, srylands, you’re a tard.

              Your argument is that a higher minimum wage is incompatible with a strong economy and bad12
              showed you a counter example which completely destroys your position.

              • Populuxe1

                Actually it can be if you don’t have public health care and the employer is obliged to provide health insurance

            • bad12

              My laughter,(at you SSlands), becomes louder by the comment, you claim to be ‘an economist’ opposing raising the minimum wage, when called upon to explain real world facts as opposed to your childish economics 101 you resort to the pathetic,

              Where have i suggested any such cause and effect??? i simply point out the obvious, i cannot be responsible for what from here seems like a serious intellectual disability on your part, i simply ask you as the economist you claim to be for an explanation,

              The fact that you cannot give that explanation simply points to the fact that you havn’t got a f**king clue,

              While you consider your reply also consider this in conjunction with the real world FACTS about Nevada and Vermont,

              ”In Florida where voters approved an increase,(to the minimum wage),in 2004, a follow-up comprehensive study confirms a strong economy with increased employment above previous years in Florida and better than the US as a whole”,

              According to you SSLands jobs by the thousands should have been destroyed by Florida raising the minimum wage,

              Obviously jobs by the thousands were not destroyed and actual FACT says employment increased…

              • Jackal

                I’ve never understood the reasoning behind the claims that business owners will employ more people because wages are lower? Businesses employ the least amount of people they can to get the job done, no more and no less.

                On the other hand, more people are employed when there is more demand for goods and services. Creating that demand is a case of people having enough finances to purchase the things they require. Invariably, increasing wages therefore increases employment by increasing demand for goods and services.

                A business owner doesn’t one day look at his accounts and say, “I’ve got all this money, why don’t I just employ some more people” if there is no increased demand for what they are producing. Instead they keep that money as profit while trying to get their employees to work harder for peanuts.

                The reasoning behind the claim that higher wages will cause job losses is highly flawed. There is simply not enough available information from every single private business in New Zealand to show whether they will be able to afford the same amount of employees with increased wages or not. The increased demand for their goods and services and subsequent increased profit is obviously not being factored into the governments calculations.

                Besides, the companies that do provide information about their finances are continuing to post huge profits, much of which simply goes overseas. Considering the available information, there is no evidence that increased wages will cause any job losses at all. It is a myth predicated by those who have a vested interest in keeping wages low.

                • Rogue Trooper

                  nods head.scratches ear.

                • miravox

                  Thoughtful summary there, Jackal.

                • SpaceMonkey

                  I had a similar conversation with a owner of a bar last week… he was stating that if he couldn’t pay the minimum wage, he wouldn’t be able to trade. I put it to him that when everyone is doing that you run the risk of customers not having enough disposable to purchase your goods and services.

                  The fact is, you’ve got to keep the money going round, otherwise it’s like a game of Monopoly. If you want the game to keep going, you forgive people their debts from time to time to keep the money flowing. If you don’t… you run them into the ground until game over!

                • North

                  Perfect Jackal.

              • do you hire minimum wage employees..?..srylands..?

                ..or do you have shares in corporations that rely on those govt wage-subsidies for their workers..

                ..as a key part of their business-model..?

                ..in short..do you have any personal pecuniary-interest..

                ..in keeping the minimum-wage level at slave-rates..?

                ..because..if you have a brain..

                ..you will know that the fastest/best way to stimulate an economy..

                ..is to pay those who have least..more..

                ..for the simple-economic reasons that about 100% of that money will instantly churn back into the economy/retailers’ tills..

                ..you do know that/have grasped that simple econnomics-101-fact..eh..?


                ..phillip ure

            • vto

              ha ha, you’re defeating yourself again.

              You are very happy for people to be treated as a tradeable commodity, like plastic buckets produced by a factory somewhere it doesn’t matter. Capital is the most important thing in the whole entire world, labour is subservient and must take a position secondary to the needs and lusts of capital.

              Tell me srylands, if you had to choose a world with no capital or a world with no labour, which would you choose?

          • bad12

            While i consider Slippery the Prime Minister to be an ’empty suitcase of intellectual rigor’ you SSlands could only hope to rise to being ‘an empty garbage bag of simpering stupidity’

            (a), you shouldn’t let your brain run ahead of your fingers, and (b), when as you obviously have your brain and digits do become hopelessly out control the Standard provides to you an edit function which even for one such as you lacking in the basics of intelligence should be a breeze to use…

  13. ianmac 15

    Suppose it depends on whether you are dropping the bombs or being bombed.
    Like as in “they” use snipers but “we” just have sharpshooters.

  14. tc 16

    Let’s play CT spot the difference: from the Oz Liberals election campaign….from crikey’s subscriber service.

    ‘Abbott says he wants to be an “infrastructure prime minister”. More accurately, he wants to be a roads prime minister. The majority of the Coalition’s infrastructure spending will be on regional roads, which has always been the Coalition’s idea of infrastructure. In Mitchell’s logic, apparently, NBN = bad infrastructure, roads = good infrastructure.’ from Crikey and mitchell is an Aus Fin Review journo.

    And who wins from the Coalition, apart from National electorates? The tax rorters of the novated lease industry. High-income earners via Abbott’s paid parental leave (PPL) scheme. Those Liberal Party loyalists, self-funded retirees, who might be unhappy about the impact on dividends of the PPL scheme. The mining industry.

    So, the Coalition has declined to take any politically difficult savings decisions, preferring to target sectors with little political clout, or people in other countries. And it has rewarded its perceived friends, those who are already doing very well, thank you.

    No one expects oppositions to sign up to a slate of politically suicidal cuts, but the Coalition’s priorities suggest the “tough decisions” it makes will merely be tough on those who pose no political threat, and that the “age of entitlement” is opening up again, after Labor wore so much grief for trying to curb it marginally while in office.’

    Sound familiar people.

  15. bad12 17

    Slippery the Prime Minister is being quoted in the Herald online this morning as saying He has timed His next foreign sojourn so as to be in the House for the first Question time for Labour’s new leader,

    i assume that is going to be David Cunliffe, and my view is that Cunliffe should burst the Slippery little shysters bubble by completely ignoring Him,

    A better tactic for Cunliffe would be to deliberately target Judith Collins with all his questions for that day, leaving Slippery sitting in the Chamber twiddling His thumbs with the added insinuation that it’s probably better to ask the upcoming leader of National the questions than the out-going one…

    • miravox 17.1

      Haha – good idea.

      • Pascal's bookie 17.1.1

        lol! But nah, it’d be portrayed as cowardice.

        I’d hammer him with questions about his trip. esp the UN speech, tie it to his comments from back when Helen declined to Bush the Lesser’s adventure in Iraq.

        • Greywarbler

          Bush the Lesser lolz. The Shrub.

        • bad12

          Lolz, Cunliffe could always slip in the line with one of His supplementry’s, ” i’ve got your number and will be dialing it next time i don’t want a question answered with other than froth”…

        • Winston Smith

          I’d suggest that the Cunliffe groupies might not want to build up their expectations quite so much, that Cunliffe may not be the messiah after all and to give him some time to settle in and deal with the real enemy (ie his own caucus) before trying to handle the most popular PM of the post-MMP era

          But I’m guessing it’d fall on deaf ears

          • bad12

            Here’s a small equation, David Cunliffe leader of the Labour Party= + 4% Labour Party vote @ 2014 election,

            Result= empty suitcase of intellectual rigor AKA Slippery the Prime Minister= g, gg, GONE…

            • Winston Smith

              Heres something to consider:

              Cullen, Clark, Goff, Campbell and Shearer were all defeated/seen off/careers ended/beaten whatever way you want to put it by John Key, hes formidable without a doubt

              I’m saying don’t get your hopes up so high because Cunliffe may not live up to them…of course he might also exceed them

              • vto

                W Smith you are letting your blinkers get in the way of clear view of history. Those politicians were turfed out by factors far greater and more prevalent than merely John Key. They were turfed out because; one, they had been in for three terms; two, people were tired of the PC stuff; three, people were tired of being told how to live their life to such an extent; four, they were too bland themselves; five, on it goes.

                To suggest that John Key alone was responsible for the demise of these people paints you as the groupie here.

                Smith and Key
                Up a tree
                k i s s i n g

              • felix

                What utter nonsense Winston.

                1. Cullen presided over finance in Lab4 before, during and after Key’s go at the portfolio.

                2. Clark would’ve been likely been voted out whether or not Key was in the picture – the public had tired of her after 3 terms, as they’re now tiring of Key after 2.

                3. Campbell? WTF?

                4. Shearer was ousted from within. You’ve been talking about that for two years.

                5. Goff you get. Beat him by a whopping margin of 10,000 votes.

                Whoop de doo.

          • miravox

            “the post-MMP era”

            I guess that’s true for Canterbury and Christchurch seeing as there hasn’t been another PM since voting rights were removed there. Shows what an undemocratic piece of work Key is.

          • felix

            Most popular? Don’t think he’s ever reached Helen’s heights. Not likely to either at the rate he’s going.

            Agree though about Cunliffe. Or Robertson, whomever it may be.

            The task ahead actually has Sweet. Fuck. All. to do with besting John Key in parliament. If it were that simple, your namesake (or the ginge) would’ve been PM long ago.

          • Pasupial


            That “most popular PM” line is getting a bit past its use-by date – maybe; “once most popular”, would be more accurate now. Bush the lesser (hat-tip PB) had once been popular in the polls too, but not at the end.

            There’s just one poll that matters, and we’ll see what that says by the end of 2014.

    • geoff 17.2

      Love it.

    • felix 17.3

      Nice that he can fit an occasional visit to parliament into his busy schedule of international travel.

      Then again he is the Tourist Minister, innit.

    • North 17.4

      Bad12 you are deliciously much much badder than 12. Damn good idea you put up there. Will be an interesting day.

  16. Greywarbler 18

    Norway likely to change government from Left to Right. The left government has been in for 8 years and doing a reasonable job and the commentator couldn’t state why that should result in change. My idea is that two terms in leadership should be enough, and that would allow change to meet the wish to see a different approach from the incumbents without having to throw the Party out entirely.

    • Populuxe1 18.1

      Mainly because there has been an increased backlash in relatively monocultural, monoethnic Scandinavian and Nordic countries against economic migrants from the Near East and North Africa, and as we saw with our own previous Labour government, there is a tendency to swing back and forth. No conspiracy at all.

      • Greywarbler 18.1.1

        Who said anything about a conspiracy? Have you a parallel universe going on in your head with two different thought processes? Quantum Populuxe1 and 2. What did Pop2 think about a possible conspiracy in Norway? Is merely changing the government because of perceived weaknesses in policy to be regarded as conspiracy?

  17. James Thrace 19

    Lprent – using chrome on android and keep getting an error message saying ive exceeded the crawler rate for humans when going back to the main page from an item.

  18. Winston Smith 20

    “The “NZ’s not ready for a gay PM” is prob the biggest dog whistle I’ve ever heard. Extraordinary that it’s also coming from within the Party.”

    – I’m not sure what Claire Currans background is but I’m guessing its nothing to do with career enhancement…

    • felix 20.1

      Last desperate dying gasp.

      • Colonial Viper 20.1.1

        She hasn’t put out a tweet for 18 hours now. After about 20 tweets in the 24 hours before that.

        I’m guessing someone had a little chat to her.

        • veutoviper

          I could not believe her tweets etc re Robertson yesterday – but then again, I can…

          When I read the link provided last night to her tweets, I also noticed another one that really stood out for me and left me gobsmacked.

          This on 8 Sept (a quote only as I could not seem to copy it as I am not very good on Twitter things)

          “Will be reading TICS Bill closely. R there implications for NZ?”

          Sorry, but “WILL be reading it closely” and “are there implications for NZ”. The TICS Bill is nearing the end of its select committee process with the report back from the Law and Order Committee on 20 Sept.

          FGS Curran is the Labour spokesperson on telecommunications etc and while not on the Law and Order Committee, should have read the TICS Bill inside out by now and realise the implications!

          • phillip ure

            + 1..

            ..are you sure you are correct..?..

            ..if so..curran has forfeited any right to that spokesperson-role..

            ..and if considering that bill not important enough to bother about until now..?

            ..curran needs/desrves to be moved to the furtherest backbench..

            ..that is dereliction of basic duties of epic-proportions..

            ..and you hafta ask..w.t.f. does she do all day..?

            …and should we ask her to write a job-description of her actual role/job..?

            ..’cos if not to be on top of/all over the likes of this…what is curran expected to do..?

            ..i’d fire her..

            ..and get someone who is competent/wants to do the job..

            phillip ure..

            • veutoviper

              @ phillip ure
              “..are you sure you are correct..?..”

              For the record, here is the link to Curran’s tweet of 8 Sept

              The things you do at 4.20am when the wind is blowing and you cannot sleep!

              EDIT – the link is to Curran’s Twitter account. The actual tweet re the TICS Bill is number 14 of her many 8 Sept tweets, scrolling downwards.

        • Rogue Trooper

          premature withdrawal symptoms

        • Cemetery Jones

          And now it turns out that the comments she referred to weren’t from the current leadership contest at all, but she implied that it was connected with the Cunliffe campaign as a deliberate smear effort. Shame on her.

          She deserves her in place in Labour Party history as the first MP who has sunk to that level of desperation in this first ever leadership race. More slander to come from the ABC crew?

        • Hami Shearlie

          She’s obviously “zipping it sweetie” at the moment – Kinda think she’s left that a bit late!!

        • North

          Like our mate Takere the Shane Jones cheerleader. Not a whisper from Takere in the last week. Wonder who had a smoko-room chat with Takere ?

  19. tricledrown 21

    Good one bad 12 a republican politician visited NZ recently
    Claimed that all republican states were growing faster than democrat lead states .
    A complete lie the reverse is the truth.

  20. tricledrown 22

    Be very wary Poncekey
    Is going to Australia to be reprogramed by crosby texter,
    The lizards of Oz!
    Then He is going to china to get a new coat of teflon.
    Then off to visit the queen to line up his knighthood!

    • Hami Shearlie 22.1

      He’ll probably leave his old shed skin as a going away present for the Queen – Snakeskin shoes anyone? – there’ll be enough for a matching handbag, surely??

    • North 22.2

      The wit on here tonight is great ! Happy to have the feast capped off by a magnificently shrew comment from that s(or)ry lands fulla.

  21. Half Crown 24

    Another lie by Key

    He has claimed that Helen Clark agreed with John Howard’s 2001 draconian conditions for New Zealanders entering Australia for work after 2001.


    See face book of ozkiwi. and


    Phil Goff earlier in the year sought leave to table a document which shows restrictions to future access to benefits and citizenship for New Zealanders living in Australia were outside the bilateral agreement. (Hansard 14th Feb 2013)

    When is Key going to start telling the truth and how can we expect our kids to grow up as honest citizens when he lies though his teeth on the hour and the half hour.

    • um..!..half crown..

      ..i seem to remember st the time wondering at the seeming no protest then or later..from clark..

      ..at that tearing away of nz’ers’ rights in oz..

      ..do you have actual links proving yr case..?

      ..’cos an article on key/abbott and some hansard piece from 2013 about goff trying to post some papers on the record..

      ..doesn’t really cut it as a defence..

      ..and speaking of defence..are you really trying to defend the wholesale sellouts of that last l(neo-lib-consensus) abour govt..?

      ..i don’t have the time/inclination to list them all right now..

      ..but i am sure you have a rough idea of what i speak..eh..?

      ..this sellout of what should have been fought tooth and nail against..

      ..is just one of a long list/litany..eh..?

      ..phillip ure..

  22. FYI

    URGENT! Press Release from Auckland Mayoral candidate Penny Bright:

    ” Auckland Council must NOT act precipitiously and ratify or be a signatory to the Auckland Housing Accord.

    10 September 2013

    Press Release from Auckland Mayoral candidate Penny Bright:

    ” Auckland Council must NOT ratify or be a signatory to the Auckland Housing Accord, when my request for the LAWFULNESS of it’s evidential base for projected population growth is to be considered at the next meeting of the Social Services Select Committee, on Friday 13 September 2013,” says Auckland Mayoral candidate, Penny Bright.

    “The Clerk of the Social Services Select Committee has just advised me, this morning, that my request for their Report on the following Petition 2011/64

    Requesting that Parliament declines to proceed with the Housing Accords and Special Housing Areas Bill until the lawfulness of the reliance of Auckland Council on the New Zealand Department of Statistics’ “high” population growth projections, instead of their “medium” population growth projections for the Auckland Spatial Plan, has been properly and independently investigated, taking into consideration that both Auckland Transport and Watercare Services Ltd, have relied upon “medium” population growth projections for their infrastructural asset management plans. ”

    to be reviewed, will be put before them at their next meeting, to be held this Friday 13 September 2013.”

    “As an Auckland Mayoral candidate, I hereby call for Mayor Len Brown and Auckland Councillors, NOT to act precipitiously, and to NOT ratify or be a signatory to the Auckland Housing Accord.”


    28 August 2013:

    Auckland Mayoral candidate Penny Bright: Auckland Draft Unitary Plan: URGENT ‘Open Letter’ to the Social Services Select Committee c/- Chair Peseta Sam Lotu-Iiga

    Members of the Social Services Select Committee,

    Social Services Chairperson Lotu-Iiga, Peseta Sam National Party, Maungakiekie
    Social Services Deputy-Chairperson Lee, Melissa National Party, List
    Social Services Member Ardern, Jacinda Labour Party, List
    Social Services Member Heatley, Phil National Party, Whangarei
    Social Services Member Logie, Jan Green Party, List
    Social Services Member Lole-Taylor, Asenati NZ First, List
    Social Services Member Ngaro, Alfred National Party, List
    Social Services Member Prasad, Rajen Labour Party, List
    Social Services Member Sabin, Mike National Party, Northland
    Social Services Member Twyford, Phil Labour Party, Te Atatu
    Social Services Member Woodhouse, Michael National Party, List

    Please be advised that Auckland Council will be starting deliberations on the Draft Auckland Unitary Plan, today Wednesday 28 August 2013.

    The ‘mantra’ that the estimated population of Auckland “is projected to increase by one million over the next 30 years”, is repeated in the following ‘Draft Unitary Plan’:




    1.3 Our growing population

    Auckland is growing rapidly.

    Since 2001 Auckland’s growth has been higher than other regions in New Zealand.

    The estimated population of Auckland in 2011 was 1,486,000 and is projected to increase by one million over the next 30 years.


    As you are well aware, the LAWFULNESS of the use of this ‘high’ population growth projection, I challenged, in the following petition:

    Petition 2011/64

    Requesting that Parliament declines to proceed with the Housing Accords and Special Housing Areas Bill until the lawfulness of the reliance of Auckland Council on the New Zealand Department of Statistics’ “high” population growth projections, instead of their “medium” population growth projections for the Auckland Spatial Plan, has been properly and independently investigated, taking into consideration that both Auckland Transport and Watercare Services Ltd, have relied upon “medium” population growth projections for their infrastructural asset management plans.

    I provided extensive, researched evidence, (as you requested),in support of this petition:


    Date: 14 June 2013 SUBMITTER: Penelope Bright


    However, the Report of the Social Services Select Committee, did not focus on the ‘LAWFULNESS’ of the reliance of the Auckland Council Mayor Len Brown, and Chief Planning Officer Dr Roger Blakeley’s use of the Department of Statistics ‘high’, rather than ‘medium’ population growth projection, you focused on the apparent ‘REASONABLENESS’ of so doing.

    “We consider that the response to this issue provided by the council appears reasonable, and therefore have no matters to bring to the attention of the House. ”


    The Social Services Committee has considered Petition 2011/64 of Penelope Mary Bright, requesting that Parliament decline to proceed with the Housing Accords and Special Housing Areas Bill until the lawfulness of the reliance of Auckland Council on the New Zealand Department of Statistics “high” population growth projections, instead of
    their “medium” population growth projections for the Auckland Spatial Plan, has been properly and independently investigated, taking into consideration that both Auckland Transport and Watercare Services Ltd, have relied upon “medium” population growth projections for their infrastructural asset management plans.

    We heard and received evidence from the petitioner, but note that the matters she raised have been addressed publicly by the Auckland Council in statements posted on its website and issued to media.

    The Auckland Council’s Chief Planning Officer has said that while Auckland may not grow by one million people by 2041 (the high-growth projection), Auckland Council is preparing for it. The city has historically met the high-growth projection, and it is therefore prudent for the council to plan accordingly. He said that the city needs to be prepared for, and
    infrastructure needs to be able to cope with, growth. He pointed out that the “Unitary Plan”, which is a part of the Auckland Spatial Plan, sets out only rules for development.

    We understand that actual development would be undertaken only in response to demand.

    Regarding the use of alternative projections for higher- and lower-growth scenarios, we note that the council’s Chief Planning Officer has also said that it is prudent for the Auckland Council to provide for the highest likely population growth, and at the same time to be cautious to avoid over-investment. He said that the council requires organisations it owns or controls to be cautious about capital spending ahead of time to avoid high borrowing, interest, and depreciation costs, and that any underspending on infrastructure could be addressed through regular budget reviews and incremental expansion of facilities such as wastewater treatment plants.

    The Mayor of Auckland has also said that using the high-growth projection was the appropriate thing to do, and that the council should not be too conservative in their assumptions about population growth.

    We consider that the response to this issue provided by the council appears reasonable, and therefore have no matters to bring to the attention of the House.

    Melissa Lee
    Deputy Chairperson ”

    On 7 August 2013, I made an oral submission by a telephone conference call to the Social Services Select Committee on the related matter of the ‘Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill’, and made the following points:

    “You MPs are a Select Cttee of the Highest Court of the land.

    Please be reminded of the Oath of Allegiance which you swear or affirm before becoming a Member of the NZ House of Parliament:

    The Oath, in its present form, is:

    “I, [name], swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.”

    NZ House of Parliament is where the LAW is made.

    Should I as a citizen not be able to expect that those of you who MAKE the Law – will uphold the Law that you have made?

    Otherwise – what is the point of you being there?

    What is the purpose of the NZ Parliament if you are not going to uphold the laws you make?

    Why I am raising this is because the Social Housing Reform (Housing Restructuring and Tenancy Matters Amendment) Bill is directly-related matter to the Housing Accords and Special Housing Areas Bill.

    Both are based upon the million extra people coming to Auckland in the 30 years mantra, for which I provided EVIDENCE that this was not ‘evidentially-based).”


    I asked you to please reconsider your (above-mentioned) decision.

    As Members of Parliament of the ‘highest Court in the land’ – how meaningful is the ‘Rule of Law’, which you help make, if you arguably do not follow it yourselves?

    Please be reminded that the ‘Rule of Law’ that applies to the Auckland (Spatial) Plan, which the Auckland Unitary Plan is supposed to implement, is covered by the Local Government (Auckland Council) Act 2009:

    79Spatial plan for Auckland

    (1)The Auckland Council must prepare and adopt a spatial plan for Auckland.

    (4)The spatial plan must—

    (c)provide an evidential base to support decision making for Auckland, including evidence of trends, opportunities, and constraints within Auckland; and

    Please confirm that you will URGENTLY review and reconsider your above-mentioned decision,

    “We consider that the response to this issue provided by the council appears reasonable, and therefore have no matters to bring to the attention of the House. ”

    and base it upon the ‘Rule of Law’ which directly applies in this case, the above-mentioned Local Government (Auckland Council) Act 2009, s79 (4) (c).

    In my considered opinion, there will be a significant number of Aucklanders, who will be very interested in your response to this matter.

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption /anti-privatisation’ campaigner

    2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate


  23. Tigger 26


    “Aucklanders driving to beach homes east of Warkworth stand to cut almost 16 minutes off holiday weekend trips via a $760 million motorway extension.”

    Definitely wins my award for most wankerish opening paragraph in the Herald so far this week.

  24. Macro 27

    And as Australia sets about to trash their carbon tax – and NZ becomes a “fast follower” of our trading partners with respect to tackling GHG emissions and our ETS is the laughing stock of the western world…
    meanwhile…. In British Columbia …. despite a year long attack by the tories on the 5 year old carbon tax a recent report on the economy and its effects shows that it’s a winner.

    “Thanks to the carbon tax BC residents enjoy the lowest income tax in the country (not Albertans), use the least amount of fuel per person and have arguably the healthiest economy the study found. So much for the Tories baseless claims of doom and gloom.”

    Thanks Ardern for your red necked, stick in the mud, troglodyte, neanderthal, stupid behaviour that led to the trashing of our Carbon tax…


  25. I see that Key is off to stay with thea Queen for a few days.Now I do wonder if he will come back as Sir John . Do not be surprised if he does.

  26. I see that Key is off to stay with thea Queen for a few days.Now I do wonder if he will come back as Sir John . Do not be surprised if he does.

    • Ron 29.1

      wow great minds think alike down to the minute

    • Populuxe1 29.2

      Rubbish. He doesn’t have to go to the Queen for that. New Zealand honours are based on the recomendation of the Honours Secretariat of the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet and the Queen signs off. Most PMs get them as a matter of course unless they are staunchly against that sort of thing.

      • travellerev 29.2.1

        Maybe it has something to do with the fact that he scammed the NZ population to cough up to prop up Rio Tinto with $ 30 million of tax money and the promise to sell every f&*king publicly owned asset to her and her mates for next to nothing by bankrupting this country though an investment of $112 Billion in derivatives? I reckon he’s been a good boy!

      • Ron 29.2.2

        But normally when they retire. And of course the Queen is at liberty to award an honour on the English list instead of NZ list.

        Rubbish. He doesn’t have to go to the Queen for that. New Zealand honours are based on the recomendation of the Honours Secretariat of the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet and the Queen signs off. Most PMs get them as a matter of course unless they are staunchly against that sort of thing.

      • North 29.2.3

        You did say “…..Department of Prime Minister….” there Pops ?

    • Macro 29.3

      Robbie Burns would have had something to say on all that…

      “Ye see yon birkie, ca’d a lord,
      Wha struts, an’ stares, an’ a’ that;
      Tho’ hundreds worship at his word,
      He’s but a coof for a’ that:
      For a’ that, an’ a’ that,
      His ribband, star, an’ a’ that:
      The man o’ independent mind
      He looks an’ laughs at a’ that.

      A prince can mak a belted knight,
      A marquis, duke, an’ a’ that;
      But an honest man’s abon his might,
      Gude faith, he maunna fa’ that!
      For a’ that, an’ a’ that,
      Their dignities an’ a’ that;
      The pith o’ sense, an’ pride o’ worth,
      Are higher rank than a’ that.

      Then let us pray that come it may,
      (As come it will for a’ that,)
      That Sense and Worth, o’er a’ the earth,
      Shall bear the gree, an’ a’ that.
      For a’ that, an’ a’ that,
      It’s coming yet for a’ that,
      That Man to Man, the world o’er,
      Shall brothers be for a’ that.”

      218 years old and still as fresh and pertinent today as it has ever been.

  27. Ron 30

    Anyone any idea why Liz is requesting the company of John & Family at Balmoral.
    According to media this is very very rare and apart from the British PM almost never happens.
    The mind boggles as to what can be in store.
    arise Sir Slippery
    or maybe she is going to make him a baron, Robber Baron would be appropriate
    or she wants some advice on investment??

    All suggestions gratefully received

    • maybe key is making a deal to sell nz lock stock and barrel to the windsors..?

      ..’cos they know enough that they know they are going to need a bolthole..?..eh..?

      ..they could grab their armed forces..and decamp here..

      ..and of course any deal done by key/windsors could/would be enforced by those ‘armed-forces’..?

      ..or..of course..key could just be a fellow reptiliaan-shapeshifter..

      ..and they are just having a shapeshifting get-together..

      ..take yr pick..

      ..phillip ure..

  28. risildowgtn 31

    More workers laid off…
    They plan to import pens from South Africa

    Time to start boycotting the companies that pull this crap……


  29. Ron 32

    Sorry to see Jenny made a scapegoat even though I understand DC being very careful.
    Still only a few days to go

    • Zorr 32.1

      She would only be a “scapegoat” if the campaign had made that comment and she had been the one to wear the results

      As it was, she made the comment personally and has justifiably been stood down as it was inappropriate for her to have made that comment in the larger context of being a part of DC’s campaign

      • Ad 32.1.1

        She’s a seasoned campaigning soldier who will be back for another political battle another day. It’s in her blood.

        • Zorr


          But after actually having been made aware of the timeline of the incident in relation to the campaign and the role of Clare Curran in actively digging up irrelevant dirt to fling


          I applaud Cunliffe for making the tough (but correct, imo) decision to stand down Jenny to cut any ridiculous complaints off at the knees and I hope that she is soon returned to the front lines.

          And I hope that if he becomes the leader of Labour that this example of his strictness with his own people is just a taste of how tough and controlled he could be if he is the one leading Labour in to 2014 and maintaining a laser like focus on the message and attacking John Key rather than this bullshit that Clare feels she needs to bring up to muddy the waters.

  30. Colonial Viper 34

    Kiwi Bank seizes teachers money using Terrorism Act


    Confidence inspiring – NOT.

  31. Morrissey 35

    Unlike the alleged chemical weapon attacks in Syria, there is absolutely no doubt as to the perpetrators of these chemical weapon attacks in Vietnam. Any plans to bomb their country? Just to send them a clear message….

    London surgeons carry out life-changing surgery on children of Vietnam victims
    by KIRAN RANDHAWA, Evening Standard, 9 September 2013

    Ten London doctors have carried out life-changing surgery on children born with horrific deformities caused by chemicals used in the Vietnam war. Surgeons travelled to the country’s port city of Da Nang, where they spent two weeks helping Vietnamese youngsters who are battling serious ailments caused by the herbicide Agent Orange. The chemical was sprayed by US soldiers during the war, which lasted from 1955 to 1975. According to the Vietnamese Red Cross, 150,000 cases of birth defects can be linked to its use.

    One of the London doctors, Niall Kirkpatrick, said Vietnam would “struggle with this problem for a number of years”. The Chelsea and Westminster Hospital plastic surgeon said Da Nang, in central Vietnam, “has the highest incidence of congenital deformity in the world, thought to be due to Agent Orange in the Vietnam war. If we had the same amount of congenital deformity in the UK it would bankrupt the NHS. The dioxin is geno-toxic so that once it enters the population gene pool then it’s passed on through generations and it takes a long time before it stops.”

    The team, from Chelsea and Westminster and Guy’s Hospital, travelled with the charity Facing the World. Their latest mission, which was in May, is documented in the BBC’s Inside Out show….

    Read more….

    • beGone Craven Spy Bill leopard 35.1

      @ Morrissey,

      Did the perpetrators of that atrocity ever have their country bombed the shit out of? Any geneva convention war tribunals? Anything?

      • Morrissey 35.1.1

        Of course not. And they have not paid one cent in reparations. President Carter was pressed on that matter once, and he loftily dismissed the notion, claiming that suffering occurred “on both sides”.

        • beGone Craven Spy Bill leopard

          …Yeah, I didn’t think so 🙁

          (and reparations was going to be my next question! …)

          Repugnant behaviour, America, Repugnant

          • Pasupial

            And that’s without mentioning the continuing use of Depleted Uranium as a tank-zapper/ mutation-inducer. But that’s in no way chemical or nuclear warfare apparently…

            Tired of having to contain your radioactive toxic waste? Just salt it on the ground of your enemies and watch their children become disfigured for your expediency.

      • GregJ 35.1.2

        See my above about the Geneva Protocols to the Hague Convention.

        The US gave themselves plenty of “cover” over the use of Agent Orange. The US signed in 1925 but didn’t ratify the Protocol until 1975 & it was disputed until 1968 as to whether “chemical herbicides” such as Agent Orange were even covered by the Protocol (US being the main opponent of including it – naturally).

        • Ad

          If only the United States – particualrly Professor of Law Barack Obama – would alow itself to be held to account in the World Criminal Court, precisely within the Conventions it’s bleating on about relentlessly now.

          Hopefully President Obama’s impending defeat by Congress will strengthen the hand of the UN in generating multilateral responses and shame those who continuously expect the World’s Great Policeman to restore universal moral order for the entire planet.

          • GregJ

            Yep – but it ain’t gonna happen (and Obama was probably the most likely to do so – Lord help us in the future!)

          • beGone Craven SpyBill leopard


            Yes, it would create some real credibility for what is acceptable and what is unacceptable behaviour if the US and Britain would subject their war criminals to the World Criminal Court (is that it’s correct name?!). That this is not occurring makes any international guidelines a complete farce.

            • vto

              If all nations banned conventional and nuclear warfare in the same way as chemical warfare is banned then we will begin to get somewhere…
              … you will never get the big boys in the playground to lead that though just as well they don’t need to lead

        • beGone Craven SpyBill leopard

          @Greg J

          Isn’t the same thing going on with Uranium depleted weapons too; they don’t come under ‘chemical weapons’ yet?

          • GregJ

            Yes – DU & White Phosporus would not be regarded as Chemical Weapons unless they are used specifically for their chemical/toxic effect. DU is principally used for its kinetic properties & White Phosporus for its smoke and incendiary effects (incendiaries are covered by the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons). Neither are classed as toxic. The Chemical Weapons Convention defines a “toxic chemical” as a chemical “which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm to humans or animals” (CWC, II). An annex to the CWC lists chemicals that fall under this definition and WP & DU are not listed in the Schedules of chemical weapons or precursors.

            • beGone Craven Spy Bill leopard

              I was trying to remember the name of white phosphorous! That might be the substance that is causing those deformities in Fallujah. Horrible that neither UD nor WPh are considered toxic, it seems to me that in Fallujah the killing won’t stop for many decades to come due to their usage.

              You have a lot of knowledge of those guidelines/laws, cheers for sharing GregJ, very interesting (and revolting, yet that is not your fault!)

  32. “thought you had deserted us”

    Like the living will of the legend of King Arthur, me 😉

    Been sick, got better, and now ready for all manner of assorted f*cknuggetry and chimera.
    Viva (R)evolution. 😀

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