Open Mike 10/10/2017

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 10th, 2017 - 85 comments
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85 comments on “Open Mike 10/10/2017”

  1. Patricia Bremner 1

    Sadly, I now think Winston will go with National. He said these negotiations are like 1996, because of circumstances. The Green’s power in coalition is a risk factor which could be a stumbling block as it was with the Alliance.

    • Bearded Git 1.2

      NZF did have 2 meetings with the Nats and only one with Labour yesterday…..but he will go with Labour.

    • Carolyn_nth 1.3

      It may be for the best of the left in the long run for NZF to go with the Nats.

      There’s no telling how that will end, but change may be a-coming – if the continued developments of Corbyn’s Labour is any indication:

      Corbyn calls for the re-nationalisation of public utilities.

      A Nat-NZF government, will curtail a lot of neoliberal policy. Meanwhile, it may give NZ Labour and the GP time to strengthen and build a stronger new direction.

    • Enough is Enough 1.4

      The fact that the Green Party is not involved in talks is very suspicious. How can the left form a coalition government in the next 48 hours if the 3 parties have not had formal talks together yet.

      Either the Greens are going to be locked out of government, and will have a confidence and supply agreement only (which will be a disaster); or

      Winston is only talking to Labour to get as much out of National as possible.

      The longer this goes on without the Greens been at the table, the more my concern grows

      • Carolyn_nth 1.4.1

        It may not be in the GP’s best interest to be too strongly involved with NZF in a coalition. Their long term interests may be best served with a C & S arrangement.

        • Enough is Enough 1.4.1.1

          Perhaps.

          But is it in New Zealand’s best interest that they stay out of government? Certainly not.

          The country desperately needs them in the cabinet room, next week. Not in 10 years time

      • It could be that NZ1st is negotiating C&S rather than formal coalition. I.e, Either National or Labour/Greens in government and NZ1st sitting on the cross benches supporting which policies that they like.

        • Enough is Enough 1.4.2.1

          Yep agreed.

          However I still can’t see how Winston could support the left bloc on C&S if he isn’t talking to one of those left bloc partners.

          Is Labour just going to front up on Thursday with a deal and say to the Greens, here it is James, take it or leave it?

          Don’t the Greens also need to consult with their members before making a decision. How can that take place in Winston’s timeframe. Weka am I correct on that point?

          • Draco T Bastard 1.4.2.1.1

            However I still can’t see how Winston could support the left bloc on C&S if he isn’t talking to one of those left bloc partners.

            He could be talking to the Greens via Labour. After all, Labour and the Greens do have that MoU.

            Is Labour just going to front up on Thursday with a deal and say to the Greens, here it is James, take it or leave it?

            That would be discussions between labour and the Greens which have been ongoing for some time.

            Don’t the Greens also need to consult with their members before making a decision. How can that take place in Winston’s timeframe.

            The Greens have set up a process to do that.

          • Carolyn_nth 1.4.2.1.2

            Peters has just said he/NZF would make a decision by the 12th. There could be further negotiations after that decision.

            NZ Herald reported on 9 October:

            The deadline isn’t set in stone. He chose it because October 12 is Return of the Writ Day – the final legal step in the electoral cycle.

            There’s nothing that says a government must be formed by then.

            Should National or Labour, or both, decide they need more time for their decision-making processes they could ask Peters to extend it.
            Then it would be their fault.

            • Draco T Bastard 1.4.2.1.2.1

              Yep, that sounds like Winston and many other people on the right-wing – trying to bypass any responsibility for their own actions.

              And that article was actually from the 6th of October.

          • veutoviper 1.4.2.1.3

            Labour are in direct discussion/negotiations with the Greens.

            There is some suggestion that this started last week; but this week they have been quite open about these negotiations and they have been reported in the media.

            For example, yesterday Labour and Greens had negotiations in the morning while National was in negotiations with NZF. Today, Labour are expected to meet with Greens about now or early afternoon; again while National and NZF are talking.

            Both Jacinda Ardern and Winston Peters have made statements that there will not be three around the table negotiations and this is not appropriate. Labour, as the lead party in any coalition that is formed, will negotiate separately with the other two parties.

            This is no different from the procedure used by National in previous years in negotiating support agreements with United Future, ACT and the Maori Party. They did separate and confidential negotiations with each of those parties. There were no ‘around the table’ negotiations with two or more of these parties present.

          • veutoviper 1.4.2.1.4

            Don’t the Greens also need to consult with their members before making a decision. How can that take place in Winston’s timeframe. Weka am I correct on that point?

            Further to my comments at 1.4.2.1.3 and link at 1.4.2.1.3.1 re the procedures being used in the negotiations including those between Labour and the GP, the link below is to Stuff’s live blog/article on today’s negotiations.

            The first video currently is Jame Shaw replying to questions from the media about the GP/Labour negotiations and on the Greens’ procedures in relation to the timeframe set by Winston etc. Hopefuly this will give you some reassurance that the GP is part of the overall negotiations and that they seem to think that their procedures can cope.

            https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/97721263/day-three-of-negotiations–nz-first-and-labour-up-first-then-national

            EDIT Video is now further down.

            • veutoviper 1.4.2.1.4.1

              And from the Herald’s live blog/comments on today’s negotiations, here is their summary of James Shaw’s comments on the procedures:

              http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11931486

              Green Party leader James Shaw says the party’s need for a 75 per cent approval from the party membership should not hold up any potential coalition deal.

              On his way to a meeting with the Labour Party, Shaw said the party could call a special general meeting “pretty quickly” to seek the 75 per cent mandate.

              Asked if the process might hold up a potential deal between Labour, New Zealand First and the Greens, he said: “I shouldn’t think so.”

              The Greens have set up a reference group that Shaw said had been invaluable. The group is the link between the negotiating team and the membership, and will decide how best to present the terms of any potential agreement to the party delegates.

              The delegates would not have a chance to alter any of the terms during a special general meeting, which could be held online.

              A membership vote would not necessarily take place. The party’s constitution says that a vote can be taken “if consensus on a motion is not achieved after reasonable attempts”. This would happen if, for example, a party delegate blocked the motion.

              Shaw said it was realistic, but not guaranteed, to have the process done by Thursday.
              “I should think so, but as I’ve said before, the process takes as long as it takes. A day here or there is no big deal.”

            • weka 1.4.2.1.4.2

              That video is misleading. The implication is that the Greens will also decide on Thurs. I can’t see that happening. I wish people would stop framing all this as Thurs being when govt is decided. Thurs is when Peters has said he will decide. He doesn’t determine what other parties do, and the media shouldn’t be trying to either.

              • veutoviper

                Presumably you wrote your comment after checking the Stuff link at 1.4.2.1.4 which contains a number of videos and is everchanging.

                I did not find the video of Shaw himself talking to the media misleading. You may not have seen my follow-up comment at 1.4.2.1.4.1 (now immediately above your response), which quotes the Herald live blog summarising Shaw’s comments setting out the detailed process as he explained it to the media. This includes:

                Shaw said it was realistic, but not guaranteed, to have the process done by Thursday.
                “I should think so, but as I’ve said before, the process takes as long as it takes. A day here or there is no big deal.”

                This full quote, as well as the last bit I have again quoted, is what Shaw himself said, and he presumably knows the Green Party process far better than anyone else.

                • weka

                  Which process would be done by Thurs? The Party has to do a deal, then give the deal to the membership, then the delegates have to talk at a SGM. Do you really think that can be done between Peters’ announcement on Thurs and the end of Thurs? I’m hoping that Shaw meant the deal itself would be done by Thurs, not the consulting the party bit.

                  • veutoviper

                    You don’t seem to have read the full quotein italics in my 1.4.2.1.4.1 which is a verbatim quote by the Herald of what Shaw himself said in his interview with the media late morning/early afternoon. This covers the whole process re membership, reference group, delegates, SGM etc. Here it is again.

                    Green Party leader James Shaw says the party’s need for a 75 per cent approval from the party membership should not hold up any potential coalition deal.

                    On his way to a meeting with the Labour Party, Shaw said the party could call a special general meeting “pretty quickly” to seek the 75 per cent mandate.

                    Asked if the process might hold up a potential deal between Labour, New Zealand First and the Greens, he said: “I shouldn’t think so.”

                    The Greens have set up a reference group that Shaw said had been invaluable. The group is the link between the negotiating team and the membership, and will decide how best to present the terms of any potential agreement to the party delegates.

                    The delegates would not have a chance to alter any of the terms during a special general meeting, which could be held online.

                    A membership vote would not necessarily take place. The party’s constitution says that a vote can be taken “if consensus on a motion is not achieved after reasonable attempts”. This would happen if, for example, a party delegate blocked the motion.

                    Shaw said it was realistic, but not guaranteed, to have the process done by Thursday.
                    “I should think so, but as I’ve said before, the process takes as long as it takes. A day here or there is no big deal.”

                    • weka

                      I did read that. I think the delegates need time to talk to members. Again, how can this be done in half a day on Thurs? (give deal to members, get feedback, have SGM, discuss and reach consensus, or failing that have a vote).

                    • weka

                      just checked with a couple of active members. You are right, Shaw’s timeframe will include the SGM and the party can make it’s decision that fast.

                    • veutoviper

                      To Weka below – as no reply facility.

                      If you have a problem with the process as set out by Jame Shaw – and yes I checked the Herald’s quote against the actual video of the interview – then take it up with Jame Shaw.

                      All I was doing was trying to let people know what was going on today re the negotiations. I am not even a Green member or voter – and resent being attacked by one for something their own leader has said.

                    • weka

                      I wasn’t attacking you, I was responding to the media stuff you posted. I’ve since clarified with some active members, see my comment above.

                      fwiw, there is very little I see in the MSM now that I take at face value.

              • veutoviper

                I don’t know whether you have also checked the Newshub live site linked to at my 1.4.2.1.3.1 above, but that currently contains another separate video interview of Shaw by Lloyd Burr.

                http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/election/2017/10/live-updates-coalition-talks-intensify-on-day-two.html

      • Peter 1.4.3

        Ardern comments this morning on the negotiating arrangements here.

        http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/341208/ardern-maintains-separate-negotiations

      • Bearded Git 1.4.4

        @Enough

        Not sure why a confidence and supply agreement “would be a disaster”-perhaps you are not used to political parties that keep their word?

        • Enough is Enough 1.4.4.1

          Strange comment BG.

          A government without the Green Party will be a disaster.

  2. Alan 2

    the fact that Winston is not speaking directly with the greens would seem to indicate that.

  3. Cinny 3

    Two more sleeps to go 😀 and the speculation continues via hand picked soundbites from the media designed to put us all on edge and keep us visiting their websites.

    Meanwhile… has anyone noticed the cost of fuel lately. Around here there is up to a 15cent difference between petrol stations located less than 1km away from each other.

    So much for judith doing something about it, that was all for show me thinks. national kept sowing seeds of distrust re tax during the election, pointing fingers at other parties, and all the while they were costing raising fuel tax (again) themselves.

    I want a government I can trust, not a bunch of liars that will say anything to stay in power.

    This from newsroom…

    “Before the election Labour announced it would, if elected, introduce a 10 cent regional fuel tax in Auckland to help meet transport costs, and suggested the Government was itself already modelling a nationwide fuel tax increase to pay for its new motorways.

    National denied this, saying there were no plans for a fuel tax and pointing the finger at Labour as the party planning to raise taxes.

    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/10/09/52342/government-investigating-fuel-tax-hike

    But, according to documents released to the Greens under the Official Information Act, the Government appears to have at least been considering the possibility.”

    • ianmac 3.1

      Yes Cinny. Just been reading that and the hypocrisy of National regarding fuel tax is so typical. Especially since fuel tax for Auckland was ruled out so definitively over the last 5+ years.

      • Cinny 3.1.1

        Yes national said over and over again that a regional fuel tax can’t be done during the election cycle. Yet they were investigating doing it anyway.

        • ianmac 3.1.1.1

          Cinny. What do you think of Newsroom? I can’t detect overall bias and the items seem kosher. Not sure how it is financed but it is usual to follow the money???

          Partners:Kiwibank, Chorus, Holden, Bell Gully, Victoria University and Auckland University.

          https://www.newsroom.co.nz/

          • Cinny 3.1.1.1.1

            Ian, I’ve really been enjoying what newsroom has been producing, and how generally well researched their articles are. It makes a difference from the usual dribble

            Their partners are interesting, I don’t mind seeing their ad’s, at least they don’t start blarring audio etc like other online news outfits.

            I think Newsroom has provided us with some valuable insight and information and they haven’t even been going that long. Every morning around 7am I go and check out their articles, long may that continue.

            “Newsroom funds its journalism in three ways – subscriptions to our Newsroom Pro service, voluntary donations via Press Patron, and corporate sponsorship.

            Corporate sponsorship is our biggest source of revenue and as part of these arrangements, Newsroom produces video content for our sponsors.

            We do this using the same storytelling techniques we apply to our day-to-day reporting. However, this content is not independent and is made in conjunction with the sponsor.

            The stories are produced with the same care and attention we give our journalism and we hope you find them interesting and informative.”

            • ianmac 3.1.1.1.1.1

              Yes. Newsroom is my first reading for the day too but I am too easily persuaded by a good well written column. So I have to take care.

        • tc 3.1.1.2

          How churlish, all they need to do is look at the one that Blinglish and Shonky abolished which Clark n Cullen had put in place to fund akl public transport.

          Naturally the MSM will not call it like it is, hypocracy and deception.

  4. Andre 4

    Interesting. Gorsuch might be such an obnoxious prat he ends up giving other conservative justices a nudge towards the centre.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2017/10/08/politics/neil-gorsuch-john-roberts-rivalry/index.html

  5. Carolyn_nth 5

    gender and climate change:

    Women tend to use more low carbon modes to get around (walking, public transport) than men, who are more wedded to their cars. (based on overseas studies)

    • Robert Guyton 5.1

      And they burp less; men! We’re just big greenhouse gas emitters and there’s nothing can be done about it.

    • Gabby 5.2

      Walking around in my flash made-by-children high air miles shoes, smirking through my animal tested foundation, feeling ever so virtuous.

  6. tc 6

    Wales are not going to Russia for the world cup, along with Scotland they get summer off. With their luck they’ll probably get Italy in the playoffs.

    12.30 tomorrow and the Sth American final group games commence to see who NZ face in 5th place.

    • mauī 6.1

      I think we’ll be lucky if we make the World Cup. We’ve got a great core of talented players like Rojas, Thomas, Wood, Reid, Barbarouses, but some of the other selections are perplexing. Also it looks like our game plan is constantly being revised each game and that can’t be good for cohesion.

  7. Smellpir 7

    I wonder if someone could arrange a sweepstake among the political punditocracy as to what the outcome might be. Get every one of them to write down their predicted result in a sealed envelope on Wednesday night and submit them to a neutral arbitrator.
    That way, when we open our Friday newspapers, we’ll avoid the mendacious spectacle of around 85% of them writing pieces saying: ‘All along I was convinced that Winston would go with [fill in blank]. It was clear from day one which way he was heading…’.

  8. Chart of the Day: Millennials Really Have Taken It On the Chin

    Basically, though, they’re worse off than pretty much every other generation. And this doesn’t even count the higher cost of both housing and education¹ since 1974, which obviously affects young adults more than other age groups.

    US data of course but I suspect that we’d see the same thing here.

  9. greywarshark 9

    This from No Right Turn. http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2017/10/bigot-nation.html

    The United States voted in the UN against condemning the death penalty for same sex acts and other rigid bans imposed by hateful groups.

  10. Ad 10

    Useful reflections from the British Green Party on how to avoid annihilation by being more picky about who they “stand aside” for, and who they form alliances with:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/09/green-party-rethinks-strategy-after-split-on-electoral-alliances

  11. JanM 11

    Oh hell! Winston has just said that his decision will cause ‘anguish’ to some. Somehow I see ‘anguish’ as being for the left, compared to the right who to me align more accurately with feelings of anger

  12. ianmac 12

    Thank Goodness that we have the clever Richard Prebble to guide us:
    “Bill English and Jacinda Ardern have already failed the 80 per cent of New Zealanders who voted for the major parties. All because they refuse to phone each other.

    The tail is wagging the dog.

    So the first thing Bill English should do is start being a leader.

    Pick up the phone. Ring up Jacinda and say: Let’s set some sensible rules for any coalition.”

    It is what you do when you sense that you are losing ground.
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11931472

  13. Ed 13

    The media still gibbering away about National and Greens,
    Powerful people want this message heard a lot.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11931383

  14. tracey 14

    Why are so many fresh beans not fresh?

  15. Ed 15

    The police were ‘concerned’ protesters against arms industry were ‘disrupting traffic’.

    Pity they aren’t concerned that the army industry they are protecting is responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths worldwide.

    In Yemen
    in Palestine
    In Syria
    In Iraq
    In Myanmar
    In Congo
    In Libya
    In Ukraine
    …….

    Still traffic disruption is a serious issue.

  16. Jeepers just drove down to hanmer – roadworks every 5 – 10ks. So much traffic, trucks – i shudder to think about summer. Hope the Kaikòura route sorted soon.

    • tracey 16.1

      “roadworks every 5 – 10ks. So much traffic, trucks – i shudder to think about summer” Same as last summer I suspect.

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