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Open mike 10/11/2013

Written By: - Date published: 7:20 am, November 10th, 2013 - 110 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:


Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose. The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy). Step right up to the mike…

110 comments on “Open mike 10/11/2013”

  1. idlegus 1

    a week later judith collins justice minister finally says something, its gotta be the shortest ‘opinion piece’ ever, but it is clear & to the point. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11154485

    & also the herald reporting that tamahere is friends of one of the boys step father. but i may as well copy & paste collins entire piece, its very short…

    “I’ve never been a big fan of short skirts. With our robust Kiwi figures, they’re best left to super models. So, I’ve been interested to hear a couple of middle-aged males commenting on what these fashion choices mean. What’s the scantily-dressed girl trying to say, they ask.

    Well, for a start, John and Willie, they’re not dressing for you. They’re not even dressing for teen boys. Girls dress for other girls. They dress to fit in. They dress to be part of a group. They want to be respected and they want to be liked. They want to be beautiful. They dress to impress. They copy their celebrity idols. These might well be fashion crimes, but short skirts and cleavage don’t signal a willingness to be victimised.

    New Zealand is internationally rated as one of the best countries to be a woman. This year, we celebrated 120 years of women winning the right to vote.

    With that goes the right to not be abused.”

    • North 1.1

      Idlegus – from your comment on “Will JT be a Labour MP ? – “…….. & kerre mcivor has written an awesome opinion piece too.”

      Will JT be a Labour MP?

      Awesome ? Really ? Pretty routine in my book. See below.

      • idlegus 1.1.1

        i guess, it depends what you are concentrating on. i stand by my comment, she writes about the boys living in a ‘fantasy world’ & i think that kinda sums it up. sure, i agree with what you said as well, but it just didnt stick out, for me. fair enough. i dont wanna fight.

        • North

          Agreed Idlegus. I raise a seeming sub-point as an allusion to the actual main point which is the moral and physical cruelty which we as a society employ against our fellows over a very broad spectrum, and indeed are encouraged in that by so much and so many around us.

          “Opinion” the likes of that from Kerre McIvor is now getting up my nose, particularly at this point in the whole issue. It adds nothing. As I type I note the panel on the right of my screen. From The Daily Blog – http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/11/10/the-sadness-anger-of-roast-busters/

          “I’m not entirely sure what I can say about the Roast Busters that probably hasn’t already been said……..”

          • idlegus

            fair enough, i agree with you. im finding myself arguing a lot with my fellow lefties, its really interesting, & they tend to be on these ‘finer’ points. but i guess peeling the scab of this ugly part of nz society is going to bring out some raw emotion & rage & despair.

    • Chooky 1.2

      +100 idlegus

      “New Zealand is internationally rated as one of the best countries to be a woman. This year, we celebrated 120 years of women winning the right to vote.

      With that goes the right to not be abused.”

      …..and good on Collins !. ….Actually there are rapists, and those who support a culture of rape and blaming the victim on the Left and the Right of the political spectrum….. and it is an international issue and very difficult to deal with in many instances..

      eg…case in point; economist Dominique Strauss-Kahn..( ex IMF head) and .the darling of the French Left who was at one stage mooted to be next French Socialist President….for years it seems he got away with rape despite the accusations of women



  2. North 2

    Mrs Kerrie McIvor in the Herald this morning in an otherwise routine denunciation of we know whom:

    “(one of the named males) has lost his job – to be honest, I’m amazed he had one – ………”

    By which Mrs Kerrie McIvor reveals her gut belief that joblessness reflects at the least personal culpability, if not moral turpitude and worthlessness. And that the opposite prospect, viz. being employed and in the mainstream reflects good character and a life absent of cruelty to others.

    Good Old Mrs Kerrie McIvor what.

  3. chris73 3


    – I have to say I don’t feel a great deal of sympathy for them because the sympathy I do have is going towards the victims

    • idlegus 3.1

      after leaving the rape club page up for 2 or so years, now the police are actively trying to shut down all the vigilante pages, & yet the rape club page is back up again with over 2000 likes. i thought about this, if a young man stupefies a young woman with alcohol &/or drugs, then sexually assaults her, then brags about it online & names her, then an angry dad or brother or cousin or whatever goes around & beats the young man (& im not advocating violnce!) then didnt the young man ‘ask for it’? & ‘what did he expect’?. especially if the rape club pages are kept up.

      • chris73 3.1.1

        I agree (except I have no problems with advocating violence) that the police have got it really horribly wrong here

  4. chris73 4


    – So parents are unable to look at their kids in comparison to other kids and decide for themselves…right

    I’m sorry that this will get some peoples backs up here but this is just buck passing of parental responsibilities

  5. tricledrown 5

    Cris 73 is that why the US govt is banning trans fats and more juristictions are outlawing sugary sodas.
    Yoi and your personal responsibility crap.
    Major corporates are just like drug pushers but defended by RWNJs you should take personal responsibility C73 for defending these irresposble corporates.
    Funny how all the right whingers
    are praising Jamie Oliver for try ing to change peoples habits of eating corpotatized crap food.
    C73 you are trying to shift the blame gone down to the super market read the labels on the foods that are heavily advertized they are made up of transfats sugar and salt.
    Yoir free market for you no morals just profit while the health system picks up the consequences that your taxes pay for idiot!

    • Ad 5.1

      The Atlantic covers the impending transfat issue well here.


      That, together with Spiering of Fonterra saying Fonterra is a decade behind other producers in environmental sensitivity, tells me what a huge mismatch we have of our view of ourselves as food producers and consumers and the global reality.

      The New Zealand food industry has been lying to us,comprehensively.
      And now the world is telling us we are lying.

    • chris73 5.2

      No, what I’m saying is if your kid is considerably larger than his/her classmates then that should tell you something might be wrong and you shouldn’t have to rely on somebody else to tell you

      It has nothing to do with trans fat, the us govt, sugary drinks it does however have everything to do with parents taking notice of whats happening around them and their kids

      • Tat Loo (CV) 5.2.1

        The fact that supermarkets and fast food stores are full of things which aren’t really food, has to be considered. In the US the mass use of fructose corn syrup as a sweetner has been highly problematic. And of course that’s related to the Federal Gov, eg via the Food Bill and lobbying by the industrial food lobby.

        C73: your approach is weak for several reasons. Parents need the funds and the time to cook full good meals. For many today in this damaged economy, that’s not realistic. Also, why are you asking parents to wait until their children are grossly obese before acting.

        • BM

          You’re such an enabler, it’s unreal.

          The labour party motto – Remember, it’s always someone elses fault.

          • Tat Loo (CV)

            If you don’t want to take the issues seriously, and make no mistake these are non partisan issues, we’ll never make progress around the problems of obesity and chronic ill health.

            Toxic environments make for toxic bodies.

            • BM

              The main issue is that a large group of people are just slack and lazy.

              Presented with two options, they’ll take the option that involves the least amount of work every time.

              1. Cooking = hard work(it’s not)
              2 .Buying fast food or preprocessed food = no work.

              That is the reason why the number two option is so popular, nothing to do with being poor.

              • Tat Loo (CV)

                You’ve only identified one out of multiple issues. Parents know that we are living in a time starved society. For you to try and characterise that as being “slack and lazy” does all parents a major disservice.

                It is worse for poorer working parents who are often working 2, 3, 4 jobs, none of which are rostered to take into account the need to look after the kids.

                Another factor is that near-nutritionless processed products are often far cheaper than the real thing. 2L of Coke vs 2L of milk for example.

                So income also has a real impact.

                • BM

                  I recommend you start a thread on the trade me general board about this topic.

                  Lots and lots of benes, low income people and elderly tend to post there, see how you get on, might be a bit of an eye opener for you.

                  I doubt it would change your opinion as you already seem to know all the answers but anyway it’s always good to hear from the people you supposedly represent, especially for an aspiring politician like yourself.

                  • Tat Loo (CV)

                    I recommend you start a thread on the trade me general board about this topic…it’s always good to hear from the people you supposedly represent, especially for an aspiring politician like yourself.

                    “Trade Me” is not a recognised electorate, mate.

                    I doubt it would change your opinion as you already seem to know all the answers

                    It’s a complex problem, but an important one and it needs to be considered from a lot of different viewpoints.

                    Your concept that its mainly people being “slack and lazy” doesn’t really take us very far.

                  • Tiger Mountain

                    Trade Me? What a waste of anyone’s time. Similar to Kiwiblog comments without the wit and informed insight.

                    The ugly kiwis are very well represented on Trade Me (those that use the forums anyway whenever I have visited).

                • TheContrarian

                  “Another factor is that near-nutritionless processed products are often far cheaper than the real thing. 2L of Coke vs 2L of milk for example.”

                  Someone not being able to afford a basic like milk is tragic but buying coke as a substitute is stupid.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Not stupid but uninformed.

                    It’s the basic problem with the “free-market”. For it to work at anything like what the bloody stupid economists say it will requires that everyone be omniscient.

              • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                Wider income gaps, wider waistbands? An ecological study of obesity and income inequality. Wilkinson et al, 2005, Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health.

                Obesity, diets, and social inequalities. Drewnowski 2010, US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health.

                Get an education, fool.

              • North

                Once again Bowel Motion demonstrates that his personal physical being is inverted. The muck’s expelled from the top.

                Crazy old busybody fool. Puts me in mind of Coronation Street’s Norris. Pejorative pejorative pejorative about those doing it hard on Planet ShonKey Python. Get a life dickhead of the universe.

                • Rogue Trooper

                  yet, Norris thought of himself as the Sartre of Coronation Street.

                  -“If you’re lonely when you’re alone, you’re in bad company”.
                  -(“words are like loaded pistols”).

          • Tim

            “You’re such an enabler, it’s unreal.”

            Well that really depends on what perspective you’re coming from and what your agenda is.
            For you, it’s quite obviously one where individualism is God – hence the whole ‘personal responsibility’ routine (mantra).
            For others, the overall well-being of community is seen as a greater concern.
            But that’s OoooooK BM – I’ve no doubt you’re considerably richer than me, considerably more intelligent, and you more than likely come with a larger penis.

        • chris73

          Tat Loo (CV): Stop trying to change the subject, this is about NZ kids and families not lobbying in the USA.

          “Parents need the funds and the time to cook full good meals. For many today in this damaged economy, that’s not realistic.”

          – Actually it is, there are numerous budget meals/quick meal sites out there (and I’m sure there are other service providers that can provide the same kind of information) and they’re cheaper then buying takeaways (in my experience anyway)

          “Also, why are you asking parents to wait until their children are grossly obese before acting.”

          – I’m not, I asking why parents can’t decide for themselves that theres a problem by using their own eyes and comparing their kids to others in the same classes/age group

          • Tat Loo (CV)

            I think you make some good points, chris73; parental responsibility is crucial in these matters.

            Societal responsibility requires taking a broader view however, and recognising that insufficient pay and precarious/irregular part time work and trying to hold down multiple jobs makes it much harder (though often not thoroughly impossible) for relatively healthy home cooking.

            Clearing some of the shit off supermarket shelves and making fresh food cheaper would also be helpful.

            • One Anonymous Knucklehead

              Looks very much like scapegoating to me. Making supermarkets the whipping boy for a wider societal failure won’t solve the problem because the problem is our increasingly low-wage economy.

              • Tat Loo (CV)

                Making supermarkets the whipping boy for a wider societal failure won’t solve the problem

                You gotta start somewhere mate. And the place where 95% of families get 95% of their food seems sensible.

                because the problem is our increasingly low-wage economy.

                OAK that is also true, but it’s not the whole picture. The real issue is that of food affordability and low wages are one big aspect of that, but not the only aspect.

            • chris73

              Societal responsibility requires taking a broader view however, and recognising that insufficient pay and precarious/irregular part time work and trying to hold down multiple jobs makes it much harder (though often not thoroughly impossible) for relatively healthy home cooking.

              – I concede that irregular working hours are a major pain in the butt especially when trying to plan things out, like meals but I’d suggest thats where older kids come into play

              I certainly remember growing up and friends from large families had responsibilities at home like starting the evening meal and whatnot

              Clearing some of the shit off supermarket shelves and making fresh food cheaper would also be helpful.

              – Do you think that would really help? I’m meaning a family thats used to eating crappy food (which tastes really good) isn’t suddenly going to start a healthy vegetable-based diet anytime soon even if the price of fruit and vegetables are dropped

              • One Anonymous Knucklehead


                “Have larger families, poor people, then you’ll be able to find more time to cook, and why are you having children you can’t afford you ferals shouldn’t be allowed to breed for a business I pay too much tax as it is abolish the minimum wage and the dole that’ll teach them.”


                • chris73

                  Why do you and the rest of the lefties always try to change the narrative?

                  Chances are they already have large families so they may as well utilise them as best they can

                  Whether or not they should have large families in the first place is different arguement entirely so stick to the points at hand or start a new thread

                  • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                    Well, I think the things you reckon are trite and tiresome and self-contradictory and broken and fucked, and I’ve cited the information that serious players with actual responsibilities (in this case, doctors of medicine) provide us, and still here you are leaking from your gut, so why shouldn’t I take the piss out of you?

                    Your “narrative” is bullshit, your arguments are crap, and your facts aren’t facts. Stop whining.

                    • chris73

                      No what you’re doing is trying to change what the subject is about to suit what you think because you’re unable to come up with any reasonable of your own so you try to hijack thread

                    • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                      The thread is about obesity, cretin. Your assertions on the topic don’t hold water because you made them up, as any serious reading on the subject reveals.

                      I gave you “reasonable” by quoting Wilkinson and Drenowski up the page, as anyone who can “scroll up” can see.

                      Stop being such a cry baby and move on.

            • infused

              Fresh food is cheap – if you don’t buy it from the supermarket.

              • TheContrarian

                True. At the Wellington Sunday Market you can get quite a substantial amount of vege for $10.

  6. Morrissey 6

    No. 33: Superintendent Bill Searle

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    “I think what’s happened here is the police officers have done their very best….”

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    —-Waitemata District Commander Superintendent Bill Searle, 7 November 2013

    More hopeless, hapless or criminal liars….
    No. 32 Sonny-Bill Williams: “It’s good to get the win over Papua-New Guinea, a strong Papua-New Guinea side, aahhhh….”
    No. 31 John Palino: “Suggestions that I am somehow orchestrating some grand right-wing conspiracy to unseat Len after the election are so wrong…”
    No. 30 Alan Dershowitz: “I will give $10,000 to the PLO if you can find a historical fact in my book that you can prove to be false.”
    No. 29 John Banks: “I have nothing to hide and nothing to fear. And never, ever would I ever knowingly sign a false electoral return. Never ever would I ever.”

    No. 28 John Kerry: “…we are especially sensitive, Chuck and I, to never again asking any member of Congress to take a vote on faulty intelligence.”
No. 27 Lyse Doucet: “I am there for those without a voice.”
No. 26 Sam Wallace: “So here we are—Otahuhu. It’s just a great place to be, really.”

    No. 25 Margaret Thatcher: “…no British government involvement of any kind…with Khmer Rouge…”

    No. 24 John Key: “…at the end of the day I, like most New Zealanders, value the role of the fourth estate…”

No. 23 Jay Carney: “…expel Mr Snowden back to the U.S. to face justice…”

No. 22 Mike Bush: “Bruce Hutton had integrity beyond reproach.”

No. 21 Tim Groser: “I think the relationship is genuinely in outstanding form.”

No. 20 John Key: “But if the question is do we use the United States or one of our other partners to circumvent New Zealand law then the answer is categorically no.”

No. 19 Matthew Hooton: “It is ridiculous to say that unions deliver higher wages! They DON’T!”

    No. 18 Ant Strachan: “The All Blacks won the RWC 2011 because of outstanding defence!”

    No. 17 Stephen Franks: “Peter has been such a level-headed, safe pair of hands.”

    No. 16 Phil Kafcaloudes: “Tony Abbott…hasn’t made any mistakes over the past eighteen months.”

    No. 15 Donald Rumsfeld: “I did not lie… Colin Powell did not lie.”

No. 14 Colin Powell: “a post-9/11 nexus between Iraq and terrorist organizations…connections are now emerging…”
No. 13 Barack Obama: “Simply put, these strikes have saved lives.”

No. 12 U.K. Ministry of Defence: “Protecting the Afghan civilian population is one of ISAF and the UK’s top priorities.”

No. 11 Brendan O’Connor: “Australia’s approach to refugees is compassionate and generous.”

    No. 10 Boris Johnson: “Londoners have… the best police in the world to look after us and keep us safe.”

No. 9 NewstalkZB PR dept: “News you NEED! Fast, fair, accurate!”

No. 8 Simon Bridges: “I don’t mean to duck the question….”

    No. 7 Nigel Morrison: “Quite frankly, they’ve been VERY tough.”

    No. 6 Herald PR dept: “Congratulations—you’re reading New Zealand’s best newspaper.”

    No. 5 Rawdon Christie: “…a FORMIDABLE replacement, it seems, is Claudette Hauiti.”

No. 4 Willie and J.T.: “The X-Factor. Nah, nah, there’s some GREAT talent there!”

No. 3 John Key: “Yeah we hold MPs to a higher standard.”

No. 2 Colin Craig: “Oh, I have a GREAT sense of humour.”

    No. 1 Barack Obama: “Margaret Thatcher was one of the great champions of freedom and liberty.”

    • Tim 6.1

      well plainly “their very best” isn’t good enough – unless they’re pretending they operate in some 3rd world jurisdiction or under some totalitarian regime.
      Maybe they should consider ‘swapsies’ and undertake a Police exchange programme. Maybe Denmark would do us a favour and keep a few of them.
      Better still, just fess up and recognise that quite a few in the job just aren’t up to it, and by retaining them, they’re actually contributing to the fact that there is diminishing confidence in the NZ Police.
      Yesterday?? – day before maybe, BLiP posted something that could have given them cause to realise why that might be.
      I’ve NO DOUBT before too long, there’ll be something like “you [the people] just don’t understand the realities confronting the Pleece Force” from the Chief Apologist (and their own worst enemy) Greg.
      That was/is also the favourite response from one Frank Mainimarama too.

  7. Morrissey 7

    No. 34: Willie Jackson

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    “I thought we’d been sensitive with her yesterday….”

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    —-Willie Jackson, Radio Live, 8 November 2013, commenting on the way he and his partner John “J.T.” Tamihere had verbally attacked a young rape victim on air.

    Have a look at Liars 1 to 33….

    Open mike 10/11/2013

  8. Morrissey 8

    No. 35: Mark Jennings

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    “I think Paul’s a bright guy and he will be able to bring a discipline to his performance….”

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    —-TV3 head of News and Current Affairs, Mark Jennings, talking about the station’s new signing….(wait for it!!!!!!)…. Paul Henry
    Mediawatch, Radio NZ National, Sunday 10 November 2013

    Liars 1 to 34….

    Open mike 10/11/2013

  9. tricledrown 9

    C 73 simplistic crap.
    You try and tell a teenager what to do.
    Sugar and fats are highly addictive.
    So that makes you a pawn of the corporate fat and sugar pushers.
    Everytime society decides to outlaw the foods that are responsible for our obesity ,diabeties heart disease stroke epidemic the right want to protect the pushers of this extremely expensive wave of preventable disease!
    Every option should be used this would savr 100’s of millions of your tax payer’s money.
    Leaving it to the individual is a complete cop ouy if we want change everybody needs to set the example including corporates should take responsibility as well and not shift the cost on to you and me to pay for in my taxes.

    • chris73 9.1

      You try and tell a teenager what to do.

      – If you’d bothered to read the article you’d see its about 4 year olds

      Sugar and fats are highly addictive

      – Translation: “Sugar and fats taste good and I have no will power”

      So that makes you a pawn of the corporate fat and sugar pushers.

      – Translation: Even though chris73s post was about parents not being able to tell for themselves theres a problem with their kids weight I’ll try to turn it into an arguement about corporate food pushers

      Everytime society decides to outlaw the foods that are responsible for our obesity ,diabeties heart disease stroke epidemic the right want to protect the pushers of this extremely expensive wave of preventable disease!

      – Prohibition doesn’t work, has never worked, you like to spout what the USA are doing well then hows their war on drugs working?

      Every option should be used this would savr 100′s of millions of your tax payer’s money.

      – Except for the option of parents taking responsibility apparantly

      Leaving it to the individual is a complete cop ouy if we want change everybody needs to set the example including corporates should take responsibility as well and not shift the cost on to you and me to pay for in my taxes.

      – How is this in anyway relevent to a parent looking at little Jimmy or little Jenny then looking at the kids in the same class and seeing that little Jimmy/Jenny is bigger and fatter then everyone else in the class?

      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 9.1.1

        Yawn. All you’re doing is revealing your own prejudice, Chris73, or perhaps your capacity for mimicry.

        I note you are arguing that poor parenting increases under National, but I don’t expect you understand that.

        • chris73

          Typical reaction from the left really, its never the individuals fault its always the governments fault

          Actually poor parenting probably skyrocket under the fourth Labour government

          • Tat Loo (CV)

            Sugar and fats are highly addictive

            – Translation: “Sugar and fats taste good and I have no will power”

            You’re about 40 years out of date I’m afraid. Research into products like tobacco/cigarettes has revealed a lot about the nature of addictive and habit forming chemicals and how they react on the brain.

            So that makes you a pawn of the corporate fat and sugar pushers.

            It’s crucial that we recognise that industrial food products are deliberately formulated in ways to maximise consumption. Food scientists and food technologists have amassed a wealth of knowledge around how to make their products “more-ish.” And the way that salt, fat and sugar are used in their food formulations is key.

            Typical reaction from the left really, its never the individuals fault its always the governments fault

            Addressing these issues is taking responsibility chris73. It’s also taking responsible action. The amazing thing is that you can’t seem to see this.

            • chris73

              Ok I’ll try again

              This is about a parent looking their own kid then that parent looking at kids of the same age and seeing that their kid is considerably larger then the rest of the kids

              How is it that the parents can’t tell that there is a problem, why does it have to come from somebody else?

              Health officials should be telling the parents of course but how is it getting to that stage

          • One Anonymous Knucklehead

            Yep, I knew you wouldn’t get it.

            • chris73

              No you don’t get it, you want to talk about a different topic thats fine start it up but don’t try to hijack this one

              “The thread is about obesity, cretin. Your assertions on the topic don’t hold water because you made them up, as any serious reading on the subject reveals.”

              – No its not, its about the failure of the parents to recognize obesity in their own kids and relying on someone else to tell them

              – Obesity and its causes is a topic you can start up if you wish but stop trying to hijack what this thread is about

              • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                This thread is about obesity, but unlike you I think we should discuss facts, and you haven’t mentioned a single one, just a load of crap about what you think should happen.

                Get a clue, The World According To Chris73 doesn’t exist, and if it did no-one would read it.

                • chris73

                  I shouldn’t really have to argue about what this thread is about since I started it but for your benefit I’ll try again:

                  “Its about the failure of the parents to recognize obesity in their own kids and relying on someone else to tell them”

                  “Obesity and its causes is a topic you can start up if you wish but stop trying to hijack what this thread is about”

                  • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                    So, according to you, obesity is caused by poor parenting, but the causes of obesity are off topic. Laughing at you very much, much?

                    • chris73

                      I’ll admit you are doing a fine job trolling and/or misdirection but whatever you say it doesn’t change what the thread I started is about

                    • One Anonymous Knucklehead

                      “…the failure of the parents to recognize obesity in their own kids…”

                      Which you have failed to establish even exists outside of the multitude of things you reckon. Even if it is a significant factor (it isn’t), what makes you think it isn’t another symptom of the wider malaise, or to put it another way, what makes you think poor parenting isn’t worsened by inequality?

                      Other than your blind prejudice, that is?

                      The reason you want to concentrate on “poor parenting”, by the way, is so that you can wash your hands of the problem, Pontius.

                • Rogue Trooper

                  yet The Water- Method Man has been read in many a W.C 😀

  10. Draco T Bastard 10

    Rethinking Economic Growth

    When these economists started to study trends in ISEW / GPI and compared them with GDP, they noticed something interesting. In developed countries GDP has grown more or less continuously in the last 50 years, but ISEW / GPI has not. What happens in almost every case is that ISEW / GPI increases until around 1970-1980, then stalls or begins to decline.

    Prior to the development of the ISEW / GPI measures, Max-Neef and colleagues had proposed the “Threshold Hypothesis”, stating that:

    “In every society there is a period in which economic growth contributes to an improvement of the quality of life, but only up to a point, the threshold point, beyond which if there is more economic growth, quality of life may begin to deteriorate.”

    The plots linked from Friends of the Earth seem to provide evidence supportive of this statement, assuming that ISEW / GPI is a sufficiently representative metric of human quality of life.

    An interesting observation.

  11. Sanctuary 11

    Want evidence our binge drinking booze culture is descending us as a nation into a Hogarthia Gin Lane?

    This morning between 10am and 10.30am I went to three places. All had what were almost certainly alcohol related staffing issues (guy actually told me he still to drunk to work, was waiting for someone else to come to work before opening, girl at the bakery was pale, red eyed and barely able to communicate, third place unable to serve me because “several staff have failed to come in”).

    • TheContrarian 11.1

      Have you never been hungover at work?

    • infused 11.2

      Blame the vikings.

    • Saarbo 11.3

      Another issue Sanctuary is Sunday is a bugger of a day to expect people to work. Is there any research that shows young people are drinking more than say we did in the 80’s and 90’s…because I was guaranteed to be hung over on Sunday when I was young….never saw it as a problem though.

    • Tat Loo (CV) 11.4

      Want evidence our binge drinking booze culture is descending us as a nation into a Hogarthia Gin Lane?

      I commented last night on OM that I saw a fully comatose and unresponsive woman dragged out of the pub toilets as dead weight, by staff. She appeared to be covered in vomit and urine. Emergency services were called. I presume it was alcohol poisoning but it could have been a mix of any number of things.

      I note that the pub staff were very careful to deposit her well away from the pub premises, and in front of a neighbouring shop front instead.

      It’s all very wrong.

      • Chooky 11.4.1

        @Tat CV ( also Saarbo, Contrarian,,Sanctuary ,infused etc )on drunkenness and the drunk woman

        …my first feeling about the drunken comatose woman is that it is shockingly sad….and I wonder why she let herself get into such a state…and I never would have seen it in my youth…..certainly not a woman…but then I think of other instances of our past NZ drink history …eg

        …my flatmate in the ’70s…a chemistry PhD student trying to decide how one would deal with nuclear waste by encasing it in glass….regularly every Saturday night would go off to town and come home at about 3am and spend the next few hours retching and vomiting into the bathroom basin..regularly I was woken by this noise …..I found it rather funny….the rest of the time he didn’t drink and was stone cold sober and very nerdy..and spent his life in the university library…..for him it was like a Saturday night purging

        ….a great uncle , a very cheerful , joking guy, a very experienced mountaineer before the war who wanted to climb in the Himalaya ( and incidentally in WWII as a navigator, shot down over Germany and spent the rest of the war in a camp and survived the Long March)… who in the 1930s as a youth used to drink a bit….and told us how they all rushed out of the local country pub so as not to get caught by the police and got tangled in a low hanging clothes lline….he was so drunk he lay down and someone ran over him in their old car….didnt seem to do him any damage but I guess cars werent so low slung then as they are today…he never was an alcoholic or seemed to have a drinking problem while I knew him…and was still skiing into his 80s….but he did love his home brew and a beer with anyone who wanted

        ….I can think of others who clearly did have drinking problems …..and used alcohol to blot out painful past experiences …or they were simply addicted to alcohol and just couldnt stop

        Conclusion….someone needs to do a non judgmental social history, phenomenology of drunkenness….and the views of drunks and their reasons and escapades…it needs to be set in context of other human activities eg computer gaming addictions, other drug use , other recreations, availability of alcohol, societal attitudes,….the general state of society(….which I feel is rather grim for young people at the moment…but it has been so in the past also)…womens lib on changing attitudes to females getting drunk …. etc etc

  12. Plan B 12

    Have Labour and The Greens thought about restructuring the Private School Industry. I think restructuring may help. But I have a few questions-
    1. Are private schools run as charities?
    2. Do private schools pay tax?
    3. Why do the people of New Zealand subsidize Private Schools- how much is this subsidy
    4. What is the social cost of such a separation of New Zealand Children from one another
    5. Should funding per child in the Public sector match that in the Private Schools?

    The left seems to always give a free pass to entrenched interests of the right and I do not understand why.

    To my mind real progress requires a restructuring of entities that entrench privilege from birth. So why not use the language of the right to do it. If we do there is nothing they can do about it.

    If a school is a charity- then either it becomes a business or it actually has to act as a charity- to my mind that would mean that places in the school would be free and entrance would be by ballot

    The government would no longer subsidies the businesses

    Actually this would not go far enough – I wonder what else is possible

    • marsman 12.1

      You are absolutely right Plan B. It seems that Private School fees are classed as donations and therefor tax deductible i.e. the Parent pays nothing towards the Govt’s Education spending but the Govt.gives Private Schools money anyway. Is this yet another ripoff of the poor by the rich?
      Private Hospitals, are they a similar kind of ripoff?
      Are Trade Unions taxed on the members’ contributions? Is the Business Round Table taxed on it’s members’ contributions?

  13. greywarbler 13

    I wonder if there is a list of requests for the Nov 16 walk with new protections to prevent more sexual victims from those anxious and angry about the situation at present? It would be a lasting thing to have a general list of actions aimed at preventing it occurring again.

    If one or various lists could be prepared and copied around the country and printed on coloured paper that matched the ribbons adopted by various groups, teal or red, for two that are concerned,
    it would make a colourful visual symbolic effect if each walker carried one and held it up. And a statement of lasting value about the intent of the walk.

  14. amirite 14

    Gower @ Twitter: 3 News-Reid Research poll tonight… Someone takes a hit, and there’s a big mover at their expense.
    Dunne is on 0.1. That means one person in the 1000 we called will vote for him.

    And this article on 3 news website:
    Key sees many potential replacements


    And then this on stuff:
    Public debt climbs by $27m a day


  15. Rhinocrates 15

    I’m reposting this from another thread, because it’s very threatening.

    Look out – the pigs are trying tracking their critics.

    Marshall just tried to call me personally at my own home. I hung up immediately when he identified himself.

    Maybe he had naive honourable motives… but if that were the case, it’s too little, too late.

    I find it personally disturbing that he can find out who I am and where I am. It’s intimidating.

    They’re definitely watching you. This is really scary.

    • Rhinocrates 15.1

      I’d just like to repeat that – the man tried to intimidate me in MY OWN HOME!

      You are next.

      • just saying 15.1.1

        Calling LPrent,
        I thought no-one other than you and the other authors could access to our info from this site?
        The police aren’t allowed to hack, surely?

      • just saying 15.1.2

        Have you got someone there, Rhinocrates?

        edit I mean with you in the house. I would feel extremely intimidated

        • Rhinocrates

          No I don’t, I live alone. I’m autistic, so I have very painful difficulty sharing my space with anyone else or receiving unsolicited communication.

          Possibly Marshall is a good man and means well, but he’s made it clear that he’s weak and insensitive at best.

          He scared me.

          You have to remember this about him: he rose up through the police ranks, he knew their culture, he knew what was going on. He did nothing.

          • just saying

            How dare he?

          • weka

            Rhinocrates, do you want to share how he knows you? Are you saying it’s via your comments on the standard? Or somewhere else in your life? Don’t answer that if it makes you more vulnerable.

            • Rhinocrates

              I have no idea. All I know is that he knows who my real name and where I live and contacted me to make that clear.

              Again, let me say this: You are next.

              • Rogue Trooper

                wonder if they’ll send three or four cars like last time. sigh. 😎

              • Tat Loo (CV)

                Ahhhhh, crap. Can I presume that this is what Russell Brown is tweeting about vis a vis Public Address? I would like to think if Marshall contacted you personally on a weekend it was with good intentions.

                • weka

                  Sorry that has happened R. Are you sure it was him? (it’s a Sunday after all). Could it have been a prank or someone impersonating him?

                  I haven’t been following your comments on PA so don’t know the context over there.

                  Also, it’s important to know if he was connecting your RL details to things you are saying online under a pseudonym, I didn’t quite follow that.

                  • Rhinocrates

                    They named me in a message on my private land line. They have access to personal information and wanted to let me know it. They know who I am, they know where I live, they know that I’ve commented on police rape culture and want to let me know that.

                • Anne

                  The point is Tat: how did he get rhino’s personal information?

                  Possible scenario:
                  Hi Fletch,
                  Got a personal favour to ask of you. Could you get one of your techo boffins to check out the details of rhinocrates……… And there’s a few others to follow too. Will get back to you on them.

                  Is this why John Key wanted to pass his GCSB Bill? So that so-called ‘enemies of the state’ (read National Party) could be spied on without warrants?

                • North

                  What is there to say that it MUST have been with good intentions ? If in fact it wasn’t a mischievous prank by some idiot who knows Rhino.

              • Pascal's bookie

                That is appalling news Rhino.

  16. Tat Loo (CV) 16

    12 year old pushes back against North Carolina’s legislation to depress youth voter turnout

    Extremely impressive…


    • Draco T Bastard 16.1

      Get similar BS from the conservatives here as well.


      I’ve seen others where conservatives have railed against MMP and proportional voting because it confuses the voters. All I ever see though is them trying to dismantle democracy first by getting rid of proportional voting.

      • Tat Loo (CV) 16.1.1

        Labour has to greatly strengthen the MMP system. IIRC Conference agreed to put through most of the electoral recommendations that Collins blew off.

        The % threshold needs to be dropped to 3.0% or 3.5% though…4% is still too high.

  17. FYI

    STOP the Sky City ‘money-laundering’ Bill!

    The New Zealand International Convention Centre Bill has completed its ‘committee’ stage, and is now due for its ‘third hearing’, when the NZ Parliament resumes on Tuesday 12 November 2013.

    There has been effectively NO ‘due diligence’ on the increased risk of money-laundering, (or organised crime) arising from this New Zealand International Convention Centre Bill, although risks were clearly spelled out in this Regulatory Impact Statement:

    Click to access NZICC-RIS-June-2013.pdf

    (See paras 95 – 111 )

    Potential risk of money laundering

    95 Cash intensive industries such as casinos are attractive to money laundering activity. New Zealand’s National Risk Assessment 2010 assessed casinos as presenting moderate to high risk of money laundering.

    For this reason, casinos (including all SkyCity casinos) are subject to the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of
    Terrorism Act 2009 (the AML/CFT Act), which comes into force on 30 June 2013.

    I am awaiting OIA replies from both Prime Minister John Key and Minister of Economic Development Steven Joyce on this matter.

    Until ‘due diligence’ has been carried out, in a proper way, on the increased risk of money-laundering arising from the New Zealand International Convention Centre Bill, in my considered opinion, as a proven ‘anti-corruption’ campaigner – then the passage of this legislation must be stayed – FORTHWITH.

    6 November 2013

    Open Letter /OIA request to the Minister of Economic Development Steven Joyce: “Why are you continuing with the International Convention Centre (Sky City money-laundering) Bill?

    Dear Minister,

    I note that the International Convention Centre Bill is now at the Committee Stage: on today’s Parliamentary Order Paper:

    Please provide the following information which confirms:

    1) That you have considered the following OIA reply from OFCANZ, which shows that they have not done any ‘due diligence’ on the increased risk of money-laundering with the International Convention Centre Bill.

    Click to access SKY-CITY-OFCANZ-OIA-REPLY-NO-DUE-DLIGENCE-RE-MONEY-LAUNDERING-bright-penny-06-c211711-2-sent-reply.pdf

    2) That you as the Minister of Economic Development, are knowingly and willingly, continuing to push the International Convention Centre Bill.through Parliament, although this OIA reply from OFCANZ, shows that they have not done any ‘due diligence’ on the increased risk of money-laundering, as outlined in the following Regulatory Impact Statement.

    Click to access NZICC-RIS-June-2013.pdf

    (See paras 95 – 111 )

    Potential risk of money laundering

    95 Cash intensive industries such as casinos are attractive to money laundering activity. New Zealand’s National Risk Assessment 2010 assessed casinos as presenting moderate to high risk of money laundering.

    For this reason, casinos (including all SkyCity casinos) are subject to the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of
    Terrorism Act 2009 (the AML/CFT Act), which comes into force on 30 June 2013.
    Yours sincerely,
    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption / anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’
    2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate




  18. bill maher rips into the likes of paula bennett/hypocritical-christians..


    ..and he makes a decent meal of it..

    ..phillip ure..

  19. Rogue Trooper 19

    Nat- 46 down 3.2
    Labour- 32.2 up 1.2
    Green- 10.4 down 1.6
    Mana 1.3 up 1.1 (another MP)

    and, sigh,
    Conservatives 2.8 up 1.7.

    Gower “Cunliffe has failed to grow the Left vote” (he’s responsible for that, don’t you know).

    • Te Reo Putake 19.1

      The headline below gets it right:


      I’d say this poll strongly suggests Colin Craig is Key’s only hope. Do they have tea shops in Albany?

      • Anne 19.1.1

        How could anyone vote for that drip, Colin Craig. He looks like a drip, he acts like a drip, his clothes are drippy and he is a drip.

        • bad12

          Winston Peters tho could screw the loose nut back onto the wheel that is Colin Craig simply by standing in the same electoral seat as the God botherer…

      • gobsmacked 19.1.2

        So either – the Fairfax poll was a joke, as many of us said

        or …

        National have lost 5% in a couple of weeks.

        Sorry Key-fans, you can’t have both. Which one would you like?

        • Tat Loo (CV)

          Given that this poll probably overestimates National’s likely election result, their real no. is probably only 42% or 43%. That puts them 4 MPs down. Will the Conservatives fill the gap? I don’t think so…

    • bad12 19.2

      Ah yes the Reid Research/TV3 poll, for that bloke Armstrong to say in print in the National Party NZ Herald that the Reid is known to ask leading questions which ‘skew’ the resulting poll must just about make this the most unreliable of polling instruments,

      Reid is the leader of the pack when it comes to the National Governing alone roar from the sidelines and the fact that it has had that Party polling 49% says a lot for wishful thinking but not very much about accuracy,

      Can Slippery’s Government escape the noose in November 2014 locked in the loving embrace of Colin Craig’s little band of Conservative Christian’s,(oh sorry as an electoral convenience Colin has dropped any pretense of christianity from His little political vehicle), anything of course is possible in politics, just look at the fact that John Banks is an MP and not an inmate,

      Craig can be said to have benefited mightily from what was in essence a free advertising campaign across a number of mass media outlets in the week leading up to and including Labour weekend with the National Party calling in favors from editors and programers across the media spectrum with Colin Craig stories of little substance but with an intent,(cynical???),by the number crunchers in the National Party to gauge ‘what it would take’ to manufacture Craig and His gang of Christian Conservatives into a coalition partner,

      i would read this poll as a siren call to the waverers among the soft National vote, the call being look we have a coalition partner don’t panic,

      i also have a personal message for those who manipulated this little gem into existence, the day Reid admits in a public poll that Hone Harawira’s Mana Party will be back in the next Parliament with 2 and possibly 3 MP’s on published numbers without having an ulterior motive will be the day i cease to comment on polls, yes i see the motive and no it won’t sway those of us who are watching the Green Party vote with every intention of tactically voting for either that Party or the Mana Party…

  20. karol 20

    Jan Logie had her passport confiscated by Sri Lankan officials. That’s pretty appalling.

    Logie was investigating human rights abuses with an Australian and a Malaysian MP.

    She is due to fly back to New Zealand in the early hours of tomorrow.

    But immigration officials seized her passport and shut down a press conference that was due to take place in Colombo this morning, she confirmed in a text message to Fairfax this afternoon.

    It is also unlikely she will be permitted to meet with Abraham Sumanthiran, a prominent human rights lawyer and MP for the Tamil National Alliance.

  21. Naturesong 21

    Usual misleading heald headline.
    Study busts beneficiary myth
    We know that the “beneficiaries are lazy” type memes are prevelant during National governments are wrong.
    This study relates to spinal injuries and finds that ” … those with a spinal cord injury who are covered by ACC are more likely to get back to work.”

    No surprise there.

    Better detail here: http://www.voxy.co.nz/health/no-acc-cover-hinders-spinal-injury-recovery-study/5/173429

    The group previously did a similar study looking at stroke victems, and surprise, same results. Those given support were able to return to work quicker and in greater numbers than those who received no support.

    Anyone know of other studies in this vein?

    I’ve had to rely on welfare three times (twice due to unemployment, once due to injury), I really get sick of the lazy meme.
    It’s wrong, and the acceptance of it as a truth poisons the debate around welfare and employment

  22. FYI

    John Banks vs Auckland District Court & Solicitor-General

    Minute of J Heath

    CIV 2013 – 404 – 4645

    BETWEEN John Archibald Banks


    AND Auckland District Court

    First Respondent


    Second Respondent



    Kind regards

    Penny Bright

  23. Tracey 23

    To those commenting on obesity and to bm in particular. Many women who were raped or otherwise sexually abused over eat. Some to hide from me so they protect themselves subconsciously by becoming what they think is fat and ugly…. by eating to feel better when depression or anxiety strikes. So dont assume all obese people are simply fat and lazy as bm puts it. With 1-3 girls sexually abused it may be a hidden factor.

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  • New Board appointed at Stats NZ
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  • New Principal Environment Judge
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    6 days ago
  • Digital connectivity boost for urban marae
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  • Govt increases assistance to drought-stricken Hawke’s Bay farmers
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  • Investment in New Zealand’s history
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    7 days ago
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  • $14.7m for jobs training and education
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  • Finance Minister’s Budget 2020 Budget Speech
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    2 weeks ago